John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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No apologies have been received. I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters before we begin. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind members attending remotely of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I will ask members participating via MS Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all those in attendance to make sure that their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

The first item on the agenda is our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2026, Vote 37 - Social Protection. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and his officials to the meeting to discuss the aforementioned Revised Estimates. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimates, it is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure to make the budgetary process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues.

The Revised Estimates for Vote 37 - Social Protection were presented to the Dáil on 17 December 2025. The social protection Vote is significant in terms of the overall expenditure, accounting for €29.8 billion, approximately 29% of the total annual budget. The important functions, roles and responsibilities bestowed on the Department are reflected in its budgetary allocation. We, as representatives, see the issues that arise for people across the length and breadth of the country. As a committee, we look forward to engaging with the Minister on the allocation, impacts, outputs and, critically, the outcomes as part of the performance budgeting process.

I now call the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to make some brief opening remarks, which will be followed by questions.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, le baill an choiste agus le cléireach agus foireann an choiste don chuireadh a thabhairt dom bheith ina gcomhluadar inniu chun plé a dhéanamh ar na Meastacháin Athbhreithnithe don Roinn Coimirce Sóisialaí don bhliain 2026. I thank the Chairman, the members, the clerk and the team for their invitation to attend to discuss the 2026 Revised Estimates for the Department of Social Protection. This is an important discussion which provides a key opportunity to engage with the committee and the Oireachtas to set out in detail the funding available to my Department and our plans for what might be achieved with these critical resources. Members' feedback is of crucial importance to me. We may not always agree, but I hope we will have open and constructive engagement on the issues.

The Department invested over €2.75 billion last month in supporting various groups within society, including families with children, pensioners, people with disabilities, carers and working age individuals facing different contingencies. We have already delivered several key elements of the Government’s social protection programme including the launch of My Future Fund, which is supporting more than 760,000 people to save, for the first time, for their retirement. This is a significant milestone, one which will have positive implications for so many people in the years ahead.

In framing the financial Estimates position for 2026, and comparing it with the outturn for 2025, my officials have sought to provide the committee with a like-for-like comparison between the two years. This includes isolating estimates for the cost of the Christmas bonus, for example, which is outside of the normal business as usual profile and is separately identified in the briefing documents which were given to members before today. I thank my officials for the work they put into those documents.

The Revised Estimates, which the committee is to consider today, reflect a provision for 2026. As we have seen already, this is a year which continues to reflect the ongoing socio-political uncertainty across the world. Projected spending for the Department in 2026 is €28.9 billion, compared with a provisional outturn for 2025 of €27.4 billion. This represents a year-on-year increase of over €1.5 billion in funding, or 5.7%, over double the rate of inflation in the 12 months to December 2025.

The work of our Department is broad in scope and supports people through their lifetime. The Department supports people from the birth of their children through the payment of child benefit and the new baby bonus through to the provision of sustaining income support when people attain pension age and qualify for the State pension. The Department's expenditure of €28.9 billion for 2026 continues to be the largest of any Department, representing over 29% of gross current Government expenditure.

With this level of expenditure, we must ensure our social protection system is properly structured and provides support when people need it most, whether this is the regular weekly financial transfers that help families put food on the table or more acute critical support in a time of family crisis. We have seen, for example, in the last 13 months the devastating effects of storms Éowyn and Chandra. The Department's budget for the emergency response payment is a particular example of our flexibility of response. Driven by the devastation caused by Storm Éowyn, my Department spent almost €15.5 million supporting people across the country last year, and the Oireachtas provided additional expenditure for this as part of the 2025 Supplementary Estimate. In recent weeks, we have seen our community welfare service support people across the country, responding to Storm Chandra. It is a testament to the agility of our staff, our systems and our schemes that they responded repeatedly and effectively to challenges such as these. I know the committee will join me in acknowledging this work and thanking the 7,000-plus staff of the Department across the country.

The 2025 provisional outturn expenditure of €27.4 billion represents a return to the standard pattern of social protection spending, where the substantial difference in end of year expenditure is the Christmas bonus, which was paid to 1.5 million people in December. Budget 2026 also provided over €1.1 billion in targeted measures, which the ESRI's post-budget analysis has shown are more effective in protecting most households from rising prices, especially the most vulnerable in our society.

Moving into 2026, from the start of January we saw a wide range of social protection increases come into effect. These include a €10 across the board increase to weekly rates, along with the largest ever increases in the child support payment, a €20 increase in the monthly rate of domiciliary care allowance and a €5 increase in the fuel allowance payment. Other changes, including to the carer's allowance means disregards and the wage subsidy scheme, will be introduced later in the year. All of these measures are reflected in the expenditure subheads presented before the committee today.

The biggest single block of expenditure in 2026 will be on pensions. This will amount to more than €12 billion, or just under 42% of overall expenditure, which is up by almost €521 million from the 2025 outturn. The majority of this increase is driven by additional recipient numbers - a fact which reflects the ever-increasing demographic challenge. Thankfully, we are all living longer lives but that, of course, means an increasing proportion of the Department's expenditure is now providing income support for people in their older years. Expenditure on illness, disability and carer's payments amounts to €6.5 billion in 2026, which represents 22.5% of the Department's expenditure. As with the pensions programme, as the population ages this is an expenditure line that is increasing.

Working-age income supports will account for 15.5% of expenditure in 2026, at €4.45 billion. This includes payments for jobseekers, one-parent families, maternity and paternity payments, and supplementary welfare allowance. An important change under this programme, which is reflected in the Revised Estimates, was the launch in March last of pay-related jobseeker's benefit, which will help cushion the income shock which comes with unemployment. In 2025, more than 62,000 people have been supported through pay-related jobseeker's benefit.

Expenditure on employment supports in 2026 is estimated at €734 million, which represents just over 2.5% of total expenditure. These supports are not only hugely important for the individuals who receive them but also through the services provided by programmes such as community employment, Tús, and the rural social scheme. These and other employment support schemes provide vital help to assist people transition from welfare to employment.

Expenditure on children and families will account for just under 11% of expenditure, at €3.15 billion, of which over €2.2 billion will be spent on child benefit.

Expenditure on supplementary payments is just over €1 billion. It represents 3.7% of 2026 expenditure.

This year, we have added a new programme to Vote 37 for auto-enrolment, with projected expenditure of just under €178 million, or 0.6% of overall 2026 expenditure. This new programme represents the culmination of years of work by teams within the Department, in collaboration with other agencies including Revenue, the Chief State Solicitor's Office and the Attorney General's office, and with payroll providers and employers, with trade unions and business organisations the length and breadth of the country. In recent months, we have established the National Automatic Enrolment Retirement Savings Authority, NAERSA. It will independently manage My Future Fund, the State's auto-enrolment retirement savings system, which launched at the start of this year. Since its inception, over 763,000 employees have been enrolled. These people are now saving, many for the first time, for their retirement. This represents over 105,000 employers across the State who registered with NAERSA and are returning savings contributions as part of payroll submissions.

Funds made available under the new departmental programme as part of Vote 37 will serve two purposes in 2026: for the long term, this will channel the State top-up moneys additional to savers' funds - the cherry on top, as it were; and in the short term, it will separately provide start-up funding to NAERSA, supporting its operations until it becomes self-supporting. This represents a major milestone in a transformative programme of pensions delivery in Ireland, and I look forward to continuing to work with the committee, but also with NAERSA, on this important issue.

I have provided a broad overview of the Department's expenditure for 2026. It is broad, but I hope comprehensive in line with the briefing documents that we provided. The provision of such extensive resources to me as Minister is a very significant responsibility and I am determined that my Department will deploy these resources effectively and efficiently for the benefit of all of our citizens, especially the most vulnerable, continuing to deliver on the Government's ongoing programme of social protection supports this year. I look forward to engaging with committee and answering any questions members may have.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I will now take questions from members on the Vote. First up is Deputy Louise O'Reilly.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for being here this morning, and also the staff in his Department who are very busy but are always available to answer queries and calls, etc., from us. For that, we are very grateful.

There is reference made to employment support schemes within the Estimates here. As the Minister will be aware, the national youth council has sounded the alarm, not only in relation to the rising rate of youth unemployment, which, although I accept unemployment rates are low, is rising at a faster rate than the rate of the general population. It is also expressing a concern about the underemployment of young people. It estimates that there are approximately 100,000 people in this category and that number is growing. In terms of the employment support schemes, is it envisaged that there will be specific schemes to deal directly with the issue of youth unemployment? I am not being alarmist, and I do not expect the Minister to be either, but it is a concern when the unemployment within any group is rising at three times the rate of that within the general population.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy O'Reilly for her question. The youth unemployment rate, which is the unemployment rate for those between 15 and 24, is at 9.8% for quarter 4 of 2025. That is down from 9.9% a year ago. It is up from 9.4% two years ago. Youth employment actually rose by 6,000 people in 2025 and there are 323,200 young people in employment. The NEET rate, which is the measure of young people not in employment, education or training, is 6.3%, which is well below the EU average. However, I see the trends and I accept that. We are working currently on a success to Pathways to Work where we will prioritise young people.

In relation to the employment support schemes generally, we had a very good meeting yesterday with the Chairman and the Vice Chairman of the joint committee, reflecting some of the discussions the committee has had about community employment, CE, Tús and the rural social scheme, RSS. The Chair of the joint committee and the Vice Chair, Senator Rabbitte, met with me and officials yesterday and we are going to engage with them around making sure those schemes are relevant. We have made some specific changes to Tús, for example, to encourage young people who are neither in education nor in employment to partake in Tús and get experiences there.

I am very much open to suggestions around the employment support schemes. I am particularly focused. We have strong figures of young people in employment at the moment, but I am watching the figures very closely.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I encourage the Minister to meet the National Youth Council of Ireland because it has no end of very good ideas. It would be more than happy to meet him and discuss that with him.

In relation to the statistics recently published that showed that 15.5% of one-parent recipients were being underpaid, the Department has staff who are dedicated to tackling fraud. While that is important, are there any resources directed at ensuring that people who for whatever reason are not accessing their full entitlements get them? Does the Minister have information on that or any plans to address it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We want to make sure that everyone is getting their full entitlements. We work with all of our clients in ensuring that they are getting the full supports. Obviously, control is a very important part of the Department. We have to ensure that we invest the money correctly. There was an anomaly around that specific issue. Once the Deputy highlighted it, we addressed it within the Department. I will get the Deputy a note on the background to it. Certainly, we responded very quickly to it and the anomaly was addressed.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to know. The note will be very welcome.

I wish to put a scenario to the Minister. He might be able to help me with a conundrum I face in my constituency. A young lady came in. She was on a pay-as-you-go meter. She was not getting any money until the next day. For example, we will say that she was in my constituency office on a Wednesday and she was not getting any money until the Thursday. She did not have any money for the meter. She was already paying for electricity at the highest rate. If she was a data centre, she could get the electricity cheap, but she is not. She is just a young woman who is struggling with her two kids. She came into my constituency office and I sent her around the corner to the Intreo office where she was advised that she could make an appointment and could apply for supplementary welfare. That is no use to her when she has no electricity. When people are on those meters and they have used their emergency up, they do not have any scope. She came back around to my office. We can advise people to go to Society of St. Vincent de Paul and all of that. As the Minister can imagine, people do not necessarily want to do that either, or if they have already been to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, they might not want to go back. That is no disrespect to the society or the work that it does. In that scenario, what rapid resources are available to a young woman and her two kids when her house is cold?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am not going to comment on this specific case. In scenarios like that, there is provision to make immediate payment. We will update the guidance-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the Minister could give me a note on that and circulate it to everybody-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I have committed previously, and we are doing it next week. We have an information seminar this day week with our community welfare officer, CWO, service in the audiovisual room, but also on an ongoing basis upstairs in the coffee dock area so that people can come and speak to the service. I ask the Deputy to send a note to my office and we will engage on that specific case. There are provisions for making immediate payments in situations specifically like that. I do not understand-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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She was specifically not advised of those. She would have been cold in her home.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Part of what I want to do next week is to give people contact points in the CWO service like we have with Oireachtas lines so that Members or their teams can make interventions in cases like that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is very welcome.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Minister and all the officials are very welcome here this morning. I have a couple of questions. Will the Minister outline the principal changes between the original and Revised Estimate of Vote 37 and specify which schemes account for the largest increases or reductions in expenditure?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his question. Our biggest expenditure - I hate using the word "expenditure", as I see social protection as an investment; it is an important difference - is in pensions. As we are all living longer and healthier, we are increasing our expenditure on pensions. Pensions will be 42% of our overall expenditure for 2026. That is an increase of €521 million from the 2025 outturn. Our demographics are changing. The Chair is travelling to an OECD event in relation to that. We are in a better position at the moment than most other European countries, in that our demographics are younger. We currently have four workers for every person over the age of 66. By 2050, which is not that far away, believe it or not, we will only have two. At the moment, our pension provision is healthy, but we have to continue to invest it. That is why auto-enrolment is so important. We have a new measure this year for auto-enrolment, which speaks to the success of auto-enrolment, the State contribution and the initial seed funding for NAERSA.

Illness, disability and carers' payments will be 22.5% of the Department's investment at €6.5 billion. That is also increasing. Working age income supports is 15.5%. The overall figure for illness, disability and carers at €6.5 billion is also going to increase in line with the demographics as they change, so consideration will have to given to that as well.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have five questions, so I ask the Minister to be brief, please. Given rising living costs, how does the Revised Estimate ensure that the core social welfare payments retain their value? What analysis has been conducted on adequacy rates?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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All the social welfare increases this year are ahead of the inflation rate. There is the €10 increase in all the weekly payments and €20 for domiciliary care. We have increased by record amounts the child support payments, which are paid to those on welfare in respect of over-12s and under-12s.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What is the percentage of that increase?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The percentage is about 5%. I have the figure here somewhere.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. I will ask my next question, but I acknowledge the increases. What assumptions underpin the projected expenditure on jobseeker payments and disability allowances and how sensitive are these projects to changes in employment levels or demographic trends?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to jobseekers, we look at all the trends regarding the economy and we budget accordingly. This year, there has been very strong employment growth and record employment. In a time of massive uncertainty, we have budgeted for that uncertainty in relation to unemployment figures.

Similarly on disability, we look at the growing trends. We look at the trends of the population. There is a labour market forecast paper prepared by the Department for the Department of public expenditure every year. We engage with the Department of public expenditure on that throughout the year. We engage very intensively with it ahead of the budget with the most up-to-date figures that we have.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister provide details of the administrative and staffing costs within Vote 37 and explain what efficiency measures are being implemented to ensure maximum value for the public expenditure?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Our expenditure and administration budget is split between Vote 37 and the Social Insurance Fund. There will be an increase in salary variance this year. A total of 46% of that is in salaries under subhead A1 and 20% is the single pensions scheme, digital transformation and the Presidency. Our digital team in the Department does extraordinary work in terms of our services. We are one of the most advanced digital operators in the country in terms of the delivery of services. A total of 11% is premises, 9% is further investment in IT and 20% of the increase is payment for agency services. We have a new cash payment services contract. The increases are factors in that allocation.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What contingency provisions are included within the Revised Estimate to respond to unexpected economic shocks or increased demand for supports and how quickly could additional funding be deployed if required?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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As I said in my opening statement, we provided €15.5 million during Storm Éowyn. In the past few weeks, we provided funding due to Storm Chandra. We have the capacity to respond to shocks. Within the Social Insurance Fund, we have a record surplus. We can use that if we need an economic response around jobseekers and pensions. Hopefully, we will not need to come back to committee, but in the event of additional expenditure, we showed during in Storm Éowyn that we have capacity to deliver on it. Most importantly, our teams in the Department deliver on it on the ground.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister very much. On paper, it looks like the Department has loads of money.

No wonder it was the most sought after one in the Government. A nicer person could not have got it than the Minister.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Thanks.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and all his staff for coming in, and the staff who are not here. The increases in the non-contributory pension have been welcomed by many pensioners, but for many in local authority housing, their rents then went up. I read a letter in The Irish Times this morning about an 80-year-old couple who got a letter yesterday stating there would be a rent increase of €24 a week. There has been no change in circumstances since they retired and they have been tenants with Dublin City Council for 40 years. It is very unfair that as soon as they get that additional money in the State pension, it is wiped out straight away with a rent increase. That is €100 a month for this couple in their 80s and the increase in the State pension is wiped out just like that.

A lot of people say that the Department is not supporting them. The Minister has €1.5 billion more at his disposal than last year. We see disability campaigners struggling with winter payments and a cost-of-living crisis in energy, with almost 450,000 people in energy poverty.

Before the general election, the Government said it would abolish the carer's allowance means test. According to the Citizens Information Service, from June, the disregard for carer's allowance will increase from €625 to €1,000 for a single person and from €1,250 to €2,000 for a couple. Has the Minister any idea as to when the means test for carers will be done away with?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are dealing with the issue of local authority rents across the country. Local authorities have reviewed rents this year. It is a local authority and Department of housing issue. It is my job to ensure that we get money to pensioners, be they in receipt of non-contributory or contributory pensions. I cannot comment on that.

In relation to the cost of energy, we have increased the fuel allowance by €5 a week to €38. From next Monday, those on the working family payment will have access to the fuel allowance. Dating back to 1 January, we will make back payments on the fuel allowance to those on the working family payment across the month of March. We also have additional needs payments for people. As mentioned in the conversation we had with Deputy O'Reilly, those are also available to people in energy need.

Even in the context of a €28.9 billion budget, I assure the Deputy that there were loads of other things we wanted. This team around me here are some of the best in the business in fighting for resources, but resources are not endless either.

On carer's allowance, from June, we will introduce the biggest increase in the income disregard. It will take effect from 1 July. The weekly income disregard will be increased by 60% from €625 to €1,000 for a single person and from €1,250 to €2,000 for carers with a spouse or partner. Since June 2022, it has been a cumulative increase of €667.50 for a single person and €1,335 for a couple, which is over 200%. The direction of travel is very clear there. I will not set a date because we have other priorities as well, but I will be very clear that I intend during my term as Minister to see an end to the means test for carer's allowance.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I just feel that with this level of expenditure, we must ensure our social protection system is properly structured to provide supports when people need them most. After the budget, people with disabilities will tell you that they are €1,400 worse off than they were last year. They need a bit of help now. We must look after people with disabilities. I know it can be said that they are getting this and that but if they are worse off than last year and the cost of everything has gone up, something needs to be done for them.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are doing that, Deputy. We have opened the consultation on a permanent cost-of-disability payment. That opened last Friday until 7 April. I have written separately to the Chairman asking the committee for its feedback on it as well. My intention is that this will be a permanent payment - it will not go from budget to budget - that will reflect the cost of disability. I hope to have that consultation process completed ahead of budget 2027 discussions and that we will have a permanent payment.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few short questions. The Irish Cancer Society asked me to put a question to the Minister in relation to ancillary State supports, such as the household benefits package, being made available for those in end-of-life care. Has the Department considered same?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are constantly reviewing the household benefits package. The Deputy mentioned a very good case. It is something I would have to look at in the context of budget 2027. We are happy to engage with the Deputy, the cancer group within the Oireachtas and the Irish Cancer Society on it, but it would very much be a budget 2027 discussion.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The telephone support allowance is obviously not a stand-alone payment. It is in the bundle of what people get in terms of their social welfare payment. It is now at €2.50 a week. We are hearing from a lot of people, especially elderly people and those living alone, who have given us the information that they are finding it hard to access communications devices and the Internet. The average cost of broadband is €45 a month. That does not include the device needed to access it, so a lot of elderly people just cannot afford it. Has the Minister considered increasing the telephone allowance aspect as part of the budget negotiations, just so it covers broadband?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We looked at it generally in the context of the budget. I focused on the increase in the weekly payment. I also focused the specific increases in this year's budget on the fuel allowance, which we introduced on 1 January. We looked at this matter but I wanted to focus on the universal payment of the weekly rate and the increase in the fuel allowance for energy, in particular. We can certainly engage with the Department of public expenditure in the context of budget 2027. The Deputy made a very strong point, though, that it is not just telephones any more; it is broadband. Communications are very different from where they were ten years ago, and especially from when the allowance was first introduced.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I sat on this committee in 2016 with our former colleague John Curran. One of the policies he mooted was to have a sort of bulk-buying for social welfare recipients, with the State purchasing broadband utilities. Sometimes, there are competition issues, but it would just be so that the State got value for money for the end user. Is that something the Department has considered?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It is something on which we would have to engage with our colleagues in the Department of communications, and with the Ministers, Deputies O'Brien and O'Donovan. It is something I have not given any consideration to in my term as Minister but I am happy to engage with the Deputy on it.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will talk about something I raise a few times every year, which is the threshold for the fuel allowance. The fuel allowance is obviously a payment but when people qualify for fuel allowance, they also have access to ancillary services. Especially in my area, house wrapping is really sought after. When people qualify for fuel allowance, it is targeted and works well with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, just transition and retrofitting. I again ask for an increase in the threshold for fuel allowance.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We will look at it. My focus this year was on an increase in the rate, particularly in the context of the cost of energy. I actively looked at increasing the qualification criteria for it as well but, unfortunately, in a budget situation, you cannot get everything you want. Fuel allowance is definitely something, in a similar vein to the communications allowance, that we need to revise and update.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The hot school meals programme is a huge success. It is a fabulous programme. A lot of people comment that there is a lot of waste in schools, though, and I have certain questions over the quality of some of the school meals.

Has the Department considered putting in minimum nutrition guidelines and minimum protein guidelines and maybe working with the Department of education to have that education for kids? My kids are in the age group where they are attending school but they are not really learning about nutrition that young and it is something that should be done hand in hand with the hot school meals programme. It is a great success because a lot of children would not get a hot school meal but for it, but the nutritional aspect should be looked at.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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With the hot school meals programme we have a cross-departmental committee with the Departments of education and Health. The programme is guided by 16 different nutritional standards. The Department of Social Protection has funded within the Department of Health the employment of a CORU-registered dietitian. She has begun the work of identifying the nutrition aspect of the school meals and she has predominantly done desktop work. She is now visiting schools to see what meals go there. I absolutely agree with the Deputy. I want the meals to be as nutritious as possible. I want them to stand up to the 16 different standards around nutrition. We will be engaging much more with the Departments of education and Health around a whole-of-government approach to school meals and to nutrition for children generally. That is why, instead of having a dietitian within the Department of Social Protection, we have funded the position in the Department of Health. She works with her peers and her colleagues. My initial aim is to get a good basis on the nutritional side. What has been predominant so far is that the majority of the school meals are, but there are issues arising and we will focus on that.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him and his officials for this opportunity. I have a number of questions and I will go through them as they come to me. The first is the cost-of-disability payment. I welcome the consultation the Minister started. Has he budgeted for a cost-of-disability payment in these Estimates? Is there much money in there for such a payment? Will the Minister give a timeframe as to the next steps in the cost-of-disability payment?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be in this year's Estimates. We opened the consultation last Friday. The consultation will finish on 7 April and there has already been quite extensive engagement with it. We will have a strategic focused network summit on disability and the cost of disability on 13 May, where we will ask a lot of the groups involved with this to come together - it will be a whole-of-government summit - to give them feedback on the consultation, but most importantly, to get their feedback on it. We will invite the Chair of this committee to attend and also the Chair of the committee on disability. Then I hope to be in a position to engage on a proposal around it ahead of budget 2027 talks. As with all budgets, I cannot predict anything, but it will be a priority for me going into those talks.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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When the Minister has that meeting on 13 May, will he also invite cross-party disability spokespersons? I think that was what was missing from the previous one. I am not sure if any of them were there. I know there were none from my own party. It is very important the Chairs the Minister mentioned are there but also that we get an input from all parties because that would be very beneficial to the process and maybe some ideas they would have would be as well. If that invite could be extended, it would be brilliant.

I regularly go to the Minister in relation to the domiciliary care allowance, DCA. I am going to ask again about the raising of the age limit from 16 to 18 and the cost involved in that. Unfortunately, I hear from so many people who are having to prove their child has a disability because the DCA stops at age 16, and these are lifetime disabilities. I think this is wrong and the DCA should go to at least age 18. I would like to hear the Minister's comments on that.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, I want the summit to be open. We will invite the Chairs and we will also invite this committee, along with Deputy Keogh and the committee on disability, to give a submission. I want as many people as possible to be involved in this.

I will come back to the Deputy on the DCA. I have looked at this issue and my focus on the DCA last year was when there were huge delays in the payments. We have tried to address those in terms of getting applications turned around. There are a lot of broader issues around increasing the DCA to the age of 18 and that would be part of a broader discussion. The issue has been raised on both fronts, that is, not raising it past the age of 16 and raising it past the age of 18, but I initially wanted to focus on the delays in payments and we have resolved most of those. There are still a few cases coming to me.

As for the broader issue, one can apply for disability allowance, DA, three months ahead of the child's 16th birthday to ensure there is not a cliff edge in the fall from DCA to DA and that people are not left exposed in that way. We have opened up applications more quickly and it has made for a lot quicker turnaround for those applications.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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The cliff edge is actually proving that one's child has a disability. That is the huge cliff edge. Maybe we could talk about that again.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to engage with the Deputy on that.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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It is a very important conversation that I am having with so many parents at the moment.

We have spoken about the community welfare service before and the issues I raised and I welcome the fact we will have that consultation next week.

The issue of the cost of winter heating has been discussed and I have raised it with the Minister. I have previously mentioned that there was a very low uptake of the heating supplement available through the community welfare officers, CWOs, given the number of people who are in receipt of the carer's allowance and disability payments. In the Estimates the Minister has in front of him, has he provided for any additional payment of a heating supplement to try to counteract the problems people are having. It is set up already and working for so many people but there has been a very low uptake. I have asked the Minister and his Department to advertise it a bit more because it can be a solution for people who find themselves in difficulties.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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To come back to the DCA and the disability issue, I am not sure what the work programme of the committee is like, and I keep loading stuff on it, but it would be good to have a general discussion on the age 16 to age 18 issue. I would appreciate the committee's feedback because it is something I am giving a lot of thought to and I would like a steer from the committee.

I will again push the event on CWOs next week. It is the one issue I get feedback on from across the House on. It is a chance for people to engage with the CWO service, not just in the audiovisual room for an hour but directly, because they will be here, and we will also hold events in the regions so that people can meet their local CWOs.

The heating supplement payment is not restricted to the fuel season but is across the year. We had 680 people in receipt of it at the end of January. It is under "other supplements" so we have additional expenditure that also goes to travel supplements and we will certainly engage in promoting it more and making people more aware of it. That is something I committed to a number of weeks back.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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The Minister mentioned the Social Insurance Fund surplus. What is the surplus?

Citizens information appeared before the joint committee meeting last week. We are all aware of the terrific website it has and we, as public representatives, have ventured on to its website, as I am sure the Minister has as well over the past while. He mentioned a lot of investment in the Department's IT structures but the citizens information website is vital for every public representative in this country. Will the Minister assure us he will continue to invest in citizens information?

What are the problems with AI? I mentioned on the last day during the meeting with citizens information that there is a lot of misinformation out there, people are googling a lot more than they were and it is not Dr. Google any more but Professor Google, unfortunately. How is the Minister counteracting that in his Department?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The current Social Insurance Fund surplus is €13.7 billion. That is a reflection of the very strong employment figures. I have been here long enough to have seen how surpluses can change very quickly. I went through the demographics and what is ahead of us in the years to come earlier. While €13.7 billion sounds very impressive and it is, and it is a testament to a lot of people who are working very hard, we cannot get carried away either.

The Department's approach to digital is digital by desire. If people want to use it, it is there for them to use. I got a note on the meeting with citizens information. It does super work and we all use it. Citizens information's work is all led by itself. It researches all its information itself, so we can stand over the fact there is no misinformation there and that it is good, solid information.

In regard to the Department's delivery of service by digital means, again it is done by digital by desire but our services reflect how, generally, services are transitioning to digital payments and digital engagement with the Department. We are investing significantly, and most importantly, in protecting people's information. We have a super-qualified IT team in the Department who are very invested in this space, in protecting information and providing the most appropriate services that are digitally available. I am slightly old style in that I like, particularly in this Department, for there to be human interaction.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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Absolutely.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Human interaction is absolutely vital.

We have to have it. In many of the circumstances people face, they do not want to talk to a computer. They want a digital assistant. As long as I am Minister, that human interaction will be core.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and all of his officials for coming in this morning and giving us this briefing. I have a few overarching questions and then, if I have some more time, I might go into some specific schemes. According to this report, the amount being invested in auto-enrolment is €156 million. The figure provided to me in response to a recent parliamentary question was €124 million. Does an increased uptake account for that? The Minister was estimating that about 730,000 people would participate but perhaps 760,000 did. When there is that kind of increase, where does the money come from?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are ahead of schedule and ahead of demand. We have reached 763,000, which speaks to the success of the programme. I thank all of the employers who have registered people and who have really co-operated with this. In advance of the scheme, a lot of people were saying that employers would not co-operate. The extra expenditure will be provided for from the central fund. Over time, the money we are providing in NAERSA set-up costs can be paid back to the central fund. As of now, I am very happy with where auto-enrolment is. We are-----

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Will the Minister clarify what he means by "central fund"?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I mean the central departmental fund.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is the allocation from the Department of public expenditure and reform.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, an increase will be provided. We will be coming back to the committee later in 2026 with a Revised Estimate. We will be able to provide the full figure at that time.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Between budget 2026 and today, that Department has given the Minister's Department an extra-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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No, it comes from within the Department's fund. We can allocate funding from other areas of Department and we have contingency funds for small-----

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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What got cut then?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We will come back to the Deputy on that. I will give him a note on the actual costs.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is fair enough. A lot of my questions are to help me understand. There are Estimates at the start of the year but things then change by the end of the year because it is a demand-led Department. What does that variance for the Department typically look like over the course of a year?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is no variance. For a good bit of this morning's meeting, we have been dealing with events. Some events are unanticipated, such as Storm Éowyn. The big variance from year to year is the Christmas bonus. We do not account for that. We come back for a Revised Estimate for it after the budget every year.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I may not have explained my question very well. Let us say that, at the start of the year, the Department thinks there are going to be 730,000 people in auto-enrolment, but it ends up being 850,000. That has an implication for the amount of funds that go through. How has the Department historically managed that change? What is that variance typically?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We manage it through Supplementary Estimates, for which we-----

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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What is the average variance year to year?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have an average figure. We can give the Deputy an analysis of that. We come back to the committee and to the House with a Supplementary Estimate, whatever that might look like. It is a very disciplined Department in terms of that kind of work.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I am sure it is. It would just be helpful for me to understand the budgetary process. There is an additional €60 million for administration this year and an additional €600 million for the Social Insurance Fund surplus. These investments need to happen. I agree with the Minister that the Social Insurance Fund has to be protected. However, a balance must be struck between using the Social Insurance Fund for the benefits it has to provide for people and maintaining the surplus. How is that balance decided? Is there a target surplus for the Social Insurance Fund from year to year? Is there a target for the proportion of benefits that need to come out of the fund? How does that decision get made?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We work very closely with the Department of Finance on the Social Insurance Fund. Over the last three years, we have recorded increasing surpluses. As I said earlier, the accumulated surplus is over €13 billion. We invest those surpluses in Exchequer notes. We engage very strongly with the NTMA and the Department of Finance in that regard. It is a pay-as-you-go fund. If there is a shortfall at any stage, as there has been at times, we have to go back to the Exchequer to make up that shortfall so that we can continue to make payments. Our most up-to-date actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund is predicting a potential deficit in the post-2035 period. That is why we have a pension reform programme involving small increases in PRSI going towards pension sustainability. The fund is very healthy today but it may not be in ten years' time.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is at the core of it. A deficit is predicted and the Minister is responsible for managing the fund and making sure it is healthy into the future. At the same time, he is saying there are certain benefits he would like to give on a year-to-year basis, and I welcome those increases to those benefits. How does he make that decision? Is there a particular surplus he is targeting to get rid of that deficit after 2035? Does that restrain the benefit increases he can give?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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You have to be very careful about increases to benefits. With the Social Insurance Fund, you always have to have a view to the future. We have an agreed programme of increases to PRSI. These take place in October every year and are specifically designed with a view to pension and other benefits. That decision was taken on the back of the report of the Pensions Commission in 2022. Action was taken by my predecessor, the then Minister, Heather Humphreys.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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On the DCA, I have a family member who lives on the other side of the river. He had two twins last year and, unfortunately, they have some mild disabilities. He is engaged with the CDNT. He has joined a group for dads in a similar position. There was a bit of a discussion about the DCA. The discussion on the WhatsApp group concluded that everyone gets refused the DCA the first time they apply. A social worker in this WhatsApp group agreed. I encourage the Minister to look at that. It would be very helpful if he could come back to the committee with figures as to how many first-time applications to the DCA are refused, what percentage that equates to, and the number that are then reviewed or appealed and reinstated. It is really important that people in that particular position get the help they are entitled to.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to provide those figures. During our engagement with this committee last year, Deputies Mark Wall and Louise O'Reilly raised the delays in first-time DCA applications. We allocated extra resources to reducing those delays and to addressing the appeals backlog. I am certainly happy to engage with the Deputy on the figures. This goes back to Deputy Wall's question. I am anxious to have human engagement in this space. Last year, going back to the concept of digital by desire, we moved the DCA to an online application. That increased the number of applications coming in. We have addressed the turnaround time. I am happy to get feedback on the DCA from any group. As I have said, I am really interested in getting feedback from the committee on that 16 to 18 age group.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for being here this morning. Somebody mentioned earlier that his is a sought-after Department. Looking from the outside in, it seems to be the one with the most moving parts to keep the clock ticking with regard to what it has to support. I was taken by what the Minister said about the old style and how human intervention or interaction is best. He should stay with that because all of us have the belief, or at least I do, that, while desk clerk academics have good intentions, they sometimes miss out on the juicy bits.

The Minister said he intends to abolish the means test by the end of this Government's term. I had anticipated that might have happened earlier than the end. Is there a date for that? Is there a year in which the Minister expects that to be implemented?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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On the digital side of it, the Deputy and I are going out of date. Some 40% of our applications for the DCA now come in online and that service was only brought in less than a year ago. It just shows the trend of where people are going.

In relation to carers, the programme for Government commits to abolishing the means test over the lifetime of the Government. I have to fit that in with budgetary issues. The record increases in the disregards we have introduced this year and since 2022, totalling an increase of 200%, very definitely show the direction of travel and my ambition to get this done as quickly as possible.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I will focus for a second on the invaluable work our LEADER companies and development companies are involved in.

We see the enormous benefit the rural social schemes bring to communities. If I was made Minister in the morning, I would certainly ask myself how much more we could give them, particularly in view of the massive investment they make. We all witness that. The Minister would have visited some of the schemes across the country, particularly those in rural areas. While everything the schemes get is really welcome, the one thing we all hear is that they could do an awful lot more if they had more. The invaluable work they do cannot be bought. For the participants, the schemes do incredibly brilliant rural and social development, from visits to the elderly to maintaining parks to all the stuff that goes on right across rural Ireland. In east Galway where I am from, there was a cut to the funding allocated to the LEADER company there last yar. Does the Minister anticipate that this sector can be financed further, particularly in view of the work it does?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Department deals with CE, the RSS and Tús. This year, there will be an increase in the weekly rate paid to CE participants. It is the first increase for quite some time. We introduced a €1,000 bonus on materials to our EC scheme, which is currently open for applications from participants. I have expanded the RSS this year and introduced the rural dweller pilot. The Deputy knows better than most that the RSS has been traditionally confined to people with herd numbers. This year, for the first time, it has been expanded with the rural dweller pilot. We have 250 places on a pilot. For the sake of the pilot we divided them out to every local development company. I think it is seven per company. As of the end of January, 39 people had signed up for that.

The RSS is now open to people who have a connection to a herd number. You do not have to be the herd number keeper; you can have a connection, be it a family member or a spouse. This is to try to give more people the opportunity to partake in the RSS. That was not there previously. I absolutely agree with the Deputy. I do not know if he was here yesterday, but we had a really good meeting with the Chairman and with the Vice Chair, Senator Rabbitte, in relation to feedback from meetings this committee has held. I intend to pursue that more. The schemes - CE in particular and the RSS and Tús - were initially employment activation schemes. However, I see them as much broader schemes than that. I thank the Chair for the really good engagement yesterday around where we go with it. I will be working on that through this year ahead of budget 2027.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Excellent. If I have time-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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One more.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is it one more minute or one more question?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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One more question.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Thanks for that. I will go back to Storm Éowyn and the damage that was done to some properties. Like most people in the past year, I have been dealing with cases where the roofs were swept off people's outsheds, which are domestic sheds that would not be attached to someone's house. There was some talk that the scheme which was initially available in the context of humanitarian assistance could potentially be extended to cover some of those outbuildings. I may have read or hear that wrong. For people, particularly those who are on the social welfare, who are still not able to afford to repair or replace the roofs on their outbuildings and who may be storing winter fuel in them, is there anything that they can tap into?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding Storm Éowyn, what was initially the humanitarian assistance scheme evolved and expanded over the days of that storm in response to feedback from many people, the Deputy included, as to what was happening on the ground. Insurance companies have to stand up as well in relation to physical damage such as that done to sheds. The Department is not an insurance company. At the time, I found it frustrating that we were being asked to do things that would normally be covered under insurance, and insurance companies were not standing up in this regard. We did about €15.5 million in respect of Storm Éowyn. Stage 3 of the emergency response payment looked at that. Every application in respect of any physical damage and the circumstances involved was looked at thoroughly. We put €15.5 million towards a lot of issues, so there was a very strong response on the part of Department. However, insurance companies and, perhaps, other Departments needed to stand up as well.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in this morning and giving us a briefing on the Revised Estimates. The targeted measures are very welcome this year. In this regard, I refer to the increases to weekly payments, including childcare payments. Regarding the Minister's comments on the pensions and the fact that the cost is mounting to €12 billion, which is just under 44% of the overall expenditure and which is up by almost €520 million, have we done any profiling as to where that will move to between now and 2030?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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An actuarial review, which was published in March 2023, was done. It reflected the position of the fund at the end of March 2020. The PRSI rate increases of 0.1% increase every year and then 0.15% from this year forward up to the end of 2028, when it will go to 0.2%, will generate about €3.7 billion extra for the fund that otherwise would not be there. The next actuarial review of the fund is due next year. That will give us a very accurate picture of where it is at and what state it is in, with both those increases and the various new schemes built in.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That one payment takes up 42% of the budget is quite an alarming payment.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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It is quite an alarming size in that 42% of the entire budget goes on payments-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Pensions are multifaceted. It gives the committee a sense of where we are going in terms of our ageing population. That is why auto-enrolment is so important and why I put such an emphasis on it. The current contributory State pension is around €16,000 a year. The average industrial wage is around €48,000. That is a hell of a drop for people to take. My Future Fund will now give people a cushion in the context of that drop. It is something in which we are engaged. We have an actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund next year. I have no doubt that we will be coming back to the committee with the results of that in late 2028.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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On the carer's payment and the projected changes that will be happening from 1 July, are there any projections as to what the carer's allowance will cost between now and our second full year, particularly in the context of the changes that are coming in from that date?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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They are actually contained in this year's budget in the context of the figure I gave for carer's allowance, disability allowance and illness benefit. I do not have it to hand but I will come back to the committee on it. The allowances are contained for the half year from July onward.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Does the €6.5 million include the projected increase?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. That €610 million includes that for this space.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We had a good meeting yesterday on community employment, Tusla and the RSS. Many members had a very interactive engagement with the Department and people who were involved in those schemes. Those schemes are hugely important as is trying to get more people involved in those schemes. Members mentioned youth employment. That is quite alarming, but those schemes are valuable for these people to get involved and to come back. I hope we will continue that engagement in terms of broadening those schemes to encompass more and more people. It has been quite a challenge to get people activated in the context of these schemes. There are quite a number of vacancies in some of those schemes right across the country. For my area - I come from a particularly rural constituency - the biggest challenge is people travelling to where those schemes are located. I look forward to that continued engagement and to continuing the work that has been done. I look forward to any changes that can be made in those schemes to make them more attractive to the people who need them.

We are almost at the end. There are five minutes to take a supplementary question from Deputy O'Reilly.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said he would welcome feedback in relation to the DCA. I have given this in the Dáil as well. The Minister's colleague Deputy Martin Daly said that 60% of DCA applications are overturned on appeal. That figure does not surprise me in the slightest. The Minister needs to understand that the forms are horrible. It is awful for the people who have to fill them out. They literally have to sit there and describe the negative impact on the child and the family. I completely understand why the Department needs that information. However, if the figures indicated by the Minister's colleague are anywhere near accurate, and I think they are because I am looking at similar figures - if 60% are getting overturned on appeal - then there is a problem, not with any one individual, but with the system.

The Minister needs to understand this. A woman came to my clinic the other day. She told me straight that she needs the money. I am fairly sure that she is entitled to it, but she was rejected. She said she does not have the energy or the internal resources to fill the form out again. The Minister really needs to look at this.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to take that on board. I often hear the phrase “We just don’t have the energy.” We do not want that.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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There is one issue that I want to raise. It is a difficult one that seems to have got lost between a few different Departments. I would like to get the Minister's view on it. The condition known as long Covid has left some healthcare workers without the capacity to continue at work. That has not been classed as an occupational injury and, therefore, they do not get the right to occupational benefits, occupational energy benefits or allowances. I would like to hear what the Minister's approach might be and how he would think about that in the context of budget 2027. As he may know, many of those workers had a scheme until 31 December, but they have now lost all of those payments. Because this condition is not classed as an occupational injury, as far as I understand it, they are not entitled to a social protection payment.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's colleague Deputy Quaide is doing a lot of work on this. We have to get direction on what is recognised as being occupational from the Department of Health. I will engage with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, around that. The matter was raised with the Taoiseach yesterday by Deputy Quaide. Our guidance on this is from the Department of Health initially. We will engage with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, and revert to the Chair.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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As we have completed our consideration of the Revised Estimate, the clerk will send a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil in accordance with Standing Order 110. Under Standing Order 110, the message is deemed to be the report of the committee. I thank the Minister and his officials for their contributions today and for supplying the committee with briefing material in advance.