Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome everyone to the meeting. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. In advance of inviting the Minister to deliver her opening statement, I wish to advise the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. The Minister and members are protected by absolute privilege in respect of a presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

On 17 December last, the Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for the Public Service in respect of Vote 40 - Children, Disability and Equality, and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, be referred to the select committee At this meeting, we will be considering these Revised Estimates and reporting back to the Dáil. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Revised Estimates for 2026 may be discussed at this meeting. While I acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Foley, has responsibility for children, disability and equality, I advise all present that the remit of this committee only permits for the consideration of the children and equality aspect of the Revised Estimate relating to Vote 40. Therefore, members should focus their questions on children and equality. The Select Committee on Disability Matters will consider the Revised Estimate relating to disability on 25 February. Following that consideration, it will report back to the Dáil separately.

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her officials. Accompanying the Minister are: Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretary; Ms Anne-Marie Brooks, assistant secretary; Ms Lara Hynes, assistant secretary; Mr. Gordon Gaffney, principal officer; and Ms Sinéad McEvoy, principal officer.

The proposed format of the meeting is that I will invite the Minister to brief the committee on Votes 40 and 25. We will then open up to questions from members of the committee. I will call on members in accordance with the speaking rota. Each member will be allowed ten minutes as opposed to seven for questions in the opening round. If the allocation allows, we will have a second round. I remind members that their time must also include time for the Minister to answer. I invite the Minister to deliver her opening statement.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the members of the committee for making time available this morning to consider the 2026 Revised Estimates for the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. The group comprises Votes 40 and 25. Vote 40, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality, has an overall gross financial allocation for 2026 of €6.92 billion for current expenditure and €138 million for capital expenditure. The 2026 allocation supports a range of key services in respect of children and young people, such as child protection and family support services provided by Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, early learning and care, and school-age childcare services. In addition, it provides for the Government’s response to the sad legacy of mother and baby institutions. It also provides funding for the areas of equality and inclusion, encompassing matters relating to human rights, gender equality, LGBTQI+ and the Traveller and Roma communities. Further provision is made for disability policy and services.

Vote 25 relates to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. The latter is an independent public body that accounts to the Oireachtas, with a mandate established under the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014, for which I, as Minister, have responsibility. The gross allocation for IHREC this year is €10.584 million.

The gross allocation of €7.058 billion set out in the Revised Estimate of expenditure for Vote 40 relates to all the functions which come under the remit of the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. On a like-for-like comparison, this 2026 allocation is 11% or €716 million higher than the 2025 Supplementary Estimate allocation or 15% higher than the 2025 Further Revised Estimate.

This year, over 96% of the Department’s funding will be concentrated in three areas, namely: specialist community-based disability services which account for 55% of the total allocation; early learning and childcare which accounts for 22%; and the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, which accounts for 19%. A meeting of the Select Committee on Disability Matters will be held on 25 February. The Revised Estimates for disability services will be considered separately at that time.

I will now briefly address early learning and childcare, Tusla and the remainder of the Vote in turn. Early learning and care and school-age childcare funding for 2026 stands at €1.528 billion and accounts for 22% of the Vote’s allocation. This represents an increase of €169 million, or 12%, over the 2025 Supplementary Estimate allocation or €143 million, or 10%, compared with the 2025 Further Revised Estimate.

The allocation allows for the continuation of the national childcare scheme, benefiting approximately 277,000 children in 2026. The allocation includes provision for approximately 27,000 additional children to benefit from their statutory entitlement to the scheme. Further enhancements to the national childcare scheme income-assessed subsidy will be introduced in September 2026. These include increasing the lower income threshold from €26,000 to €34,000 and the upper threshold from €60,000 to €68,000, improving affordability for up to 47,000 children from lower-income families.

The 2026 allocation also provides for the continuation of the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme which will benefit over 105,000 children this year. It provides additional funding for an increasing cohort of children with a disability availing of targeted access and inclusion model, AIM, supports, as well as additional funding to expand these supports beyond time spent in the ECCE programme, in term and out of term, and a 10% increase in the AIM level 7 capitation rate, to bring these rates into line with the new hourly rate of pay for educators. There is also a capital allocation of €36 million. In addition, the Department has secured a capital carryover from 2025 of €7.69 million for early learning and childcare and this funding is in addition to the €36 million allocated in the Revised Estimates Volume.

In 2026, I will also deliver on other key commitments, including the continued roll-out of the equal participation model. A further building block scheme will open for applications in 2026 delivering 1,500 places and a range of regulatory and equality measures. The allocation under this area is a clear demonstration of the Government's commitment to continue to grow investment in early learning and childcare, given the benefits it confers on children, their families, society and the wider economy.

The Revised Estimates Volume 2026 contains provision of approximately €1.37 billion for Tusla, which represents an increase of €116 million, or 9%, over the 2025 Supplementary Estimate or €176 million, or 15%, compared to the 2025 Further Revised Estimate. This funding will allow Tusla to continue to provide support for foster carers, with provision for full-year costs of the increases in the weekly foster care allowances brought in part-way through last year, as well as additional funding for support to foster families during the initial placement of a new foster child. In addition, the funding will allow for expenditure on special care and residential care, as well as providing for expected increases in the numbers of separated children seeking international protection. Funding has also been provided to maintain and grow family support services and early intervention and preventative programmes throughout the country, including an expansion to the network of family resource centres.

In responding to the final report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, the Government approved an action plan with measures designed to respond to the priority needs and concerns of survivors. Many of these key measures are now in place and the programme for Government reaffirms the Government's commitment to continue delivery of the plan. To support implementation of the action plan, funding of €66 million is being made available in 2026. This allocation is being provided to fund a range of measures which respond to the tragic legacy of mother and baby institutions, including the mother and baby institutions payment scheme, the intervention at Tuam, the special advocate for survivors and the national centre for research and remembrance. The mother and baby institutions payment scheme opened to applicants on 20 March 2024. To date, more than 7,000 applications have been received and over 6,400 decisions have issued. More than 5,200 payments have been made, totalling over €79 million.

In relation to the rest of the Vote, there are other important policy areas that will be progressed in 2026. The 2026 Estimate sees increased funding, which will allow the Department to progress new national strategies on Travellers and Roma, LGBTQ+ inclusion, and women and girls. These will aim to address key equality issues and to improve opportunities for diverse groups at risk of discrimination.

Whilst the youth affairs area transferred to the Department of Education and Youth in 2025, I note that my Department retains important child and youth participation functions. These include a grant scheme to enable city and county councils to create and upgrade playgrounds, making them more accessible, inclusive and enjoyable for everyone. The provision of playgrounds for young children has improved in recent years, with around 960 playgrounds available in 31 council areas throughout the country.

The significant resources under the Department's Vote for 2026 allows for the continuation of vital services and supports to children, young people, families, survivors and those facing disadvantage or discrimination. They also provide some important opportunities for targeted development and improved services. I recommend Estimates for Children, Disability and Equality Vote 40 and I am happy to address any questions members may have.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. It is proposed to publish the briefing documents to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed. In regard to the speaking rota, I remind members they have ten minutes, starting with Deputy Aidan Farrelly, followed by Deputies Charles Ward, John Connolly and Grace Boland.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and her officials. I am not sure whether we have met since the launch before Christmas. I offer my sincere congratulations to them all on that. It was a real privilege to be there that day and see the positivity and hope in the room. I offer my sincere best wishes to them as they embark on trying to achieve the objectives of that plan and prepare phase 2 of it.

I would have thought that would have been the perfect opportunity to inform us about what we learned about a number of weeks later, namely, the State-led services. I am concerned about how the information has been published because it has been scant on detail. That is in a context of a sector having waited so long for such an initiative. The idea that the State will lead on a number of projects directly providing childcare and early years services has the potential to have momentous impact in the sector. Will the Minister update the committee on where that is at, where these sites will be and the rationale for how this was presented to us?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. I appreciate his good wishes. The State-led scheme is a new initiative of the Government. Considerable work has gone into promoting the initiative and putting it together. For example, a number of meetings have been held with the city and county childcare committees because they will be the first ports of call for any local interest or local groups. Detailed information is available online. In fact, there is a booklet online outlining all the different elements and aspects of the State-led scheme. We have been clear from the outset that this year, in 2026, eight buildings will be purchased. We are beginning with the purchase of buildings. In the following years, we are also open to the building of premises. We have made it clear that any interest locally needs to be conveyed, in the first instance, to the local childcare committee. A forward planning unit in the Department is currently addressing areas where there is a clear lack of provision. That is the point. Where there is a dearth of provision, where no one else has stepped in, either a private provider or a community set-up, it is at that point that the State will step in. I acknowledge that excellent service is being provided throughout the country by either private or community providers but in certain areas there is definitely a lack of provision. For this reason, the State will step in.

In terms of examples of where we are going forward, we are engaging on the ground with local authorities. The first example of State-led provision will be in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why was that the first one?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was closest to being readily available.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All members will say there is a gap in services in our constituencies.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely, and that is the purpose-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The frustration is that everywhere in the country has gaps in services but we do not see a clear, transparent process by which these sites are going to be chosen.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is. A steering group is in place. There are representatives from a variety of Departments, including the OPW, the Department of Education and Youth, which has particular expertise in school building or whatever the case might be or any types of building. There are clear criteria in terms of-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are the criteria?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is done in the same way as the Department of Education and Youth has a forward planning unit that looks at all of the statistics available, whether those are figures from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, or information available through the local authorities. All those data are analysed by the forward planning unit and in the same way that a school is identified as needed in an area, childcare provision will be identified in an area. It is very similar.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a list on the Department of Education website of 300 or so schools at various stages of capital development for infrastructure.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Indeed.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not see that. Has the Department met with all the local authorities?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where will the eight sites be? That is crucial. Why would it publish this without telling us where the eight pilot sites are going to be? The Department has caused every constituency and every local authority to ask "Will it be us?" It is almost like a lottery at this point.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it absolutely is not. The Deputy will remember that this has just launched in the past number of weeks. We are setting out a plan as to how it will evolve over the coming years. This is the first step. It would be impossible to say that all sites have been identified. Indeed, if we were to do that, I believe it would be very unfair. The Deputy speaks of transparency but transparency means that any and all opportunities will be given locally first through the local childcare committees. If the Deputies present know of groups in their area, they will engage first with the local childcare committees. That will then be analysed at a national level by the advisory group and then the appropriate steps will be taken. This initiative is in its very early stages. It is not of the same standing as what is being achieved currently, after generations on generations, in the Department of Education and Youth. Members must allow it the time to grow and develop. For the Department to have stepped forward with all eight sites in the early stage would undermine the argument the Deputy makes on openness and transparency.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I respectfully disagree and I will state my reasons. The Department did not launch anything and then suddenly the media started reporting rumours of a site.

There was no formal announcement of Shanganagh. That came well after.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is incorrect.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That came after. The details of-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the Deputy is incorrect. It was me who announced that.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not true. That is not what happened. I would not challenge the Minister if she said that we were going to hold back on the other seven sites were she to say, in the briefing of all of this, that this is the process by which local authorities, children and young people's services committees, CYPSCs, and communities can register their interest in becoming chosen for this. My concern is the transparency about this and how we move forward with that. To really preface, this a fantastic initiative and I wish everybody all the best on this. It has the potential to make a wonderful difference. It with that context that I say that. A statement came out this-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I could come back in, I have the utmost of respect for the Deputy. He is entirely sincere in terms of his interest in what happens in this committee and his proactivity on the ground. I absolutely wish to acknowledge that.

Regarding Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and the Shanganagh Castle estate, however, that was an announcement that came from me. I said it publicly that this was going to be the first example. I said it on media and at every opportunity. I have never not said it publicly that this was the first identified opportunity. I wish to be clear about that. There was no question of somebody else finding that information or the information being disclosed in any other shape or form. It came directly from me.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have no time left if we keep going back and forward on that.

Will the Minister provide an update regarding the Tusla reform programme? Fifty social workers reportedly wrote to the CEO of Tusla before Christmas identifying their concerns about the Tusla reform programme and its implementation. From the Minister's perspective, will she give us an update on the status of that reform programme? Where is that at? Is it completed? Regarding the chair, we know the chair has stepped away and vacated his position. Is there a new chair to be put in place? Who is that going to be in Tusla?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to accept in the first instance that change is never easy. Change can be uncomfortable but change is necessary too. There is a need for reform for a concentration of services. That is what has been rolled out by Tusla at this point in terms of providing better services and better oversight on the ground. Specifically, regarding the new board, Madeleine Clarke has been appointed as the chair. In fact, under her leadership, the new board meets this week on Friday. That is important. I acknowledge the work of the previous board but having a new board in place as well gives a new emphasis and brings a new energy. I wish Ms Clarke well. I wish the new members of the board well.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have any concerns been raised with the Minister or the officials regarding the reform programme itself? What stage of the process is it at? There was a talk of a number of weeks where many people felt that it would require a significant number of months to complete a reform package in the way it was presented.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The CEO of Tusla, Kate Duggan, has set the target in terms of the roll-out to be early in this year. As with anything, in a full roll-out or the implementation of the full roll-out, there will be learnings with it. There will be time taken. If we do not start here and do not start with a new vision and new opportunities to deliver better and do better on the ground in terms of deliverability, particularly for children and families in the care of the State, then we do not have a sufficiency of ambition. It is important that we do this in 2026.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To remind members, the Minister is back in with us on 26 February on the topic of State-led childcare, etc. There will be plenty of opportunity to delve deeper into that topic again. I call Deputy Ward.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank everyone for coming in today. I thank the Minister. I am going to go on quickly because I am aware of my time here. I wish to go into the specifics of children and families affected by defective concrete and the guidance counselling supports for these children, which is not there but which would be funded under Vote 40 - Children, Disability and Equality. In County Donegal, the affected areas include entire estates, social and private homes, schools and childcare facilities. Peer reviewed research has been completed by the University of Ulster that found families living in defective concrete homes are experiencing extremely high rates of mental health difficulties. These peer read reviews published that depression is 30%, severe anxiety is 20%, complex PTSD is 15% and suicidal ideation is at 35%, which is well above the average.

A former teacher and a campaigner, Roisin Gallagher, has repeatedly requested additional counselling supports for families affected by defective concrete but the Department has responded that additional supports must come from existing guidance counsellor allocations. This is not happening on the ground. It is particularly in areas where whole estates are impacted and children are traumatised. If we take the example of somewhere like Carndonagh, where 90% of the homes and all the children who go to these schools are affected, there is nothing in place for them counselling-wise. Under Vote 40, will there be provisions? Can there be provisions? We are looking for some kind of hub for these people and their children to ensure that there is some form of counselling that they can avail of.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the enormous trauma that has been visited on families. The Deputy advocates in a particular way on this issue and I wish to acknowledge that. Regarding the defective blocks and all of that, it is being managed through the Department of housing. In terms of counselling supports in schools, it is the Department of education. In relation to additional supports that fall within the remit of this Department, we are doing all that we can, for example, to improve access and opportunity on the ground through family resource centres, expanding the work of the family resource centres and expanding the number of family resource centres. In fact, there was one recently announced for Donegal. This is an additional one in Donegal. That is for the benefit of children and the wider family. We will continue to do that. It is an objective here that we would do that. I acknowledge that the Donegal city and county childcare committees have been very proactive in this space. They have worked directly on the ground with services that have been impacted by the issue. I acknowledge the work that they do. I do not take away from the point that the Deputy has raised. It crosses a number of different Departments. For example, the counselling available in schools is also being rolled out on a pilot basis across primary schools. That is something that we never had before through the Department of education. That is where we are at the minute.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are looking at this under Vote 40. There is a massive gap here where we are talking about regions where there are 20,000 homes - we have estimated that it is in or around that - but we know by looking at the schools in these affected areas that there is such a vast amount that there is nothing in place that could catch them. It is a net that they are falling through. This has been going on for 15 years and this is leading to additional trauma going into the future. We are now dealing with young adults who are suffering through this. Under Vote 40, we definitely need to do something. Carndonagh is a shining example. Every single property that was in built in that area from 1997 all the way to 2014 is affected. That means thousands of children. No matter what, we could not provide resources for them. We need something. We are dealing with a humanitarian crisis that needs to be recognised as a humanitarian crisis for children. This is a trauma that they are going through but if we do not deal with this and if we do not get the proper supports in place now, this will become generational. This is why I am pressing the Minister on this.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I absolutely appreciate the Deputy's commitment to and passion for this area. In the first instance I will point to the family resource centre network we do have on the ground. I am happy to go back and look at what potential or possibility there is for supports on the ground via our family resource centres or whatever. I say that with the best of intention, not being able to say to the Deputy what-----

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand family resource centres are doing a fantastic job but when we are dealing with something of this scale it is an emergency situation we can see coming through. It is just unfortunate. I hope that the Minister can help and look at this issue. We need a hub where children can be helped through counselling services. I know the family resource centres are there but they would not be able to cope with what we are dealing with and what we can see on the ground. There is a reluctance and there is trauma. Getting parents to engage with all of the different counselling services is an extremely difficult job to do. We have facilitators and we have different bits and pieces but when it comes to the children I believe we need some kind of support hub that would definitely benefit them in the long term and provide services that can allow them to avoid trauma going into what we are dealing with now, which is intergenerational trauma from 15 or 20 years ago. We are dealing with that right now.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I with also raise it with the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health to see if there are any opportunities across Departments or whatever.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is great. I thank the Minister.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and her officials for being here today and all of the information they have provided. I will return briefly to the State-led provision of early learning and childcare facilities. I want to understand the level of interest that might have been expressed so far to the community childcare committees. Will the Minister give us a flavour of that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is phenomenal interest, as I know from my own engagements throughout the country. There is enormous interest in this. That is a positive because it means people are really acknowledging the power of the early years sector to be transformative for children, in the first instance, from an early education point of view. I also know of the enormous benefits it provides to families. The interest throughout the country is quite substantial. The target we had set this year is for eight buildings to be purchased simply because that is the quickest way to deliver. We envisage that, going forward, we will also build, as I mentioned earlier.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is obvious there is a lot of work being done. We have started work on a lot of our commitments. We have a good few big ticket items that the Minister is working on but the main one for me is the path to €200 per month childcare. I have seen the programme on this in my area where parts of my constituency would have quite high fees. They are not at Dublin standards but they are fairly high. I engage all of the time with people who are availing of the subsidies more and more. We had 15% more people in Meath during the past year availing of them. Will the Minister outline where she thinks we are on that path and how we will achieve this?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is an ongoing journey. We can say there are 277,000 children who will avail of the national childcare scheme this year. That is an increase of 27,000 children availing of the scheme so in total it is approximately a 12% increase. We are taking various steps to move towards €200 per month childcare. There is a consultation out at this point where we are asking for the views of parents, stakeholders and everybody across the sector in terms of early years and childcare but also about any specific points they wish to raise whether it is about the €200 childcare or otherwise.

We have introduced some elements. For example, as people are aware a fee freeze has been in place since 2022 and for that core funding has been introduced to balance that for the providers. We have also introduced fee caps. The most popular number of hours availed of by parents are between 40 and 50 hours. The highest rate of charge there was €295. Under the national childcare scheme parents will pay less than €200. I have committed to introducing a second fee cap this year. We will wait until all the returns are made by the providers, which will be during March and April and we will have a clearer understanding of the figures from the different providers. We will then subsequently announce another fee cap for September 2026.

I also acknowledge that we have introduced thresholds. We looked at thresholds and 47,000 additional parents will benefit from this. We have moved the threshold from €26,000 to €34,000 and €60,000 to €68,000. That means an additional 47,000 parents will benefit from greater access to the maximum of what can be made available under the national childcare scheme.

It is a step by step process in the programme for Government. There is determination that it will be achieved over the lifetime of the Government and I am confident we will do that.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. She mentioned the national play strategy and the importance of play for children in the information she provided us with today. She also mentioned the number of playgrounds provided by the councils which is all really important. Does that include teen spaces and skateparks or is it specifically younger children's playgrounds? I meet representatives of Foróige, Comhairle na nÓg and groups like that and their feedback is always that they are not welcome in the coffee shops, shops, petrol stations with cafés and places like that and they do not take part in organised sport. They are the forgotten age. Will the Minister give her views on that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The right to play is really important and very positive for the development of a child. We have made an allocation of €1 million this year to work with local authorities on inclusive playgrounds. It was €500,000 last year. The key word here is that the playgrounds would be "inclusive" and open to all children. Equally, we had dormant accounts funding last year of €500,000 which allowed for what the Deputy called the teen spaces and we will do similar this year. The very important point about that is that, for an application to be valid, the young people themselves had to be part of the process and be consulted about what they wanted in the space and what they figured was the need within their own area. If that was not evidential from the application, it was null and void. We speak frequently about the importance of the voice of young people and all of that and this is an example of proactive Government policy which means that a scheme cannot be advanced without the involvement, advice and engagement of young people. That funding is to develop the type of facility that might be identified by a young person and it has proven to be quite successful. It is our intention to roll that out again this year under the 2026 budget as well.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday, the Minister launched the education partnership with the Minister, Deputy Lawless, to support students with care experience. It will be hugely beneficial and it is a great initiative. I presume it is a pilot that will be rolled out in due course. How much is that costing? How much does the Minister envisage it will cost when it is rolled out nationally?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This scheme supports young people who have experience of care services and are moving into further and higher education. The scheme is cost neutral insofar as it comes from those who engage with young people on the ground. For example, the scheme is being rolled out through the auspices of the Kerry Education and Training Board, ETB, the Cork ETB, UCC and the Munster Technological University. It is very much a Munster-based scheme at the minute but it is a model of best practice that we envisage will be rolled out across the country. It brings together all of those who should be in a supportive role for young people as they leave the care system, such as Tusla, an academic lead within the further and higher education system and an access officer. The approach will depend on whatever is identified on the ground by the institute and ensure every young person has a dedicated or key person of contact. I acknowledge the great work that has been done by all the institutions that came together to do this.

The point was made that a young person needs one person of contact if he or she has an issue, say, an academic issue or an issue with services or whatever. What has happened here is that individuals within further education or higher education have stepped forward to do that and co-ordinate for the young person. They have also introduced schemes where, for example, in advance of the CAO process or whatever, they invite in the young people to sample courses and sit in on lectures or whatever the case might be. The central point is that a young person who has been in the care system does not automatically have the same level of support as another child who might have family scaffolding or whatever. With this, these young people would know that there is somebody in their corner, advocating for them and supporting them on their education journey in further and higher education. It is a great model and we look forward to other further and higher institutions coming on board.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. I will first focus on the capital allocation and the building blocks scheme. The last time the Minister was in or the last briefing we received in November, it looked like there was going to be a €9 million carryover of the capital allocation, which seems to have been reduced to €7.69 million. Will the Minister give us the reason for this slight reduction?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were issues with contracts being signed. As the Deputy will know, through the building blocks scheme, certain liens were put on the funding that was being provided, largely because it was a considerable amount of State funding and the State wanted to be sure that if the funding was given to a service, for example, that service continued in early learning, childcare, community and all of that. As the scheme was relatively new from that point of view and there were other legal issues, it took some time for contracts to be hammered out. Some services that were in receipt, or had been designated to be in receipt, of the funding identified some issues that they might have themselves that they had to straighten out before everything could be finalised. The carryover is due to that delay.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that. It is less of a carryover than expected, which is positive in that more money went out last year. I ask the Minister to confirm that.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. It was largely because more were sorted than-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Within the year.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Initially, the scheme seemed very problematic but some managed to get things sorted that bit quicker.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the complex legal framework that was probably involved. On the building blocks scheme, I understand that 78 applications were received and 23 were successful. How many are actually going ahead? What is their status? How many grants have been drawn down? A couple of applicants have pulled out, if I am right.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Some experienced challenges when it came to the ownership or lease of the site. There were some technical issues but we have sought to work through matters individually with each one where problems have been identified to see if there are opportunities to rectify or smooth out those issues. Fifty applications were successful. The contracting is ongoing. A very small number are not progressing, although I do not have that figure to hand. People have bent over backwards to ensure that, where it is possible, the scheme will happen. Where it has not been possible, it is due to things like the title of the land or whatever the case might be.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of the €25 million, how much do we expect will be provided for the scheme?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I assume that, between when the money is granted and the end of this year, we will use the maximum amount of that money.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think all of it had been allocated. With a couple of applicants dropping out, there will probably be a gap.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There will be but I cannot give the Deputy the final figure. A sum of €25 million was allocated and we will see how that goes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason I am focused on the amount is because €25 million is not a lot in the grand scheme of the issues that each of us face in our constituencies. Obviously, Balbriggan is the youngest large town in the country and Fingal is the youngest area and is rapidly growing. We have a huge need. For my constituents, I want to see this scheme be as successful as possible and deliver places in the areas where most needed. It would be good to hear how we will make sure that this scheme has been set up for success. I understand that the Minister will relaunch the scheme this year. I wonder what has been learned. Could we have a rolling window or a much wider window, given that this particular window occurred over Christmas?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with the Deputy. There should be great learning in terms of the turnaround times, starting earlier and all of that. This scheme will operate alongside other schemes like the new State-led scheme. We are not necessarily putting all of our eggs into one basket and recognise that different schemes will meet needs in different areas. There will be learnings from how things were rolled out in this instance. Groups on the ground may need time due to perhaps not being aware of issues that emerged only as the scheme evolved and was going through the legal process. The earlier we are appraised of those, the better. I agree with the Deputy that we need to find a better mechanism at an earlier point to identify that.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Great. I wish to briefly discuss the equality budgeting objective. Am I right in saying that the 2025 Revised Estimate was €6 million and is down to €5 million for 2026? Obviously, equality is a huge focus of mine. It is very important that we deliver upon equality. Until we do, we do not have a finished democracy. Considering we have the launch of the national study for women and girls, a reduction raised a concern for me.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I fully understand where the Deputy is coming from. In terms of women and girls, particular funding was required for that strategy to be up and running. The creation and launch of the gender pay gap portal and the IT system that was required necessitated an expenditure at the time that we no longer need to make. That is the only explanation. It is not a decrease in terms of service, but an acknowledgment that some of the costly technical work has been done and is no longer necessary.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good.

In terms of public policy impacts, our market participation rates are not too bad. What is not conveyed in the public policy impact outcomes is the fact that almost a third of all women work part-time, with the primary reason cited being caring responsibilities. We need an indicator in relation to the women who work part-time because we need to do everything to support those who want to work longer hours to do so. In fairness, Ireland's best asset is our hard-working women and men. We must do everything we can to facilitate them if they so choose to increase their hours.

It would be really important to have an indicator of the number working part-time.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a fair point.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that possible? Would that be possible to do?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will give the Deputy the straight answer and say I will ask for it to be looked at. I do not see why it would not be possible and I think it would be a valuable insight.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would help us to benchmark, going forward.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, and to determine what are the causes. For example, great efforts have been made in terms of choice, because it is about choice at the end of the day.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are those who might choose to be at home and those who might choose to be in the workforce but I absolutely accept, as some would say, that there are those who are compelled to be in the workforce. I am under no illusions there. Enormous efforts are being made through the different types of supports that are being provided when somebody has a child, including maternity leave, the extended leave that can be taken, parent's leave, paternity leave, and so on. All of those elements are important, as well as the services that are now being provided by the State like the preschool provision through the ECCE programme-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but my time is tight. On that last point, I would love to see a greater awareness in relation to entitlement to leave, particularly for men in terms of both parent's leave and paternity leave, because the take up rates are still shockingly low. It would be good to see a focus on that.

In terms of the guardian ad litem service, the Estimate is around €11 million. How does that compare to what has been spent on the outsourced services for guardian ad litem and legal services? What are we spending now on the outsourced service and how does that compare to what it is going to cost us to insource it?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have forecast €11.2 million -----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is to insource the service.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Exactly, yes but that cost is only a part-year cost because the service will be up and running from June 2026. There is no intention here to skimp on the service. This is a really important service. For the first time we will have a regulated, standardised service for 3,500 children.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes but I would love to know how much we are spending on it now. If the Minister could come back to me with that figure, that would be great.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is around the €20 million mark but I will verify that for the Deputy and revert to her.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would appreciate that because it is important.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to be clear that the figure in the Estimate is a half-year cost.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, that is understood. Thanks.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for being here. In relation to the State-led capital programme, why are children under the age of one not included in it?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just made the point to Deputy Boland that the State is working really hard at this point in time to support families in that first year. I refer to the 26 weeks maternity leave, the additional 16 weeks unpaid leave, the paternity leave of two weeks, the parent's leave of nine weeks for children who are under two and the parental leave of 26 weeks for those who are under 12 or under 16 if they have a disability. Very significant efforts are being made by the State to protect that first early year. At present, we are seeing a particular challenge around the age group that the Deputy has identified in terms of State-led childcare provision. That is not to say, as things evolve and move on, that we will not move to the under-one cohort but significant work is being undertaken by the State.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need to shine a light on this and review it. Baby room facilities for children under one have dropped by 25% in the last five years. While I am hugely supportive of the increases in parent's leave, the increase in maternity benefit introduced in the last budget and the introduction of paternity benefit and extended parent's leave, a lot of women are still not getting the top-up on their maternity benefit or on their parent's leave. The biggest driver of men not taking paternity leave and parent's leave is the financial hit that they would have to take. We need to examine this because the policies need to join up to support parents to be at home in that first year and to give parents more choices. From a financial perspective, many of them are not able to take that additional leave and then when they go looking for childcare, it is not there. We need to take a closer look at this and conduct a review in advance of the next budget. We also need to look at pay-related benefit, like we have done with jobseeker's benefit. I am glad to hear that the Minister is still open to providing facilities for children under one. In Fingal, they have reduced by 35% and that is causing acute anxiety for women who want or need to go back to work in that first year. There are also families who want to be at home but just cannot be.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a commitment in the programme for Government to look at the rates but that is a matter for the Department of Social Protection rather than for my Department. We can only do what is within our gift. I want to be clear about that. We must acknowledge that there are up to 46 weeks available in terms of support for parents, notwithstanding the issues the Deputy raises. We are obliged to move on from that and concentrate on those aged one to three. I am absolutely open to provision for the under ones but do not think it is possible for us to do everything in one go. We are concentrating on the one to threes. There is a clear and identifiable need there in the context of this first experience of State-led childcare. Issues around rates and so on are matters for the Department of Social Protection but I absolutely hear what the Deputy is saying in terms of everybody working off the same-----

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our policies have to add up because they are having an impact from a cost-of-living as well as an equality perspective. I will move on. Will affordability be part of the Department's criteria when choosing locations for the capital investment programme? The Minister mentioned rural and urban locations, areas with low levels of community childcare provision, which is great, and disadvantaged areas. The Department has opted for Dún Laoghaire as the initial choice. I am struck by the fact that in Dún Laoghaire there are high levels of services that are not in core funding. Is affordability part of the Department's decision-making process there?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the first instance, the key consideration is an absence of availability of places as determined by the evidence on the ground. I have always acknowledged that we have both private and community provision and this is to complement that. The first consideration is absolutely going to be where there is a dearth of provision on the ground. That said, this is not an initiative just for urban Ireland. It is an initiative for rural Ireland too. It is an initiative for areas where there is a lack of equality of opportunity and I would like to think that as we develop the next seven services this year, we will see that reflected. However, with the provision of eight services in the first instance, we are not going to be able to tick all boxes. There are some areas where we will have to build and there are some areas that will demand individual solutions, given what is available on the ground. This is not just a 2026 initiative. It is an initiative for the next three to four years of this Government.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that point, I sent proposals and ideas to the Minister on planning. I very much believe that the review of the 2001 planning guidelines can create a viable, effective pipeline of suitable facilities but the guidelines have to be changed in order to do that. The State should not be buying up facilities that are lying empty because they are not viable as childcare facilities. Is there an update on that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge Deputy Currie's work in this area.

I can confirm that I have engaged with the Minister and we have engaged with his Department around the planning guidelines. That will be a fundamental support to what we are trying to achieve here. Regarding 20 places for every 75 houses, that is not at the level it should be. The Deputy and I would be very familiar with facilities that are not built to the spec to which they should be built or available but after a number of years, there is a change of use. I fundamentally believe that local authorities have to take a stronger stance here so that people do not have the opportunity to hold on to it and apply for a change of use. That is a personal view. I have discussed that with the Minister as well. I appreciate that there is a significant body of work involved in updating these guidelines but the Minister is very cognisant of the need. It is an enormous benefit to any housing development to have available early learning and childcare facilities. That is an ongoing piece of work between my Department and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did a lot of research on it so I hope the Minister finds it beneficial in contributing to the work she is doing. I am concerned about the number of sessional services that are leaving the sector and I want to know if the Minister is concerned. One thing that has come up recently involves commercial rates and the fact that these services are getting bills for commercial rates. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that ECCE facilities are exempt from commercial rates for the first three hours but then pay commercial rates on the additional half hour. What they can charge for the half hour is capped because of core funding so while parents may be paying it, we could not say it is "for profit". At the same time, I believe they are being hit by the change in ratios because it goes from a ratio of children to staff of 11:1 to 8:1. These are areas the Minister could look at. I know there is a flat rate that sessional services get for €5,000. I am really conscious of what has been in the newspapers during the past week about the challenges relating to the employment regulation order, ERO, process. I do not know why the Minister would focus on people who are working so hard and earning so little for what they do but that campaign could attract other providers for other reasons, as well as frustrations about core funding. I am asking her whether she can prioritise sessional services in core funding for next year.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to acknowledge in respect of the ECCE services and so on that the birth rate is falling as well.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am talking about sessional services rather than ECCE only and that is where the loss is.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has provided €45 million last year and this year for the ERO, so it has provided €90 million over two years. It is a significant support to workers who deserve it. I am making that point in general and am not getting involved in what is out there. The case is a separate thing. The ECCE ratios are 1:11 for up to three and a half hours. They are not affected. We have sought clarity from Tailte Éireann about rates.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, because it is affecting child minding as well.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a strong divergence of opinion between my Department and Tailte Éireann. I accept that Tailte Éireann is independent of the Minister but I have raised it with him. The opinion held by Tailte Éireann is not the view shared by this Department nor is it the legal view of this Department.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the Minister's intervention.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will go back to State-led facilities because I believe there is confusion. The executive summary states that where a project is being considered without an operator already in place, the Department will seek an operator. The Minister said here this morning that where nobody has stepped in, the State will step in where need and demand exist. I asked a question about areas where there is no existing operator. The Minister has said that in the early phase, it is anticipated that operators will be existing not-for-profit providers and they will have a track record of governance and delivery, which I understand. That would be the easiest way but surely, places with the most need will not have an existing provider. The executive summary says one thing but the reply to the parliamentary question says another. The Minister talks about where nobody has stepped in. That would be my idea of how it would work. The Government would look at places with need where there is no operator and the State would step in. I would like clarification about that.

I have cited Boyle in north Roscommon to the Minister many times. They have done the needs analysis and stated that while the national benchmark is 20 childcare places per 75 households, there are 20 childcare places per 1,043 households in Boyle, urban and rural. The Minister knows that there is severe need in Boyle. I have told her about it many times. I have shared the needs analysis with the unit in the Department. My concern now is that Boyle will miss out if the condition is that it needs an existing not-for-profit provider. Could the Minister clarify that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will be a mixture. It is not just the existing provider because I recognise what the Deputy described. I accept that she has articulated really well in respect of her own case. There will be places where there is no provider. That is the issue. It will be whatever works in an area. Given that this is the first attempt at it, we are happy to try different methods so that eventually, there may be only one going forward. In the initial stages, however, it will be a combination of whatever is appropriate such as the existing provider or the Department purchasing a building and running a competition to appoint a provider but it will be a not-for-profit provider.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. In Boyle, a committee has been established that is composed mainly of mothers and has identified a building that is on the market, which is really welcome. I presume that at this point, Boyle is on the Department's radar. At least, it should be because I have raised it so many times. It is really important for mothers who are literally unable to go back to work because they have no childcare place.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of that, I assume that they have also engaged with the county childcare committee.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, very much so. I go back, as I always do when it comes to Revised Estimates, to the mother and baby homes payment scheme. The special advocate has been clear. She completed a really detailed and good report and very much looked for the immediate, if not urgent, expansion to include those not included in the payments scheme as it is. I cannot understand how we would prefer to hand money back to the Exchequer than open and widen the net to, for example, people who were in these institutions for less than six months. Given the special advocate's very clear words on this, and she has been put in her position for a reason and has been very clear in her report, will the Minister look at widening the net given the money being put in place every year? Probably hundreds of millions have been left unspent at this point. Will the Minister look at that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People have until 2029 to step forward for the current scheme. There have been 7,000 applications so far and €78 million has been paid out. It is envisaged that more will step forward as we move closer to 2029. The terms as to who is eligible have already been set out. A review must take place as well. I will be honest and say much of that is meant to be a technical type of review but a review is meant to start before the end of this year so that is where we stand.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the position. What breaks my heart is that we will have people who are excluded who will die between now and 2029 regardless of people signing up towards the end.

The special advocate has done the report and has been really clear. I think the words she used to those excluded were "urgent expansion". I do not understand how her words and her report could go ignored.

I want to move on to foster carers. There is a commitment in the programme for Government regarding State pensions. Again, an excellent mechanism was put in place - I think it was during Heather Humphreys' time - in terms of family carers. It is working really well and could be copied very quickly for foster carers. There is a commitment in this regard in the programme for Government. In the context of the next four years, when does the Minister think there will be progress in relation to - I have raised this with her many times - foster carers who have given years of their lives to caring for others? At the very least, these people deserve a State pension when they reach the age of 66. They are not getting that at the moment, and certainly not a full one.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy said, that is a commitment in the programme for Government in respect of this matter. It is a priority for the Government. It will be delivered by the Department of Social Protection as opposed to ourselves. It is something that has to be advanced by the Department of Social Protection, but I am fully supportive of it. Without a shadow of a doubt, the greatest resource we have in terms of caring for young people who need it is the foster care system. In our Department, we have sought to work really hard to improve the supports that are being provided to foster carers, whether it is the €400 relating to those who are under 12 years of age or the €425 for those who are over 12. That is an additional amount of almost €4,000 per year.

We have also introduced other elements. Peer-to-peer support is being made available. Regional leads are being put in place to bring more people into the system. An enhanced mileage mechanism has been provided. There have been mixed views on the back to school clothing and footwear allowance from the Department of Social Protection, but that is a positive step forward. We are also giving an additional payment to those who have an initial placement of a child in their care. We are doing all that we can to support foster carers. I make no apologies for saying that we need to do more because they are an incredible resource.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The pension is so important.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The pension would be the icing on the cake. I understand that.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These people either reached 66 years of age last year or they will do so this year. Leaving them without pensions is unacceptable.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to say one other thing in order that it is on the record. The alternative care policy is out at the moment. There is a public consultation process regarding children and young people who were in the care of the State. I invite people to engage with that as well. That will be helpful going forward.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the context of early years, the €200 a month for childcare was committed to heavily during the general election campaign. When we the action plan emerged, I was really disappointed that we will only see the plan for early years in the second phase, which is due to happen sometime between 2027 and 2029. Why is it going to take that long? I presume the quickest and easiest way to reduce costs for parents is through the national childcare scheme. Why would we wait? The commitment is €200 by the end of the Government's term of office. If we are not going to see the plan until 2027, 2028 or 2029, never mind introduce it, what is the position?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a commitment in terms of phase 2 of the plan to the effect that it will be informed by public consultation. That public consultation is taking place now. The plan will be published at the end of this year. The phase 2 plan will also be published at the end of the year. It will start the following year. At the end of this year or start of next year, the plan will be published. It is important-----

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That plan will deal with the €200.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to garner - and we gave a commitment in this regard - the views of everybody in the sector and everybody who is impacted. We are also taking other steps. For example, there is the freeze on fees. The Deputy will also be aware that a maximum fee cap was introduced for those who are availing of the most popular one, namely the 40 to 50 hours. The highest fee there is €295. With the national childcare subsidy now, that is less than €200. We are working toward this. A second one will be introduced in March or April when we are informed and get the returns back.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An issue I have also raised with the Minister previously is the 2,300 places announced in budget 2026. These are to be created and funded in the interests of expanding and extending community centres and schools. Is that off the table?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are looking at everything. The Deputy referenced schools. We envisage it as part of the bigger plan. Where a new school is being built, it would be my view that an early years childcare facility should also be provided on the same campus. We need to think outside the box. It is the same as the argument I have always made to the effect that where housing and schools are built, early years provision is also needed. This is advantageous for schools because these facilities act as pipelines for schools. However, it is also an accommodation for parents and families.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir agus roimh an Aire. On Tusla, I am going to use the wrong term, but its representatives have spoken about the way it has restructured itself and how this might be more useful from a triaging point of view or whatever. The last time representatives from Tusla appeared before the committee, Mr. Gerry Hone spoke about 1,728 social workers. I think the overall number is 1,754 when agency workers are included. He also stated that Tusla will need a further 300 social workers in the context of its being able to deliver. I am not quite sure whether this was public or if he said it to me privately, but there are about 1,422 social care workers and a further 100 are needed. What is being done to address this matter? I understand the difficulties involved for social workers in dealing with people who are in various circumstances and situations.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that. As the Deputy stated, it is not unique to Tusla. There are certain disciplines across the country where there is a shortage, including speech and language, physiotherapy, social work and so on.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that is what Tusla thinks it needs.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need them to be qualified when they come on stream. A number of initiatives are being undertaken. For example, an apprenticeship scheme is being run. Tusla has 100 people going through that social work apprenticeship scheme every year. There is also the tertiary scheme that is under way between Cork ETB and UCC. It is envisaged that those two mechanisms alone will allow for a 20% increase in the number of social workers coming on stream. The apprenticeship model is one that I particularly want to highlight. All of the evidence would tell us that where people work within a system, an agency or whatever, they are most likely to remain there. I acknowledge Tusla's foresight in accommodating up to 100 a year in that process. It has the potential to garner big benefits for Tusla going forward.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everyone can buy into the apprenticeship model. It is not only about retaining people afterward; it is also about getting them on stream very quickly. I get that. The cases that are being dealt with are incredibly complex. Most people would need some element of conditioning. In fairness, the big thing that Tusla has spoken about is the more complex cases that it is dealing with.

We know the headline issues that this committee has had to deal with. The Child Care (Amendment) Act is in operation. It is making sure that everything that comes out of the reports is resourced and that the recommendations are followed through on. Beyond that, I am still of the opinion - the Minister can come back on this later - that in the context of the request they have for a greater number of social workers and social care workers, we should ensure that, at the very least, a plan is put in place to ensure that these positions are sanctioned. If they are not sanctioned, it will not matter how many people we train because we will not be able to hire anyone.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge that. The first step is to have them come on stream. External HR has an increased budget this year to facilitate these types of schemes. The social care apprenticeship is also important. Tusla's overall budget this year has increased by 15%. This is a significant and important uplift for Tusla in light of the work it is doing. A total of €1.37 billion is being made available to it. I have no doubt that the demand here will grow year on year. A 15% increase is testament to Government's acknowledgement of the work that Tusla does, and in particular the work it does to support often the most vulnerable in society. I am happy to revert to the Deputy specifically about social work. I think the model of apprenticeship is the one that will pay the most dividends. Almost 100 going through each year is significant. I am happy to engage with the Deputy on the matter.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is all right. Could the Minister come back to me on it? If Tusla does not have the numbers, that means it will be under pressure.

We realise the particular issues that we are dealing with. People come to our constituency offices about them. We cannot get away from the complexities and difficulties involved. The other issue that Mr. Hone raised is that we are short 500 foster carers. I would follow up on what Deputy Kerrane said about the need to address pensions and other matters in order to get as many people involved as possible. Obviously, we need the right people. Foster carers provide a service for which you could not commend them highly enough. We need that to happen.

Will the Minister provide an update on the number of reports that are being compiled? We have seen some of the recommendations in the report relating to the death of Kyran Durnin. Some others are ongoing. Has the Minister any notion of the timeline for when they will be completed? At that point, we would see all the recommendations in play. I accept that work on legislation in this regard is being done at the moment.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many of these cases are live. Garda investigations or legal cases-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is in the public domain today.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not comment directly on them. I will make the general point that where recommendations have been published, they will be implemented on a cross-departmental basis. I assure the Deputy that they are well in train. Prior to many of them being published, recommendations were already being put in place.

In the context of any review, the first step would be an internal review by Tusla. That would then go to the national review panel. Subject to the advice of the Attorney General, whatever elements that could be published would be published. I assure the Deputy that any recommendations that are made or that come out of any of these reviews will 100% be implemented. That is not just a consideration for Tusla but can be a consideration for other Departments too.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can the Minister provide a timeline for when she thinks we will finish these reports and see the recommendations come into play? What is being done from the point of view-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stick to the Estimates, if possible.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What can we do to deliver appropriate accommodation, particularly in light of the issues that have existed with certain people who have been put in less than perfect special arrangements? What is being done to avoid that in the future?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a capital allocation in the budget to improve the availability of residential and step-down places. That is hugely important. We are looking at an additional 30 beds being provided in residential facilities. There is no doubt that this will always be a challenge. Funding has been put in place. The capital budget for Tusla is €35 million, which is a 100% increase on the previous allocation. We very much recognise the need to provide those extra places and that is reflected in the capital funding.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the fact that Dundalk Counselling Service and Omeath got family resource centres, but there would be a considerable number of families at the Redeemer centre who would work closely with the house in Cox's. We had Clodagh O'Mahony before the joint committee. There are huge levels of deprivation and particular issues with trauma in north Dundalk. We need to see some sort of solution for the people there. There may be a need for further staff and funding. I know they are working with Tusla at the moment. There is unease in respect of this matter.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that the Deputy name-checked two that were successful. It is important that the area did well in that regard. There was initially funding for five. In the budget, I secured funding for ten. It is my ambition over the next number of budgets to secure funding that will allow us to grow the family resource centre network. I am a huge admirer of these centres. They cover so much ground on so many different levels. I am also conscious that there are places which are providing services that are family resource centres in everything but name. We will be doing all we can to provide sufficient funding, depending on budget negotiations and everything else, to bring more into the network.

On the specific matter the Deputy raised, Tusla is engaging. I refer to circumstances where a place does not have the title of being a family resource centre but where it is providing services. If there are specific examples the Deputy wants to raise with me, I will be happy to talk with him afterwards about them. Tusla is doing a great deal of work on the ground with the family resource centres and others in the network that are providing important stability.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Connolly. I apologise for getting the order mixed up.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is fine. I was attending the committee meeting next door as well. That is why I missed part of this meeting.

A significant departure regarding the operation of the guardian ad litem service is proposed to be implemented over the coming year. There is a significant budget increase for the services. It is difficult to compare. I do not have a figure for what might have been spent on that service under the old model, but it seems that there has been a significant increase in expenditure. Despite that increase, the briefing note indicates that there might be some uncertainty or concern around potential costs of retention of legal services for the service. How are we going to cope with that? How are legal services going to be retained in respect of the new service?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the first instance, there is a provision of €11.2 million in the budget, which is a half-year provision, because the new service will be up and running in June or July. This is important because, for the first time, it will be a regulated, standardised service for 3,500 young people. Different systems can operate in different parts of the country. That lack of consistency is not good.

Specifically on legal services, at all times, legal advice will be available to guardians ad litem. There is a dedicated unit within the office. I stand open to correction, but I think it will have eight staff to provide legal advice at all times. There is also a mechanism whereby if a case is particularly complex or challenging, legal representation can be provided too. We need to be clear that guardians ad litem are expert witnesses in court settings. There is enormous potential to deliver a system that is regulated and standardised and that represents the 3,500 children who need to be represented. The existing guardians ad litem have the opportunity to remain in the process. More than 44 of them have indicated that they would like to be part of the system.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the system retain a full-time legal section?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Advice will be available through a legal element of the office.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On pay in the childcare sector, everyone recognises that this is an area in respect of which employees could benefit from a pay increase.

Unfortunately it is a low-paid sector. There was an increase in pay last year but I see from the figures that only benefited 67% of employees. Why did it only benefit 67% of employees?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The others were on a particular pay scale. This was to benefit those who were on the very lowest pay scale and to bring them up. I know this is an area the Deputy is particularly interested in. It is so important we have the staff in the sector doing the work. Early years is pivotal to the development of a child and we need to have the right people in place and for them to be recompensed for the work they do. To facilitate that, the Government has put €45 million on the table to support it and it put another €45 million the previous year so that is €90 million over two years. It is a huge underpinning by the Government to services where it is not the employer.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very welcome. One concern you hear from childcare providers is that many of the staff take up the opportunity to become special needs assistants in primary schools. That offers greater job security and possibly increased salary as well. Therefore I welcome that the Minister is putting that level of resource into pay in that sector. It is important that we maintain that if we can into the future.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a positive note, there has been a more than 9% increase in the staff in this area in the past year. That is important notwithstanding that I hear what the Deputy is saying about staff moving to other sectors.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the capital investment in State-owned childcare facilities, I do not share the inferences of my colleague who spoke earlier that there was anything lacking in terms of the transparency around the development of these facilities and the locations where they would be developed. It is a new departure for the State and a very welcome one. Something like that will be refined as time goes on. However, I will take the opportunity to discuss a part of my own constituency where there is a dearth of such services although I have engaged with the Minister previously about this. This is the west Connemara area around the town of Clifden where there is only one childcare provider. It is a playschool service in the area. It is very anxious to participate in such a scheme or initiative. However, a concern I have detected from the Minister’s commentary this morning is that the initial phase will only be for the purchase of buildings rather than build. When can we see the scheme evolving to build facilities?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The only reason the first stage is around buildings that are available is because it is the quickest and fastest delivery in the early stages but we are 100% committed. It is there. We are also looking at the potential to build but that is likely to come in 2027. In 2026 it will be eight identified buildings. Notwithstanding that, the work to identify where building might take place also begins in 2026. Again, it is engagement with the local city and county childcare committees and progressing from there on to the Department.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One area I think the State has not sufficiently resourced is the whole development of play spaces. I felt this strongly when I was a member of the local authority. The local authority could only take one area where it could apply for funding to develop a play facility. In a county the size of Galway, it is very hard to pick one community which you would preference for the development of a play facility. What happens is it recourses then to the community itself to fundraise and perhaps even locate a site to develop a play facility. These facilities are really important. They are good for the social interaction of children and they are good for their moral and physical well-being as well. We should look at investing more. The figure last year between dormant accounts money and the Minister’s Department was €1 million. I detect that from the Department alone this year it will be €1 million. Will there be another €500,000 from dormant accounts as well? That is an increase that is welcome but we should look further at increasing such supports. When you divide the €500,000 between all the local authorities I think the grant available was less than €20,000. One of the challenges communities meet when they are developing them themselves is it is not just the development but the continued maintenance, management and insurance costs. Perhaps we should look at something like the sports capital fund whereby, if communities are going to continue to do this, we would provide increased resources for communities to come forward if they have plans and a site, and we would help fund the capital side of the development of play spaces.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I absolutely agree on the importance of play in the first instance and that children would have access to it. It is an equality of access when it is a public space. The Deputy is correct - the baseline figure from our own Department this year is being doubled from €500,000 to €1 million. There is also an additional €200,000 which has been made available specifically for services for teenagers. Again, last year there was a specific fund in place that was dedicated to teenage spaces where the teenagers themselves had to be consulted and part of the application process. That is really important. There is no point in everyone else telling them where to go, when they should go there and all that. They should have a say in it. There is that and the €500,000 that came through dormant accounts. That is our view and that we would have more funding available. Over the coming years, if at all possible, depending on the budgets, we should grow it even further.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask two quick questions. Is the capital funding the Minister mentioned for Tusla for the development of Oberstown? Is that in its remit?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a variety of different developments. Oberstown has a significant increase in its funding this year as well which will allow for it to develop additional accommodation. For example, it will bring on stream four additional beds this year. I think two of them will be on stream by March. There are two other elements to it. One is a restructuring of accommodation there, which will increase accommodation. The third element is looking at newer opportunities to put new accommodation in there.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do we know when the first annual report of the implementation of the national Traveller and Roma integration strategy will be published?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have a date to hand. I can come back to the Deputy on that unless one of the officials here has it. There we are – it is quarter 2.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have a specific month but I will come back to the Deputy.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta. Now it falls to me. I will stay with Tusla and the capital funding. Earlier, the Minister referenced step-down beds – we could also call them step-up. I do not want to go into any cases that were talked about earlier but we know when we have had engagement in the committee that there is a need for a step up before special care or a step down when you are leaving special care. I know from frank conversations, when some children turn 18 you are looking at an avenue into the legal system so that step down is urgent. Does the Minister have a sense of timelines around that?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we could do it yesterday I would do it yesterday, if the Cathaoirleach knows what I mean. It is of extreme urgency. There is €3.5 million allocated specifically for it. It is hugely important because it is also a builder of confidence, as it were.

The beds are very important but there are also therapeutic supports being put in place, which is also very important. We are looking at 30 additional residential beds. Specifically on step down we hope three additional beds will be available by the end of the year but to build more into-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the process or policy of step down already established?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. And to advance step down so there is bridge building, as the Cathaoirleach identified the need there.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Tusla was at the committee, it spoke of the importance of its own therapists. At the moment they are doing assessments and signposting but not yet doing the therapies. If we were able to have a magic wand similar to the in-school therapists that are being launched with the Department that would be so important for Tusla to have access to that. We know more and more it is engaging with people with disabilities and mental health challenges. To have access to its own therapists would be important.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Cathaoirleach is 100% correct on that. There is an allocation in the budget of around €1.3 million for enhanced multidisciplinary therapeutic services or whatever for children or young people who might be on the edge or on the margins, whatever the phrase, of special care and also transitioning from the special care environment.

We should never underestimate the impact of positive intervention like therapeutic care.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. Moving to the State-led childcare system, I do not want to spend too long on it because I know we are going to have a session on it.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have nothing left to say when we come in to do that. I will consider it done after this.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a welcome initiative. It is great. Obviously, I would love if the first one had been in Mayo but well done to Dún Laoghaire. Where are we in terms of boxing clever with this? I am thinking of a facility in Vale in the Czech Republic where the county council or whatever the local authority is called there builds and furnishes it and it is ready to go. With the facilities we buy and will eventually build, will we try to box clever with those in terms of templates? Will we provide them with resources and materials? As the Minister said, there is the competition for people to run them. Will we make them turnkey-ready for someone to come in and take over?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are looking at all models. The Chair referred to local authorities owning the building-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They own everything, including the furniture, the-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am giving an example at home where the local authority might own the building or whatever. We can step in there and fit out the building and then we can run the competition for the not-for-profit provider to come on stream. Alternatively, the Department buys the building, fits it out and runs a competition or there is an existing building that can be used. In these early stages, we are prepared to look at every type of model. We may ultimately settle on one model, but at the moment we are very happy to look at any type of model. For some people, it might just be the requirement to fit out the building and we step in and do that.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When we move on to greenfield sites or brownfield sites, we see in the Department of education the delays that can happen in the various phases. From her time in that Department, the Minister knows how slow it can be. It would be great if we had ready-made plans that could shorten those times.

The Minister said there is huge interest in the county childcare committees. Have they all engaged?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the work the county childcare committees do on the ground. This is another layer of ask being put upon them. Meetings have been held with them and briefings have been sent to them.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With all of them?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. They all been brought in to inform them of how we envisage the State-led model working and the role that they might play in facilitating or being the conduit from a local point of view. They have all been invited to meetings and the briefs have been sent to them.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will move on to the building regulations Deputy Currie spoke about as regards Dublin. In cities and urban areas, the situation is slightly different from the situation in rural areas because often in urban areas crèches have been built that are not fit for purpose. They are nearly houses that are meant to be crèches. In rural areas, we do not have that problem because we do not have 75 units being built in any one time. When we are looking at the level of need, can we also take that into account? When I think of my home town, groups of houses might be built in different areas, amounting to well over 75 in total, but because of the building regulations, the developers do not have to build a crèche if they are only building 30 houses, say. The local authority will probably have to intervene in these cases when we can see that there has been a cumulative total of 75 houses built in an area, but no crèche.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Cathaoirleach is right. It is almost like a pooling of the developments and that will have to be looked at. Quite honestly, I do not feel that 20 is the right figure, for the simple reason that 20 for most providers is not a viable business. It also does not meet a need in an area either. There is a need for change there but there is also a need for everybody to step up, including local authorities. I appreciate that it is not an issue in the Cathaoirleach's area, but where something is not built to the necessary specification, local authorities should oblige by giving a change of use. My Department needs to work with the Department of housing, given that all of this is within that Department's remit, to have guidelines that are stronger in terms of enforcement and meeting the need that is on the ground. We need to look specifically at the issue the Cathaoirleach raised. There could be three separate developments, not too far from one another, where one sufficient childcare service could meet the needs of all three.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely, when we are looking at those building regulations we will have to start adopting separate policies for urban versus rural.

To address attendance rules in early learning settings that are creating challenges, we have a lot of people in emergency accommodation at the moment, families with very sick children who have to attend hospital appointments and so on. I know the simplify and support action plan was launched recently, and this will reduce administration and simplify the regulatory requirements. Are there any plans to review the attendance rules for the national childcare scheme to ensure that providers are not being impacted financially by children who are not meeting those attendance rules?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This issue is raised with me quite often. The requirement is one in every eight weeks but, notwithstanding that, an evaluation of the scheme is under way, to see what scope there might be to improve it where it needs to be improved and to keep whatever needs to be kept. We will see how this review evolves. If people are availing of the scheme and the funding is being paid, it is important that there is balance.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will move on to the family resource centres. I also welcome the announcement that Erris got a new family resource centre and I hope to visit it tomorrow. It is very exciting. The minimum core funding has been increased from €160,000 to €180,000. The Westport family resource centre is close by. I know the centre is desperate for a new building and it needs more funding. How many of the existing family resource centres have availed of the increase and what is the plan going forward? I know there is only a certain amount of money and everyone wants new resource centres and more funding but is it open to all of them?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The baseline for all of the family resource centres was €160,000 and we secured an additional €20,000 in the budget, so the baseline for all of the is now €180,000.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everybody jumped at it straight away.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, and that is just a baseline. Many family resource centres are drawing down funding from other streams that they are supporting through their family resource centre. Their actual outturn could be considerably more than that, but for those that are dependent on just that funding, the baseline is €180,000 for all of them.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are all in agreement that they are doing amazing work. I know it can be like the loaves and the fishes with the funding. In Westport, as I said, the centres is trying to find a building that is fit for purpose. Staff all over the town leaning on people's charity for workshops and different things but doing great work. I will not go over my time as Chair. We have time for a second round, and will do five minutes per member. I will stick with the speaking rota, so first up is Deputy Emer Currie.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When the State programme was launched, we got a lot of questions. One of the questions I had from existing providers I believe I know the answer to, but I just want the Minister to confirm it publicly. I understand providers will not have an opportunity to sell their childcare facilities to the State.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One hundred percent, no.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that this is all about new supply-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and if the State was going to buy existing services, that would not help supply. Will the Minister confirm this so that there is no confusion about it?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The model here is about additionality of supply. It is not intended to buy private operations. It is to provide for where there is an absence of delivery, for whatever reason, and that is the entirety of its aim. I want to reassure the private providers that I see this as an addition to the excellent service they provide across the country. This is complementing their service. Our purpose is to provide additional places where those places are available. There are also schemes such as the building blocks scheme for the providers. If they want to provide additional places in a particular area, I ask them to become involved in the building block side of things. Our purpose is only to provide additional places.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for that answer.

I do not know what was covered when I was out. I was in another committee meeting. I am really worried about the number of childminders who are registering. It is not just a rural issue. It is also an urban issue. A lot of parents rely on childminders. My constituents are paying a lot of money per hour to childminders. They really need the national childcare scheme subsidies. We want to keep childminders in the sector. What are the Minister's plans regarding the review that has been committed to? That will be really important before the 2027 deadline.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree wholeheartedly with the Deputy. The role of childminders is enormously important. They are very strong contributors to the early learning and childcare sector. I want to keep them in the sector and I acknowledge the work they do. The review will start in 2026. That is the commitment we gave.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister know when in 2026 it will start?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I cannot say it will be 20 February or anything like that but I can say it will be done in 2026. Just to put it out there, in the interim, the childminding development fund is available. That allows up to €1,000 to be drawn down by any childminder, whether registered or unregistered. That is out there. I want the maximum number possible to engage in the registration process. We have a pilot programme on making core funding available to them. That would be a great support. The review will take place. We are now in February. It will take place this year.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister have an update on what happened with the Garda vetting, the changes that were made and the impact it is having on childcare services?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All childcare services are subject to Garda vetting.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking about the additional requirements and the increased strictness in respect of vetting for childcare. Was that a factor in there being question marks over the opening of those 17 childcare facilities?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that was a question of re-registering. With hand on heart, I can say the vast majority of services went about their re-registration in time. They were given significant notification that this was a requirement and that they would have to do it. I understand that individual services can have particular reasons. Something might have happened or whatever. However, in a small number of instances, services did not register in time. In fact, some began the registration process in January when it had to be completed within that month. In saying that, I am mindful that issues may have arisen for individual services. However, the vast majority engaged on time and everything was done and processed on time.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Garda vetting was not part of that.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It should not have been, no.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough. I thank the Minister for the clarity.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a couple of questions I did not get a chance to ask earlier. In relation to the ten family resource centres that have been included, of course, the inclusion of any family resource centre in the forum and in the funding is to be welcomed. Could we get further information from the Minister or from Tusla on the criteria used? North West Stop's application was successful. That is really welcome. It provides a counselling service and does an awful lot of work in the area of mental health, primarily in the north west but also in the west. It is to be commended and I welcome the funding for it. However, I have raised the issue of the service in Ballinasloe many times. I am concerned that Ballinasloe's family resource centre is not included in the funding. It is the most deprived urban centre in the entire State. I was surprised to hear that having seen some of the areas in inner-city Dublin. That lack of inclusion rings alarm bells for me as to how areas are selected. I just wanted to make that point. I know the Minister is aware of it. I have raised it before. If we could get the criteria, it would be helpful.

I have raised the issue of the childminding regulations with the Minister many times. I really hope we will see the review as early in the year as possible because childminders are making their minds up. There has been misinformation in relation to some of the regulations. I am concerned at how it is being communicated. I appreciate that the county childcare committees have a childminding person. That is great but I am concerned that childminders may not be going to that person or engaging with the CCCs, perhaps because they think the regulations are something they are not. I have concerns about some of the regulations and have spoken to the Minister about them. There is a huge job of work to be done in relation to the communication.

I will give just one example. When you read the regulation regarding an emergency contact, it looks like you need someone sitting at a windowsill ready to come in at all times. In reality, it is about having someone who will come into the home, take the contact number and ring the child's mother, auntie, brother or whoever it may be. That person might be there for ten minutes or two hours. The childminder is gone, perhaps because her mother has been rushed to hospital or something like that. From reading the regulation, you would not think that is what is required. There is a job of work to be done there if childminders are not going to the CCC because of fear, worry or misinformation. I ask the Minister to look at that.

On our early years educators, there is a concerning turnover of staff. In most years, the average turnover among early years educators is 20% to 25%. Will the Minister look at the cost of taking on the pay of early years educators across all grades? I know this was done on an emergency basis during the Covid pandemic so I presume figures based on today's rates could be got in some way, shape or form. Is that something the Minister's Department would look at? I cannot see any downside to it other than there would obviously be a large cost involved. I imagine that cost is not far off the amount being expended on core funding at the moment. Is that something the Minister would look at? I think it would help with capacity, reopening rooms, retaining staff, recruitment and bringing people through the education avenue that is there. It is the biggest thing we could do to make a difference in keeping our educators and having them qualified. Is it something the Minister would look at? If it is brought up as part of the consultation, as I imagine it will be, could someone in the Department do some homework as to what it would cost?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the FRCs, it depends on how the budget goes, but I am hopeful that there will be funding in the budget to bring in a number of additional FRCs next year. I cannot be definite on that because it depends on the budget but it is my absolute hope. There will be a whole new process.

In terms of the childminding review, the Deputy raised really excellent points regarding childminders and the possible lack of understanding of some elements of the regulations. She very clearly identified that there is a designated person within the city and county childcare committees. We really urge people to engage with them directly. On general communication, a new communication plan is being worked on. That will come on stream. There are four childminders on the committee or subcommittee overseeing that process. Based on their on-the-ground experience, they will advise on the issues that really need to be identified, attacked and nailed in the communication process. I will look at everything that comes out of the consultation process, including that pay element the Deputy has spoken about.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to ask the Minister about Equal Start and the initiatives within it. It is obviously the great equaliser for our most disadvantaged. One scheme, Early Talk Boost, appears to operate across most counties in the country. I know there was some more recruitment in September. A lot of childcare and children's issues are raised with my constituency office but no one has ever mentioned this scheme to me. I do not believe it is operating in Meath. It seems very positive. The parents are involved in workshops and that kind of thing.

Is it something the Minister is looking to expand?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge Deputy Dempsey's great work in the area of early years and childcare, and her consistent advocacy in this space. I am a big fan of Early Talk Boost. It is really to support children and young people who have delayed speech. It is open to all who are in Equal Start, so if there is an Equal Start initiative in the area, that facility is open to them as well. It is to provide support for children who have delayed speech and is like an early intervention for that. I think it is a really good one. I take on board what the Deputy said about people not knowing about the opportunity. As Deputy Kerrane said, perhaps we need to push that a bit more. Equal Start has enormous potential. More than €22 million has been put aside in the budget for Equal Start. There are approximately 820 settings that will benefit from Equal Start in 2026, including through additional staffing hours.

The Bia Blasta programme is very important. It is a very nutritious programme, with food being provided in these settings. Family link workers are provided in the 17 Tusla settings. We are also looking at rolling out a new title - a family and community partnership role - to work with families and draw them into the system, provide supports and live up to the name of Equal Start by providing equal opportunity. Some 374 services are availing of Bia Blasta. It is highly nutritious. It is overseen by a nutritionist or dietitian, or whatever the word might be - it is an expert professional in that area. I have made visits and seen how the children are involved in the preparation. They identify what is good for them to eat and so on, so it also has an educational element.

With regard to Early Talk Boost, I am happy to see if we can do more on the promotional side of that.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was going to talk next about Bia Blasta and ask that more be done with regard to children learning how to prepare food. We are doing a lot of work on this under the hot school meals programme, which comes under the Department of Social Protection. We see the kids in our constituency offices, and we understand that this is how people are living. When we go into a school, we can see that the children do not know how to sit together and have a meal, or how to interact, so it is important that we are doing this in our education settings. We met the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Moynihan, yesterday to discuss special education. He was talking about polytunnels and that kind of thing being done in special schools. The more we can do, the more we can expand that scheme. Potentially, the hot school meals programme can learn from Bia Blasta. I know there was no nutritionist there at the beginning of the hot school meals programme, but it has improved significantly since then.

The Minister has already answered all of my questions, but I would ask her to comment.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree that there is always scope to do more in this space. I have been really impressed by the children and their appreciation of this. I have seen them organise their food. They have their fruit - apples, grapes and so on - and whatever else they are having alongside that. It is vital in this instance because these are the early years. The earlier we can educate them, the better. As its name suggests, Bia Blasta is tasty, nutritional food. We will do all we can to make progress in that space.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will continue from there. Funding is being provided to maintain and grow family support services across the board. The Minister spoke about Equal Start and everything else. In fairness, Tusla would speak about the intervention piece. I think we all accept that the need is great, and there is a need to do more. That is sometimes done through third parties. It is about ensuring that we get to a point where we can offer a substantial service. It is everything from screening right through so that we can catch a circumstance early. There are some very good programmes that deal with families, nearly before the child is born, and they get a wraparound service. If we can get in as early as possible, those who need supports will get the supports, so long as we have the resources that are required.

We have had several people before the committee who have operated with children of every age, from the young right through to teenagers. They said that, at times, they were dealing with four or five generations. Therefore, for all the good work that is done, there is an element of failure. It needs analysis to make sure that we ask the questions and get the answers.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is right. We need to look at all avenues. It is not one single thing or one single support that will solve the issues that are out there. For example, a current scheme is the parent and toddler support, where €1,000 is made available to a newly starting group for parent and toddler interaction or group interaction with young parents, mothers, dads or whatever the case may be. We have made more than €350,000 available this year. Groups can draw down €1,000 if it is a new group. If it is part of a wider set-up, an FRC or something like that, it would be approximately €800 that it can draw down. If it wants to meet once a week or every second week, 50% of that can be used to rent a room, for insurance or whatever the case may be. It is an opportunity for young parents to come together, and also a space for their toddlers. I always feel that people learn more from one another.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Group dynamics can be brilliant, and they create a support structure naturally.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Exactly. It is peer support. This is a small grant in the grand scheme of things, but it is a great mechanism in a local area, whether rural or urban.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a question of making sure there are enough entities that can actually apply for it.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Exactly. That would be one. The family resource centre is another resource for families. There is also the Equal Start programme. Even for things like play and recreation, it is about having facilities where parents can go with their child. The idea is to have a variety of parental supports out there at many different levels.

I would push the parent and toddler scheme. Some parts of the country are fantastic at drawing it down and others are not. Maybe there is another communication element to that.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It sounds like a very good scheme.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would draw attention to the My Little Library initiative, since books are my own thing. The My Little Library initiative is fantastic. It is where children get a little parcel of books from their local library. A big deal is made out of it, and from the earliest point, they have books to read at home. We have seen a 35% increase in library membership because of the fact they have to come into the library to get this little bag of free books.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is like a drug dealer. The first one is free.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You said that. I did not. I am not even commenting on that one, Deputy.

Books are wonderful.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree. It is brilliant that they can introduce a kid and a family to that. It goes without saying. It is a question of the follow-up from there. It is that wider piece.

The Minister spoke about dealing with the Minister for justice from the point of view of ensuring that we have a catch-all for those who become engaged in crime, or are on the fringes of crime, so we can pull them back.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. If I have learned anything in this role, it is that the responsibility never lies with one Department but across a number of Departments. It is the same within society. It is a matter of all the different groups and agencies singing off the same hymn sheet, as it were.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

More, bigger, better, faster.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the first time in this committee that drug dealers have been mentioned. I did not expect it to be in connection with My Little Library, but there we go.

I have three questions and, hopefully, I will get them dealt with within the time. With regard to legislative matters, from the committee’s engagement during the pre-legislative scrutiny process, and also from the different organisations that have been in contact with us, we know there are several deadlines for the transposition of EU directives, including the EU pay transparency directive and the EU directive on standards for equality bodies, into national law.

Given the marginal increase in the Revised Estimate for 2026 compared with the Supplementary Estimate for 2025, and a decrease in the allocation compared with the 2025 Revised and Further Revised Estimate, are the allocation and resources assigned to legislative matters sufficient to ensure that the directives are transposed into Irish national law by the relevant-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. We are absolutely confident that they are.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In a similar vein, IHREC has an increase in funding for administrative pay and non-pay, but a decrease in stable expenditure in other areas. It will be expected to take on a big role in terms of the EU directive for equality bodies, but I see its training and development funding has gone down by so much. Will it be sufficiently resourced for that new task it is expected to do?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am confident it is. I met with IHREC recently. I acknowledge the work it does. It is quite a breadth of work and I acknowledge the dedication and expertise it brings to it. We are confident that what has been provided to it will meet its needs. As the Cathaoirleach said, in the main, there is an increase in funding.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are confident on deadlines and resources.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Confidence is where it is all at; there you go.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move forward with that. My last question is on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC. I attended a fantastic event a couple of months ago run by the ombudsman. It was a huge engagement with children. There was also a side part, where the scouts or different groups had their mentors with them on the day, with different break-out sessions. A group was over from Scotland. The convention is fully incorporated in Scotland and the benefits of that were talked about. Is any consideration being given to incorporating this convention into Irish legislation? Does the current provision under this subhead have sufficient resources to examine this?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will make one very quick point on the participation of children. That unit rests within the Department of children. It is a unit that is facilitating, right across government and different agencies, to ensure that young people are engaged in policymaking and policy formation. For example, I recently attended the United Kingdom and Ireland young persons' forum. Again, that was all facilitated through the Department to ensure the voice of the child is at the heart of everything. On incorporation, it is my understanding that is generally not done in Ireland, but we are about to publish the UNCRC legislative review.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those were very positive answers to my last three questions. I will finish on the right to play. So much is being done but, as I was when the Minister was here last time, I am very concerned about children in emergency accommodation and IPAS centres. We are focused on public spaces but we have heard, especially in the child poverty module of this committee, of the importance of a play strategy. Where are we on that? I am especially thinking about the children who are in emergency accommodation or IPAS centres. Are they being considered in a play strategy? Are there timelines for a national play strategy?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a section in the Book of Estimates that speaks to the funding of play and all of that. We have increased funding for general play under subhead B6. Ukraine policy and what funding is being made available there is under subhead B10. Between the Bs, Cs and Ds, I could be at it forever, with all the different subheads.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When it is the loaves and the fishes in terms of resources for emergency accommodation, we know that play is not a top priority. We have to be careful of that going forward to ensure those children are getting sufficient toys in centres where they do not have access to them.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is funded through the city and county childcare committees. That is how the stream of funding is provided for, but there is obviously a recognition of the importance of it.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the members who were here until midnight last night but gave full attendance to the committee this morning. That has to be commended. I thank the Minister and all her officials for attending and for addressing the committee's questions and observations so comprehensively. To continue with the thanks, I also thank our secretariat, who prepared a very comprehensive briefing for us and are working under a lot of pressure behind the scenes to get a lot of things done.

That completes the select committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates for 2026 in respect of Vote 40 - Children, Disability and Equality, and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. In accordance with Standing Orders, messages to this effect will be sent the Clerk of the Dáil. Is that agreed? Agreed.