Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 5 March 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Equality
Safety and Well-being of Children Online: Discussion (resumed)
2:00 am
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Good morning to all our witnesses. I apologise for the delay. We had a technical difficulty this morning, but we are back on track now.
From the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO, we are joined by Ms Anne Horan, president, and Mr. David Geary, assistant general secretary. From the Association of Secondary Teachers, Ireland, ASTI, we are joined by Mr. Kieran Christie, general secretary, and Mr. Richard Bell, vice president. From the Irish Primary Principals' Network, IPPN, we are joined by Ms Deirdre Kelly, president, and Mr. Páiric Clerkin, CEO. From the Teachers' Union of Ireland, TUI, we are joined by Ms Laura Conheady, vice president, and Mr. David Duffy, education and research officer. From the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, we are joined by Mr. Paul Crone, director, and Ms Rachel O'Connor, deputy director. From Education Support Centres Ireland, ESCI, we are joined by - and I hope I say his name correctly - Mr. Ultan Mac Mathúna, chair, and Dr. Catherine Doolan, director of Laois Education Support Centre. All the witnesses are welcome.
The purpose of this meeting is to continue our discussion on technology, social media and children, with a focus on safety and well-being. The witnesses will be aware that the committee has already had a number of meetings on this topic with stakeholders. Our engagement in this regard will continue in the coming months.
Before we begin, I have a number of housekeeping matters to go through. In advance of inviting witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them in relation to parliamentary privilege that witnesses and members are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make today to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The witnesses will each be allocated three minutes of speaking time to deliver their opening statements. They can see the clocks under the screens. This will be followed by a question-and-answer session with committee members. We will begin with Ms Horan. We will then hear from Mr. Christie, Ms Kelly, Mr. Duffy, Mr. Crone and Mr. Mac Mathúna in that order.
Ms Anne Horan:
I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to address them on this critically important issue. The INTO represents 54,000 primary school teachers and school leaders across the island of Ireland. At our national congress last year, members expressed profound concern at the scale of children’s access to adult and age-inappropriate content on social media platforms. They highlighted the lack of rigour in age verification systems and the mounting body of evidence linking exposure to harmful online content with poor mental health outcomes for children. As a teacher and educator for many years, and as president of the INTO, I can state clearly that what we are witnessing represents a real and escalating danger to children. We are well past the point where this can be treated as a developing issue. Decisive action on the part of the Government is required.
In January, the INTO convened a high-level online safety round table with leading experts, including Coimisiún na Meán, Webwise, CyberSafeKids and academic specialists in digital safety. That engagement reinforced our view that voluntary approaches have not kept pace with technological change or with the risks now facing children and school communities. Schools are increasingly dealing with the consequences of online harm. Issues that originate outside the school gate are manifesting inside classrooms and are affecting behaviour, learning, relationships and overall well-being. Teachers are often placed at the front line of managing the impact of harm they did not create and do not have the ability to regulate. Online safety is not solely an education issue. It is a whole-of-society challenge requiring co-ordinated action across the Government, regulators, platform providers and civil society.
Teachers, school leaders, women and minority groups are also experiencing disproportionate levels of online abuse and harassment, much of which originates on or is amplified by poorly regulated platforms. The rapid deployment of AI-enabled systems has intensified these risks. These developments undermine safeguarding efforts and place new and unacceptable burdens on schools and teachers. We are calling for this issue to form part of the forthcoming convention on education, given the clear impact of online harm on learning, teaching and school life. Young people must also be central to this conversation. In addition, a national task force should be established to bring together the Government, regulators, educators, parents and young people in order to co-ordinate a coherent national response. Schools require practical support. The INTO is calling for comprehensive guidelines and guardrails to be developed, and properly resourced continuing professional development, CPD, for teachers on these, delivered at whole-school level.
We appreciate the committee’s engagement with this issue and look forward to questions
Mr. Kieran Christie:
On behalf of the ASTI, I welcome the opportunity to address the committee on technology, social media and children’s safety and well-being.
Teachers work every day at the intersection of adolescence, education and digital culture. Technology has enormous potential for learning and inclusion. However, the rapid growth of social media and algorithm-driven platforms presents serious risks for students and teachers. Child safety must be paramount.
Safe, inclusive schools benefit both students and staff. While serious online incidents are not everyday occurrences, their impact can be profound. Recent ASTI research indicates that approximately one in five second-level teachers has experienced work-related cyberbullying. Such abuse undermines professional authority and damages mental health. Teachers’ public-facing roles make them particularly vulnerable to anonymous harassment, defamation and, in rare but deeply distressing cases, image manipulation or threats.
The ASTI has developed a digital rights hub to support members through the provision of preventative advice, reporting pathways and guidance on legal rights. Where possible, issues should be resolved within schools through established anti-bullying policies, using restorative and educational approaches. However, out-of-hours online behaviour frequently spills into the classroom, disrupting learning and well-being. The responsibility for policing harmful content cannot rest solely with schools or parents.
Social media companies must bear meaningful accountability. Informal arrangements, such as expedited reporting channels, are welcome but insufficient. Educational bodies should have trusted flagger recognition across major platforms. Robust enforcement by Coimisiún na Meán under Ireland’s online safety framework and the EU Digital Services Act is essential. We recommend mandatory 24-hour removal of abusive or illegal content involving minors or educators, stronger age verification, transparent moderation decisions and meaningful sanctions for repeated non-compliance.
Schools must remain safe, focused spaces for learning. ASTI supports national guidance restricting mobile phone use during school hours. Phone-free policies reduce cyberbullying, prevent unauthorised recording and improve concentration and social interaction. The "always on" culture fuels anxiety and fatigue for students, while teachers face growing expectations of constant availability. The right to disconnect is critical to a healthy digital ecosystem.
Generative AI presents new risks, including deepfake imagery and the amplification of harmful content. Teachers need systematic, State-funded professional development to respond effectively to rapidly evolving technologies.
Technology should empower young people, not expose them to harm. By combining whole-school preventative approaches, meaningful platform accountability, proportionate legal enforcement and sustained investment in digital literacy, Ireland can create a safer online environment for children and those who educate them. ASTI remains committed to constructive engagement to ensure that our schools remain places of safety, respect and focused learning in the digital age.
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
Our CEO, Mr. Páiric Clerkin, and I are pleased to represent the Irish Primary Principals' Network and primary school leaders today. I am a teaching principal in St. Michael's National School, Cloonacool, Tubbercurry, County Sligo and serve in the role of president of IPPN, which I will do until August 2027. The IPPN operates in the primary and special schools sector, supporting primary school leaders – the principals and deputy principals of more than 3,000 schools. Our role is to empower these school leaders to focus on their core purpose and what they are qualified and skilled to do, namely, the leadership and management of teaching and learning in their schools and supporting every child in that school to thrive. Unlike our post-primary counterparts, more than half of primary school principals and almost every deputy principal teach full-time on top of their leadership and management responsibilities. This is often forgotten and is relevant to today's discussion.
There is evidence from Ireland linking exposure to harmful or inappropriate online content with anxiety and emotional distress in children. A report by Irish safety charity CyberSafeKids found that around one quarter of primary school children, agedbetween eight and 12 years, were "bothered or upset" by harmful online content, including scams, harassment, horror or sexual material and that such exposure was linked in commentary by educators to sleep disruption, anxiety and emotional distress among children.
Most primary schools have policies and procedures in place to prevent or minimise pupils' access to devices and online content during the school day. Online safety is taught as part of the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum in primary schools, where pupils are encouraged to use the Internet responsibly, protect their personal information and recognise online risks. Online safety is also supported through the Webwise programme, which provides age-appropriate resources to help children stay safe and respectful online. However, school-based lessons alone are not sufficient, as many children continue to access online content outside of school hours, where exposure to inappropriate or harmful material still occurs, despite preventative education.
We have submitted the document the IPPN presented to the joint committee on education in 2022, which was on mental health supports in schools. I will not go into details, other than to say that school leaders across Ireland are increasingly concerned about the growing levels of emotional and mental health difficulties among children in primary schools. These challenges present in many ways. The prevalence of these issues is a real concern to school leaders. Boards of management, school leaders, teachers and other staff can only do so much. Teachers and school leaders are not experts. We are not psychologists or mental health professionals, who provide the type of help so many of our pupils need. While we are deeply committed to doing everything in our capacity to support and care for the children entrusted to us, the services that provide mental health support, though excellent when accessible, remain wholly inadequate and under-resourced.
The IPPN is a member of the Children's Rights Alliance and supports the Children's Rights Alliance calls for building crucial new EU wide legislation to require platforms to better regulate harmful material and to criminalise the horrific spread of child sexual abuse material online. In this digital age, we want our children to be safe. We want them to be safe in the physical world and safe online. The end, therefore, is agreed. What is being debated is the means. We hope this committee will help to ensure that the Government introduces robust legislation to protect children from exposure to inappropriate online content, ensuring their safety and well-being, so that every child can grow, learn and thrive in a safe digital environment.
Mr. David Duffy:
The TUI thanks the Cathaoirleach and the committee for this opportunity to make an opening statement on the topic of technology, social media and children. The TUI represents over 22,000 teachers and leaders in post-primary, further and higher education. The TUI is strongly of the view that current usage of technology and social media by young people has benefits. However, there are also significant risks, especially when safeguards are not in place. For example, some young people may be using social media as a place to socialise and interact with new friends. This can work very well if everyone involved is acting in a transparent and honest manner. However, a seeming lack of safeguards means that, in some cases, young people are communicating with other people online who they believe to be of the same age but in actual fact may be otherwise. Such people may be acting in bad faith in terms of their purpose in being on social media, which may appeal especially strongly to young people.
It is also worrying that young people are, in some cases, accessing information about mental health on social media sites rather than from mental health professionals. It is welcome that they are accessing information which they feel will be beneficial to them, but not all information on social media sites about mental health is either accurate or helpful. This presents significant risks. Generative AI can present significant benefits to students but we must also be conscious of recent developments whereby inappropriate use of generative AI has resulted in the exploitation of young people. I am aware an Oireachtas committee looked at this on Tuesday. For this reason, the TUI recently permanently ceased posting on one particular social media site.
Education settings have an important role to play in the area of safe use of technology and social media but very significant responsibilities also rest with parents, communities, NGOs, the Oireachtas, Government Departments and bodies under their aegis. Most importantly, the commercial bodies need to make their products safe for young people to use. The American educationalist Larry Cuban, almost 40 years ago, said that when society gets an itch, schools get scratched.
The TUI would like to make the following recommendations to the committee. There should be additional provision of guidance and counselling support in all education settings. Parents need to be supported by the relevant Government agencies in supporting their children to access technology and social media safely, or in preventing their children from accessing any social media sites which may not have adequate safeguards in place. The Oireachtas should actively consider whether minimum age limits can or should be implemented, especially for use of social media sites. Of course, this will need to be considered in the light of knowledge that young people can sometimes easily bypass some safeguards through the use of VPNs, for example. Funding is needed for sufficient school devices to prevent students from using their personal devices in school settings, as schools cannot supervise social media apps which are on personal devices. There should be a national social media safety framework for education settings.
Article 36 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that children must be protected from "exploitation prejudicial to any aspects of the child's welfare". The work of this committee could make a real and positive difference in that regard. I am happy to answer any questions the committee may have.
Mr. Paul Crone:
On behalf of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today. The NAPD provides a united voice for post-primary principals and deputy principals across all three post-primary sectors. I begin by making a critical distinction. The use of technology in schools and social media are two fundamentally different issues that must not be conflated. Technology in education serves a vital purpose. Digital literacy and technological competencies are embedded in the key skills and core competencies of both the junior cycle and redeveloped senior cycle. Proficiency in technology is essential for our young people's future studies, employment and personal effectiveness. We fully support technology as an educational tool.
However, social media is entirely different. Students do not use social media to enhance learning. It does not form part of their formal studies. Increasingly, it is the source of the most serious harm affecting young people in our care. Online behaviours through social media represent the greatest single contributor to bullying and interpersonal conflict experienced by young people today. Over the past number of years, the NAPD has supported principals nationally through an insurance-backed online harm response model delivered by RiskEye, the online reputation and security specialists. I will share what this looks like in practice and why it matters.
First, I will address the human reality school leaders face.
When online harm reaches a school, it arrives as a distressed child, anxious parents, worried staff and a principal expected to respond immediately. These incidents involve harassment, impersonation, image misuse or reputational harm. They escalate rapidly, frequently outside school hours. Historically, principals managed these situations alone. The NAPD's support model, working with RiskEye, changes this. It allows principals to mind the child while harm is addressed professionally. The model provides immediate access to expert mitigation, legal and well-being supports, and structured platform engagement.
The second point concerns what we have learned from the data. As a consequence of incidents being handled through a structured system, harm is recorded centrally and consistently, and this reveals patterns. A small number of platforms account for most incidents. The same harm categories recur across schools, regions and time. Content removal rates improve significantly when specialists handle cases rather than schools attempting informal self-enforcement.
The third point is about why this matters for policy, regulation and children's rights. Centralised harm data has allowed the NAPD, in partnership with RiskEye, to develop education materials based on real incidents rather than assumptions. This approach does not replace policing or regulation; it complements them. It turns lived harm into usable insight while ensuring children and families receive professional support when harm occurs. Our experience shows that effective online safety requires three elements, namely, immediate care for the child, professional harm mitigation and systems that learn from real-world incidents. Our model contributes to all three.
I emphasise that this problem is not the responsibility of school principals to solve. Social media harm has impacted acutely on schools for years. In the absence of a centralised and co-ordinated national response, the NAPD took the decision to implement our own support model to protect our members and the students in their care. We must accept that the primary responsibility of schools is to educate students academically and pastorally, not to resolve all societal challenges. A comprehensive and resourced systemic approach that educates and empowers parents is essential to tackling harm through social media.
Mr. Ultan Mac Mathúna:
A Chathaoirligh agus baill an choiste, mo bhuíochas libh as ucht an chuireadh labhairt anseo inniu. I am chair of Education Support Centres Ireland and director of Dublin West Education Centre. I am joined by my colleague Ms Catherine Doolan, director of Laois Education Support Centre and chair of our digital technology in education committee.
ESCI is the representative body for the national network of 21 full-time and seven part-time education support centres across Ireland. Our centres operate in every region, providing high-quality, locally accessible continuing professional development and innovative programmes and projects, locally, regionally, nationally and internationally, in primary, post-primary and special education settings. Our purpose is to develop and improve teaching and learning by supporting educators at every stage of their professional journey. We act as a bridge between national education policy and classroom practice, ensuring schools are equipped to respond to emerging challenges, including those posed by digital technologies and social media.
Digital technology is now embedded in children's daily lives, both within and outside the classroom. Social media platforms can provide connection, creativity and access to information. However, we are also acutely aware of associated risks such as cyber-bullying, online harassment, exposure to harmful content, misinformation, image-based abuse, addictive design features, and impacts on sleep, concentration and mental health. The challenge for parents, schools and society is not simply to limit access but in equipping children and the adults around them with the knowledge, skills, resilience and ethical awareness to navigate digital spaces safely and responsibly.
Through collaboration with agencies such as Oide Technology in Education and Webwise, education support centres host and facilitate a suite of training programmes for teachers. Centres are involved in hosting programmes, such as the digital citizenship champion programme, that empower teachers to become leaders in embedding digital literacy and well-being practices within their schools. Our communities of practice, of which there are many, seek support on high-quality input into areas of specific interest to them, such as cyber safety and AI. The responsive nature of our provision means we are able to quickly gather information, provide support and create valuable iterative relationships with these groups.
The Agree to Agree pilot project, facilitated through a number of education support centres, is a powerful example of school-community collaboration. This initiative supports schools in engaging parents, staff and boards of management in structured dialogue to develop shared agreements around the use of Internet-enabled devices and smartphones. Rather than imposing rules, the project encourages collective responsibility and consistent expectations.
Looking ahead, ESCI believes Ireland can lead in promoting children's online safety and well-being through: sustained investment in teacher professional learning on digital resilience, AI literacy and emerging technologies; universal access to digital citizenship education embedded from early years through to post-primary; expansion of successful community-based initiatives like Agree to Agree to all school communities nationwide; increased structured supports for parents, particularly around social media algorithms, AI-generated content and online exploitation risks; and cross-departmental collaboration to ensure policy, regulation and education move in alignment as technologies evolve.
In recognising the time pressures and competing priorities in schools and in homes, it is vital that appropriate investment is made in enabling teachers and parents to avail of supports that meet them where they are and that are as accessible as possible for all users. The rapid development of AI-driven platforms and algorithmic content delivery systems means education policy must remain proactive rather than reactive. Education support centres are well-equipped in delivering practical, on-the-ground expertise to school communities to drive policy where it is intended to land, that is, in school communities.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for their statements and for the information they sent to us in advance of the meeting. It is all very helpful. I propose that the opening statements be published on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before I open the floor to members, I remind them they each have seven minutes, which must include the responses from the witnesses. We have a packed room this morning and we had a technical difficulty that caused us to be a little late starting. It means I must be very strict on time this morning. I ask members, when putting their questions, to ensure they strictly adhere to the agenda topic under consideration and to direct their questions to the witnesses they wish to respond. We have somebody attending online but I do not think the individual is on site. That person might send us a message if that is not the case. We will start with questions from Senator Murphy O'Mahony.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for giving up their time to attend the meeting. I thank them also for their opening statements and the documentation they sent to us in advance. I always say this is a very hard time to be young. It is also very hard to be a teacher or parent. We are living in a changing world. It is a pity it has gone that way but we just have to go with it.
My first question is to the representatives of the IPPN. They highlighted significant mental health challenges in primary school children. I am very sorry to hear about that. Primary school should be such a precious time and it is awfully sad that these issues are creeping in. What structural reforms are needed to ensure timely access to mental health services at a young age?
Mr. Páiric Clerkin:
I thank the Senator for her question. The therapeutic services that are in place and that are being developed at the moment represent progress that needs to be further developed within the system. One of the challenges we face is to ensure we have adequate personnel and that the individuals required to man those services can be found. Recruitment has been challenging but the developments we see within the special school sector are pointing us in the right direction in terms of where we need to go in the future. We will need to see upscaling of, and learning from, the programmes that are in place within the special schools.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Clerkin. My next question is for the witnesses from ESCI. It was mentioned that some children are arriving in school unable to learn, which is very sad. Parents have a lot to do with this. As a parent of grown-up children, I am aware that I spend a lot of time online.
If my lads were younger, this is what they would be looking at. There is a whole sector in respect of whom we have to be conscious of what is happening. It is very sad if children are arriving unable to learn because of the overuse of devices. If the ESCI could recommend something, what kind of community-based intervention or national programme would that be?
Mr. Ultan Mac Mathúna:
I refer to the Agree to Agree project, which I think the committee received a presentation on previously. Dr. Maureen Griffin, in particular collaboration with the Clare Education Centre and its chair, Mr. Martin Moloney, ran a pilot programme on behalf of the Department that proved to be positive and was very well-received. It is a very scalable model, given the appropriate investment. If that project were to be scaled out across the country, it would be very important that it be appropriately supported. Key to the project was the extra work involved and the work of Dr. Griffin along with it. I believe she was an exceptionally capable person in driving that project. Were it to be scaled across the country, we would need several Dr. Maureen Griffins to help centres to deliver on that.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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The INTO has called for a national task force on online safety. In the INTO's opinion, what key stakeholders should be represented and what immediate actions should this task force prioritise?
Ms Anne Horan:
We think that the national task force should bring together people from the Government, regulators, teachers, parents, young people and wider civil society. Our aim would be that such a task force would co-ordinate a coherent national response to online harm. We believe that the issue should form part of the forthcoming convention on education and we further believe that the voices of these young people themselves should be central to that conversation.
Our schools need practical supports. We need clear national guidelines and comprehensive professional development for teachers and we would like to see whole-of-school training on online safety and digital literacy. We want our children to navigate the digital world safely but they require proper support and resources to do so.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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The ASTI's research shows that one in five teachers has experienced cyberbullying, which is very sad to hear. What statutory powers or mechanisms of enforcement does the ASTI believe platforms should face to protect educators?
Mr. Kieran Christie:
There is scope to build on the facilities of Coimisiún na Meán and the EU legislative framework. What has become very obvious, particularly in light of the Grok controversy of recent weeks, is that the facilities need to be strengthened. It is for the Legislature to look at where the gaps are and to fill them in terms of regulatory authority around social media companies and so on. The situation has improved. It used to be the wild west, and maybe it is just the less wild west now, but it is still somewhat wild in terms of what children have access to unsupervised. That needs to be looked at. We are particularly interested in what is happening in Australia in terms of the removal of access for, I believe, under-16s. We have no formal position on that, but everyone on this side of the planet is looking carefully at what happens there and how it evolves. That may be an aspect that needs to be looked at.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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The TUI recommended a national social media safety framework for education settings. What does it think the core components of such a framework should be?
Mr. David Duffy:
There are a range of issues that need to be addressed but the most important thing is that we make clear where the core responsibility lies. In this area, responsibility is pretty broad and all of us have a role to play but the fundamental issue is that we can put the responsibility on a 13-year-old or we can put the responsibility on the companies that make money out of it. The framework needs to be very clear that the first responsibility rests with the companies that actually make money out of this.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Agreed.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the witnesses. I will get right into it, as I am aware of the time. My wife is a teacher with 28 years' experience. I am a father of four. I have three teenagers, so I understand well where the safety issues are. This issue is in every single school and every single house with teenagers right now. That needs to be recognised. The schools and teachers are having issues with this. It is particularly about the algorithms. They form addictions in kids and we need to start dealing with this.
I have a two-pronged question for Mr. Clerkin and Ms Kelly. I would also like Mr. Christie and Mr. Bell to answer. Can school-based lessons alone counter hours of harmful content that young people are seeing on social media every single day? How is this content impacting teachers at primary and secondary levels?
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
Schools alone cannot address the issues of, and threats to, online safety and the impact they are having on our children. I need to be honest about that. There needs to be a system-wide approach. We need to have parents, schools and the companies that are encouraging our children to engage in this kind of social media involved. We need age-appropriate design. We have already seen in Australia and Spain, even though it is early to analyse the results, the impact of having age verification systems. At least if we had the age verification system where the children had to prove they were aged 16, we would be mitigating some of the risk of damage.
From my 19 years as a teaching principal in a school, a lot of the sustained problems with social media are happening due to the likes, the follows and that kind of thing that exists on social media, so they have to be removed for children aged under 16 because those children are driven by that. They are saying that person A got 11 likes and person B got 12 likes, so person B is better. It brings in this whole comparison element, which in turn leads to problems within our classrooms. As far as I am concerned, the platforms should be built with child safety as a core principle, not as an add-on. There are too many sites where child safety is not even a consideration in how they are operating.
There needs to be faster response times when people are reporting online bullying or that inappropriate material has been provided, and the mechanism for doing that needs to be clearly understandable by children. Speaking as a parent, I do not know if my child would understand some of the language that is used on sites to explain how to report if they had a concern.
As was mentioned by someone else, we need algorithm transparency and accountability. We all know what is happening. It is that type of addictive algorithm that is drawing our children in. There is a statistic that more than 60% of children are themselves acknowledging that they are spending too much time online. If they are recognising it, then there clearly is a problem.
To go back to the Deputy's question directly, schools cannot do it alone but we have resources in primary school that greatly help us. The Webwise resource is really good at helping us in schools to try to give the children digital literacy, awareness and, I suppose, resilience. We have to accept that, given the statistics, online bullying is happening. Whatever chance we have, we have to give the children the skills to be able to manage when it happens and also to be able to discuss with parents at home when it happens. The issues as regards online safety are happening outside of school but are impacting in school. I hope I have given a solution.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Definitely.
Mr. Richard Bell:
From our point of view, we see it as being a total, systematic approach. It has to be. There is no question that most of what is occurring occurs outside of the school. Although I am not sure if this is the case in all schools, mobile phones are banned in my school, so that is not the problem. The problem is at home. In the CyberSafeKids document, "A Life Behind the Screens: Uncovering the Realities of Digital Childhood", it was reported that apparently 42% of kids did not speak to anybody about online things that worry them. This is occurring at home, outside of school.
Obviously, schools are the interface with students and there is a responsibility there, but here is the problem. Six months ago nobody was talking about Grok; it has been in every single newspaper constantly in the past couple of weeks. Before that the big issue was ChatGPT and its dangers for education and so on. The problem is, what happens when we deal with Grok? We deal with that and in six months' time it will be something completely different. I go back to Roblox. There was a huge thing done on RTÉ about that subject. The problem is that it is a little like the Golden Gate Bridge: once you have painted it you have to paint it again. How then do we stay on top of this? The answer to that, in my view, is that there are two ways to do it. One is that we are constantly updating training, but schools are completely filled with initiatives. If it is not technology, it is drugs. We are inundated. Mr. Duffy stated that when society scratches, schools itch. I do not know how we could do that. Perhaps there is scope for the introduction of groups, as was offered, that would come into schools and would be constantly on a super high level of knowledge and be able to deal with these things. That could be updated constantly and they could move around. If we are to be serious about this, it will take investment. To be fair, you cannot defend yourself from missiles with a bow and arrow, and that is largely my fear of what will happen. We now need specialised people available to schools who are constantly going around dealing with that. That is my view.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to let the witnesses know that there are six groups, so if you have an opinion on something, you can indicate to the Senator or the Deputy that you would like to come in on it and they might graciously come to you. I am just conscious that not everybody will get an equal number of questions.
Now we go to Deputy John Connolly.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This is an area we are all learning about, and teachers and principals are dealing with it at the coal face because the people who are potentially most harmed are in front of them every day. They are dealing with issues the children are bringing to them that are new to them as well, possibly, and doing so very well, I find. The way teachers are dealing with this is commendable of the profession. There is the term "digital native". I do not want to be offensive to anybody but I am not sure if the cohort of teachers throughout the system would be all digital natives. Certainly, teachers in schools are dealing with this very well, and it is a very significant challenge.
On the last point Mr. Bell made about a general body being responsible for coming in and updating the teaching profession on the latest developments in this area, is there any feedback on Oide and how it is doing that?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
In terms of Oide, there is the digital technology section. Webwise is a Department of education programme as well. Schools are currently so consumed by the introduction of digital technologies and how they complement the curriculum that perhaps the focus is not on the social media aspect and the impact in our schools. What we are witnessing in our schools is a demonstration of collective exposure to harm. We can put in place all the interventions and programmes and supports in our schools, but the companies that are getting bang for their buck are not held accountable. Every day I could field up to ten or 15 calls from principals and deputy principals about the harm being caused in schools and across all social media platforms. What I witness personally and professionally every single day is an absolute inconsistency across moderators and across platforms. Who is defining what harm looks like? What might not be harmful to Deputy Connolly might be incredibly harmful to another person. We are a trusted flagger on one particular platform. It is still not enough. You do not know whether you will be dealing with a bot or a human, and then there is the definition of harm that happens within our schools. There are things there, but it comes back to accountability of the social media companies. As my ASTI colleagues said, in terms of that expert support for schools, we have engaged RiskEye, mitigation experts and specialists who are working 24-7 to support us. We get a call across any social media platform, about any issue, and we have mitigation experts, people who have worked in and with these platforms, who can provide support and who can report on behalf of school leaders and children.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to ask about RiskEye. Who is paying for the service?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is RiskEye a private company?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Again, it shows the extent of the problem-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----when both NAPD and the ASTI have developed systems for their members to turn to in challenging times. How busy is it?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
Very busy. The Deputy can see that even in the statistics we have submitted. If he looks at the final page of our submission, he will see a 97% increase in reported cases to RiskEye in the past school year, a 184% increase in successful removal of harmful content, a 146% increase in cases requiring advocation with platforms and a 10% increase in cases requiring support, guidance and education.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask the ASTI how busy the digital rights hub is?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the ASTI engage a private company like RiskEye to manage this?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It will not engage with the ASTI.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I think one of the challenges, to come back to a general point, is the pace at which there are new platforms being developed and new ideas. That is one of the challenges for the Government in regulating the whole area. It is so vast and it is moving so quickly.
May I ask the INTO and the IPPN about Webwise? Mr. Geary might have a comment. How successful is Webwise?
Mr. David Geary:
Webwise is doing an amazing job. The level of the demand for support is skyrocketing around everything from digital citizenship to safe Internet use to cyberbullying, all because of the manifestations in the classroom and Oide. We are also, as a trade union, providing CPD and courses, including summer courses, in this area, as well as webinars and additional resources to try to keep pace.
Going back to a point we made earlier, CPD is hugely important. Our members are literally crying out for this. The reason we are talking about a national task force and a convention is to the exact point the Deputy made, which is that it is so difficult to keep up with the evolution of online harm. As regards the way this is manifesting in the classroom, the sheer volume of manifestations that have been reported to us has gone through the roof in the past-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Have the INTO and the IPPN had the necessity to establish something like the digital rights hub or engage someone like RiskEye? Is there maybe a difference between what older children are doing online and what primary school children might be doing online? Is the risk to the teachers greater at second level?
Mr. Páiric Clerkin:
I would argue that the risk is not greater. I think it is right across the system, but perhaps the resourcing and the structuring are slightly different. We provide a different type of support in that we have a professional guidance line, where individuals provide support right throughout the year to members who are struggling and trying to deal with some of these challenges. In relation to Oide and the resourcing, again it is about the speed of change. Genuine and really successful supports have been put in place, but there is a need for further investment, and the speed of that technological change cannot be overestimated. The work also needs to be a partnership. What we have happening through the education centres to make it accessible right throughout the country is the challenge, but more resourcing and more investment are needed. We also have to take into consideration-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am running out of time and I have one very important question.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. The TUI made two points. I think the ASTI might have made a similar point. The TUI said that funding is needed for "sufficient school devices to prevent students from using their personal devices in school settings". That did occur, did it not?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It was widely criticised.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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One piece of feedback on the pouches: they work.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there not a good point to be made about universality, having the same system everywhere?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, Deputy. I call Deputy Grace Boland.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome.
I will start with the pouches. All the organisations present are doing their best, as we are as legislators and parents, etc., to try to support people dealing with the challenges of social media and constant access online to whatever we want in the world, particularly for our kids. It occurs that the witnesses are all doing very good work in trying to support various teachers, principals and school bodies. Do they collaborate at all? Without trying to reinvent the wheel, is there any way that teachers and principals in all schools have the same level of access to reporting, supports, mental health supports and counselling? Is there any collaboration, sharing of information or access to resources across the organisations?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
In the context-specific nature of our schools, it can be difficult but we have shared information about our engagement with RiskEye. An important point is that even if we were all to collaborate all day every day, we are only in loco parentis 166 days a year from 9 a.m. to 3.30 p.m.-4 p.m. We can put the children into pouches for that length of time, but as soon as they get on the school bus or their phone is returned to them, there is another collective, collaborative responsibility beyond schools in informing and supporting our parents through associations such as the GAA, and different nationwide associations that extend beyond those of us only in schools.
Mr. Ultan Mac Mathúna:
Our role is to work with all the partners we see here today, and we have various projects. We seem to be going down the road of trying to find a solution in the school when the problem exists outside of the school. That is the trap we have fallen into, even in this discussion.
At a recent talk Professor Niall Moyna gave, he talked about how the pill treats the symptom but not the original problem. That is what we are trying to do here. We need to change behaviours and how the whole system works, rather than coming in too late when there is a claim of bullying, be it a child or a teacher or whomever. Everybody is saying a system-wide approach, and how this can happen is through some of the examples we have given the committee where it is community-based and the school just plays a role. Ms O'Connor mentioned the GAA agreed to an Agree to Agree project. There are videos available online and one of the local GAA clubs got involved. All the senior hurlers said to get on board and we will agree to agree. It is very simple practice, but it is community-based.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is the issue with rolling out Agree to Agree funding?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What has the interaction been with the Department on making that a national project?
Dr. Catherine Doolan:
Across the ESCI network, there are many ground-up projects and initiatives like that. In our own centre, a digital resilience project is currently kicking off.
Traditionally, we have been the responsive piece, and Mr. Mac Mathúna has alluded to that. When Covid and the Ukrainian crises hit, schools needed support and the ESCI network was the local piece where they could go for high quality CPD; expert evidence-informed advice and a collective response piece where schools in a local area could come together to look at their own particular context, not just relating to cyber safety, but across many areas of the curriculum where they can access support, look at how it plays out in their own context, what kind of supports they need and what sort of outputs they might be able to put in place to mediate some of the problems they are experiencing. That is where we act as the intersection of policy and practice.
Instead of waiting sometimes for the change to happen at system level and the policy piece to change, we come in on the ground level to try to support schools. A lot of the time, which has been mentioned, things like this are moving so fast and the world is changing, that we are building the plane as we fly it with schools. School authorities know best in their own context what their challenges are, what is meeting them every day when they open the door, what kind of things are happening and what kind of supports might suit them. A large school in Clondalkin might be very different from a school in west Kerry, or it might not be-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Doolan for that. I am just conscious I only have two minutes.
I want to ask about teacher cyberbullying and online social media interaction. Is there a cultural change happening in how students interact with each other and how they treat teachers in the classroom?
I put that question to Mr. Geary and Mr. Christie.
Mr. David Geary:
Yes, absolutely. We regularly engage with our members to ask them how this is manifesting in the classroom. Some feedback noted in the past couple of weeks, and I will keep it short given the Deputy's time, included things like peer-to-peer conflict being more difficult to resolve and poor communication in the classroom. This is before you go into things like exhaustion, well-being and the other sleep deprivation signs of overuse. It is manifesting in those conflict-driven situations in the classroom.
Echoing what many colleagues around the table have said, another example of a school dealing with the outcome of the problem often happens outside the school gate. We believe public awareness campaigns are a key feature here, and we were really taken by the Data Protection Commission's sharenting campaign. Again, we need to start looking at resources like that so that parents' knowledge on some of the risks here is informed.
Mr. Kieran Christie:
I am conscious of the Deputy's time, but I endorse what Mr. Geary said.
The whole thing has given bullying a whole new dimension in schools, with the subtlety that is facilitated by the different social platforms in terms of bullying, exclusion and all that kind of thing. It is a 24-7 phenomenon now. Pupils can no longer escape the bullies at 4 p.m. when they go home, and it spills over into the school yard.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses all feel much of the bullying, particularly of teachers and maybe of students, is done under anonymous names or "User 1234", so there is a bit of a hidden element?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I have a real issue with that. It is not that I think everybody has to have their photo or their name up there, but the platform needs to have that if people want to take litigation or make complaints.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for coming in this morning and for their very detailed briefing documents and opening statements.
I want to discuss the mental health aspect of all of this, and then the access to phones in schools and social media. It is important to first say it is about collective responsibility and the witnesses are all just one element of that. Most of the time, schools and parents will limit or restrict time on these devices but unless the platforms are forced to act, it does not take anything away, whether someone gets an hour on the phone or three hours. The content is still there, and there is nothing the witnesses can do per se, nor is there anything a parent can do with the content itself and the algorithm. It is important to make that point, and the witnesses are just an element to all of this. It is not an easy thing to manage.
It would be good to hear from the teaching unions on the uptake of the phone pouches and the difficulty in limiting access to phones during school time. I am always reminded of a briefing we had with young carers on how challenging it was for them in having a caring responsibility and needing to have their phone to some degree, as well as the flexibility needed of young people who have that caring responsibility. I am always mindful of it when I speak about restricting phone use in school.
Could I get get an idea from the INTO, ASTI and TUI of how the physical restriction of the mobile phone in the classroom is going?
Ms Anne Horan:
INTO would support a mobile phone ban, but it has not been a huge issue at primary level because in a lot of our schools, the children do not bring in their phones; parents will hold to that.
We would have preferred if the funds for mobile phone pouches were used to support other priority issues within primary and special education. We believe the vast majority of primary school students are not developmentally ready for the use of mobile phones. Our members, including principals and teachers of senior classes, generally urge parents to delay providing mobile phones until the children are older. If they are misused, it can lead to issues with social anxiety and bullying.
It is a whole-of-society approach. Parents need to be behind this as well. When a lot of children get access to a mobile phone, as we said, it is after school hours. In school, it has been reported to us that there is a decreased capacity to concentrate, increased neediness and lower tolerance. Children have less patience, need constant distraction and need redirecting. There are huge challenges between friend groups. Children have fewer social skills, they do not know how to work things out or how to converse properly and perhaps confuse the number of friends they have on a platform with the number of people they actually meet. Popularity was also mentioned. There are higher levels of anxiety and we see worrying levels of low mood.
Mr. Kieran Christie:
I will deal with the issue around pouches. The then Minister provided money to solve a problem that had largely been solved already within most schools at that stage. That is our issue. We think the resources could have been diverted to more important things. I made a point earlier in my presentation about robust enforcement by Coimisiún na Meán and under Ireland's online safety framework and so on. We recommend a number of actions. There should be mandatory 24-hour removal of abusive or illegal content involving minors or educators, transparent moderation decisions, stronger age verification measures and sanctions for repeated non-compliance should exist and be enforced.
Ms Laura Conheady:
Students bring in digital devices to do course work and they have personal apps on them. They should be provided on a whole basis, not just on a school basis and a personal basis because teachers cannot control that. Every 12- to 15-year-old has access to a smart device - 99%, which is a huge number. For the 18 hours they are outside, they need support for social interactions. One in five students have an issue or concern or are upset by social interactions outside - it could be inside - but outside school. They come into the classroom and we need more supports for those issues with guidance counsellors to support teachers, principals, deputy principals and home-school liaisons - the people dealing with it on the ground - to support those students. That is the core of the issue. We need to support them with an extra allocation.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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A number of the witnesses mentioned mental health specifically in the opening statements. I am not sure how often SPHE is taught. In my time in secondary school it was once a week if I remember rightly and perhaps less in primary but I am sure that has changed. In terms of supporting young people with their mental health and the impact social media, mobile phones and all of that have on their mental health, years ago, it was a case of being told to go out and play in the field and use your imagination. Now, it is just screen, screen, screen. The impact of that is huge.
Mr. Richard Bell:
SPHE to deal with this area is fine. You can talk about the dangers of social media but the problem we have in SPHE, which we discussed before, is there are class sizes of 30 students. If a kid has an issue, you cannot deal with a specific personal issue in a class with 30 students. It would be the worst possible forum in the world to deal with some of these issues. Guidance counsellors need to be provided. If you want SPHE classes to really work and deal with some of these issues, it should be ten to one. That is the concern around the SPHE area for us.
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
SPHE is taught in the primary education sector. Webwise is a huge part of that as regards trying our best to impart digital safety and digital literacy lessons to our children but it is broader than that. In general well-being terms, we try to build in resilience as much as possible so that when the inevitable happens, unfortunately, and our children encounter scary, as they say themselves, situations online, they have the skills even to talk to a parent or teacher about that. It is building that kind of strength for our children. Some 43% of children who have witnessed harmful content online have not told anybody. That is a really worrying statistic. From a primary school perspective, no more than secondary, we build it into SPHE, we follow Webwise, do a lot of work around well-being and resilience but the harm is happening outside of school. It is outside of the walls.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will come back to Deputy Kerrane in the second round. Members will have five minutes and I will then give each organisation one minute to close.
I will pivot to a new area. I did an online safety report and launched it in September. We had 2,000 responses. We published it in November. Grok did not feature in that report at all because it had not been launched at that point. We are looking at the next thing coming down the line. I have huge concerns about the AI chatbots already here providing mental health support but even going past that, I think the next thing coming down the line is AI girlfriends and AI boyfriends, which are especially sweeping across the board in Asia. Ms Horan spoke about kids having difficulty making friends. I think somebody else mentioned the difficulty understanding friends online versus friends in person. We now have Tinder and Bumble babies and marriages. When I was in college, Tinder and Bumble were not a thing. Are people going to have AI girlfriends and boyfriends in two years' time, one year's time or six months' time? Are we prepared for that? Have the witnesses seen any of that in schools yet? In the RiskEye statistics, I did not see Discord, Candy AI or some of the smaller Article 27 companies that are not even here. Do the witnesses think AI girlfriends or boyfriends is coming down the line? Are they concerned about AI bots being designed to please the user and so they are designed to be submissive, are often highly sexualised and perpetuate misogyny? I will start with Mr. Bell. He spoke about next fears. It is not here yet so while we are reacting to Grok and things that went wrong, we can be proactive in this space. I will ask Mr. Bell first and then Mr. Geary, Ms O'Connor and Ms Doolan.
Mr. Richard Bell:
The ultimate answer as to where we are at is I have not a clue and that is what is frightening. The frightening thing is we are now immersed, terrified of Grok and the Cathaoirleach just introduced a new problem down the line. I do not know how schools will be prepared for that. I was talking to a parent recently who is extremely strict on being online and they found their 14-year-old daughter in the position the Cathaoirleach just described. It is mind-blowingly frightening. I do not know how we can prepare teachers to deal with that or the fallout of all of that. It is a massive problem but the problem continues. Just when we put our finger in that hole in that dyke, it is going to explode somewhere else. That is the problem.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is about digital literacy and training.
Mr. David Geary:
The INTO along with other education trade unions attended a global summit on artificial intelligence within education in Brussels last December. At that, Punya Mishra, a global educationalist, gave a keynote speech looking at the evolution of this and the harm that arises. I mention this because we are hosting him for an education conference later this year here in Ireland. He talked about that one-to-one relationship with young children. A point he made which responds to the Cathaoirleach's question was that where suicidal ideation has been exposed and parents are looking at devices, in other jurisdictions - we do not have the full scale of it here yet - they were discovering one-to-one relationships had been formed with chatbots. He gave the example of years ago whether it was body image issues or eating disorders, they would find the YouTube videos because they were public but with this one-to-one relationship, sometimes the parents do not know.
He also talked – this is interesting in the context of digital literacy – about the sycophantic nature and positive validation of AI systems, where every question a person asks is the best question that could be asked and they are the smartest person in the world for raising that question. In a world where there is creeping loneliness and children are isolated and exposed, that level of positive validation is concerning because of the bond it creates.
We are looking at this in the global sense. There was a question earlier about how unions are working together. This is one such example. We are hoping that Punya Mishra will delve into the Irish situation a bit more when he is here in November.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a scary statistic that, last year, one in ten adults in Ireland had a relationship with a chatbot. Mr. Bell mentioned how AI can give people the impression that they are the best in the world. I have often fed information into AI when I have a short period of time to get through a task. When I revise that same task, the chatbot tells me not to worry about those tasks because I have done enough work already. Who is it to tell me I have enough done? I have to answer to my constituents.
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
It is a valid concern. It is not the fault of social media alone, however. Given the age profile of older teenagers who engage in these potential relationships, we have vastly underestimated the impact Covid and the lack of socialisation have had on our young people during their formative years. I was a post-primary principal for ten years. There is a massive difference in behaviour between students in first year and sixth year nowadays. These were massively formative years for them. With the best will in the world, teachers tried to continue to deliver a curriculum but, perhaps, in that online space, subjects like social, personal, and health education, SPHE, were left off because there was a focus on English, Irish, Maths and so on. There is a massive gap in this regard and we have completely underestimated its impact on young people. It is not solely due to the availability of this technology. Rather, they do not know any better.
With regard to the trends and statistics that RiskEye has provided, we see that the biggest harm, particularly with TikTok, is ship accounts. It is the digitalisation of the back of the bathroom door where someone might write that a certain person loves someone forever. It is a highly inappropriate combining of children together, inappropriate relationships and so on. It is prolific in our schools but that has come about because of a lack of awareness of its impact.
Dr. Catherine Doolan:
The speed of change is something we have mentioned a few times. We cannot keep up with it, nor should we. In some ways, we must drill down in a situation like this and look at how we can equip our students, parents and school communities to be critical and suspicious and to keep a healthy eye on what is happening in order that they can make sense of it in a more value-based way, because there will be something else next year that is the next “big scary thing”. We must move away from fear and build capacity to cope with what is happening in real time. That is the real challenge for our school communities. They must be able to look deep into their values around these things and put something in place to cope with them.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If we do not have a “big scary thing” until this time next year, we will be doing very well.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I fear we will not make it to the summer. We will go into our second round. Each member will have five minutes and we will stick with the original speaking rota. I call Senator Margaret Murphy O’Mahony.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I have a question for the witnesses from the NAPD because I did not get the chance in my first slot. They emphasised that principals face immediate pressure during online harm incidents. What national rapid response structures should be established so that schools are not left minding the crisis by themselves?
Mr. Paul Crone:
In many ways, this is not new. We are quite late to the party. This has been going on for more than ten years. Principals have been trying to contact these companies, initially Facebook, to try to get false pages taken down as well as react to support staff, students and families. With the support of RiskEye, principals now have someone on the end of the phone who can give them expert advice on what to say and do and provide a roadmap in that regard.
At the end of the day, the principals are the leaders of learning in the schools, but so much of their time is spent on this. They need access to immediate professional mitigation and support services, and those should be available across primary and post-primary because, let us not forget, children aged ten, 11 and 12 in fourth, fifth and sixth classes have access to phones. Students need access to phones, because we cannot get on a Ryanair flight without our smartphone, pay for things or find our way around town without them. We need to give them the skills to navigate the successful use of the smartphone while mitigating the negative aspects. Principals need access to that professional support.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, guidelines are needed. I thank Mr. Crone.
Turning back to the witnesses from the ASTI, will they expand on the ASTI’s support for phone-free school policies? Does it want no phones at all in schools or does it just want them to be put away?
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I have been in and out of this meeting.
Mr. Kieran Christie:
We fully support the phone-free policy within schools. Long before the then Minister, Deputy Foley, introduced her initiative, in the vast majority of schools phones were being put into plastic lunchbox things and so on. I mentioned, when the Senator had to step out, that we feel that resource could have been diverted because the problem has been solved in the vast majority of schools. It is no longer an issue.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I am looking at the way things are going regarding teenagers and the responsibility of parents. That is the key. As I have said before, my wife is a teacher but we are also parents. The key to this is that it is down to the parents. Every Monday, we get a delivery report. It comes to us and we can see exactly what is going on. In my house, I call it the truth report because when it comes in, I ask my teenagers what is going on. I can tell by their look. They know themselves, as do their friends. We have these conversations. We could use this going forward. They know about it and are aware of it. We have to get behind it. As parents, we have to ask ourselves whether we are looking into and are aware of this. I wanted to put that statement out there.
This question is for anyone who wishes to answer it. How are teachers dealing with the curriculum overload? Do they have the capacity to engage in significant digital citizenship education?
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
From the primary school perspective, the curriculum overload is not impacting on our capabilities with regard to covering the SPHE programme. Our well-being lessons are also integrated throughout every school day. Teaching the core lessons around digital literacy and digital citizenship is not an issue.
I admire and agree with what the Deputy said about the role of parents but it is about how we encourage that across a broad spectrum. How will we ensure we have all parents on board considering the number of children who do not tell their parents when something in their world bothers them or something scary happens online? I still think we must look at the platforms and age verification to ensure all our children are safe.
Ms Anne Horan:
In the coming years, priority has to be given to training and planning for the implementation of our redeveloped primary curriculum. Teachers should get training to equip them to approach huge issues like this. We hope to get continuing professional development, CPD. We know it is available from Webwise, the Irish Internet safety awareness centre, Oide Technology in Education and education centres, but we have an issue of overload. We have very busy days, but there should be a system-wide roll-out of CPD during the school day. That would be important to help our teachers to plan.
Our curriculum needs to be flexible as well. We have wonderful resources such as Webwise and our Stay Safe programme, but they need to be living documents because, as we are saying all along, change is happening so quickly. We do not need to wait four or five years. We should not wait to redevelop the Stay Safe programme. It should be regularly updated such that the whole country is working on the same basis.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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During Covid, teachers were teaching in the classrooms while everyone’s faces were covered and there were no facial expressions. That had an impact moving forward. I can understand where the witnesses are coming from. As they kept saying, something new is coming down the line every single year and we have to prepare for that. It is an evolving thing. I agree with Ms Kelly regarding the companies. They are responsible, but there is also a parental element to it.
Mr. Richard Bell:
Secondary school is slightly different.
We have sections such as social, personal and health education, SPHE, but largely we have a body of work to get done for examination purposes, most teachers are subject-specific experts and all these things are being thrown into the schools. I get it - children are in schools and those are the places where you get them, but the reality is schools are almost at breaking point. Teachers are at breaking point.
Ms Laura Conheady:
I reiterate what Mr. Bell said. The online safety code only encompasses nine platforms. It does not encompass any of the gaming platforms, the chatbots that the Deputy mentioned or the different ones, and they are all going to come online. If the code is expanded by Coimisiún na Meán, it is critical for our students that we have that.
There is a waiting list of 4,400 with CAMHS, with 602 waiting over 12 months. It is critical that we have people to support our students in schools with that as well, that is, guidance counsellors on the ground, home school liaison officers and extra allocations so that they can access and support the students.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Have the IPPN and the INTO any insight into the new primary school curriculum being more appropriate in this sphere of trying to guide young people through the use of social media?
Ms Anne Horan:
Digital literacy is seen as one of the key competencies in our primary curriculum and time will be given to it. As I said, everything needs to be flexible in this arena. Things are changing. There is something new every six months. We need a living document that can be changed as the need arises.
Mr. Páiric Clerkin:
From the primary school, you are going to see that it is embedded right across the curriculum. One of the things that we will need support with over the coming years is ensuring that the appropriate continuing professional development, CPD, and the time for it are made available. That is something that everyone within the primary sector is calling for.
There is one other point that has to be considered and that is the leadership around it and the time for leadership. We are talking about one complex issue here today but there are many complex issues arising all of the time. Our schools are structured around that basic structure that was there 50 or 60 years ago. It is not fit for purpose and is putting enormous strain on school leadership.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The secondary schools are represented here by the NAPD, the TUI and ASTI. As far as they are aware, have any of the cases that have come before them and that have caused concerns in their schools led to Garda inquiries under Coco's law?
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
We have had a couple of significant cases that the NAPD, in partnership with RiskEye, has mitigated across schools. We collect and lobby, based on harm. There have been cases in terms of Coco's law. We had a very serious "sextortion" case in one of our schools where a child was targeted via their instant messaging on Instagram. The child went to the school. The account was deleted and all supports were put in place, but Instagram would not engage in mitigating the harm being done because it was done via that child's direct messaging. That led to lobbying with Coimisiún na Meán, RiskEye and NAPD. Instagram's global messaging rules have now been changed so that if you are targeted via other direct messages of your friends, Instagram will now take responsibility for that.
Lobbying Google over 18 months, we highlighted the harm being done in schools by Google Reviews. Ireland was an outlier, in that it was the only place left in Europe where you could negatively or - highly unlikely - positively review a school via Google Maps. Google disabled that. We were the last country in Europe. After extensive lobbying, Good has disabled that and retrospectively removed all harmful reviews on schools as well.
We have seen horrific cases in terms of Coco's law and the harm being done in schools. It is horrific.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On the change that the NAPD brought about with Instagram, was Coco's law part of the motivating factor for Instagram?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is very worrying but it is good work from the NAPD. Well done.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Has ASTI any experience in this regard?
Mr. Kieran Christie:
I would preface what I say by saying that we would argue that school-based resolution is always preferable but some instances constitute criminal behaviour and in that case, Garda involvement is necessary. You have harassment, threats and non-consensual sharing of intimate, usually mocked-up, images, etc.
I would make the point that Garda powers to access IP addresses and identify anonymous perpetrators are an important aspect, but in our view, escalation should follow a tiered, proportionate model. We need clear protocols to be put in place that would help schools determine when matters require law enforcement intervention. That is a gap in the system.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a gap. Okay, that is interesting. Has the TUI experience of that?
Ms Laura Conheady:
We have referred members of ours, who would have faced different issues with social media, directly to An Garda Síochána. They have also gone to our colleagues, NAPD, to have it enforce RiskEye as well. We would have had different cases with students that they referred directly to An Garda Síochána.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Something in the TUI opening statement was concerning, where it reads, "young people are ... accessing information about mental health on social media sites rather than from mental health professionals." How extensive is that problem?
Mr. David Duffy:
I regret to say it is becoming an awful lot more common and it is a grave concern. If young people are aware of mental health difficulties and are seeking assistance for that, that is a positive. That in itself is perhaps an improvement on the past. However, where they are seeking that assistance is of grave concern. It is important that the resources be available in the school, namely, guidance counsellors and pastoral care supports, but also when there is an emergency that schools can refer onwards.
I need to say that our National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, colleagues and our child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, colleagues are brilliant. They do fantastic work but the waiting lists are enormous. That is no fault of the individuals concerned. They are dealing with utterly unmanageable caseloads but schools in those cases need to know where to go for help.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps Ms Horan wanted to come in on my point on mental health. Did I miss her on the last occasion? Maybe it was on SPHE. I thought Ms Horan had raised her hand and did not get in.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Did Ms Horan want to say something on the SPHE point?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.
My next question may be for the teaching unions, or anyone who wants to answer it. In terms of SPHE, not only the curriculum itself but, as has been said, building resilience and teaching children ways in which they can apply what they learn to different situations and hope that they will know how to respond to those situations, would there be much in terms of outside engagement with children in these SPHE classes so that it is not only the teacher per se but maybe people from the outside world who may be more on a par or a level with the children? Are there social media influencers or anyone positive, even from the GAA or anything like that, involved in outside engagement within the SPHE curriculum? Does that happen?
Mr. Kieran Christie:
Yes, in some instances. We are aware of some schools that invite speakers in on aspects of this, particularly around understanding algorithms, their persuasive design and so forth, given that the normal teacher may not be familiar with that kind of thing, or recognising misinformation and knowing when and how to seek help, which, I suppose, is the key overarching piece in any such intervention.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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A number of witnesses have referenced guidance counsellors. Of course, teachers are not therapists or psychologists and they can only do so much no matter how much training they have. I myself am a post-primary teacher, albeit I have a lot of hours to do. I am minded of Roscommon Comhairle na nÓg. It has brought forward a really excellent initiative, called "Listen Link". Roscommon Comhairle na nÓg has put it forward as an initiative in terms of complementing the SPHE curriculum so that you have somebody with a social care background or a youth worker with mental health expertise, and they are in the school. The comhairle's proposal was that the students in the school would have one person they could go to who they could confide in because sometimes it is not always the teacher. I wonder whether there is consensus in the room on the need for that additional support and whether that would be something like "Listen Link", where you have that one person who you can go to within the school environment. Roscommon Comhairle na nÓg gave costings. The costs are very small in terms of having that person and the huge benefit that would be within the school environment.
The hope is that every child in the school would see that person at least once a year, and where they would need a referral to a mental health support outside of that, that could be supported and helped. Is there consensus that the teacher cannot do it alone and there is a need for more guidance counsellors or supports within the school environment?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
We can never have enough supports but there are really good and excellent established programmes within the system, for example, Check and Connect, that was run by the national behaviour support service, NBSS. There are really good examples of one good adult mentoring or buddying systems within our schools, between junior and senior students. There are brilliant social enterprise programmes in our school, for example, Junior Achievement Ireland, where volunteers come from the outside, as the Deputy described, as well as Lift Ireland volunteers, who create leadership and facilitation skills among our senior students, working with our junior students and so on. Exactly as the Deputy describes, it is a shame that we need to look beyond our schools, but we are bursting at the seams in terms of lack of resources and time, even though our schools are bursting with expertise, the time and energy to do that is lacking. These initiatives are an add-on to our schools as opposed to the wonderful stuff that is already happening. We can never have enough support for our young people in schools.
Dr. Catherine Doolan:
Apart from the supports which are available within the school, NEPS delivers a comprehensive set of sessions through the Education Support Centre Ireland network for teachers. It is a little bit of bolstering of what is going on in the school that there is that support piece for teachers in various areas. Combined with that, regarding supporting teachers, schools and school communities, there is provision in different areas. There are communities of practice for our teachers various mechanisms to provide a little bit of structure and support to the teacher and the school in situ. This is done through our local programme in education support centres. We do the best we can; we cannot provide everything for everybody. Again, when the demand is there and when teachers or schools are looking for something, in so far as possible within the network, we try to find something that might be helpful and might be able to give that little extra piece of support in difficult times.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am going to ask my questions and then our witnesses will have one minute per organisation to close. I come back to RiskEye because I have a bee in my bonnet about the Article 27 companies, and the companies which are not headquartered in Ireland. I know Coimisiún na Meán's remit is limited to that. while it does engage with our counterparts under the Digital Services Act. I can see in the yellow section of the pie chart, though I cannot read the percentage, that it refers to issues by platforms for others. Without calling any platform into question, will our witnesses give a sense of which platforms are coming up? Is it the likes of Roblox that featured on "Prime Time Investigates" or is it smaller websites like Discord?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
It is exactly the ones you have described. You could nearly verbatim put all of those you have named in there, such as Candy AI or Roblox. It depends on whatever it is. There are even platforms RiskEye may not be aware of in terms of what is happening and causing harm within our schools, but it is all of the above of what you have described are included.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When RiskEye is brought in, does it have a prescribed set of organisations or companies it works with? If a child brings a complaint about a particular platform, it can then-----
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
Absolutely. It is a fully Irish company, established by Nicola Byrne and situated in Ireland. What happens is that it is attached to membership. A principal and deputy principal are members of the NAPD, so it is attached to that member in terms of mitigating online harm against that member. The NAPD, along with others in the room, is a trusted flagging partner of TikTok. That comes through us and extends our reporting. Privileges extend beyond that on behalf of the school, but the RiskEye piece focuses on our members and harm directed towards principals and deputy principals. However, often if it impacts the reputation of the school, it involves teachers and students in the school.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand. I am glad I clarified that. I thought it was that students would come to teachers and that would be reported to RiskEye. Does RiskEye collaborate with the likes of hotline.ie or Coimisiún na Meán?
Ms Rachel O'Connor:
Very closely. However, one of our biggest issues with Coimisiún na Meán, despite all of the great work it does, is it does not report on individual cases. Therefore, very often there is a lack of effort to protect the majority of people. It will not act on individual cases, whereas RiskEye will act and report on behalf of individuals.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Most of our witnesses in some way or another mentioned age verification and things in their opening statements. Many people do not actually realise that, under the online safety code currently, there is no need for age verification bar X, which is the only company based in Ireland that has allowed gratuitous violence and pornography. Even if we bring in age verification for 16 years of age, right now the online safety code requires the likes of Instagram and Facebook only to comply with their own terms and conditions of 13 years of age. I am excited about this pilot we are running, I hope soon, in relation to age verification, but how we roll that out will be difficult, given that digital age of consent is not in legislation.
The last question I will ask has sort of been answered but I will double-check it again. Webwise resources are amazing and the website is fantastic for parents, teachers and students. There is also some CPD. What more is needed? I visited two schools recently and one engaged a private company to come of an evening and talk to parents. The other did not have the budget to stretch to that. I am concerned that a school would be trying to find the budget to bring in a private company. What do we need to do? Do we step up Webwise's ability to put people on the ground and come after school? What are the witnesses' thoughts? I know continuing development for teachers was recommended, but as we have said, it is when students go home that is the issue and school often is that link.
Mr. Richard Bell:
There was a great ad campaign run on consent and all of that stuff. Perhaps it is time to do an ad campaign nationally to tell parents it is okay to say "No" to children. Most parents are under the impression that everybody is doing this and they cannot deny their child. Perhaps it is time parents are given strength and encouragement and told it is okay to say "No" and not everybody is doing this. We need to have that conversation. Maybe the best way to do that is a public ad campaign to say it is okay to say to your kids - in fact, it is good to say to your kids: "Not now. There is a limit."
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Crone made a good point that everything is now about tapping the phone. I will throw a number out and we will get a show of hands. Do our witnesses think 13 is the age to which we delay smartphones, or 14, or 12?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying we should ban all smartphones. If we ask people to agree or there is a pact online with the Department of Education and Youth where it is trying to get parents in primary school to delay buying their child a smartphone, I am asking what age we think it is appropriate that we ask parents to delay smartphone ownership until?
Mr. Páiric Clerkin:
We have to ask ourselves how we empower and support parents in order that they feel they can actually make these decisions. They are under incredible pressure, and many parents feel it is a wonderful achievement if they reach the end of primary school and it is towards the end of primary school that the child engages with a smartphone.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Would the end of primary school be a good point to flag?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Those agreements are starting to sweep across. I am going to go to witnesses in the same order that we went for the opening statements and they can have one minute for their closing thoughts. I will start with the INTO.
Mr. David Geary:
To summarise our position on this, it is a whole-of-society approach. Teachers and primary schools will play their role, but there is a role for society, parents and the Government through the regulators. It was not mentioned in this discussion, but we feel very strongly that class sizes play a part in this too. We still have among the highest class sizes in the EU. Given the discussion we have heard today about what is manifesting in classrooms and what teachers are being called on to deal with, we know that smaller class sizes are a tool in our arsenal.
The national task force that we mentioned is a great opportunity to get teachers and parents together, along with other actors in society, to see what workable solutions can emerge. We also feel strongly that the convention on education should explore this, again because of the level of harm to education. The public awareness campaigns which have been mentioned are a good idea, and should utilise simplified messages to parents who are overworked and busy and like the rest of us struggling to keep up with the evolution of this harm.
Adequate regulation and enforcement are essential and we would like to see more robust regulation.
Mr. Kieran Christie:
One point that has not been made is that the 2008 levels of guidance counselling in schools have never been fully restored and we think they should be. There have been some initiatives but they we are still below par on that one. We spoke about SPHE class sizes, and said they could be reduced; statutory recognition of community partner channels for schools and educational bodies; mandatory take-down of harmful content within 24 hours; enhanced enforcement powers and the resourcing of Coimisiún na Meán; clear national protocols on Garda referrals; public awareness campaigns and ongoing review of the harassment legislation to address anonymous online pile-ons; and defamation targeting both teachers and students.
Ms Deirdre Kelly:
We have guidelines for the protection and safeguarding of our children in their daily lives, yet we do not seem to have those same guidelines for protecting those same children in the digital world. We have all of the evidence from the Cybersafe Kids research that shows the damage and danger to children from the online world and social media. As a teaching principal, I have to point out that I have one day for administration or one day to lead teaching and learning in my school. Deputy principals in the vast majority of our primary schools are teaching full time. If we are to fully address this and try to help children who are encountering these kinds of difficulties in school, we need increased leadership time to be able to fully support our children when they meet such circumstances.
I am conscious of the time, so I will just say the digital companies should design for child safety and try to limit addictive design and strengthen moderation. Online safety is a shared responsibility. Our schools can educate, support and build resilience. Parents can guide and communicate. Governments can legislate and regulate. Digital companies must design and operate platforms with children's safety at the centre. Without systemic change at legislative and industry level, schools will continue to manage the consequences of digital environments over which they have little control.
Mr. David Duffy:
I thank the Chair and committee for their work on this important area. There is collective responsibility here but the first responsibility must rest with the companies and the regulators. Schools are only involved for six hours per day and they need additional resourcing. When there is an emergency, schools need to be able to get support from the relevant organisations that, in fairness to them, are dealing with utterly unmanageable caseloads. We can put the responsibility on schools and young people or we can put it on the companies that are making money. I also ask that the committee bear in mind the online safety code currently only covers nine platforms.
Mr. Paul Crone:
We need to remember this is not a new problem and it will not go away so we will have to take some action. When we look at the behaviour of our teenagers, we look at the addictive nature of social media and how the algorithm operates, and the behaviour of our teenagers in many ways is that of an addict. They will be resourceful. They will use things like burner phones or a second phone. They will sneak time and go to a quiet room to get access and we have to recognise their behaviours are those of an addict while also recognising there is significant harm being done to our teenager's mental health and socialisation. Similar to alcohol, and we have taken serious measures to restrict alcohol and the impact it is having, it is about time we did the same in relation to social media for our young people because the school's priorities are teaching, learning and equipping them with the skills they will need for their studies and their lives.
Mr. Ultan Mac Mathúna:
ESCI, by its very nature, is systemic. This is a systemic problem that needs to be solved on a system-wide basis. ESCI has a role as a focal point for that system. Dublin West Education Centre, of which I am director, actually manages Webwise for the Department and we work closely with Jane McGarrigle, who I know has been at the committee. ESCI works hand in hand with Oide, both on their elective and their mandatory CPD. The centres are our trusted partner for CPD across the country. We have local IT tutors who go into schools and help on a school-by-school basis. This all needs to be funded appropriately. Joe Biden once said, "Don't tell me what you value, show me your budget, and I'll tell you what you value." Our CPD needs to be appropriately funded so it can be effective. The plaster on the wound will not work this time. We really need investment in appropriate CPD where the teachers are and to help communities where they are.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh mile a maith agat. We can all agree it was a very informative and engaging discussion and everybody got a chance to contribute. I thank the everyone for taking time out of their day to discuss this very important topic.