Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I bring to the attention of witnesses that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair’s discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as far as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings of the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings. We read the note for members earlier.

The committee will now hear from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine officials as follows: Dr. Lorna Meaney, deputy chief veterinary officer; Ms Frances MacAodhain, principal officer with responsibility for animal identification and movement; and Dr. Mary McCarthy, principal officer for animal welfare. Dr. Meaney’s opening statement has been circulated to members. I will give her five minutes to read through it, or two minutes if she would rather do a synopsis, and then we will proceed to questions and answers with members.

Dr. Lorna Meaney:

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee on the topic of control of dog microchipping. Microchipping is an important component in the control and management of dogs. It is a permanent, tamper-resistant link between a dog and its legal owner and, as such, means that owners can be held accountable for breaches of dog control legislation as well as ensuring that dogs separated from their owners, for whatever reason, can be reunited with a minimum of distress for both owner and pet.

By way of context, it is important to note that, as of 1 August just passed, all policy and legislative aspects of dog control and dog breeding establishments are now resident in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Those functions have been transferred from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. This delivers on a programme for Government commitment to consolidate all policy and legislative aspects with respect to dog control, breeding and welfare under a single Department. It is, however, important to note that local authorities retain responsibility for all operational and enforcement matters. They have the power to appoint dog wardens, provide dog shelters, seize dogs, impose on-the-spot fines and take court proceedings against owners.

With respect to the specific issue at hand, compulsory microchipping and registration of dogs was introduced in 2015 under the microchipping of dogs regulations. Over the past five years, an average of 111,000 dogs were registered annually in Ireland, indicating that people recognise microchipping as part and parcel of responsible dog ownership. That said, each year the Department collates and publishes statistics on a range of dog-related responsibilities of local authorities, and these statistics indicate that 56% of stray dogs entering local authority pounds in 2024 were not microchipped. There is work to do. Consequently, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is committed to ensuring that microchipping legislation evolves in light of new challenges and opportunities. While the current system supports responsible breeding and pet ownership by linking dog and owner, this system requires authorised officers such as a dog warden to contact the relevant register where the microchip has been recorded to get details on ownership. To improve on this system, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine plans to create a centralised microchip database which will be available to departmental inspectors, An Garda Síochána and dog wardens.

When operational, an online portal will make instantly accessible all available details relating to a registered microchip number and the dog's owners. This will mean faster identification of stray or injured dogs, easier enforcement of legislation, better accuracy of records and a reduced administrative burden. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is currently engaging with stakeholders to ensure the system developed will deliver what is needed.

From a strategic and broader encompassing perspective regarding dog control, a high-level stakeholder group under the chairmanship of retired Deputy Garda Commissioner John Twomey was established in 2024 to consider policy and legislative matters, specifically the dog control Acts and the Dog Breeding Establishments Act. The stakeholder group's remit includes considering the need for legislative change. The Minister looks forward to considering the recommendations from the group, which are anticipated in the near term. The report is anticipated to frame requirements in the area over the near, mid- and longer term, and might certainly include, inter alia, recommendations in this space.

The Minister, Deputy Heydon, has previously indicated that he is personally invested in making a difference in the area of animal welfare generally and dog control specifically. From that perspective, it is worth noting that in December he announced funding of €6.5 million for animal welfare charities. This compares favourably with the 2020 figure of €2.4 million.

The Minister was also pleased to indicate, in November, that local authorities will continue to be resourced into 2026 to the tune of €2 million overall with respect to the retention or appointment of additional dog wardens in the year. This is complemented by €2 million in capital funding, as disbursed to local authorities in 2025.

As officials in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, we look forward to engaging with all stakeholders in the area on behalf of the Minister and welcome any queries the committee may have so as to illuminate what is happening, planned and anticipated going forward.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Sheep farmers have been raising with us very genuine concerns about attacks on their flocks, whether by stray dogs or family pets, and the need for us to support them on this, to ensure responsible dog ownership and to follow up where there is an attack on a flock. Microchipping is one aspect of this and we are focusing on it today. I will open the discussion to the members, who will follow their rota from earlier. First up is Senator Daly.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the officials from the Department. I will be very brief. I have a couple of questions and just want to hear the answers. I have another meeting at 5.30 p.m., so when I get up and leave, it will not be that I am unhappy with some of the answers or disinterested.

How is the transfer from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht to the Department of agriculture going? Was it just a direct move or were changes made to any of the processes or procedures that were used by the other Department?

It was said that 110,000 dogs are registered. The startling point in the opening statement was that 56% of dogs taken in by wardens were not microchipped at all. Dr. Meaney said in passing that there is work to do on this. What is the work plan or action plan?

In every area we deal with here as a committee or in life in general, it is a case of the bad apples or the small percentage who do not do what is legally required, in this instance the microchipping of their dogs. They are not on record or on file. How do we reach those irresponsible owners? There is a big body of work to be done. I had people in the audiovisual room last week from Inniskeen, County Monaghan, namely the Monahans, who had had a dog attack. Now Niamh Monahan is taking the bull by the horns and working with AgriKids and Irish Rural Link to educate people on responsible dog ownership. Have we a plan to educate people with regard to responsible dog ownership?

Dr. Meaney said the Department is centralising the microchip database. That involves a massive body of work. I am aware that there were three or four databases. How will they be amalgamated? It will be okay from the given date on which every chip will be fed back into the one database. I have a dog at home that is five. She was microchipped four or four and a half years ago. How is the Department going to get the information from all the microchipping companies? I do not even know what company my dog was microchipped with or what database her information is on. That entails a big body of work. Is there a plan of action in this regard also?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

I can take the first question, on the transfer from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. We worked very closely with our colleagues in that Department for months. We were shadowing them and had a very good rapport with them, so it was very successful from our perspective and, I believe, theirs. We are continuing some of their work, particularly in relation to the high-level stakeholder group. The group is chaired by Mr. John Twomey. We took over the secretariat for it. Those concerned have been very generous. We are learning from them and building on that.

Ms Frances MacAodhain will answer the next question.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I thank the Senator for the question. It is acknowledged that the 56% is what we need to focus on. We have challenges in this regard in that we need to improve the data quality reflecting our knowledge of the dog population. The development of a centralised database would be an excellent start. We are capturing data in a number of different forums. We have the four approved dog databases, we have dog control statistics, and we have a dog licensing system. We need to start thinking about how we might create linkages across the three areas. It is going to be a huge project, as the Senator said, because we have four approved databases.

The first step is to ensure all the data currently held, which I hope include that on the Senator's microchipped dog, will be migrated to a central database. However, that is not as easy as clicking a button. We have to make sure that everybody has been recording the data consistently. There has to be validation because, according to the data experts, the data has to be clean going in. If not, the data coming out will be dirty.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The four databases were operated by private companies or private individuals. Does this pose any issue?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

No, we would be entitled to-----

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Has there been any blowback from them with regard to giving over their information?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

No. Under our current legislation, the Microchipping of Dogs Regulations 2015, we are entitled to request that data at any time. We will be introducing new regulations to create the centralised database and that will create a legal requirement for the companies to transfer the information to us. They will still be the commercial bodies registering the details. They will be the same as the passport-issuing organisations that issue passports to horses. When issued, we will do the recording centrally.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The microchips have been made by different companies or sourced in different areas. From a technical perspective, will there be a universal reader when there is just one database? Alternatively, will vets end up saying they need such a reader for one dog and a different reader for the next?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

That should not be the case. When the microchipping regulations came into force in 2015, there was a specification for the type of chip that had to be used. It had to be ISO-compliant, so any reader should be able to pick up the chip. Going forward, under the new EU regulations, there will be programming requirements on the chip itself. It will have to have a country code, so we will be able to identify for good that a dog has been bred in Ireland. All of those things will have to be factored into the database.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the officials for their opening statement and for attending this evening.

I have spoken a little recently on microchipping. While the idea is great, I am told the system is just not working. Dogs might be chipped, but the registration details attached to their chips are just not relevant. Where a breeder has chipped a dog and sold it on, the new owner might not have registered it in his or her own name. As far as I can see, there is a breakdown in the system.

Will the officials outline any plans we have to ensure every dog has up-to-date information on its microchip? Is there a solution elsewhere that could be copied to make it simpler to verify the data concerning dogs?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I thank the Deputy. It is challenging, for sure. The first step is the creation of a centralised database. It is a legal requirement to keep the registration details up to date. If you are selling a dog, you are required to verify the identity of the person you are selling the dog to and to update the details. That requirement is on both the buyer and seller. However, it is accepted that it is difficult to ensure everybody does that at the time. If we were to increase the amount of data that we have and centralise the various pools of information, it might result in an improvement. Even though our Department is the lead Department in relation to policy and the development of legislation, enforcement is down to the local authorities. They collect massive amounts of data, but these are not being collected by the Department.

If we were able to create those linkages, then we might be able to pinpoint areas that we could improve on, such as the collection and verification of it.

I am responsible for traceability across a number of forms of livestock, but it is much easier to collect data when animals are moving frequently whereas dogs do not have those critical control points that would make the collection easier. We will be consulting stakeholders and there is a control of dogs group being convened at the moment. We will be trying to gather ideas as to how we might be able to increase compliance in relation to that. We do not know what we do not know is the way things are at the moment. I think the centralised database will at least create an information pool that it is hoped will help us to target enforcement.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The other serious issue is dog fouling. That is probably in part of the legislation and it is probably referred on to the local authorities. Is there something more that can be done on that side of things? It is a serious concern.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

It is accepted that it is a serious concern, but that is not a matter for the Department of agriculture. It is a matter for the local authorities. It would not be appropriate for us to comment on that, only to say that, of course, for anyone involved with dogs, dogs should be microchipped and that should then deliver accountability if a dog is found to have engaged in public fouling.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I see where Ms MacAodhain is coming from. However, in fairness, it is not as simple as that for local authorities to put in workers to try to find out the dog owner who is responsible for breaches of the dog legislation. Is there really nothing more the Department can do from its side?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I do not think there is anything at the moment. I think our focus initially has to be on the creation of a centralised database, then analysing the data we get from that and linking the different areas that are collecting information. You never know what would emerge from that, but I have to say that, for now, it would not be appropriate for the Department to comment on that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms MacAodhain think that the centralising of the databases is something that will be put in place in the near future?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

We hope to start development work on this in 2026, but there is an awful lot of research to be done first because in any development that you do, you want to make sure that you do not start something that then has to be revised subsequently. We want to make sure that whatever we build will be fit for purpose and will be able to expand as we start deciding on additional information that we might require. I think we will spend the first half of this year gathering requirements and consulting people.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is definitely going to be an improvement to the system, but by the way Ms MacAodhain is talking, she is not too sure about whether it is going to happen.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

No, there will be a centralised database. There certainly will. I can say that with certainty. I just cannot tell the Deputy right now exactly all of the different datasets that we might capture on it.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The witnesses are very welcome. It is good to see them in and it is a welcome development and a move in the right direction. There is no doubt about that. There are major issues in terms of pounds and so on being overrun with dogs. The fact that 56% of dogs in the pound system are not microchipped is a major issue. The other big factor and big concern I have in Mayo, which is also a concern right across the country, is sheep worrying where individuals take their dogs onto private property. It is causing devastation among sheep farmers and has destroyed livestock. I recently spoke to a farmer who lost half of his pedigree stock overnight. That is the consequence of sheep worrying, so this development that has been outlined is very welcome.

I do have some concerns that I would like to raise with the witnesses. A centralised database will be really good. It is extraordinary that we currently have four separate systems. They do not seem to talk to each other, and even when a dog has a chip, there are difficulties accessing them. The local authority and An Garda Síochána will have access to this database, but that will not be effective unless we actually equip An Garda Síochána with the physical tools. My understanding is that there are several stations across Mayo and right across this country where gardaí do not even have the instrument to scan dogs, let alone the ability to repossess a dog, should they find one, in terms of their squad cars. This is important, but the follow-on is equally as important. I want to hear the witnesses' thoughts and what the Department is doing in relation to that fundamental point.

Do the witnesses feel that the local authority is the best place to enact this? The current level of enforcement is extraordinarily low. It is low because there are simply not enough dog wardens. For example, if a dog warden is sick in Mayo or on holidays, there is often only one left for a county of its size. It is an extraordinary geographical base.

I appreciate that we need to get the database but it is also important that we can use that database. That must involve enforcement and that must also involve the ability of An Garda Síochána to actually be able to access the microchips and have the ability to repossess dogs.

In relation to the groups of people who take their dogs onto private property, the Department should lead out in terms of going into these places and scanning these dogs, microchipping them, etc., to ensure that farmers can live in peace.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

In relation to sheep worrying, the Department is very aware of the devastation that it puts on farmers. We have the dog control stakeholder group and our Minister, Deputy Heydon, wrote to the chair of the stakeholder group and asked him to prioritise looking at sheep worrying, so we are definitely looking at that.

In relation to whether the local authorities are best placed to do this, that is not for us, as civil servants, to answer. I think that is a political question.

I know that the local authorities work very closely with An Garda Síochána. If there is an issue in relation to accessing equipment for gardaí, then that is something that maybe we will bring back to the high-level group to see if it will have a look at that as well. The high-level group is due to report to the Minister imminently. I will bring that back and ask the chair to have a look at that as well.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I appreciate that it is a political decision, but the Department should be involved in terms of analysing whether the local authority has the capacity to deliver on the enforcement side because we are going to spend a lot of money doing this and spend a lot of time. If there is not the other element as well, then it is effectively useless. Will Dr. McCarthy feed this back to the Department's officials, etc., and that group? There must be an undertaking done to see what the local authorities' capacities are.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

The Department has policy and legislative responsibility for the dog-breeding establishments and for dog control, but operational responsibility lies with the local authorities. I just wanted to clarify that currently they have responsibility.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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My point is that they do not have the ability or resources to carry out the necessary level of enforcement. There are also issues with An Garda Síochána. I would really like Dr. McCarthy to feed these concerns back to the group and the Department. There must be a compliance element and an enforcement element to follow up with this. I do not want to speak for all of the committee, but it is fundamentally important to progress on this issue.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. McCarthy referred to a report that the high-level group will be sending to the Minister. Will that be available to the committee? We would be interested in keeping an eye on that as well.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Normally, the Minister gets the report, examines it and then comes out with recommendations. The Department could look at that. It will be published after this.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We would be interested in reading it.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

We can look into that.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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When we see that 56% of the dogs coming into pounds are not microchipped, it is clear, as the witnesses mentioned, that there is a lot of work to do. Dr. Meaney mentioned that over the past five years, an average of 111,000 dogs have been registered annually.

Where is that with regard to the number of dogs in the State? Is it half of them? Is it two thirds of them?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I am singing the same song again. We need better data in respect of the dog population. There was a huge increase during the Covid years. Everybody got a dog at that time. Dogs live for up to 14 or 15 years. There are also exports of dogs. We are not notified of deaths so it is impossible at the moment to put a number on the dog population. It is back to the overall objective of improving the information we have in relation to dogs.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It just seems a very low number.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

That would only be new registrations. It would be one-off microchipped dogs. In total, there are maybe 800,000 dogs on the database. I do not know how many of them are still alive, however.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. The other serious issue and the reason much of this change happened is dangerous dogs. We have seen very serious situations where children were attacked by dogs that were not licensed. Those dogs are sometimes in a house or on a housing estate. There is a difficulty in that regard, particularly for children who may be in their proximity. Sometimes the owners have been attacked. The local authorities have veterinary officers, but what work has been done by the Department to track that and to be on top of and proactive about the issue?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

The local authorities have enforcement responsibility. Is the Deputy talking specifically about XL bullies?

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

The local authorities have operational responsibility. When the ban on XL bullies was brought in, there was a period when people who had them------

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Kind of an amnesty.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Yes, people could keep their dogs for the entirety of their lifespan, as long as they had certificates of enforcement. There was quite a lot of uptake on that. About 1,440 people got certificates of enforcement, so at least they are trackable. My understanding is that dog wardens work closely with An Garda Síochána on the ground, so they would be aware. We operate a confidential phone line in the Department. If somebody rings us, An Garda Síochána or the local authorities, swift action is taken if there are issues. The local authorities report to us on the number of attacks and that type of stuff. An Garda Síochána and the local authorities are the best people to see what is happening on the ground.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Lawless spoke about the situation regarding livestock and sheep, and the responsibility of dog owners to keep their dogs under control. For those of us who live in rural areas, this is a very serious problem from time to time. Then a period might pass when you hear very little about it, and then it arises again. The issue is with ensuring adequate enforcement. Do we need more and better enforcement?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

We are very much aware of and focused on sheep worrying. Responsibility under the dog control Act lies with the owner. We are working on a communications strategy to get the message out to the public effectively. There seems to be some ignorance among certain members of the public. They do not realise that they cannot bring a dog for a walk in the country and just let it roam.

We are waiting for the report from the high-level working group to see if it has ideas as to how we can strengthen enforcement. Potentially, we could look at increasing fines. Education of the public is critical. We are working on a communications strategy which we hope will be ready for lambing season. People will be under no doubt that they are responsible for their dogs and that their dogs cannot simply roam on farmers' land.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is tracking technology available for that? You can get technology on your phone that tells you everywhere your child goes. Is there a means of doing that for dogs in situations where they would be dangerous?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

We can take that back.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Has it been looked at?

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is like following a person around.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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That is what the phone does, but I am talking about dogs.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It would be following the person as well.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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No, the dog-----

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I think Deputy Newsome Drennan is right. There are probably issues there around proportionality and privacy.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It would obviously be something the person would decide to do. They would put a tracker on the dog and if the dog got out, the person would know where they were and be able to find them.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I am sure responsible owners would not balk at that idea. There are many Irish technology companies interested in giving farmers technology to protect sheep. There is a tracker that farmers can put on sheep. In the event of worrying, it might be able to notify the farmer that the sheep were in distress. I am not sure now.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It sounds like putting the responsibility on the victim, does it not?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

Maybe you could say it is victim blaming. Any kind of technology like that, we would have to look into it to see if it could be useful. We are interested in all these things.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I came across something stating that this is being used somewhere else. I thought it might be an option, because we have a serious problem in some areas with dogs constantly being allowed to roam freely. Part of the fines mechanism could be that if someone was going to keep their dog, they have to have a tracker on them. I am just suggesting it.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

All those ideas are worth exploring.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There need to be additional options on the table because what is there at the moment has not worked.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. How many prosecutions were there last year for dogs that were found not to have microchips? Where will the extra funding going into the animal welfare charities be spent? Will there be a clause whereby some of that money will go towards the microchip costs or to neuter dogs? That is an issue when we do not know how many dogs there are. There was a thing where old age pensioners could bring their cat to the vet and some of the cost would be paid. Maybe it is there for dogs but I do not know about it.

How is the €2 million that is going to the local authorities divided? Is that figure higher than in previous years? Has it been upped recently or is it the same? Will we have the same number of dog wardens? As others have stated, we do not have enough. That is probably the problem. Should we throw money at it to get more dog wardens out there and get more prosecutions as a result? The more prosecutions people see in the newspapers and on the television, the more that they will be inclined to do the right thing.

Dr. McCarthy spoke about complaints and reports sent to local authorities. How many are we talking about? Is it a daily or a weekly thing? Are there just not enough staff on the ground to do the job?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

The animal welfare grants are made on the basis of objective criteria that are reviewed annually. One of the most important things we take account of is neutering. Many charities neuter animals.

The €2 million was introduced only about two years ago by the then Minister, Heather Humphreys.

The idea was to get 40 more dog wardens across the country. My understanding is that it is given on a pro ratabasis, so it depends on how big a local authority is. The idea was to double the number of dog wardens. That amount of money will be recurring and the idea is that €2 million will be there every year. That is certainly my understanding.

In relation to the complaints-----

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry to interrupt but we might stay on that. That funding only came out last year or the year before.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Yes.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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How many extra dog wardens did that €2 million result in? Did the local authorities actually use it for that purpose?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

I can get the exact number but I think there were approximately 25 added. The €2 million does not pay the full cost of dog wardens but contributes to local authorities towards the cost of dog wardens. The intention was that it would double the number of dog wardens in the country. That was certainly the hope at the time.

On complaints, we have an animal welfare helpline in my division. We get about 2,500 complaints every year. We either get them through email or our dedicated phone helpline. The local authorities have their own complaints lines, as do An Garda Síochána. The local authorities deal with enforcement with An Garda Síochána. Anything that comes into the Department, we investigate it - every complaint. It is not a question of resources. We investigate every complaint we get.

On prosecutions as regards microchipping, we do not have those numbers but we have figures for animal welfare prosecutions. In our Department, there have been more than 215 prosecutions for animal welfare complaints. Of those, 96 related to dogs. That is since the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 came in. I do not have the figures-----

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Those 96 prosecutions happened last year?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

No, since the Animal Health and Welfare Act was introduced in 2013.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is very low.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

It is not because they sometimes try to resolve issues on the ground. These were prosecutions that were actually brought to court. Sometimes, fines are levied or we talk to people.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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These are actual prosecutions that go through the courts?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Yes. Those figures relate to animal welfare. Unfortunately, we do not have the figures for prosecutions by the local authorities. That is the responsibility of the local authorities, so I do not have those figures.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. McCarthy have an idea of whether it is actually being done? Realistically, if a dog has a chip in its neck, you need a scanner. Do the dog wardens have scanners with them when they are going around?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

When Heather Humphreys was the Minister, there was €2 million in capital funding given to the local authorities per year for two years in a row, namely, 2023 and 2024. The intention was to give money for scanning equipment, dog warden vans and pounds. My understanding is that some of that money was used for scanning equipment.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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If the dog warden had a scanner, they could scan an animal that was loose in the town somewhere and return that dog instead of bringing it to a pound, with the pound having to go through the rigamarole of keeping the dog because the owner does not know it is gone. That costs more money in the long run.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is welcome that their Department now has full control because it was pretty messy when there were a few different Departments involved in it.

I have a couple of questions. The county councils are basically the people on the ground looking after it. Can it be made compulsory that all dogs have to be microchipped?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

It would have to be done under legislation. There would have to be a new law brought in to do that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What about DNA records for dogs? Dogs going into fields cannot keep going on. Some of them are chasing after rabbits and all that craic. People going into fields - it is lurching, or whatever it is called - has to be cut out. No one owns the dog if there is a bit of hassle. What about the ewes that are heavily in lamb when a dog goes in? It is not just the harm they do to those ewes and lambs, but to the whole flock.

There are two things that need to be done, whether we like it or not. Dogs will have to be microchipped and DNA will have to be collected from every dog. We have to cut to the chase on this. Some people will give out about that but what is going on cannot continue. In the Department, is there any push to bring legislation forward to cover those two matters?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

As Dr. McCarthy said, we completely understand the impact of sheep worrying and the negative impact dogs can have. Genotyping is certainly something we can examine and that we should examine in that regard. To be honest with the Deputy, you would have to do a cost-benefit analysis on that to see whether you could ensure that the money invested in that plan would bear fruit. I would not say "No". In terms of the centralised database, we would make sure it would be able to adapt in time if that was something that were to happen. I will just repeat that it would not be easy and there would be many challenges in relation to implementing a mandatory genotyping programme for dogs. The system for cattle is only in its infancy and we might want to see how that goes and works. The cattle DNA verification programme is only in relation to parentage at the moment. We do not use it for the investigation of crime or anything like that. It would be a totally new area and would have to be heavily researched before we go down that road.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Microchipping would be the easy one to start off with. You can have a zapper in your hand and put it near the dog to know who they are, to put it simply, or what they are. Is that not something we should be doing automatically? I know some people will say it is more expense but we have a few dogs at home and a dog costs nearly more than a calf now, to be honest about it. In fairness to people, they mind dogs very well. They always say a dog is a man's best friend. If you are prepared to throw out €400, €500 or €600 for a dog, you should be prepared to microchip them. Most of them are microchipped now but there is a cohort of people going around this country with dogs. They are torturing farmers, which is not acceptable, and they are giving guff at gates when a farmer goes up to them. The Garda has a problem with them. You have to be responsible if you have a dog, no more than if you have car or tractor. If your dog does harm to something, you are responsible. Until we get tough on that, we will still be talking about this.

I have been in here many times and different farming organisations have brought out good documents about this. In fairness, the Cathaoirleach brought the organisations in here. We can talk and talk for years but we either want to solve this problem or we do not. This will not be a big monetary cost to the Department. If I have to chip a dog, it is me who pays. If I have to take DNA from a dog, it is me who pays. We are doing it to cattle now. Down the road, where sheep are attacked and lambs lost, we have to see if we can trace the culprit. In a lot of cases, if you bring in the medicine, you do not have to use it because people will become more responsible.

This craic of dogs going around the countryside into farmers' fields without their owners getting the consent to go in, in most places coming out from big towns, cities or whatever, and their owners giving guff to farmers is not acceptable. We have to cut to the chase on it. The council will not be able to go around and check every dog. Different bodies, such as An Garda Síochána and the council, could have a yoke that would be able to go along similar to reading a water meter. You can along by a water meter and what litres have been used will flick up on screen. The Department would have the support of all parties in the Dáil. There will be the odd one who will be mouthing and giving out about this, that and the other, but at the end of the day, we have to look at the greater good for all people, dogs and other animals out there. We cannot go on the way we are going because there is too much of it right around this country. Farmers are being cleaned out where a dog attacks their livestock.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank each of the witnesses for coming in. Did the witnesses say that there were 111,000 dogs microchipped in the country?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

It is every year.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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How many dogs are microchipped in Ireland altogether?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

I do not have the exact figures on that. I have figures over the past six or seven years that show that there are about 800,000 or so. As to whether they are all still alive, there are 800,000 chipped on the database. Deaths are generally not notified, so I do not know whether they are all still alive or still in the country.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That does not seem very tight. It is kind of loose. That needs to be tightened up.

Like Deputy Fitzmaurice said, we have an awful problem. A lot of Kerry is a mountainy county, especially south Kerry. We have a constant flow of attacks on sheep. It is coming up to lambing time now. It is farmers' incomes and livelihoods. It is a very worrying time for farmers. This has happened quite a lot and it has to be stamped out. Is it not a legal requirement yet to chip dogs?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

It is. Under the microchipping of dog regulations, all dogs in the country have to be microchipped regardless of whether they were born before 2015 or after.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is a legal requirement.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

For everybody.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is the dog wardens and local authorities that are supposed to follow up on that. I do not know how many dog wardens we have in Kerry. I think we only have one. It is two at the very most. Kerry is a massive county in itself, yet we are only a gairdín in comparison to Cork, which is the biggest county in Ireland. Clearly, there is not enough observation or knowledge of what is going on and what is really there. That is not good enough for farmers. As Deputy Fitzmaurice said, all of the farming organisations have done their level best. They have highlighted it in the Oireachtas and they have held local meetings. We all know several people who have had their lambs killed and sheep torn. When there is an attack, even if the dog does not attack sheep, those sheep lose lambs because they are heavy in lamb. It is really hurtful. As a country, we clearly must do more. If it has to be that we have to have more dog wardens, so be it.

I agree with Deputy Fitzmaurice that there are a lot of fellas going around now walking and leaving out dogs. If some farmer walks up to a fella, the height of cheek and impudence he gives. It is not good enough. They are leaving the dogs off. We have more walkways and all that. They leave the dogs off on these walkways, then they are inside in some fella's field where they are not supposed to be. Every man owns his own patch and is responsible for it. He is depending on it.

We need to do more. We have heard that 800,000 dogs in the country are microchipped. We all know that dogs die, though, so there might not even be that many microchipped now. That is going back seven years, so the number might be down to 600,000 now. That would not be a true reflection of the number of dogs that are in the country at all.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

That would only be over the past few years. There could be older dogs that are still alive that would not have been counted but were chipped before 2019, which is when my data goes back to. It is fair to say that we do not really have accurate data on exactly how many dogs there are in the country. The Deputy is right that we need to improve our information.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I was only just talking about the figure of 800,000 that the Department had. There are certainly a lot more dogs than that, and there could be older dogs. Of that 800,000, though, some could be dead.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

Yes, no doubt.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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There is no way that we are trusting that there are 600,000 dogs in the country. Dogs will have to be microchipped. We have to protect farmers' rights to their livelihoods. That has not been happening.

As a committee, we are very thankful to the witnesses for coming in. We have so much information. We can see now where the problem is. We do not have enough dog wardens. There is not enough observation of the dogs going on. It is not right that we are leaving farmers and landowners exposed like that. We will have to put our house in order and ensure that the farmers are protected.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. What is the current compliance rate with mandatory dog microchipping? What enforcement action is taken when owners fail to comply?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

There are a number of breaches possible under the microchipping of dogs regulations. An owner is required to microchip their dog in the first place and keep the details up to date. If they buy or sell a dog, they are required to notify the database. They are the tools that the Department has armed the local authorities with, but I regret that we are back to saying that the enforcement is a matter for the local authorities. As it is not our area, we do not have information on that. I am not sure that it is true to say that it is not being enforced. It is just that we do not have the information on it.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Ms MacAodhain mentioned the number of the dogs in the country. What about the thousands of dogs that are not microchipped? Would Ms MacAodhain be able to say to me today that, in any given town, 95% of the dogs chipped?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

That is true of any species, in that we do not know if they have not been microchipped. The focus is on trying to make sure that microchipping is made as easy and cost effective as possible and that we educate people in relation to how important it is to microchip their dogs. That is why we are investing in communication campaigns and things like that about how important it is. After that, if a dog has been involved in anything and the dog warden, garda or authorised officer of the Department is able to link the dog to an owner, it is a matter of there being consequences for that person. Our focus is on trying to make sure that as many dogs as possible are microchipped so that it is made more difficult then-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There is something I do not understand about all of this. I know about this issue from being a long time on the council. The good thing is that this is now under the control of the Department of agriculture. Therefore, we know exactly where we are going with it. The Department is going to have to do what needs to be done regarding the policing of dogs. If there are cross-breeds rather than pure-breds being bred, what onus is on the owners to microchip them?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

Under the microchipping of dogs regulations, everybody has to make sure that their dog is microchipped. If an owner has a pedigree dog, it is in their interest to make sure-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is a different thing. I am talking about-----

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

Anybody who has a dog is required to microchip it.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Anybody who has a dog has to microchip it.

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

Yes, it has to be microchipped.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and therefore what I presume the Department of agriculture is going to do now is roll out the little scanner that is needed. I presume every Garda car in the country will have one of these scanners. If they go out on the road and there are dogs wandering on it, they should be able to scan the dog and get it back to the owner. Unless we move like that, we are not going to get them. We get criticism here about the greyhound industry, and it is always in the Dáil. Every single dog in the greyhound industry is microchipped and traced back. Not alone are they microchipped but most of them are tattooed on their ears as well and they have a book. It has to be reported when they are dead. They are traceable from the day of birth until the day they die but I am worried about all the dogs out there that are not microchipped and roaming the countryside at night.

I have two things I would like to say. First, we are talking about a minority of people because most people look after their pets so well. It is unbelievable the way they do it. I commend them on that. I see them myself in my own area. You would know from a mile away the dog that is being looked after. You see the shine in his coat and all that. I thank all the people who work in the rescue centres and bring the dogs in. If you see the state of some of those dogs that come in, and we have all seen it, it is absolutely atrocious. I presume that when reports like that come in, the Department of agriculture is going to be upfront and to the fore on this. If you have a problem or anyone reports you about cattle, you have an inspector out immediately. We are going to see the same now with the dogs because that area is now under the control of the Department of agriculture. If a dog is picked up tonight and you can see that the dog was not looked after, he is starving, full of fleas or has a lot of sores, and I have seen all of that with dogs, will there be a channel for that dog or where somebody can find out what is going to happen, or who is going to be made responsible?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

The operational part of the dog control Act falls under the local authorities. There are 31 local authorities, so they would each be responsible. In other words, if there are dogs found like that, it is the responsibility of the local authorities.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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All right, but how can it be the responsibility of the Department of agriculture and then switch it over? I know exactly what happens. The local authority franchises it out to a dog warden but the bottom line is that if dogs are roaming around in housing estates tonight in Portlaoise or anywhere else, it is for the Department of agriculture. This is where I think it is wrong. If the Department of agriculture has taken charge of it now, let the Department of agriculture do it, not the local authority. I am talking about going forward. I have seen it down through the years. It was the same with the horses in that the local authority was to look after the horses. The horses are for the Department of agriculture, not the part of local authorities. Until we get a system up and running that stands on its own in each county and is the direct responsibility of the Department of agriculture, we are not going to solve the problem.

I agree with everyone else on the trespassing that is taking place. I also wish to say that the slaughter of hares in this country, and the pictures that come up with lurchers and people throwing down six, seven or eight hares and boasting about it, is awful. It is awfully cruel. I am told now that what is happening is they are blooding these dogs on sheep. There are videos up where they are blooding these dogs on sheep. Can we just stop this? We need to get it stopped. There is a budget there now from the Department of agriculture. It is has been ratcheted up, which is very good, and I want to see something being done, please. That is all I can say.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I will be here again this time 12 months and it will be the same.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for the date on it. I have one or two very quick questions I want to clarify with the witnesses myself. First, the chip is very useful for tracking and finding the owner if a dog is missing or lost. If they are involved in worrying sheep it is important as well. There are responsible dog owners who will be more likely to have the chip on their dog. There are other owners who are less responsible and who either do not know, do not want to know or do not want to chip their dog. What kind of action can be taken to get those people to chip their dog?

Ms Frances MacAodhain:

There is legislation that makes that a legal requirement. There is enforcement in the local authorities where if they find a stray dog, such as the 56% that showed up in pounds, they can require them to be microchipped. Initially, the attitude of the Department would always be that you would try to bring people into compliance and that you would not go straight to prosecution. You would try to educate people about the importance of being a responsible owner. You would require them to get the dog microchipped and to associate the ownership details with the dog. That would be the first port of call and if there was persistent non-compliance, then you might look at a prosecution. Education would be the most important thing.

I agree with Deputy Aird that the majority of people look after their dogs and want to be responsible owners. They are happy to be associated with their dogs being on the microchip database. We need to educate people on the need to keep those details up to date if the dog moves on or dies.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that most dog owners do. The dogs very much become part of our families and we are very fond on them.

The other areas I want to ask the witnesses about are puppy farms, the chipping of dogs and tracking those dogs. Where a dog is leaving the country, not somebody going on holidays, a dog going racing or whatever, but dogs being sold out of the country in a puppy farm-type situation, does the Department identify those dogs as they are leaving the country? Is there a recording of their chip? I would imagine it would be fairly useful in identifying who has all of these young dogs moving out of the country and whether they are registered on a puppy farm.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

These are regarded as commercial movements of dogs so, effectively, there are strict rules. All dogs that leave the country - commercial dogs - have to be microchipped. They can go to a non-EU country, for which there are more stringent regulations. Within the EU, they all have to be microchipped as well. We find that of dogs that go to the EU, about 74% of them go to charities in the EU for rehoming. Of those that go to the UK, about 40% go to charities as well. Our figures show that, last year, almost 7,000 dogs were commercially exported out of the country.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When Dr. McCarthy refers to dogs, are these adult dogs or is it the puppy situation, where you would have a puppy farm exporting an entire litter at a time?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

It can be both. Some of the ones going to charities tend to be older.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Where the Department identifies puppy farms, is it following up with them?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

All dog-breeding establishments have to be registered with the Department. At the moment, we have 251-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I have deliberately strayed from dog-breeding establishments to the puppy farm, which would be a more - we will say generously - informal kind of situation that we want to track down and identify.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

A puppy farm would also be known as a dog-breeding establishment.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The dog-breeding establishment would be registered and doing business-----

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Absolutely. The Chair is talking about illegal puppy farms.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

Okay. In regard to illegal puppy farms, at the moment we work on the basis of reports from members of the public if they know there are illegal puppy farms.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Department been able to identify, from the chips going out of the country, if somebody is exporting large numbers of puppies?

Dr. Mary McCarthy:

We have not seen it. I know there are a lot of claims at the moment that a lot of puppies are being exported but our figures do not back that up. We have not seen that and, obviously, if anybody is aware of this happening, we would like to hear about it. All of the pets we are aware of that leave the country are microchipped and have paperwork to support that.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses.

Dr. Lorna Meaney:

I will follow up on that. All dogs must be microchipped by 12 weeks of age or when they leave their premises of birth. In the case of dogs travelling out of Ireland commercially, by Irish law, pets need to be microchipped before they are transported, regardless of the destination country’s rules, because they can vary. In the EU, they have to be microchipped before a cert can be issued, but certain third countries could have different rules. To leave their premises of birth legally, pets should be microchipped.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses for all of the information. A lot of that conversation stemmed from sheep worrying, and it is part of the conversation that members will be following up on. I thank our witnesses for their support on it. There are no further matters for discussion.