Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Deputy Ryan O'Meara. I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach is meeting to consider the Revised Estimates, Votes 1 to 6, inclusive, for the Department of the Taoiseach. I invite an Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, to make his opening statement.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an gcoiste as ucht an cuireadh bheith leis ar maidin. Tá sé Vóta i ngrúpa vótaí Roinn an Taoisigh, is iad sin: Vóta 1 - Arás an Uachtaráin; Vóta 2 – Roinn an Taoisigh; Vóta 3 – Oifig an Ard-Aighne; Vóta 4 – Príomh-Oifig Staidrimh; Vóta 5 – Oifig an Stiúrthóra Ionchúiseamh Poiblí; agus Vóta 6 – Oifig Phríomh-Aturnae an Stáit. Soláthraíodh doiciméad faisnéise le haghaidh gach ceann de na Vótaí seo don choiste roimh an gcruinniú seo. Cé go bhfuil freagrachtaí ar leith orm don Oireachtas mar gheall ar chúrsaí riaracháin i gcuid de na hoifigí seo, oibríonn siad go neamhspleách ó Roinn an Taoisigh. I thank the committee for this opportunity to appear before it as it considers the 2026 Estimates for the Vote group of the Department of the Taoiseach. I have gone through the six Votes as Gaeilge. A briefing document for each of these Votes has been supplied to the committee in advance of this meeting.

While I have certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas for administrative matters in some of these offices, of course, they operate independently of the Department of the Taoiseach. The gross funding allocation sought for the Vote group for 2026 totals just over €338 million, an increase of 14% on 2025. I will now give a brief overview of the 2026 funding allocations for each individual Vote.

In respect of Vote 1 - President’s Establishment, the purpose of this Vote allocation is to support the President’s Establishment to deliver its high-level goal to provide high quality, timely support services to the President in the execution of her constitutional, legal and representational duties and responsibilities and to provide for payment of the centenarians’ bounty in a timely and expeditious manner. The 2026 gross Estimate for the President’s Establishment is €6.3 million, an increase of 14% on 2025. The increase in this Vote reflects the increase in administrative subheads for pay and operating expenses of the Office of the President and to deliver on the Presidential programme for 2026.

In respect of Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach, the purpose of this Vote allocation is to deliver its high-level goals to support the Taoiseach and the Government, including implementation of the programme for Government, through principled leadership and joined-up governance. The 2026 gross Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach is €37.19 million, a decrease of almost €4.4m, or 11%, compared to 2025. This is due to reductions in subheads A4 and A5 in respect of independent tribunals of inquiry and commissions of investigation. A total of 71% of the Vote allocation relates to salaries, wages and allowances. Administration costs for the Department account for 21%, or €7.9 million. The remaining 8% provides non-pay funding for the National Economic and Social Development Office, the Covid-19 evaluation, Citizens' Assembly and a number of independent inquiries.

In respect of Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General, the purpose of this Vote allocation for the Office of the Attorney General is to support it to deliver its high-level goal to provide the highest standard of professional legal services to Government, Departments and offices as economically and efficiently as possible and to support adherence to the rule of law. The 2026 gross Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General is €31.5 million, an increase of 20% on 2025. A total of €3.95 million of the Office of the Attorney General’s 2026 Estimate is allocated to the Law Reform Commission, an increase of 18% on 2025. A total of 73% of the Office of the Attorney General’s Vote allocation relates to salaries, wages and allowances, an increase of 13% on 2025. This reflects the increase in costs for current staff, in addition to the need to increase staff numbers, which is required to support the timely implementation of the programme for Government.

In respect of Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office, the purpose of the Vote allocation to the Central Statistics Office is to support the office to deliver its high-level goal to describe Ireland and its place in the world using international standards to produce key, trustworthy data and insights about society, the economy and the environment. The 2026 gross Estimate for the CSO is €118.8 million, an increase of 25% on 2025. A total of 69%, or €82 million, of the CSO’s gross Vote allocation is pay-related, with the remaining 31% split across the non-pay subheads. The 2026 gross Estimate includes €4.4 million national recovery and resilience plan funding for the provision of an online census platform.

In respect of Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the purpose of this Vote allocation is to support the office to deliver its high-level goal to provide, on behalf of the people of Ireland, a prosecution service which is independent, fair and effective. The 2026 gross Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is €83.2 million, an increase of 14% on 2025. This increase is principally made up of an increase of €2.9 million in pay, an increase of €3.7 million in administration costs and an increase of €3 million in fees to counsel. This increased funding allocation will provide for additional staff required to deal with the increase in the volume and complexity of file activity levels in recent years and will support the establishment of a new regional office in Cork in 2026. It will also allow for the development of the prosecution service in key areas such as financial crime and sexual offences, as well as the core legal work of the office.

The purpose of the Vote 6 allocation to the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is to support the office to deliver its high-level goal to provide the highest standard of professional legal services to Government, Departments and offices as economically and efficiently as possible and to support adherence to the rule of law. The 2026 gross Estimate for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is €61.1 million, which is an increase of 10% on 2024. The increase in funding is primarily attributable to funding higher staff costs and operational costs at the Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

I will outline the priorities of the Department of the Taoiseach for 2026, which reflect the central role of the Department in working across Government to implement programme for Government commitments underpinning a sustainable economy, a successful society and the pursuit of this country’s interests abroad. Both our economy and society have shown remarkable resilience in recent years despite experiencing an array of complex external shocks over the past decade or so. We have enjoyed a period of strong growth with exceptional economic performance and job creation and an employment rate at near record highs, with 2.8 million people at work in Ireland. However, as a small, open economy, there are many risks outside of our control. International decisions on trade policy have the potential to harm our economy and those of our main exporter partners both directly and indirectly. In the context of recent statements by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, notwithstanding the fact that we have an issue with reliance on corporation tax, it is important that we have provided significant buffers. In 2025, projected cash balances will be at €40 billion and, by the end of 2026, our debt to GDP ratio will be at about 32%, which is the fifth lowest in the EU. Debt to GNI, which is probably a more relevant metric, will be at 59%. There is €16.5 billion with regard to the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF. With regard to the investment fund out to 2030, we expect a figure of €47 billion. The Exchequer surplus in 2025 was €7 billion and additional funds were set aside to cash balances - about €3 billion - so we have a strong fiscal position and cash buffers. This will help to protect us in the case of any sudden short-term revenue fluctuations to fund core services. The Government has explicitly separated out windfall corporation tax receipts from day-to-day spending. A total of €4 billion per annum in windfall receipts is being allocated to the Future Ireland Fund building assets that are expected to exceed €100 billion by the 2040s. The Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund is capitalised at €14 billion with annual allocations of €2 billion dedicated to transformative infrastructure and climate investment.

It is important we move forward on implementation of the EU-US framework on trade and welcome the European Parliament resuming work in this regard. Our goal is the effective stabilisation of European Union-US trade relations. In responding to these international developments, we are also placing a renewed focus on areas that we can shape, influence and control. This was demonstrated in budget 2026, which strikes an appropriate balance between using public resources to invest in productivity-enhancing initiatives while building up fiscal buffers. The budget provides a package of €9.4 billion, demonstrating a strong commitment to planning for, and securing, Ireland’s future.

The Government is also driving forward implementation of its action plan on competitiveness and productivity, which sets out our ambition for better and sustainable productivity, stronger innovation capacity and economic resilience. Our new national digital and AI strategy sets out Government’s ambition to 2030 to strengthen our position as a digital leader and a global hub for applied AI innovation.

The Government recognises that the absolute need to invest in the future and delivery of modern sustainable infrastructure is vital for Ireland’s national competitiveness, fostering regional development, delivering housing and meeting social needs. The national development plan sets out the largest capital investment in the history of the State to unlock housing, upgrade water and energy infrastructure, deliver more roads and provide better public transport. The Government has set out annual sectoral allocations for 2026 to 2030 and overall Government capital expenditure ceilings to 2035. We are looking at approximately €275.4 billion over the period to 2035. Along with this funding, reform of delivery is also key to infrastructure. Our accelerating infrastructure action plan, published in December, is focused on matching our investment in infrastructure with action and delivery to unlock key barriers, streamline development processes and significantly reduce delivery timelines.

In November last year, we published our new housing plan, which comprises two key pillars - activating supply and supporting people. The plan aims to deliver 300,000 new homes by the end of 2030, including 90,000 affordable supports and 72,000 social homes. Under the plan, we are creating policy certainty and have already prioritised a range of far-reaching measures to accelerate the delivery of homes. Our plan is working; we are seeing a significant uptick in industry sentiment and momentum. With 36,000 houses completed in 2025, we are clearly on an upward trajectory. We have to maintain momentum and keep focus on it.

The Government is determined to advance the rights and improve the level and scale of support for disabled people and their families. In September last year, the new national human rights strategy for disabled people 2025-2030 was published. This sets out how we will pursue a truly whole-of-government approach to addressing disability and represents our commitment and ambition that all disabled people in Ireland can live the life of their choosing and fully participate in their communities and our society. Through budget 2026, we have taken initial steps to deliver on this commitment. A record €3.8 billion was allocated to the Department of Children, Disability and Equality for specialist disability services, representing a 20% increase on previous years. This will improve both the sustainability of the sector and delivery of disability services for children and adults. This is year one of the Government's plan to provide the step change we need for people with disabilities. We are committed to building on this investment over the lifetime of this Government. Central to this renewed focus on disability is the new disability unit in the Department of the Taoiseach. An initial programme plan for the unit has been published and the unit is up and running, supporting the work of the Cabinet committee on disability. Working across government in co-operation and consultation with disabled people and their families, I am determined that over the course of this Government, real progress will be achieved in improving the lives of disabled people.

Reducing child poverty is a priority for Government. That is why we have retained Department of the Taoiseach's child poverty and well-being programme office in the programme for Government to continue the work across government and to drive delivery in areas that will have the greatest impact for children and families. The team is currently working on important issues such as reducing child and family homelessness with the development of the child and family homelessness action plan, reducing educational disadvantage with DEIS and DEIS plus, and meeting the new child poverty target.

The Government is working extensively to progress the historic task of building lasting reconciliation through supporting the successful functioning of the Good Friday Agreement institutions and the relationships that underpin them, by making progress in dealing with legacy issues from the Troubles and, through the shared island initiative, implementing the largest ever programme of North-South research and investment, opening critical infrastructure links and building all-island engagement and understanding. There was an excellent article in yesterday's edition of The Irish Timeson the impact of the Narrow Water Bridge, which is under construction. Already, one gets a sense that people are reacting economically, culturally and community-wide to that initiative. We want to put a sustained focus on building a shared, reconciled future for all communities on the island, backed by our €2 billion commitment to the shared island fund out to 2035. Through this initiative, the Government is bringing co-operation, relationships and connectivity across the island of Ireland to a new level.

War in Ukraine is a sign and manifestation of the increasingly uncertain and unpredictable world in which we live. It brings new challenges for Europe and the European Union. We need to increase our security capacity, to decrease our dependency on others to meet our needs in strategically important sectors and to improve our competitiveness to ensure our future prosperity in a more turbulent global trading environment.

Competitiveness was at the heart of our discussions at the most recent informal meeting of EU leaders in Belgium on 12 February. We particularly focused on three priorities: the need remove remaining barriers in the Single Market, especially for services; the need to create a more integrated market for savings and investments; and the need to drive further and faster with our ambitious global trade agenda. We also agreed on the need to simplify and right-size our regulation, making life easier for businesses and citizens. We will return to these issues when we meet again in March at the Council, and they will be an important area of focus for Ireland when we take on the Presidency of the Council of the European Union for the eighth time on 1 July. This is an important time to be assuming the Presidency - helping to shape the EU agenda and ensure that the EU delivers for its citizens. The priorities for Ireland's Presidency will be finalised in the coming months and will take account of the detailed consultation with stakeholders here in Ireland and with our European Union partners. More than 270 Presidency events will be hosted in Ireland, including 22 informal ministerial meetings. I look forward to hosting around 50 European leaders at a meeting of the European Political Community in November, which will be held back-to-back with an informal meeting of the European Council.

We are experiencing the growing impacts of climate change at first hand. A succession of severe weather events in recent years have brought flooding, power outages and damage to infrastructure. These changes to our climate system threaten our businesses, homes and way of life. The kind of weather events we have experienced in recent times and recent reports from the EPA and the Climate Change Advisory Council have highlighted the need for Ireland to rapidly build climate resilience and to adapt to the escalating impacts of climate change. The latter will become a central focus for us all.

Work by the OPW to advance flood relief schemes is being expedited. The Government has met over recent weeks to refine existing systems and explore what interim measures can be taken to protect life and property pending the delivery of permanent schemes. This will include immediate procurement by the OPW of additional equipment, such as pumps and aqua dams, which will be available for use by local authorities. As the risk of flooding intensifies, we must look at complementary measures that can be taken at catchment level to help reduce peak floods by slowing the speed of water reaching vulnerable areas. Nature-based approaches and temporary water storage upstream of vulnerable areas can assist in mitigating flooding. The recent flooding has also highlighted the need to improve our systems for identifying and communicating flood risk. This will ensure that public authorities, communities and individuals have more time to prepare for, and respond to, future flood events.

Change is under way across our economy and society to align ourselves to a low-carbon future. Reducing emissions is now at the heart of all our policies and sectors. Ireland has accepted challenging emissions reduction targets at both EU and national level. In the programme for Government we reaffirmed our determination that Ireland will play its full part in tackling what is a global issue. Emissions are lower now than at any time over the past 35 years, despite our population growing by 50% over that period. However, the latest EPA greenhouse gas emission projections clearly indicate that increased action and ambition are needed to achieve what we have committed to over the remainder of the decade and to 2050.

We are undergoing a renewables-led energy transformation. Electricity generation from renewables has increased fivefold since 2005. We are on the cusp of an energy revolution that will see Ireland harness its offshore wind energy potential. The Government has backed this with real investment. A €3.5 billion programme of grid upgrades has been announced in the National Development Plan 2026-2030, to strengthen the electricity network for renewables and electrification.

We need to accelerate climate action. We know there will potentially be significant cost implications if we fall short of our EU targets. That has to be factored into our policy considerations to ensure that policymakers across the system are focused on avoiding such costs by urgently putting in place the measures required to reduce emissions decisively.

I welcome the opportunity to engage further with the committee on the Revised Estimates for the Vote group of the Department of the Taoiseach. Given the breadth of the group in terms of activities, functions and responsibilities, and the independent status of a number of the offices in the group, I will endeavour to answer all questions as precisely and informatively as I can, but if I need to get information, we will revert to the Chair in terms of any further engagement with the bodies concerned.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim míle buíochas leis An Taoiseach.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ar dtús, cuirim fáilte roimh an Taoiseach chuig an gcoiste. As I have to be in the Chamber shortly, I will be quick and concise. First, I do not think it is correct to say that windfall corporation tax receipts have been separated out from day-to-day expenditure. That may be the case with some of it, but certainly not in terms of the bulk of it. I invite the Taoiseach to provide a written breakdown afterwards of exactly what is happening there in terms of the separation of windfall corporation tax.

In respect of Vote 2 - the Department of the Taoiseach - and the well-being framework and the well-being of pensioners, I welcome that the An Post pensioners have finally had their pension increase signed off. Can the Taoiseach confirm whether the increase has been signed off for the CIÉ pensioners? These people have been waiting 18 years.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will provide information on the current position. Basically, I would say three things. We have to be very conscious of the increasing share of overall revenue corporation tax represents. I see the risk. We all collectively need to articulate that risk and the challenges that exist. We are behind in the context of infrastructure, and we have to catch up. The population has grown exponentially over the past 30 years. We had separated out a lot of the windfall, both in terms of the Future Ireland Fund and the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund. I take the Deputy's point that it was not all separated out. The balance of that is going into the productive capacity of the economy by means of investment in infrastructure.

The third strand is that we do need to invest in services in order to keep up with population growth. We are in a difficult and challenging environment whereby current expenditure is growing by about 6%. That is what we earmarked for the next number of years in the medium-term potential framework that has been submitted to Europe.

We got criticism from Deputy O'Callaghan and others following the budget to the effect that we took away all of the once-off cost-of-living measures because we felt they were not fiscally sustainable. We could argue that corporation tax would be paying for that too. What we did feel was that we needed to invest in infrastructure, which will remove blockages, lead to better economic performance and better productivity in the economy, which is more sustainable. It is a combination of putting money into funds and having sufficient cash balances - we are up to about €40 billion now - and investing significantly in infrastructure and facilitate generation change infrastructural delivery. I refer here to, for example, the greater Dublin region drainage programme and the eastern midlands programme from the Shannon. These are big infrastructural projects that need certainty. MetroLink is another. One of the issues with the metro was to convince external consortia that we are really going to get it done this time. There is a lot of cynicism out there. I recall what happened in the 2000s. I went to firms and they said "You are not really going to do that". Then the crash came and it did not happen. We came up with the idea. I was involved in it with Michael McGrath. We said we needed an infrastructure fund as well to give certainty, insofar as we can, that there will be capital there to underpin the projects we have committed to, even if there is a drop in revenue. In my view, this capital infrastructure has to be done.

I welcome the final signing off on the An Post pension. I understand that the sign-off is imminent in regard to CIÉ. I have been pursuing the matter with both Departments. It was not just a simple increase. There were other issues involved as well, which led to discussions between the Department of public enterprise and the Department of Transport. I have made it very clear that they had to be resolved. These are important issues for the workers in CIÉ and An Post.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Taoiseach.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach and his officials for being here. Last year, the Taoiseach set up a new ministerial council on national security that he chairs. The budget for defence for this year has been increased by between 10% and 11% to approximately €1.5 billion. I understand and appreciate the defence spending increase. We have to move towards level of ambition, LOA, 2 by 2028. There is an article in the press today about a commitment to purchase equipment from France, namely: 300 vehicles at a cost of €600 million; communications and sonar for about €160 million; aircraft for €300 million; and radar for approximately €500 million. Together with other equipment, the likely cost is going to be €2 billion.

We have challenges in other areas, particularly when it comes to naval matters. We need to procure vessels in order to bring the fleet up to a total of eight. That work is still to be done. Overall, I fully appreciate both the need to get to LOA 2 by the end of 2028 and the ambition to do that, but are we budgeting enough for defence spending?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was Minister for Defence for close to two years. We sanctioned and green-lighted the radar in particular. One of the issues was building up procurement capacity in the Department of Defence. One of the reasons we went out to tender on a joint venture with other EU member states is because that would enable us to accelerate the process. I will put it this way: we are not going to hold back in terms of expenditure growth. The issue really is procurement capacity and getting delivery within a reasonable timeframe.

In the context of all the announcements, we are looking at the period 2026 to 2030. We hope the military radar will come more quickly. There are also four H145 helicopters and the eight super-medium helicopters. There is a time phase involved. If we have to do more, we will. All of this is very important. We had a very important delivery of C295s. These are new aeroplanes for sea surveillance. They have great capacity. We now have three of these aircraft. They help us in terms of both logistics and in getting to locations to rescue citizens. There is far greater capacity. They can engineer surveillance of our sea area and economic zone in 48 hours. This is a huge advance.

We are pressing for greater capacity in drone technology and the more modern dimensions of warfare. Ukraine's military is probably one of the most technologically advanced in Europe by dint of the invasion. It is a shocking situation, and Ukraine has had to innovate very quickly. All of the reports back are such that the nature of defence and security capability is changing dramatically and that technology is going to be the central dimension in the future. We have to make absolutely sure that this aspect is not lost. That is why there needs to be a review of the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces which, although not totally, was a catch-up in terms of outlining the objective. A lot of what it outlined involved conventional weaponry and systems. The pace of technological change has been extraordinary. People have described the Russia-Ukraine war as a combination of the First World War, initially, the Second World War and, dare I say it, the third world war in terms of technology. AI is coming down the tracks very fast. I heard one particular presentation on what the impact of AI on the conduct of war and conflict could mean. I would have no issue coming back here, as Taoiseach or as Minister for Defence, and saying that we overspent by €200 million because procurement came in. We are doing it.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to the timeline for LOA 2, the plan runs to the end of 2028. The Taoiseach spoke about delivery up to 2030 for some of this French technology. Of the 130 recommendations, at the end of December, we had completed approximately 56. That seems to put us on track to meet the objective. If we are speaking about delivery up to 2030, does that suggest some slippage in the timeline relating to the objective?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was more in the context of all of the equipment here. I hope not. I am putting it down to procurement. It is an outline agreement with the French. There is a lot of work to be done in negotiations. The key vulnerabilities relate to the critical undersea infrastructure in terms of gas, energy and subsea cables. I would have concerns about the latter. We have to co-operate with other member states in respect of this infrastructure. Cybersecurity is a constant issue, particularly when it comes to attacks on the private sector and public sector in Europe, Ireland and elsewhere. I would like to see more investment in these areas, to be frank, and in generating and developing greater capacity.

I visited the University of Limerick recently. There is a tremendous research facility there that is doing work on developing remote-controlled undersea drones. This relates to being able to inspect undersea infrastructure. I would like to see more investment in our third level capacity to develop technologies to protect these vital areas. I also visited the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies recently. It has done research on seismic earthquakes. There is an application of its research with regard to earlier detection of cables under stress. That is fascinating on one level, but we have to invest more in it. We have to develop stronger national research capacity in all of these areas.

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a very good point. We have signed up to SAFE, the €150 billion loan from Europe to countries to develop their militaries. There is also a procurement aspect. I understand that a certain percentage of the money must be spent within the European Union. I did not notice anything which indicates that money has to be spent in a particular countries. Ireland is quite advanced in terms of drone technology. I did not realise that underwater drone technology had potential. Clearly, it does. It is too late to put something into the SAFE legislation to mandate that a percentage of money be spent in particular countries, but there is an opportunity, on a soft basis when talking to other European countries, not only to promote the technology we have in Ireland but also to suggest, given that we are backing the financial facility through our EU budget, that countries should strive to meet a certain minimum purchase from individual member states. Does the Taoiseach think this has any merit?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a strong focus on European preference. I would be doubtful that a situation would emerge at EU level whereby we would have precise percentages per member state. That could complicate procurement significantly. In the context of the €90 billion and all of that, it is stacked insofar as member states are obliged to procure from the European defence industry unless they cannot do so. From observing all of the discussions on Ukraine at EU level and talking to other member states, there was a sense that the European defence industry was slow and did not have the capacity to produce quickly enough or at the volumes that Russia was producing ammunition and new weaponry. There was a significant degree of concern in this regard.

Ireland had a more restricted position until quite recently in respect of the participation of the private sector and companies in technology that would be related to the defence industry. We have said to companies that of course they can participate and their technology can be used because it is a significant area of activity, and in terms of defence and security Ireland should be part of the story, and investment in Europe will increase significantly. A lot of work will go on in the European defence industry per se.

If I can compare it with vaccines, during Covid many countries were going to put up protective walls. Europe avoided this, thankfully. America put up a protective wall and said that until it had 200 million vaccines, it would not export anything. That was wrong because 50 component parts went into making a vaccine and these were manufactured in many different countries. People do different bits of the jigsaw, so to speak, and the supply chains are more complex. The European preference is definitely there. As a small open economy, we are slightly concerned that we do not want the European preference to lead to protectionism or to an overly complicated procurement system whereby somebody endeavours to secure a contract and the component parts of this, that or the other have to be examined.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To pick up on Deputy O'Callaghan's question and the Taoiseach's response, there is no doubt we have an excessive reliance on windfall corporation tax receipts to fund our public services. The evidence is there for all to see. This is not a new problem and it has been with us for some time. Some people might say it is a problem of our success in some respects but the excessive reliance is a very serious risk. The Taoiseach is aware of it, but I am sceptical about the actions the Government is taking to counter it. The Labour Party supported the establishment of the funds for very good reason, particularly as it was the responsible thing to do. If memory serves, we were the only Opposition party to do so. The reality is that not only do we rely on a goodly proportion of the windfall corporation tax receipts to fund our infrastructure ambition but also to run day-to-day services.

That is no way to be. We need to rebalance our taxation system - not simply salt away the resources we have at the moment for a rainy day, as it were, but invest in infrastructure, which we support. We need to be responsible about the complexion and composition of our tax system and how we tax people fairly into the future, taking account of the risks. I rarely waste the opportunity to make that point because it is important. Society is still bearing the scars of the problems we encountered in the late 2000s and of the rebuilding of our economy and society. We do not want to go there again.

The Taoiseach made some interesting points in response to Deputy Shay Brennan's contribution on defence, and security more generally. Am I to take from his remarks that he is reopening the discussion on the report of the commission on defence spending. I think there is political consensus around level of ambition 2. If we are to focus on the ever-evolving technology and the function it will fulfil in the future, that will come at considerable expense. That is understandable. The Taoiseach made the point that he would have no difficulty in justifying an overrun in defence expenditure in that regard. I accept and understand that. However, are we reopening that conversation now or are we stuck with level of ambition 2?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are at level of ambition 2. Not all of the technology is as expensive as mentioned. I read an article recently about its application in the war in Ukraine. That is in terms of the scale of a war, but we are talking about the protective side of it.

Every strategy evolves. You do not have to rewrite the whole thing. There needs to be a stronger emphasis on the technological side of this. For example, how it applies to level of ambition 3 might be more relevant. Some people say we need fighter jets and all of that kind of stuff. That is huge expenditure. We need to be technologically secure. Economic security is vital and our economic security is at risk. One example is the row about the strategic gas reserve. I find it difficult at times to convey to people that this is a security decision, not a relaxation of our commitment to climate action or anything like that. If anything happens to the gas connectors, we will be in serious trouble economically. That is just a fact. People have gamed this and said that, within ten days, we would be in trouble. That is why the interconnector with France is important and connecting with the European grid in the medium term is an important security consideration.

As part of the national security council, we have to have a broad lens about what constitutes security. Economic security is very important. The three areas of our military need good equipment as well. When we send them on peacekeeping missions, they need very good equipment. I was recently in Lebanon. The technology they have put in place for tracking soldiers and so on is first class. Ireland is the only unit in the UNIFIL contingent that has that technology and that is the kind of progress we need to see more of.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will try to focus on the Revised Estimates Volume, REV, for the remainder of time I have available. Regarding subhead A2, subsection (VI) in section II relates to premises expenses-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which one?

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Subhead A2, section II, subsection (VI).

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that Vote 6?

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I think so. There is a reference to it being up 184%. To assist the discussion, it says that €958,000 of an increase is required to fulfil mandatory requirements for secure meeting facilities to allow continued engagement with international partners.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is Vote 2.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise. Yes, it is Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach. Without giving away any national secrets or compromising national security, there are clearly issues. What are the concerns? Will the Taoiseach briefly outline them? I would not ask him to compromise national security. What work is involved?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would not be compromising anything. Take meetings of the coalition of the willing as an example. Some of those meetings - not all - would have sensitive things being said and NATO-proof secure facilities are the standard needed now. We have one in the country. We need one in Government Buildings for ease and so on.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is required because-----

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not disputing that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----surveillance is everywhere.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again on Vote 2, the Taoiseach made some references to policy responsibilities. There is still no sign of DEIS plus. A commitment was made in the budget. There was an expectation in the system that some announcement would be made about pilot projects before Christmas. Will the Taoiseach update the committee about what stage DEIS plus is at,-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding-----

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----when decisions will be taken and how schools will be identified? There were concerns previously that the designation of DEIS band 1 schools was not as transparent as it ought to have been. All of the evidence is there. The Taoiseach and I know where those schools are. When can we expect implementation?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that they will come to the Government quite shortly. There are overall challenges with education. We have allocated additional expenditure. We have allocated specific funding for DEIS plus. However, there are ongoing capital pressures and ongoing pressures on expanding programmes. I expect it to come before the Government shortly, but the whole agenda is to try to target those most in need. For example, the DEIS programme supports about 1,200 of the approximately 4,000 primary and post-primary schools at the moment and reaches about 260,000 students through an allocation of €180 million. That is a broad range. As the Deputy will know, there are different bands and different levels of targeting within that overall allocation. We allocated an additional €16.5 million, which will rise to €48 million in 2027, to support the implementation of the new DEIS strategy and introduce the DEIS plus programme, which will commence this year. For all of us - I do not know about the Opposition perspective - the pressure will be on more. We need to target and make sure we reach those furthest behind and those with the most complex needs. That is the challenge.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was our idea originally and we are happy that the Government accepted our idea. We proposed the DEIS plus programme a good few years ago.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not get into that, but Fianna Fáil introduced DEIS.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. I acknowledge that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think it came from the teachers. I was in a school about two years ago and the teachers told me we needed a DEIS plus programme. The complexity of need in that school was-----

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had the breaking the cycle programme a number of years ago.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party did that. I will give credit there.

The problem with everything is that, if it becomes too big, it will not be targeted any more. That is the issue. The Deputy knows what will happen. Everyone will put their hands up and say they do not have one in their constituency or over there. This should not be about that.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was the problem with the review.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This should be an objective analysis with clear criteria as to which schools and communities have the greatest need and are the furthest behind, and we should allocate the resources and get real. It is a long haul. Once we commit to these programmes, they must be a permanent feature, because generational disadvantage takes a long time to turn around.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I will let the Deputy come back in with a brief question and brief response. An Teachta Timmins-----

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach will be aware of our position and where we stand on tribunals, commissions and so on. It is clear. The Moriarty tribunal went on for the bulk of my adult life and we are still waiting for the revised ethics Act or for proposals to be published emerging from the recommendations of the Moriarty tribunal. When can we expect to see a revised, updated ethics Bill that takes into account the recommendations of the Moriarty tribunal?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Taoiseach respond succinctly, please?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have the timeline for that, but I will come back to the Deputy on it. That said, we have implemented fairly far-reaching legislation arising from the Moriarty and Mahon tribunals.

Looking at the Transparency International index and so on, Ireland fares very well now in terms of lack of corruption.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach for the opening statement. It was comprehensive. I will focus first on his general comments and then go into the specifics of the Votes, if I have time.

As regards his comments on expenditure on and investment in infrastructure, we see the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC's warnings on the one hand. I see IFAC representatives and hear what they say on the budget committee six times a year. On the other hand, we hear what the Taoiseach says. I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle. IFAC does not recognise that we invest in infrastructure. Investment in infrastructure is a lot different from current expenditure because there is a return, for example, on broadband, electricity upgrades, rail or whatever else. That is a distinction. The increase in infrastructural investment is greater than it is in normal current expenditure. However, the growth in current expenditure is at a point that is a little excessive, in my opinion, and I will tell the Taoiseach why. The underlying deficit is increasing over what it has been. In 2026, and taking out the unusual corporation tax receipts, the underlying deficit is increasing. That is the worry. That is my general comment. I am seeing it in these Votes. I went through all five or six of them. By and large, 90% of the time, it is double-digit growth: extra employees, extra training, extra IT.

I am concerned about the way the economy is in danger of overspending. Infrastructure is like a company. You even borrow to invest in infrastructure. That is fine. There are returns and it is completely different. IFAC does not recognise that. The Taoiseach recognises that, but as regards the current expenditure, it is a very challenging task. It goes back maybe to focusing on outputs rather than on expenditure. I make just that general comment first and then I will go into detail.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The concept is that the underlying deficit is a moving one because-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is going the wrong way, though.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but at the same time the corporation tax was going the other way. In other words, what is the true, precise underlying deficit?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fair point.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anyway, we will not go there, but I accept two things: there is a risk and an over-reliance on corporation tax. There is no question about that. Going back to Deputy Nash, the polity - the political system - we have is challenging as well and is a factor in all of this. That is not by way of an excuse. It is just reality. We go from 16,000 SNAs to 25,000 SNAs in four or five years and we end up in a big row. That was managed wrong. There is no question about that.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Deputy get my point, though? The demand is for more and more. Look at the budget debate last year.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the challenge.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We took out-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why we are paid the big salaries - to deal with that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And we are doing so. We took a decision to take out €2 billion to €3 billion in one-off cost-of-living measures, which we felt were necessary during the aftermath of Covid and the war in Ukraine because inflation went to extraordinary levels, but people want to keep them going forever, literally. The point I am trying to make is that the Government has taken corrective steps. Okay, the budget represented a degree of consolidation on the public expenditure side, albeit at a high level, but when population growth is factored in - this is where I think some economists can point at the-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree 100%. I have said this to IFAC. We are the fastest growing economy in Europe. We have the highest population growth in Europe. Of course we are going to have the highest expenditure growth in Europe. Even taking account of all of that, we are still in danger of going a little high. That is my point.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are. I accept that. In fairness to the Minister, Jack Chambers, he is reigning it in. As a result, he is not the most popular Minister across the Government because he is the guy who has to put the brakes on, and he is doing that. I just have to give a context to this as well. If we do not identify the challenges and if we do not share that information, we are not tackling it either. Ultimately, the buck stops with the Government, the Government has to make decisions and the Government is responsible, but-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why we have to have open discussions on this-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like this one.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and discussions like those we are having today.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Correct.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not all one way in terms of expenditure. Two other-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I make another important point? Outputs are very important, and we are not focusing enough on them. I think the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, in the Department of Health is. The expenditure on health over the last number of years has been absolutely dramatic and exponential, but we are focusing on outcomes in terms of the emergency departments, waiting times and, above all, the electives and getting stuff through. If we build surgical hubs-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious of my questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and elective hospitals, we should see significant reductions.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Completely. I focus on outputs. I even said it in my opening remarks. In one of the Votes, I think Vote 6, the outputs did not actually change. I will refer to that later. They are not actually increasing. Expenditure is increasing but outputs are not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which Vote is that?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will come to it in a few minutes anyway, but it is-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chief State Solicitor's office, is it?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry. It is Vote 5, the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, on page 12. There is no increase in outputs. That is a problem. We are all focused on money and expenditure increases, but it is not about money. It is about results. That is back to value for money, that intangible term.

Another general point I will make before I run into this is on more long-term budgeting rather than thinking one year ahead. There is a medium-term fiscal framework. It looks five years ahead. We need to look more than five years ahead. We need to look generations ahead. If we look 20 years ahead, we will start to see that the pensions bill will be really big. Should people be allowed to work part-time when they are 65 or over 70? The health budget will increase. Can we use AI? We will flag these issues early if we start looking at the consequences, and we can deal with them incrementally rather than getting a big shock in five or ten years' time. It is a matter of more long-term budgeting and looking further ahead generally.

I probably will not have time to go through these but I might get them on the way back. On Vote 1, the President's Establishment, there is an extra €455,000 over the 2025 amount. Is that just down to the extra employees the three former Presidents will receive?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Deputy want me to respond specifically on that?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What we are doing there is that, as part of the President's Establishment, a former President may have administrative support funded for them in a similar way to former taoisigh. The State will cover the cost of the employment of a secretarial assistant on a rate of pay equivalent to that of a higher executive officer, HEO. That would be the bulk of it but it is not up to €500,000. It may not all get spent. There are other incidental expenses attached to that. I think the reason and rationale for it is that former Presidents have added value to the country's profile and diplomatic footprint in terms of the global situation. Former Presidents like Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese have a distinguished international footprint. They attend many conferences. I have been at COP, for example. Mary Robinson is very significant there.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that. I am just conscious of my time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is at HEO level. Given the status of the office and the degree to which Mary McAleese gets involved in other debates and so on, that is positive, and I have no doubt that former President Michael D. Higgins is a person who will add value. His influence, for example, in the UN Security Council vote in terms of his connections and contacts with countries in Latin America is important, so we should-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach for that.

Under Vote 3, the Office of the Attorney General, there are massive increases in digital capital investment. Will that all be completed in one year?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know whether it will be done in one year. I would hope so. Basically, it is a joint project known as Reachtra. It is has been under way between the Office of the Attorney General and the Houses of the Oireachtas since March 2022 to replace the current software system for the drafting, amending and publishing of Bills. It will deliver efficiencies in the legislative drafting process, enable accessible legislation across a variety of digital platforms, and streamline the publication of legislation and associated information. It is a joint procurement implementation process, with an agreement in place between the Oireachtas and the Attorney General's office regarding the division of costs.

The Deputy made a point about long-term budgeting, and I agree. We need more strategic budgeting as well. One of the things I have been doing since this Government was established is saying "penny wise, pound foolish" in terms of regulators and offices like the Attorney General's. You get a far bigger bang for your buck if you make sure regulators like the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, and so on are properly resourced. The idea of going incrementally such that everyone gets 5% is not strategic. Regulators are key to economic development. An Coimisiún Pleanála's resources have been dramatically increased. I met it yesterday in a different context in terms of offshore wind and a clearing house we had. Resources have improved dramatically and significantly, but that makes sense because the speedier we get decisions through, the better the economic outcome.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is back to the outputs.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the same Vote 3, it is indicated in the documentation that premises expenses are up by 90%. I know there is additional accommodation but, again, I am seeing a lot of big numbers here.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Deputy seeing a lot of?

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A lot of big increases. It is stated it relates to additional accommodation. This is Vote 3 .

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Attorney General's office has reached a bit more than what I just said. It has 170 staff with a further increase due this year. It needs space to accommodate the additional staff. The office is engaging with the OPW to secure suitable additional office accommodation. In the last six years, it has grown a lot. Staff numbers will increase to 206, which is an increase of 44% since 2020.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those are scary increases-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think so.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----unless you are getting outputs to match.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I disagree with the Deputy. Yes to outputs, but the increases are not scary. It should have happened before six years had passed, which is crazy. An AG's office is vital to the functioning of a modern state in all its activities. For the planning Bill, which took three to four years to get through the Oireachtas, the then Attorney General procured external senior legal people who understood the planning system to do a comprehensive deep dive and reform through that Act, which was passed in the previous Dáil. We did it in double-jig time. Rather than spending ten years on these projects, it is far better to increase our capacities. That is my view, if a project is delayed through not having legal expertise at An Coimisiún Pleanála, for example. What An Coimisiún Pleanála will say is that a robust decision that is well-informed and evidence-based can withstand challenge much better than a poorly developed response to a planning application.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree 100%.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those are the kind of outputs. We are beginning to see outputs at An Coimisiún Pleanála in terms of challenges and so on. That is very heartening to see.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am up to ten minutes, but I will give examples later where we are not getting the outputs. I will come back on that.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will give the Deputy the opportunity to come in for a second round.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach. I listened to the survivors of industrial and reformatory schools on "Morning Ireland" this morning. I am aware that the apology was delivered yesterday, but an apology without services is not justice. I was deeply upset at what I heard this morning. I am sure the Taoiseach listens to "Morning Ireland", as most of us do, but if he has not heard it, I ask him to please listen back. As he knows, four people were on hunger strike. I will name them because it is not good to discuss people without naming them: Miriam Moriarty Owens, Mary Dunlevy Greene, Mary Donovan and Maurice Patton O'Connell. Mary Donovan was on "Morning Ireland" this morning and she spoke about the fact they ended their hunger strike in the belief the issues they were striking for would be addressed. Let us not forget they had waited 26 years for that and were forced to go on a hunger strikes for 51 days. They are elderly people, already abused by the State and the system, who were outside during two storms. They survived two storms out there over 51 days. I do not know how they did it. We are lucky that the four of them did make it through.

There was no contact from 4 October to 25 October. They were completely ignored by the State. I know plenty of us did go out to sit with them, but in terms of contact from the State, there was none. On 10 November, they had a five-hour meeting, which the Taoiseach is aware of. Services were promised. A timeline for those services was also promised. On the radio this morning, William Gorry, who is also a survivor, and Mary Donovan spoke about their trauma and the psychological damage that was done to them, not just during their time in industrial and reformatory schools but also during the 26 years they waited and the subsequent hunger strike. Obviously, the apology yesterday will bring back a lot of that. They have no medical cards or services. They are waiting, as are hundreds of thousands of other people, on waiting lists to see consultants. They really do feel they have been very badly let down by the State.

Will the Taoiseach give a timeline for the appointment of the liaison officer and for the delivery of the medical card and other services? He spoke yesterday and he said "soon". With the greatest of respect, that is not good enough. He has been able to go into fantastic detail here about plans, dates, money, and big money and small money, etc., but these people were given a commitment. They ended a 51-day hunger strike. We are lucky that the four who started the hunger strike were able to end it. What they want are the services they were promised. What they want is a timeline for delivery, not soon, not shortly or not in a while. They want to know when they will get those services.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The survivors of industrial schools and reformatory schools suffered enormous trauma. In fact, I was the Minister back in 1999 who chaired an interdepartmental committee as Minister for education. That was the first time an inquiry was established, as a result of my engagement with survivors, including the late Christine Buckley, Bernadette Fahy and others who participated in the "Dear Daughter" documentary. The State responded on that occasion but not everyone is satisfied with the evolving nature of the response. There was a big redress scheme and the National Counselling Service was established. Those were important developments in their time. In fairness to Mary, Maurice, Mary Donovan and Miriam Moriarty Owens, their focus has been on services. In earlier phases, depending on the interactions in different areas, housing initiatives, for example, were taken.

There will be a timeline. In some instances, we have responded. In the meeting I had with them afterwards, they were thankful for some things that were done that needed to be done. More broadly, in terms of the advocacy, I spoke to the Secretary General early this morning in respect of this because I had to intervene on it. I do not believe there should have been a hunger strike, if I am being honest. I do not think anyone should have to go on hunger strike. I pleaded with the four people to come off it when we had set up a mediation process. Unfortunately, the first mediator took ill. Having intervened, I am determined I will see this through with all the Departments that have to provide services. A liaison person has now been established. That was in late November and into December. We have worked out what the Department of education will be providing on their side of it in terms of supports, as well as the Department of Health on the medical card. We have been in touch with the Minister in the Department of Health to get this done as quickly as possible. We will have a timeline for them.

We have already intervened with the local authorities. The Minister has already written, in the week after the agreement, to all local authorities asking them to prioritise survivors of institutions in terms of council housing, where that emerges. The Minister for Social Protection has written and sent an instruction to all community welfare officers, and these were the asks, that funeral costs, for example, some of which were provided by Caranua, will be provided when necessary to survivors. That went out immediately afterwards from the Minister for Social Protection that week as well. In advance of the agreement, people in my office had contacted and worked with every single Minister, and at an official level, to say this is the agreement, this is what we are signing up to and it has to be delivered.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They ended their hunger strike on 10 November. By the Taoiseach's timeline, he had already been in touch with the relevant Ministers. With the greatest of respect, why does it take that long? The appointment of a liaison person, for example, does not need interdepartmental groupings. The Taoiseach could do that. He could do it now. He could have had it done. He also said that there is an evolving nature to the response. I literally have no idea what that means and I do not think the survivors do either, but they did have some very simple asks. The Taoiseach will be more than well aware of this: they want their medical cards, they want their liaison person and they want the services. As it stands, they are stuck on waiting lists.

They were traumatised, have been retraumatised, and have been psychologically and physically damaged by the State. The Taoiseach apologised, and rightly so, but that apology has no meaning if it is not followed up with the services. I have asked for a timeline bearing in mind they ended their hunger strike on 10 November. It is now 26 February 2026, so the Taoiseach has had three months to put in place the supports they looked for: the medical card and the liaison person. I have asked for a timeline and the Taoiseach's response has been that there will be a timeline. However, saying there will be a timeline is not a timeline. Will the Taoiseach give them a timeline? Did he listen to Mary Dunlevy this morning? My heart nearly broke in half. She sounded broken. I spoke to them when they were on hunger strike. They were determined to see it through. They had right on their side and they knew that. Now, however, it seems that after all that, it has been from 10 November to today and they are still left waiting. Does the Taoiseach understand that the trauma they experienced is happening again and again when a promise is made and a commitment is given and they are broken? I asked for a timeline and I am going to press the Taoiseach on that. Saying there will be a timeline at some point into the future is not a timeline.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I said to the Deputy the communication went out the week after to community welfare officers and the communication went out to the housing sections in local authorities. That is an immediate action that was taken. On the criminal records, that has happened. The statement was issued by the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. That was a significant ask. I have received correspondence, and I will not name people, thanking me and saying that the apology in and of itself meant an enormous deal. I have the letter in my office if the Deputy wants to see. I would respect the privacy of the person who wrote that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not ask the Taoiseach to break any confidence.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, there is an attempt made-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is an attempt to distract.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not interrupt the Deputy. There is an attempt to undermine-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not trying to undermine anything. I am asking for a timeline.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the sincerity of the apology that was given. I did not interrupt the Deputy. I really would appreciate if I got an opportunity to respond. I have been involved in this for a long time and have met many survivors over my political lifetime. I have engaged a lot. There are potentially 4,000 people involved, so a structured, sustainable response is required in terms of making sure we have a proper system in regard to the medical card or the enhanced medical card and health services that they will be entitled to.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is just describing back to me what it is that they are looking for. I have already said that. I am asking for a timeline. Will the Taoiseach give a timeline?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I said that as soon as possible-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They heard that and-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of what was asked for, actions happened already in relation to three or four of the items that were asked for.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are looking for medical cards, a liaison person-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The medical card is one area and-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and health services. Those three things-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The health services generally-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those three things are all that they had looked for.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, the health-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are outstanding. The Government has had months. The Taoiseach has just said he had years. He has been 20-odd years at this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to go into personal situations but health services were provided fairly quickly in some respects. However, the overall system in terms of medical card provision is something the Department of Health is working on.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take a few minutes myself now. I understand there will be a second round and Deputy Timmins will take the Chair for whoever may want to come in at that point. I will keep my questions quite simple and straightforward and I hope I can get the answers that I request. We will see. On Tuesday, the Taoiseach released a statement that said Ireland was politically, economically, diplomatically and militarily standing with Ukraine. In my mind, that is the first time that the Irish Government has stated it is militarily committed to a conflict. We know that politically we are not neutral but we have always been militarily neutral. That statement therefore stood out to me. I want to ask the Taoiseach directly, because they are his words, what exactly he means by that. What does he mean by being militarily committed?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have provided non-lethal military equipment. We have assisted with demining for example. We have been part of demining coalitions with other countries within the European Union supporting Ukraine because demining is an enormous challenge to Ukrainians and will be continue to be so in a post-conflict situation. We have been involved in many demining consortiums over the years in terms of body armour, clothing and a whole range of what we would define as non-lethal military equipment and supports we have provided. We are not in any offensive. We are not part of any military alliance which defines military neutrality in this country. We are not part of NATO.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Just for my understanding, is the Taoiseach saying our military neutrality is solely and simply because we are not members of NATO?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That has always been our view.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Taoiseach think-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is always defined as-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----we can stand militarily with any nation, no matter which it is? We are talking about the fact of our being a militarily neutral state, so wherever the conflict may be, does the Taoiseach believe that we can stand militarily with that country and still remain militarily neutral?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, what I believe is that, if a country is invaded and if the UN Charter is violated, we should do everything we possibly can to support the people whose territorial integrity and sovereignty has been violated. If that means non-lethal assistance, which, by the way, we decided-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Using the term "militarily standing" is a shift.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think the Cathaoirleach is trying to put-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not, I am trying to understand it. I come from a position of believing fully and firmly in our neutrality. I am trying to understand what is happening here because it does seem like a shift to use that word "militarily".

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would disagree with the Cathaoirleach. It seems that some people get shocked when we use the word "military"; I do not. The challenge is what our position is in terms of the UN Charter on supporting people who have been invaded. We stand by the UN Charter. We have given very few weapons, and we have given no weapons to Ukraine other than one, in terms of air defence, to try to protect itself from missiles coming over. It was very minor. The bulk of our support has been on the non-lethal side, on demining and on training. We provided military training, and that was well flagged.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the context-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I ask-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but I would say very clearly, military neutrality has always meant since the Second World War that we are not members of NATO and not members of a military alliance. In terms of the Constitution, we are not members of a mutual defence pact and we may not join one. We have never been politically neutral.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not arguing on that. We are talking about our being militarily neutral, and the use of Shannon Airport and what we saw recently in the news in terms of potential movement through Shannon Airport with Palestinians - the Taoiseach would have seen it reported in the news, although I do not have it in front of me-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was not to do with war or anything like that.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The use of Shannon Airport by the US military raises a serious question on how strong our military neutrality is. I do not believe the Taoiseach can argue that point. I do not see where that would come from. Does the Taoiseach personally believe in our continuing our military neutrality?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do, yes, and I believe, if the Cathaoirleach wants me to say-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I define military neutrality as how it has been commonly understood, which is not being part of a military alliance. I do not believe we need to join any military alliance. However, I believe we need to co-operate with other member states. We negotiated an individual tailored plan with NATO two years ago-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To what level does the Taoiseach believe that can be done?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to make sure that we can learn from others in terms of securing our subsea cables, gas connectors, underwater critical infrastructure, cybersecurity and so forth. You cannot do it on your own. An isolationist approach is crazy in terms of thinking we can do everything on our own - we cannot - because we have to understand the threats and where they are coming from, be they naval or whatever. For example, parts of the Russian shadow fleet have monitored our subsea cables.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the things-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to collaborate with others.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask, one of the biggest issues we have is the total erosion of international law by different military states and by different wars. This is something that has been continuing for a very long time. It is continuing to happen.

We have international and maritime law. The Taoiseach talks about undersea cables and all of that. We have all of those things. However, on a political level internationally it has been allowed for certain states to break international law with very little or no consequences. That leads me to my other question on the occupied territories Bill. When does the Taoiseach see the occupied territories Bill being enacted? If we do not stand up, and I really strongly believe this, to all aggressors, all of those who break international law, we are saying it is okay sometimes. We need to do it every single way it can be done. It has to hit them in the pockets and it does mean that we should say that the Irish football team should not play Israel. It should also absolutely mean that the occupied territories Bill, including services, should be enacted. What is the latest stance on the occupied territories Bill?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First, in terms of the rule of law, yes, it is under threat. The biggest offender is Russia. It is the biggest offender by far.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We cannot let anybody away with breaking international law.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In Europe, I am saying, and let us not pretend and equivocate, Russia is, without question, the most egregious breacher of international law. The number of young people being killed and injured as a result of that war is shocking. I do not know how President Putin sleeps at night. The figures we are getting back are absolutely shocking. This is at the battlefield, apart altogether from what is happening in Kyiv and the bombing of civilian infrastructure. Sometimes that does not get called out enough in the Oireachtas, if I am frank.

We have to be very clear. Ireland was part of the €90 billion loan. If we did not give that, we would be surrendering. We would be saying to Ukraine to surrender and put up the white flag now because we would not be helping its budget or helping it defend itself. These are the moral questions we have to ask ourselves as people. Is what we are saying that we are not going to provide the €90 billion? What is Ukraine going to do then? It would have to surrender and we would be saying to Putin to march into Ukraine and take it all over. That is what you would be saying. Not the Deputy personally, but that is what the implication would be.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is moving away from the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will go back to the occupied territories Bill now if I can.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach has brought the topic back to international law. It is an important piece that is not discussed enough that if we make it okay for certain countries to break international law, then it makes it far more difficult. The problem here is that, yes, Russia is breaking international law, but Israel is as well, and it is not getting the same pushback. If we allow it to happen in certain circumstances - the word is not coming to me - it kind of diminishes the impact if we want to fight back on the breaking of international law.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ireland has stood out in terms of its opposition to Israel on the international plane. Ireland has been one of the strongest countries opposing Israel's war on Gaza.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need to stop the money.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have intervened in the international courts-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the money?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The occupied territories Bill will have no impact financially, just to make that point. Let us all be clear-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then what is the issue with enacting it?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is more symbolic.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then what is the issue with enacting it?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Cathaoirleach let me articulate this? It will have no financial impact, and in fact its implementation is problematic, from what we have heard back from the Office of the Attorney General and during other discussions with customs and so on. However, it is progressing. I do not believe services should be included in the Bill. I have said that repeatedly. I do not believe services should be in the Bill because we will only damage ourselves more than anybody else and we will be embroiling companies. If we go through the mechanics of it-----

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have very little time left.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----how does one implement services? By the way, the bulk, approximately €400,000 worth of goods came into Ireland in 2024 or 2025.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I ask something?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach said he has always said that about services, but in his 2024 election manifesto it did not say that it was excluding services. He is saying it will not have a huge economic impact, but it is important that we stand up and put our head above the parapet. We are still the home state when it comes to Israeli war bonds. We have discussed this. I would like to think that we have banned all services from Russia. If it is possible in that sense, why is it not possible in an Israeli sense?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In every context we have opposed the Israeli war on Gaza. We are now trying to contribute to the peace. It is very difficult and challenging, but there has been some progress. I met with the Palestinian Authority and the Prime Minister only two weeks ago. He said to me the most pressing issue he now has is shelter and to get as much modular housing in as we possibly can. Ireland has always been focused on the basics in terms of supporting Palestinians. We have been a very strong supporter of UNRWA. We protected UNWRA when it was under huge attack, even within the European Union at the height of the war. There are attempts to undermine the Government's positioning on the Middle East - unfairly, in my view - and I believe that if we believe in a two-state solution, we are going to have to work with all the stakeholders involved to try to move this in the right direction towards a conflict resolution space, particularly in terms of disarmament and the decommissioning of Hamas weapons. What Hamas did on 7 October was shocking. It was reprehensible in terms of killing innocent young people. What Israel has done is reprehensible. We now have to try to build a peace.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not have much time left. Does Deputy Brennan have a quick contribution?

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I will be very quick. I have one quick question, and I might get a very quick statement from the Taoiseach. I see €672,000 as a line item for the European Presidency in the Taoiseach’s Vote. I have noticed from several of these select committees that that line item is present in almost every Vote. I have not seen a total figure but I have heard estimates it might be in the region of €300 million. Obviously, there is no direct monetary benefit to Ireland from hosting the Presidency. The benefits, more likely, are intangible. I wish to get a sense from the Taoiseach if he believes that overall the benefits outweigh the monetary cost of doing this, or is this a cost of doing business?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it the cost of doing business?

Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it the cost of doing business or will there be benefits to Ireland in an intangible way?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy summed it up in his use of the word "intangible". For example, if we take the savings investment union, there is a big push to move that on this year. Some of that will fall in the Irish Presidency. Depending on how that falls and lands, it could be enormously beneficial. If we are involved in shaping that at all the meetings, the knowledge our people - officials and so on - gain during the Presidency will be invaluable in corporate knowledge of our public services going forward. The Common Agricultural Policy issue is the biggest issue facing us in agriculture, because in the current multi-annual financial framework it is at a level of 80% of what the previous seven years has been. If we can gain increases through our Presidency and negotiate all of that, even though we will objectively be trying to bring it to a conclusion, that will be a positive.

There are many variables here, but on the big ticket items and the competitiveness agenda, which we want to make a theme of ours, if we can get more simplification, working with the Commission and other like-minded states, and get initiatives like the savings and investment union that accord with our key objectives in that area, there are intangible benefits that flow. My view is, Ireland gets an awful lot out of the European Union because of the Single Market. Enrico Letta, in his presentation to the forum on competitiveness, said we should move from a Single Market to one market. He meant the capital market union and the energy union, because pricing of energy is a key issue. He is right. If we can assist in our capacity during the Presidency in moving Europe in that direction, there will be significant benefits to Ireland because there will be significant benefits to Europe. Europe needs to enhance its competitiveness and its economic performance. If it does that, experience shows that we benefit from that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question is on the child poverty unit. By any measure, the child poverty trend is going in the wrong direction. The number of children living in consistent poverty has been increasing. So too has the number of people with disabilities, who will be on the streets protesting on Saturday against the effective cut that will see €1,400 less coming in. We can call it by another name but €1,400 less coming in is a cut in any man’s language.

Inflation is running at almost double what the Taoiseach predicted. He predicted 1.8% and it was on that basis that his budget was written. Inflation is running at 3.2% at the moment, according to the CSO. Does the Taoiseach have any plans to revise the budget given that supports for children, people with disabilities, lone parents, households at risk of poverty and low-income workers will not keep pace with the rising rate of inflation?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First of all, the budget was heavily weighted towards addressing child poverty and child disability. There was a 20% increase for disability services and an increase in social protection measures. The child support payment saw record increases for over-12s and under-eights.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Taoiseach refer specifically to the relationship between the underlying assumption of 1.8% and the reality of where inflation is at?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think the reality is a forecast of 3% 2026. We will wait and see. It is not 3%. The point is-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is all right to say we will wait and see but there are people who are-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not about waiting to see; we are ahead of it.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach just said we will wait and see.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, but I said we will wait and see what the actual, precise inflation rate turns out to be. Let us not twist my words here.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was not trying to.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I am saying is that we have increased child support benefits way above inflation, or even projected inflation.

The Deputy used a figure of 3%-odd for 2026. I have not seen that figure. In fact, it is trending down. Our increases have been far greater than that. I am referring to the more targeted measures for child poverty. This is the way to deal with it. The amount of child poverty is too high but we are focused. That is why the budget is focused on-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is rising. It is not going in the right direction; it is going in the wrong direction.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The ESRI, in its analysis-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Taoiseach not accept that what has been done for child poverty does not reduce it and in fact increases it, as it is increasing at the moment? Will he not accept that more needs to be done through interim measures to support children currently living in poverty to try to prevent other children from entering the group consistently living in poverty?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry but we are doing an awful lot more. The ESRI figures show that those who benefited most from the budget were in the two lowest income deciles. That is based on an ESRI assessment. The free books scheme for schools, for example, helps children in need.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not where a school needs devices.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The free hot meals and so on in every school have benefited a host of children.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those measures are always welcome when they work.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been a whole series of measures.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me focus on Vote 3. The Estimate for contract legal services for 2025 was €925,000 but the actual figure was €366,000, indicating a massive difference. Happily, the amount turned out to be a lot less. However, it seemed a little off the charts to have a projected figure of €925,000 and a final figure of €366,000.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was to meet the cost of engaging consultant parliamentary counsel and the cost of payments to external counsel or such counsel not paid from the Vote of the Office-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was just a general point.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To explain, the underspend arose-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I see that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By the way, as per my earlier comments, I might not be too happy with that, but anyway.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am glad I brought it to the Taoiseach’s attention.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want more capacity in that office, one way or another.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is looking to spend more, then. With regard to the CSO, the expenditure is going to be up by 25% compared with the figure for 2025. I am aware that a census is coming down the track, but it will not be until May 2027. Is there a lot of preparatory work bumping the figure up? An increase of 25% is very significant.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but the preparatory work leading up to the census will be quite significant. That is my understanding of it.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to Vote 5, concerning the DPP, there is double-digit growth. To go back to our original conversation on outputs, on which we both agree, the output targets for 2026 are in line with those of 2025. We are spending more but are we getting more output?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. We will go back to the office and I will try to get a reply for the Deputy. It could be about case complexity, but I do not want to surmise here. I believe the Deputy’s point is valid and I will ask the office for a response on it.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to Vote 6, concerning the Office of the Chief State Solicitor, there is again additional expenditure. I am aware that the Taoiseach is very involved in and committed to the shared island expenditure. I therefore ask him for his support on an initiative I raised earlier this year, namely, the American Presidents trail. The commemoration unit in the Department of culture is liaising with the local authorities of areas where former American Presidents have ancestry. It is about creating an American Presidents trail.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A very good idea.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has obvious benefits. I believe 23 American Presidents have Irish ancestry. Half of them are from Northern Ireland and half are from the South. It is a great initiative to link the North and South. Additionally, there are tourism benefits. I believe it very much ticks the box of the shared island initiative. I ask the Taoiseach to support it in any manner he can through his Department.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is an excellent idea. If it is being developed in the host Department, I will check with it regarding bringing forward-----

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware that the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland is also very well disposed towards the initiative.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are open to that. For example, I recently announced programme funding of €2.5 million for the Wild Atlantic Way, the Giant’s Causeway route and an all-island trail along the coast, with various tourist amenities underpinning it. We are very open to those kinds of proposals. We funded three tourism projects last year in or around the Carlingford–Mournes area to get ready for the bridge, so it will become a destination of choice as opposed to somewhere you pass through. Certainly, if the Deputy’s proposal could be concretised and flesh could be put on its bones, it would certainly be one that could be funded through the shared island fund.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach very much.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just to let members know, allegedly it was a Corkman who, in a letter, was the first man to use the phrase "United States of America". It was Stephen Moylan. I apologise for raising that.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have to retort by saying that none of the American Presidents have Cork ancestry.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. I accept that too. We were too busy getting independence for Ireland and running the country afterwards.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will leave the Taoiseach with the last word. Does he wish to make any closing remarks?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank members for their engagement and their pertinent and interesting questions.

Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach and his officials for assisting the committee with its consideration of the Revised Estimates.