Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 January 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
High-Performance Athlete Welfare and Safeguarding: Discussion
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have received apologies from Senator Malcolm Noonan. Senator Garret Kelleher, who is very welcome, is attending in place of Senator Garret Ahearn.
Today's meeting has been convened to consider matters relating to high-performance athlete welfare and safeguarding. The joint committee is empowered to consider legislation, policy, governance, expenditure and administration at the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport or a State body for which that Department is responsible. Sport Ireland is such a State body.
The committee may also consider a report on the performance of a non-State body in relation to an agreement for the provision of services that it has entered into with any such State body. I hold in my hand such a memorandum of understanding, MOU.
The committee looks forward to a collaborative engagement as we consider this very important topic. I welcome the following witnesses. From Sport Ireland, Dr. Úna May, CEO, Mr. Paul McDermott, director for high-performance and national governing bodies, Ms Helen McHugh, director of ethics and integrity in sport, and Mr. John Donnelly, culture adviser. From the Federation of Irish Sport, Ms Mary O'Connor. From Rowing Ireland, with some late changes, Mr. Barry McWilliams, chair of the board, Ms Jane Williams, president, and Mr. Niall O'Carroll, head of high performance.
The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver opening statements, which will be limited to five minutes each. The statements will be followed by questions from members. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we move to today's discussion, I would like to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I remind members that while the committee has received correspondence from and concerning individuals and other organisations in advance of this engagement regarding some of the items that have been flagged for discussion, the names of individuals and identifiable entities and any other personal information should not be discussed publicly in today's session.
This is unprecedented, but before I ask the three speakers to make their statements, I just want to say a couple of things. I have been around these Houses quite a long time and I have never had so many issues come up before a meeting in that time. It has been unprecedented for me not just as Chair of this committee but even as somebody who has been here for 19 or 20 years. I remind everybody here and publicly that, in fairness to the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, he said in September, in relation to the FAI and any sporting body in receipt of taxpayers' funds, that their attendance was expected at this or any committee and that it was not an option to not attend. I repeat that. It is not an option. I would have presumed that NGOs and all sporting bodies - indeed, all bodies under the ministerial area of responsibility - would have heard that loud and clear, and I support the Minister on it.
The past few weeks, in relation to this topic, have been extraordinary, not just for me but also for a number of other members. There has been a huge amount of unsolicited correspondence and so on. There has obviously been an awful lot of media coverage of this. It is obvious that, as committee members and as Members of the Oireachtas, we all read that coverage. Obviously, as a committee, we will take our hearings independently. I just need to say that.
Yesterday, we received correspondence from Rowing Ireland via its solicitor basically making some queries about the invitation and the process. We often get queries but, to be honest, we rarely ever get them 24 hours before a meeting in such a manner. The committee spent a bit of time on this yesterday and we responded yesterday evening. Then, there was unsolicited phone contact from the CEO of Rowing Ireland to a member of this committee. I will get back to that. There was an email this morning from the solicitors representing Rowing Ireland to state that the CEO would not be in attendance and that the high-performance coach for lightweight teams would not be in attendance. The CEO not attending is obviously at a different level in that the CEO was on notice for some time. The other person was not on the same notice, to be fair. The committee emailed back to say that obviously this was disappointing - , in my view, it was unprecedented - coming at the very last minute. Subsequently, the clerk to the committee received a phone call at approximately 10.25 a.m. from the CEO, which we will not go into. Subsequent to that again, there was an email from the CEO to me and the Leas-Chathaoirleach at 10.25 a.m., which we will not go into either. Then, shortly before this meeting commenced, we received an email from Rowing Ireland to say that it was bringing its solicitor to the meeting, not as a witness but as somebody in the audience, which is fine. We have often had situations like that; it is just that to send an email just beforehand was - I had not seen that before. Solicitors often come in with organisations. That is not the issue. Furthermore, the statement from Rowing Ireland was received literally just shortly before this meeting commenced, which means that there was not much time for it to be considered.
I wanted to put all that on the public record because I thought it necessary to do so in the context of what we are dealing with. What has happened is unprecedented in my time here. Does the Leas-Chathaoirleach want to comment on what I have just outlined?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Yes. On advice, I will just put on record that I had text messages and a missed call from a number I did not recognise last night, so I had to inquire who it was. It was the CEO of Rowing Ireland using a different number from the one I would have had saved for her name for quite a number of years. She was seeking what I can only describe as my confidence and support in relation to this hearing. I advised her that I was not in a position to take the call because I was with my children. I said I would see her today. She had indicated that she was on her way up the road, so I did think that I would speak to her today and I said I would speak to her before the session, but I could not take her call last night. I did not feel that this interaction was appropriate. As the Chair referenced, he and I then received emails this morning outlining why the CEO was not attending.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I now invite Dr. May to make her opening statement.
Dr. Úna May:
On behalf of Sport Ireland, I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for this opportunity to discuss the important issue of athlete welfare and safeguarding. We appreciate the committee's continued attention to the safety and welfare of athletes as they pertain to the high-performance system and to rowing in particular. We acknowledge and regret the experience shared by some athletes in the Rowing Ireland high-performance programme and recognise the importance of individuals being able to tell their story.
Sport Ireland believes that athlete welfare and sporting success, including medals won, are complementary objectives. In Ireland we have shown that we can achieve remarkable things while keeping athlete welfare central to high-performance programmes. Further, we can reach our full potential only by placing the athlete voice at the core of our systems. We reassure the committee and the wider community that Sport Ireland responded immediately, appropriately and promptly to any welfare concerns that were raised with us regarding rowing. We can speak to a number of interventions including mentoring, mediation, meetings, resources and services.
Sport Ireland provides services to national governing bodies with high-performance programmes to empower them to provide high standards of athlete welfare. These include, but are not limited to, the following: support services from Sport Ireland Institute, including performance psychology, clinical psychology and athlete life skills; a culture enhancement programme for all high-performance programmes, 12 of which have been conducted since 2022; and the Sport Ireland culture adviser, who provides advisory support, targeted interventions and programme-specific guidance. Furthermore, in 2024 an athlete support manager, funded by Sport Ireland, was employed by the Federation of Irish Sport, and Sport Ireland's head of performance coaching works to support and develop coaches.
To be frank, there were issues in the rowing high-performance programme. Any matters that were raised were addressed through available mechanisms, including direct dialogue with the leadership in rowing. Rowing Ireland is an independent national governing body. It has professional staff, a high-performance committee and a board with functioning governance, successful programmes and policies and procedures. It is reasonable and appropriate for Sport Ireland to allow a national governing body time and space to address its own issues. Further intervention should only be considered when new information becomes available. In March 2021, new information did become available when the clinical psychologist contracted by Sport Ireland formally notified us of potential welfare issues in the Rowing Ireland high-performance programme. Sport Ireland directly and repeatedly contacted the senior leadership of Rowing Ireland of its concerns, of Rowing Ireland's responsibilities regarding athlete welfare and performance staff and of its duty to resolve issues satisfactorily. Issues took time to resolve because there were multiple constraints and complexities. Sport Ireland is open to any mechanism that would allow for more timely resolution of issues.
Sport Ireland uses the regular quadrennial reviews of the Olympic and Paralympic cycle to drive the high-performance system forward and these reviews are publicly available. Culture reviews are associated but separate processes. Culture reviews are a key mechanism in understanding and addressing issues within high-performance programmes. Following the Tokyo Olympics, Rowing Ireland did not engage in an independent culture review despite Sport Ireland’s expectation that one take place. Sport Ireland is a statutory agency and funding is a key part of our work. We take a considered approach, assessing all available avenues before exploring a funding solution. Funding was used as a specific lever in 2024 for Rowing Ireland following a review of available options.
In relation to safeguarding, historically, the focus has been on children. While Sport Ireland does not have statutory investigative powers, our role is one of guidance and support. Sport Ireland delivers over 3,500 child safeguarding workshops annually. Non-compliance with relevant legislation can result in suspension or withdrawal of financial support. With regard to safe sport for adults, Sport Ireland recently commissioned Safe Sport International to conduct a needs analysis. Our work in the area of safeguarding is outlined in the briefing document provided, and we are happy to discuss it further at this meeting.
We welcome the opportunity to discuss athlete welfare and safeguarding. I am joined by Mr. McDermott, who has over 20 years of experience in Sport Ireland and is our director of high-performance and national governing bodies, Mr. Donnelly is culture advisor and has many years of international experience in this area and Ms McHugh, our director of integrity and ethics. We look forward to the committee's questions.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Dr. May. Before I invite Mr. McWilliams to deliver the opening statement on behalf of Rowing Ireland - we did not know who was actually going to deliver the statement - I want to reference the Principles of Partnership Agreement between the Rowing Ireland High Performance Programme and the Sport Ireland Institute. The term listed is from 19 May 2025 to 28 February 2029. The document states, "The adherence to this agreement is the responsibility of the Rowing Ireland High Performance Director". Later it states, "Coaching staff were open to questions about the training approach Support staff are open to questions about the support approach and responsibilities". Under "Responsibilities" it says "Coaching and support staff will engage in open and authentic communication to achieve the best results for the athletes and the programme". Just to put it on record, it is very disappointing the CEO of the organisation is not here. I ask Mr. McWilliams to deliver the opening statement.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to come before them to present, and answer questions, on the topic of high-performance athlete welfare and safeguarding. As the national governing body, Rowing Ireland had responsibility for more than 60 racing events, 106 clubs, over 8,000 members and 45,000 participants in the Get Going Get Rowing programme in 2025. The sport of rowing in Ireland has grown rapidly in recent years, and we are responsible for the overall health and success of rowing on all parts of the island. Supporting all of this activity is a small organisation of 28 staff - let met correct that for the record, it was marked as 30 - aided by a great number of volunteers. Rowing Ireland acknowledges that funding is the lifeblood of our sport, and we are very grateful to the Department and to Sport Ireland for this. In addition to all of this work countrywide our high-performance programme is also a tremendous success, particularly in its presence on the world stage. Rowing was Ireland’s most successful sport at consecutive Olympic Games. In Rio, we won silver and in Tokyo, we won gold and bronze. The success in Tokyo was repeated in Paris in 2024. The high-performance programme has grown in number from three athletes in 2017 to 27 today. It has evolved into a broad, multi-boat programme, including para rowing and coastal rowing. A landmark evolution for the sport has been the introduction of mixed crews. Margaret Cremen and Fintan McCarthy became the firstever world champions in the inaugural mixed double sculls at the 2025 World Rowing Championships in Shanghai.
What unifies strong Irish success around the world with our vibrant domestic scene is that we are equally proud of both and the people who make it happen, the vast majority of whom are volunteers. Rowing Ireland appreciates that the recent media scrutiny of our sport has highlighted the experiences of a number of high-performance athletes in the Olympic cycles up to Paris 2024. While these experiences are not shared by all participants in the high-performance programme, that they were experienced by anyone is not acceptable. The growth of our presence as a nation at the highest levels of international rowing – placing fifth in the rowing medals table in Paris – while welcome in many ways, came with unanticipated speed. The platform on which such success was built could be seen as a work in progress, something not obvious from afar. Much of the period leading up to and away from the Tokyo games was heavily affected by Covid restrictions. Following the most recent games, the board was keen to initiate a new era for Rowing Ireland. The high-performance athlete is at the centre of the Programme. By first securing the welfare and well-being of the athlete, we will build a lasting, durable foundation on which the conditions for future success can reliably rest.
Over the past 15 months, the board has engaged extensively with staff, members, clubs and athletes. Informed by valuable reviews, surveys and direct feedback we have worked consistently to strengthen our organisation, enhance governance and accountability and ensure every aspect of Rowing Ireland operates within clear policies and procedures. We have also strengthened leadership across the organisation by bringing in experienced colleagues from other sports and sectors, including a new head of high performance, a governance and planning lead, new independent nonexecutive directors – meaning the board is 60% renewed since September 2024 – and a facilities and safeguarding officer. We have increased our collaboration with the Sport Ireland Institute and the Federation of Irish Sport and we have consistently engaged with Sport Ireland. Alongside this, we have significantly improved training, recovery and catering facilities at the National Rowing Centre and begun the process of appointing an athletes director to ensure a direct athlete voice at board level. Our recent culture survey shows these changes are already having a strong positive impact across the programme.
In all elite sport, the work rate, sacrifices and commitment demanded by ambition can be fierce and rowing is no different. Some athletes will make it all the way to the Olympic finishing line in first place. However, it also brings disappointment to those who do not make selection. Conversations which coaches must initiate at this level are always very challenging. The fact the high-performance athletes represent less than 1% of our rowing members does not diminish our drive to improve continuously and we are developing a new athletes’ charter for high performance to be completed later this month. All of these steps reflect our commitment to continually raising standards, supported by the many people who have helped strengthen our foundations for the future. We have expanded support for clubs, improved athlete development and care and approved enhancements to the rules of rowing and the domestic calendar.
In 2026, the board and executive of Rowing Ireland will continue to deepen its connection with the entire rowing community by listening, engaging and working together to turn meaningful ideas into sustainable progress for the sport. I am joined by Mr. O’Carroll, a full-time professional member of our executive and head of high performance, and Ms Williams, president of our volunteer board. I am sorry for the non-appearance of Michelle Carpenter and Dominic Casey. Ms Carpenter is unwell at the moment. Just to clarify, any official correspondence that has come from us to the committee in the past 48 hours will have come either through our solicitor or me. Mr. Casey is unavailable. As a result, there may be some questions we are less well able to answer. Go raibh maith agaibh.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Mr. McWilliams. Obviously, we wish Ms Carpenter well. I ask Mary O'Connor from the Federation of Irish Sport to make her opening statement.
Ms Mary O'Connor:
I thank the Chairperson, Deputies and Senators for inviting the Federation of Irish Sport to make a statement on high-performance athlete welfare and safeguarding. The federation is an independent representative body for 110 sporting organisations across Ireland, including 81 national governing bodies, NGBs, and 29 local sports partnerships.
In October 2024, the federation operationalised the role of the high-performance athlete support manager - the background and detail have been provided separately in a briefing document. The athlete support manager's, ASM, role is designed to provide direct support to athletes in receipt of funding from the Sport Ireland international carding scheme and equivalent schemes. I will provide an overview of the key outputs relating to the first 12 months of the role. In the context of engagement, more than 95 athletes have engaged in group workshops delivered by the ASM. Eighteen athletes across seven sports have sought one-to-one support on a range of issues. Due to the inherent complexity of many cases, their resolution frequently necessitates extensive examination, support, discussion and negotiation. This output has successfully de-escalated and resolved disputes, providing clarity and support to athletes and NGBs.
On stakeholder engagement, ongoing engagement is taking place with CEOs and-or performance programme staff within NGBs in receipt of high-performance funding. This engagement centres around relationship building, supporting NGBs in the establishment and enhancement of athlete representative structures, and ongoing support and guidance on the implementation of Sport Ireland’s athlete welfare policy.
In respect of athlete representation, significant work has taken place to enhance the effectiveness of the athlete voice across the Irish high-performance system. This includes consultations with the Olympic Federation of Ireland, OFI, and Paralympics Ireland athletes' commissions, high-performance directors, HPDs, and NGB staff on best practice guidance in developing athlete representative structures, drafting terms of reference and role specifications for athlete representatives, and educating athletes on the purpose of these structures and how to engage with them proactively and constructively.
Under the heading of requirement for additional staffing, the ASM role is inherently high contact, high trust and time intensive, requiring sustained, personalised engagement with athletes, NGBs and sport system stakeholders. This is not a transactional function; it is a relational and responsive role that demands emotional intelligence, discretion and significant time investment to build and maintain trust.
Currently, this entire portfolio is managed by a single individual, which, we believe, is no longer sustainable given the increased scale and complexity of the high-performance system in Ireland. The rationale for expanding the team is based on the following key factors. With the permission of the Chair, I may just highlight some of the key headings because of the time constraints.
Under the heading of high emotional and ethical demands, the ASM often operates in emotionally charged, ethically complex and sensitive scenarios. Athletes may be facing career-threatening disputes, traumatic safeguarding or welfare experiences or mental health challenges. The quality of the ASM's support can significantly impact an athlete's well-being, career trajectory and trust in the high-performance system.
In the context of timeliness of support being crucial, in matters relating to athlete welfare, safeguarding or early stage dispute intervention, time is often a critical factor. Delays in addressing an issue can escalate a conflict, result in athlete disengagement or damage the reputation and integrity of the high-performance system.
Under the heading of strategic importance of cultural and representative engagement, beyond reactive support, the ASM is a key driver of proactive system development through: engagement with athlete representative structures; support to NGBs in the implementation of Sport Ireland's athlete welfare policy; and support for long-term athlete transition through performance life skills co-ordination.
Under continuity, resilience and risk management, the current reliance on a single individual for this vital function represents a single point of failure. In the event of illness, annual leave or departure from the role, the service would be significantly disrupted. Given the nature of the work, this risk is unacceptable.
The role of the ASM is pivotal to the integrity and sustainability of an athlete centred high-performance system in Ireland. With increasing demands and expectations, the current single-person structure is no longer sufficient to provide a responsive, equitable, and resilient service to athletes and NGBs. Expanding the staff complement is both a practical and strategic necessity.
Under existing challenges, gaps and future recommendations, beyond the need for additional staffing, existing gaps within the high-performance system add complexity to the ASM role and create risks to athlete welfare. Notably, there is currently no national policy or guidance for NGBs on adult safeguarding in sport. Given the inherent complexity of high-performance environments and the power dynamics involved, it is essential that all NGBs, athletes and performance staff understand their responsibilities in safeguarding adults and in fostering a safe and healthy culture within their NGB's performance programme.
The ASM operates independently in this role but does not have investigative powers; nor is there an external body or organisation beyond Sport Ireland to which cases of concern can be referred. This presents a significant gap in the high-performance system to address welfare or safeguarding concerns.
To address the challenges and gaps discussed above, the following is recommended by the federation to Sport Ireland: develop a national adult safeguarding policy and guidance for all NGBs; mandate the implementation of Sport Ireland's athlete welfare policy by NGBs - create a formal, monitoring and reporting mechanism to track and ensure NGB compliance and active implementation of the policy; and establish an independent, external referral pathway with investigative powers, providing a formal, confidential mechanism for athletes and staff to report safeguarding or welfare concerns outside of the NGB.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Ms O'Connor. Before we go to members, I want to ask the following question. Will the witnesses indicate when they commenced their roles or began working with their organisations?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is nobody here from Rowing Ireland prior to the date in 2022 Mr. McWilliams mentioned. What date was that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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For anything prior to 2023, there is nobody getting involved. That is noted.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was Mr. Donnelly paid before November 2022?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Totally voluntarily.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was there an MOU or an agreement as regards that voluntary work?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is just I never heard of it before.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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And before that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What did you do before that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy Cleere. He has seven minutes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief and get to the point. I acknowledge that there has been huge growth in Rowing Ireland in terms of numbers, participation and new clubs over the past number of years. In my parish of Graiguenamanagh, we have a fantastic rowing club that has really gone from strength to strength. I wanted to acknowledge that at the outset.
Whether you are a ten- or 11-year-old boy or girl starting out or you are at the absolute top echelon of the game, you need to be protected, and Rowing Ireland needs to be safeguarding. I understand the pride and honour that everybody who represents their club, county or country feels. Often I hear people talk about the sacrifices people make to represent their country. For me, it is no sacrifice to represent your country. You are doing it because you want to. You are doing it because you have an innate love of the sport. However, some of the stories that have come out recently have been upsetting and shocking, both for me, as an individual, and for the country as well. We need to get into the heart and the hub of that today as best we can.
How much funding does Rowing Ireland get from the Government on an annual basis?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the nature of Rowing Ireland's engagement with Sport Ireland at present? How often do the organisations meet? What are the items on the agenda? Mr. McWilliams might respond. I will come to Sport Ireland as well.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How often do you meet formally? Ad hoc, you meet somebody at a match and say, "Hello". That is grand. How often does formal engagement between Sport Ireland and Rowing Ireland take place? Is there a structured arrangement?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry to cut across Mr. O'Carroll, but how often is "reasonably regular"?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is no formal arrangement there or formal sit-down to discuss matters. It is just whatever comes up is discussed. There are no actual safeguarding discussions. It is just a general discussion.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is reactive as opposed to proactive.
Dr. May said, "We reassure the committee and the wider community that Sport Ireland responded immediately, appropriately and promptly to any welfare concerns that were raised with us regarding rowing." How many cases were raised with it?
Dr. Úna May:
We received initial information that was quite generalised and we felt it was of a methodological and philosophical challenge around the approach in rowing. We did not receive any specific details in the early stages of this challenge arising. We would have had communication through our own service provider, the clinical psychologist, in March 2021, again in March 2022, and finally in early 2024. These were formal engagements, but prior to that they were generalised philosophical differences of opinion.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many would there have been? How many reports were received from Rowing Ireland?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many cases were Rowing Ireland aware of? I am not looking for specific details of individuals, just how many cases were brought to the attention of the organisation.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry to get specific, I just need to know how many cases-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In his comments at the outset, Mr. McWilliams stated:
Rowing Ireland appreciates that the recent media scrutiny of our sport has highlighted the experiences of a number of high-performance athletes in the Olympic cycles up to Paris 2024. While these experiences are not shared by all participants in the high-performance programme, that they were experienced by anyone is not acceptable.
As chairperson of Rowing Ireland, what does Mr. McWilliams say to those high-performance athletes who feel so badly let down by Rowing Ireland?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. McWilliams apologise for the hurt that was caused to some of these people and for their treatment?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am all about elite athletes. I totally get it. Elite athletes go hard as they can and get to the top of their game, and that is absolutely fantastic, but some of the stuff that some of these elite athletes were subjected to was, in my view, wrong. I am asking Mr. McWilliams whether he would apologise to those athletes who are so aggrieved. Their stories are widely circled in the media, so I do not want to get into individual cases, but will Mr. McWilliams apologise today on behalf of Rowing Ireland to those athletes?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. McWilliams apologise?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a yes-no question. Does Mr. McWilliams apologise to those athletes who have been so badly mistreated over the last number of years as part of the high-performance programme?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McWilliams is not going to apologise. Would the representatives of Sport Ireland apologise?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am just conscious of time. We talk about the culture in Rowing Ireland. It is like when you get the toothpaste out of a tube, in that it is very hard to get it back in again. There is a perception and a feeling out there among a lot of people I have spoken to that they have been let down and that there is a toxic culture in Rowing Ireland. I acknowledge that some people have positive experiences but there are others who give every single bit as much, try every bit as hard and do their very best. It is not about selection, but they have been failed by Rowing Ireland.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
I will answer what I can about the culture and then I will hand over to our president, Ms Williams. Culture is very important and something we are working to improve in the high-performance unit and throughout the organisation as a whole. My approach as chair, which I have extolled and shared consistently with everyone I have met, is that we must be approachable. I tell people that if they come to talk to me, I will listen. We will all listen to any experiences that people have had.
I will now pass over to Ms Williams, if I may.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I find it incredible that Mr. McWilliams will not apologise. He is acknowledging their experiences but he will not actually apologise to those people. That is incredible.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McWilliams realise what he is saying?
Ms Jane Williams:
I have experience in the area of culture and culture change. I was a member of the independent review group for the behaviours in the Defence Forces and our report is on the record of the Oireachtas. I can say that the culture in Rowing Ireland is not toxic. It is a glib word that is put on it. There have been instances that we would regret, but by and large, the culture-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has Ms Williams spoken with the athletes in those instances? Has she sat down with them?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Our rowing athletes, both men and women, have represented Ireland on the world stage extremely successfully, with medals galore in all spheres. One of the highlights of the Rio de Janeiro Olympics in 2016, and something that is rewatched to this day, is the O'Donovans' hilarious interviews, which were shared around the world, with them beaming with national pride. However, only a year later in 2017, Gary O'Donovan was part of a group of rowers that was trying to highlight serious concerns about the toxic culture that Ms Williams says does not exist within Rowing Ireland.
Sport Ireland's opening statement says that it directly and repeatedly contacted the senior leadership of Rowing Ireland regarding concerns, its responsibilities regarding athlete welfare and performance staff, and its duty to resolve issues satisfactorily. Sport Ireland said it was aware of some of these issues prior to 2021 but more substantively from 2021 onwards. Dr. Paul Gaffney, who was employed in Sport Ireland Institute as the lead consultant in clinical psychology, reported that athletes were consistently reporting a culture that could be punitive or invalidating, or as the athlete he speaks with most often describes it, a culture fear within the team. Sport Ireland's representatives say they will not breach any confidentiality unless they believe there is a risk of harm to the athlete making the disclosure or to other athletes, but Sport Ireland was told that harm was being caused from 2021 right through to 2024, as Dr. May referenced. That is a sustained period of three years. Why did Sport Ireland not act in any way to protect the athletes, whom I can only imagine felt exposed, unsafe and perhaps vulnerable?
Dr. Úna May:
From my point of view, individual athletes had not made approaches to us. Our understanding was that individual athletes had requested not to have their names given to Sport Ireland, so it was difficult for us to deal with individual situations. However, we put in a strong suite of remedial initiatives, policies and procedures. We spoke regularly with Rowing Ireland and asked it to tackle the issues directly on the front line. We introduced an athlete welfare policy.
It is important to recognise that the high-performance system has been evolving in recent years. During the period we are discussing, we were also very conscious of the fact that there was a global pandemic, which impacted some of the potential opportunities for us to deal directly with some of these issues. Sport Ireland spent a lot of resources, time and energy in resolving direct issues for athletes, becoming available, and providing them with training opportunities, travel opportunities and competition opportunities. We engaged directly with a lot of the individuals through those standardised, generic services we provide. We provide a lot of services. We have provided the clinical psychology service to athletes. We provide life skills services, maternity policy, athlete life skills and, as I mentioned, the athlete welfare policy. We introduced Mr. Donnelly to the programme. We asked him to engage directly with it, which he did voluntarily. We took a lot of steps in order to ensure-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. May feel enough was done in light of what were in many cases very brave disclosures, which anybody who reads a newspaper is aware of at this stage?
Dr. Úna May:
From Sport Ireland's point of view, we operate within a very strict legislative framework. We are a statutory agency and we carry out our functions within that statutory framework. There are employment law issues that were in question here, athlete privacy rights and their rights to confidentiality, which they had specifically requested so as not to be personally involved in these issues. From Sport Ireland's point of view, we took what measures we could within the remit of Sport Ireland and within our statutory limitations.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The main thing within Sport Ireland’s remit is the funding that Rowing Ireland receives through grants from it. Was consideration given to suspending any of those grants at any stage? The €1.4 million per annum is a huge amount of money for the high-performance area. Was consideration given at any stage to perhaps suspending that funding while investigations were under way?
Dr. Úna May:
Consideration was given to it. I will give Mr. McDermott the opportunity to respond to this, but we did give grave consideration to that potential. There were also potential risks to stopping funding. We reached that point in 2024 where we actually attached strict compliance with specific requirements as part of the terms and conditions of funding. Mr. McDermott will give more detail around this point.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. McDermott to be brief, if he can.
Mr. Paul McDermott:
We reached the point in 2024 where funding stopped. As an agency and within high performance, we do not like to weaponise funding against agencies. We want to use funding as the last tool in the toolkit really. I think people will appreciate that. We do not want to be going into any situation where there is a threat to funding every time somebody disagrees with us. We began a process. I can talk the committee through it, but it could be quite detailed.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is fine.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will move to Rowing Ireland briefly. Who wrote the statement Mr. McWilliams read into the record?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was stated in it, and my colleague referred to this earlier, that:
Rowing Ireland appreciates that the recent media scrutiny of our sport has highlighted the experiences of a number of high-performance athletes in the Olympic cycles up to Paris 2024. While these experiences are not shared by all participants in the high-performance programme, that they were experienced by anyone is not acceptable.
Why is the focus in that statement on the media scrutiny and not on what the athletes experienced?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Well, it is not. It says it in black and white.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
-----accept feedback in all its forms, whether it comes from, sadly, having got to the extent of legal redress, which it has, or if it comes in the form of comment or concern. We are taking measures to make sure that concerns can be raised in a new method very soon. I am sorry, but I have forgotten the second part of the Deputy’s question.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I just cannot fathom this. The whole reason Mr. McWilliams is here is safeguarding and athlete well-being, yet his first major point was around the media scrutiny and not what the athletes experienced, the distress and the trauma.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. McWilliams confident now that there are written, documented changes, with checks and balances in place, to ensure that what athletes experienced previously simply cannot happen again in future? Can Mr. McWilliams give reassurances to the committee that that is the case?
Ms Jane Williams:
We revamped a particular dimension on the complaints side of things, recognising that, with selection in the offing, there is a difficulty in getting people to come forward with issues. It is essential that we get to hear about those, because we can do something about them as a result. In our new-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I think that the difficulty athletes would find in coming forward is the fact that Rowing Ireland cannot even recognise that there is a toxic culture in place that is pretty evident. The representatives have said it here today as well,-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----so if that is the resistance athletes are meeting when they are trying to come forward, I can completely understand why they cannot.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Well, that will come out in the wash. I just want to get some clarity quickly from Mr. McDermott before we go to the next speaker. He has stated new information. Did Sport Ireland tell Rowing Ireland that its funding was going to be stopped? I ask him to be brief.
Mr. Paul McDermott:
What happened was that, by 2024, Dr. May, as the CEO, wrote to Rowing Ireland. At that time, some of the requests were not being implemented, notwithstanding the timing of it, so we said in the final letter that a portion of the impact funding would not go forward. We were, therefore, using that lever in 2024.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was that before the director of high performance was no longer-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am here as a sports fanatic as much as a politician because I know how much it means to every town and village in Ireland and every person in Ireland when we have success. The key part of my job now is to ensure that the social infrastructures are there in relation to schools, culture and, very importantly, sport. I fully welcome the millions and literally billions of euro spent on sport in the last couple of decades. The key ethos really should be that we get kids to join clubs and not gangs.
This brings me to the investment in elite athletes. These are the people our kids look up to and we always presumed our heroes were being looked after. When we read comments such as Rowing Ireland's high-performance programme being described as a “cult” - this is not my comment, but one that is out in the public domain - that has inflicted "catastrophic physical and mental damage" on people, and when we have a leading psychologist sitting here in front of us telling us that there are 12 current or former elite athletes getting treatment, it is simply wrong. In my opinion, we should be rewarding athletes who represent our country. We should not be placing a cost on athletes to represent our country.
With this in mind, will the witnesses please explain to me why Sport Ireland did not pull the plug sooner when the alarm bells were going off in relation to welfare? We have heard just now that it pulled the plug in relation to finance three years after the initial complaints. It was said in the opening statement that they were new complaints. Were there previous complaints? Also, are we actually dealing with a can of worms here? Is this far bigger than Rowing Ireland? Can Sport Ireland give us assurances here today that this is not going on in many other sporting organisations that it is funding?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
I will take the last piece. I hope to be able to reassure people in the committee and generally, as was said in the opening statement, that we can give confidence that what we read about rowing is not happening in other sports. My understanding is that the Sport Ireland Institute clinical psychologist said that in his statement here. It was within rowing in recent years. I will just try to explain very briefly.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What was within rowing?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I do not want to interrupt, but when Mr. McDermott said it was within rowing, what was he referring to?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How can Mr. McDermott back up that statement that he feels it is not in any other sport bar rowing?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He cannot.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am asking Mr. McDermott how he can-----
Mr. Paul McDermott:
It is my own view. In my engagements with the athlete, coach and high-performance community, I do not have any reason to say to this committee that there are athlete welfare issues of the same type in other sports. We are dealing with issues. They arise from time to time but we are addressing them as they do, and nothing is apparent in the rest of the Irish sport high-performance system as was evident in rowing over the period we are discussing, in my view.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What is being addressed from time to time? Are they issues that are coming onto the table from other sports? I just need a clear answer on this. Is this a can of worms? Is this rampant throughout elite projects in Ireland?
Does Mr. McDermott have the evidence to prove it is not?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
It is hard to prove a negative. We have a suite of interventions across the high-performance system. When we engage with the high-performance system on welfare issues using the Sport Ireland institute services, be they sports or clinical psychology or engagements on performance, we have to allow for the fact that from time to time issues arise in high-performance sport. What happened in rowing in the period we are discussing today has not happened and is not happening in other sports. This was an unusual – in fact, unique – set of circumstances that I have come across in my experience.
I refer to what the clinical psychologist said the committee last week, which is also my view and the view of others. As I said, I cannot prove a negative. I can give my view that where it occurs, and given the federation initiative with John Donnelly and our engagement, we are addressing these issues as quickly as we can when they arise. They do arise. The issue is that we were not able to resolve them in the timely manner that we would have expected and wanted. That is the distinction. This extended over a period of time, whereas under a normal set of circumstances when we address an issue we hope we can resolve it within a reasonable time because we have respect for the athlete. It is very important that the athlete has our confidence and the reassurance if that anything arises-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Rowing Ireland is here in a forum where it has never before had a chance to issue a public apology. It is absolutely incredible that it is not taking this opportunity to do so. I can only read into what not issuing a public apology is trying to say. Is the organisation in denial about what has happened and we have heard over the past couple of weeks?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Why will Rowing Ireland not issue an apology? Some family members of athletes are in the Gallery today. Rowing Ireland has a forum to issue an apology. Why does it not take this opportunity to do so?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Rowing Ireland could start with an apology.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I will speak to Rowing Ireland first about what is different. Ms O'Connor spoke on behalf of the Federation of Irish Sport and said it was intended that there be a review after Tokyo. As we understand, that did not take place. I want to acknowledge the success of rowers who did succeed and the commitment at local level acknowledged by Rowing Ireland. Our key concern is athlete welfare. There are particular concerns about elite athlete welfare. In the context of Los Angeles 2028, I want to know what is different with regard to Tokyo and Paris.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
To come back to the comments of Deputies Byrne and Brennan on culture and toxicity, I would argue that the culture in the rowing camp is very strong and healthy at the moment. Obviously, I cannot speak to what the culture was like five years ago. We are building a culture that very much has the athlete at the centre.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry for interrupting. There was a problem and I appreciate Mr. McWilliams cannot speak. I share the concern of the Chair expressed earlier on witnesses coming late to our committee. Can Mr. McWilliams speak to what is different? Concerns were clearly expressed by elite athletes. A number of athletes have contacted us. That is why the issue is before the committee. It is not just one athlete; there are several. We cannot change the past, but I want to know that we are in a position where all of our elite athletes are treated with respect and will not have to endure what athletes had to endure in previous cycles.
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
My colleague, the CEO of the Federation of Irish Sport, spoke about the athlete support person. That is a critical difference that has come in since October 2024. Obviously, given the nature of the support and what it does for the athletes I cannot speak about what goes on there. It has been an excellent initiative and is diligently reported on from federations which support Ireland-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. O'Carroll confident that in the cycle we will not see instances that have been raised with us or which have been reported?
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
We are making every effort, with the likes of the ISM and engagement of John Donnelly, who is helping Mr. O'Connor settle into his new role with us, that in all kinds of ways we will do everything we can. It is our goal to make sure the people do not have those experiences and things are caught earlier so that our learning can be put into action earlier.
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
A fundamental difference is that the athletes have a voice at the centre of the conversation, whereas traditionally in high-performance sports units one person is responsible for high performance. They direct everything and the athletes do as they are told. We are starting to create a culture that is very different. Part of that is radically changing the way we approach selection, build a selection panel and communicate with athletes so they are consistently being informed of where they are in the programme. This addresses what happens where an athlete is not selected and experiences dreadful disappointment – I have had to have a conversation many times with athletes to tell them their Olympic dream is gone, which is a horrible place to be. When they face that, if we have engaged in a conversation throughout the whole cycle at least they know exactly where they stand even though they are devastated. We also have a very different approach. It is fair to say that Mr. Dominic Casey, our head coach, has a much more athlete-centric approach to coaching than what may have been there before.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. O'Carroll saying that the change in culture happened when there was a change in coach?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Carroll can see where I am coming from. We have a concern that if there were issues raised post-Tokyo a review was not carried out, as we now know. Obviously, there were serious concerns following Tokyo which led to concerns around Paris. Is Mr. O'Carroll saying that when the change in coach occurred that was when the change in culture occurred within the organisation? What processes were put in place to allow that?
There were clearly problems in the past. I share the concerns of colleagues about an apology or whatever. The issue is that there has been an acknowledgement of that. When was the change in response to the problems that came before identified? From what I have been told, on the basis of what Mr. O'Carroll said there was a change in coach and, therefore, a change in culture. Has there been a formal change? It was mentioned that athletes are much more involved. There is now an athlete's charter in place.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
The change in direction and the decision to focus on what was coming that was new and different for LA 28 was an important part of the decision not to renew a contract. With that it is inevitable and the stuff of high-performance sport at that level that high-performance directors are-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is it fair to say that the decision not to renew the contract was partly in response to issues that have been raised as a result of concerns that have been expressed?
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
I desperately do not want to sidestep the question, but what happened in 2025 when we had a period of time before Mr. O'Carroll joined us in September was that the culture formed and the athletes formed a very cohesive group. It comprised those continuing from Paris and towards LA. What Mr. O'Carroll found, and he can perhaps speak to this, is that he came into a culture that was settling itself.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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For us it is about the formalising of this process. There has been an acknowledgement that there was a problem. We cannot change the past, but there needs to be a response to the athletes who felt impacted. There is a more formal structure. I served on the previous sport committee.
We can even look to the fact that the witnesses are in here. Having served on the previous Oireachtas sports committee, I know Sport Ireland and the Federation of Irish Sport have been before us before. There are a lot of really good things happening in sport. However, the organisations have come before us on these kinds of issues and some senior people are not available. I suggest to the Cathaoirleach that when they do become available, we may need to return to that. When the chief executive is better, I think we need to return to this issue to hear those views. I appreciate Mr. O'Carroll is here but he was not there for some of the time.
I know this is not a majority but I know Dr. May and Ms O'Connor have been in here before when we have dealt with boxing and issues in the FAI. They have come through some of that process but it is about ensuring it does not happen to again. What the witnesses are saying to us seems to be that it will not happen again because the coach who was there is not there.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is a factor, though.
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
The decision by Rowing Ireland to hire me was probably a direct reaction to the fact it was looking for somebody very different to come into that role. The change in culture is based on the structures we are putting in place, like a culture charter and things like that, which make it much more transparent.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Referring to the opening statements, there were statements made by Dr. May that the ambition is to achieve remarkable things while keeping athlete welfare at the centre of the work of being done in Sport Ireland. To revert to Mr. McWilliams' opening statement, when he spoke about the importance of the welfare and well-being of athletes being at the core of what the organisation does to ensure future success, I contend that what we have seen and heard from athletes would indicate the opposite is the case. If I refer to a letter that was sent by six elite rowers outlining concerns in 2017 in relation to the high-performance programme, with specific reference to safeguarding and athlete welfare, the response from Rowing Ireland was very much along the lines of putting the athletes back in their box. It did not seem to make direct reference to the concerns that were articulated. Indeed, it referenced five key principles which it encouraged the athletes to adhere to.
Two of those five principles include "being transparent and accountable" and "behaving with integrity". With the greatest of respect to those present, and I appreciate the presence of the representatives from Rowing Ireland, they were not part of the decision-making progress and I contend there is a lack of transparency, given the key people involved with the decision-making from the Rowing Ireland perspective are not here. That is a point that was articulated by the Cathaoirleach at the beginning of the meeting and is worth making.
Going back to the timeline, some of which was referenced by Dr. May in her opening statement, in March 2021 the clinical psychologist employed by Sport Ireland contacted Sport Ireland, outlining concerns in relation to safeguarding and athlete welfare. I consider that to be a red flag. A number of months later, the Tokyo Olympic Games took place at the end of July and start of August. Post the Tokyo Olympic Games, there would have been an expectation that the independent review would have been carried out. Dr. May indicated her disappointment, from the perspective of Sport Ireland, that the review was not done.
My first question is to Rowing Ireland. Can it briefly give us an idea as to why that independent review was not carried out and why there seemed to be push back against it and a reluctance to involve some of the key athletes who were at the core of what we are discussing today?
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
I thank the Senator. I will pass it to one of my colleagues to help with this, if he does not mind. I will start by saying "Yes". Admittedly, in 2017 there was an entirely different board and a different CEO at the time when the then high-performance director had been employed for about three months. To go forward to the Tokyo review, it is disappointing that was not completed. I share that disappointment. I know that does not help that.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Because of time restrictions we will not go any further into that but it is important it was acknowledged that is a disappointment from the point of view of Rowing Ireland as well as it having been articulated by Sport Ireland. Post the Tokyo Olympics, in August 2021, not even a full month after the games, Sport Ireland published its athlete welfare policy. It states:
In the instance where a national governing body fails to evidence meaningful efforts to resolve a serious issue, Sport Ireland will move to ensure the athlete is protected. This may result in the suspension of services and-or funding to the national governing body.
Given that Dr. May has already outlined concerns she had in relation to the non-completion of the review and we have already referenced the difficulty in decisions to cut funding, why did Sport Ireland not move then to cut the funding to Rowing Ireland pending the completion of that review?
Dr. Úna May:
I will take this opportunity to refer to my colleague, Mr. John Donnelly. He was engaging very closely with Rowing Ireland and the high-performance programme at that time. That is key to Sport Ireland's review of the actions that were being taken and the explanations we received as to why the funding was not cut to the programme.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I will cut across there because this is a key point. Not only was funding not cut but is it fair to say that not too long afterwards, the funding from Sport Ireland to Rowing Ireland actually increased to the tune of 75%?
Dr. Úna May:
The increase in funding is not in any way related to this issue. It relates to the success of the programme, which resulted in a greater number of athletes requiring supports, be that coaching, travel and accommodation or competition supports. The growing programme resulted in a need for greater funding in order to provide for all the athletes who were actually successful in progressing their sporting careers.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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That was notwithstanding the fact there were serious systemic failures, which seem to be acknowledged in Dr. May's opening statement, and the non-completion of the review?
Dr. Úna May:
We were concerned about the review. Mr. John Donnelly engaged very closely with Rowing Ireland on the resolution of those issues but from the point of view of the many athletes who were now experiencing and demonstrating success in the sport, we felt it was appropriate that we would provide them with adequate support.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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In the very limited time I have left, does Dr. May acknowledge the fact that 12 athletes have been referred for psychiatric treatment and an assessment as a result of the culture that was allowed to develop within Rowing Ireland, overseen by Sport Ireland?
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I am not going into the specifics.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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With the greatest of respect, everything I have heard today points to - I use the term advisedly - a cover-up. My final question is-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry Senator, it will have to be in the second round because he has gone over time.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Very briefly, I only require a one-word answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No. I call Senator Comyn.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for coming here today. There is no question that rowing in Ireland has given a lot of people a lot of joy over the years. I am from Drogheda, County Louth, and there was a tremendous Drogheda Rowing Club. My parents met there in 1950 so it was a good start there. Of course, Inver Colpa Rowing Club is now making huge strides there. There was of course joy brought by Ireland's success but my concern and everybody's concern is it was success, but at what cost?
I have listened to a lot of the testimonies, some of which were deeply concerning, and to the other stories. What were the efforts to tackle the root cause? I want to ask each of the witnesses. I can see efforts were made to get the athletes to be able to stand or cope with the alleged mistreatment. That is not tackling the root cause of it. It is very admirable that clinical psychologists were on hand, but that was to get them to handle what was happening to them rather than to change what was happening to them. I would like to know what efforts were made to tackle the root cause rather than to react to what was happening. Perhaps we can start with Rowing Ireland.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
There is an element of the importance of respecting confidentiality when it comes to numbers being quoted or information being shared about what we should do about that from our colleagues in Sport Ireland. My understanding from that time is we acted when we knew. It can be difficult to get people to come forward sometimes when they have something they need to share. What we mentioned earlier about raising a concern, for example, will be a very important new element of what people can do. I will pass over Mr. O'Carroll.
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
I would never want to have my name attached to a programme that has any allegations of this nature. There is a completely different approach and vision. An important consideration is that the nature of the high-performance culture has changed dramatically, in the past ten years especially. The idea of having a psychologist working with a team is still relatively new. It has been spoken about in lip service but there has never been any investment in it. It is a relatively new thing. The advancement of investigation into neuroscience and the understanding and appreciation of neurodiversity have given us all completely different views of how people interact with each other and receive information.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We do realise there is very high pressure in order to succeed. Was it almost taken as a given that part of that was to be, shall we say, bullied or mistreated, that the pressure would automatically go with being the best of the best?
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
From my perspective, doing a review and looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes in line with going forward, we need to realise rowing is not a traditional Olympic sport in Ireland. We have become accustomed to rowing winning medals but we only started winning medals in Rio. We won our first Olympic medal in 2016. We have won medals at the Olympics since then. With the growth of winning medals, the programme, expectations and pressure grew probably far quicker than the team support grew. That meant individuals potentially - I do not know whether they used that pressure or whether they succumbed to that pressure - but people in pursuit of maintaining Olympic success perhaps pushed the boundaries too far.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe. It certainly sounds like we are hearing that they did. What sanctions were put on them?
Mr. Niall O'Carroll:
To be fair, I have to be respectful to all the athletes currently in the programme, for whom I have enormous respect and whose welfare has equally been damaged by all of this. They have listened to this and some of the athletes who won medals in Tokyo feel some of the criticism takes the shine off their medals. They almost feel like there is a suggestion they did not deserve to be there. All of those athletes are all entitled to be heard as well. There are two different perspectives on that period of time. Regarding the way I have spoken about it with the group, two athletes who spoke to Paul Kimmage for his article are currently in our programme. Traditionally, in a high-performance sport environment, people who spoke out would be discarded. That is not the way we work now.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Not now. We can see a lot of references to a new era and new rules. I want to let some of the others in on that topic. Was it just a box-ticking exercise to offer this kind of assistance? What were the follow-ups to make sure it was working? What were the sanctions on those who might have been meting this out?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
I reassure the Senator and the committee that when concerns were raised and we were engaging with Rowing Ireland, we were not engaging passively. We diagnosed a solution, agreed with them and proposed a methodology, including activities such as the culture review, reforming selection policy, independent oversight of selection and an athlete support manager within Rowing Ireland. We proposed active solutions we felt would help the situation in Rowing Ireland there and then. We were not passively waiting for things to improve. We were working with Rowing Ireland, saying there were things it could do immediately to alleviate the situation and altering it to it. We also acknowledge that our colleagues in the Sport Ireland Institute were working daily on the programme and with athletes to ensure any issues and stresses were mitigated. It was not a passive thing. The Senator's point is absolutely valid and correct. It is not just a matter of symptoms. We had to address within a programme the long-term issues where there was a tendency in programmes like rowing to move into that area.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to bring Ms O'Connor in. It was mentioned in the opening statement that the athlete support manager does not have investigative powers which would have assisted in directing to the root cause. Does that need to change?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is there anything we can do to assist that?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I find this really upsetting. I think everybody in this room has the same agenda, which is that we have safe sports for our athletes in high-performance sport. I think we are all on the same page. There has been a lot of unsolicited contact from all sides to me and other members of this committee which has been deeply uncomfortable. The only agenda I have is for better and safer sport for our athletes in our high-performance systems. On the evidence of today's session, it is clear to me high-performance athletes in Ireland do not have a safe space to report mistreatment by a coach or in a coaching environment. As Mr. McDermott knows, high-performance sport is so different from any other environment because there is a very specific power dynamic at play between a coach and an athlete. If that is not managed properly, it can be a power imbalance. If athletes feel mistreated, and that could be mentally, verbally, sexually or in any way, they are not going to lodge a formal complaint internally against a person who could finish their career. These athletes are desperate to compete for Ireland. The last person they are going to complain to or about is the person selecting the squad, boat or team. That is the problem which we have established today. That is the gap. That is not safe. We are not safeguarding our athletes because of that. We should have learnt this lesson a long time ago in this country. Dr. May spoke on 24 September at the committee when the FAI was in and we spoke about safeguarding, but I was not fully happy with how far we got with it. She said, "However, we would not expect an NGB to act immediately and to take fundamental actions in relation to a concern ... Until it becomes a formal complaint it is very difficult for an NGB to respond." Is that still the position of Sport Ireland?
Dr. Úna May:
As a statutory agency, Sport Ireland is obliged to follow due process and fairness and transparency. That involves knowing the details to which are expected to take a response. In the absence of detailed information, Sport Ireland does not have a remit in resolving these kinds of matters itself but we recognise the frustration, disappointment and upset. We regret the experience of these athletes but it is the responsibility of their national governing body in the structures in which we operate.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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There is a very strict legislative framework which Dr. May referenced earlier. That is part of the problem. Sport Ireland has a memorandum of understanding with the national governing bodies. We were sent this morning a copious amount of documents. It is buried down at the very end, "Coaching staff are open to questions about [coaching style]".
That is part of the MOU. I do not understand how numerous athletes can raise concerns - not lodge formal complaints - with members of the institute, people involved in clinical psychology and coaches and for the response not to be immediate and serious. If this were a case of sexual abuse in another sport whereby the athlete was just past the age of mandatory reporting and did not feel safe enough to say anything to anybody, is Dr. May saying that, if the athlete confided in an informal way with somebody, nothing would be done?
Dr. Úna May:
It is important to recognise that it was through Sport Ireland's service providers that the supports were provided from day one to these individuals and to all the individuals who are involved in our high-performance programme. We put a lot of emphasis on the supports that athletes are provided with through the service providers.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Which is it? Is Sport Ireland responding with supports or cannot respond because it is legislatively tied?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Does Sport Ireland have investigative powers?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is a problem because there is nowhere safe for people to report something that could be quite serious.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is a really good initiative. I apologise for interrupting but my time is limited and I have a million questions.
Let us discuss the role of an athlete support manager. I thank Ms O'Connor for her contribution today. The federation has 81 NGBs, under its remit, but how many athlete support managers does it have?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Is that enough?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Donnelly, as culture adviser, believe that the system works? He has worked in safeguarding. He has analysed culture in other organisations and done that in the UK. Is he happy with the system as it stands? If not, what, if anything, would he change?
Mr. John Donnelly:
You can always improve the system. High-performance sport is contested space and there will always be differences of opinion. That is a fact because you have people pushing themselves and people sometimes restraining athletes who want to overperform. Therefore, a world-class organisation has really good methods of resolving that conflict quickly.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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There has been no real change since five years ago in terms of reporting and access to welfare in the systems that are in place now. Is that okay?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. McDermott said that there was no evidence of safeguarding concerns in any other sport. Does that mean that he is not, at present, aware of any coaches who have been stood down, informally or anything like that, in any other sport at the moment?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
No. I think what I am saying is that we know that there are issues and the distinction with rowing was different from that by the Senator's colleague, Deputy Brennan. There are a couple of issues in the system at the moment. There always are and they are being managed with the resources we have available to us.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Are they managed in-house?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
They are managed with all the available resources we have. It can be our colleague, Rachel, who works with Ms Mary O'Connor. It can be Mr. Donnelly, ourselves, the governing body, legal or external. These conflicts are complex but they do exist and we are not going to try to say to people that there are no conflicts. As Mr. Donnelly said, they do emerge, but what we are trying to do is manage them as they arise.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Carroll said that the camp is really positive at the moment. I would have concerns about that and we will have a second round of questioning. This committee has received an awful lot of correspondence, and while we are not going to go into the detail, current athletes feel very let down and feel that they do not have a safe space to report ongoing issues. I know that one high-performance director is gone but I do not think everything is perfect. There are people in the Gallery who were shaking their heads when Mr. O'Carroll said that everything was really happy at the moment, and I am concerned about that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Briefly.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is not independent and they do not feel safe anymore.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here and for their statements today. My first questions are for Dr. May and I wish to pick up on some of the comments made by members earlier about the legislation. Dr. May has talked about the experience of operating within the confines of the legislative mandate, the Sport Ireland Act 2015. I appreciate that exactly that has been done, that operating has taken place within the legislative mandate of specific organisations. Can I take from Dr. May's comments that she feels confined by the Act and feels Sport Ireland does not have enough powers to act upon these kinds of issues when they arise?
Dr. Úna May:
We are constrained largely with the strength of the actions we can take. However, our philosophy is to grow and develop the capacity of the sector to manage these kinds of situations. At the moment we welcome the opportunity to improve and strengthen the capacity of the governing bodies to manage these kinds of issues. They do operate within a global sporting system, which requires them to be independent and autonomous. We recognise and acknowledge that situation. However, we would see the potential. I think Mr. Donnelly has made reference to the potential that, when we are working on a new adult safeguarding process and a report, we may be quite happy to make recommendations. It is an area that we have considered.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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So Sport Ireland has reflected on the fact that perhaps its own legislation is not empowering it, as an organisation, to deal with safeguarding? Appreciating all that we have heard today about the fact that safeguarding should sit not only at governing body level but at Sport Ireland level, has Sport Ireland ever raised any such concerns or reflections with the Minister during any interactions?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Within its remit, under the functions of Sport Ireland, it is empowered "to encourage the promotion, development and co-ordination of, and the achievement of excellence in competitive sport ... to support elite athletes in achieving excellence in sport ... [and] to facilitate, through the promulgation of guidelines and codes of practice, standards of good conduct, fair play and the elimination of doping". In relation to the specifics of what we are discussing today, how have those powers been applied? Has Sport Ireland developed codes of practice and standards of good conduct that it has then promulgated with governing bodies? Is that what Dr. May has been describing today or has Sport Ireland specifically dealt with it? Have those in the organisation not at any point thought they are bumping up against what they can do here and that they, as an organisation, need more power to actually have effect?
Dr Úna May:
I think Mr. Donnelly wants to come in on this, but from my point of view, a lot of that is actually in place. We do provide significant guidance. We have introduced athlete welfare policies, maternity policies and codes of conduct. We have provided multiple documentation and supports for the system in line with our legislative remit in acknowledging the fact that there have been challenges. We have identified these challenges, and the Deputy specifically referenced anti-doping-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I do not want to discuss anti-doping as I am under time pressure. I encourage Sport Ireland, as I did when I was in a similar organisation, to consider the boundaries and confines of the legislative mandate and question whether it empowers those in the organisation to do their job effectively. We have mentioned investigations but we can also consider things like audits and ways in which Sport Ireland can engage with organisations in a formal manner that does not interfere with their independence and autonomy but gives assurance to the members and athletes of those organisations that there is a level above, that they do not just have a ceiling when it comes to when they have issues whereby they can only go to Rowing Ireland and there is no grandfather mechanism where they can go way above it. For me, that is good governance, and if it is not there, it needs to be looked at. I urge Sport Ireland to consider that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank Dr. May. I would like now to move on to Rowing Ireland. I really do share concerns that have been expressed by other members that some of the language that we are hearing from Rowing Ireland today reflects a lack of humility and concern with what has been obviously reported.
We have heard the witnesses say that there is no toxic culture, that members and clubs do not align their current reality with what has been reported in the media and that athletes who have been successful feel the shine has been taken off their achievements because of how this has been reported. We have heard a lot about what Rowing Ireland plans to do now. We have all expressed our concern that there is nobody here who can speak about the pre-2022 period. What is the organisation doing to deal with its past? The culture in the organisation will not be resolved and it will not deal with the atmosphere for current members and athletes unless they feel that the historical issues have been addressed. What is Rowing Ireland doing, as a board and as an organisation, to deal with that and not just deny it, which is what seems to be coming across, certainly for me, at today's meeting? I put that question to whomever of the three witnesses from Rowing Ireland wants to take it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Mr. O'Carroll and his colleagues all said there was not a toxic culture.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I am not talking about now; I am asking about the past.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I only have a minute left. I am asking what work the organisation is doing to deal with the historical issues involved here.
Mr. Barry McWilliams:
As a consequence of legal cases, recent and ongoing in some cases, we are restricted in learning more directly in the way we would really like. I cannot put across strongly enough to the Deputy that we really do get this and understand it. The day we come here and tell the committee everything is great and is sorted is the day members should be really concerned. The path of continuous improvement means that when we look back to periods five, six or nine years ago, they will look different from how things look today, whereas looking ahead by three, six or nine months, we see ourselves constantly moving forward and improving. For example, I would welcome any of the suggested moves to help with legislating. High-performance athletes exist in a strange category where they are not subject to duty of care under the law in the same way as schoolchildren or employees. They existed in the same way as university students, at least as far as my experience in the North goes. Anything that can be done to help that, we would welcome.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that Rowing Ireland has ongoing legal cases, but I still have not heard anything about what it is doing about the past. Does Ms Williams have anything to offer on that point?
Ms Jane Williams:
I mentioned developments on the complaints side, which was a huge piece of work. I know from dealing with problems in other organisations I worked with previously that this is fundamental to creating transparency, getting information and making changes. That is one aspect, and it is already under way.
The culture is shifting because, starting with high performance, the new culture is very clear and is demonstrated through the organisation. The board takes that very seriously. If we look at Mr. McWilliams's-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Ms Williams. The next speaker is Deputy Carrigy.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I welcome all the witnesses. I am experiencing something of a case of déjà vu. I remember a meeting of the previous committee, also attended by Deputy Malcolm Byrne, at which representatives of the Irish Athletic Boxing Association and Sport Ireland defended the former in respect of a lot of governance issues within that organisation. Ultimately, it was the perseverance of the committee that led to those at the top stepping down. It is difficult to read through documentation relating to a sport we have all watched and grown to love, but would not have known much about prior to the success of our athletes, having heard from the athletes the conditions under which they were actually working and training. The comment by Gary O'Donovan about pulling like a dog was noted a lot in the media. From what we have heard, the athletes were being treated like dogs within the system. That is disappointing when taxpayers' money was funding a high-performance unit to support athletes to win medals on behalf of the people of Ireland.
The role of the organisations represented today is to make sure they adhere to requirements regarding athletes' welfare and that those athletes are treated properly. That has not been done by either of the organisations. Nothing changed. These issues were raised post the Tokyo Olympic Games, yet, as mentioned by other members, increased funding was put in place despite those concerns. There was talk of Sport Ireland being concerned but it seems nothing was done about it. Nothing changed and that is not acceptable. Why did the witnesses ignore the welfare issues? Nothing was done even though increased funding was given to the high-performance unit where this was happening. I am asking a straight question: why did the witnesses ignore the issues and why was this funding increased?
I understand Rowing Ireland has three legal cases but that one has been settled. Unless the terms of that settlement prevent them from doing so, will the witnesses say what its terms were and how much it cost the organisation? Ultimately, it cost the taxpayer because we fund both organisations and, indeed, the funding disbursed by Sport Ireland is taxpayers' money.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but we would not be here today if they had changed. If things had changed, we would not have seen stuff in the media and my colleagues and I would not have written to the committee asking for this discussion.
Dr. Úna May:
From Sport Ireland's perspective, many things changed. We introduced a large number of initiatives and interventions to try to implement significant change in practice. Many things did change, many interactions occurred and many interventions happened. I will defer to my colleagues at this point.
Mr. Paul McDermott:
On the funding increase, I accept the Deputy's observation but the reality is that we were dealing with an increased number of athletes in 2021. The rowing programme had been successful and the standards had been driven up. We had a significant number of additional athletes who had their own entitlements to support and funding and all the associated requirements. That was the thing that drove our actions post Tokyo. We did our own Tokyo review and the need to support the athletes, and support the ambition of the athlete group, was paramount. The rationale behind funding in 2022 was there. We did that and we also had commitments from Rowing Ireland that the issues would be addressed. They did arise again and we-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but may I interrupt?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, Sport Ireland gave commitments on funding to Rowing Ireland in 2022 on the basis that it would change things in the future, despite nothing having changed in all the years in between.
Mr. Paul McDermott:
When we engaged with Rowing Ireland following an alert from the clinical psychologist, we were very clear with the organisation on what our expectation was and how it would address the issues that were raised. We got reassurances that the things we asked for were being done. We did a lot in that period to move things forward, ensuring that the drive for the funding was around the increase in the number of athletes and the requirements of both the existing athlete cohort and the new ones coming through. There was a huge expansion in the programme. Every athlete deserves the support that is available.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There is a duty of care on Sport Ireland in providing funding on behalf of the taxpayer to monitor that situation. This was back in 2022. We are here today, in January 2026, and Sport Ireland did not do that. It continued to fund an organisation that was not implementing the changes it was asked to implement.
Mr. Paul McDermott:
I acknowledge to the Deputy and the committee that, notwithstanding multiple attempted interventions and meetings, by April 2024, we had reached the point whereby we had to escalate things to a funding conversation. As we said at the beginning, that is not our preference. We believed we could get these things done without recourse to a funding conversation but by 2024 we had come to the point where that conversation was required.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I also want to get an answer from Rowing Ireland, but there have been a number of issues and they have all had to be dealt with in here under the remit of Sport Ireland. As a monitoring organisation, it needs to take a strong look at the way things have been dealt with because there are multiple issues, and it has taken this Oireachtas committee to highlight all the concerns and get things changed.
In this regard, there is an issue with the monitoring of the organisations. Otherwise, the witnesses probably would not be in here as often.
Could Mr McWilliams indicate what the cases cost?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Not the current cases; the previous ones. I understand that one has been settled. What did it cost?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What is the excess?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few questions. I do not believe we would be here discussing this if a lady sitting in the Gallery called Monika, whom we all have known for many years, had not gone to our former colleague and former TD Brendan Griffin. Questions were asked as a result of her doing so. Also, I do not believe we would be discussing it if it were not for Paul Kimmage. I have had so many people on to me in the past month. Frankly, the number has been incredible. I need very short answers to my questions.
Dr. May should note I am now really concerned about Sport Ireland. I obviously have concerns about Rowing Ireland. There is nobody here who held responsibility before 2023. I have a genuine concern about Sport Ireland’s mandate but I also have a concern about it as an organisation. In this regard, I am going to outline some issues. I believe the organisation’s mandate covers more than what has been evident in this scenario.
In replying to this committee’s queries, could the witnesses provide a chronological list of all the meetings between Rowing Ireland and Sport Ireland from 2020 and who attended?
I cannot get find the date, but after the reports by Paul Kimmage started to emerge, the CEO of Rowing Ireland, Ms Michelle Carpenter, stated the following in an email:
We are monitoring media coverage closely. Apart from a request received an hour ago from Off The Ball there were no further media queries. I also followed up yesterday with Sport Ireland [Paul McDermott], and we may explore further collaboration with them during the week regarding next steps and actions.
I presume that is an accurate statement.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There was no communication at all in relation to this whole issue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Did Ms Carpenter and Mr. McDermott talk about the issue that had been brought up by Paul Kimmage?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What does Mr. McDermott mean by that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry, but the answer should be quick.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Could Dr. May clarify on behalf of Sport Ireland whether there has been any engagement on these issues with Rowing Ireland between when the articles started appearing and the appearance at this committee?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not sure whether that is concerning or not.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fine.
Mr. McDermott said funding was stopped in July 2024. Was that the middle of the Olympics?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
The last line of the letter from Dr. May to Michelle Carpenter, dated 12 July 2024, stated that in light of recent developments, Sport Ireland wished to advise that the first tranche of 2024 high-performance impact funding would not be released at the time. It stated that Sport Ireland would need to be satisfied that all written commitments from Rowing Ireland would be reflected in meaningful action over the following weeks and months.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Mr. McDermott. Sharing that with us is very helpful. However, it would have been even more helpful if it had been shared with us in advance. Dr. May should note that, please. Frankly, it is ridiculous that the information was not shared with the committee prior to this meeting. It is pretty important information. Why was it not shared?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We cannot request something that we do not know exists.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is pretty interlinked. I asked earlier whether there was a link with the fact that the director of high performance was going to be leaving.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Very quickly.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There was no cultural review after Tokyo. There was a review internally and a review through the witnesses’ organisation. Was Sport Ireland not concerned that the review committed to was not conducted?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In 2017, when the six athletes wrote a letter stating they did not want the director of high performance in position anymore, did it not raise any concerns?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is more good information. When was Sport Ireland made aware of it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was it only when it came out in the media?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is very interesting.
Mr. McDermott spoke at the Rowing Ireland AGM in 2022. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The minutes state:
The Chair then invited Paul McDermott of Sport Ireland to speak. Paul congratulated Rowing Ireland on its achievements. He thanked the clubs, high-performance team, and athletes, for their successes; and the staff, the Chair and the Board for the work ... Paul McDermott said that Sport Ireland had worked diligently with the Rowing Ireland Board and Executive to resolve issues that arose. He did not want to over dramatize events during the year but indicated at this stage there was no reason not to continue working collaboratively.
Therefore, there were issues of which Mr. McDermott was aware. It was well known that there were issues.
We also had the scenario in which an athlete charter committed to by the CEO of Rowing Ireland disappeared off the face of the planet prior to this. Are the minutes of the meeting a fair reflection of Mr. McDermott’s views at the time?
Mr. Paul McDermott:
We were working daily, or on a very regular basis, with the leadership of Rowing Ireland to address the issues that arose. With regard to the audience there – I cannot recall exactly – I do recognise that I would say something like what was said in public because there were a variety of people in the room who needed assurance that we were addressing issues that had arisen. Not everybody would be familiar with everything. However, if it is there, it is there.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not kidding when I say that the amount of documentation I have had to go through in the past few weeks has been phenomenal. This was literally the case even when walking in here, because we were getting more documentation and opening statements at that point. I am not buying that Sport Ireland, because of its remit, could not have intervened. That is something that is being used, and I do not think it is a completely honest assessment. Looking at this – I came to this without any knowledge of it – I note that enough flags were raised in relation to a whole range of issues down through the years, particularly from 2021 on, for Sport Ireland to have made an intervention. It finally happened in July 2024. The matter is concerning.
We will have a quick round now. It will be one minute for a question and an answer. It will be 30 seconds and we will figure it out.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What we have heard today is unbelievable. Nobody is taking responsibility. It is obvious that there is so much tension between Rowing Ireland and Sport Ireland it is ridiculous. There is no line of communication; absolutely nothing. At the heart of everything we spoke about today is player or athlete welfare. They have been let down. Yet, when we ask them to apologise, they say they do not want to sidestep. There is more sidestepping here than you would see on "Dancing with the Stars". The two groups should cop on to themselves. They get significant funding from the State. They are in a position of responsibility. They have a responsibility to every athlete in the State. They are making a mockery of this Oireachtas committee. I am a proud Irishman and sportsman and I am embarrassed today at the carry-on of Sport Ireland and Rowing Ireland. Athletes are being let down. They are at the heart of everything that is here. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for both groups. I raise the Sport Ireland sports strategy 2023 to 2027. Did Ms Williams have a role in compiling that in her previous role in SIA Partners?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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SIA Partners did not have any involvement in that strategy.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would like to focus on the athletes themselves. What is being done about the athletes and former athletes? I was in the hospitality background. If there was an issue of bullying or a welfare issue, you would have an inquiry within the business. If need be,you would take legal action. Is legal action being taken against the persons accused of the welfare issues?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask the witnesses to be careful in their answers. I do not want to hear any names or anything.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I did not put any names into it. Is there legal action relating to people who have been accused of inflicting welfare issues on the actual athletes?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Be very careful in how you answer this, please. In fact, if you do not want to answer, it is fine.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thought it was a simple "Yes"-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What Mr. McWilliams may want to do is, within five working days, send in a submission, if there is something.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is a simple question. Is legal action being taken? It is a simple "Yes" or "No" question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We do not need to know details.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is fair enough. That answers that question. Mr. McWilliams can disregard my request.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I do not have time to quote some remarks from the athletes at length, which I intended to do. My first question is to Dr. May. Does she accept that the athletes-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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You only have one question.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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In that case, I will ask all groups represented here whether they continue to have confidence in the chief executive of Rowing Ireland, given all of the evidence and discussion that we have heard here today?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Good question.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Stonewalling.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is no need for that.
Dr. Úna May:
From Sport Ireland's point of view, I would describe it as a qualified confidence in the chief executive. We have been disappointed with the response in this particular issue, but, as an organisation, there is growing membership and many additional new programmes for young female rowers. There has been a lot of progress in broader terms within the organisation but we are very disappointed in the handling of this issue.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We have all received a lot of correspondence from a lot of people with serious concerns. What is their level of engagement with each of those people? I am sure they know exactly who I am speaking about. What is that level of engagement and action - without naming anybody?
Dr. Úna May:
Mr. John Donnelly and Mr. Paul McDermott would be the ones most closely linked with individuals. In general, individual athletes have not approach Sport Ireland specifically in general terms. Where Mr. Donnelly, for example, has engaged with Rowing Ireland and the high-performance programme in his visits to the high-performance centre, he will have engaged with individuals.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is Sport Ireland open to them engaging with them?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Has Rowing Ireland got ongoing engagements with people who have these serious concerns?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I will pick up where I left off. The reporting avenues for athletes is the nub of it. The piece Ms Williams spoke about is still organised by Rowing Ireland. I need to say something. Previous surveys by the former high-performance director were done and were supposed to be anonymous but then athletes were asked to change their answers. We have to look at an independent inquiry process and reporting structure. I will ask everyone one final question. Mr. Donnelly has acknowledged this already, so the question is for everybody else. Would they agree a truly independent, external, safe reporting system is needed for our athletes going forward?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Donnelly has already said "Yes", but I would be interested to know about everybody else.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Exactly, but I am asking everybody else. Mr. Donnelly is the only person who has acknowledged that.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I think Ms O'Connor said it in her opening remarks.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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NGBs are companies limited by guarantee, so we would need to look at money. We are looking at safeguarding. That is what we are talking about. Would Dr. May agree?
Dr. Úna May:
This is exactly why Sport Ireland funds the athlete support manager within the federation. We asked and have engaged very closely with the federation. We are grateful to it for taking this responsibility. In order to make it independent of Sport Ireland and the NGBs, we have asked the federation to support this. We are very happy with it.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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We need more of those as well.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is just not realistic.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Like most people, the first time I came across these issues was Paul Kimmage's article. From listening to everything today, what we seem to have is that concerns clearly were raised by the athletes within Rowing Ireland, that there were sufficient concerns on the part of Sport Ireland to move to a scale where funding was threatened. I know Sport Ireland does not do that lightly. There are serious concerns there on the part of Sport Ireland about how Rowing Ireland was governed. I am very concerned, obviously, and this has been expressed already, that a review was not carried out post-Tokyo. It does not seem that the athletes' concerns were taken on board. From my questioning today, it seems that there is an assumption that because the director of high performance has changed, that this has led to a change in culture. I am not convinced in that.
I have two questions which are related. Does Sport Ireland believe the culture in Rowing Ireland has now changed? I am conscious of Dr. May's qualified support for the chief executive. The second question is whether anybody wants to dispute the accuracy of any element of Paul Kimmage's article in the Sunday Independent.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Donnelly. Did he have had concerns around the culture that existed prior to that change?
Mr. John Donnelly:
I did have concerns. To take Senator Comyn's point, I tried to work with the performance director to, rather than mitigate the results, actually make the changes around athlete welfare, multidisciplinary teams, selection policies, welfare, etc., that is, to try to change all that, reflecting best practice that I had seen on a wider basis.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Donnelly happy with the progress being made by the current team at Rowing Ireland?
Mr. John Donnelly:
I was not then. I am happy with the progress the programme is making now. It is not a straight line. There will be setbacks, but they are making progress. The approach of the current head of high performance in seeking counsel, taking advice and not simply making it an ego contest is having a strong effect but we have to keep going.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Does anybody dispute the accuracy of Paul Kimmage's article in the Sunday Independent?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but there was nothing inaccurate in the article.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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At the end of the day, we are speaking about athletes who were people who were not treated properly. Some of this left a lasting effect on them. I am very supportive of the proposals put in by the federation, as outlined at the end of its opening statement. I have every confidence in the federation as an organisation, from my experience of it over the years. I have been in here to lead on some of those projects with regard to welfare and safeguarding policies, so I am very supportive of that. However, from listening here today, I do not have the same confidence in either Rowing Ireland or Sport Ireland. Opportunities were given but at the end of the day, the witnesses agreed that all the information in that article was correct. If it was correct, what happened and how our premium athletes were treated are unacceptable. Some of them are here today and others are watching in.
This meeting is coming to an end in a number of minutes. Rowing Ireland and Sport Ireland need to apologise to those people. I do not care that they are going to try to hide under something to not say it or will use other words. Those athletes need an apology. They represented Ireland. They represented us, the people of Ireland, and wore the green of Ireland on national and international stages. The organisations accepted that they were treated wrongly. I firmly believe they deserve an apology and here is the place to do it and not skirt around it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Do the witnesses want to answer that any differently than they did before?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I asked a specific question. I did not ask about the opening statement. I said that this meeting is coming to an end and I asked whether those athletes deserved an apology from the organisations, which are State organisations funded by the State to look after the welfare of our athletes. They deserve an apology. Are the organisations prepared to give it to them?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Going forward, but-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is about what happened in the past, however. Deputy Collins cannot ask questions but if he just wants to say something, he has 15 seconds.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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I fully respect that I am not a member of the committee and I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me in. I come from the land of rowing - west Cork. I have seen what Gary and Paul O'Donovan and others have done, the inhumane efforts they have had to pull off and the extraordinary feats they have done. If this article that Paul Kimmage has written is true, apologies are definitely not even good enough here. All these athletes are going to extraordinary efforts. I see it on the river when I go to Skibbereen. On a Saturday morning, you could see them at 5 a.m., 6 a.m. and 7 a.m. and it is the same that evening, mostly in a voluntary situation, so to be treated like this is appalling.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Today was a quite extraordinary meeting before it ever started and it got better. There were huge learnings for us as a committee in relation to this as well.
I will make some concluding points. As we had no one here from Rowing Ireland who was there prior to 2023, we were very limited in the questioning. Anything that it proposes going forward is obviously a matter for it, but it is concerning that while it is putting in place an independent process, Sport Ireland has another process. We are sitting here listening to all of this and Sport Ireland really needs to engage, based on this MOU, to make sure that the people who are doing this are not picked by it. I do not think there is any way, and we will say this as a committee straight, that athletes can be picked by it because they do not deserve to be picked by it. Sport Ireland might bear that in mind as what, collectively, we all agree on.
Second, from a Sport Ireland perspective, it is very interesting that Dr. May gave qualified support to the CEO; it is just to have that noted. There is no doubt she will be asked about that from now on. That is a matter for her but the period from 2021 to 2024, in particular, is deeply concerning. As Chair of the sports committee, I do not buy the fact that Sport Ireland could not intervene. I do not buy that the parameters by which it operates are not wide enough to be able to deal with these issues. It is very concerning that they were not dealt with.
In relation to how this was brought about, it was brought about by some very brave people who the committee wants to acknowledge. It was also brought about by good journalism. I also acknowledge all the people who have been in touch with us in relation to this very sensitive issue. The committee will consider all this evidence and all the documentation. If the witnesses feel that there is anything else we need to know about or any documentation we require, and let us remember I have also asked for quite a bit of documentation, I request that they supply it within the next week. The committee will be making some decisions and some recommendations. We do not have any powers outside of doing that but we will discuss those recommendations and what we will put forward to the Department and the Minister based on what we heard today. We do not rule out having other meetings on this but in the short term, it is important the committee makes some recommendations. We cannot make findings but we can make recommendations based on what we heard.
I thank all the witnesses for their attendance today. I thank them for the way in which they have come here. I also thank all of those who are in the Gallery, the media and those who made long journeys here. I know a number of people made very long journeys here today. I will conclude our public engagement. While all the witnesses and people of the Gallery leave, we will now go into private session. I remind colleagues we have to have a bit of a private session and a chat after this for a short period.