Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 5 March 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
Special Education Provision and Special Needs Assistant Allocation Review: Discussion
2:00 am
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received in advance of the meeting from Senator Curley.
Everyone is very welcome. I ask those attending remotely to mute their microphones when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.
As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they will make to this committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses of the Oireachtas, or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The agenda for today's meeting is the provision of special education and the special needs assistant, SNA, allocation review. I welcome from the Department of Education and Youth Ms Angela Corcoran, principal officer, special education; Mr. Frank Hanlon, principal officer, special education; Mr. Martin McLoughlin, principal officer, special education; Ms Áine Cusack, principal officer, planning and building unit; and Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer, special education. Joining us from the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, are Mr. John Kearney, CEO, and Ms Helen Walsh, principal officer.
I now call on the officials to make their opening statements in the following order: Ms Corcoran, followed by Mr. Kearney. They will have five minutes each. The opening statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. I call on Ms Corcoran.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today on the important topic of provision of special education and the SNA allocation review.
We sincerely apologise for the upset and uncertainty caused to parents, SNAs and school communities in recent weeks. This was never our intention. We are working closely and collaboratively with all involved to provide much greater clarity and reassurance to parents, schools and SNAs.
Supporting children and young people with special educational needs is one of the Department’s highest priorities. That is why this year we have increased funding for special education to €3 billion, almost a 60% increase over the past five years and the highest level of investment ever provided. This funding is delivering extra services and support in mainstream classes, extra special classes and extra special school places across the country. These tangible developments reflect our commitment to the children and families who rely on these supports every day.
We greatly value the essential work that SNAs do in our schools. That is why we have continued to increase SNA numbers year on year, from 12,000 a decade ago to 25,000 SNAs today. This growth means more children are receiving the care and support they need to learn, participate in school life and gain independence.
Specific additional supports we have put in place include the following: in excess of 15,200 special education teachers are in mainstream classes for the 2026-27 school year, complementing the work of mainstream class teachers.
There are more than 25,000 SNAs, an increase of 1,700 funded posts in just one year, and more than double the number in place just ten years ago. A €62 million summer programme is in place that supports more than 50,000 vulnerable children, with a record 81 special schools participating. There is continued expansion of special classes, with 400 more to be added for this September and 351 already sanctioned, much earlier than recent years. A total of 129 special schools are in operation, including 16 newly established special schools opened in recent years to meet complex needs. There is also an education therapy service, delivered by the NCSE that will initially embed therapy supports directly into special schools and expand to mainstream schools over time.
We are committed to continually improving the education system in order that it responds to the growing number of children with additional needs. For example, we know the prevalence of autism is rising, which requires enhanced support across all schools and more specialist provision. It is important to remember that the majority of children and young people with special educational needs continue to be supported to attend mainstream classes in local schools with their peers and siblings. They are supported by their classroom teacher, special education teachers, SETs, and SNAs, as required. The leadership of school principals, deputy principals and boards of management is critical, and the Department hugely values their work in this regard. For students with more complex educational needs, a place in a special class can be considered. For students with the most complex educational needs, a special school place can be considered.
Each year, the Department and the NCSE work together to review our approach to forward planning new special classes. A circular letter, issued to all schools in May 2025, set out the plans of both the Department and the NCSE for forward planning new special education provision for the 2026-27 school year. Since then, there has been intensive engagement with schools, including their patron and management bodies, on the establishment of new special classes for the 2026-27 school year. Over recent months, a significant number of new special classes have been sanctioned by the NCSE. This includes 263 new classes sanctioned in January, a further 38 in February and another 50 at the start of this week. This brings the number of new special classes sanctioned for the coming school year to 351, which is a number of months ahead of last year. The earlier sanctioning of new special classes will provide greater clarity for parents and allow schools more time to prepare and plan for future need, especially the need for establishment of new special classes. Further details on the number of special classes already provided and newly sanctioned special classes are provided as an appendix.
As experienced across many other countries, the level of need for special education places continues to increase year on year. It is the intention of the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy Naughton, to bring a memo to the Government shortly on plans to meet the increasing level of need.
Recognising the importance of SNAs within school communities, the Department has worked intensively with stakeholders on the first ever SNA workforce development plan, which will be published shortly. The role of the SNA, as set out in Circular 30/2014, is to support children with significant care needs so that they can attend school, maximise their opportunities to learn and gradually build their independence. This plan will further strengthen the role, training and supports available to SNAs.
Regarding the recent SNA reviews, the circular issued in May 2025 informed schools that the NCSE would conduct holistic reviews during the 2025-26 school year to ensure that the increasing number of SNAs across our school system are allocated to the children with the greatest care needs. The Government has agreed a number of important steps in this regard. All schools that were reviewed and allocated additional SNA resources will receive them in the coming school year. No SNA reductions will take place in any school in the 2026-27 school year. The SNA redeployment scheme, the SNA workforce development plan and updates to the 2014 circular will all be completed before any further decisions are made. Once these documents are in place, the NCSE can begin reviews for the 2027-28 school year, ensuring decisions are made fairly, transparently and always based on children’s needs.
It is important to say that all this work is done in close partnership with SNAs, school principals, patrons and management bodies as well as trade unions, advocacy groups and, importantly, children and young people. Their voices, expertise and lived experience shape our approach. As part of work on the SNA workforce development plan, we have engaged with more than 13,000 SNAs, 200 teachers, 250 school leaders and numerous children, young people and parents.
Our investment in special education has also enabled us to introduce new and innovative supports, such as the pilot programme, towards inclusion, which will strengthen collaboration between special and mainstream schools. The AV1 interactive robot pilot will allow students in hospital or out of school for long periods to stay connected to their classmates and continue participating in learning. All our work involves close consultation with parents and children with a view to delivering solutions that meet their needs.
Over 2024 and 2025, the Department led one of the largest consultations in the history of the State with children and young people with special educational needs, their families and advocates to review the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs, EPSEN, Act 2004 and identify the improvements people wanted to see. A detailed action plan is being developed to deliver on the issues raised.
The Department remains committed to ensuring that every child receives the education they have a right to and deserve. That commitment drives our work every day. Our goal is clear; it is to ensure that every child with additional needs receives the right support in the right place and at the right time so they can thrive in school and reach their full potential. I thank the committee and will now address any questions.
Mr. John Kearney:
It is great to meet the Cathaoirleach and all Deputies and Senators this morning. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today on the important topic of special education provision and the special needs assistant allocation review. I am accompanied today by my colleague, Ms Helen Walsh, principal officer, NCSE.
The Government’s commitment to supporting children with special educational needs is evident from continued investment in special education, with an allocation of €3 billion in budget 2026. The NCSE has a vision of a world-class, inclusive education system for Ireland where children, young people and adults with special educational needs are supported to achieve better outcomes in their education and enabled to reach their full and true potential. The NCSE supports schools to enable students with additional needs to develop skills for life so they can participate meaningfully and fully reach their true and worthwhile potential.
The past two years have seen the introduction of school circulars that have enabled the NCSE to have a greater overview of specialist demand at both special class and special school levels. The council established the parent notify system and its special educational needs organisers, SENOs, and team managers work closely with school leaders, boards of management and patrons around the country to establish with quicker timelines the sanctioning of special classes. Over recent months, the council has sanctioned a significant number of new special classes. A total of 166 classes were sanctioned on 12 January 2026, with a further 95 on 26 January 2026 and 38 on 9 February 2026. An additional 50 classes were sanctioned earlier this week. In total, there are 351 special classes sanctioned for the coming year, months ahead of last year, with further classes to be sanctioned in the coming weeks.
The NCSE has a national lens on school practice in our school communities around the country. We applaud those schools demonstrating exceptional inclusive practices that provide supportive and nurturing learning environments for students. Each year, more and more schools are using innovative approaches to teaching and learning, tailoring interventions to meet students’ needs and accessing specialist support to ensure that all students have access to the full and broad curriculum to achieve their full potential. The NCSE commends and celebrates these best practices and works hard to support schools embed these practices right across our education system. The newly established education therapy service will further enhance inclusive education practices within schools.
The NCSE truly recognises the critical role SNAs bring to school inclusive practices and the care and support of our most vulnerable young learners. The council welcomes the SNA redeployment scheme and the SNA workforce development plan because the recruitment and retention of qualified and competent staff are vital to ensuring a well-resourced and sustainable SNA workforce. The council has facilitated the first national special needs assistants’ training course, developed in collaboration with the school of education in University College Dublin and currently being delivered by Atlantic Technological University, St. Angela's, Sligo.
This course has provided training to approximately 4,000 SNAs in our schools and has assisted our wonderful SNAs right around the country to have a greater understanding of students’ strengths and needs.
The SNA review process is fundamentally a child-centred process which operates under Department of Education and Youth's Circular 30/2014 as a scheme to support teachers in meeting the care needs of some children with special educational needs, arising from a disability. The circular identifies the basis for the allocation of SNA posts to schools, and restates the purpose of the SNA scheme, which is to provide schools with additional adult support staff who can assist children with special educational needs who also have additional and significant care needs. It is worth noting that this circular has guided the growth in the number of SNAs from 11,000 to approximately 25,000 for this coming September.
The NCSE SNA review process has undergone several cycles of continuous improvement. Just three years ago, the NCSE led focus groups with principals, who have engaged with the process, to streamline the administrative burden on school leaders and to strengthen the relational elements of the process. On foot of these learnings, the NCSE in 2024 ran a pilot with 50 schools nationwide with mixed demographics to better support schools’ understanding of appropriate SNA deployment and to support schools in supporting students’ emerging independence. From our ongoing engagements with schools, the NCSE developed an initiative to support to over 1,000 schools in 184 in-person clusters throughout 2024. The initiative was highly successful with schools reporting enhanced learning on deployment and the appropriate support of children with care needs.
Having robustly updated the process workflow after learning from the evidence from focus groups, the NCSE pilot, and the cluster sessions, many of the new elements are now incorporated into the review process. As a result, the NCSE review is now more evidence informed, resilient and transparent. Recent adaptations include a needs-based approach with the removal of the requirement for a psychological report to underpin care support; the enhanced use of student support plans and a care register of need aligned to the three-tiered continuum of support utilised by the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS; and the inclusion of parental voice through the parental questionnaire and student voice where provided.
Our tremendously committed 120 SENOs and highly proficient 20 team managers have worked incredibly hard to review school allocations in line with Circular 30/2014 for the coming academic year. With over 1,017 reviews completed and letters beginning to issue, we welcome the pause initiated by the Minister for Education, Deputy Naughton, who rightly heard the voices of concern that were issued. Most importantly, the NCSE duly notes and apologises for any and all upset and uncertainty caused to children, parents, special needs assistants and school communities in recent weeks. This was never our intention. We pride ourselves on our relationships with school communities and parents around the country. We continue to work closely and collaboratively with all involved to provide much greater clarity and reassurance to parents, schools and SNAs as we move forward. I thank the committee and look forward to the discussion.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Kearney. We now go to members' questions. Each member will have six minutes. Will members please give sufficient time within those six minutes for answers to be given? I will allow a very small overrun of time, but we will be constrained. If anyone hears me tapping my glass, it just means to conclude. We might have a few extra minutes at the end to close out bits that members may not have had time to close out properly earlier.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat, Cathaoirleach. I thank the witnesses for being here. I have a little bit of a tickle in my throat, so I apologise if it gets to me. I start by acknowledging the work that has been done. There are many positives. The witnesses have enormous workloads in front of them and enormous challenges. I recognise that and want to say it. I am not saying that everything I am going to say from here on out is going to be positive, so I wanted to acknowledge the positives first.
We need to get into why we are here. Circular 30/2014 essentially defined the role of an SNA as, first and foremost, a provider of primary care needs and that if the primary care needs are met or if there is a primary care need, we can then go and look at the secondary care needs of children in schools. The circular states:
It provides details of the primary care needs for which SNA support will usually be provided and details the types of secondary care associated tasks which SNAs may often perform, but only once they have been allocated on the basis of a requirement to provide for primary care needs.
The primary care needs, which every principal in the country will be familiar with, are listed later in the circular. The secondary care needs are also listed, but, again, only on the basis of a child or children in a school or class having a primary care need. I talk to SNAs, and they tell me that their jobs go far beyond that every day of the week. The witnesses all know that too.
To a certain extent, a lot of this circular is a case of paper not refusing ink. Good is being done and this is clear as we will have 25,000 SNAs in the country next year, but the circular is very limited in certain ways as well. For example, I was filling my car with diesel the other day before I drove up to Dublin and bumped into a teacher I know very well. There are 27 children in the teacher's class, which is a challenge as well, and seven have additional needs, but none have primary care needs. How is that teacher supposed to function in a classroom and get their classroom to work if they have a flight risk, or a school refusal, or even a child who gets overwhelmed and overstimulated and needs to get out for a walk and time to decompress? If that school somehow did not have a child with primary care needs, would it mean that classroom would not have an SNA under the circular?
I spoke to another SNA who works in one school and their child is in an autism unit in another school. In that unit there are two, possibly three, SNAs. About 40% of the time, the SNA's child could be in a mainstream class. The child does not have a primary care need. They have SNA support in the unit, but for them to have the most inclusive possible education, they are able to go into the mainstream class. However, there is no guarantee that they will have the SNA support once they go into the mainstream classroom. If the child is in a unit because they need to be there, they clearly need SNA support. Regardless of whether they have a primary care need, if the child can get their education in the mainstream classroom for whatever amount of time it is, that is the place where they should be.
We are reviewing the SNA workforce plan, the redeployment scheme and, thankfully, Circular 30/2014. Are we going to properly recognise the role of SNAs beyond the provision of primary care needs and into secondary care needs? When are we going to see those three reviews completed? When will schools be given certainty for the 2027-28 academic year?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I will come in and then hand over to my colleagues in the NCSE. I want to start off by saying that we very much value the role of the SNA, the work SNAs do and the contribution they make to school communities. They have grown to be an essential part of school communities, working in collaboration with special education teachers and mainstream teachers who look after the educational needs of children. We know that SNAs provide essential support to teachers by attending the care needs of the children.
As we have said, the evidence of our commitment to the SNA role is the number of SNAs that we now have in our schools and have grown over many years. They have grown by over 45% since 2020 and have more doubled since that circular was published. Recognising the value of SNAs is part of a wider expansion of special education in recent years. The SNA workforce development unit was established at the end of 2022. We are working on the SNA development plan, which includes a review of the circular.
One point I want to make is that the circular is quite comprehensive, as the members can see. The SNA workforce has more than doubled in the time since it was published, and it sets out a range of needs. Aligned to that, the SNA review process is an holistic examination of the needs in a school. As part of that work on the SNA workforce, we are reviewing the circular and that review has-----
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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When does the Department expect that work to be done?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
We expect that it will be published in the coming months as part of that work. It is not something we have done in isolation. It has been in close collaboration and consultation with stakeholders, including SNAs themselves. We have a working group that has met 15 times. Included in the working group is a trade union representative for SNAs. There is also a working SNA who provides the front-line experience of SNAs.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I assume that with the amount of SNAs it is talking to, the Department can clearly see that having their role restricted to primary care needs, first and foremost, does not reflect their daily work.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
If the Deputy reads through the circular, he will see that it outlines a range of needs and tasks that SNAs carry out.
All stakeholders have provided input into the content of that circular. The input, including that of the SNAs, will inform the final content. I want to hand over to the NCSE to give them-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are, unfortunately, out of time. We will get into this issue in further detail as we go on.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I will try to use my time as quickly as possible. How many children were notified to the NCSE before the October deadline and how many were notified after the October deadline?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking for the number, if Mr. Kearney has it.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How many of those children were already in school and looking for transfers, so to speak?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How many have an offer of an appropriate school place at this stage? How many do not?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kearney has the figures but cannot-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. Ms Corcoran mentioned unmet need. We do not have the figures. In the absence of the information, I am going to say that there are at least 1,200 children who do not have an offer of an appropriate school place. Not only that, they are not budgeted for. These are in addition to the 400 classes that are committed to. A memo was to go to the Cabinet.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I have a specific question. A memo is to go to the Cabinet. Is that for additional funding for buildings, SETs and SNAs? That is my question. If there are 1,200 children, and the witnesses can correct me if I am wrong in that regard, there is a requirement for an additional 400 SNAs. Are they going to be budgeted for?
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
The budget already provides for 3,000 special education places. We have that calculated as roughly 433 new special classes and 400 new special school places. We are already well on the way in terms of the 351 that have been sanctioned. The notification of parents process was brought forward from 1 February to 1 October. That is-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I will interrupt Mr. McLoughlin. Will the 433 accommodate all the children who have been notified to the NCSE? If not, what is the shortfall?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What is the number?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How far short of what is required will the 433 classes fall?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McLoughlin is not giving me the information I need. Will he give me some assurance that the plan that goes forward will account for additional SNAs to meet the additional demand?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. I do not need that. I thank Mr. McLoughlin. I will turn to Ms Corcoran. Some 1,017 reviews took place in the winter period. Can she assure us that all of those 1,017 cases where additional SNAs were recommended will get those SNAs? We are not just talking about the reviews and the 500 that were publicised, if you like.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On that specific question, the 1,017-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Hanlon. This is an important point. Does the Department accept that as part of the review, children who had the support of an SNA were going to have that support removed? That was what I saw and heard when I watched television and listened to people. It was about SNA support being removed from children who had it. Does the Department accept that was the case?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the children in question had secondary care needs or there is a particular definition that the Department has. The issue here was not about redeployment. It was about children who had the support of SNAs having that support removed. Does the Department accept that?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Everybody in the room should recognise that the NCSE and the Department are using exactly the same formula of words here. They are apologising for the upset and uncertainty that has been caused. In my opinion, there was no uncertainty. There was absolute certainty that SNAs were going to be cut from children who had a need and who had the support of SNAs. It was a deliberate and systematic approach by the witnesses' organisations, following their own logic and protocols. SNA support was being cut. That is what they should be apologising for-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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-----but they are not.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Not enough to meet the demand though. Is that not the point?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, you need to change the definition of-----
Ms Angela Corcoran:
-----going to examine the needs in a particular school. We understand that, as with teachers, children will move through the school. In the case of SNA support, some children will become more independent. Others may not. Children will be leaving primary school to go to secondary school-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I have to push back. The issue here is that children whose need had not changed at all were having SNA support removed. That is the issue.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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No, no-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am not disputing that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Listen to the answer.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I will give the Deputy an answer. Children's needs change on a weekly to monthly basis. It would be bad testimony to the SNA scheme to say there is no impact on children. I will say clearly in the context of the interpretation of circular 30/2014, and to come back to another question, that those needs are seen and responded to by a team. SNAs are not on their own in that regard.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Walsh does not accept-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Okay Deputy-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Walsh does not accept that SNAs-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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No, Deputy, we are way over time.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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-----were being withdrawn from children whose need-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Roche.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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-----had not changed.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are out of time. I am being fair to everyone. I call Deputy Roche. There will be a second round and Deputy O'Rourke can put some of those questions again.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are most welcome. They might not feel it at this minute but they are. In my previous life, before I came here, I sat on the board of the Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board. I had the great privilege of interviewing SNAs on a regular basis. I have to say that each time they came before our interviewing committee, they demonstrated the most professional capacity that anyone could ever present in terms of their ability to go and teach, and the love they had for the job. That was the first thing.
Like most people in this room, I felt great disappointment when that circular was issued and that bad news emanated. Ms Corcoran mentioned that the review or analysis was done in partnership with SNAs, principals, school patrons, management bodies, trade unions, advocacy groups and, most importantly, children and young people. Against the background of all of that dialogue or research, how is it that it was got so wrong?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I have outlined already that the overall level of need in the system is increasing and we are responding to it. We will have 25,000 SNAs by the end of this year, plus the 500 posts that we are retaining. The review process is necessary to look at the changing need profile in a school and to assign resources appropriately. As I said, and as my colleague in the NCSE outlined, children's needs change over time. SNAs provide excellent support. I, too, in the couple of years since I was working in special education, have met many SNAs. It is a matter of pride for them, as professionals, that children do progress, become more independent and need less SNA support. They see that as their core function, as is rightly the case. It is about providing the right level of support for children, but also allowing them to become more independent.
It is appropriate then that we assess the level of need in a school and amend the resources accordingly to meet that need. Sometimes that means an increase and sometimes it means a reduction. The point is that needs change over time as children become more independent or progress to post-primary level.
I might hand over to the NCSE.
Mr. John Kearney:
The Deputy's experience in the education and training board, ETB, sector resonates with me. I am from the ETB sector as well. I remember the dark days of being a principal of a then vocational education committee, VEC, school and there was no redeployment in place.
With the years, as the Deputy himself would have seen in the interviewing with the ETBs, there was a redeployment panel in place and there has been a lot of hurt and uncertainty. The NCSE very much recognises its role and responsibility in relation to that but this was about professionalising. It was about sustaining and professionalising that care and commitment the Deputy saw on the interview boards.
The NCSE thoroughly welcomes the SNA redeployment panel. The privileges that SNAs have with ETBs should be circulated right around the country to each SNA. I think everybody agrees in principle there should be a SNA redeployment panel - there are changing and evolving needs - while securing the employment of SNAs.
We have contributed to all 55 meetings in relation to the SNA workforce development to professionalise it. We did not get it completely wrong because we are trying to get it right. It is all with a view to professionalising the workforce, acknowledging those care concerns and those characteristics that the Deputy saw in the interview panels, giving it the professionalism that it rightly deserves and, ultimately, offering a comprehensive support structure to young children in this country.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Most of us here would agree and accept that SNAs invest heavily in themselves in terms of their education and their preparedness and it is only right and fair that they would be given that job security. The intention and, I suppose, the motivation behind this was to do just that. That is something that really needed to be done. Nobody should feel that they are disposable as soon as a student cohort leaves a school. They should have meaningful job security. If the intention was that, it is good.
Maybe somewhere outside of that the messaging was not right. If we stand for anything, we have to accept that it is no harm to make a mistake and to be able to correct it.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That comes across in both statements. I very much take that. God knows, none of us is beyond making a mistake and if we are, we are full of ourselves.
We heard about the pause and then we heard about nothing happening and no threats to school places in 2025-2026 and 2026-2027. Can we get certainty today that nobody will be in that dilemma again in terms of the fear of losing an SNA in a school because that is paramount? That is what we are trying to get to.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
As Government has outlined, there is a number of steps that have to be taken first. They are the important ones before we can look at any further decisions. These are: the redeployment scheme, the review of the circular and the SNA work for development scheme.
It probably is the view that there will always be a need for redeployment to some degree. It is really important going forward. We, obviously, have to see the outcome of those processes and then, going forward, see what does that mean in terms of making sure it is communicated effectively, looking at the role and everything else holistically before you can say that.
We expect redeployment to be a feature. Movement of resources has always been a feature. It is just a matter of trying to see what happens after that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Hanlon. Next up is Senator Scahill.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses today on their opening statements. I welcome back those who have been with us previously.
I will follow on what has been said by some of the previous speakers. Following the last couple of weeks, we do not want the message to lose its meaning. The role of the SNAs is exceptionally important within our schools and we really appreciate the job that they do within our schools and the opportunity that they give to our students.
Like so many of the committee members there today, over the last couple of weeks, rather than forwarding on emails to the Department and the NCSE, I have actively been going out and meeting SNAs and schools on the ground because you do not get a full appreciation of the situation until you visit each individual school and understand its lived experience and what it is managing within the school environment. That has been important.
I would like to ask the witnesses about the role of the special educational needs organiser, SENO, and the importance of the recommendation of the SENO. Could they expand on that for us so that we understand their recommendations and the process that goes through? If Mr. Kearney or Ms Corcoran wants to do that, I do not mind who takes that.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I thank the Senator for his question. To go back on that, the Senator is dead right that getting into schools, building relationships with principals and seeing at front face is what the NCSE is all about. In this regard, our 140 front-line staff have spent the last two years building those relationships, speaking to SNAs within schools and speaking to teachers. I emphasise the role of the SNA in that team approach within a school. They are highly valued in that context, alongside the special education teacher and alongside the teacher. It is that collaborative approach that works, that children get the right intervention from the right professional at the right time and, as I said earlier, those needs change over time.
In relation to the role of the SENO, I was one. I was a teacher, and from a psychology background. The NCSE has lived and breathed SNA reviews for the past 20 years. Of course, there was a pause in 2020 in relation to that and we accept it.
The role of the SENO has not changed over time, but they perform different tasks in relation to the review. This year, we were able to get them out into over 1,017 schools to get to know those children, to get to know those teachers, to get as much feedback as they could and to gather that rich data on those varying needs. On the place of the child's independence, one should remember support comes with independence and we want to see children who are well adjusted and supported to become independent valued members of society just like their peers so they are not in a dependency state for ever. We accept that there are very complex children out there who will always continue to need SNA supports and that is a given. The role of the SENO is to try to gather all of that information and to represent the profile of that school. They are humans themselves who care as much about children, and particular children with disability, as the professionals who are working with the children who care about disability. They want to get it right and they do get it right, and they bring it back to our national teams. We treat this process with absolute due diligence. We do not let a detail of that school go missing. We do not let a detail of practice go missing. We make sure that we get the full lens on the child in the context of the school and if there are exceptional circumstances within that school, that is all taken into account.
To address earlier questions in relation to the circular itself, that circular is maybe one of the best and one of the worst interpreted and understood circulars. It allows for so much of children's care needs to be represented and taken into account. That is everything from what was described, from the child who needs to leave the class to the child who needs to stay. We always reference the physical mobility but it is way broader than that. If a child has communication needs, that is recognised within that circular. It actually captures more than is understood. There is an understanding that it only captures the physical piece. It does way more than that and our SENOs capture that as accurately as they can.
To fully answer the Senator's question, there are approximately 20 steps to that SNA process and an operational governance framework right on top of it. It goes right back into teams who are senior disability experts who, themselves, can make a decision and see, look at that data, analyse it and make sure we got it right. If we did not get it right, there are different people to have a look at that appeal, and if we did not get the process right, there are independent professionals outside of the NCSE who will tell us we did not get it right.
It is a holistic approach. We have to take into account the child's independence alongside their need, their changing needs over time, and their right to their teacher - their right to the right professionals just like every other child within the school context.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am delighted that Ms Walsh has given the SENOs such an enthusiastic promotion there and I thank her for that. My understanding is each school is individual, every situation is individual and that is why you need someone on the ground, such as the SENO, who can understand the individual needs. Generally, these needs do not fit within certain parameters and it is good to see that somebody is looking at them individually. If a SENO makes a resounding recommendation for additional support, how does the decision or the process happen then that such support is not provided?
Ms Helen Walsh:
SENOs do not make individual recommendations on the basis of support. Their duty is to make sure the team gets the clearest picture of the child and school. SNAs are not allocated to individual children; they are allocated to a school so there is always capacity within a school to move SNA posts around and that is what schools do. That is just standard practice. In former years, a SENO might have made a recommendation about a single post. That does not work in terms of operational governance. The NCSE has to get a full lens nationally. Our SENOs inform on a particular school and those students and if the panel is in any doubt, it asks the SENO for his or her expert input to see whether we are missing anything or whether there is anything we have not captured. It is an absolutely robust process to make sure we do not get it wrong.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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We constantly recommend to people that they appeal recommendations if they are not happy with them. Does the NCSE have any information on the percentage of successful outcomes from appeal?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Please be brief if that is possible, because of the time.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their statements. Ms Corcoran said that Circular 0030/2014 is now being reviewed and will possibly be updated. Why was that not done first, before this review? It would have made sense. It is like putting the cart before the horse. As it is from 2014, it probably needs to be reviewed and updated at this stage anyway.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The first point is, as I said earlier, the 2014 circular has served us well. The number of SNAs in our system has doubled since 2014 when it was published. It is a comprehensive circular. There is a lot in it. It is 28 pages long. It covers every scenario. However, we recognise that the SNA workforce and special education have changed somewhat. Consequently, as part of the work on the SNA workforce plan, we are reviewing the circular. The working group includes SNAs, school management bodies and various stakeholders and the examination has involved going back to basics, back to the drawing board, looking at the SNA role in schools and how it interacts with other roles in the schools, including the children, teachers, special education teachers they collaborate with and-----
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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There was alarm in the schools that received a review where there was going to be a cut in the SNA allocation. The reason there was alarm was that the principals, teachers and SNAs realised that the cut to their SNA allocation meant they would have to try to manage on a much smaller number and they knew with the number of students in their schools that they could not do so. There were students in those schools who had SNA access and suddenly the schools were notified the allocation was being cut. It is up to the principal to allocate the SNAs. If we trust them to do that, we should trust them to tell us when they need a certain allocation and not cut it.
Senator Scahill asked about the role of the SENOs and that was to be my next question. For a time when I was teaching I was SEN co-ordinator and I knew the SENO well and the SENO knew the children in the school, including those transitioning from primary to secondary school and knew their parents. I talk to parents now and they do not know who the SENO is. There is no interaction. It was said that there are 120 SENOs and there are 3,700-----
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, we are talking about one SENO per thirty-something schools. It is not possible for one person to know all the children with additional needs in those schools. We need more SENOs, do we not? We need a lot more. Teachers and SNAs tell us that a SENO will come to the school on a rare occasion and sit in the room for perhaps an hour, might not even discuss the child with the SNA who is with that child all day or with the teacher in the classroom and will make a decision on whether that child needs SNA support. That needs to be reviewed.
Ms Helen Walsh:
As a former SENO, I had 79 schools across Dublin 1, 3, 9 and 11 and I knew the children in the schools. I made it my business to know them. I knew the teachers and principals and I knew when there was a new principal to get out to them to make sure I knew them. I appreciate the respect the Senator has shown to the importance of the role of the SENOs, but SENOs have gone, in some cases, from having 50 schools down to having 25. In the days when I had 79 schools, I got around and did my job, and SENOs are doing exactly that.
On parents, last year, on special class places alone, SENOs catered for at least 30,000 interactions with parents. We do not shirk from engaging with parents. The parental questionnaire was also available. We did not insist on it, because we know parents have busy lives, but we welcome parental input. We are open to meeting and listening to parents at any point in time to understand a child better because we appreciate that a child's care needs at home may present differently from how they do in school and we have to try to triangulate that information. It is a core feature of our process.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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That is not the feedback we are getting from schools and parents. I am not saying all SENOs are the same. It is obvious they are not. There will always be people who are better at the job than others. However, 79 schools with a number of children in each school is a huge workload.
Ms Helen Walsh:
Nobody has 79 schools now. Everyone is down to between 25 to 50, depending on whether it is a rural area with smaller schools, and demographics, but I will not go into that. SENOs are invaluable, the quality of the information they bring back is absolutely invaluable and the relationships they build with schools and parents are invaluable and we can always do better on that. We cannot stand here and say we have it nailed. We absolutely want to get out and meet parents more often and we have done that in recent years. In fact, relationship building has been at the heart of the NCSE's work in recent years, as is making sure parents know us. We get out to as many groups, community groups and CDNT team meetings as we possibly can.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I presume the recommendation to cut the SNA allocation in some schools was based on what the SENOs reported back. They must have got it wrong because the outcry from schools said they absolutely could not manage on a reduced SNA allocation when there were children in their schools who currently have access and will lose that. I know it has been rowed back on, but there was total alarm and it was genuine. I do not believe schools look for SNA allocation when they do not need it. I genuinely do not believe that. We know the role. The SNA helps everyone in the classroom, because if an SNA is helping a student in a classroom, the teacher can get on with teaching the remainder of the class. If there is an issue with-----
Mr. John Kearney:
It is useful to put this into perspective. We have conducted close to 3,500 SNA reviews in the past three years and 1,000 in the past 12 months. Of the correspondence to schools, some 60% identified no change or an additional allocation of SNAs. Of the remaining 40%, 60% of the schools were to lose one post and another 27% were to lose fewer than two posts. There were outliers and seven schools were to lose more than three SNAs. In hindsight, a better change management engagement programme with those schools should have been taken on board. However, this was about the minimal change from the recommendations, with a view to ensuring that with movement of students. Some 140,000 students move from one setting to another during the course of the year, whether it is additional students coming into primary schools, primary school pupils going to post-primary school or students leaving post-primary school. It was in a context.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Please be brief.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are out of time.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Please indulge me if I am boiling cabbage twice by raising stuff that might have been dealt with while I was in the House for a Commencement matter I had to attend. I will address my first question to Mr. Kearney and Ms Walsh as it relates to the NCSE. For my information, when was the NCSE set up? In the year it was set up, what was the complement of staff and the annual budget?
Mr. John Kearney:
We can tell the Senator the year it was set up. There is a bit of a history lesson there. The organisation was established 22 years ago, in 2004. My colleague, Ms Walsh, was one of the SENOs who joined the workforce on that particular day. There were 90 staff in place. I can come back with the budget details.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Let us march forward then to láthair na huaire. What is the complement of staff and what is the annual budget now?
Mr. John Kearney:
The annual budget is quite sizeable. It comes close to €40 million and continues to change and evolve with additional workforce added. Three years ago was a significant milestone for the organisation. There was a workforce of approximately 220 people. The demand in special education-----
Joe Conway (Independent)
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It is in excess of that now.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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It is in excess of 500.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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In the intervening 22 years, how many of the types of assessment we have seen in the last few weeks been done? Are they done on an annual basis?
Mr. John Kearney:
-----was conducting reviews. They were part and parcel of it. Some years. there was an increased SNA allocation. Other years, there was none. The shortcoming there was that those SNAs were actually losing their posts, as such. We have conducted roughly 1,000 SNA reviews this year. We did 1,400 last year and 900 the year before. It has been 3,500 over the last four years. We have a footprint in every single schooling community in the country. We build up a profile of the need, and the emerging need in other schools as well.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I am sorry, but the time is really short and I have a few questions to ask. When the NCSE announced the allocations for 2027 a few weeks ago that caused such a furore, did it do so off its own bat or did it get the say-so from the Minister?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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That is not what I asked. Did the NCSE get the say-so or imprimatur of the-----
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Did the NCSE do that subsequently or did it get permission from the Department to do it? Looking at it from the outside, that seems to be the crux of the matter. The Minister for education barely had her legs under the desk at that stage. On the Monday, she was saying that everything was hunky-dory and there would be an increased budget and provision. Exactly 24 hours later, she was saying au contraire. I would like to know what is at the nub of that disjoint there.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
From a departmental perspective, I will try to give some context to that. The redeployment scheme announcement was, I think, in April 2025. Thereafter, there was the SNA allocation circular, which was consulted on and everyone was briefed and signed off on it. It was that circular that effectively stated that the NCSE would be going into schools and doing the holistic examination of the needs in the schools and talked about how the outcomes could go up, stay the same or go down. Therefore-----
Joe Conway (Independent)
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The fundamental information I am trying to ascertain is whether the Minister know a priori that the NCSE was issuing that. If you listen to The Irish Times "Inside Politics" podcast, it stated that principals received a one-line email announcing their provision for 2027. I would say there is a bit of exaggeration - maybe the witnesses can tell me - but if that happened and the Minister was just getting her shopping bag ready for going into work in the Department, is it an unhappy coincidence that this was issued before the Minister got herself settled into the Department?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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The time is very tight.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
I can try to do it in 20 seconds. Effectively, the circular was signed off on, so everybody understood that the NCSE was going to be going into schools from the autumn to do reviews in schools and that outcomes would be given to schools on that basis. As we understood it, it was an operational matter for the NCSE to carry out those reviews. It is the one that goes into schools, determines what the allocation might, whether the schools get increases or whatever, and sends out communications to schools on that. It was felt that it was more an operational issue for the NCSE. From an administrative point of view, there was a lot of backlash and we talked about that-----
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I know the Cathaoirleach is going to shout at me. I will ask one short question. Henceforth, will there be so-called one-liners to principals?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I am really glad to hear that.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I actually had a similar question in mind. The Minister should be here because the buck stops with the Minister for education. Was it her who said to send that circular or was it the Department? I am referring to the circular that we have been asking about for the past five minutes.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The Department would draft it and send it to the Minister to be signed off on.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It was coming from the Department but the Minister knew about it.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The Minister did know about the review.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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We clarified that she did sign off on it and the NCSE had to implement it. It passed down then to be implemented.
I have an issue with the Minister not being here. I know she could not make the last meeting. It is very easy for Government Members to chastise all of the witnesses when the Minister is actually politically responsible.
How and ever, I want to raise three particular issues. Parents and SNAs in the school communities have been saying how important SNAs are to students, but also that this review was done when special classes and special buildings were not even ready. The witnesses are saying that they always do reviews and the SENOs know everyone in the schools, that is not the information provided at any meeting I have been at in Dublin 15. In fact, the NCSE has been very far behind what the needs are in the area. It is a growing area, as the witnesses know. The Department and the NCSE seem to be very quick off the mark to potentially cut SNAs but are not quick off the mark when they have been told for years that resources are needed by schools.
I have a letter from a parent from St. Francis Xavier's in Castleknock in Dublin 15. Their son is one of four students from the same autism class without any confirmed placement for September. Those are four people who do not have a secondary school place in Dublin 15. Are the Department and NCSE aware of that, for example? What steps are they taking to get appropriate placements for September for that school? How can local secondary schools be supported and encouraged to open additional autism classes without delay? How can the Department of education and the NCSE act faster where this clear need has been identified? They are very quick to review SNAs, but they have known for ages that loads of students are going to move from autism classes in primary with nothing in place for secondary. I will give the witnesses a chance to answer that, then ask one more question.
Mr. John Kearney:
I thank the Deputy. There was a time we did not know all students. Two years ago, we did not know students around the country that were wishing to enrol in special classes. In fact, we did not know 50% of them on average. With the strengthening of circulars over the last two years, we have got to the situation where we know every single child who is looking for a special class and a special school place. That means we have the exact data as it pertains to Dublin 15. My colleague, Ms Walsh, will now address the Deputy's specific query in relation to the school she referenced.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I will not speak to the individual school, but the Deputy is right. We have known the need in Dublin 15 for quite a long time. We did not start planning for that yesterday. We started planning for Dublin 15 at least a year ago, if not before that. The NCSE has an absolutely accurate lens on the accommodation in every single one of those 36 schools across Dublin 15. We know we are working with four more post-primary schools. The Department is planning on building a unit. It is trying to scope accommodation in relation to that for post-primary parents to reassure them that we know of all of them. For the primary schools, we know we have done a significant amount of work there in sanctioning classes, two as of last Monday, with three more primary schools hopefully ready to go.
In relation to the parental piece, the NCSE with the principals in Dublin 15 has led out single-handedly on the ACAP pilot to make things easier for parents in Dublin 15 and ensure they do not have to go through the administrative burden they did in other years. We saw that and responded to it. I compliment the principals in Dublin 15, the parents who worked with us and the local team who did this hand in hand to make sure it works well.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I will ask about the Dublin 15 special needs review in a second. This is happening in all schools; it is not just Dublin 15. What is going to happen to those four students in September?
Ms Helen Walsh:
We are not finished with special class planning in Dublin 15. There are a couple of counties where we are close to finishing but we continue to move to progress and secure further classes. The NCSE will work with all of the schools that may not want to open a class to ensure they do. For those four children alongside other children, we are working to create more places, more special class places and more special school places in Dublin 15 and beyond.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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We can see how annoyed parents are, though. They see SNAs being taken away and children without help.
The Dublin 15 task force on special education, which we all heard about for many years, arose because parents protested and went onto the streets with their children and large photographs, etc. When will that report be published? What were the recommendations and when will they be implemented?
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
The Minister, Deputy Naughton, initiated that task force. It is expected the report will be published shortly. The main recommendations are about greater linkages between the early years sector, the NCSE and us in terms of planning, more funding for school buildings and capital funding. There were issues around allowances, particularly for principals of special schools and teachers working in the special education sector more generally. The unions have taken that up through local public sector pay bargaining. There were other recommendations about more intensive engagement with schools at local level, as the NCSE has outlined.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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"Shortly" - is that in the next couple of months?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will get Mr. McLoughlin in again. I hope to have a second round. I am sorry; I have to keep the times moving. On a point raised by Deputy Coppinger, of course it is important the Minister come before the committee. For clarity and in defence of the committee and our work, an invite was sent on 25 February. A reminder was sent on 3 March. We are still awaiting a response. The date we have suggested for the Minister to be here is Wednesday, 18 March, allowing for non-sitting days. We await a response. I hope that meeting will happen. It is essential that it happen.
I thank the witnesses again for being here today. I too was flabbergasted because we were getting this glossy brief indicating that there would be 1,700 new SNAs for September 2026. Lo and behold, that is not what transpired. We were getting phone calls and emails from schools that had received communication about SNA posts being lost. Like many, I went out and met schools. I have been trying to dig deep to find out what exactly went on. Circular 32/2025, which has been mentioned , issued on 28 May of last year. Version 1.3 of the guidelines - there have been a few versions - issued to schools in September. Sometimes the devil is in the detail. The NCSE guidelines state:
NCSE reviews are conducted on a whole school basis combining a review of all SNA posts in the school. Schools will be resourced on a whole school allocation basis. Schools are expected to deploy SNA posts to their mainstream or special class based on the greatest level of need across the student population.
That is devastating. We can come up with 100 reasons a school should have special classes, and I strongly believe in this, but this little detail says to me that a school that heretofore had one or two SNAs might do the right thing and open up a special class with a teacher and two SNAs. In that special class, there will be six students, one teacher and two SNAs. The school might have done all the right things but suddenly, unintentionally, that class is now counted within this review. What was gained by opening up a special class now becomes subject to the review and suddenly the rhetoric becomes one of there being too many SNAs.
Ms Helen Walsh:
A clarification document that went out in October explained that in further detail. The SNAs within a special class are ring-fenced. The two SNA posts are never touched in a whole-school review. If, for example, needs arose within that special class - they change over time - and an additional post was placed in there, that post would be subject to review but the two core SNA posts needed in that special class would not be.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am reading the NCSE's own guidelines. This was the pretext. These reviews happened in September, October, November and December. The guidelines state that the SENO calling out will consider the whole school, not just separate silos, meaning the main school population and those in the special class, and it will look at the whole school. That is a diminution of what the school has.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I again draw the Cathaoirleach's attention to the October clarification document, which was placed on the NCSE website to indicate the ring-fencing. Any confusion in relation to that had to be clarified clearly such that those two posts are not touched within an overall review. We do not penalise schools for opening special classes; in fact, the opposite is the case. We know that in those classes there are children with very complex needs and sometimes mainstream will deploy right in there when the needs are not there, but those two posts are ring-fenced.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Do the witnesses assist the Minister with responding to parliamentary questions?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We get responses a week after we submit questions. I have not been here a long time - six years - but when we ask questions, some are ruled out of order and some are answered really well. For some, you might not be happy with the answer. Yesterday was the first time I have ever seen a case of a parliamentary question I submitted having been rewritten. Someone put a whole different set of language in and gave an answer that was irrelevant to the whole thing. I have complained to the Ceann Comhairle. I will ask the question here because I am sure the answer lies in this room. What internal communications have happened between the Department and the NCSE in the past six or seven months? It does not equate that there would be 1,700 new SNAs, yet it is cut, cut, cut. It does not equate with the guideline that went out. I am looking at version 1.3 and Ms Walsh is telling me there was a version 1.4. What internal communication has there been? I know of SENOs who called out to schools and informally said as they were leaving that everything would be fine and things would be grand. Things were looking good and then suddenly the letter came. Some schools were even expecting an increase in SNAs and then they got a reduction. Did something slide from one unit to the other to say it had to cut a number of SNAs by region?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Was the word "reduction" ever used in those internal communications?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is there such a thing as regional or county quotas?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have raised this next point before. I thought my concerns had been assuaged but they have not. NEPS are educational psychologists. I have respect for SENOs, as do others in the room. Some of them are educational psychologists and some are not. There are different pathways to the career and I am respectful of that. Like several others in the room, I am a primary school teacher by profession. Some things would come to my desk and I had the professionalism, based on my years in Marcy Immaculate College, to challenge them or whatever but I was never an educational psychologist. I would never push back on an educational psychologist's report. Increasingly, there are recommendations for assistive technology and recommendations from NEPS psychologists that a given child needs an SNA. We are increasingly seeing SENOs looking at these reports and quashing them. I am sorry if I am repeating myself but none of us would go down to the surgical theatre in a hospital and start telling a surgeon that we did not agree with their diagnostics or with what they were doing with their surgical knife because we are not qualified to do so, yet that is common practice in this context. SENOs have been allowed to play God with situations in local schools. There is a legal point here. I know of one father who is a senior counsel and when his child was threatened with their SNA being cut a few years ago, he wrote a stinker of a legal letter. You would want to have seen how quickly everyone backed down.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I can speak to the protocol we have with NEPS. The NCSE is the agency with statutory responsibility to review. It gathers the expertise not just from psychologists, who are one source of information, but also teachers. They are also a professional and so are SNAs. We engage with parents also. The NCSE engages with NEPS. It is one source of information for us. The protocol is very clear in that it does not make recommendations for individual children. On SENOs and their expertise, this question was raised again. Rather than us undermining the role of the SENO or their professionalism, I would emphasise that they have the expertise to do what they need to in every school review.
It is not common practice, as the Cathaoirleach suggested. We are aware of one case across the country where the issue arose and it was dealt with directly.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of many in a geographic area.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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No, I have to be equal to-----
Mr. John Kearney:
I need to address this issue in terms of SENOs playing God. It has been a very stressful time for the organisation. Our SENOs had a circular to implement. They did 1,000 SNA reviews. They are quite upset with what has happened because our relationship with parents and schools has thrived under very challenging circumstances. We have a footprint in every school. Saying SENOS are playing God with schools is not helpful. In the past three or four weeks, SENOs have been under immense pressure. They see parents protesting and are upset about that. Equally, they are themselves victims of social media campaigns. It is a difficult, challenging job for all of us but the language has to be nuanced in terms of the professionalism SENOs bring and have brought for the past 22 years to this State, as well as their integrity, honesty and forthrightness. For every complaint you get, you will get ten confirmations, which will not be in a public forum, of the quality of the work they do.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am over time but I must qualify what I have said out of fairness. I have seen many fine and reasonable SENO decisions. It is the role of a SENO to act on a recommendation for assistive technology. Too often, however, I have seen SENOs strike out and say an unfortunate child who is struggling through eight years of primary school does not need a laptop. I have seen that far too many times. In big schools, the child in need of a special needs assistant could be anyone because the school is so big, but in a very small school where the whole enrolment is in double digits, there is probably only one or two children in there with recommendations from NEPS or private education psychologists. It is clear who those children are, yet we are having people come into schools who are not educational psychologists. They have very fine qualifications but they are overriding educational psychologists and that is wrong.
I know all about the case going back seven years because I was party to it. When the legal letter went in asking if the SENO was qualified to override it, there was a backdown very quickly.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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On a point of order, it is three and a half minutes over, so just to be fair to everybody else-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, it is the Deputy's time.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today. It is a very tense meeting for everybody involved and the reason it is tense is everybody cares. Everybody wants the best for the children of this country. Recent weeks have damaged the trust parents and education professionals have in the Department and the NCSE. It has damaged the Government and has damaged many people. Ultimately, if young people do not have the support they need, they will be the ones who are damaged. We need to take stock of that. When mistakes are made, we need to learn from them. This is a great opportunity for us to learn from mistakes. We want the best for our education system. To that end, I do not want to know about what will happen "in the coming months". The witnesses were before the committee last September and said the document for the SNA workforce development plan was going to be issued to the Minister. Now they are saying it will be in the coming months. I would like a date, please.
I have heard from so many people that the Relate document is fantastic. Why is it not put on a circular footing so it can be rolled out with resources and training for everybody involved?
On a point of clarification with regard to Circular 30/14, the summary states: "It provides details of the primary care needs for which SNA support will usually be provided and details the types of secondary care associated tasks which SNAs may often perform, but only once they have been allocated on the basis of a requirement to provide for primary care needs." That nuance has been lost in translation. The primary care needs are ultimately central but if there is a chance to do the other ones, then they can be done. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding from many people is the reviews focus primarily on making sure the primary care needs are met and may then get to the secondary tasks. However, there has been an evolution in what SNAs do on the ground, which will feed into the SNA workforce and which means the secondary ones should be as important as the primary.
We need to look at inclusive education and we need to move on from the word "special". It is outdated. This is our opportunity. Because we are in a learning phase, we can move on and use different language.
I saw the list provided for the schools and thank the witnesses for that. A number of schools were told last year they would get a place but have not been on the announcement lists yet. Will there be another announcement list? Will the ones who were told verbally last year that they would get it be on the list? Are any private schools opening special schools in this country? If they get State funding for whatever it is, they need to be under sustained pressure like every other school that is willing to open special schools. Just because you can pay for education, it does not mean your child does not have an additional need. Other children may need to go to their nearest school for support.
What will happen to the mild general learning disability schools? They are nervous about how all this will impact on them.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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What percentage of the work has been done?
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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How long did it take to get the 90% done?
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I know all that. I just need the date. I really need to know because we are six months down-----
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Will it be by June?
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Ms Corcoran.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
A couple of questions were asked about new provision and mild special schools. There is a new tranche every two to three weeks and it is our intention that more classes will be announced pretty soon. We are working closely with school patron bodies and school management bodies to get those over the line.
On private schools, there is at least one private school in Cork operating two classes. There is a concentration of private fee-charging schools in south Dublin but for the moment we are working with the free scheme schools to open classes. We have been talking to management bodies about how that model might look in the fee-charging sector. There would be no fees for students. They would have to work with NCSE to make sure they are taking local children and all of that. That work is progressing but it is more likely to be in September 2027.
On mild special schools, I will be clear because I know there are concerns. There is absolutely nobody suggesting those schools would close or anything. There was some concern that might happen. We want to work with those schools to broaden their designation and broaden the profile of student they support on a gradual-----
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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That is the fear. It is not that they will close; it is that they will be broadened so the children they work with so well will be lost in that system.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
They should not be fearful. There are two things we are seeing with a lot of the children enrolling in mild special schools. It is at that key transition point from primary to post-primary. When we talk to parents, it is often the lack of a post-primary special class in the local area that is forcing them to go the special school route. The more post-primary special classes we open, the better. Parents also come to us with a special school recommendation. There is a local special school and it is hard for parents to understand it is only for children within a narrow IQ band. We need to do more.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the officials for being here. The role of the SNA is at the heart of what we are discussing and what has happened in the past couple of weeks. I have been listening to the officials talk about Circular 30/2014, and defend it. Do they believe we need to look again at the circular 12 years on?
Ms Helen Walsh:
It seems to be the circular is revised every 12 years because the original circular was Circular 07/2002 and listening to the needs of the system at that time it broadened to Circular 30/14. It is fair to say we are in a listening and a learning space to work with the best of what is in Circular 30/2014 and to consider it. I cannot speak for the Department because I do not write the circulars and will hand over to my colleagues there but to touch off the point made by Deputy Cummins, primary care needs have been misunderstood in certain ways and secondary care needs have been misunderstood in certain ways. When SENOs go in to review, they do not cut an allocation down to the bone. We absolutely look at the overall sense of what SNAs are doing within the school context. Of course, an allocation is fundamentally based on the primary care needs but we also allow for secondary care needs.
In terms of the direction of the circular, I will have to hand over to the Department on that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The question is whether Ms Walsh thinks the application of Circular 30/2014 has contributed to what has happened in the last couple of weeks.
Ms Helen Walsh:
The circular itself probably has not but we reviewed schools from 2005 to 2020 and it was perfectly understood under both the original circular and the second circular that arose in that time that that post would drop, ultimately, from schools. We have gone from 2020 to 2026 where there have been no cuts, so there have been guarantees there would be no changes to allocations and thus to some extent what has happened here is on foot of the fact there has been no change for quite some time. I cannot say the circular contributed to it but we know practice in schools has changed and evolved over that particular time.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The perception is, which we discussed in September when the officials were last here, Circular 30/2014 is being applied in a way that has not been done before and that there is a gap between the policy and the practice of what is happening in schools. However, Ms Walsh is saying she does not believe that to be true and that this is purely about catching up, that the needs of schools are changing and that this review reflects that.
Ms Helen Walsh:
Our practice in schools, in terms of the way we allocate posts, has not changed. NCSE has regarded the same principles of student support primary care needs according to the circular absolutely diligently, alongside the independence and the role of the SNA within the broader context of education, which is worth discussing, the teacher and the 15,200 SET teachers in the sector who do a phenomenal role. SNAs play one part of that. The way in which NCSE has reviewed schools must remain faithful to circular and we have not changed in that but we accept the practice has changed at school level.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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This is really important because that is not the perception on this side of the table and that was clearly communicated when we were here in November as well. We focused on the deadline for reviews that was included in the information sent to schools. We spoke about this general allocation that seemed to be moving away from where we would look at the mainstream needs and then the special classes and that there was now a general approach to school needs. We spoke about the circular and the fact we are really concerned there is an overemphasis on primary care needs where the behavioural needs or all the other work the SNAs do is not being taken into consideration. We spoke about how the workforce development plan would address some of that. Then of course we have had the announcements with schools about losing SNAs. I hope the officials can see from our perspective that those concerns stood and still stand.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I accept that and what I would say to it is the circular itself has been possibly misinterpreted over the past couple of years in terms of what it means because behavioural needs are included in it. Children with autism who have communication needs are included. If their care needs are at the level, if it is beyond a whole-school approach or if a child has intermittent care needs, the NCSE is in there to see that and observe that. If a child has care needs across the whole school day, there will be an SNA in that classroom. We are bound by the circular but the circular is broader than is understood. It is so broad that it has allowed the growth to go from 10,000 to 25,000 SNAs. Maybe this is the piece that tends to get missed in terms of the review but we should look at this from a child's perspective. We are all here, as has been said, to ensure the child with a disability has the right access and supports, as with any other child. They also have the right to the right intervention, the right support and the right professional working with them. They also have a right to their teacher teaching them. They also have a right to SMART targets and student support plans. They have a right for somebody to have an eye on them not just today but with an eye on their independence and the level of skills that will make them absolutely meaningful people within the workforce or further education right after they leave. We therefore take a broader perspective on that and we would say if you do not have the inclusion of the child in activities we cannot have children taken out of classes for all sorts of breaks. We have to have that planning for the child for their best outcomes. There are practice implications of course and that has changed over time, but if we take our focus off the child and the appropriate intervention we will have lost something.
Mr. John Kearney:
I reassure the Deputy that we are very much in listening mode and looking to the revision of the circular itself. We really welcome the SNA redeployment panel and the SNA workforce plan, as well as the view she has expressed and those of the wider committee, as we move forward with this.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Kearney.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Can I just quickly ask about schools-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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No, we are not-----
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----that have been told they are getting additional SNAs.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Dempsey.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Are they going to get them?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are going to have a second round. I am sorry about that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know you had a couple of minutes yourself, a Chathaoirligh, but I was taking 15 seconds.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kearney had to assert a point which I responded to. I am going to forgo my speaking in the second round but the Deputy will have a chance that I will not have so she can put her specific questions then and I will be fair to everyone.
Deputy Dempsey, sé nóiméad le do thoil.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Can you reset my time, please?
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Do not be scared.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Kearney very much. I thank the officials for being here. My colleagues have articulated the anger and frustration we all saw locally and are still experiencing. I can only add my voice to those asking the officials to please get on with these reviews through collaboration and engagement with our SNAs, who are so important to us, and to get it done in a timely fashion and rebuild that trust.
I want to raise an equally important topic, which is schools that are crying out for special classes but that have not been allocated them yet. I will give two examples. One of them is St. Fiach's National School in Ballinacree, which the officials know. I have been dealing with Ciara, the principal there, since October and it is a really difficult situation. She is running an unauthorised class because children were being traumatised by what they were witnessing. Both sets of children were being traumatised, namely, the ones who need the special class environment and the mainstream pupils. They were all being traumatised. There are injuries being caused regularly and there are flight risks. The school was able to get an SNA review and it did not get a full post; it got 0.8 of a post. That is going to be some help but the school cannot get an SET review mid-year. They have the concrete pad on-site that a classroom could be put on and that teaching principal is spending all her time in that classroom to the detriment of the rest of the school. I wanted to put that case forward.
The second one is Cul Ronain in Ballivor. Again, the principal reached out to me yesterday. She has all the qualifications, all the ability in the world and has parents reaching out to her every day saying their child has no place in September. I wanted to ask the officials about those two specific cases. More generally, there are more classes to come.
I know I will not be told where more will be delivered but is Meath on that list?
Mr. John Kearney:
I would say to every Oireachtas Member that every county in Ireland is being considered for special classes. We are more in tune with our planning than ever. As I mentioned, two years ago, we did not actually know the children who were coming to us. We now have a full national lens on that. We are ahead of time in terms of planning and delivery. We now have 351 special classes delivered. We are well aware of the two schools in Meath the Deputy referred to. They are very much factored in to our ongoing engagements with the individual schools and the Department in terms of progressing the number of special classes that are required.
On the specific SET review, an annual circular issues the special education teacher allocation. Associated with that is a review phase and there will be an opportunity for the school, which we will gladly pick up in the special education review process for the school.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Another issue was raised with me twice this week. It relates to Scoil Mhuire, An Chúil, and Clonmellon National School, which is actually in Westmeath but my child attended that school for a couple of years. I have a keen interest in these schools, both of which have been allocated special classes. On the other side, they have lost a teacher because of their school numbers. In both those schools, the special class is going to go into the classroom that has been vacated by the teacher, but they expect their numbers to go back to normal for the next school year. They are very concerned, and we should be very concerned that a special class would be run in a classroom one year and then alternative accommodation may be needed to be found for it the following year because teacher numbers have increased. It sets a bad example to our children and the school community when this is how we treat a special class - that we will move it to a mainstream class as and when needed. What are the thoughts of the NCSE or the Department on that?
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
I can come in on this. I presume they are two primary schools. By and large, primary school enrolments are dropping. We can look at the detail but it would be a surprise because they are not in large urban areas. It would be surprising that the mainstream numbers would be increasing again for September 2027. We can definitely look at that and if a school opens a class in a room, obviously that is a long-term investment and response to local need. We would not be happy with children having to move and be unsettled after only being a year at the school, nor would we condone it. We do have schools coming to us with that concern but, by and large, when we look at the trends and numbers the enrolments are dropping. We we will look into the specifics of the schools in question.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McLoughlin. I will be unique today and give the Chair back 15 seconds.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I have questions for the witnesses but first I want to comment on something one of my colleagues said. I do not think his comment should be allowed. He is a gentleman and I am sure he did not mean it but he said he was sure "the Minister was just getting her shopping bag ready for going into work in the Department". If the Minister was a man, that term probably would not have been used. I do not think that was an appropriate comment.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We can deal with it at the next meeting.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I want to address the issue of the schools that were identified as having to redeploy SNAs. As my colleagues said, it has been very hard on all of them but particularly on the parents and the families. What exactly did the holistic review show that the SNAs were doing? I know that needs change. I know the children go from sixth class into first year. Were there any unusual circumstances found in the schools where SNAs were being redeployed? Was anything identified that they were doing that perhaps they should not have been doing?
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I know what the rules are.
Mr. John Kearney:
-----and we have had certain engagements on whether they should be expanded or take on additional perspectives. We did come across teaching duties being performed by SNAs. The circular is very clear on the role of a special education teacher, a teacher and an SNA. We know SNAs do wonderful work but, as it stands within the confines of the existing circular, teaching duties are not part of that.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Some of the SNAs that were to be redeployed were performing teaching duties. Were they found to be doing anything else?
Ms Helen Walsh:
It boils down to the fact the 2020 practice of reducing the number of SNAs within the system stopped and we are back into the space. We know that SNAs have, in good faith, been carrying out duties to try to support their school communities so there is not a judgment in relation to that, and they are incredibly valued for that. We know that there are times when schools are under pressure, and so SNAs will carry out those duties. However, at the same time, our focus in terms of best practice will always be that the right professional works with the child in the correct way and at the right time and that the child is always included in all activities. We have seen that sometimes the smallest of interventions, like an environmental adaptation, can mean that the dignity of the child is protected, particularly in intimate care situations. Often people want to support the child and there might be multiple professionals involved in intimate care duties. We would like to see, that to protect the dignity of the child in those scenarios, smaller things can happen to protect the child in that context.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Would somebody else who was not an SNA be hired by the school to do something else?
Ms Helen Walsh:
No. SNAs being deployed in intimate care situations is fine, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, that is part of the primary care needs. However, when we do a review, we can see at times that small adjustments to the environment might make the most amazing outcome for the child in terms of their dignity and their right to autonomy.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I think it was Deputy O'Rourke who referred to a child who had an SNA and then they did not. That is very hard. Did the child not need it or was the SNA doing something else in some of the holistic reviews?
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Was the SNA still assigned?
Ms Helen Walsh:
Possibly at times, but the child had grown into independence. In some situations the child needs the teacher rather than the SNA, but we do not cut on that basis. Generally speaking, when we are going in to readjust an allocation, what we are saying is that we have to take the school in the round and we look at what the primary care needs are. Our duty and responsibility as an agency are to ensure that every child in that school has their primary care needs met. We cannot leave the school without that being the case. However, in reality, we understand that practice shifts and moves within schools. We would say that we have to protect children's independence. We would say that it is important to have the right support by the right professional at the right time. For some school communities whose allocations will have shifted. With reference to my colleague Mr. Kearney, in relation to the proportionate amount of that, we would say that needs are varying and changing all the time. Our duty is to try to capture that. Principals have communicated at times their disappointment that the SNAs will not be involved in the duties that they would have done, and that can be a range of duties.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Where SNAs were found to be performing teaching duties, those schools were obviously badly in need of an extra teacher. Is that the case? I do not understand it.
Ms Helen Walsh:
It can be due to a variety of practices. Classrooms are busy places and special education teachers are incredibly valuable in that context. Sometimes it is all hands on deck, and we respect that. There is no intention there. It is really important to remember that a child with a disability is the same as any other child. They have a right to have their teacher teach them and to guide on that.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Ms Walsh mentioned primary care. Is the definition of primary care needs in the circular too narrow?
Ms Helen Walsh:
I am not saying yes to that, but what I would say to it is that it encompasses far more than is understood. It has been reduced to the physical, medical and sensory meaning for children who are blind, vision impaired, deaf, or hard of hearing. It is very much broader than that. We are talking about children's communication needs and non-nursing needs. Autistic children and neurodiverse children are in that as well. Sometimes interventions are necessary. These can include withdrawal of any child, irrespective of disability, when appropriate. The definition is broad and it encompasses a lot, but we understand practice is different.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I am out of time but I have another question. Hopefully I can ask it in the next round.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of things I want to cover. Ms Walsh said the NCSE knows an awful lot about Dublin 15 and has all the data.
I want to ask about Kildare, and specifically Newbridge. In the last couple of weeks alone I have had so many emails but today I will raise the case of two children. Isaac is locked out of school because he has no place. His parents have applied to 40 schools in County Kildare but because he does not live in the catchment area he cannot get a place and he cannot get a place in the surrounding areas. He has nowhere because Newbridge is severely under represented with special classes. Bobby is in a special class in an infant school in Newbridge but has nowhere to progress. This is happening County Kildare but specifically in Newbridge.
Ms Helen Walsh:
The NCSE is not done in Kildare and is definitely not done in Newbridge. A colleague in the Department and I meet every single week for hours on end to try to make sure that there is sufficient provision in every area. We know that there are certain areas that are under pressure. We are definitely not done in those areas. We have to continue and keep up that work in the area to try to meet the needs of the two children, as described by the Deputy.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Plus the many more children that I did not get to mention.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask an Roinn about the €19 million that has not been raised yet. Has the money been received? Where did it come from? Does the Government have "a cock-up fund" somewhere from where the Department got this money? How will the money be spent? Can the Department give a commitment that cuts will not be made somewhere else in order to provide €19 million?
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
We do not know the answer to some of the Deputy's questions. What I do know, and I think it was said last week, is that sum will provide around 500 whole-time equivalent SNAs for the system to meet the budgetary requirements and meet whatever the expected level of need might be in schools come September and throughout the year. That is what the money is for.
This issue arose at the Committee of Public Accounts. Our understanding is what was said at that committee in terms of where that money comes from. I understand that there are still processes to go through.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Where have we reached, at the moment?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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As this issue concerns this committee I will add one minute. This issue should come under the remit of the Revised Estimates. Members might recall that there was one round of Revised Estimates that did not happen and now a new Revised Estimates has superseded that. In the coming weeks the Minister will appear before this committee and the €19 million will be in there somewhere, having been lodged by the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. There is a question mark over that sum but it should be in that column when the select committee discusses the Revised Estimates.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I want to discuss the issue of schools that cater for children with mild and general learning disabilities. I think it was Mr. McLoughlin who said that he wanted to broaden the designation and did not have enough time to discuss the matter. We must discuss this matter because people are worried about this matter. Many teachers, representatives of schools and parents have been in contact with me to tell me that these schools are being redesignated by stealth. The Department is not closing these schools but redesignation is not right. These schools have acquired specific expertise over many years and redesignation is not the answer. Why have there been redesignations? Is it because the Department is not opening enough schools.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
No, is the short answer. We have opened 16 new special schools in the last few years. We have plans, which I think will be part of the memo that I spoke about earlier, for further new special schools for September and a significant expansion of special school capacity around the country. I myself, the NCSE and others have visited these mild special schools. Some years ago there were around 30 of these schools. When we look at the profile of students in special schools at the minute, about 15 of the schools have broadened their designation of their own volition to meet local demand because, having looked at the level of need, it is in autism, complex needs and the moderate general learning disability. That is where the growth in need is and 15 schools have responded to that demand. We want to work closely with the remaining 15 schools. They rightly have concerns around training, capability and continuing to meet the needs of children with a mild GLD. It is not something we want to happen overnight. We want to work with them and for this to happen on a gradual basis. We see it is very much a move to meet demand. It is very much us listening to the parents of the children who feel at that key transition point, which I spoke about earlier, from primary to post-primary. They are going for the special school option. When we drill into that a bit we find that a lot of it is around a lack of that special class in their local post-primary school. As we open more post-primary special classes and have more SNAs and SETs in post-primary schools, there are options now for some of those children. It is a two-way thing. It is about responding to the needs that we see coming to us and then looking at the cohort of students who enrol in these schools. We think there are alternative options for some of those students.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I, too, have listened to teachers and schools. They are adamant that these schools should not change. I agree with them and I have met the children who have flourished because of these schools. Similarly, early intervention classes are steadily being eroded and we need to protect this provision. In Cork, seven of the early intervention classes attached to primary schools that were opened in 2020 have since been reclassified as autism classes. For the current school year, Cork has 21 early intervention classes. The data shows that the last early intervention class opened in Cork in 2023, while in the same year Dublin had 23 early intervention classes with four being redesignated by the NCSE as autism classes. The same thing is happening with early intervention classes and I think we are going in the wrong direction.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
There is a broader policy piece to speak to in the early years sector. Our colleagues in the Department of Children, Disability and Equality are doing a lot of work around increasing the supports for children with additional needs in the early years setting. The budget for the access and inclusion model has increased from €50 million to €80 million in the last year or two. The number of children with additional needs accessing the access and inclusion model, AIM, support and early years has increased from 3,000 to-----
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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The NCSE redesignates schools but the EPSEN report recommended early intervention classes.
Ms Helen Walsh:
The early intervention classes are incredibly valued. In cases where they are redesignated we must build in protections. First, we require agreement by the school, board and the patron and we engage with the local children's disability network teams, CDNTs, to make sure that there is not any number of children who need it. Where an early intervention class is required, it is not an attempt to shut it down but ensure a continuity of placement for those six children in the absence of significant demand outside but we can open early intervention classes.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will now have a second round of questions. First is Deputy O'Rourke and he has two minutes. The witnesses will have five minutes to conclude everything at the end.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Walsh has said that the 2014 circular was misinterpreted and encompasses more than is understood. Who has misinterpreted and does not understand? Does she mean members of the general public or SENOs?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Walsh means the public. During this full hearing this morning, Ms Walsh has put up a robust defence of the system. Would she say that the proposed cuts were the right cuts?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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No, cuts were proposed. Hundreds of schools were informed that they would have cuts.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Walsh stand over those as proposed cuts?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. What is Ms Walsh's perspective of the €19 million? Is it misspent money?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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In listening to the needs of parents and the sector, there is a fundamental question which is the crux of all of this. As everyone will have heard from the Government and the Opposition, there is a problem with the allocation model and that, in practice and in reality, it does not incorporate a wide enough breadth and that is the ask from school communities. Does Ms Walsh accept that?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Department accept the principle that there are problems with the allocation model and the interpretation and practical implementation of the constrained definition of needs? Does it accept that the definition needs to be expanded to include all of those children who are ordinarily understood to be entitled to the benefit of an SNA support? If the Department does not accept that, we are in big trouble.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
We have committed to a review of the circular. That speaks to that point. The NCSE was obviously doing its job in the context of the previous circular, the allocations circular and Government policy. As Ms Walsh explained earlier, that circular has served us all very well in terms of the increase in numbers. I know the Deputy is focusing on schools that are losing SNAs but there are many schools that are gaining SNAs. There is an issue there. If circulars are not understood or are misinterpreted, we need to do a piece of work on that.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I have a broader question. I feel we are going from year to year and from crisis to crisis. Every August and September, we see children who do not have a school place or who do not have an appropriate school place. Does the Department have a comprehensive plan in place for inclusive education in this country? As was mentioned, the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act talks about inclusive education. That is the model we should be working towards. I know there was a review and consultation. We are still waiting on a final report out of that. We cannot keep stumbling from one thing to another. There has to be a comprehensive plan. We know the numbers presenting with autism have increased across the globe. What data does the Department use to ensure it is prepared to meet the needs of all of our students? If supports are withdrawn for those students who could manage in mainstream education with the support of an SNA, we are going back to segregated education. They will be sent to a special class or a special school, which is segregation of a sort. We need to see an overall picture here. Is there one? Does the Department hae a comprehensive plan?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I might come in on that one, if that is okay. The Deputy is right. There is an inherent tension between opening more special classes and special schools and our commitments under, for example, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which articulates a different model of education, one which is inclusive. Our colleagues in the NCSE published policy advice for the Minister in 2024 that essentially challenges us to develop an inclusive model of education. Over the past couple of years, since the publication of the NCSE policy advice, we have been working with colleagues from the European Agency for Special Needs and Inclusive Education on the development of a roadmap for inclusion that will address the fundamental building blocks of our system as we go forward. It is probably no surprise that among the building blocks that will be required is a very significant focus on teacher professional learning to build capacity among teachers along with their confidence and competence in working in a more inclusive education system. We also have to work on things like leadership and preparation. There have never been more supports in our system for leadership in our schools but we need to do more to recalibrate existing programmes to adopt a more inclusive lens on inclusion.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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There were two parts we did not get to the last time. One was about what the circular says and the second one was about the Relate document. Could we take the matter of the Relate document first?
Ms Helen Walsh:
I am delighted with the Relate document and I want to acknowledge the people behind the scenes who have done tremendous work on it. Without meaning to put any pressure on my Department colleagues, it would be wonderful to see Relate rolled out wherever it needs to be rolled out. We are doing a decent enough job with our advisers at the moment. We are supporting about 350 schools through a sustained support model. The Deputy will notice that within the NCSE's conception of what support for professional learning should look like. That sustained support is what schools need. They need support over time. It takes time to change practice. We are getting really positive feedback on that. We continue to offer opportunities to individual teachers. We have about 28,000 places across our professional learning programme in general. Our 20 advisers on behaviour are trying to offer as much support as they can. I accept the Deputy's point that it is of great value to the system. We are delighted with it and would like to see it rolled out nationally.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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The point needs to be made that it needs to be rolled out to all school staff. I am not just talking about teachers but about everybody and a whole-school approach. SNAs need to be brought in for that same continuing professional development so that they will have the same ability as others.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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With regard to the circular, it is really important to note that the details of the circular are complex. It says that secondary needs should be dealt with but only if primary needs are dealt with first. My understanding is that the review was based on getting primary needs addressed first but we need to move on from that. I do not want to go over old stuff but there is now clarity that the role has evolved and that there is a need to reflect the actual reality. I believe the group here for today's session accepts that.
Ms Helen Walsh:
Without meaning to repeat myself, the evolution of the role is important but it is also important that it remains within the boundaries of appropriate practice for professionals working with children. We have a broader concept. What happened and the feedback to it have exposed the role, what people do and the benefits they bring to school communities. We have to be careful to preserve the integrity of the professionals working within the school sector in a collaborative sense. SNAs should be doing what they are trained to do and what they are really good at. All the work they do in supporting children should be accurately captured in the context of teaching.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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That is what the difficulty here has been. All of those steps were not put in place before the review happened. The cart was put before the horse, as my colleague said.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question on the emergency SENO line. A school was in touch with me that has a special class and that has been experiencing difficulties with the level of support based on the needs of the children. The school has told me that calls to that emergency SENO number are not being answered and that calls are not being returned.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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To go back to Senator Tully's comments about the future, inclusive education, being fully inclusive and not going from one crisis to another, an issue that has been brought to me a few times is the admissions policies for special classes. These are, of course, based on children's needs. That is not the same as schools' admissions policies generally. I know a lot of people are now facing that difficulty. They want their child to be in a special class in the school their other children attend. Is that something we will be able to work towards when we have enough classes? Are we going to insist on the same admissions policy applying across the entire school in order for it to be inclusive?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It depends on what ultimately emerges as the vision for our system. We have been trying to work towards the concept of the local school having the capacity to meet the needs of as many children as possible. I do not know if the Deputy's constituency covers Navan but the Johnstown campus in Navan is a really good example of progression in our system. Kids who were in a special school somewhere else are now on the same campus as kids from mainstream primary and post-primary schools. That offers huge opportunities for those children to be visible, at the very least. It also offers opportunities for teachers. There is bit of mobility across the campus for both teachers and learners. It is a stepping stone towards that more inclusive model of education.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It is sometimes good to bring some real situations in. I received a message from a school in Meath West. It says that, within the first week of operation, a class teacher sustained serious dental injuries during an interaction with a pupil while attempting to keep the child safe. Five lower teeth were broken, resulting in significant pain and extensive dental treatment. Two SNAs have sustained multiple injuries in the course of their duties. They are exhausted, distressed and emotionally overwhelmed. They have indicated that they may be forced to leave their positions due to the physical and emotional toll of the work.
With all of the reviews the Department and NCSE do and all of their in-depth knowledge in this area, what needs are being identified among children? What do they need? What is the current practice being seen in schools? I will provide details of this example afterwards.
Ms Helen Walsh:
Within the context of children with additional needs, we are seeing more cases of schools reporting behaviours of concern and staff are in vulnerable positions. We fully respect that. We do not want to see that happening. Equally, we also see and respect children who are in vulnerable positions in schools. With regard to regulation, our learnings from our research in relation to Covid, the increased needs within the sector and the NCSE research in that space mean we see regulation as one of the greatest needs of children across the sector at this time. The requirement for occupational therapy is really first and foremost in that and in our minds. As for where we are called out, last year, 4,500 schools came to the NCSE for support and almost 3,700 of those were in the context of behaviour. That is in the space of regulation. There is need for it within the sector. Support and training are needed for teachers who are working within that context, and we also have to make sure in whatever we are doing that children are safe and are regulated. We try to go in with Relate on that proactive basis to support schools.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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That class was refused another SNA during the appeals. It is only when you read it as a politician that you wonder how they decided not to give that class an extra SNA in light of those type of injuries? Is there someone else, not an SNA, needed in that class? Is another role needed?
Ms Helen Walsh:
We have a couple of behaviour facilitators within the NSCE and we are sending them all around the country at this time. About 81 special schools are supported by those behaviour facilitators. It is constantly the same issue in that space. It is less within the child, because we often think, "Oh, there's that child with that behaviour", but if we pull it back within the class context, there are actually things that schools can do in a proactive space to support, notwithstanding the very significant issues in that context. Yes, behaviour facilitators are a key support role.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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It is very important to point out that all of the problems we are discussing are interrelated. A lot of it comes back to us having the most overcrowded classes in Europe. I think our inclusivity would be better and parents would not be so anxious about their child not being able to get a space in a special class if our classrooms were not so overcrowded. I really encourage officials to make headway on this and maybe prioritise it at the next budget. Having been a teacher, I have been in a classroom with 32 children and kids with additional needs. It just does not work. It is important to note that.
I have been trying to get information from the Department about equalising funding. There seems to be a huge disparity between primary and post-primary when it comes to the funding received to open and maintain a special class. I just do not understand why one would receive more than the other. Are there plans to close that gap? Perhaps the witnesses could explain this to me.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
We do not work directly in that area but we are in contact with that area. We know they are looking at that and looking at special education capitation in general. A lot of work was done in the last budget to increase capitation rates at special schools, particularly for post-primary age children in special schools. Some of our special schools have fewer than 60 students so we are bringing them up to a base rate of 60 students and basing their capitation rate on that. There was a general increase in capitation as well. The Deputy is right that there is a disparity between primary and post-primary in terms of special classes now. The primary side would say that there are obviously more children in our post-primary schools, so there is certain equalisation, but I think it is being looked at by our colleagues on the school financial side in the Department.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I will comment on the European picture. There are different systems, obviously, and each system operates in its own context. As part of that work I referenced earlier around the development of a roadmap for inclusion, a number of colleagues were facilitated to look at the Lithuanian system, the Portuguese system and the Finnish system. Each is very different. In terms of class size, in the case of the Lithuanian system, for example, on one side of the house we might say, "Wow, that's incredible and that's something we should do", because for post-primary schools with 550 students or more a psychologist is attached to the school, which is an incredible resource to have. What they do not have in that system, however, are the 15,000 special education teachers we have put in place. For every 16 children in mainstream education with a special education need, there is a special education teacher.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Doody. We have concluded members' questions. Deputy John Connolly has been following the meeting and wants to join in as well.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I just have one question about the NCSE circular provided to schools last year, NCSE Guidelines for Review of SNA Allocations 2025/26. It states on the front page:
Schools will be resourced on a whole school allocation basis. Schools are expected to deploy SNA posts to their mainstream or special class based on the greatest level of need across the student population.
That caused a lot of concern among schools because the inference was that the traditional allocation of two SNAs per one special class would no longer be maintained, or that the NCSE was going to review it on a whole-school basis.
Ms Helen Walsh:
This has come up already but I am happy to answer it again. We issued a clarification document in October precisely on the concern the Deputy has just raised. In that clarification document we indicated that the baseline two posts would be held in all special classes. The review is outside of that space as opposed to within the class.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Can I ask also about the special classes that have been announced for last year or this year? Is it a thing of the past that the NCSE will provide a new special class for children with a specific literacy difficulty or specific issue with literacy or spelling? Is it ever the intention to approve a new class for that purpose?
Ms Helen Walsh:
The Department policy, which we operate under, is that we maintain the special schools and the special classes that exist within the sector. The circular is very clear that there is sufficient provision in the mainstream space to support children with specific learning difficulties. I am not saying those places are not coveted by parents, and parents want to get their child into that place for a two-year period, but in a broad sense the circular allows for support for children under SET within their class context. We operate under that policy. We gather detail on demand in relation to it and it ebbs and flows on a yearly basis.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I might just add to that. The special classes, or reading classes as they are called in the reading schools, were pretty much all established at a time when there were no additional supports in our system. An inspectorate report in 2021 looked at the quality of provision in those classes and made broader recommendations for the system. The main recommendation for the system is to build the capacity within mainstream such that we do not actually have the same level of requirement, because there are pressures to get into those classes. If we do have the 15,000 special education teachers out in the system, the onus on our colleagues in the NCSE and us is to ensure they are following best practice for a whole range. We do literacy really well on a broad scale. It is worth noting that we are consistently at the very top of the pile in literacy internationally.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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For the families of children below the second percentile, that point is not really as valuable.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Doody says "special education teachers", does he mean teachers appointed to special classes in the mainstream setting?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Those are the members' questions concluded. I will give maybe three minutes to both the Department and the NCSE. I am conscious that these meetings can be frantic, there were a lot of questions coming their way and there might have been elements they were not able to close out. We will go with the Department of education first. The witnesses can apportion that time in any way they see fit.
Mr. Frank Hanlon:
I will make just a few points. We have probably covered some of them. It was mentioned earlier that the work we do in the Department, like in the NCSE, is very much child centred and very much focused on supporting children. I just wanted to make that point very clear from Department's point of view. Everything we do, whether it is policymaking or trying to get additional money, is geared towards that.
I will pick up on a point made earlier by the Chair, who may not have had time to expand on it, around assistive technology because it is important. It comes back to the NCSE, which abides by a particular circular if a SENO refuses an assistive technology application. Very shortly we will put out a new circular on assistive technology, which will move to a needs basis encompassing literacy and numeracy needs and all sorts of stuff. It will be a needs-based system and it will be much quicker for children to be able to get the laptops and technology. It is worth pointing this out because we are trying to move in that general direction of making things easier for children, and we hear stories about that. It is really important that they can access the curriculum as quickly as possible.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I would reiterate the point that we really value SNAs. They have transformed lives for children with special educational needs over the past 30-plus years. We established the SNA workforce development unit because we recognise the value of the SNAs in the pursuit of an inclusive education model. We are working on the SNA workforce development plan, and working very hard to get it right. We have had focus groups with SNAs, school leaders and teachers. Importantly, we had a consultation with children and young people where they gave their views on how SNA support should be deployed, and how they wanted to have a voice as to how that support is provided.
The SNA workforce development plan, under the various pillars, will introduce actions that support SNAs to give the very best service to the children they work with, and will enhance collaboration with the special education teachers and mainstream class teachers, so the child gets the best educational experience, which meets their care needs and their teaching and learning needs. Aligned to that, through the NCSE, we also fund the SNA national training programme, which 3,800 SNAs have completed to date.
SNAs are hugely committed to learning, which is something we have learned to the nth degree in the past couple of years. We are equally committed to supporting them and ensuring that every child gets the educational experience they are due.
Mr. Martin McLoughlin:
I was particularly struck by Senator Tully's contribution, as a former SENCO. At present, we are segregating children at the age of five into special classes and special school places. If children need that, it is fine. However, I would ask about the longer-term impact of the continuation of that. We really need to get into a system where children are going to their local school and are kept in their local community, building relationships with their peers in the local area, and not being bussed ten, 15 or 20 minutes to a special class or special school. We need to plan for that system. I know Mr. Doody and others are leading work on all of that.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I will add just one sentence to that. Regarding the roadmap for inclusion that I referenced, we would hope to get that to the Minister literally in the next two or three weeks, and we will be engaging on that.
My final point probably reflects how long I have been working in the Department. When I started in the Department, there were 357 SNAs in the system, and there was a feeling that we might need 500.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. I ask the NCSE representatives to make their closing remarks.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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One in 20.
Mr. John Kearney:
I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
I will come back to a general comment referenced by several Oireachtas Members. We are all here because we very much care about the future of inclusive education in this country, which I want to acknowledge. The past couple of weeks have been difficult for everybody - for the Department, the NCSE and Oireachtas Members. The NCSE does not want to see parents on the streets. We know they are trying to get access to services. We know they are afraid and that they are finding these times stressful in terms of maintaining and seeking school placements. We very much want to reassure them that we will be doing our utmost as an organisation, and working with everybody, particularly schools, so children’s learning needs are met within the individual classrooms and, likewise, their care needs are met by the SNA workforce.
With regard to the SNA workforce itself, there were dark days when SNAs were losing roles and there was no SNA redeployment panel in place. That is to be welcomed for the professionalisation of the service. The clarity of the role is to be welcomed. We have had a healthy and robust debate on what that could potentially look like in the future. From an NCSE perspective, we really welcome the workforce development plan in the context of the continued enhancement of the professionalisation of the SNA workforce itself.
We have broadened the discussion into what inclusive education could really look like. The joint committee has a tremendous role in reflecting our day-to-day practices but also in looking ahead. I am delighted to see that that was referenced today. There is a strong commitment regarding the continued good work by the Department and by the NCSE in terms of our SENO front-line staff, visiting teachers and advisers, and now the development of the education therapy services. A lot has been done in this country. Many of us have worked in education. We all care equally. There are many more challenges but there are also opportunities to create an education that all of us can be proud of from an inclusive perspective.
I commend the Cathaoirleach and committee members on their attention to detail and the professionalism they bring to the discussion and consideration of what inclusive education could look like in this country. I thank them all.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Before we conclude, I sincerely thank the witnesses from the Department and the NCSE for their engagement today. To be helpful, entities that come before the committee sometimes send us correspondence afterwards. Would the witnesses be able to write to us outlining what the next stages of the timelines look like? That is going to become a recurring theme here. We will be doing our own body of work. It would be useful for us to know about the circular and what stages happen next, both in the Department and the NCSE. I again thank all of the witnesses for their opening statements, for taking our questions and for their engagement. I also thank the secretariat and the technical team.
The joint committee will adjourn until Thursday, 19 March 2026, when we will meet at 9.30 a.m. in private, and following that, in public session.