Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 January 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Equine Passports: Horse Sport Ireland
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Chairman, would it be in order to ask a question before we start?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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No, I need to go through the privilege first and we will do the questions then. No apologies have been received. Before we begin I bring to people's attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.
Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against any person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in public meetings from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed. At the moment there are not any members online.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask you, as Cathaoirleach of the agriculture committee, if we are allowed ask, or could we ask, that the chairperson of Bord Bia come to our meeting next Wednesday? It is of absolute importance.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will totally second that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Steady on. This was already discussed at the private meeting and it is already in train, in that we have asked them about attending.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Great, so he will be here next Wednesday.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That is already in train. That was discussed yesterday by the committee.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I did not know that. That is great.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Can I ask, a Chathaoirligh, in light of the fact Mercosur is going before the EU courts, whether Ireland can have legal representation to represent our stance there?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will focus on the passports today. We can raise Mercosur under any other business or in the private meeting so we can set out the agenda for a forthcoming meeting.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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This is a matter of real urgency.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy might want to tell his brother that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, you-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I did not interrupt Deputy Kenny any time I came in here. He can talk whenever he wants. This is a matter of urgency.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy might want to tell his brother that. He is a junior Minister in the Department of agriculture.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, you can write to the committee, we can take advice from the OPLA on it and we can-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am raising it here and now. Deputy Aird is seconding me.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I second.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am supporting that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We can raise it with the OPLA and then take it on from there.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Who in the OPLA?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The legal service available to the committee. The parliamentary legal-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have the ball thrown in now, and this is a serious matter. We must have legal representation in Europe defending our case and making our case for us regarding Mercosur.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We can raise the matter. We have the opportunity to raise matters like this at the private meeting as well in order that we can set out to contact the OPLA and get the various advice on this. We can do that.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, I support Deputy Healy-Rae.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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What about your MEPs voting the other way, lads? Jesus, you will have to-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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-----get your own houses in order.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Chair-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Members, please. We need to move on-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There are not enough horses in here to be ridden at the one time. You are bringing in a few more. No pun intended to the witnesses.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Chair, will you let us know as soon as you know about next Wednesday and whether the chair of Bord Bia is coming?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As soon as we know, and it is-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. That is grand. I am happy with that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Now, the agenda for today's session-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Chair, on a point of information-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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No. Please. We need to move on with the agenda because-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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There are people who are interested in the agenda of the meeting, and I do not dispute what has been said. It is really important, and I support the Deputy on it, but it is important also that we move on. That item should be placed on the next agenda and we should work as hard as we can on that issue, a hundred per cent.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The reason I asked for it-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputy Lawless.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I take the point. I agree with Deputy Healy-Rae.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is what I wanted to say. We had a private meeting yesterday and it was a very good meeting, but now we are after having our private meeting again in public. That is not right, in fairness.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on with the agenda. Thank you, members. The agenda for today's meeting is equine passports. The committee will hear from Horse Sport Ireland. The witnesses are Mr. Denis Duggan, chief executive, Ms Avalon Everett, chief operations officer, and Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding. Tá fáilte romhaibh. Your opening statements have been submitted. I will give you five minutes to read through the submission and we will move on then to questions and answers with the members. Any part that is not completed after the five minutes will be on the website of the committee anyway, so the public will have an opportunity to read over it.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an choiste as an deis labhairt os a gcomhair. Tá ról lárnach agus tábhachtach ag foras Capallspóirt Éireann, nó Horse Sport Ireland i mBéarla, i saol agus i bhféiniúlacht an náisiúin, agus is mór an onóir domsa agus do m'fhoireann an obair sin a léiriú don choiste. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to appear before them to discuss equine passports. As CEO in Horse Sport Ireland, I am delighted to be joined by my colleagues Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding, and our chief operating officer, Ms Avalon Everett. We will outline the important role Horse Sport Ireland plays in our equine industry, provide an overview of our passporting process and reaffirm our commitment to continuous improvement.
Ireland is a horse nation. That status is not inherited; it is earned, renewed and vigorously defended in competition arenas and showgrounds across every county in Ireland and internationally. Our purpose, as an organisation, is to lead the equestrian sector and to enable it to fulfil its potential. Our work spans breeding, sport, participation, coaching, safeguarding, high performance, governance and passporting.
Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, is the national governing body for equestrian sport, recognised by the International Equestrian Federation, known as FEI, and national sporting authorities: Sport Ireland, the Olympic Federation of Ireland and Sport Northern Ireland. We are a 32-county body. HSI operates as an umbrella body for more than 50 different organisations. Twenty-eight of them are formally affiliated to HSI and work across the sector. Sport Ireland recognises Horse Sport Ireland as the national governing body and, as such, our affiliates are the equivalent of clubs in other sports. We provide a national structure that supports grassroots participation, volunteer effort, breeders rearing the best sport horses, and athletes challenging at the top of our sport globally. It may surprise some members to know that our Irish sport horse studbook is one of the top studbooks in the world for event horses and in the top seven worldwide studbooks for showjumping. Irish athletes in HSI's high performance programme regularly feature in the top 100 globally ranked athletes, and our HSI showjumping team is regularly in the world number one spot.
By way of historic background, Horse Sport Ireland was established through a joint initiative of the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, following broad consultation and the recommendations of the Dowling report on governance structures for the sector. That decision in 2006 was about bringing breeding and sport into one body so the industry could function as a single national effort. Due to this single-body structure, we are globally a unique organisation among other national equine federations. This gives HSI an exceptional understanding of the full life cycle of sport horses, from genetics and breeding through to production and competition pathways for horses and human athletes right up to the Olympics.
Since 1 January 2008, HSI has operated as the governing body for equestrian sport on the island, with key responsibilities ranging from delivering high-performance Olympic programmes supported financially by Sport Ireland to maintaining the Irish sport horse studbook and Irish draught studbooks, among others, and issuing identity documents on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and providing grants to the sector on behalf of the Department.
Horse passports are important identity, traceability, welfare protection and compliance documents for the sector. The transition to Horse Source, our online e-passporting system launched in mid-2024, came with implementation challenges and delays. I want to say plainly here that we recognise the disruption this caused breeders and owners, particularly in a time-sensitive market where a passport can determine whether a foal can be sold, can travel or can be shown. Those delays arose due to issues in data migration during the transfer from one old system to another, and a phenomenally positive digital uptake of Horse Source by breeders, which was not expected at the immediate launch. To put it in context, when the system went live, we received 65% of the annual volume of applications within a six-week window. That is something that would normally happen over a six-month period. This level of immediate adoption exceeded anticipation and strained our capacity.
Despite the initial delays in 2024, it is important to recognise that the development of our new e-passport digital passporting system, a complex IT project, was developed on time and under budget in under seven months. Horse Source is working extremely well, user adoption has been extraordinary and performance has improved markedly.
It is fair to state that in 2025 our customers have benefited from substantially improved service levels and turn-around times. They are probably the best they have been in ten years. Those outputs were based on processing efficiencies with our new platform, together with our dedicated team of staff and continued IT functionality implementation and improvement. In 2025 over 80% of all applications were submitted digitally via Horse Source, and less than 20% still arrive on paper.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. There is an extensive opening statement, and I know members will have had the opportunity to read over it. I need to move on to questions. We will start with six minutes per member. I call Senator Boyhan.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Deputy Willie Aird for allowing me to take the slot he had. I welcome Mr. Denis Duggan, Dr. Sonja Egan and Ms Avalon Everett, and indeed Mr. Mike Bray, who is in the meeting too, from Horse Sport Ireland. Mr. Duggan has given a comprehensive statement. We must keep the focus. We are here to talk about the passports and the challenges around all that. It involves IT and technologies. I thank Mr. Duggan for his overview of HSI's work. That is important. HSI provided that overview to us in writing and we have had time to consider it, and that is important. It is very informative and consistent with HSI's messaging and work. I acknowledge that. It is important.
I have just a few comments and then some questions. Perhaps I will set them out first and then allow the witnesses to come back to get better use of our time. It is important that Mr. Duggan makes the point that Sport Ireland recognises HSI as the national governing body. That is something that maybe not everyone knows. As such, its affiliates are equivalent to clubs in other sports. That is really important. It provides the national structures in terms of breeders rearing the best sport horses, etc. The witnesses might just touch on that. It involves both athletics and horses. We are an agricultural committee and we know the significance of horse breeding and the equine business in terms of our area of responsibility on this committee.
Mr. Duggan touched also in his statement on the Dowling report on the governance structures of the sector. It is important that the people, the public, all stakeholders have full confidence in the governance structures around any organisation, and HSI is no different.
Mr. Duggan might just touch on the Dowling report and how the recommendations are progressing.
Mr. Duggan also talked about the horse passport and the importance of identity traceability. It was interesting that Mr. Duggan mentioned welfare protection in that sentence but I am not too sure if HSI has any remit for welfare. He might touch on that. Does it have any remit in terms of equine welfare? We have seen controversial coverage in the past few years in the media about the equine industry generally. The public at large do not have an appetite for any abuses of animal welfare - why should they? - and neither do we. Mr. Duggan might just touch on if HSI has a statutory remit for that, and if not, should it have? Would it like to have it? Is it something Mr. Duggan has a particular opinion or view on? With all of that come resource requirements, and that is an important point.
Mr. Duggan mentioned that, in 2025, 80% of all applications were submitted digitally. Has he any ambition to make that 100%? Are there possible downsides to that? I am sure he has looked at them. Not everyone has the same level of digital literacy but Mr. Duggan might just touch on that because it is an issue he raised.
Mr. Duggan also said that HSI is waiting for approximately 800 DNA samples to be returned by breeders. Until these samples are returned, Mr. Duggan said they cannot proceed with those applications. That has to be a concern and how can we reduce the timelines involved there? He might just touch on that because that is really important.
I think Mr. Duggan's commentary was fair. He said there were difficulties with the IT transition. That is a fair comment. I think that is honest, frank and mature of him to say that but I think we are moving on. Of course, HSI will endeavour to develop its IT systems. I do not know how advanced it is in that regard. How is all that progressing?
There are a lot of issues there but there is confidence in Mr. Duggan's organisation. I was at the horse show and I met many of the witnesses. Indeed, family members of mine were competing at the RDS. I picked up the positivity towards the organisation that was very much on the ground during the horse show. I wanted to pass that on to Mr. Duggan because I have not had the opportunity to say that to him. It is positive. He might just touch on some of those issues I have raised.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I thank the Senator. On the Dowling report, it was released in 2006 and we have had a number of governance reviews since. Indecon carried out a review in 2017 and further changes came out of that. The Senator will recall from our previous visits to this committee that we also carried out a review across 2023, led by board members. Professor Niamh Brennan, an eminent expert and probably one of the country's best experts in corporate governance, was on our board and led that review. That led to various reforms that have now been implemented.
In terms of welfare protection, the Senator is right that I referenced in my opening statement that the equine passport that we issue and many others issue is the bedrock of equine traceability. The Senator touched on it in his question that HSI does not have a statutory role in welfare. We do a number of things in a soft sense. As I mentioned in the statement, we provide grant aid on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to the sector. We use that grant aid to make sure we are encouraging best practice in terms of welfare. We also place very high importance on horse welfare among our teams and squads.
We have been before this committee with Horse Racing Ireland discussing the abuses of the past in relation to the abattoir. They are an abomination and a slight on the sport and have no place in it. As an organisation, we do not have a statutory remit. We are not a regulator, as we told the committee at that time. The Senator asked my views on it but it is ultimately a matter for both the Department and the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Senator Boyhan mentioned 80% of the passport applications that we receive today are digital. We absolutely have the ambition to grow that. We do that through pricing. We incentivise online applications by way of a lower price and 80% of applications across 2025 were digital. In line with the digital public services plan for 2030 to have 90% of transactions by the public done online, we would absolutely like to grow our online share. It is much more efficient for us an organisation but, more importantly, it is much more efficient for our customers and breeders.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the delegation and representatives from Horse Sport Ireland. It would be remiss of a Fianna Fáil Senator not to name check Councillor Mike Bray who is in the Visitor's Gallery as he is one of my electorate. As we have seen with Senator Boyhan, the time goes very quickly, so I will ask questions of Mr. Duggan and not give any long introduction on the basis that people are tuning in today to hear him and not me.
I need a little bit of an explanation for my own information on the online passport. It is an online application but is the actual book that we are all used to that is issued? Is it straightforward? Can it all be done online once the DNA is submitted? At the outset, I should have put on the record my involvement in the horse business but I am involved with thoroughbreds so there is a difference, as we know here, but that is just for the record. I am a veteran of the previous committee and Horse Sport Ireland was in before. There was a backlog and horror stories, to coin a phrase, of waiting of times for passports. How close did HSI get to catching up before the changeover? I know there were IT issues with the changeover. Is there still a backlog? Is there an issue where HSI is dealing with a backlog for the paper applications and working away in conjunction on the electronic applications?
We received some correspondence when people became aware HSI was coming in and I have a couple of questions from that. There is a lot of discontent out there about a €45 levy that has been placed on all Irish competitors in international events. What is the reasoning of this and where is the money being used? What is the purpose of that money and for what is it being used for? There is also a rumour out there that HSI might be taking over the stud book for Connemara ponies. Mr. Duggan might address that as well as rumours are not very good things to let spread.
The last question is about money. Is there much money in hand for people who have paid for passports who, because of the backlog, may still not have received their passports?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I thank the Senator. I will first address the rumour about the Connemara Pony Breeders' Society. There is absolutely no truth in that. There are rumours circulating online that HSI is about to take over the Connemara stud book. There is absolutely no truth in it. The society is one of our affiliates and we work very closely with it on a number of initiatives, including staff training. I want to put that to bed.
In terms of the online passport, I appreciate the Senator will be familiar with the thoroughbred passport that Weatherbys operate. Ours is quite similar. It involves an online application. The physical book is still issued in the same way the physical thoroughbred book is still issued as it is a requirement, as it currently stands under EU animal health law, that the paper has primacy under that law. There is digital copy and a full digital record available on our system.
There is no backlog today. A total of 99% of all applications we receive, particularly when we have received the DNA results, are issued, done and gone. When we have received the DNA, we issue passports in seven to eight days as it currently stands. We have been doing that for the vast majority of 2025. I might bring in Dr. Egan on that in a moment.
In terms of the €45 levy, that is a high performance levy and an entry levy. As the governing body, we enter teams and athletes in shows and events all over the world. We had a situation where we had an irregular or inconsistent funding source for high-performance sport. We are funded to the tune of about 80% of the programme costs by Sport Ireland but it is a co-investment and it is a requirement of Sport Ireland that the sport makes a contribution. In our model, we were dependent on affiliates and there has 15 years of inconsistency of funding. As the governing body, the obligation was on us to put a stable funding stream in place. It is regrettable that is the situation. On the make-up of the €45 levy, it is €36 before VAT and €45 inclusive of VAT. It is solely for high performance and to fund our Olympic teams on their journey, right from youth level to senior level.
I will bring my colleague Ms Avalon Everett in on that as well.
Ms Avalon Everett:
The levy is exclusively to raise the 20% to unlock this Sport Ireland investment into the high-performance programme. All moneys raised will go back into the programmes, from jumping right through to para-dressage and youth to senior. It funds the pathway and it is a necessary requirement at this stage, as Mr. Duggan has said. With the comparative numbers we have in terms of entry, it is per horse for event not per start, and on the basis of the entries for 2024 and 2025, we expect to raise €240,000.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Everett says per horse for event. If I am a showjumper, I am in Dublin or wherever and I am in an event on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, do I pay €45 for every event or just one €45?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so it covers all classes in the event.
Ms Avalon Everett:
Yes. The levy will be directly invested back into the programme. That is the key principle here. It will be applied equally to all athletes from youth right through to five-star athletes. It will not exclude any athletes in terms of ranking or any profile. It will be applied fairly and proportionately. As Mr. Duggan has said, it is really to solve the irregular and the probably inconsistent level of funding we were getting from our affiliate partners. Sport Ireland had indicated to us that we had to find a model that worked given the fact we have Los Angeles in 2028 and in 2032 we will have Brisbane, which is quite a distance away. We will be flying horses halfway across the world. We need to ensure that the programme is sustainable, in particular to meet our objectives of podium finishes, especially in LA, across our disciplines.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the speakers for being here today. What measures has Horse Sport Ireland put in place to ensure the equine passport system is robust, accurate and compliant with EU and national regulations, particularly regarding identification and traceability?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
I thank Deputy Aird. The EU legislation has a model format for passports. All of our passports follow that model format. Some other additional security measures we have on the passports include a rivet on the side to help minimise and mitigate as much as possible tampering with the pages inside it. We have security paper and we have holograms. On top of that, all of our stud book passports are DNA verified. A number of years ago I began the project to move all of our horses onto a DNA testing system called SNPs. Those members who are familiar with cattle and sheep will understand that this is genotyping in the cattle and sheep world. We are a world leader in that area. This has allowed us to build a genetic database. Straight away we can identify if someone submits a hair sample that is duplicated already in the database to mitigate that kind of duplication.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What is the average processing time for equine passports and backlogs? What actions are being taken to ensure passports are issued within the statutory timeframe from when the person makes the application?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
First of all, it is important to realise that, in the entire process, we control about 11 days of time. Everything else is outside of our control. I would have run through some of those in the opening statement. When a breeder makes an application online, we issue a full kit, which is a marking chart and a DNA kit. When an application comes in today, that full kit is generally in the post by tomorrow. There is a one- to two-day turnaround time before that is in the post to the breeder. It then depends on how long it takes the breeder to get their vet out, for the vet to take a hair sample, and for the vet to mark up that marking chart and send it back to us. We record the fact that we have received it and we send it to the lab. We have a daily collection with the lab. That is one day. Then the sample takes an average of about 17 days in the lab. When we get the results, we are issuing the results, printing the passport and posting it in about eight days. As it currently stands there is no backlog and they are the average timelines.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How does Horse Sport Ireland work with the Department of agriculture and the enforcement authorities to address the non-compliance with passport requirements? Are existing penalties effective and a deterrent for those people?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
First and foremost, we work very closely with the Department of agriculture. Any changes in terms of security measures and so on would all be approved by the Department. For example, when we moved to rivets, to microchipping and to all of those things back over the last decades, these were all approved by the Department.
Enforcement and lack of compliance, and this goes back to the Senator Boyhan's question, ultimately is a matter for the Department of agriculture.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is it not in Horse Sport Ireland's remit at all?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Would Horse Sport Ireland ever have to make complaints about horses?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
We do. A lot of them are tragic cases, for example, if there is a breakdown in a relationship with a husband and wife, or friends own a horse through a syndicate and people have fallen out. Somebody has a passport and somebody else has the horse. Ultimately, the law requires that both are together. Those are the types of scenarios.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. What progress has been made in modernising the equine passport system, including digital IDs and the data sharing with the Department and other bodies, to reduce errors and improve traceability?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
We introduced our e-passport on a build basis. That began in 2024 and launched from there. We are one of only a few sport horse stud books in the world to have an e-passport. That brought it in line with Weatherbys' thoroughbreds. In that regard Ireland would be the envy of the world, and it is the same in terms of genetics. Ireland is the only country to bring forward genotyping of all sport horses in the population.
In terms of the EU passport and the EU legislation, the primacy is still with the printed document so-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is Weatherbys the only organisation to do that? When Horse Sport Ireland sends off the samples, they go to Weatherbys. Is that right?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is it the only organisation that can do that?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We do the same with cattle. What is the ratio of what is approved? Would there be any sent back? When we are doing samples, sometimes we miss the sample and it has to go back again.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is enough for us.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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When they come back and they go back to the owner of the horse, does the owner of the horse have to pay again the second time?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is what I am saying. We would not have to do that when we are doing BVD samples. The second one would be free. I only ask. Is that not a little unfair? Is it the case that the person would have made the mistake? Is that what Dr. Egan is saying to me?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
I cannot say specifically. Depending on what arises in the case, there may be more samples required but the typical issue is that the hair is cut, which means that there is actually no DNA in the hair sample. That is not something we or the lab can control. We did an education campaign back when we moved to SNPs where we engaged with vets on making sure that samples were taken correctly.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and I thank them for their opening statements. I will go back to the passport application process. Unfortunately, I have a lot of vets and horse owners concerned about the length of time it is taking. I have been told it is still taking up to six to 12 months of a delay in having applications dealt with. If that is the situation, it is serious. I believe that other organisations can do this within a matter of weeks, whether that is true or not. Maybe Horse Sport Ireland will have an update on that to see what is happening.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
That is not the current case. Back two or three years ago it would have been approximately four months, but today the facts and figures I have outlined are that passports, when we have the DNA sample back, are being issued within seven to eight days. We are turning around the marking charts within one to two days. I should also say that the breeders have made remarkable changes as well. If I go back three or four years ago, when we would issue a marking chart and a DNA kit to a breeder, it was taking on average 134 days before that marking chart came back to Horse Sport Ireland or the lab. That was four months. Today, that is down to 25 days. Breeders have made substantial changes themselves. They are much more responsive. We have made changes as well to encourage people.
There would have been issues in the past around sales, whereby people would only start to register a foal born in April or May in September for an October sale. The DNA test alone would mean that the passport could not be created in time. We have pulled deadlines back into the summer, to the end of August, to try to incentivise breeders to get their registrations done earlier. It is worth pointing out, given that most people in the room would be very familiar with the cattle industry, that cattle owners have to register a calf within 28 days but a foal can be registered up to a year after its birth. That, in itself has created bad practices within the industry. However, I am not blaming breeders, and to be fair to them, they have made remarkable changes themselves. The parts of the equation that they control have substantially improved.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Duggan is saying that owners have up to a year to register ponies. If that timeline were shortened, would that speed up the process and then people would not have these concerns, or is this the fault of the vets and the owners themselves for not getting the information in to Horse Sport Ireland?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
What we are seeing now is that from the time we issue the foal kit, the average length of time that it takes for that foal kit to come back to us is 25 days. We are talking there about less than a month, on average, but bear in mind that the vet has to come out and so on. There are logistics that people have to manage as well. From a traceability perspective, the longer an animal is unregistered, the worse it is for any industry. We all recognise that. I should also say that we have taken steps to dissuade people from registering late foals. Again, we would have a portion of foals that are actually a year, two, three, four and in some cases, five or six years old that are being registered. That is against the law. Breeders need to register an animal within the first year, but there is a quagmire here in that the legal obligation on us, as a passport issuing authority, the same as all other such authorities, is to register animals. We have used price as an incentive to try to encourage people to register in the first year. In Weatherbys, for example, as Senator Daly will be well aware, if a thoroughbred is registered late, the price goes up dramatically. A four or five-year-old thoroughbred will cost €1,500 to register. In the same way, we have used price to dissuade people from registering their animals late. We are trying to encourage breeders to register early.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does a delay in registration put more pressure on the system?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What is Mr. Duggan's view of the entry fee of €45 per horse? A lot of breeders are put out over that entry fee. Where does that funding go?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I think what the Deputy is referring to is similar to the earlier question from Senator Daly. That is our high-performance entry levy. That is a fee that is only charged to international athletes. There are approximately 720 internationally registered athletes that compete at shows and events all over the world. Some of those shows and events take place in Ireland, by the way. They will enter a show and the entry fee they pay to the show ranges from €300 to nearly €1,000 in some cases. We have traditionally not charged anything for that but we have introduced a fee where we are entering them into those shows and we charge €45 inclusive of VAT or €36.50 ex-VAT for that service. That is to fund our high-performance programme to make sure that our Olympic teams are prepared and ready to compete in LA and beyond.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Very good. Thanks.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I welcome the witnesses to the committee. One of the major issues in the industry today is the level of costs associated with the sport. Naturally, it is a very expensive industry but there are significant concerns around levies, passports, and the fees associated with a change of ownership. However, there is no point in discussing that until we discuss some of the issues within Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, itself. I refer to the legal disputes and the internal disputes. There have been multiple issues with employees and legal disputes. A protected disclosure was made to the Minister recently. What has all of this cost the organisation? What is the bill to date in relation to HR disputes, settlements and legal costs in the organisation?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I am talking about the last two years or three years. What was the legal cost over-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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-----the last five years, let us say.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Our agenda is on the passports and that question is not something that Mr. Duggan would have been prepared for. He has the option to answer but the business of the meeting is the passports.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The point that I am making that there are lots of costs to the members. The costs have increased and I am just trying to identify whether there is a trend in terms of legal costs relating to HR disputes. Is it the case that there have been no HR disputes over the last two years?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
There have been no HR disputes over the last two to three years. As I said, we had a number of legacy issues that had to be resolved. We have been through a number of strategic plans, for example, there have been staff changes and changes in direction over time. All of those things do come with HR costs, but in the last two to three years, there have been zero legal fees associated with any HR issues.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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In terms of the board that resigned, they cited concerns around financial mismanagement and the withholding of information from the board. What has changed in the organisation since then? Have new practices been put in place? Have steps been taken to address issues of transparency vis-à-vis the current board?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I am sorry but that is not factually correct. I am not sure where the Deputy is getting his information but that is not correct. There has never been a situation where there has been financial mismanagement. It is very important to refute that. We are dependent on our State funding. We have appropriate governance structures in place and appropriate oversight from our board as well as internal and external auditors, including auditors from the Department of agriculture and Sport Ireland. That is a gross mischaracterisation of the organisation.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I should say that it has been written by-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to recognise that the passports are the issue that we are discussing today.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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In terms of that board, has there been any internal audit or review of the issues that were raised by it? Have there been any changes made?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Members of the board resigned in November 2022. It was well documented at the time. The Minister for agriculture appointed four eminent board members in November 2022 when those members resigned, including former secretary general and former chairman of Kerry Group, Mr. Michael Dowling, who was appointed as chair, and Professor Niamh Brennan, an eminent expert in corporate governance. One of the first things the new board set about doing was reviewing the structures, internal controls and so on. Those areas in the organisation are beyond reproach.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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On the passport issue, I appreciate that a new process has been put in place but a number of individuals have reported significant delays. One individual received two passports with two separate identification numbers. Will Mr. Duggan speak to that and outline to the committee how that can happen? Has that issue in relation to passports been rectified? How many issues of that nature have occurred?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
As I said earlier in relation to passport integrity, studbook passports and DNA, we could have a case where two animals out of the same dam, or mother, are registered in the same year. That could be for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is that we allow for artificial insemination in the sport horse sector so a mare can have more than one progeny in a year. Separately, two animals might be registered in the same year because of an error. We could receive an application from an applicant that has come with a marking chart that has been marked up by a vet. The animals have two separate microchips so they are, indeed, two different animals with two separate unique equine life numbers or UELNs, but we are going off the documentation that we receive. Where we receive a marking chart where a vet has identified two different animals and we receive hair samples and they are linked to those microchips for two different animals, we will issue the passports.
That applies if they have the same year of birth and it pertains particularly to animals that have been registered outside the legal timeframe, which typically means older animals.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank Mr. Duggan for his opening statement. In regard to the issues around passports, I acknowledge, as outlined in the statement, that things have improved dramatically from where they were and a good job is being done in many aspects of this. However, when witnesses appear before the committee, we are not here to praise them but to ask questions about the issues raised with us by constituents and others. One of my serious concerns is in regard to animals for which their owners never bother getting a passport and where there are serious levels of farm mismanagement or animal neglect. Whatever we want to call it, there are serious issues in that regard. As the governing body, what role does Horse Sport Ireland have in ensuring that does not happen?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
It is an issue and it has been raised every time we have been before the committee. Where we become aware of a situation like that, our obligation is to make the Department of agriculture aware of it. Ultimately, the departmental inspectors have the right and authority to enter a farm premises or any other property to examine an animal. Unfortunately, we do not have that authority.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is Horse Sport Ireland aware of how many such instances there were in 2025, for instance? What kind of number are we talking about?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I am not aware of the number. From our engagements with Department of agriculture officials, we are aware that over the past number of years, particularly in light of some of the abuses documented in the RTÉ programme and arising out of the recommendations in the report by Professor Paddy Wall, there has been an increase in inspections.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Duggan agree he should be aware of the numbers? Is that not something his organisation should be monitoring?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a problem?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Another issue is the €45 levy, which has been mentioned. There is some concern that there was not adequate consultation before it was introduced. Will Mr. Duggan comment on that?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There was an out-of-the-blue element to it for many people.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is for the high-performance programme but could it have a detrimental effect in that it causes some of the industry to move elsewhere?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
As the governing body, it is our role to enter athletes into competitions all over the world. Irish athletes are competing and we have not seen any drop-off. I am aware some people are saying online there will be a drop-off but that is not reflected in the information and data we have.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Will Horse Sport Ireland do an assessment of the impact of the levy at some point?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a review period in place?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Many equine centres around the country have a lot of children learning the skills of riding horses and so on. There have been instances of abuse in the past. I have in mind a particular recent case. Child protection is very important in every aspect. What role does Horse Sport Ireland have in that regard?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Any abuse of children is absolutely abhorrent. That is the starting point. As to our role as the governing body in this regard, as I mentioned, we have an affiliate structure and we provide the Garda vetting for all those affiliates. They submit an application on behalf of what is referred to in the legislation as a relevant person, namely, a coach, trainer, steward, judge, official and so on. Applicants for all of those types of roles are Garda vetted via our organisation. If those organisations become aware of an allegation of abuse against somebody, their obligation is to notify us. We then stand that person down and, ultimately, he or she is stood down across all our affiliates.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are there child protection officers in all those organisations?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
There is a requirement on all those affiliates to have a child protection officer. It is no different from any other sporting organisation; where there is a club structure, the club will have a child protection officer. There was a criminal case reasonably recently, which is probably the one to which the Deputy referred.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There is anonymity around that.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
That is correct. Looking at the media reports, we are not aware of any Garda vetting. The person has not been involved, certainly in the past number of decades.
There is an issue whereby people may put themselves forward as an equestrian coach. We run an accredited equestrian coach programme. That means a person with that accreditation, at a very minimum, has a level of training, is Garda vetted, has insurance and has completed child safeguarding training.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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As part of that, is it always the case there will be at least two adults present with a child or children?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are those guidelines just guidelines or are they enforced? Is there any oversight of them?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Within the riding centres structure, one of our affiliates is the Association of Irish Riding Establishments, AIRE. A lot of the equestrian centres around the country are affiliated with AIRE. This issue is contained within its guidelines and it runs an inspection programme wherein it would look at coaches and so on. It is part of our training and our requirements for accredited coaches that this be the scenario. It is very important that the message go out from this committee to parents and others that when engaging coaches, they should look at the HSI-accredited coach list. If an individual is not on that list, there is a distinct possibility that he or she may not be Garda vetted and may not have done safeguarding training. It is very important to engage an accredited coach.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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May I make a final, very brief point, a Chathaoirligh?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Horse Sport Ireland needs to place an emphasis on that message.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The next speaker is Deputy Newsome Drennan. We may have an opportunity for a second round of quick-fire questions before the end of the meeting.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. Conor Ryan's RTÉ investigation is very welcome. It is a pity it had to be done but it is welcome that it has highlighted all that went on with the tampering of chips. I read that Horse Sport Ireland welcomed the report by Professor Patrick Wall and supports its recommendations aimed at strengthening equine traceability, transparency and welfare protections across Ireland and beyond. What lessons have been learned from the report? Have the witnesses been able to implement anything in it?
What State funding does Horse Sport Ireland receive? Does the €45 levy apply to passports or afterwards, when a horse is going into competition?
I have read that Horse Sport Ireland spent a six-figure sum on the Labour Court case regarding bullying and unfair dismissal. How was that funded?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I will ask my colleague Dr. Egan to respond presently regarding the tampering with chips and the Professor Paddy Wall report.
On State funding, in ball-park terms, the organisation has a turnover of approximately €10 million. Approximately €5 million comes from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for national breeding services, comprised largely of grants we administer and provide to breeders on behalf of the Department. Some people in the room will be familiar with things like prize money. Senator Boyhan mentioned the RDS. We provide approximately €220,000 in prize money to the RDS for its shows. That is all funded by the Department out of that €5 million.
All our sports programmes, including high performance, participation, equine anti-doping and coaching, are funded by Sport Ireland, and that funding amounts to approximately €3 million.
The final €2 million is commercially generated, largely through sports fees and equine passports. That is the only funding that we can self-generate. The €45 levy, as I mentioned earlier, is an administrative levy that we apply on approximately 700 international athletes when they go to enter an international show. I should say that the cost of entry to these shows is borne by the athletes and it can be anywhere between €300 and nearly €1,000, so our €36.50 levy is quite a modest amount, to make a contribution to the overall Olympic programme, by comparison with the fees they are already paying to the international shows that they enter.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, just to clarify, the money raised through that fee or levy only goes towards the Olympics. However, it is being taken from horses that may never compete in the Olympics but which do compete in shows abroad. Is that correct?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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When did that come into play?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Previous to that, what happened?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is that done in other sports, like athletics? Are they paying a levy similar to that?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
This levy and this type of funding model is not unusual across other sports both in Ireland and internationally. Particularly within our sport, a number of other European national federations would have a similar type of entry fee to fund their programmes. I should say that this is co-funding. It is not that it funds the programme entirely but it enables us to match our State funding from Sport Ireland.
On the Labour Court question, there are no issues. I am not entirely sure where-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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There has been no money spent by Horse Sport Ireland in the courts or by way of payouts for anybody, whether for bullying or unfair dismissal, in the last five years. Is that correct?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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No legal fees have been paid out for any of those issues. Is that correct?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Not for bullying or dismissal-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy to desist from that line of questioning.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to figure out where the money is coming from but-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless raised a similar issue earlier and I pointed out that we-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to see where funds are coming from.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I make a point?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is where I am coming from.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but because that would not have been the intended line of the meeting, we gave the witness the option to answer. As he did answer it, I was happy enough to let the conversation continue-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Anyway, the answer is "No", there have not been any legal fees paid out for bullying or unfair dismissal. What I am trying to get at is how court proceedings were financed and whether this levy was brought in to pay for court issues.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have to move on. Deputy Fitzmaurice is next.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am just going to ask one question, to back up what Deputy Lawless said earlier. Mr. Duggan can answer it if he wants; it is up to him. There was an article in the Irish Independent on Sunday, 5 October 2025. It reads as follows: "Horse Sport Ireland hit with bullying complaints as showjumpers revolt over process to recruit new manager". Is that right or is it just some journalist gone mad? That is all I am asking. I do not know.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Given that it is not the intended line of questioning as per our agenda, I will leave it up to Mr. Duggan to decide whether to answer.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is that article wrong?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Duggan can send in a written reply if he wishes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. that is sound. No problem. I do not know. I want to thank Mr. Duggan for helping me out in the past when I have contacted him.
Weatherbys is dealing with the DNA. Did Horse Sport Ireland have to put that out to procurement?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was it put out to procurement or not?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did many entities tender for it?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When one puts out procurement documents, people apply.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There were three tenders. Okay. How long is that contract for?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I presume it was Horse Sport Ireland that issued the tender. Was it not HSI that carried out the procurement process to get Weatherbys or whoever?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When HSI is looking for a passport, Weatherbys does the work for it. Is that right or not?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What I am asking is whether HSI put out a contract for that work and how long that contract is for.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. Previously, HSI said that there had to be a certain amount of samples and that used to hold the job up. Has that changed? A certain amount of samples had to be in the incubator. Is that still the story?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Part of the issue previously was that we were sending samples a number of times per week. In order to speed up that process, the samples are now going on a daily basis to the lab. At the time we discussed this previously, there were 96 slots in what the Deputy called the incubator and if they did not have 96, it meant that there was a higher test cost but the fact that there are samples coming in every day means that they can test more often. It has speeded up the process.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How much will HSI raise from the levy?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I spoke to Mr. Duggan about the books previously. He stated earlier that owners have a year to register. If a foal is born in October or November, but not registered until the next year, that is not the same year so it is not a year. Is that correct?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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A foal can be born in July 2025 and still be registered up until July 2026. Is that correct?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The year does not run from January to December. Is that right?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay, that is grand. I just wanted to know that and to understand it. In relation to books, I have raised this previously. Some breeders say that there is less information on the books now than there was previously. Information on the mother was there previously, for example. Is that correct? Have books gone out with relevant information missing?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We have had cases of that-----
Dr. Sonja Egan:
They have gone out with the same information. As I mentioned earlier, there is a model passport format that we have to follow that is issued at a European level. All of our passports follow that. The information is contained within it. The model passport format has changed over time. The EU issued an updated model format in 2021 so the look might be slightly different but the information contained therein is the same.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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All the same information is on the new-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If there is information missing, that can be rectified.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Mr. Duggan mentioned that Horse Sport Ireland had oversight over the Connemara side of it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is it affiliated to Horse Sport Ireland?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Horse Sport Ireland have oversight of that funding?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Horse Sport Ireland have any problems about passports with Connemara ponies?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Has the system-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Very briefly.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will not be long. We spoke about a situation the last time the witnesses were in and, in fairness, I think it has improved. We spoke about the number of calves the Department of agriculture is able to hammer through fairly fast when they are born, where they get a card and all of that. I understand that, through the DNA process, Horse Sport Ireland's process take longer. Where are we at with a bulletproof system? There were problems arising whereby a horse could be gone-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Briefly, Deputy.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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One second. A horse could be gone somewhere when veterinarians go to check it. How quick on average is a book processed now?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Very briefly because I need to get to a number of other speakers and time is tight.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There are four.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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In the time we have remaining, we have two other speakers and I would like to give them an opportunity to speak on it. Since we are tight on time, if people want a second quick-fire round, I will take the questions and we can leave them with the witnesses for a written response. We will give three minutes each to Senator Flaherty and Deputy Toole.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Duggan very much. I would have been fiercely critical about passports the last time he was in, so I was delighted to read The Irish Field on 10 January and see significant progress on that. I commend his team. The only thing I have serious difficulty with is that the figures Mr. Duggan quoted today are at odds with those given in The Irish Field for 2025. In that article, for which I assume Horse Sport Ireland provided those figures to The Irish Field, HSI said it had received 5,797 foal passports in 2025. Today, Mr. Duggan is saying there were 6,838. That is more than 1,000 extra passports in two weeks.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Still, Mr. Duggan is quoted in it, so I can take it that they would have emanated from a Horse Sport Ireland press release. They very much reflect on 2025, which I would take as the closing numbers for 2025. It belies the good work Horse Sport Ireland is doing when its figures do not stack up.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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No, it stated that Horse Sport Ireland had issued 4,778 completed passports and that, of the total applications, 5,785 had had DNA tests sent out. These figures are different. It stated that Horse Sport Ireland was waiting on 800 DNA samples. However, HSI was only waiting on 637 DNA samples two weeks ago.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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It does not matter. It is the end of the year; they should not change.
I want to move on because I have limited time. In relation to the levy, HSI's funding from Sport Ireland is €3.6 million for the life cycle of the Olympics, so that is €900,000 per year. The rules of Sport Ireland state that HSI has to provide 20% of that funding. The argument for the levy was that was to provide the 20% funding. It makes eminent sense to me. When HSI announced the levy, it was initially looking for a €90 charge. There was a revolt, and that came down to €45. If we had gone with the €90 charge, based on the 5,000-plus FEI entries we are looking at, it was looking at income in the region of €480,000 in that regard. I know it has been cut back to €240,000, but that is still €60,000 more annually than what HSI is required to provide under Sport Ireland funding. Per year, it is required to pay €180,000 of the €3.6 million. The argument put to us is that this was a money-making exercise and a money grab. Certainly, when HSI was looking for something the scale of €90 per entry, that was significant. Was that proposal for the levy approved by the board? Had it any prior knowledge that that levy was going out?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
First of all, when we initially proposed the levy, it was €60 inclusive of VAT, not €90. That also included part of the programme where we would pay the entry fees to a suite of nations cups, which added an additional new cost on us of over €100,000. That was part of the reason for the increased fee.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I have limited time. Did the board approve-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to move on to Deputy Toole.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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-----the levy proposal?
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I know, but did the board approve the proposal?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Very briefly because I need to move on to Deputy Toole.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
We removed the entry payments for nations cups as part of the programme, which allowed us to be able to reduce the fee. The entirety of the high-performance programme costs in and around €1.3 million to deliver on an annual basis. The Deputy is correct that €900,000 is the figure from Sport Ireland. The shortfall is greater than the 80:20 breakdown.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Flaherty. I call Deputy Toole.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I wish everybody a good afternoon. I have to commend the witnesses for the huge work that has been done on the logistical nightmare of passporting. I am going to raise the maybe 1% of queries that have not been resolved. I will first give the witnesses a ticket reference number for follow-up afterwards. We have engaged previously. It is ticket No. 7846. They might possibly-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy not to identify the relevant case.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Okay. I have the permission of the constituent.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy might send the relevant case directly to our guests.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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A couple of constituents have contacted me to flag a possible general data protection regulation, GDPR, issue with Horse Sport Ireland. When using Horse Source, any user can start a transfer of ownership process and then search through the email provided, name, address and telephone number for anyone else who is registered. They can go in, start the process and abort, and then there is no record.
Where current owners have raised a flag, a case number has been issued and they are asked to get an ID number, they are not getting an update on their case. They are told that the transfer of ownership will not take place, but they are not getting information in between and then they learn that the process has commenced. I am wondering about the communication piece and the feedback to owners or, indeed, anybody raising a complaint about their ownership status when they do not actually have the passport. I appreciate I am not a member of the committee. I will pass the witnesses my contact details. I appreciate the Cathaoirleach's indulgence in letting me in. The timing was opportune. I just learned that HSI was here today.
Dr. Sonja Egan:
I thank the Deputy for her question. What I would like to make very clear to the room is that change of ownership is not a legal declaration of ownership. Legal declarations of ownership are managed under contractual law and entirely separate to passports. Change of ownership is governed under SI 201 of 2016. The passport must always be with the horse. Therefore, if the horse is with someone else and he or she has the passport, the change of ownership can be submitted.
Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I thank Dr. Egan.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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To give members the opportunity, if there is a second question, we will take a quick-fire list of questions we can leave with the witnesses before we move ahead to the next set of witnesses to discuss dogs. I will do it in the order we have being doing up until now. I call Senator Daly.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Someone mentioned the control of non-registered or non-chipped horses. Would the witnesses have any idea how many of them might be out there? Did they ever do a horse census? There is a horse census of thoroughbreds.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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They are the ones that are registered. That is the census.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is impossible.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Aird.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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This is not a question but a final comment. For any animal that is out there, somebody somewhere should be responsible for it. That is all I would say.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Lawless want to come in?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I will be very brief. My interest here is for my constituents. I remember my grandfather and the stallions he had. There is a love of horses across this country. I know how expensive horse-riding and the whole game are. There have been significant additional costs in recent years in terms of levies for the high-performance section, full registration and change of ownership. All these aspects are driving up the cost of horse ownership and participating in what is a wonderful sport and our culture.
The point I was trying to raise here was that there were significant concerns, which are widely reported, about HR issues and legal costs within the organisation. It is cited here in the Irish Independent by journalist Mark Tighe, that there has been a six-figure sum-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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A quick question, Deputy.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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-----paid out in a settlement fee. That is what I was trying to address. I wanted to see improvement in relation to it and there seems-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a question, Deputy Lawless?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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-----to be no awareness of this. Will Horse Sport Ireland come back to me on this and review what was said? I hope there will be progress on it.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question on how the board is appointed. When four people stepped off the board, the Minister appointed others. Is that the normal practice? Are there stakeholders or should there be an AGM to appoint a board? How does that work?
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Very quickly, we will try to finish on a happy and positive note.
The last time Horse Sport Ireland teamed up with Alltech to put in a tentative bid for the World Equestrian Games was in 2014. Given where we are in the horse sport industry at the minute, we are the No. 1 studbook for eventing. We are also up there in showjumping, with three of our showjumpers having earned over a million euro each in it. Given the facilities of a revamped RDS, a revamped Leopardstown and a state-of-the-art Punchestown, should the organisation not be coming forward as the representative body with a bid for the World Equestrian Games?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. There are a bunch of questions there. The witnesses can send on the response to the members.
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I think Mr. Duggan might want to answer on the World Equestrian Games.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
If the Cathaoirleach will indulge me for two minutes, there are two things. I am delighted to mention the World Equestrian Games and that this year in Millstreet, we are hosting the under-25s world championship, which is a great coup for Ireland. We were very disappointed when Mullingar Equestrian bid for part of the Longines European series but was not successful in that. That is outside of our hands, but we were very supportive of its bid.
If I may answer Deputy Newsome Drennan's question on how the board is appointed, the Minister for agriculture appoints the chair and four others, with one from Northern Ireland. We have four industry forums, as it were, and there is a nomination process by which a member of each of their committees is also appointed. We have a board of nine in total.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is that every year or just when somebody steps down?
Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Are the World Equestrian Games-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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No, we need to move on to the next set of witnesses.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Were they all appointed by Charlie McConalogue, so?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for the huge number of questions taken there and their answers.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Members, please. Any unanswered questions can be sent on to us and I thank the witnesses for their contributions.
We will now suspend the meeting to allow the next group of witnesses to come into the room.