Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 January 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport
Issues Facing the Taxi Industry: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apologies have been received from Deputy Currie and Senator Goldsboro. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss issues facing the taxi industry. I am pleased to welcome in our first session this morning representatives from the All-Ireland Taxi Association, Mr. David Mitchell and Mr. Eamonn Sullivan. Apologies to Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Sullivan that we could not squeeze them in last week. We are happy to facilitate them this morning. We are here today and looking forward to hearing their opening statement and their various views.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
I invite Mr. Mitchell to make his opening statement on behalf of the All-Ireland Taxi Association.
Mr. David Mitchell:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for having us. Eamonn Sullivan and I are here on behalf of the All-Ireland Taxi Association. Before we get to the more important stuff, let me address the statement that was made in this room last week by the CEO of the vintners' federation, speaking on behalf of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition. Mr. Crotty threw a number out and mentioned 47,000 plus licences back in 2012-2013. Just for clarity, there were never 47,000 taxis in 2012-2013. There were 47,000 licences, which cover buses, coaches, taxis, hackneys and horses and carts. I wanted some clarity on that from last week's meeting.
We would like to speak in defence of the national maximum taxi fare for taxi drivers across Ireland. For the customers we serve, our number one priority is a regulated taxi industry that operates in a manner that ensures the fair and safe delivery of a service that meets the needs of both drivers and passengers. We believe app platforms have a role to play within a fair and regulated framework. App platforms can be useful. Our core issue is with business models that subvert the Taxi Regulation Act at the expense of drivers and passengers. Our first issue is Uber’s fixed fares. Ireland has a national maximum taxi fare that is designed to ensure predictability and transparency and that passengers have equal access to taxis. For example, it would be illegal for a driver to pull up on Camden Street at 2 a.m. on a Saturday morning and start a bidding war for their services. We hope those drivers can make a living while delivering a high-quality, safe and professional service. Uber's fixed fares threaten drivers' ability in this regard. Fixed fares that are dynamically calculated by an algorithm based on the personal data of drivers will reduce driver incomes and, consequently, our ability to maintain vehicle standards and deliver a safe service, as we will have to work longer hours for less pay. The example read out at last week's committee meeting, where the passenger was charged €70 and the driver received €39 for a fare that would have cost around €70, had it been calculated by the taxi meter, demonstrates this. The route from Cabinteely to Dublin Airport is one I have taken many times myself. Uber is offering a discount of maybe €1 or €2 to the customer, yet hammering the driver for 40%. How can drivers continue to provide a professional service if Uber is extracting these commissions? International evidence from Oxford University in the UK and Columbia University in New York demonstrates that since the introduction of this form of dynamic pricing in 2023, costs have gone up for passengers while drivers' incomes have gone down.
Our second issue is Freenow's add-on fees and priority booking charges. Customers are being charged technology fees and priority fees on top of the meter. For example, a trip that has come in at €5.80 on the meter becomes €8.80 because a €3 technology fee is added. That is over 50% extra above a regulated fare. Those meter rates are set after many hours of consultation with the general public and taxi drivers alike. They are intended to reflect real costs, insurance premiums, cost of buying and maintaining a vehicle and national inflation rates. Platforms should not be able to slap on extras whenever they like. Priority booking is creating a two-tier system; pay extra and you get a car, if you do not pay, you are left standing there. That is not improving the service, it is exploiting and in some cases manufacturing scarcity to increase profitability at the expense of passengers. We have photographic evidence to show this, which is included in the file we provided to the committee.
If digital taxi apps are allowed to continue dictating how taxis are priced in Ireland, the resulting loss of income for drivers will force some to exit the market. This will cause genuine scarcity. Wait times will increase in cities. Rural services will completely disappear. The availability of wheelchair-accessible vehicles will drop. The public will be left without a proper functioning taxi service and will be exposed to the whims of businesses that have demonstrated a willingness to exploit shortages for their own gains. Who knows? Perhaps it is the goal of the platforms to destroy the regulated system and then present themselves as a solution to the problem they have manufactured.
Our ask is simple, namely, to update the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 and make it fit for a market dominated by digital taxi applications. Prohibit the use of algorithmic pricing systems that have been demonstrated to raise costs for passengers and reduce drivers' incomes. Protect the metered fare, protect the driver and protect the customer.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Mitchell for clarifying that point. There was reference made last week to the 47,529 SPSV driver licences that were in existence back in 2009. I accept that is not just relating to taxis. It is all small public-service vehicles. It did show the decline between 2012 and 2025 of around 20% in SPSV licences. As I did last week in terms of the other representative organisations that were in, I acknowledge the strength of the concerns raised by Mr. Mitchell.
If I can sum them up, they were fair integrity, driver income, sustainability and the growing power of the multinational booking platforms, which we will hear from later. The committee is also concerned about the compelling shortage of taxis, particularly outside Dublin during evenings and at weekends, and the implications in general for road safety, rural social life, tourism, employment and community viability.
With that in mind, we will begin with questions for our witnesses. We have approximately 20 minutes. I call Senator Cosgrove.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the detailed submission. I totally agree with them. People do not come in like this unless they are frustrated. I can hear the frustration, and it was the same with the representatives last week.
I was just reading up about it last night. I see that many drivers feel they have been backed into a corner. I think it was Freenow that said that if drivers are not doing as many fares, they are temporarily excluded from the app. Are drivers under a lot of pressure? Do they feel there is no alternative but to use the apps at the moment? Do they feel they are left with very little choice?
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
The former manager of Freenow articulated this in an interview in 2024, where he said it has all of the drivers and all of the passengers, so drivers have no choice but to be on its platform. Things have changed since then. Uber has gained a lot of market share. A lot of us moved over to Uber in the meantime, but when drivers engaged in a boycott after Uber introduced fixed fares, they went back to Freenow. Because they did not have a record with the algorithm, it was very difficult to get work. Freenow's algorithm was giving preference to drivers who had demonstrated an ability to work on the Freenow platform in the lead-up to that point. Over Christmas, drivers who had left Uber had no work on Uber because they were gone, and Freenow was not giving them as much work as they wanted.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They were double-hit. In the submissions they sent to us, Bolt and Uber said they support being part of the taxi coalition, and they support a national strategy, but Freenow did not. I will be asking it about that. It has not referenced that at all in its statements. Are the witnesses supportive of having a full strategy on this and an update to the Act, which I think needs to happen? I hope that we learn from our neighbours about what is happening and the damage it is causing, with drivers leaving the sector and others trying to live. Do the witnesses support having some sort of app platform? Some of the representative bodies that appeared last week spoke about having a national, NTA-run app. Is that something the witnesses would support?
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
To explain a little about myself, I am a PhD researcher in this field. I have been a taxi driver for 25 years, but I am also doing a PhD on algorithmic management in Maynooth University's department of sociology. This idea of national-run platforms is not unique to Ireland. Barcelona has a system where people can order taxis from an app, but it also gives them access to buses, trains and all of that as well. In India, an app called Bharat is owned and operated by the state. I think an app like that would be very beneficial for the NTA because not only would it limit the ability to exploit drivers’ incomes and driver costs for passengers, but it would also help to inform transport policy. If there were an app run like that in the interests of the public, we might realise, through its data analysis, that we need extra buses in Donaghmede on a Friday evening, and then use that data as a justification for providing those buses.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They would also get the money from it, if people are contributing to it. It is confusing that there are so many representative bodies for the industry, which is an issue that came up last week. The trade unions have the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, but there is no overarching collective for the taxi drivers. Would that be something that would make the drivers’ voice stronger? Have the witnesses thought about that?
Mr. David Mitchell:
Through the whole campaign over the last ten weeks, we have been collaborating with the different representative bodies. We were not an official representative body but we are now the All Ireland Taxi Association, I am proud to say. However, we were not when we kicked off the protests to beat this. The representative bodies have been collaborating on this. We have been touching base, and there has been correspondence back and forth. Ultimately, we all have the same goals. Maybe, down the line, when this is all resolved, please God, we can come together. Obviously, there is strength in numbers, and we would have a stronger organisation. Maybe that is something that can happen down the line.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Since this happened in the last ten weeks, have any of the app companies been willing to engage with the drivers, or have they made it worse for drivers?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there any face? Is there anyone to meet? It is just all online.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is no contact person.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the All Ireland Taxi Association for attending to answer questions, and thank the Chair and the committee for allowing this. We had a very tight schedule last week with the other witnesses.
Some parts of the industry are delivering a regulated, safe, high-quality taxi industry, and then there are the others. The witnesses said that this might be resolved. Do they think it will be resolved? It has been going on for a while now. It is a crisis as far as the drivers are concerned.
Mr. David Mitchell:
The fact that we are here definitely shows some kind of progress. We will need to see what comes to the table, and make sure we are covered and protected. It is not just the drivers. This started off with the drivers but it has grown into something else, and it is not only the drivers who are being affected, but passengers also.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I see that the NTA sets the taxi fares, which are decided by taking all of the costs of running a taxi into consideration. I am just looking at information that I got from different people in the business. Meters are calibrated and sealed, and the fare that is agreed on is the maximum fare that a driver can charge, although they can charge less. They have tendered for Government contracts. It is stated in the tender documents that when putting in a tender price, it cannot be above the maximum fare, or they will be disqualified. However, Freenow tested the waters a few years back and introduced a €1 technology fee, which went unchecked or maybe was approved by the NTA. It is a small amount but it adds €1 to the maximum fare for the customer. Now, in some cases, Uber will charge as much as €10 to €15 for the same job if it gets a person a taxi more quickly. How can there be such differences? How can that be allowed to happen in a so-called regulated industry?
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
I will correct one thing. An Uber job will sometimes pay an extra €10, but that is presented as a tip. Uber will encourage the passenger to offer a tip as a way of getting a cab more quickly.
The technology fees were introduced as a €1 charge by Freenow, and then Uber followed suit a while later. A sum of €1 was what they were talking about at the time, but we now have evidence that shows the technology fees are going up as high as €8 or €9. There is an example in the sheet we provided to the committee where the fare came in at €19.80, but the passenger showed us his side of the app. He had been told that his fare would be between €8 and €18, and that a technology fee of €7.50 would be added, as well as a booking fee of €3. However, the booking fee should already have been included. A booking fee is described as a variable fee that is applied. They are kind of playing games a little there, although I might be reading it wrong. In any case, it added a total of €10 to the fare. Instead of it being a €20 fare, it ends up being a €30 fare, and that €10 is extracted from the passenger. The driver gets a bonus of €4, but Freenow takes €6.
Our argument is that that is a breach of the national maximum. It is almost like they are testing it.
They tested this with the €1. Uber tested it as well. Now it has got away with that they are pushing it and pushing it.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And the NTA has allowed it.
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
The NTA has allowed it. The NTA has said because a driver is engaged with the app that the deal is between them and the application. Therefore the driver is just paying the application for the service. Back in the old days, it was kind of okay to move from one to the other but now we are getting to the stage, as described by the former manager of Freenow, where the network effects mean that it costs too much for passengers to leave, and they have no choice but to pay these fees. In the example I just read out, the driver was offered €4 as a bonus to collect this passenger but the driver was driving by when the job was offered. He did not need €4. The passenger was told they needed extra but they did not.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Sullivan. We have two more questions, from Deputy Moynihan and then from Deputy Boyd Barrett.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Sullivan. It is good to see Mr. Mitchell again. I thank him for his engagement before Christmas. This is a quick one. Many of the issues have been rehearsed. I will return to the question of VAT liabilities, which came up at the meeting with Mr. Mitchell. What sort of engagement has the witnesses’ representative body had with other representative bodies on the issue of the VAT liabilities and driver awareness of that?
Mr. David Mitchell:
We are trying to spread the word to drivers. Freenow is good. Freenow is based here. It covers the VAT. It is not a driver’s concern if it is working for Freenow. Uber, on the other hand, is based in the Netherlands and we are still asking the question. I have not had a definitive answer on it but I read the example earlier of the job from Cabinteely to the airport where there was a €30 commission and it looks like the driver will be liable for the VAT on the commission. The driver was liable for the VAT at 12% commission to Uber so I cannot see how he is not liable for the commission between what the customer pays and what the driver receives. However, I am not a VAT expert and I am not an accountant. That is what we are getting back. I did email my own accountant and he said it looked like the driver would be liable for that VAT between what the customer pays and what the driver receives.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Mr. Mitchell’s organisation or the other organisations engaged with Revenue with regard to ultimate liability on that or is it something it plans to do?
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
Revenue issued a statement that it was under review. That was last year or maybe the year before when this came to light. It said it would look at it and see what would happen but we have not heard anything back from Revenue as drivers. The liability is on the part of the company that earns the money but Uber’s terms and conditions tell us we are liable for any cost that it incurs in relation to VAT. It is playing a game a little bit where it is saying that we are liable for the VAT it has incurred because the VAT is on the profit it made, the commission it makes off the job. It is making money on our work but it wants us to pay the VAT on it.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What sort of engagement has the association had with the taxi representatives on the Advisory Committee on Small Public Service Vehicles? Or is that something it is feeding into?
Mr. David Mitchell:
The pressing issues for us is what I read out in the opening presentation. We are constantly in conversation with the other representative bodies and it is something we will be looking for after we resolve this.
I agree with Senator Cosgrove. The whole system needs to be looked at. There needs to be an overview. There is a shortage of regulators on the street stopping drivers from picking and choosing what fares they want. There is obviously an issue in rural Ireland. We would like to move on. We are now a registered and recognised association. It is something we would like to do. I am getting a lot of phone calls from taxi drivers asking if we can fix this and that. Rome was not built in a day but once we get this fixed, please God, we can go on to resolve other pressing issues in the industry.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
For sure. The fragmentation that Senator Cosgrove alluded to already is something the association would need to address because there are pressing issues. Supply in rural areas is a very real one. I have discussed that with Mr. Mitchell and his colleagues previously. I would encourage that engagement and I would encourage that engagement through the Advisory Committee on Small Public Service Vehicles too. Issues like that VAT liability, for example, should be something that surface very quickly and guidance issued from it very clearly as well. That is something I will probably follow up with Revenue too.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Boyd Barrett is next.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Chair for indulging me. I thank Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Mitchell who I have been engaging with over the last while. I came out and supported their protest before Christmas although I am also friendly with all the other taxi representative groups which have all been campaigning on behalf of taxi drivers.
On that last point, would it be fair to say there is deep concern that the taxi advisory committee is not terribly representative of taxi drivers and there are lots of other interests there that do not actually represent taxi drivers? That has led to many of the taxi representative groups keeping their distance from it. What they would like is more direct engagement with the Department, the Minister, the Oireachtas and people here who can potentially resolve these problems. Will they respond to that?
Will the witnesses elaborate a little on the suggestion there would be an NTA-run app? It seems to me, but maybe they can draw this out, that it is a win-win-win. It is a win for the drivers because there is proper regulation to ensure they get their income; it is a win for the public because there is proper transparency about prices and one way of getting information about the availability of taxis and so on, and a level playing field; and it is a win for the State because the money that is now going to companies based in the Netherlands or Estonia, which are taking big commissions or adding on technology charges, is cut out and instead a reasonable commission could come back to the public. Is that a fair summation of how that would help to resolve it?
I was talking to Mr. Sullivan beforehand and he spoke about something we should be alarmed about. I ask him to elaborate on it. The digital profiling of customers and drivers by Uber is shocking, to be honest. It shocks me. Will he elaborate? I know it is his area of expertise.
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
Two studies were carried out which were published last summer. One was by Oxford University. It analysed millions of trips in collaboration with drivers’ groups. It looked at the algorithm and what is called up-front-pricing in London and New York and is called fixed pricing here. It showed that Uber is drawing on the personal data of passengers and the personal data of drivers to set fares and that is increasing the cost for passengers and decreasing the incomes of drivers. At the same time a study was carried out in Columbia University by Len Sherman. He showed this is how Uber had started to make money. It had never made any profits before 2023. It did this by figuring out how to maximise the price the customer will pay and minimise the fare the driver will accept. This is what we are dealing with now. It is not just a matter of messing around with the national maximum. They are using drivers' data and the public’s data in a dynamic fashion to figure out how much they can earn from each individual transaction. Len Sherman’s study showed that on the 3 billion jobs that drivers complete in America they average $1 extra per trip. That is $3 billion taken out of drivers’ incomes. That is per year. That is how they are doing it. They are doing it with data.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And the app?
Mr. David Mitchell:
We are having conversations in our association looking at different options. We have had multiple meetings with different app salespeople about purchasing our own app. We have asked the question and a few emails have gone to the NTA. We have not got a response from the NTA.
The Deputy mentioned something about the NTA. Why are we here? People are taking their eyes off the ball and allowing things to happen. It needs to be tightened and looked at again. Deputy Moynihan raised it. The NTA needs to engage with the taxi representative bodies to fix this mess – to clean it up basically. That needs to be done in rural Ireland too. Ultimately the eye was on the ball and maybe people got a bit lax and thought it was fine and it was running itself but it is not. Everything needs to be tightened up.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Mitchell. Before we wrap up, I represent the town of Clonmel which is one of six key towns in south Tipperary. It is mainly hackneys operating there. As an all-Ireland taxi association, does the association represent hackneys as well or do they have different representation at national level?
My key question is, in terms of the shortage of taxis across rural Ireland, particularly in south Tipperary, what needs to change so we can see more taxis and more hackneys on the ground? Do the witnesses have a view on the initiative by the NTA around the local area hackney licence as well?
Mr. Eamonn Sullivan:
Yes, we have a view. The local area hackney licence was designed to encourage people to become hackney drivers by reducing the cost. They do not have to have a wheelchair-accessible vehicle or whatever. Now, the question has to be asked, why did nobody take up the licence? The reason no one took it up is that there is no money to be made. It is not as if there is loads of money to be made, drivers are missing out on all these opportunities and if they were just to service these rural areas, everything would be fine. It is not our responsibility to figure out how to make sure that the local area hackney licence works in these rural communities, and it is not taxi drivers' responsibility to fix all the problems with public transport in Ireland. If, however, we had a nationally run transport app, that could use the data to say we need taxis or public transport options available in rural Ireland at night. It is not that there is not an attempt to address this issue. The local area hackney licence is that attempt. It is just that nobody is taking it up.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will now bring this first session to a conclusion. I thank Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Sullivan for their attendance. We will now take maybe a two- or a three-minute break in order that we can bring in our next witnesses.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The purpose of this meeting is for the joint committee to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing the taxi industry. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from Freenow Mr. Danny O'Gorman, general manager, and Mr. Sam Pooke, senior public affairs manager; on behalf of Uber, Mr. Kieran Harte, general manager; and from Bolt Ms Georgia Heathman, public policy manager.
Again, I will read out some notes on privilege for our witnesses. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.
I now invite firstly Mr. O'Gorman to make his opening statement on behalf of Freenow.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the joint committee for inviting us here. I am Danny O'Gorman. I am the general manager of Freenow in Ireland. Many on the committee might remember us going back as far as Hailo. Freenow is a European leader in providing taxi services and we maintain a strong local presence in Ireland, with services across all counties and employing staff in Dublin and Waterford.
Over the past 30 years, the taxi sector has transformed dramatically. While the deregulation of the early 2000s saw an initial increase in availability, it was quickly followed by falling driver incomes, poor service quality and serious safety issues throughout Ireland. The introduction of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 established a proper regulatory framework, mandating better driver vetting, standardised branding and increased inspections to professionalise the industry. Within this strengthened framework, the industry has grown at a safer and more sustainable pace. There are now almost 28,000 SPSV driver licences and over 21,000 vehicles.
A competitive, well-regulated taxi sector benefits both drivers and passengers. There are many ways to get a taxi: through dispatch operators, ranks, street hailing and apps like ours. Taxi apps, in particular, have transformed convenience and reliability. The NTA's latest consumer research found that app bookings are the most popular method but still account for only 34% of taxi bookings in Ireland. Over-the-phone bookings are the second most popular at 25%. Freenow's own data shows that nearly 90% of people find it easy to book via an app. On Freenow a passenger typically waits just ten seconds for a driver to accept and just over three minutes for the driver to arrive.
This competition drives higher standards, better service and greater flexibility for drivers. In short, the regulations have worked. We now have a much safer industry for both drivers and passengers, with the space for operators such as ours to grow and innovate, providing the service levels our customers deserve.
At Freenow we work in partnership with our drivers. Since 2024 we have had an established co-operation agreement between Freenow and driver partners, highlighting our dedication to working together for the future of the trade. Last year Freenow conducted over ten driver surveys, engaging opinions on issues including safety, public policy and driving experience. This direction is used in all decision-making, where Freenow and the driver partners contribute to make changes to the joint provision of passenger transport. We hold regular webinars and in-person gatherings, where our driver partners could meet Freenow leadership, including myself, Mr. Pooke and the rest of the team, and raise any questions or problems directly with the business. We also welcome hundreds of drivers to our driver centre in Dublin every week.
While we recognise there are areas where we and driver representatives may not always agree, we value engagement and communication. I speak regularly to representatives from the trade, and my door is always open, as are my WhatsApp and email.
Freenow recently produced a new report, which I have here in front of me, exploring the challenges facing the taxi sector. In it we concluded that while the regulatory environment has led to a safer, stronger taxi trade, a lot of challenges still remain. We explored a number of issues, including rural taxi access and wheelchair accessibility, as well as warning against the campaign for deregulation or "hyper-growth" from the Taxis for Ireland Coalition, supported by Uber and others, which we believe would see taxi drivers lose nearly €400 in earnings a month. The report also highlighted two immediate areas of concern for the sector which I am keen to discuss today: hidden VAT liabilities and driver safety.
Potentially the most serious issue facing drivers is the hidden VAT liability created by the reverse charge used by Uber. Thousands of drivers are unknowingly non-compliant, jeopardising their ability to receive a tax clearance certificate, necessary for the renewal of their SPSV licences. This could lead to a sharp reduction in the licensed driver pool, straining service availability and damaging thousands of drivers' incomes. While journeys with Freenow do not impose any VAT liability, many drivers use multiple platforms and are unaware of this liability. There is no minimum threshold for VAT liability; even a single journey triggers VAT registration and ongoing VAT obligations. Over time, these liabilities, of course, accumulate. Taxi apps operating under the reverse model have been placing the burden of VAT on taxi drivers without their knowledge, which we believe is completely unacceptable. Other EU countries have acted on this. Poland, for example, requires platforms to register domestically and invoice drivers locally, eliminating the need for a reverse charge model. We believe Ireland should do the same.
Another major concern facing the industry is driver safety. Our report highlights that 31% of drivers feel unsafe while working, one in three feels less safe than they did a year ago, and two thirds have ended a shift early due to safety fears. No taxi driver should have to choose between personal safety and earning a living. Addressing safety concerns through targeted enforcement, dedicated support channels and equal inclusion in transport policing measures is essential to sustaining a reliable, nationwide taxi service.
Freenow believes Ireland's taxi industry is strong and one of the most well regulated in Europe. However, challenges remain which require urgent attention. We look forward to working with the committee, the NTA and other stakeholders to ensure a safe, sustainable and accessible taxi network for all communities.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Mr. O'Gorman. I now invite Mr. Harte to make his opening statement on behalf of Uber Ireland.
Mr. Kieran Harte:
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before them to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing the taxi industry in Ireland, including supply shortages, accessibility, driver sustainability and how well the system is serving the public. I listened with interest to last week's committee hearing and I thank the members for their engagement and the witnesses for outlining the scale of the challenges facing the sector. Uber has operated in Ireland for over a decade and operates fully within the regulatory framework set by the National Transport Authority. As a booking platform, we are part of the regulated taxi market, and our success depends entirely on that market working well.
Over that period, Ireland itself has changed significantly. Our population has grown strongly, travel patterns have evolved, tourism has increased, and customer expectations around reliability and availability of transport have risen. Yet taxi supply has not kept pace. Witnesses last week outlined the scale of decline in taxi numbers in rural areas, as well as the collapse of SPSV driver licences over the past number of years - down over 40% since 2009. This shortage is felt most acutely late at night, outside major urban centres, by older people, by people with disabilities and by those without access to a private car. This is not a marginal issue. When people cannot get a taxi, it affects access to work, education, healthcare, and social participation, and of course, the economy, particularly in rural areas.
As the committee heard last week, Uber is a member of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition, along with the Restaurants Association of Ireland, the Vintners Federation of Ireland, the Licensed Vintners Association, Vision Ireland, Bolt and the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation. We represent diverse businesses and backgrounds, brought together by a belief that the taxi sector needs a stronger, more co-ordinated voice on long-term sustainability. Its focus is not on one company or on one policy change but on how Ireland builds a taxi system that can meet demand, support drivers and deliver accessibility in practice. My colleagues from the coalition spoke last week to the committee about the impact the challenges in the taxi sector are having on their members, and I want to speak to a broader picture of the issues affecting taxi supply.
While recent public debate has understandably focused on pricing, I respectfully suggest that this is just one element of a much bigger picture. The core issue facing the taxi industry, and those who rely on it, is supply, and supply is shaped by policy choices.
We echo the calls from witnesses last week for the development of a national taxi strategy. The sector has evolved significantly over the past decade, but policy has remained largely unchanged. A coherent, long-term strategy would allow Government, regulators, drivers, passengers and industry to align around clear objectives: growing supply, improving accessibility, supporting sustainable earnings and ensuring services are available when and where people need them most.
A central part of the strategy must be modernising barriers to entry for new SPS vehicles and new drivers without compromising safety or standards. Today the cost, complexity and uncertainty involved in entering the sector deter many potential drivers. For younger drivers in particular, the pathway into the industry is unclear and financially risky. At the same time, experienced drivers are retiring, and replacements are not coming through quickly enough. At Uber we hear from many prospective drivers who are interested in driving only during the busier periods, whether that be during the weekends or over the summer, when their town is bustling with tourists. For these willing participants, today's regulations provide little opportunity. If we want more taxis on the road, we need to make it easier, not harder, for people to choose taxi driving as a viable occupation. That means looking at licensing processes, training requirements, vehicle rules and upfront costs through the lens of supply and outcomes.
Accessibility must also be addressed more effectively. A national taxi strategy should look at how supports are targeted, how availability is measured and how accessibility can be improved across the industry. For example, Vision Ireland, a member of our coalition, has long called for taxis to be made more affordable for those with sight loss through the introduction of a voucher scheme, similar to schemes already running in the UK and elsewhere. This is something I call on the committee to examine.
Pricing will, of course, continue to be part of the discussion, and I am happy to address questions on that, but we must address the most important issue: a taxi system that is large enough, reliable enough and sustainable enough to meet Ireland's needs.
In short, the question before us is how we make sure the system as it stands is delivering for the public and for drivers, and if not, what we are prepared to change.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Mr. Harte. I now invite Ms Heathman to make her opening statement on behalf of Bolt.
Ms Georgia Heathman:
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak to them. My name is Georgia Heathman. I am the public policy manager for Bolt in the UK and Ireland. Bolt is a shared mobility platform. In Ireland we hold an NTA dispatch operator licence, connecting passengers with licensed drivers in Dublin and Cork. We are also a member of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition, working with partners across hospitality, tourism and disability advocacy on improving availability, safety and access in the taxi industry.
Our approach is built around safety and compliance.
Public trust depends on robust standards and a strong safety culture, and supporting drivers to deliver an essential door-to-door service safely and compliantly is our number one priority as a business. We continue to see strong demand across Dublin and Cork and we are preparing to expand our taxi operations nationwide. As we expand, we want to support drivers across the country to earn reliably and operate safely. We invest in compliance controls and safety features that complement the regulatory framework. This includes onboarding and ongoing checks, steps to help confirm driver identity, and in-app safety tools and support processes for both drivers and passengers.
In our operations, the most consistent challenge we see is driver availability. In our data, this shows up as more passengers unable to get a taxi when they need one, and longer wait times, particularly on weekends and late at night. We also note the wider context from the National Transport Authority figures, which show SPSV driver licences have declined over the longer term, from 47,529 in 2009 to 27,887 in 2025. In our operations, when passengers cancel a booking, the most common reason they give is that the wait time is too long. When driver availability is tight, reliability drops for everyone. The impact is felt most by people who rely on door-to-door transport, including passengers travelling late at night and those in areas with limited public transport alternatives. Reliability is not just a convenience. It is a core part of safety and inclusion.
We are advocating for enabling more access to the industry, but we do not want to see deregulation. We support innovation in how services are accessed and delivered, not a weakening of the safeguards that protect passengers and drivers. There is an opportunity to focus on practical measures that can support and encourage more drivers to enter, remain and return to the sector, while maintaining high standards and strong enforcement. We would welcome a focus on reforms that improve reliability in practice, while keeping the licensing framework fair for drivers and trusted by passengers. We believe technology can complement the regulatory framework by supporting compliance processes, improving transparency for passengers and helping to match demand with available drivers at peak times.
For us, success looks like passengers being able to get a licensed, safe taxi when they need one, including at peak times, and drivers being able to earn reliably within a framework that maintains high standards. We share the objective of a taxi service that is reliable, safe and accessible for all, and we will work with the committee and the NTA on practical measures that improve passenger outcomes and support sustainable livelihoods for drivers.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. Last week and again this morning, the committee heard strong, consistent, clearly-expressed views from the various taxi alliances and associations, particularly about pricing models, driver income sustainability and regulatory fairness. We heard from the hospitality sector about rural Ireland, where I am from, and the impact on the hospitality sector and tourism sector, rural communities, and the lack of available taxis. Those perspectives are at the heart of today's engagement.
I begin with the evidence from last week, in which the committee heard about pricing models, driver income sustainability, and that the witnesses' platforms are undermining driver incomes. How do the witnesses respond to that? I ask Mr. Harte that first.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Nothing has changed.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can Mr. Harte provide any data on driver incomes from an Uber perspective?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
The way our system has operated in the more than a decade we have been here is that we take the same service fee from a driver as we have for over a decade. That is before the introduction of taxi fixed prices. There is no change to what we make. If taxi drivers earn less on a fixed-fare trip with Uber than they would on a metered fare trip, Uber also earns less.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can I ask the other witnesses that too?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
In our general terms and conditions, we set the revenue share for different models. The revenue share is 15%. It is not dynamic or variable. We have a joint partnership agreement with drivers. There is a term in our general terms and conditions that we can liaise with drivers in order to change it.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Last week and again today, we heard serious concerns regarding VAT liabilities arising from the reverse charge models. What steps is Uber taking to ensure that drivers are fully informed and compliant? We heard evidence today about how impossible it is to contact Uber. Does Uber have a desk or hotline for taxi drivers in Ireland? How does Mr. Harte respond to those genuine concerns around VAT liabilities?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What are those channels? If I am a taxi driver, how do I contact Uber Ireland if I am concerned about my VAT liability and I want absolute clarity about that VAT liability that I may or may not have? Who do I contact here in Ireland?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So there is a dedicated phone line for drivers. What is that phone number?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apart from the chat option, is there an email address for drivers too?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Harte accept that there is an issue for drivers with VAT and that those unresolved VAT issues could impact on driver numbers and worsen supply shortages?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
I do not. The VAT payment system is not unique to Uber. It is not even unique to the taxi industry. Any small or big business that buys a service from a country abroad is required to pay VAT under EU and Irish rules. We comply with all those rules. The Oireachtas sets those rules. If the Oireachtas wants to change how those rules are formed, we will obviously and willingly comply.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Taxi Alliance and many members highlighted declining rural availability of taxis. What can platform models meaningfully do to improve rural peak and off-peak coverage?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
From the Freenow perspective, every partner around this table agrees there is an issue, including rural taxi drivers, operators, Members of the Oireachtas and members of the committee. What differs is how we solve it. From a Freenow perspective, if standards are decreased throughout Ireland in order to get more drivers through the door, drivers will gravitate towards cities, drivers in cities will make less money and there will still be the same rural issue. Mr. Sullivan mentioned earlier that it is hard to make a living in rural areas. It is not about standards there but how people make a living. The NTA has a local area hackney scheme which is not really fit for purpose. Very few drivers engage with that process. We believe there needs to be a targeted approach for rural Ireland, otherwise we will end up in a position a couple of years down the line-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is wrong with the local area hackney licence system?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
I will give an example.
We worked with a driver in Castlepollard who wanted to take people into Mullingar to go out for dinner. He is allowed to drop people out of the area but he is not allowed to pick people back up because it is more than 10 km away from Castlepollard. If someone wants a taxi or local area hackney from Castlepollard to Mullingar, he or she can go one way but he or she cannot go back.
Mr. Sam Pooke:
We put Paul, the driver in Castlepollard, on our platform commission-free to see if we could help drum up some sort of demand for him because he came to us. When we spoke to him, he said that one of the big problems for him was that it was not sustainable. He was unable to make enough money to maintain his licence. Unfortunately, he still got zero trips through Freenow. We helped him with local advertising-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My time is limited. Could Ms Heathman and Mr. Harte answer that question as well?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the timeline for that expansion?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This year.
Mr. Kieran Harte:
The problem with the local area hackney service is that it solves problems in areas where taxis have never existed. It does not solve problems in areas that do not have enough taxis and that is by far the biggest problem we face. Towns like Clonmel and others across the country do not have enough taxis to service the need that is there. Unfortunately, the local area hackney scheme is only solving problems in really rural areas where taxis do not exist at all.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Uber operate nationally or just in cities?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms Heathman said that their primary interest is making sure we have a high-quality regulated industry. Many people have serious concerns that this is not the case. Some people have to meet the highest of standards while more do not, which is a concern. I agree fully with the Cathaoirleach's question about rural services because I live in a rural community and it is an impossibility. It looks to me as if everybody wants to service the cities but, unfortunately, nobody wants to service the small towns and rural villages.
Can the witnesses explain in clear and verifiable terms whether their dispatch algorithms reduce a driver's access to work after he or she take time off for holidays, business or family reasons? If so, how long does it typically take for a driver to return to his or her previous level of work? What formal transparency and appeal mechanism exists for drivers who experience a sudden drop in job allocation or earnings? Can the witnesses provide written criteria explaining how algorithmic decisions affecting a driver's income are made? Given that the platforms control job allocation, pricing signals, driver visibility, performance ranking and de-activation decisions, how do they justify the claim that drivers are genuinely independent contractors rather than workers subject to employer labour control? What safeguards do the companies have to ensure that drivers are not economically pressurised by their algorithms to work excessive hours or while at rest? How do the platforms measure and mitigate the resulting public road safety risks? Will the platforms commit to full transparency with the NTA regarding algorithmic data practices and commissions? Do the witnesses accept that any system operating in Ireland must meet Irish safety, labour and public interest standards rather than seek regulatory exemptions as a technology platform?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
In respect of independent workers, the taxi industry is a fiercely competitive market. Taxi drivers can choose to take trips from Uber, Bolt, Freenow and local cab companies; choose to take jobs from school or HSE contracts; and pick up off the street and the ranks all at the same time. They have all of those options to choose work and from Uber's perspective, there is no obligation on them to take work. The answer to the question of whether we affect drivers who have left the platform is "No". Uber's dispatch system is a "first come, first served" dispatch system. It will send out a request to the first few drivers who are close to the job and the first one to respond will take that request. Regarding the algorithms and full transparency, we are licensed as a dispatch operator, comply with all NTA regulations around how we operate as dispatch operator and willingly look forward to continuing to do so.
Ms Georgia Heathman:
We do not make decisions on whether drivers can join our platform and take work based on how much work they have done previously. Jobs are dispatched closest to the nearest pool of drivers and it is a similar "first come, first served" system. We also do not suspend or terminate drivers for any reason in terms of them not taking a trip or working hours. Those decisions are purely based on a safety incident that may have occurred and drivers are always given opportunities to discuss that with us before termination in terms of them working with us is decided upon. We are all competing for that same pool of drivers so we make being clear on how they earn via our platform a number one priority. We do not deliver any sort of dynamic or surge pricing that affects what drivers earn. They are estimates, our fares are set on the fares set by the NTA and we take a flat commission. In having a dispatch operator licence, we fully commit to working with the NTA regularly, sharing any data that can help the NTA in terms of regulating the sector and working on policy initiatives that can help improve services for both passengers and drivers.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
Even the Minister for Transport said only a few weeks ago that taxi drivers were independent. It is a fiercely independent industry. One third of taxi trips in Ireland go through apps and one third of those trips are going through multiple apps - not just the apps represented by the three witnesses here today. Many of the regional dispatchers have their own apps as well.
Regarding full transparency, we meet with the NTA on a biannual basis and have a good relationship with it. We share data with it on a regular basis and it asks us about things like whether the wheelchair-accessible vehicle provision has improved. We will share data with it and go through the dispatch operator licence system like everyone else.
We do not suspend any driver for not taking a job or not taking enough jobs or have that feed into a model. We do have a system called Priority that allocates jobs to drivers who have things like our on-car advertising or who do more jobs with us but it is not a system where if one driver is 5 km away and another driver is 1 km, it gives the trip to the driver who is 5 km away. It is just that if two drivers are relatively close to the same job, the person who has worked with us the most or has those different things will get that job.
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If the witnesses say that drivers are not penalised for time off, could they provide the committee with anonymised data showing job allocation levels for drivers in the four weeks before and after a period of inactivity? If a driver's work allocation drops after time off, what non-punitive explanation can the witnesses offer and where is this explained to drivers in writing? Is there any mechanism in their systems that re-ranks drivers based on recent activity levels - "Yes" or "No"?
Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses say there is transparency regarding an appeal process. Where are the rules governing algorithmic job allocation published and can the witnesses point the committee to a document that drivers can read in advance?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
For us, there is no suspension based on the dispatcher allocation of jobs. It is similar to what Ms Heathman mentioned earlier. It is down to safety or serious incidents. We have a phone line, a chat and a driver office where drivers can kill that process if they feel it is unfair. That has happened sometimes. Something bad will happen to a driver and he or she will pop into the office and say that something has happened.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
One of the other members mentioned the algorithms and the data collected by the platforms.
Have they published the data they collect? Is this from passenger and driver data? Is it freely available so we could look at it?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
It depends on what data the committee is interested in really. We worked recently with the NTA, which did a big data exercise in which I think all dispatch operators took part. The data can include matters like wait times, the number of trips, proportion of wheelchair-accessible vehicle bookings that are taken and how they are fulfilled. We-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there data collected on individuals and their purchasing habits, for example?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The platforms do not share it, but do they collect it?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
We collect data on driver accounts and, similarly, passenger accounts so that we will understand where and when they have taken a passenger. We can see those records. We keep those booking records as part of our dispatch operator licence conditions. We can also share those with law enforcement if we need to.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the platforms use that in fare setting for individuals?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
No. Our fares are based on the NTA set fares. We do not offer any sort of dynamic or surge pricing. The prices are set based on estimates in terms of how long we estimate the trip will be and the route that the driver might take. We provide an estimate when a passenger requests a trip via our app.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms Heathman is speaking for Bolt.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about Uber?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Uber does not use it in surge pricing.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A report from the University of Oxford found that, after Uber introduced algorithmic pricing and the upfront fare, the hourly earnings of drivers dropped from £22 to £19 even as passenger fares increased, the fares commission increased from 25% to 29%, and Uber took more than 50% of the fare. Would Mr. Harte accept that that is the case?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Not in Ireland. How come it was in England and not in Ireland?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Mr. Harte not familiar with that report?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In relation to pricing and the fixed-fare model, Uber is prepared to go along with the rules that are set by the NTA or the Minister. Does the Minister have a role to play in updating the rules, given the developments in the industry over the last ten to 15 years?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
Fixed fares have been long existent in the Irish taxi market before Uber ever arrived and they are still very prominent. Local operators will offer fixed fares to places like airports or other major venues. They are well established in the regulatory framework because they work for passengers and they work for drivers. For passengers, they provide transparency, certainty and the competition in pricing for them to go and look at what their other alternatives are before making a purchase decision. For drivers, it means that they get more trips. What we see from around the world is that, when passengers know what they are going to pay, they will take more trips. I am sure we all understand that. There are not many transport options where you do not know what you are going to pay before you choose to get into that vehicle. Fixed fares have long been a part of the established regulations here. Uber has used that technology to scale that up from just the airport trips to give that transparency and certainty to passengers on more trips.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In any of Uber's discussions with the Minister or the Department, has it discussed changing the model or the rules?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has Uber had many meetings over the last five years with, for example, the Minister or the Department?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
We certainly met the recently appointed Minister with the Taxis for Ireland Coalition to talk about the issues that we discussed this morning in our opening statement around supply, growing the industry, how we make sure that more drivers and more taxi vehicles can help us in these rural areas, and how we get more taxi drivers into the industry.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Since the change of Government, how many times, roughly, has the sector met Ministers or departmental officials?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Less than a handful with all?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Reference was made to surge pricing. Does Uber apply surge pricing, technology fees or priority fees? That was one of the concerns raised by the representatives last week.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Priority fees or technology fees.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How much is that?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that per taxi?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the other platforms apply those surge fee or priority fees?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How much is the Freenow tech fee?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
With the priority fee, there is the regular taxi option at the top of the app and priority is used at times of peak demand by some passengers who will potentially use it because they are in a rush. This is similar to how the airport fast-track channel would work when one goes to the airport. The vast majority of the time, one would use the regular airport queue but sometimes a person is in a rush and wants to go through the fast-track queue, and pays a little bit for that. We do not create any scarcity in order to push people towards that. The only time we would potentially advertise that fleet is if the regular taxi service is not working and there are not enough drivers out there in order to accept a taxi job. In that case, we might say that someone will get a taxi if they go this way.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. The same question for Bolt.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What of priority fees?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Drivers were concerned. They reported commission fees of up to 25% and certain deductions for them. Is the full commission structure available so we could look at it, including any dynamic fees or variable fees? Is that all available?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have one final question. One of the taxi drivers mentioned last week that Uber was based in the Netherlands and there was a question about VAT. Is that a tax situation? Why is it based in the Netherlands?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A question was raised by one of the members last week - the witnesses probably heard it - about paying VAT and that the drivers-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Uber paying VAT in Ireland-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----for the services it is providing? Is Uber paying VAT on those?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So, the drivers are paying it.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe ar fad chuig an gcruinniú seo. As my time is limited, I have some quick questions I want to gather information through. Will each of the platforms outline the size of the driver fee and the passenger fee that they apply for each fare? I will start with Mr. O'Gorman from Freenow.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Gorman. The same question for Bolt.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To confirm, did Mr. O'Gorman say it was 15%-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Of the metered price?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And €1 to €1.50-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The same question for Bolt.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that 10% of the metered fare?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. And Uber?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that 12% of the metered fare.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that consistent over time?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So, how does Mr. Harte explain these pictures we are seeing of fares the drivers are showing with what the passengers are getting on the meter and what the passengers are getting on their phones?
What is the ambiguity on that? I have seen too many of those now.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that something Uber is investigating?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
I would welcome the evidence to see where this is occurring because the taxi fixed-price service clearly states the passenger will pay the lesser of the fixed price that was given from the start or the amount that is on meter. In this example we have heard this morning, if the meter was €38, that is what the passenger would have been charged.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We might follow up on the other examples we had last week because we had a number of them. There is something that is not sitting right with me here in terms of the overall piece.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To recap, 12% of the meter is the service fee. There is also a €1 tech fee. Is that paid by the passenger?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have another data question. What is the number of drivers who have exited each of the platforms within 12 months of onboarding? I will begin with Uber.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. What is the attrition rate?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is something Uber might follow up on. Would Bolt have that information?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Freenow have it?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The reason I ask that question is because, while Mr. Harte quite rightly pointed to supply as an issue, I find it curious that we do not have information on why drivers are exiting the platforms. We can take it as a fair proxy that if they are exiting a platform, they are exiting the industry as well. If we are going to come at this discussion around supply, we can talk about barriers to entry, for sure, but we also need to talk about why they are exiting too, and we cannot discount the fact that income could be an issue here. That is a reasonable proposition to make.
Regarding the VAT liabilities, I raised this with the representatives earlier. I know Poland has asked platforms to register domestically in order to be compliant with VAT rules. Why is that not a step being taken here in Ireland? Is it not legally necessary?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Poland has required taxi dispatch platforms to register domestically for purposes of VAT in their home market. Why has that step not been taken by Uber in Ireland?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It certainly would. My next question is about the VAT liabilities for drivers. Do the platforms make drivers aware when they sign up to the platform that they have a VAT liability? It is a yes-or-no question.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it made very clear or is it in the terms and conditions? I worked in tech and have seen terms and conditions written in front of me.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When a driver onboards onto the platform, is there a specific part in that onboarding package that says they are VAT liable and that they are required to register for VAT? That is a yes-or-no question.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it not proactively shared with the drivers who onboard onto the platform?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is something we might follow up on separately. The reason I ask is that in order to renew a SPSV vehicle licence, a tax clearance certificate is required. A driver cannot get that tax clearance certificate if they are not compliant with VAT liability and VAT legislation and that has an effect over time. When we are talking about supply, which was quite rightly pointed to at the start of the session, we could have a situation where hundreds of drivers are not able to renew their licences because they have massive VAT liabilities and they are not able to obtain the tax clearance certificates they need. I would like to hear from all the platforms regarding tax liabilities and how proactive they are in communicating to taxi drivers that they do have tax liabilities because, ultimately, all of us in this room want to ensure the supply of taxis. I would appreciate follow-up from Uber about how proactive it is in engaging with taxi drivers in determining their VAT liabilities if that information is not readily available today.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Mr. Harte confident that there are no issues with tax clearance certificates not being renewed as a result of VAT registration and VAT liability issues?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Mr. Harte satisfied that there should not be an issue with tax clearance certificates for drivers who are not able to renew their SPSV licences?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Harte does not think there is a source of worry from drivers who have flagged this issue and were previously unaware of their liabilities.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, that is grand. My final question relates to research that platforms are interested in putting out. All the platforms are dispatch operators. We have always had dispatch operators in Ireland, which are akin to the local rank. Looking at this industry from the outside, people will be worried that we do not want to take the approach of an oligopoly or duopoly in terms of the dispatch operators that we have. I am keen to hear about the proactive research engagement and data sharing that operators have with the NTA, starting with Mr. O'Gorman. The platforms have an amazing amount of data that will inform the supply and pricing problems we are facing, so I would love to hear more about what each platform is doing in that space.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
We have our biannual meeting with the NTA. We had a meeting of dispatch operators in November when lots of operators were in the room, including some of the ones the Deputy mentioned, from small towns and large cities, and some of the more traditional radio taxi companies were there as well. There was a follow-up from that, which we submitted data for. In response to any request we get from the NTA, we provide data. We work with the NTA closely. We would welcome any opportunity to share more.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is great. Are all three of those reporting sources publicly available for public consumption or are they just shared confidentially directly with the NTA?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They are not made publicly available. Is that correct?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that. Are there commercially non-sensitive versions of the report the platforms would be open to publishing in the future? It would inform this public debate. The three platforms have a role in informing public debate. This cannot just be a conversation with the NTA. It needs to be a conversation with wider society as well. I would encourage all the platforms to think about how they share that research, obviously without compromising the commercial sensitivity, but to inform the overall debate.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To follow up on that, the issue of VAT is a matter for the State, but we have consistently heard from drivers and taxi representative bodies today and last week that VAT is a major issue for them, including, as Deputy Moynihan mentioned, in the context of renewing their licences. It is equally a matter for Uber. Is Uber giving any consideration to registering for VAT in this country? Is this something that, based on the evidence we heard last week and again today, Uber would consider?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
As I have said, the model of Uber B.V., which is the company that provides the technology to drivers and is the service that drivers are purchasing, supports our whole European business. If the Oireachtas wants to frame it so that dispatch operators are doing that, then that is obviously something we will comply with.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Moynihan mentioned Poland. Is Mr. Harte aware of that requirement in any other EU member state?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. We can come back to that. We now have Senator Cosgrove.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. The platforms are all profit-making companies and are all clearly in competition with each other. There was even a pop at each other about how VAT is being accounted for. Clearly, if Bolt is extending outside Dublin and Cork, there is room. The companies are making profit. That is the ultimate goal. What I have seen this week and last week, and I had never seen before in a committee, is two weeks' worth of so many discontented drivers. There are so many representative groups and they are not happy. If there are no drivers, there are no taxis. That is a very basic point. Our job is to listen to the reasons taxi drivers are not happy. Obviously, there is justification for that. We have to look at the provision of taxis. I am from a rural constituency. We have to make sure that everyone is being treated fairly.
I will begin with Freenow. Mr. O'Gorman spoke about driver safety and about a survey that was done. I would like to ask a bit more about that survey. Is it publicly available? What was the sample used? Clearly, safety has become an issue, particularly with Freenow, if people feel that they have to keep answering calls or else will be removed temporarily from the app. I want to ask about the technology fee. All the other contributors here have brought this up. We have heard of instances where technology fees are 50% of the overall taxi fare.
How can the witnesses say it is €1 or €1.50 when we have been given photographic evidence that the customer is being told one thing but the driver is getting a totally different picture? Animosity is being created between the passenger and the taxi driver. I would like to hear more about that. Where is this information made publicly available?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
I thank the Senator for her questions. There is strong competition in Ireland. That is one point that everyone will agree on. We operate with passengers, drivers and the business. We are trying to balance the interests of all groups. We commissioned this report because taxi drivers are not part of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Why is Freenow not a member of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition? The two other groups are members. How come Freenow decided not to become a member?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there evidence to show that taxi drivers do not like that? Does this evidence come from the survey?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That would be great. What was the sample size?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are they represented by another body?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
The two gentlemen who spoke before us represent one body, and there are other four or five other bodies that spoke last week. One of the issues that has come up a few times at this committee is the need for a joined-up voice on the taxi drivers' side. We would welcome that. I am also the general manager for the UK market. The London Taxi Driver's Association has a very strong voice, and we liaise with it a lot. In Ireland, there are lots of voices. We would welcome the opportunity to speak to-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who was the survey with? Was it with taxi drivers who are signed up with Freenow?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is very few in the grand scheme of things-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----given the number of people out there driving taxis. A sample of 500 is very small.
Mr. Sam Pooke:
That is the usual sample we have. On the more engaging issues, we have over 1,000. Our focus is to engage with taxi drivers where we can. Mr. O'Gorman has a good relationship with the members who have spoken here, but it is our drivers who are accessible to us. That is why we try to get their input-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would technology fees be the main problem that comes up? I can see why that may be the case. Customers are being told they will be charged one fee and that the money is going to the taxi driver, but it is not. How can the witnesses justify the technology fee? It is very high. What is the service provided for that fee?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is unequal if a customer wants to get a taxi immediately. It is favouring someone with a bit more money. Straight away-----
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
There are plenty of examples of that throughout society. I used the airport example earlier. There are multiple examples at the airport. Customers pay more to park in the car park right beside the airport and less to park slightly further away. There are different examples of that throughout society, but why-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Freenow offer priority booking?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
What I want to make it clear is that what goes to the drivers is always transparent. If somebody orders a priority taxi on the driver's side, a bonus will appear beside that trip when it pops up. It is not kept by Freenow. The vast majority of it is transferred to the drivers in order to get them to accept the trip because there is-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but the customers is not aware of that.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can the witnesses explain the inconsistency in prices and technology fees? Would it be true to say that the technology fee represents 50% of the fare in some cases?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
That is where it becomes tricky. If it is a very high value fare, a taxi driver, even at a really busy time, will accept it because it is going to the airport and is €30 or €40. However, if a customer wants to go from here down to Baggot Street and the fare is €6, no taxi driver wants to accept that at a busy time because there are lots of better fares out there.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is the problem in terms of the availability of taxis in certain areas.
My next question is for Mr. Harte. Does Uber use digital profiling of passengers and drivers to fix fares?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it used overseas, in America? There it is not called a fixed fare but an upfront price.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How come Uber uses it there and not here?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Uber use digital profiling of the passenger and driver to set fares if it could?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would be very concerned about GDPR in the context of digital profiling to set fares.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My final question is for Ms Heathman. Bolt is talking about expanding into more rural areas, but how is it going to address the lack of availability? There is still a chronic lack of availability in rural Ireland. Most taxi drivers I have spoken to would argue that because of the app, drivers are gravitating towards bigger towns. Can Ms Heathman see Bolt having a role in providing taxis at structured times in rural Ireland?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
We would support any measures that would try to address the lack of supply of taxis in rural Ireland. We cannot force drivers to drive. We fix them in terms of linking passenger's requests with drivers who are available. We need to address the issue of driver availability and supply by encouraging more drivers to join the industry, allowing them to do so and enabling them to stay in it.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about linking with organisations like the NTA and Local Link to work together? Is that something that would be part of Bolt's business model?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
Absolutely. We are happy to work with local transport organisations to provide data to see where our services are plugging gaps and so on. That is a really key part of our role as both a dispatch operator and a data-driven organisation. We operate other services in Ireland in terms of micromobility and are very happy to look at how all of those different transport services can work together. That is why we would like to expand as well.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for being here. Freenow has a number of fixed contracts. I am chairman of the Oireachtas education committee, which is due to meet next door shortly. The State has a pretty major contract with a lot of taxi companies for transporting children with additional needs each morning. The driver knows that the pick-up has to be at 8.30 a.m. and that the child has to be dropped to school and collected in the afternoon. There is no booking required. It is a set arrangement that is paid for by the State. Does Freenow impose a charge on contracts like that?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
We do not have contracts to do any of that kind of work with children because there are additional criteria that we do not currently meet. It is something we would love to do in the future. We do not have those contracts at the moment. In terms of contracts with the Civil Service, we go through a very competitive tender process and quite considerable discounts are given to public bodies as part of winning those tenders.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What I am getting at is that those types of arrangements or contracts, are very set in nature. They are on a Monday-to-Friday basis, involve specific pick-ups and drop-offs and so on. Maybe I am naive, but I do not think there is a booking app or technology fee required there. In that context, I wonder why Freenow is in this sphere at all.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Freenow is not involved with the Department of education now but it wants to get involved. At what level? That concerns me. Mr. O'Gorman might think that is a good thing but I would have major concerns with it being involved in those kinds of morning pick-ups.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to go back to the apps that all of the witnesses host. They are very convenient, useful and serve a purpose. The witnesses have spoken about driver safety. Beyond talking the good talk, however, do the apps and the technology do anything to protect the driver in the car? In the winter of 1989, a taxi driver called Mr. Henry Hurley was murdered in my community. That crime remains unsolved. Two men who got into his taxi murdered him, but the case remains unsolved. He is just one of the headline cases but attacks on drivers are happening every weekend. Is there anything built into the apps for drivers who cannot reach forward and make an emergency call on their phone?
Is there anything in the app or the technology that allows him or her to alert there is an incident unfolding in the car or is just talk about driver safety?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
We have a number of safety features specifically for the case the Deputy described. We have something called "trusted contacts" where drivers can upload trusted contacts, such as family or a friend, as an emergency contact for us. There is also an emergency assist button. If a driver or a passenger finds themselves in a situation such as that, he or she can use the emergency assist button in the app that goes directly to emergency services.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. That is a positive answer. Reverting back to Freenow, I note it operates in nine EU countries: Austria, France, Germany, Greece, here in Ireland, Italy, Poland, Spain and the United Kingdom. Is the technology fee comparable in all countries or are there variations?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
It depends. It is decided on a country-by-country basis. The thing about small public service vehicles, SPSVs in Ireland in comparison with other countries is that the legislative framework is incredibly different. For example, in the UK, there are 250 licensing authorities whereas here, it is the NTA. It is on a case-by-case basis.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could we get some commentary on where it is at? For our nearest neighbours, the United Kingdom, what is a standard technology fee there?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I largely want to weigh in and concur with the points raised by Senator Cosgrove just a few moments ago. Particularly now that there are committees doing this body of work, we have had people from our constituencies send us in photographs of receipts and things. Mostly, people have quite a generous feeling towards taxi drivers. They do a tough job. They are valued in the community. People generally appreciate that the costs of running a car have increased quite a lot. The technology fee has become a feature of modern life. It is somewhere in there but I have seen instances where it is very extortionate.
I understand that Freenow has 85% dominance in the market. Is that the current situation?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Freenow have 85% of the app market share?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Mr. O'Gorman's colleague is shaking his head but the Internet-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Internet tells me that is the case but who can believe the Internet any more? At the NTA, has anyone ever expressed concern that dominance of any one of the applications is not good overall for public transport?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Relating to Uber and rural hackney services, I was in the United States recently and Uber there works as I think it should work. You get chatting with the driver and you find out they are an elementary school teacher, they finished work two hours ago and they will do a few hours of driving to supplement their income. That is fantastic. They are doing it in their local community. Everyone benefits.
It seems to me that potential has not been fully unlocked in rural Ireland. I know that is an aspiration of all of the witnesses' companies, as it is for me as a rural representative. If there was one thing for us to home in on in terms of policy change, could Mr. Harte or Ms Heathman tell us what needs to change here?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
I thank the Deputy. In terms of what can help, it is supply. We are calling for more drivers and more vehicles, both hackneys and taxis, right across the country and especially in those rural areas. There is no lack of willingness for people to want to be able to drive. As I said in my opening statement, we often get contacted by people who are teachers who would like to drive in their towns over summer or people who are partly retired and want to drive on the weekends only. That is actually when we need them most. We do not need another 30% of the taxi force coming into drive Monday to Friday, 9 a.m to 5 p.m. We need driver availability to match when the demand is there. That is on the weekends. That is over busier times.
We are calling for the NTA to make it more accessible for people to enter the industry and pay for a vehicle. We believe we have the solutions to really help solve these challenges we are seeing in rural areas. We need the support of the NTA to make that cost effective for drivers and for people to be able to drive a taxi or hackney in their local area without having to pay the upfront costs we are seeing now of €80,000 for a vehicle to enter the market.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On every taxi journey booked through a platform, there is the platform, the taxi driver and the passenger. How do each of the witnesses describe their company's relationship with the taxi driver and the passenger? Who do they identify as their customer or their employee - it may be another description? How do the companies view their relationship with the driver primarily and then the passenger?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They are thought of as partners, okay. What about Bolt?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about Mr. Harte?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. We had six representative bodies in last week and one this morning. When was the last time the companies engaged with their partners in a room in a public forum, listening to what their concerns are, taking on board their concerns and making changes? In 2025, did the companies sit down in a room with their partners?
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
Yes. We have a driver committee. We have used various formats over the past year where we invited people into the Freenow office and had sessions over two or three hours once a quarter. We tried to nominate people and then we moved to an open invite. I have also spoken to some of the witnesses who spoke last week over WhatsApp and email over the past year as well.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there a partner advocacy group or something like that?
Ms Georgia Heathman:
We have driver engagement teams. We have Facebook groups and ways in which we can communicate directly with drivers and hear their concerns. We also run pop-up events in Ireland, in Dublin and Cork, where drivers can come and work with us when they are trying to onboard on the platforms. We can help them with any issues as well.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Partners, yes.
Mr. Kieran Harte:
-----who use it. They are customers for us as well. We are trying to provide the best service so they are choosing Uber trips over Freenow trips, over Bolt trips, over street hire trips and over the many options they have in the marketplace. They are our customers. We are looking at the best ways we can continue to serve them. We engage with them every time they touch that app and every time they-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I understand but did Uber engage with them, their partners, in a room? Does Uber have a partner advocacy group? Does it engage with the leadership of the seven representative bodies that were in this room last week and today?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So, there is no advocacy group established within the Uber structure whereby it can engage on a quarterly basis with its partners?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I understand that. However, it is not the same format that Freenow and Bolt mentioned.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Harte not think there is merit in listening to what the views are, what are the concerns and trying to be a better organisation by taking on board the views of their partners? Is there not merit in engaging with them on a quarterly basis, for example?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but there is a chair and a secretary of the six or seven representative groups that we met. Mr. Harte does not see merit in meeting them on a quarterly basis or at least sending out an invitation to come to the Uber offices to say let us chart what the issues are and can we work together to sort them out?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To date, that has not happened?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Going back to the tech fee and commission, I know it was said to make up 12% to 15%, including the VAT commitment. I got a lot of correspondence from drivers in particular over the past number of weeks, leading into last week's hearing and this week's hearing. One driver emailed me about the example whereby he was offered, on an Uber fare, €39 for a fixed fare of €70. The meter read €69 so he got his €39 and Uber got €30. I am trying to reconcile that with what was said about 12% commission.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
However, if the meter is over that?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was that driver incorrect then? That cannot be the case.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is what Mr. Harte is saying in evidence here today.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I call Senator Duffy.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Harte, Ms Heathman, Mr. Pooke and Mr. O'Gorman for being with us here. I have listened to some of the contributions. I am based in a town called Ballina, County Mayo. Generally, from my experience, a lot of the complaints I receive from the people who contact me in my office are on the lack of supply. I know it has been mentioned here. I have great enthusiasm for the innovation that has being created, particularly over the last decade, that can help respond to that lack of supply. If there is smart decision-making and policymaking, there can be an approach that protects existing taxi drivers while also allowing that to be supplemented with better supply and interventions such as those we are talking about this morning. I would prefer someone complaining to me about a receipt and a cost over a weekend but who is getting home safely as opposed to the constant number of people who contact me who are standing at a taxi rank where there are no taxis because the people who are providing the taxi service, and who are legislated and legally allowed to be a taxi service, are only working Monday to Friday, maybe 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. That is not all of the cases but it is a large majority of them. There needs to be the application of innovation that we have to meet that gap. That can help people. For example, in Mayo at the moment, there are issues just this week in the local media where we have people who are not regulated. There is a black market being created because this is such a problem. As no proper solutions have been put forward, we are now enabling a black market, which is way more unsafe than any complaints that are made about, say, app-based solutions where you know your driver's name and you have the record of the journey. It is generally a very good service as long as it is managed in the right way. I do not think we should demonise it totally. I certainly demonise if there is extortion but general market response and innovation is something that should be supported in an appropriate way. There is great opportunity in that at weekends for young people who are in college and who are looking for part-time work. It is mentioned about teachers at summer time. The question I would like to ask is whether it is possible from a market and a legislative point of view that we can have, where there are clear gaps in service provision, temporary or part-time deregulation at weekends or a step down from the problem that exists at the moment. Ultimately, I care about my constituents getting home safely and having a taxi at a rank. My ideology is that people get home safely. That is not happening at the moment. As it is not happening, the black market is intervening and that is a dangerous space we are entering. Deputy Crowe highlighted an example in his own constituency many years ago that speaks for itself in relation to that. I welcome the witnesses' contributions on this.
Mr. Kieran Harte:
I thank the Senator. It is something we heard from the Vintners Federation of Ireland last week at the committee and from the restaurants. So many of these businesses are impacted by what is a lack of taxis. It is the lack of taxis we need to focus on. We are talking here about an app charging customers too much. That is only made possible because there are not enough taxis servicing this market. We just need to get more supply. I agree with the Senator. I got married in Inishcrone and I spend most of my summers up there. It is a perfect example of a market where there are loads of opportunities in the summer months on weekends. What we need is to have a system that enables people to enter the industry. We do not want deregulation. We want to make sure they are regulated and that the drivers have all the same Garda vetting checks. We have to make sure the vehicles are checked to the same levels as those of the taxi industry. We just want more of them and we want the barriers reduced to entry in order that people can do it only over a weekend for only three months of the year and not have the costs there required of them, if they are going to become a taxi driver, to be locked in to having to work five or six days a week and make that a full-time role for themselves.
Ms Georgia Heathman:
I reflect all of Mr. Harte's comments there. We are really not for deregulation. There is a lot that our apps have brought in terms of improving safety and compliance controls and checks for both our passengers and drivers. In other markets, when we meet drivers they really look to our services as a benefit. They can earn some money while they may be pursuing other avenues of work and feeling like entrepreneurs in their own sense. It is about how we can address those barriers to which Mr. Harte has spoken and reduce them while maintaining that safety and compliance the regulatory framework offers in a way that can support people coming home from a night out or home from work late at night in the nighttime economy and people who rely on that door-to-door transport when another transport solution is not necessarily accessible to them. While the supply is reduced, there are poor outcomes for all really.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
It is absolutely an issue. What I really welcome is some ideas on how we solve this. However, what happens when we conflate the rural supply with the general picture is we end up with more drivers coming to the towns. The people the Senator mentions will potentially not enter the industry but we will have full-time drivers going into the towns and cities and our data suggests they will start making €400 less a month. What we would love to see is a targeted approach towards, not just small towns and villages but also large towns, areas which struggle to get taxis and you end up with two systems. If we reduce the requirements to get in, if we look at the numbers in counties around cities like Clare or some of rural Limerick, the actual numbers in Limerick are going up significantly but they are going to Limerick city, not to the towns of Limerick. The same thing will happen here if we bring down the standards. The local-area hackney is completely unfit for purpose at the moment. That may not even be the right vehicle to fix this issue but we need to fix the issue.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Regarding the add-on fees, how much did Mr. O'Gorman say the booking fare was?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is €1.50. We were given a thing by the taxi drivers here earlier on which shows a technology fee from Freenow at €7.50 on a fare.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
In that instance, the passenger ordered a priority taxi in order to get a taxi quicker, usually at a very high-demand period. The driver would have been paid a bonus by Freenow in order to fulfil that. At times of peak demand, a lot of drivers will tend to pick people up off the streets or go to the rank. Therefore, in order for the apps to compete with that at that moment, that is-----
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is dynamic pricing really, is it not?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is surge pricing really.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
-----the regular taxi fare will always stay the same. That is a passenger choice. The difference between dynamic pricing, say, in the ticket industry, the Oasis thing that happened a few years ago, is there was only one channel to buy that ticket and it was dynamically going up the whole time while the taxi fare will always stay the same in a taxi fleet. Priority is below it and it is the passenger's choice to chose it. They have two options.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That sounds to me like a sort of two-tier access to public transport and the person with more money gets the taxi, which is not, to my mind, a basis for a good, fair or decent public transport system. Just so we underline this, the taxi meter fare is given in the price details as €8 to €18. The technology fee was €7 and the booking was €3. We are talking about those add-ons in the technology and the booking fee being 40% or 50% of the fare.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the witness clarify the VAT liabilities for Uber for the drivers on the app?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The driver may be liable for VAT because Uber is based in the Netherlands as opposed to here.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that true of Bolt as well?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am struggling to see how it is not a better deal for drivers, passengers and consumers from every point of view to have the NTA provide an app. There would be lower commissions taken from the driver and the revenue would come back to fund public transport infrastructure, there would be absolute transparency and no add-ons regarding what is charged to the consumer and the driver would get fares negotiated in a fair way to ensure that there is a sustainable income for them. From what I have heard or anything the witnesses have said, I cannot see why that is not a better option for the provision of public transport, even in terms of accurate information about what is available. One thing drivers tell me is that the information on the availability of taxis comes from different companies depending on how many people happen to be on the app. Taxi drivers tell me at certain times they turn off all apps because it is a busy time in town and they can pick up fares. From every point of view, would an NTA app not be better for the provision of public transport for both the taxi driver and the customer? I would like to hear from all of the witnesses on that.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
We welcome any competition. These three operators operate in Ireland in conjunction with the regional taxi companies. All of the towns and cities across Ireland have local dispatch operators. They represent about one third of the business and we represent about one third. Freenow has invested significantly for passengers and drivers. I will give an example. If you prebook a taxi to the airport today and the driver is late, you will get €10 off your next trip. If, for whatever reason, the driver cancels, you will get €50 off your next trip. These are things we have built up through investments in the Irish taxi business over a long period. We have our office on Baggot St. and our staff in Waterford. We invest heavily in making the app work better. Hailo started in Ireland in 2012 or 2013. There have been 12 or 13 years of iterations of the app, improving and making it quicker and improving the service for passengers.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am still not convinced. I would like to hear from the others. Mr. O'Gorman mentioned that 15% is charged. I understand that today it is 25%. Is there even a 75% charge?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is 25%. That is a lot more than 15%. That is taking from the drivers.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
We launched a saver option. We did a survey with drivers. The market is very competitive. Uber launched a fixed fare. Passengers in our surveys are looking for more price-efficient ways of getting a taxi. The feedback from drivers was that if you have to provide a discount, it should be linked to the meter. How the saver fee works is 25%, 10% of which goes into a discount for the passenger. We also contribute up to €4 million in discounts for passengers. If you look at that saver fee right now, it will be 15% off what is on the meter - 5% funded by Freenow and 10% by the driver.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What the driver gets is hit. Presumably, Freenow favours drivers willing to do that and pay it a higher commission.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If they do not opt in, Freenow will not favour them.
Mr. Danny O'Gorman:
They will still get as many regular taxi trips as they did before. There is no favouritism. It is completely opt in or opt out depending on what they want to do. Some drivers might decide it is a very quiet week and they want to get more fares. Studies show passengers will take more trips if the price is slightly cheaper. We are driving incremental trips for those drivers. Some other drivers might work with a local taxi company or have a contract with a local school. They do not need to do those trips, and they do not. It is this optionality that we provide.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will allow some brief responses.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I did not get a response on why it would not better for us to have an NTA app. The figures quoted for Uber are that it is, on average, taking 30%.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have to have respect for the other members.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apologies.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will allow a brief 30-second response from each.
Ms Georgia Heathman:
On the booking tool, it can help people to access the services but if there is a limited, smaller supply of drivers that does not solve the reliability issue we are seeing for passengers. While the booking tool can link people, if there is a limited pool, it restricts services for people who rely on door-to-door travel. That does not address the issue of taxi supply in terms of how it is booked.
Mr. Kieran Harte:
Competition is welcome. I ask members to make sure that the NTA is focused on solving the key problem we have spoken about, which is supply. If investment and resources need to go into building an app as opposed to putting grants into the marketplace and getting more drivers, we are not going to solve the problems in rural areas or cities relating to supply just by creating and investing in another app.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will talk about supply as well. Mr. Harte rightly said, it is a core issue. That being said, it is also important we talk about pricing. We have an important a role for consumers, passengers and drivers. With regard to rural areas, Mr. O'Gorman mentioned the local area hackney pilot the NTA has trialled. In terms of direct engagement from all three companies with the NTA on the design of rural schemes specifically focused on supply, outside of the general issues around barriers to entry that I have discussed with other bodies, what sort of engagement have the companies had with the NTA in terms of policy-driven interventions it needs to determine in rural areas and towns to address the overall shortage?
Mr. Kieran Harte:
As part of the Taxis for Ireland Coalition, we sent a white paper to the transport advisory committee and to the Minister about some of the downfalls of that local area hackney. I made the comment at the start of this session that the local area hackney scheme is only trying to solve issues in really small hinterlands where no taxi service exists. It ignores the fact there are huge supply issues where there is some taxi service. It is not fit for purpose. We need to start looking at serving rural services where there is an undersupply of taxis in the context of how we get more taxis into that marketplace. We have a number of ideas on how to do that that we submitted to the transport advisory committee and to the Minister.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will have to look at that area as a committee to inform the overall conversation. What the witnesses can share publicly to inform us on the subject would be useful. Ultimately, the attractiveness of the industry for drivers is important in terms of it being an income for them too. I thank all of the witnesses for their contributions.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I agree with Deputy Boyd Barrett. I fail to see how a public app would not be the obvious solution. The NTA invests money in this sector as it is.
I do not see how it is getting the return it needs. I will come back to the very same issue that supply will not be solved unless there are drivers, and drivers are those who have brought up this issue because they are not happy. The lack of engagement between all of the companies and drivers that we have been hearing about is not fixing the problem. The problem will not go away until there is proper open communication between the providers and drivers.
There does not seem to be a willingness to give straight answers on how people can directly engage and how important it is. Driver surveys have been spoken about but I do not hear engagement from the witnesses on the rights of the drivers and how it impacts their daily lives, not only with regard to their salaries but also their work-life balance. I do not see them being able to give a commitment to drivers to ensure they stay in the sector. This is the point I want to finish on. I have listened to all of the contributions. If drivers are not happy, they will not stay in the sector, and this will affect supply. I would love to hear any information the witnesses can provide about their engagement with drivers, what level this engagement is at and how these disputes will be resolved until the NTA makes a firm commitment. Freenow did not mention agreeing a national taxi strategy.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Freenow like to see a national strategy?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank everyone. The difficult job for me now is to sum up the past number of weeks. Between last week and today, we have heard different perspectives and the strong and consistent views of the taxi alliances. As I did last week, I acknowledge taxi drivers in general and the trusted service they provide the length and breadth of the country. We have heard evidence today from the platform operators. If there is agreement, it is on the scale of the challenge the sector faces, particularly on supply, accessibility and, obviously, driver income sustainability, which is directly related to the supply issue.
There are significant differences on pricing models, regulatory impacts and the distribution of risk and responsibility in the system. Then it comes back to the customer, who is at the heart of the work we do in the committee. When the citizen cannot get a taxi, more often than not it means they cannot get to work, to a healthcare appointment, perhaps to a school, and to so many areas of social participation. The committee will reflect and be very supportive of a national transport strategy. Any such strategy needs to focus on outcomes, improving availability at peak times, particularly in rural Ireland from where many of us come, stronger accessibility in practice and a fair and transparent framework that works for drivers and, in particular, for passengers. In any strategy we need to support more drivers to enter and remain in the sector.
The committee will continue to work in the context of advocating for a national strategy, and this is something for which there is support among the taxi alliances, and the witnesses confirmed it also in most of their opening statements. Support for a national taxi strategy is on the record, as is support for a strategic framework for the next ten or 20 years. We as a committee will continue to work with the NTA, the Department of Transport and all stakeholders. I encourage better stakeholder engagement between the platforms and their partners. It is very important. It is strong with some of them but not so strong with others. I ask them to reflect on this. Ultimately, we all have to work together, including platforms, drivers and customers. The committee will reflect on recommendations for shaping and prioritising any action in any national taxi strategy, including consideration of a national public transport app. In earlier evidence, examples were given of other countries and other jurisdictions.
I thank Mr. O'Gorman, Mr. Pooke, Mr. Harte, Ms Heathman and their colleagues for assisting the committee in this very important matter.