John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning, we will engage with the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to examine the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022 - Chapter 9, assessing cyber security in the public sector; and the Report on the Accounts and of the Public Services 2024 - Chapter 9, the criminal justice operational hub, and Chapter 10, management of international protection accommodation contracts.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General; Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, deputy secretary general; Mr. Conor Rowley, assistant secretary general; Mr. Richard Dixon, director; Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary general; Ms Fidelma Browne, principal officer; Mr. Neil Ward, assistant secretary general; and Mr. Richard Browne, director. We are also joined, from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, by Ms Jenny Connors, principal officer, who is attending in a representative capacity. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee; and Ms Mairead Leyden, audit manager. The witnesses are all welcome to the meeting this morning.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present, or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Witnesses are, however, expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not propose to make an opening statement today. All of these items have previously been presented to the committee.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I call the Secretary General to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. As set out in the letter of invitation, Ms McPhillips has five minutes to make her opening statement.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Chair for the invitation to assist the committee this morning. In the interests of the committee's time, I do not propose to repeat what I said in October on the 2024 accounts. It was circulated to members for their information at the time and I have sent it again this week.

Since we last met, the committee has corresponded with me and I hope the responses provided have been of assistance. I am happy to go into further details on these or other matters, as members require.

In its invitation, the committee highlighted the funding of Ukraine accommodation and related costs as an area it wished to discuss so I will concentrate on that in this brief opening statement.

As the committee will be aware, between 2022 and 2024, 114,000 people arrived in Ireland seeking temporary protection, having fled the war in Ukraine. Arrivals subsequently continued at a much reduced level so that we have, overall, received more than 126,000 people from Ukraine to date, with an estimated 80,000 remaining in the State. This precipitated the largest humanitarian response in the history of the State, with a remarkable response seen from Government, State agencies and civil society, and from local communities and organisations right across the country. I am proud of the work done by colleagues across all the public service in that regard.

The war in Ukraine, as well as the concurrent increase in applications for international protection and an ongoing housing crisis, all placed exceptional demands on the State's protection and accommodation systems and required a major operational scale-up. This meant that emergency sourcing of a wide range of accommodation options was essential. The then Accounting Officer previously informed this committee that the emergency accommodation sourced to support people from Ukraine in 2022 included hotels, bed and breakfast accommodation, guest houses, hostels, self-catering accommodation, repurposed and refurbished buildings, sports centres and arenas, scouting facilities, properties offered by religious and voluntary bodies, student accommodation, military facilities, temporary tented facilities and local authority emergency rest centres, as well as accommodation pledged in people's homes or available housing.

At peak, the Ukraine response was providing State accommodation directly for over 60,000 people, and supporting additional numbers through the accommodation recognition payment, ARP, scheme. Since it commenced in 2022, the ARP scheme has supported the accommodation of some 63,000 people outside of State-contracted accommodation. In 2024, approximately €141.5 million was issued to some 15,000 hosts accommodating 34,500 beneficiaries.

Approximately 42,000 people are currently living in almost 23,500 hosted arrangements with the support of the scheme. The ARP scheme is currently in place until 31 March 2026 but may be extended by ministerial order in accordance with the governing legislation.

Since 2024, that emergency has receded and the scaling-up has become a gradual decline, as things began to change for the Ukrainian people here, and in the wider circumstances of the war. Many people who were in State-supported accommodation, all of whom have access to the labour market, began to source their own accommodation independently. Some people chose to return to Ukraine, or to move to other countries, often reuniting with family or friends. The trend since 2024 up to the current time is one of gradual reduction in demand and, therefore, in the cost to the State.

In 2024, an allocation of €1.429 billion was provided for Ukraine accommodation which was then in Vote 40, the former Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. This allocation was reduced to €1.226 billion in the Supplementary Estimate that year. By the end of the year, the ultimate outturn for 2024 was further reduced to €1.165 billion, an overall reduction of €264 million on the original allocation.

The savings in this area were primarily attributable, as I have outlined, to reduced demand for commercial accommodation, which enabled a consolidation of the commercial accommodation portfolio. This included proactive measures, such as contract terminations, and rate and vacancy reductions, which continue to deliver cost savings.

A total of €738 million in funding transferred into the Justice Vote on 1 May 2025 and since then the costs have further reduced, bringing the allocation to €727 million in the Supplementary Estimate. The provisional outturn for 2025 was €719 million, and a provision of €607 million has been made available in respect of Ukraine accommodation for this year.

This still represents a very considerable cost in terms of public money, though reducing, as I have outlined. The committee will be aware that, combined with the over 33,000 residents currently supported by IPAS, and ongoing housing shortages across society, there remains great pressure on accommodation services in the State at this time.

The Ukraine and international protection accommodation teams have worked in parallel through these very intense times, and have delivered safety and shelter for many tens of thousands of people in urgent need. As the pressure began to reduce on both teams since 2024, good progress has been made on improving governance and achieving better value for money for the State.

While temporary protection remains in place across the EU until 2027, my Department is advancing measures, as outlined in the EU Council recommendation, for a co-ordinated and phased transition out of temporary protection. This is being progressed across government and in close liaison with other member states, with the aim of supporting Ukraine and those who have fled the war there. I am happy to go into further detail as members require.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips for that. Please note that we will suspend the meeting at 12 noon for ten to 15 minutes for a short break. We will resume shortly thereafter. I will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Neville, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits at the end, we will allow members back in for a short supplementary round of questions at that point.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today, especially so soon after their previous appearance. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy, alluded to that when he said he did not have an opening statement because the witnesses had been before the committee previously. This follow-up meeting to our previous meeting is due to the scale of spending in the Department. As a country, and as a group of individuals here, we are trying to get our heads around the spend because it is so unusual in the context of the characteristics of how the State is run and spends money. In the previous meeting, much of the conversation was about IPAS spending. We said we would focus on the Ukrainian spend today. We will cover all areas because money has not been spent in this way before. The figures McPhillips mentioned are huge, so we might go through some of those big numbers from the last number of years. While we will look towards 2025 and 2026 spending, we are obviously focusing on the financial statements from 2024.

The system has been put in place and a lot of people have benefited financially from it. The Department has looked after a lot of people too, and I am very conscious of the people the State has looked. At the same time, a lot of individuals have made significant money and become significantly wealthy from this. That is why there is significant interest in how the State is spending its money. The industry around IPAS and Ukrainian housing has grown at astonishing rates as well. That is why we are focusing on it.

I wish to clarify the numbers. Sometimes, there is a question about the Ukraine spend and the spend on IPAS. The Department differentiates between them but people sometimes work on the assumption that there is one number for both areas. Can the Department clarify the Ukrainian versus IPAS spend in 2024?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In 2024, the IPAS total spend was €1.06 billion. The Ukraine spend in 2024 was €1.164 billion. Between the two, it was €2.2 billion.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does that €2.2 billion all go to third-party contractors?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No. I mean-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is all right. I just wanted clarity. Ms McPhillips can tell me. I am just asking the question.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sure.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If it is not all going to third parties, how much of it is?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will deal with the Ukraine and IPAS figures separately, if that is okay, because that is the way it is accounted for.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is perfect. That is the best way to do it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In relation to Ukraine, the commercial accommodation split of that is €861 million, which is 74%, in 2024-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When Ms McPhillips describes-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry, I would like to complete it because there is another big chunk. The accommodation recognition payment, ARP, is €146 million. It supports people hosting people in their homes. That is about 12.5%.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Of the €1.164 billion spend in 2024, Ms McPhillips is saying that €800 million was for accommodation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, €800 million was for commercial accommodation.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, commercial accommodation. The rest was payments to individuals who are-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is payments to people who are hosting people in their homes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but they are all-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry, that is not the rest of it; it is another 12%. We also have payments to local authorities, totalling €40.5 million, facility management costs, Ukraine support costs, Citywest and support services, as well as a capital spend. In total, the spend is €1.164 billion, of which €861 million is commercial.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, I said third party rather than commercial. It is all third-party spend, whether individual or commercial. It is people who are not the State, as such.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That figure of €861 million is, yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is commercial.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

My point is that it is not all commercial.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I know. I just said third party. It is individuals as well. It could encompass someone sitting in this room who might rent out accommodation and have someone in their house. It is just accommodation. That is the point. We are spending €2.24 billion.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In 2024.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What was the spend in 2025?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I might ask Mr. Rowley to come in because I am sure he is much more fluid on this than I am.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

In 2025, the commercial accommodation spend had reduced to €452.380 million from €861 million, as the Secretary General said. The pledge, which is the accommodation recognition payment, increased to €186.401 million. We had an increase in the number of applications for the accommodation recognition payment.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In 2025, there more ordinary individuals looking to house people from Ukraine in 2025 than there were in 2024.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why is that increasing if the other number is going down?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

We are actively trying to move people to ARP accommodation. It is far more efficient and effective from an integration point of view, and it is far cheaper. ARP accommodation per night is €11 compared to €50 per night for commercial accommodation.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Jesus. It is four and a half times the price. What accounts for that difference?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There is a good will payment paid to ARP hosts, which is €600. It has been reduced from €800. That is where people are housed in rooms in houses. Commercial accommodation is, by its nature, far more expensive in terms of hotel settings, etc.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will that top out at about €750 million or €800 million in total between the two?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

No. The spends are €452 million and €186 million. I am trying to do quick maths on that.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When the local authority cost is added, it is about €700 million.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes. That is coming down in our forecast for 2026 as well. The trajectory of accommodation in commercial settings can be seen to be decreasing substantially.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What are the figures for IPAS in 2025?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

I will defer to Mr. Delaney in that regard.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am open to correction but the spend on the ARP is €191 million for 2025.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

That is correct. There is a decrease in the commercial accommodation but an increase in the ARP.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There has been no net growth since December. There are far more people accommodated under the accommodation recognition payment scheme and there is better value for money in terms of what we are paying.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The ARP is four and a half times cheaper.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The other consideration, as the Deputy will recall, is that the use of commercial accommodation was blocking a lot of tourism infrastructure, such as hotels, bed and breakfasts accommodation and so forth. There was a policy move away from that. The proportions have changed quite substantially.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What was the largest amount of money given to any individual? I know we looked at that before with the IPAS spend where the highest amount received was up to €50 million. Is it similar with the Ukraine money? Were there people-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There are companies that have been paid quite a lot of money. Does Mr. Rowley have that number handy?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

I do not have it to hand but there are not just individual providers but groups that have accommodation and hotels within their group that were paid a significant amount in the past.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I ask for a list of those. We saw a list showing that six or seven providers accounted for €250 million of the IPAS spend. I am just curious to see that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In the Ukraine spend, the highest payment is €30.7 million. That is at December 2025. The next ones are €12.4 million, €10.4, million, €9.1 million and €7.6 million. They are slightly smaller than the IPAS equivalent. Obviously, it is a different service that is being contracted.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What was the IPAS spending in 2025?

Mr. David Delaney:

The figures to hand are that we spent €1.22 billion on current expenditure and about €150 million on capital expenditure in 2025.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is pretty similar. I assume the capital expenditure relates to Citywest.

Mr. David Delaney:

Predominately, yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where do we see that trending for this year?

Mr. David Delaney:

I can confirm that our profile for 2026 is €1.18 billion. It is slightly lower. We are currently trending in that direction.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is sitting above the €1 billion mark.

Mr. David Delaney:

It is, of course.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When it comes to the changes in immigration, the point of the new immigration Bill is to reduce waiting times for applications.

Should we see that pulling people out of the system and allowing them to go through more quickly? What is the waiting time for a decision to be made on someone going through?

Mr. David Delaney:

There are probably two ways of analysing that. There is the length of time someone has been in international protection accommodation and, separately, there might be statistics around how long someone has been waiting for a first-instance decision, an appeal or a final decision. The figure I have to hand is that the typical time someone is in IPAS accommodation at the moment is about 24 months, but I am open to correction on that. The Deputy made the point about processing being quicker if people’s time in accommodation was less. That would have a knock-on effect of reducing costs but we would have to see that work through the system.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do we have an idea of the monthly cost per individual?

Mr. David Delaney:

The average contracted rate is €71 per person per night with the third party and commercial contractors we have at the moment.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It might be helpful to give the numbers that were in accommodation at the end of December 2024 and the end of December 2025. There were more people in accommodation at the end of December 2025. We contracted those buildings earlier, so they are at a more expensive rate. The costs are coming down over the course of-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many people were in accommodation as at 31 December 2025?

Mr. David Delaney:

Just over 33,000.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many were there in 2024?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was 32,700.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where do we think it will be at the end of 2026?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do not have a crystal ball at the moment but it will be in or around that. We are trying to drive it down. Obviously, the speeding-up in processing that Mr. Delaney has referenced is contributing to that. Costs are coming down as well, though, which is a different thing. As Mr. Delaney mentioned, there are different ways of looking at this and the overall cost will come down in the cost of 2026 as we move out of those more expensive historical contracts into better value contracts.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to change tack. There was a Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, case management system and €2.1 million was spent on that. I believe the contract with the delivery partner was terminated in August 2025. What is the situation with that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They are regrouping on that. I might ask Mr. Ward to come in on that if that is okay.

Mr. Neil Ward:

The first business case for this project came in in May 2022. Subject to some tweaks, it was approved in August 2022. There was then a significant enough period of procurement and the contract was eventually awarded in February 2024 to a company called Codec.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We have heard of that company here before.

Mr. Neil Ward:

That is the key delivery partner, yes. It was procured as the delivery partner. There were also other providers doing business analysis and project management work.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do we have a system from the €2.1 million spent?

Mr. Neil Ward:

The system is not yet built, but of that €2.1 million, our assessment is that about three quarters of the spend to date remains of value and will contribute to the completion of the system ultimately. Where it stands at the moment is that Fiosrú is considering options as to how to replace Codec-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of my time. Is Codec gone now?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Codec was in place and €2.1 million was spent-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

But not all to Codec. That is an important point.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay, fine. Was it overseeing the project?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It was the delivery partner.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ward just mentioned its name. I did not even ask about who it was, so I thought it might have been running it.

Mr. Neil Ward:

The amount it received was €525,000.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Department expects, therefore, that there will be a write-off of that €525,000. The project was costed initially at €4.4 million. Where do we think it is now?

Mr. Neil Ward:

I expect that when Fiosrú figures out a way back to market to identify a new provider, it will eventually require a change request to alter that budget, but that depends on what the market produces.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We do not know; it could be anything. We have written off €500,000 and the final budget might end up being a lot higher.

I am looking at a few other items. In respect of Forensic Science Ireland's application for DNA sample handling, there was an approved budget of €760,000. The final project cost was €2.7 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was €2 million over.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It became a different project, I suppose.

Mr. Neil Ward:

One hundred percent. At the very outset, that was a project designed to replace an Excel sheet with very complex macros built into it, which was unstable and a risk-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I get it. I am just trying to see if there is a trend, that is all. Because there was also the establishment of the independent Gambling Regulatory Authority, where there was an approved budget of €1.2 million and a final project cost of €2.6 million.

Mr. Neil Ward:

That was a project overseen by our portfolio oversight committee but not an IT project. The costs actually relate to the staffing costs of establishing the new regulator.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was time spent.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It was time.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Was the capitalised cost there?

Mr. Neil Ward:

The legislation took longer to come through than anticipated, so the staff were actually on site for longer than we had anticipated at the start.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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For the organisation dashboard, there was an approved budget of €1.6 million and a final project cost of €2.3 million. That was a €700,000 overrun.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Again, that was a scope change during the project. A change request was raised. It went through all of our government structures. The scope change was approved and with that there was a resulting increase in cost.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Overall, there was about €4 or €5 million of overruns on those and I have only named four projects. I am not saying there are more but there possibly could be.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think those are the only ones for which the Deputy will find significant overruns, because we reported on those. The way in which it was managed needs to be understood in terms of the governance. There was very tight governance on it. Those were requests that were acceded to rather than let overrun, if that makes sense.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Every change request made in relation to a project is treated as if it were a stand-alone business case. It is subject to examination by both the technical and financial review group we have in the Department and an oversight committee, which is a subcommittee of our management board and includes external members. People are required to really document in serious terms any proposed change to the scope, time or budget of a project. It is really rigorously analysed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

And lots of them are refused.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No, I get that. This is not a question but, lastly, at the previous meeting, Ryevale House came up quite a bit. The Department has made changes since then and I want to acknowledge that.

I saw the announcement about Ms McPhillips in the news. I offer her my best wishes for her future role. I thank her for coming in twice over the past while.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No problem.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I just wanted to acknowledge those things.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone here today. Is there an update on the domestic violence refuge centres in Cavan and Monaghan. Has anything happened in relation to the opening of either of those yet?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I should apologise because I misspoke on the last day. I mixed up my refuges with my safe homes. There is, as the Deputy knows, a project in Monaghan to build a refuge, which is ongoing. There are safe home projects in both counties but not a refuge in Cavan at the moment. They are still looking for that. Apologies for that.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Again, Cavan and Monaghan are two of nine counties in the whole of Ireland that have no refuges.

The Minister told me one day in the Chamber that the first person to leave the home should be the perpetrator and this is not often the case. Will Ms McPhillips outline what the Department is doing about that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Quite a bit of policy work is going on around that. Obviously, it should not be the case that the person who suffers the violence has to leave the home. We try to support people to stay in their homes but there are legal and constitutional issues around ownership of the home and so forth, so there is quite a bit of policy work going on-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is it?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----as part of one of the actions under the domestic violence-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the action?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The action is to examine how best to support people to stay in their homes and how we can reverse the trend.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I was looking at the books. There was an underspend of €2.1 million, or more than 56%, on Cuan arising from delays in onboarding staff. What would have caused those delays? If we are working so hard to ensure women are not being left in the home with perpetrators, why has €2.1 million not been used?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was 2024. Cuan was established at the beginning of 2024. It started the year with 17 staff and now it has 35 staff. We have funded it for another ten staff to grow further in the course of this year, 2026. The year 2024 was very much the start-up year. We took in staff from the existing functions and we were building it up over the course of the year but there was a great deal of priority attached to it and very enthusiastic people working there as well.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips for that but she can understand my frustration that we have nothing in Cavan and Monaghan.

Every time I ask anybody, they say we are building towards it and that we are going to get a domestic violence refuge. This has been going since since I was on Monaghan County Council in 2012 and there is still no domestic abuse refuge or safe homes, as Ms McPhillips said.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

But there is a site for the refuge in Monaghan and there is work ongoing on that at the moment, so there is progress.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What timeline is there on that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will come back to the Deputy on a timeline.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips very much. I appreciate that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Garda in Cavan-Monaghan supports victims very well and does a lot of work. Safe Ireland is involved up there as well and it does a huge amount of work to support victims. I take the Deputy's point, though.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I thank Ms McPhillips.

I will move on. I commend all the people who have opened up their homes to the Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary international protection following Russia's brutal and criminal invasion of Ukraine. The manner, however, in which the ARP scheme has operated has been a source of criticism and frustration. Noting that the Government at different points has increased and decreased the payment rate, will Ms McPhillips outline what the initial payment was benchmarked against and why there were adjustments following that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not sure I can because the scheme was in the other Department in 2022 when it was established, so I am just not familiar with-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was it €800 at one time and then it went down to €600?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It started at €400 and it went to €800, and then a decision was taken to reduce it to €600 in June 2025.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms McPhillips know what the reason was for that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The reason was to try to get better value for the State.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why did it jump from €400 to €800?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There was also a perception that it was interfering with the private rental market. Conor might want to take that one. He might be familiar with the reason for the change in 2025.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

I think it relates to the offer a home scheme. That was a local authority-based scheme where people offered a whole home to people who had fled the war in Ukraine. It was felt that €800 was a suitable price for that. As a result, the ARP was increased in line with it, to cover that.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who made the decision or why was the decision made that it should be tax-free?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It was a Government decision at the time. It was a policy decision. I will just bring the Deputy through the history of it, if that is any help, because it has, as she says, varied quite a lot. In 2022, €10 million was paid out in respect of 4,000 hosts, which accommodated 8,000 people at that time. To contrast that with 2025, we paid out €187 million to accommodate 42,000 people, with 17,500 hosts involved in it.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What about the year in which the Department was paying €800? Which year was that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We were paying €800 for half of 2025. In 2023, the total cost was €71 million. There were 9,000 hosts and 20,000 people. In 2024, the cost was €141 million, with 15,000 hosts and 34,500 people. The scheme has been very successful in accommodating people because it has, as I was explaining to Deputy Neville-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It has been successful for the landlords that were incentivised, as they did not have to pay any tax.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

From the beginning of the Ukraine war, an awful lot of people have accommodated Ukrainians in their homes, and this-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was it not taxed? Why did the landlords not have to pay any tax?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was a policy decision by the Government at the time. I cannot say anything further than that.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On what basis was the payment paid out without the Ukrainian people who were moving into the houses being means-tested?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

This payment is made to hosts rather than Ukrainian people. It is made in respect of them hosting Ukrainian people in their houses.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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After a year or two years, did the Department ever look back at or review Ukrainian people who are now working here?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

This money is not paid to Ukrainian people. It is paid to the people who are hosting them.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In that case, we will go back to the landlords that are getting the money. Was a review of the tenants they had in their houses ever done?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They have to produce evidence that they are hosting the person. Conor might confirm if that is fair.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

It is. It is important to say-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has a review been done over the four or five years? I have heard that there are people from Ukraine who have very good salaries, who are working here as doctors and nurses, and their landlord is still getting the ARP, but no means test has been done on it and they automatically get their rent paid.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

First, there is no means test. It is not necessarily rent. It is a goodwill payment to the host for opening up their accommodation. There is no tenancy agreement in place. It is a goodwill payment paid to people.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are top-up payments made to landlords as well?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Not that we are aware of, and not that we would recommend. There is a licensing agreement perhaps between the host and the person staying with them in the property. They may give additional money for miscellaneous things like washing.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to go back to the review. If somebody who has come here from Ukraine is working in a really good job, are they still getting their rent paid?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They are not getting the payment.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They are not getting the payment but their rent is still being paid. They have no rent payment.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not rent, as Conor was saying.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know it is an ARP. When somebody comes here and they start work, are they being reviewed or means-tested in any way or are they just getting the rent payment?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The way I would look at it, as Conor said to Deputy Neville, is that the cost to the State is €11 a night, compared with €50 a night in commercial accommodation. That is where the value to the State lies. It is accommodating 42,000 people at the moment.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Were any new contracts signed after 2024?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I might ask Conor to take that. The contracts have been reducing.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Not since mid-2024. The only contracts we have entered into are that we have recontracted a number of 90-day designated accommodation centres, which are now 30-day accommodation centres.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have a list of them?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes, we do have a list of them.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could I have that at some stage, if not today?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes, absolutely. I could read them out to the Deputy now if she wants.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that would be great.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

We have ones in Punchestown, Firmbank, Wallslough in Kilkenny, Inchmore in Offaly, and Kill and Newhall, both in Kildare. What happened there was that we had a significant increase in people fleeing the war in Ukraine, attributable to a law that was relaxed in Ukraine, which allowed men between the ages of 18 and 22 to travel. As a result, from August to October, we saw about 2,000 young people coming into the country, so we had to stand up those designated accommodation centres to cater for them.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Conor and everyone.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for being with us again so soon after the last time. We usually say the nice things at the end but I will say them at the beginning. I acknowledge what Deputy Neville said about Ms McPhillips's departure. In her time before the committee, she has always given us a very good engagement. If she is lucky enough in her next role, she might be before us again in some other guise - or unlucky enough.

If he does not mind, I will refer back to Mr. Delaney. In October, we discussed the OECD report in regard to the Development Assistance Committee's cost-per-refugee figure. I am interested in how we compare with other OECD countries. At that stage we were the second highest - I think it was the 2022 figure - per head at just under €20,000 and the UK was at about €25,000 per head. Does he have any indication of where the figures for Ireland might be now? Has the Department given any consideration to that data and to why we are such an outlier in the sense that the cost per head seems to be so much higher?

Mr. David Delaney:

That is a very good question. I had a quick glance at the report again in advance of this meeting. If we look at the report, there are some countries that I know for a fact are accommodating asylum seekers but their cost per asylum seeker is zero. To be honest, I could not even point to where the ballpark Irish figures mentioned for 2022 and 2023 came from. Equally so, when I look at countries that I have visited and where I have spoken to colleagues at my level, the money they are spending and the number of people they are accommodating does not line up with the report. I would have doubts about making assumptions-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I think it indicates there were at least seven countries that had not reported.

Mr. David Delaney:

And some had reported very low costs that did not remotely add up. I must admit I have looked into it a bit further to try to find reasons, but I have not been able to find reasons. Some appear, but I would not want to use assumptions.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The question is whether the Department has examined that question. There are a lot of questions around the way we have contracted, the way it had to be done in such a speedy manner, the whole idea of not having the normal procurement compliance and so on. Has the Department examined where it is in terms of other-----

Mr. David Delaney:

The lesson learnt from that work is that countries that run their systems well and cost-effectively have predominantly State-owned accommodation. We are definitely moving in that direction. We have gone from 900 applicants living in State accommodation to now having nearly 4,000 State accommodation beds. We intend to continue that comprehensive accommodation strategy policy. That is the right thing to do from an Irish perspective, and I think it reflects lessons learnt from-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On the previous occasion, the Department indicated that for the State accommodation we have, the price was nearly half that charged by the private contractors.

Mr. David Delaney:

In addition, we are also in the process of continuing the implementation of our rate card, so we have seen a reduction of 26% in renewed and renegotiated contracts.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When do we believe we will no longer be reliant on private contractors and moving towards a State system?

Mr. David Delaney:

Unfortunately, that is definitely a medium- to long-term crystal ball. I would not be able to put a timeline on that. There are too many variables at play to be able to point to that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Given the significant cost, it should be a priority for the Department to be moving-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The overall objective is 14,000 State-owned places by 2028. We are working towards that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the current capacity?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is 4,000 in State-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the current total capacity of public and private?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is 33,000.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Even the 2028 objective is less than half.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The objective is also to process people faster, especially under the forthcoming pact.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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My question is how it is not more of an objective to try to reduce the costs. Everyone is saying that a State facility is cheaper and represents better value for money for the taxpayer, but we do not seem to have an objective to reach that, even by 2028.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not think we would want to be accommodating 33,000-plus people going forward. That is not the policy objective. The policy objective is to reduce the number in accommodation and to get them-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The belief is that the 14,000 would be sufficient.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We will always probably need some flex, and the private sector is best placed to do that. We do not want to have empty places lying around the place. My successor would be in here a lot if that were the case. The objective is to bring down the number in accommodation and to have the best value.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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From the Department's perspective, given that it is not relying on other countries’ information, what is the cost per head per refugee in Ireland?

Mr. David Delaney:

As I mentioned to Deputy Neville, we have that contract cost of €71 per person per night. When you factor in-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the annual cost.

Mr. David Delaney:

For the annual cost, especially with the purchase of Citywest being in that annual cost, it is a bit more difficult to determine the exact cost.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not expect the Department to have the figure here. I am using the OECD example, so it is a cost per head per year per refugee. The Department might see if it can identify what that figure is. I accept that there are a lot of variables. The Department might come back to us in writing.

Mr. David Delaney:

From that timeframe, I definitely would not have confidence in the figure in the OECD report. I do not know how many variables were included.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. Given that it was indicating that even the Irish figure is not clear, I am asking the Department to come back to us in writing on what the Irish figure is per year.

Again, I am trying to look at the idea of the cost for State accommodation. Anybody who comes out of international protection is fully entitled to apply for housing. I recently met with the DRHE in regard to some of the Dublin figures. There is increasingly an interplay between exit from international protection and those people who are in homeless accommodation. I want to touch on the interaction between the Department of justice, the Department of housing and the costs. Ultimately, they are both State services that are provided.

The indicator from the DRHE for the Dublin figures was that 36% of people in homeless accommodation were non-EEA. In 2025, the reasons given for people being made homeless indicated that, for families, 6.3% were due to leaving direct provision, and 8% were due to family reunification, so both were related to the Department of justice. However, 25% of single people made homeless in Dublin in 2024 were leaving direct provision. That is a significant number. Is that a consequence of us now processing applications more quickly? Is there structural engagement between the Department of justice and the Department of housing with regard to the number of people leaving direct provision and entering homelessness?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

If people have status and an entitlement that is derived from status, we do not exit people into homelessness. That is the bottom line. Mr. Delaney can go into more detail.

Mr. David Delaney:

I am happy to clarify that. To be clear, nobody is moved out of direct provision with status. We accommodate people. We are accommodating 5,000 people who have refugee status.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department accommodate them outside of the homeless services?

Mr. David Delaney:

We do. Just to give you a sense-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The figure from the DRHE is that 25% of single people who presented as homeless cited leaving direct provision. How does that tally with what the Department says about how people are accommodated?

Mr. David Delaney:

We work very closely with the DRHE and Department of housing colleagues, so I can give the Deputy confidence on that. I think the statistic is that someone who had previously lived in direct provision is now presenting as homeless, as opposed to the idea that they had left direct provision and then presented as homeless.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking at the figures from the DRHE. I realise they are private figures, but this is a report that it produced itself. It says that for single adults, the top reason in 2025 was leaving direct provision. This applied to 427 individuals, which is 25%.

Mr. David Delaney:

When we have discussed that with colleagues, the slightly summarised detailed explanation is that they have left IPAS accommodation in the preceding six months. We have had a few different versions of that, such as in the preceding six months, the preceding eight months or the preceding ten months. It definitely is not the case that people walked out and walked in.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Directly.

Mr. David Delaney:

We are looking for more detail from colleagues. I would argue that while it might be a fact that they have left international protection accommodation in the preceding six or eight months, it might very well be the case that the other categories of reasons for requiring homeless accommodation may suit. It could be that they left international protection accommodation, got into a valid lease, and then, when it expired or there was a problem, found themselves homeless. There is nuance within it as well.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As I say, I am exploring this.

Mr. David Delaney:

To give a broader figure, in the past two and a half years or so, 11,000 people have left international protection accommodation with status. We are working through the percentage figures to make sure they are accurate, but it is still a very small proportion of the overall number who have managed to integrate into communities well, whether through private rented accommodation, HAP or otherwise.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

With regard to the supports, all IPAS residents with status are assigned access to a housing support officer to help them to work out their accommodation. They are not exited into homelessness.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If people are being placed and subsequently, within six or eight months, are presenting to the DRHE as homeless, there was obviously an issue with the way they were placed, given they are presenting so quickly.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think most of the population finds some of the accommodation very precarious at times, or their employment status might be different, or whatever. People's circumstances change.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is significant that 25% of single people presenting as homeless in the past year cited leaving direct provision. There may be a nuance in that, but my point is that it is significant. I do not have time to explore it. The reason I raise this matter is that there is a cost to providing direct provision and a cost to providing emergency accommodation. We should be looking at those two costs while also acknowledging the rights of people who are fully entitled to housing.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We are trying to look at stability as well. Moving more people into more mainstream, stable accommodation is in our interest because we have people in direct provision, as Mr. Delaney said, who have an entitlement to move out and are trying to move out. It would present better value for us if they were able to move into more stable accommodation. That is an objective for us, absolutely.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. Inevitably, there will be some repetition in the questioning. My apologies for that.

On the accommodation that is provided, we have approximately 80,000 at present. That seems to have been the case for some time. Is that a relatively static figure at this point in time?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not sure that it is the same 80,000 but the number is roughly the same.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The number is quite static, yes. Please explain. Are we seeing new presentations from Ukraine?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. Through the course of 2025 we would have seen that and Mr. Rowley will give the numbers.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Close to 6,000 people came in from Ukraine in 2025. Obviously some people leave and go home to Ukraine or go to another member state.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If 6,000 Ukrainians came it, did approximately the same number leave? I ask because 80,000 seems to have been the figure for some time now.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

To clarify, there are 84,000 people here right now.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Please clarify the following again. How much of the accommodation is directly provided by the State?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Roughly 23,000 people are in State-contracted accommodation. I have the numbers.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that 23,000 out of 84,000?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is 23,000 people.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Then 40,000 people are in ARP-supported accommodation, give or take. Mr. Rowley can correct me if I am wrong, by all means.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

As part of that, 2,500 people are housed in rapid-build housing developments across eight different sites.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of the 23,000 people in State accommodation, how many centres are we talking about?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

We currently have 560 contracts. That is a good estimation of where we are at. We have reduced that by 50%. We were at over 1,000.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To give us the sense of scale, who or what is the biggest provider of accommodation?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

We have one hotel in Dublin that has 1,300 people from Ukraine housed there.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has that been the case for a number of years?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the biggest provider?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

That is the biggest. We have had other big ones in places such as Youghal, down in the Deputy's neck of the woods, where we had a significant amount of people there. Obviously we were moving people out as well and relocating.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the hotel with 1,300 people, what is the annual cost provided to that entity?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

That is about €24 million.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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One provider has received €24 million for providing accommodation to Ukrainians.

My next issue is international protection. We have seen the trend whereby in 2024 it cost €1.76 billion and in 2025 it cost €1.2 billion. As it is early days the Department does not know the figure for 2026 but what is the provision or budget allocation?

Mr. David Delaney:

In terms of current expenditure, €1.18 billion has been provided for in 2026 and a further €40 million for capital expenditure.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is a relatively stable outlay expected this year?

Mr. David Delaney:

An ever so slight drop in stabilisation, Deputy.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In response to a parliamentary question, the Minister outlined that there were over 300 centres involved in international protection.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is right.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McPhillips answered my question earlier but again, how much of the accommodation is directly provided by the State versus private provided? Can she clarify the breakdown please?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is roughly 4,000 people in State-provided accommodation and the remainder-----

Mr. Neil Ward:

It is 29,000.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----29,000 people are in contracted accommodation.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Who is the biggest provider of accommodation in respect of international protection? What is the name of the entity and what is the scale?

Mr. David Delaney:

Looking at the list of top providers, Deputy, there are a few around the €25 million mark such as the Holiday Inn, around €25 million; Mosney Holidays €25 million; and Guestford Limited, around €25 million.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any concern about how much one provider can get and would alarm bells ring?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is important to note that it is not all profit. They provide a service for that.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Let us consider one of them. Mosney has been a very stable provider for more than 25 years. It has provided an awful lot of accommodation and services for a lot of people.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it appropriate for one provider to grow in terms of the services they provide?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The test is whether the service is adequate and these are inspected services.

Mr. David Delaney:

One of the findings from the Comptroller and Auditor General's chapter was that if we could contract and maintain services with companies that are experienced in this space and know how to do the business then we can have trust. We had over 400 inspections last year so there is a robust inspection regime. It is about quality of service provision foremost and then having confidence in the work that is being done. Having people in this business is not a bad thing, Deputy.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, in some parliamentary replies, the Minister has indicated that the average processing time for international protection is around 24 months.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I understand it, we have signed up to the EU agreements and in June of this year that is to be reduced significantly to six months. Is that correct?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, and we have been trialling those arrangements since last July with some success. Obviously we have been trialling them with small numbers but we have achieved the targets set out in the new legislation, on that trial basis.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is on a trial basis and obviously only a percentage of applicants.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How realistic is it to go from an average of 24 months down to six months by June of this year?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have been doing a lot of preparation for that and Mr. O'Sullivan will outline our preparation.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

There is a couple of different stands in that pack. There is the border procedure, which is what people talk about the most and that is a very fast process that requires us to do end-to-end in 12 weeks. There is an accelerated procedure, which is three months for a first instance and three months for appeal. Then there is the ordinary procedure, as it is called, and that is six months. They are ambitious targets but there are different levels. We are currently achieving that for the very fast element, that is, the accelerated border procedure. We are putting resources in and investing heavily in new processes to aim to achieve those targets.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not doubting the Department's ability to respond but it seems a monumental task to go from 24 months to six months. If we have the Department officials back here in the autumn, are they confident that they will have achieved a six-month turnaround time for international protection applicants?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Clearly, one of the other important bearings on that is how many new applications are coming in.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us say we have similar numbers.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

If there are similar numbers, then we aim to achieve those targets, particularly for the accelerated priority. The priority is the cases, which have a very low ground rate that we want to process very quickly.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What percentage of the overall will be the accelerated category?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

At the moment we are doing about 15% of all cases through that.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. O'Sullivan saying we may not achieve the six months target for the remaining 85%?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

No, I am not saying that, Deputy. We are saying that the priority is to get the accelerated cases because that is where the sharpest timelines are and we are working very hard towards that. Clearly, we are going to do everything we can to achieve those targets and are putting significant resources into it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is a range of measures being taken and resources being put in place both from an IT and a human point of view. We have a team in Citywest who are doing a lot of work on this.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

There is a substantial team devoted to that, yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a really big project.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, the answers focus heavily on the accelerated side of things but that is only 15% of applicants. I am still not convinced that we will get anywhere near the six months target by June of this year in terms of the overall quantum of applications. Please convince me otherwise.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not want to overstate the intent obviously. I would say it will be bumpy. We have anticipated that it will be bumpy. I was in Brussels last month where we talked to the Commission about this and other member states are in the same kind of territory. A lot of people are doing an awful lot of work to prepare for it and the intentions is absolutely to achieve the target.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It begs the question that if we can go from 24 months to six months then why did we not significantly reduce the turnaround up to now?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In the last few years there has been a huge amount of investment in acceleration, processing, IT and all of that. Mr. Dixon leads this piece of work. The amount of acceleration in turnaround times has been very considerable.

Mr. Richard Dixon:

The critical aspect of this is that we are dealing with a significant backlog at the moment. When somebody comes in, he or she must wait for his or her interview, and next must wait for that to be considered and for the case to be written up. Under the pact timelines, on 12 June the numbers in the pact operation reset to zero. The people who come in on the first day will be managed that first day.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand.

Mr. Richard Dixon:

So there is not a queue of people ahead of them. That is what gives us confidence that we will be able to hit the targets.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Mr. Dixon is right but I have concerns. On the budget, and I asked earlier about it being a similar amount to 2025. If the Department significantly reduces the processing time, surely that will reduce the budget but the Department's budget is similar to 2024 and it does not add up.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Some of that is because we have these contracts in place for a couple of years. As we move through those,the cost of that will reduce. Is that fair of me to say, Mr. Delaney?

Mr. David Delaney:

I think so. I wish to make one further point on that concerns the six-month target. The pact will implement in June 2026. If the six-month timeline is going to kick in, it is still the end of the year so we will still need to accommodate similar levels for the total of 2026 and, hopefully, when the pact implementation works-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Delaney saying the financial benefits will be from 2027 onwards?

Mr. David Delaney:

Obviously, it is based on variables outside our control, such as the numbers that could be coming into the State in the middle of that as well, but we think the logical progression will be that in six months, at the end of the second half of this year, people will hopefully be processed faster, but they will similarly be accommodated for that spell. Benefits will hopefully accrue in subsequent years.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We got some reassurance from the Commission as well. It is quite happy with the progress we are making and the plans we have in place, so hopefully it will go well.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I am going to begin by being a bit parochial. I represent north County Dublin and Dublin Fingal West. We have had a really chronic lack of women's refuges in north County Dublin. Fingal is the third most populated county in the country. Balbriggan is the youngest large town. It is also the most culturally diverse town. Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush, Lusk and other towns are expanding rapidly. There are plans to deliver a women's refuge in north County Dublin. Can the witnesses give me an update as to the status of that, please?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will have to get back to the Deputy after the break on the north County Dublin aspect if that is okay.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate that. It is nearly there, and it is very much needed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I appreciate that.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The Department very helpfully wrote to the committee and provided a table in relation to ICT projects. I want to go through a few of them. One that is mentioned is the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, now Fiosrú, case management system. The original approved budget was €4.395 million. The spend to the end of 2025 was over €2 million. The original table the Department provided states that this contract was terminated in late 2024. The updated table states that it was terminated in August 2025. The witnesses might give me an understanding of what this project involves. Was there are complete waste of €2 million?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. Ward to come in on that.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Maybe I will walk through the timeline first if that is helpful.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Briefly, if Mr. Ward does not mind.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Of course. As I mentioned, the original business case for this was submitted in May 2022. It should be stated that GSOC has an old case management system. It is not great. It was obviously transitioning to become Fiosrú under the new Act and wanted a new system. We thought there was value in that. We approved its final business case on 23 August 2022. As part of that, it was required to set up an external peer review group that would review every stage of the contract. It then got some external-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Ward mean external private entities?

Mr. Neil Ward:

No.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Peers.

Mr. Neil Ward:

This is a requirement for all projects over €2 million. We set up an external peer review group. It is made up of three or four individuals.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In Mr. Ward's Department.

Mr. Neil Ward:

No, from outside our Department, but who have expertise in IT projects.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Who assigns those people?

Mr. Neil Ward:

On the Fiosrú one, I would have to come back to the Deputy, but they-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is there a process for assignment? How does it work?

Mr. Neil Ward:

We look for people with expertise.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Who takes ownership? Is it the Office of Government Procurement or the chief information officer? Who decides who is on these external peer review groups?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Under the Department of public expenditure circular, it depends on the scale of the project. If the project is estimated at a value of in excess of €5 million, the digital government oversight unit in the Department of Public Expenditure Infrastructure Public Service Reform and Digitalisation takes responsibility for setting it up. If the project is estimated to have a value of over €2 million then the Department is responsible for setting it up.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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So, the Department goes and finds the external peer review group.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Our project management office finds people.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The responsibility does not shift. The responsibility stays with the agency and the Department. It is that they advise on whether things are going well or whether we are achieving best practice.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There are plenty of instances like it.

Mr. Neil Ward:

They have a number of contracts to deliver the project. There are companies doing business analysis and that sort of work.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What went wrong on this particular project?

Mr. Neil Ward:

It awarded a contract for the project delivery aspect, namely the real core of building the new system, to a company called Codec. That was awarded in February 2024. It is fair to say that it did not go well from the start.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why was that?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Codec's view was that GSOC was not really ready to support the project to the degree that it felt was necessary. It also felt that GSOC's resources were tied up in preparing for the transition to Fiosrú and that it did not have as much subject matter expertise available as Codec felt was necessary. GSOC-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why did the external peer review group not pick this up?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It did.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It did, so-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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At the outset.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It raised concerns right at the start when the contract was being awarded about GSOC's level of readiness for it. In quarter 3 of 2024, it recommended that the project not progress with Codec. In September 2024, Codec stood down its team and there was a dialogue between Codec and GSOC, or Fiosrú, for a couple of months after that. It did come forward with a revised business case suggesting a very substantial increase to the overall project budget. That was not approved. We did not approve that. Following that, GSOC terminated the contract with Codec.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has the €2 million been wasted-----

Mr. Neil Ward:

No.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----or is there anything that we can use?

Mr. Neil Ward:

I mentioned that there are a number of providers. The expenditure to the end of 2025 is €2.2 million. Of that-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is €2.2 million?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes. The figures we have provided-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The total-----

Mr. Neil Ward:

The figures we provided to the committee-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I have a figure of €2.079 million.

Mr. Neil Ward:

They were the figures to the end of September, which was what the committee had requested from us.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Mr. Neil Ward:

At the end of the year, the amount involved was €2.235 million. Of that, €525,904 was paid to Codec. That was a contractual requirement. The way the contract was-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It was just over €525,000.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes. The way the contract was structured was that there were a number of costs involved. Part of that was the implementation cost. The contract required that 20% of that cost would be paid on day one. Codec had a certain upfront payment built in to the contract. It received that, and it received nothing else after that.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How can we say that it has not been wasted? Where are we at?

Mr. Neil Ward:

Separate from Codec, there are also other companies involved in the project.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What are they doing?

Mr. Neil Ward:

They have been doing a lot of requirements gathering work and process mapping. They have been re-examining the processes that are involved, and-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is business analysis, essentially.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It is business analysis, and system design at a high level.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is since 2022. As processes change over time, would that not have to be redone if this project is reignited?

Mr. Neil Ward:

No. These teams have been on the ground since 2024. We have Ernst and Young-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The project was set up in 2022, but the work only started in-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, it was proposed in 2022.

Mr. Neil Ward:

It was proposed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The contract was awarded in February 2024-----

Mr. Neil Ward:

Correct.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----and, essentially, from September 2024, it was in the process of examining whether it could continue or not.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Ms McPhillips thinks this analysis work can still be used, and that only €500,000 was wasted.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is an interesting case study in the governance working-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is, yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----because of the governance in terms of controlling the project and making sure it did not go beyond its scope worked. The fail faster theory that we hear a lot about in the area of IT did work in this case. It was brought to a head before it could go on.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that, but the Secretary General might look at the Forensic Science Ireland, FSI, DNA application project. The original business case greatly underestimated the complexity of the project and the resources required to deliver on requirements. That is similar to what Ms McPhillips is saying with GSOC. It did not have the time, and it did not have the subject matter expertise to develop to it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is quite a different kind of project. It became a different project in the course of it - successfully, I think.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes. I would not put them in the same category at all. The FSI project has delivered very successfully. It has been ISO accredited and is very highly internationally regarded. What happened with the FSI project was that the scope of the original project-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It had nearly four times the budget.

Mr. Neil Ward:

The scope of the original project was to replace a complicated Excel - it was an Excel, however - with a better platform. It submitted change requests that were really rigorously analysed at each stage of this. What it ended up delivering was a system that is entirely integrated with the lab equipment in Forensic Science Ireland. It is something that is completely different.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why was that not anticipated at the outset?

Mr. Neil Ward:

The scope changed. When the scope changed-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that it now has good technology, but that could easily have gone the other way. We have seen it with other IT projects. If you do not know what you are contracting for, do not have an in-depth understanding of what is involved and do not have clear project timelines and deliverables, a project can spiral out of control.

Mr. Neil Ward:

We have-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have already-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is where the governance works, so-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I know, but on the governance on the other project, that is €500,000 wasted for the taxpayer.

Mr. Neil Ward:

There also was not dedicated procurement in the FSI one. We were drawing down resources for frameworks we already have in place. We were not going to the market for an FSI project. We went to the market for resources that we could use flexibly and across different projects.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It was a contractor, or external contractors.

Mr. Neil Ward:

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy's point is a good one if she is talking about a very settled, established agency or Department that has sufficient expertise to do the analysis upfront. FSI was operating in very poor conditions in a building it had been in since the 1970s. When it originally envisaged the project, it simply did not have the capacity to foresee what it would be capable of in the new laboratory. This was realised over the course of the project. The governance and the permissions granted along the way-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask about the supplier payment issues? There were ten. There were five instances of an incorrect supplier being paid and four instances of duplicate payments. There was also an incident where an invoice was overpaid. What steps have been taken to make sure this will never happen again? Can Ms McPhillips tell us we are not going to see the same mistakes repeated in 2025?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The sums have all been recouped.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Which is good, but there is no guarantee there will not be a recurrence.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have recovered the payments and we have implemented stronger internal review processes to make sure there can be no reoccurrence.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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So, we will not see it in the 2025 accounts.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has assurances.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Just to start and to get a broad overview, could the witnesses give me the numbers for the capacity in the system for Ukrainian refugees and international protection applicants, separating out ARP accommodation? Apart from the latter, what is the total capacity in the system?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. Rowley to come in on that, if that is okay.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Sure. There are 20,000 in State-contracted accommodation that also comprises the rapid builds. That excludes the ARP capacity, which is 42,000. That is where we are at with accommodation for Ukrainians at the moment.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And international protection?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Thirty-three thousand.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On top of that capacity?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That is 53,000 in total. How many people are in there currently?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There are 33,000 or so in IPAS. Sorry, but am I saying that wrong?

Mr. David Delaney:

There are 33,000 people residing in international protection accommodation at the moment and a further 2,500 available beds. We are talking about 35,600 or 35,700 in total. That would be available capacity and people residing in-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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So there are 2,500 empty beds in IPAS. How many empty beds are there in Ukrainian accommodation minus ARP accommodation, which would be very complicated to calculate?

Mr. David Delaney:

About 2,000 empty beds.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Therefore, there are approximately 4,000 empty beds in total in the system, comprising 2,500 in IPAS and 2,000 in accommodation for Ukrainians.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

While we have empty beds in IPAS, they are not usable beds. I think Mr. Delaney will agree that is fair to say. Some of the beds are in the course of refurbishment. At any given time, a percentage is out of commission. Other beds that are not usable may be spare beds in rooms. If there is a family of three in a room, there may be an additional bed, a fourth, but it cannot be utilised for another person. Is that fair to say?

Mr. David Delaney:

That is fair to say. In addition to the figures given, we have 1,100 to 1,200 people claiming international protection each month. We still have to have some sort of capacity to deal with people coming in and also a little flexibility in terms of surge capacity. To be totally frank, we would prefer to have more than 2,500 available beds at the moment. Of those, only about 250 to 280 are available for single males. In the context of capacity management and risk management, we would prefer to have a few more.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Of the 4,500 empty beds, how many are usable and how many do not fall into the category of the fourth bed in a room with a family of three? Clearly, it would be inappropriate to put someone in such a bed.

Mr. David Delaney:

Most of the 2,500 on the IP side would be usable.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Most of those are usable. Could I have a rough figure? Is it 1,500?

Mr. David Delaney:

No. Most of them. It would be closer to-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Over 2,000 usable beds in IPAS. What about the accommodation for Ukrainians?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Two thousand.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Two thousand. So, we have 4,000 usable vacant beds today. In that case, why are there over 500 men sleeping rough on the streets?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Obviously, that is a situation we are not happy with at all. We have people arriving every day and we have to do vulnerability assessments on them and retain a certain number of beds in order to be able to respond to that. Mr. Delaney might expand on that.

Mr. David Delaney:

We are dealing with humans. I do not want to minimise that factor at all. As the Secretary General pointed out, the situation is not one we are happy about. If we were to make an offer of accommodation to the 500-odd males awaiting an offer and all of them accepted, we would not be able to give them all a bed. We have only about 280 beds available for single males. Straight off, we would not be able to fulfil the need. On top of that, in a typical week a further 110 to 120 single male applicants apply for international protection. Even if we offered a bed to the 500 men awaiting an offer and 280 accepted, we would not be able to offer accommodation to any single male the very next day.

We have vulnerability triage on the day single males apply for international protection. If somebody is deemed to be so vulnerable that he needs a bed on the day, we will give it to them if available. If we were to offer all of the limited number of beds we had available to all the single males waiting, we would not even be able to do the vulnerability triage in a humane way.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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To go back to the figures, Mr. Delaney is stating that most of the 2,500 beds are available but that only about 280 of those are available for single men. Are the others all in family units or in units for women?

Mr. David Delaney:

Families, couples, single women, and a mix of those.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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With regard to the 2,000 beds for Ukrainians, what is the gender or family mix or breakdown?

Mr. David Delaney:

It translates into about 640 rooms. I cannot give the exact configuration. We had a 90-day policy in place that has been changed to a 30-day policy, but we do accept exemptions. If somebody with a medical need comes into the State and is looking for 30-day accommodation, we need to accommodate them. We need a buffer in that regard. I said we have 2,000 beds, which means a 10% buffer. In the next six weeks, we will get that down to 7%. The difference between Ukrainian protection and international protection is the far more temporary nature. The conditions attached to IP are far more detailed and onerous. We are driving things down.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

To add to that, a fair bit of work was done on this over the course of 2025. We started off in March of last year with 3,500 people homeless. It is still 500, which is a huge number, but it is down from 3,500 at the beginning of the year.

We are under some pressure in relation to single-male accommodation, as Mr. Delaney has said. For example, we had accommodation at the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum that is not available to us at the moment because the LDA has moved on that site. We keep this under review on a daily basis and really do put a lot of effort into trying to accommodate people, but it is about maintaining a balance.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Are there more or fewer single male IPAS beds in the system now than a year ago, or is the number the same?

Mr. David Delaney:

I could not be sure. The number is probably a little lower because, between developments at the Central Mental Hospital and some other locations, we have had a shrinkage of availability. Some of that we knew was coming down the line, so, as the Secretary General has pointed out, we tried to sensibly manage the portfolio in that dynamic and not put ourselves into a crisis when the Central Mental Hospital beds went out of the system. We tried to manage it knowing that.

We do an analysis every week, asking whether there are beds in the system, whether for single males, families or couples, that we feel may be in jeopardy. Contracts may not be renewed. We do inspections and may have concerns. We are always analysing and profiling.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Currently, 534 people who have fled here seeking asylum are homeless, which is a breach of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. Why are we not using the 280 or so beds made for single men, particularly as these individuals are single males? Why are we not just putting them into the beds as opposed to putting them on the streets? Why are we not reallocating some of the accommodation? I do not fully understand the Chinese wall between the accommodation for Ukrainians and IPAS accommodation. Could family or other rooms be repurposed? We have capacity, so why are there people on the streets? There are two parts to my question. The first relates to the 280 available beds, which is the simplest aspect, and the second relates to repurposing, which I accept would take a bit of work.

Mr. David Delaney:

That is okay. Maybe I will give a little detail on what we also do in the system. I spoke about the vulnerability triage on the day people arrive. We also have partnerships with NGOs in Dublin that provide day services, food and the capacity to wash and do laundry. We also have a partnership with an NGO service that does seven-day outreach services in the evenings and at night to identify rough sleepers. We take this very seriously. The weekly expense allowance, which is €39, is paid, but on top of that we pay a further €75 to asylum seekers awaiting an offer of accommodation. If there a lot in the system in terms of reception condition offers-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is not Mr. Delaney’s fault, but giving people €100 a week and a tent to sleep on the streets does not represent a lot in the system. These people are who are fleeing here.

Mr. David Delaney:

I am giving the Deputy clarity on what we are doing. As I have said previously, if we were to offer beds to all 500 males awaiting an offer of accommodation, we would not be able to do so. We only have 280.

On top of that, we know there are certain centres within the system for single males that might be unlikely to remain in the system, whether they want to exit themselves or whether we have concerns, so we need to maintain a small buffer for that reason as well. As I said, between people who would be identified under vulnerability triage or identified as vulnerable through the outreach service, we need beds for those people as well. Quite frankly, 280 beds is very much on the line. I think that explains that aspect of the Deputy's question.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay.

Mr. David Delaney:

On Deputy Murphy's second question about reallocation, we have done that. Part of the reason we have been able to reduce the number from 3,500 to 500, even with certain centres exiting the system, has been pivoting the system like that. That has worked to a certain extent. As part of contracts with a lot of providers, it is specified that it is for families, couples or a mix. We are not in a position to amend those contracts or providers are not in a position where they want to amend it, so our hands are somewhat tied in scenarios like that as well. It is not a thing that we have not done it - we have - but we have reached a point where we do not have as much flexibility within the system to do it much further.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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These are people who have potentially gone through horrendous trauma. They may have seen family members killed and fled horrific situations and are now sleeping on the streets. Does the Department keep data on where these people are and does it keep data on assaults on homeless asylum seekers?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Obviously, we keep in touch with the Garda. I do not think all 500 are on the street. Some are couch surfing and so forth. I am not saying that is a great solution either but, manifestly, they are not all on the streets.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Ms McPhillips does not know?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I live in the city-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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No, that is not what I am saying and it is not a criticism, but the Department does not know. Is that true? It does not whether are people are sleeping rough?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is outreach through the NGOs we contract to monitor rough sleepers. There are a small number of rough sleepers - too many - but at the same time, it is a small number. We take an interest in that and keep in touch with the Garda. The safety of people is our paramount concern.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is that small number 300? Is it 200?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I could not put a number on it but, manifestly, at times, they are not all homeless and sleeping rough.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Maybe, but the Department does not know. It seems strange to me. In terms of keeping data on attacks on asylum seekers whom the Department has put onto streets - in line with Government policy; it is not Ms McPhillips' personal responsibility - does the Department keep figures on that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do not have data but the Garda definitely pays close attention to the safety of people who are sleeping rough.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank Ms McPhillips.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Garda maintains hate crime data as well, so that is a factor.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to change course and topic slightly and have a look at the awarding of contacts for the provision of asylum seeker accommodation. I know the Government has admitted it does not check with the Garda to ensure these providers do not have a criminal record. That is fair enough. A system was introduced last year which means accommodation providers must supply a personal declaration to say they are tax compliant and do not have a criminal record, if I am right. I believe when the Department was questioned on this by the Sunday Independent, it confirmed these declarations are not verified with An Garda Síochána. I would like to tease this out a little bit. First, why not? Second, is the Department aware of criminals actively bidding for these contracts from the Department?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will take the second question first and say no. At the same time, I will ask Mr. Delaney to come on in on the detail of this. The due diligence we do is the same diligence that is done across the State in relation to placing contracts.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not dispute that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Generally, it is not less than that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to tease out where there may be areas we need to suggest might need to be strengthened. I want clarity on the process is at the moment and what checks and balances are in place.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. Delaney to go through that.

Mr. David Delaney:

I thank the Deputy. Our due diligence process reflects the public procurement guidelines from 2023 that would have been issued by the Office of Government Procurement. In terms of that self-declaration, that would be a reflection of standards required by an individual or company contracting with the State. We require the self-declaration to be notarised as well, so there is a further legal undertaking that a provider or person must give by doing that.

It would not be normal across the system to carry out Garda checks then. That would be an accepted standard in most instances. Even if companies are domiciled elsewhere, we require they must be registered in Ireland with the Companies Registration Office. Obviously, there is a requirement around directors to reach standards to be able to do that. We check properties with Tailte Éireann. We also get confirmation that no foreign financial contributions have been involved in the setting up of the business or the development of the property. We also require a tax clearance cert as part of the contract.

Generally, we pay monthly on foot of invoices received. We check those invoices but every single invoice has to have a valid and up to date tax clearance cert. It cannot be a case of we sent one in a few months ago and that is fine. Every single month, a valid, brand new one has to be issued, if it is coming up to its expiry date. We also do pre-occupancy inspections and have boots on the ground whenever we get a new property. As we have an inspection regime that has made over 400 inspections in 2025, any contract that is up for renewal will have had a relatively recently inspection. We will have seen the property. Staff will have met with the managers. We will know exactly what we are dealing with.

I think that gives the Deputy a broad perspective on how we go about doing this.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It does. The reason I am asking this is because the dogs on the street know some of these people who are operating some of these centres are criminals. There is a perception that some of the money that is funding this is the proceeds of crime. The way around that is perhaps to have family members or relatives front the company that is applying for the tender. This has been raised with the Minister. I am not just raising that here.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will just clarify something for the Deputy. The money that is funding this is public money, so it is not the proceeds of crime.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, I know that. I mean the funding of setting up the centre, kitting it out and putting themselves in a position where they are able to apply for the contract. I do not mean the funding and I appreciate the clarification on that. There is probably a broader need for a cross-agency approach with CAB, in my view, so that there are spotters for this. There are some people the Department and the Minister are aware of and I understand contracts have been revoked as a result of information on this.

On the back of that, what immediate steps are being taken to now ensure none of these contracts are awarded to these types of characters, going forward? Is there dialogue ongoing with CAB about that to spot these at the outset so we are not put in the position later on that we have to revoke contracts?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Just on the general point with CAB, whatever the nature of the crime is, CAB does not exclude anyone from its investigations. If people are involved in crime, CAB will target them. CAB has neighbourhood profilers in each Garda division and they get a lot of local information through that network. It has actually proved really useful for CAB over the past few years. There is no nature of business or activity in the State that is except from that and this would fall into that if that is the case as well. That is an option that is open to people and open to CAB as well.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but with regard to dialogue with the Department of justice about these characters availing of contracts to provide asylum accommodation, is there dialogue about that, whether it be CAB's intelligence coming to the Department or the Department having concerns and approaching CAB? Is there any kind of cross-agency communication in that regard?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will not comment on intelligence but the process of placing a contract is very much a legal process. Mr. Delaney might go into that. The notarised declaration that we require people to complete from 2025 onwards deals with a lot of risks in relation to that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On the inspections and monthly invoicing and all of that, are steps taken to mitigate those risks?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I appreciate that.

I will move on to non-compliant procurement. The high value of non-compliant procurement reported by the Vote of the then Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in the past few years related mainly to contracts entered into for the provision of international protection accommodation services. In 2021, its non-compliant procurement was over €90 million, and that related to the provision of international protection accommodation. I do not believe the Ukraine war was under way at that stage. In 2022, the figure rose to €111 million, in 2023, it was €84 million, and in 2024, it was €52 million. All of this relates to the provision of international protection accommodation services.

The Department's own non-compliant procurement figure for 2024 was actually only €5 million, which was significantly less. I acknowledge that before we go any further. Where I am going with this is that now the Department has taken over the international protection accommodation services, IPAS, obviously the Department is committed to ensuring that it will fully comply with procurement rules and the Department does not see itself in that position and the Irish taxpayer does not see the Department in that position. But does the Department have a figure for 2025? I know they are not published yet so perhaps there is an estimate as I am curious to see if the amount has risen from the €5 million. I sincerely hope it is nowhere near the previous Department's figures in this regard.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I feel like I did see it but I just do not have it in front of me for the 2025 figure, and we obviously have not completed the return yet. It is due at the end of next month. I feel like it is lower but let me come back to the Deputy on that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I presume there was engagement with the Office of Government Procurement ahead of the IPAS transition from that Department to the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to ensure that safety nets were in place.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Not with the Office of Government Procurement but we have our own procurement function in the Department and a principal officer leading that who has great expertise. He used to work in the OGP. Creating that resource has brought a great deal of rigour to our own procurement processes over the last few years. Hopefully we will continue to do that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Listening to the witnesses answering my colleagues before they come to me I have every confidence they were aware of the risks and they are trying to put the step measures in place. I would, however, be curious to see that figure if Ms McPhillips could provide it just to see. If a Department seems to be prudent, is aware of the risks and is putting measures in place but the figures rise dramatically, then there is a bigger problem that is not necessarily down to the Department.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As I have said before at the committee, the circumstances of 2022 and 2023 for the Department of children were not such that anybody could do procurement in any kind of lengthy or very protracted way. It was just not an option for them at the time and they did what they had to do. Since 2024 onwards a huge amount of work has gone into the governance, both when they were in the Department of children and since they have come over, in order to regularise that and make sure that the processes are as tight as they can be. People did what they absolutely had to do in the interests of the State at the time.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to pick up on something from earlier when Deputy McAuliffe was asking Mr. Delaney about the cost per head and so on. The figures showed that the State spent €1.2 billion last year on asylum accommodation. This was almost double the expenditure of 2023. I think it works out at an average daily spend of €3 million a day for the 33,000 international protection applicants. There are nearly 10,000 children in that. I note that it was said that reports and figures are not lining up. Mr. Delaney mentioned the dialogue he was having with his counterparts in other European countries at his level. From that, is Mr. Delaney able to tell us today how our spend compares with our EU neighbours?

Mr. David Delaney:

I do not have figures like that to hand so I would not like to comment. I think Ireland is definitely in a different sort of cycle. Talking to European colleagues, they said that the Syrian crisis around 2015 was a moment of big numbers coming into their states. They had to adapt quickly and come up with solutions. They were probably experiencing what we experienced from 2022 on. We did not have much of an influx into Ireland when the Syrian crisis hit and when people were moving across Europe. Ironically, when I was talking about experiences of the last three or four years, they said that they would have come across that ten years ago-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In 2015 or 2017 in Europe.

Mr. David Delaney:

While I do not have those figures to hand, we can look at that and see what we have. Some of it is obviously in the general public domain as well.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Byrne. We will now take a short break.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Thanks to all the witnesses for coming back again. I might just start on the rough sleeping issue that Ms McPhillips was probed a bit about earlier. The Department does not have data on the number of international protection applicants who are rough sleeping in Dublin on any given night. Is that correct?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is right.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms McPhillips aware that for over a decade the Dublin Simon Community has carried out rough sleeping outreach counts for homeless people who are not international protection applicants? Ms McPhillips mentioned that outreach providers are contracted solely to deal with international protection applicants. Who are those providers?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. Delaney to answer if that is okay.

Mr. David Delaney:

One provider assisting us in this is Tiglin whose workers go out seven nights per week. While we do not have a sense of the numbers of rough sleepers at any given moment in time, they are out there on the ground interacting with people, getting their details, feeding them back to us and when we have accommodation available, we are able to make offers. We think we have a fairly good system in place to identify people.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What kind of data does Tiglin provide to the Department from this nightly activity and does it retain any data?

Mr. David Delaney:

I will have to get back to the Deputy on that. They generally get the residence card number to confirm they are an international protection applicant and I assume the name. I will check whatever else is-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Who does Tiglin give that information to?

Mr. David Delaney:

A team in IPAS receives the information.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Who represents IPAS? Is that Mr. Delaney, but he does not know whether this information is being provided?

Mr. David Delaney:

It is being provided.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He has never seen it. Is that correct?

Mr. David Delaney:

No. I would get reports-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why is that?

Mr. David Delaney:

-----but I do not necessarily see the-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What does it say in the reports Mr. Delaney gets from Tiglin?

Mr. David Delaney:

To be clear Deputy, I would not necessarily be involved in the communication between Tiglin and the team dealing with this who would report it to me.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Who receives the reports from Tiglin if it is not Mr. Delaney. Is it somebody below him? Then, what does that person do with those reports?

Mr. David Delaney:

They would then go through the report and see what available accommodation is in the system and they would refer it for action.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Delaney has never seen those reports. Is that correct?

Mr. David Delaney:

I would get a consolidated report then of details. I do not know how much those details would be taken from our system or information from-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms McPhillips said we have no data of rough sleepers who are international protection applicants.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not aware of it, Deputy. I suppose it is possible that somebody has it but I am not aware of it

Mr. David Delaney:

To be clear, we have an NGO out doing this. I could not in any confidence say that they are interacting with every rough sleeper.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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For over a decade, the Dublin Simon Community has been carrying out rough sleeping assessments of the figures for homeless people. Those are the figures that are published and the DRHE relies on those figures. Mr. Delaney is saying that the Department is paying Tiglin. How much does it pay Tiglin to carry out the surveys?

Mr. David Delaney:

I do not have those details in front of me.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Delaney might come back to the committee in respect of that. There is an outreach service for the people who are rough sleeping, but Mr. Delaney has never seen any of the reports that Tiglin do about the people who are rough sleeping. Is that correct?

Mr. David Delaney:

I have seen a summary and a consolidation of the reports.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Okay, and what is in the summary and the consolidation of the reports?

Mr. David Delaney:

It would be details of the applicant's name, date of birth and confirmation of the temporary residence number, that type of thing.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does it have the date of the night the person was seen?

Mr. David Delaney:

Yes, it would confirm when the outreach service would have interacted with an asylum seeker.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Extracted from those reports, surely it is possible to decipher a figure, on a given week, of how many people who are rough sleeping are international protection applicants.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We can have a look at it and see what is discernible. In my own defence, we have this since last May, so I am not aware of all the detail across the system. Mr. Delaney's team may well have this detail and we get it for the Deputy if we have it.

Mr. David Delaney:

Just to manage expectations, because someone was a rough sleeper on a Monday does not mean they remained rough sleeping. They may have got an offer from IPAS, which means they are no longer a rough sleeper. That is why we could not in confidence say we have a definitive figure but we can confidently say we have a service working on it.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Surely somebody can extract the information from the reports? Does Tiglin report on a daily, weekly or monthly basis? What is the reporting requirement?

Mr. David Delaney:

It is generally daily.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So somebody can carry out an assessment of a trend over the past six months. Ms. McPhillips might do that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We will get that to the Deputy.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate if Ms McPhillips could provide those trends. I ask this question for a very specific purpose. Ms McPhillips has stated that we have got the figure down of people presenting from 3,500 to 500. Why has the Department rested on its laurels with that figure of 500? Are we done now?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, it was lower at one point. It was down in the 400s at some stage last year and it has come back up again a bit, so we are not resting our laurels at all. We are trying to drive that number down as much as we can, but having regard to the need to keep some capacity in the system, as Mr. Delaney was saying earlier.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What are the trade-offs? Quite rightly, Ms. McPhillips said that it is not the case that all these people are rough sleeping. If they were, we would know about it. A lot of them, if not the vast majority of them, are probably couch surfing with friends but a huge number are still rough sleeping. Should we not be trying to eliminate rough sleeping? How do we do that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is very difficult. We are trying to maximise the amount of alternative accommodation that we have without creating more cost in the system. Mr. Delaney has teams working on that.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The challenge with the continuation of any level of rough sleeping is first of all they are adjacent to just one area because they are near Mount Street, where they have to submit their applications. They can only find certain locations, which are sometimes parks or near playgrounds or sometimes near schools. In managing homelessness, the DRHE does everything humanly possible to avoid people rough sleeping. It contracts outreach people all of the time. The circumstances in which you would find a homeless person in a tent in Dublin City who is not an international protection applicant are extremely different to an international protection applicant who might be sleeping in a tent. More often than not - I presume close to 100% of the time - the international protection applicant who is in a tent on the streets of Dublin wants to be, and would be if given the opportunity, in an international protection accommodation service. Why can we not get to that place? Is it related to pull and push factors? Is there any reason why we are allowing the continuation of any amount of rough sleeping of international protection applicants? I do not buy the resources argument because the Department could do this if it wanted to. It has proven that it has reduced the numbers dramatically. There was a massive change in approach after the build-up of international protection applicants in tents around Mount Street. That resulted in where we are now. Yet, there is still an amount of rough sleeping that should not be happening. If the Department did not want it to happen it could do something about it. However, if the witnesses do not have the data in front of them, that is a challenge.

Mr. David Delaney:

I am happy to address that, Deputy. I would point to the fact that there has been success in the last year, getting it down from 3,500 to 400 at one point.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It feels like they have stopped.

Mr. David Delaney:

To clarify, we have not stopped. There definitely was an uptick in the numbers of applications for asylum in quarter 4 of 2025. We have seen the numbers still hitting between 1,100 and 1,200 per month now in 2026. In simple terms, the number applying has increased, which has put increased pressure on the system. In addition, as the Secretary General pointed out, in the Central Mental Hospital, significant hundreds of beds for single males came onto the system-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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You are well planned. You know the trends now and you have done a good job of managing where we are now. You can have a level of expectation. Does Mr. Delaney know the average duration of rough sleeping an international protection applicant might have before they enter accommodation? Is that information you guys have?

Mr. David Delaney:

We will see if we can collate that, but ultimately that is a variable figure. As I said, someone might be rough sleeping and then might find out-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is variable, but there are lots of them, so there will be a pattern or a trend over a six- or nine-month period.

Mr. David Delaney:

We can look at that, but I would qualify any information by pointing out there are different realities-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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You can only base the data on the people Tiglin has engaged with, and I acknowledge that, but at least you have a base from which to work. I encourage that be worked on because the elimination of international protection applicants rough sleeping on our streets should be a priority for the Department of justice.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a priority. The CMH site was a significant safety valve for us for the past few years. It provided us with 400 beds, in tents admittedly, but it was a safe place for people to sleep and we used that to the maximum. We have lost that in recent weeks and it has had an impact. It is worth saying that we do not believe people are rough sleeping for long, but it obviously has an impact on them and the community around them.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is not even the length. It is the fact of the continuation. It does not matter from the community's point of view whether it is the same person in the tent in an area. The continuation of persons in tents rough sleeping adjacent to the Mount Street office should not be permitted just because the Department has done a good job of reducing the larger numbers.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is definitely undesirable, but taking 400 beds out of the system in Dundrum has made a difference to us over the past few weeks. We need to-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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You knew that was coming. I am not being funny, but you knew that was coming.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I know, but it had gone on for a long time at the same time.

Mr. David Delaney:

We had concerns it was coming, but it had been coming on numerous occasions over the past year or two. We were cautious but somewhat optimistic. We had to be careful, and we were careful. We were able to absorb the loss of those beds. However, to be frank, I believe it was awaiting a decision from An Coimisiún Pleanála or a High Court judgment - I am not sure which - and if that had gone a different way, we would still have the tents. There is flexibility in that. To take up the Deputy's point, we know the trends now. We are still very much in a dynamic where there could be an uptick or a downtick of between 20% and 30%. That is a very big change. We are still in what I would consider to be moving towards a stable environment, but in terms of trend analysis and the like, it is still an environment that can change quickly. I just give that perspective on it.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. We had a previous engagement before Christmas and a number of us touched on the huge expenditure on IPAS. Some of my questions will relate to IPAS, but also to ARP and provision of Ukrainian accommodation. To say the figures are off the charts is an understatement, so it is only right that the public accounts committee get to scrutinise this and give it extensive hearings when we have over €2.2 billion being spent on provision of accommodation. I would say that some of that is in a chaotic manner, so much so that it led a fairly damning report being carried out by the C and AG last year focusing on IPAS. The witnesses might correct me if I am wrong, but some of those issues probably transcend into the provision of Ukrainian accommodation.

I start with ARP. Earlier, in response to Deputy Bennett, it was said that a perception was inferred that the ARP impacted on the private rental market, which was the basis for making the adjustments.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was one of the factors.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was one of the factors. Therefore, a perception led to a change in the rate being paid.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There was a policy decision about that. Is that fair, Mr. Rowley?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

It is. That was one of the factors in terms of the potential impact on the labour market. From what we have seen, it possibly impacted on approximately 15%. It has a disproportionate impact in counties that have lower rents, such as Donegal.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You referred to a potential impact. What kind of process was there? Was a review carried out? What kind of an analysis was done?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

The Department of housing looked at this. As a result, there is legislation going through the Houses at the moment to exclude properties registered with the RTB from accessing-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A report was produced on foot of analysis.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There was internal-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that shared with the Department of justice?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

It was shared with us. There are different views on it. When it comes to the ARP, it has sometimes attracted a kind of captiousness in terms of its pros and cons. I will just say that it has unlocked a considerable amount of accommodation for people.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will touch on that, but there are other concerns there. One of those concerns was the impact it would have on the private rental market where there were limited properties and this untaxed payment going to landlords for the provision of accommodation and the impact that would have in certain areas. I would not say they are areas where there are pockets of pressure zones. There are pressure zones across the State in the provision of private rental accommodation. That report commissioned and carried out by the Department of housing was shared with the Department of justice. May we be furnished with a copy of that report?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

We can absolutely get that to the committee.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is the Department of housing's report though, so I think you would need to write to housing. I am not sure we have the whole thing.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

I am not sure it is finalised yet, but once it is, we can liaise with colleagues on it. That was just one factor. The other factor was to bring payments in line with other member states where they were tapering supports for Ukrainians. That is important to note.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There were changes made in the provision or allocation of accommodation to Ukrainians. They moved from full and unrestricted access to accommodation. It then went down to 90 days and it is now 30 days. Are there still people availing of accommodation who have unrestricted provision of accommodation?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, that is pre-March 2024.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes, we have approximately 17,500 people in that accommodation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Are there people under the 90-day rule?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They are timing out. I would say they are nearly gone at this point because we are at more than 90 days since the November change.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The 30 day is obviously the remainder, bringing it up to 23,000. Is that correct?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

I think there are approximately 17,500 in commercial accommodation. Maybe I was confusing it.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking for a specific figure for those who have an unrestricted duration of time they can spend in contracted accommodation.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

That figure is 17,500. Two policy levers are also important to note. There was the introduction of 90 days in March 2024 and, subsequently, the introduction of 30 days in November 2025. At the same time-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many are impacted by the 30-day measure?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is roughly 500 people. I think that is the figure I saw in the past couple of days. I will come back with that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What other changes are there for the 17,500 people? I know changes were made that people availing of accommodation would have to make a contribution towards accommodation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is in IPAS. Sorry, is it Ukraine as well?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There is no contribution model for the Ukraine system.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit strange that the Secretary General would not know.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

It is important to note there is another important policy that was introduced in November. That precluded people from re-entering accommodation. Essentially, people got one offer of accommodation and one offer only.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do any Ukrainians availing of accommodation make a contribution towards accommodation?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

In the rapid-build development, there are 2,600 who pay.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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They are in rapid build, so there are none in commercially provided.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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None. Okay. A figure was given about contracts that had been in place versus the number of commercial contracts in place now. I think the current figure given was approximately 500.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There are 560 currently in place.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is down. At the height, there was-----

Mr. Conor Rowley:

There were over 1,000. We had 448 contract terminations in the past two years.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On the basis on which those contracts were entered, some properties were repurposed to be available for Ukrainian accommodation. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Yes, we had refurbishments, commercial accommodation, hotels, guest houses, complexes, etc.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What was the capital cost of carrying out some of that work, and where was that borne?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

The capital costs for the refurbishments were €8.5 million, and that was run through the Department of housing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was across the board for refurbishments to bring property into use. Were there any contracts entered into where some of those costs might have been borne out in the contract over a two-year period? Were there any contracts entered into in that regard?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

No, but in the refurbishment situation, we offered a longer contract to the six to three months we offer in commercial accommodation. That is because of the upfront costs people were entering into.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were there any other funding streams through local authorities?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

That was through the local authorities.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That €8.5 million was through local authorities. Of those, we got a figure earlier of approximately 2,000 beds currently unoccupied within the 560 contracts currently in place. Am I correct in saying that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is important to note we do not pay for them if they are not occupied. Is that fair, Mr. Rowley?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Everything is occupied at present, but we did in the past pay for things where there was no occupancy in there. We were holding certain accommodation for vulnerable cohorts and for moving people from high-cost hotels into certain areas, such as refurbished accommodation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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When did that change in policy happen, where you were paying for unoccupied beds?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It was near the beginning.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

It was actually at the beginning. The committee has to remember the system was overwhelmed, but there was no system. The system had to be done in parallel and retrospectively.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is the problem. There is no system anywhere, and that is one of the fundamental causes.

Mr. Conor Rowley:

All the controls were retrospective.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a specific instance in Edenderry in County Offaly, where a former shoe factory was repurposed. It was announced by an ex-Minister that it was going to be used, with a two-year contract put in place. It was going to provide accommodation for 55 Ukrainians. This was back in 2024, and the works had been completed over several months. That has remained completely unoccupied for over two years and is still unoccupied. Would you have any information on that?

Mr. Conor Rowley:

Is that in Clara in Offaly?