Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 27 January 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Special Needs Housing and Supported Housing: Discussion
2:00 am
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apologies have been received from Senator Pat Casey.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings.
Special needs housing and supported housing play a vital role in Ireland's social care and housing systems, providing tailored accommodation and support for people with disabilities and individuals with specific care or social needs. These housing models go beyond bricks and mortar by combining secure, appropriate homes with flexible support services that promote independent living, dignity and inclusion within the community. Today I am pleased that we have the opportunity to consider this and other related matters further with representatives from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We are joined by Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan, principal officer and Ms Clare Naughton, assistant principal officer.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to one another in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The opening statement supplied has been circulated to members and we will take it as read. I propose that we will publish the opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
To commence our consideration, we will go to the speaking rota. Deputy Séamus McGrath has six minutes.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. We all share a desire to increase the supply of suitable accommodation for people with extra needs, physical and mobility issues, and other additional needs, including intellectual disabilities and so on. I was a councillor for 17 and a half years and it was always a challenge at a local level to get suitable accommodation for people with additional needs who were on the housing list. While they may have had priority status on the housing list, that did not mean that they secured accommodation in the manner I would like in terms of the timelines. I ask the witnesses to outline under the new housing plan what is going to change on the ground with respect to the provision of suitable accommodation to individuals with disabilities and other additional needs.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I thank the Deputy. The important thing under the new housing plan is the national housing strategy for disabled people. That is a separate and distinct strategy that works under the framework of the new housing plan. In the context of the new housing plan, the Deputy will have seen from our opening statement, which was taken as read, that we are talking about 300,000 new homes out to 2030. Within that are 72,000 social homes and 90,000 affordable homes. Our job, in conjunction with the Housing Agency and local authorities, is to ensure the right delivery and allocation of housing within overall housing delivery. The national housing strategy for disabled people, working with in tandem with Delivering Homes, Building Communities, is to deliver on that objective.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As an overall set of objectives, that is welcome. On social housing, there is certainly scope for improvement. I can see that there could be movement in that regard. I will focus on those who do not qualify for social housing but may, for example, qualify for affordable housing and so on. Is any differentiation made in respect of affordable housing for those with disabilities? Could a certain percentage of that housing be set aside? Perhaps priority status could be given in that respect.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
There is no specific differentiation. The important thing, as we know, is getting affordable housing off the ground and to a delivery level. The Land Development Agency will be responsible for the delivery of significant affordable housing, working with local authorities. It has its own design guide to deliver housing for disabled people, such as its universal design apartment guidelines. Those are there. Our own design manual for quality housing sets the design framework for all social housing and local authority and approved housing body, AHB, housing. All local authorities and AHBs will be delivering to that framework. With that, there are clear universal design layouts and plans. It is about working with specific AHBs and local authorities. The local authorities will look at the demand at a local level and a strategic level within the county development plan's housing strategy and housing needs demand assessment. Looking more closely, the summary of social housing assessment shows that close to 6,000 people with a disability are on the social housing waiting lists. Those are clear targets for them to work through. They will then be delivering updated housing delivery action plans under the new strategy.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate Mr. O'Sullivan's reply. In terms of affordable purchase or affordable rental, no differentiation is made. Perhaps that is something we could take away and examine. We should look at that, in terms of-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the social housing list, we give priority status to someone with a disability. If they are seeking affordable purchase, there is no list, as such. If people are hoping to secure affordable purchase or cost rental housing, they do not get any additional status. That is a matter we should consider. I will park that issue because my time is tight.
As we know, the supply of social housing comes from a number of different sources. We get social units through Part V private developments. Let us look, for example, at turnkey developments where AHBs or local authorities acquire whole developments that had gone through the planning process as a potential private development. They do not necessarily have units that are already equipped and adapted for people with disabilities. To be fair to local authorities, where they are building their own schemes, they do provide a certain amount of units where accessible houses are available. In respect of other units that come to us, there is no such provision. Is there a way that we can try to get in early and capture more of those units for people with disabilities? Those might be turnkey developments under Part V. We need to get into the supply line as early as possible to ensure that we get an adequate proportion of houses or apartments that are suitable for those with disabilities.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The Deputy is absolutely correct. Strategies and implementation plans focus on that issue. There are clear examples of the delivery of housing for disabled people under Part V. This means that local authorities have to work at a deeper level, through the housing and disability steering groups established under our strategy. They have AHBs, local authorities and the HSE. In delivery of Part V, it is not just about wider social housing. I will give the Deputy an example. Crokers Hill is a good example of a Part V development. SOS Kilkenny, for example, is also delivering Part V acquisitions. There are multiple examples. It is happening. I agree with the Deputy that AHBs and local authorities must work harder to ensure access at an earlier stage. It is only at the earlier stage, where you get in at design level, that you can ensure accessible housing is delivered.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their submission. The place to start is to say that the housing strategy for people with disabilities is not functioning. All of us have in our constituencies families who have restricted mobility or additional or special needs. They wait longer than almost anybody else for their social housing allocations.
I appreciate it is the Department's job to ensure the right allocations. However, I do not believe that any local authority is making adequate provision for the different categories of special needs housing in their housing plans. That includes the good local authorities as well as the others.
There are four problems. The first is that the housing plans are not currently required to set out, year on year, what kinds of special needs housing are going to be provided, and why. The primary funding stream for this housing, the capital assistance scheme, CAS, is not fit for purpose. The four-stage process that has applied to date for CAS applications is crippling smaller AHBs. It is exceptionally difficult to get mixed tenure schemes over the line when they include, for example, special needs housing.
Are there any plans to have a much firmer proposition for local authorities to use the housing needs demand assessment tool so that in their housing plans into the future there will be specified numbers of units to meet the different special needs categories? That is my first question.
Is any consideration being given to amending CAS to combine it with an availability agreement, such as the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, so there is funding for ongoing maintenance?
Will the witnesses set out how the new one-stage process should address the problems arising from the four-stage process?
I know there is a single point of contact in the Department for mixed tenure schemes. I understand that it is exceptionally difficult to include in a mixed-tenure scheme application, for example, some specially adapted units or units with lift access.
Are there any proposals to further refine the mixed tenure clearance process to make easier to have special needs units in an overall social or social and affordable housing scheme?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
As regards year-to-year delivery, as I mentioned, for the housing delivery action plans, we had the first round under the previous strategy. Under the new housing plan, however, the Department will go out to local authorities later this year regarding guidance and setting out targets at local level. We obviously have-----
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will that require each local authority to set out year on year an assessment of the number of, for example, wheelchair liveable units, age-friendly units, etc., and to commit to those targets in, I presume, its five-year action plan?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The last round of plans did not have that, however. Is Mr O'Sullivan is saying this round of plans will definitely have that?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does this mean that if a local authority sends back a draft plan which does not have that, the Department will go back to it and state that there is no specific annual target for the various categories in special needs housing and that it must be redone and resubmitted?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am caught for time. I do not want to appear rude. CAS is not a proven funding model. Here is the problem with it. An AHB gets 90% of the capital funding and raises the other 10%. The differential rent does not cover the long-term management and maintenance or the sinking fund. Unlike general needs, for AHBs which get a capital payment and an availability agreement upfront, there is no management and maintenance availability agreement. It is a fundamental flaw. I appreciate that it is a larger capital payment upfront than CALF, but the fundamental flaw is that there is no availability agreement. That will create problems further down the line. Has consideration been given to amending CAS to include an availability agreement, even if the trade-off is a lower capital amount? Without that, the fundamental flaw in the model will remain. AHBs have informed the committee of that, so I am surprised the Department is not aware of it.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I am very much aware of it in the context of our engagement within the Department. To be clear, when the Deputy mentioned payment and availability, that is the case under CALF. Under CAS, however, we have the rental accommodation scheme. The economic rent should be used to build up sinking funds in order to ensure maintenance into the future. They are clearly different models. You cannot mix those models.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They are but the CAS-RAS model was a kind of Celtic tiger era workaround. It does not necessarily apply in the same way as CALF and the availability agreement. Surely it would make more sense to have an availability agreement model, rather than having this strange CAS-RAS arrangement and then a local authority stepping in. There is also the CAS rent supplement arrangement hanging over us from the Celtic tiger. Why would we not just do it in the same way as a CALF payment? The rental accommodation scheme was originally designed as a subsidy for people in the private rental sector. Its attachment to CAS was an add-on to fix a particular problem but it has not really fixed it.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The Deputy is talking about AHB sector delivery through CAS and CALF, and working with local authorities. Of the 50,000 units in AHB dwellings, 69% were delivered through CAS and CALF. CAS has delivered over 13,000 of these units and CALF has delivered just over 21,000. This demonstrates a model that is working.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It does not work in terms of the ongoing management and maintenance and sinking funds. My question is very specific. Has consideration been given to introducing an availability agreement for CAS, similar to the one that exists for CALF? If not, that is fine, but it would be worth exploring.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that a "Yes" or a "No" my specific question on whether it has been considered?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apologies. The question is not whether the Department would commit to it. I know it cannot do so. That is a matter for political decision. Is the Department giving any consideration to providing availability agreement payments for CAS-funded properties in this same way as under CALF? It is a simple question.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
That is not currently being looked at. It is in the context of the AHB strategic forum report. The Department is engaging with the Irish Council for Social Housing. Interestingly, there seems to be a challenge with the sector in that it is not necessarily charging the economic rent. The first step is in understanding that challenge before deciding to commit any Exchequer funding. We build in the evidence base in the first instance to understand the challenges.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the opening statement. Providing housing for people with special needs is proving very challenging. Part M, access and use, only provides for new dwellings to be visitable. Section 4 only speaks to providing access. Clearly, there is a profound difference between providing access and using a building as a permanent home. These building standard guidelines appear to fail the very people they are supposed to help. Are there plans to amend Part M regulations to address this serious issue? Will housing be more expensive to deliver in terms of design and construction? Is there a percentage in that regard? How does that compare with having a retrofitted house at a later stage?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
As the Deputy correctly highlighted, the building regulations apply to all new buildings, in particular new dwellings, regarding accessibility. The latter is an important provision that exists currently. The Deputy is referring to specific use. For example, if you want it to be at universal design level or universal design level for wheelchair accessibility, there are very unique needs. Building regulations apply to all buildings and dwellings. If there is any change to the standard - whatever the standard is - it would apply universally. I could never envisage that we would have a universal standard whereby there would be a fully wheelchair-liveable house.
A summary of social housing assessment is undertaken by the Housing Agency. For a couple of years now, it has been determining how many people on the social housing list require wheelchair-accessible houses. The number is around plus ten or 11 out of the entire number on the social housing waiting list. I have to caution people in that regard because it takes a couple of years to properly get through the full applications, when they are reviewed, in order to understand all the requirements. Currently, the evidence base does not demonstrate widespread need that would dictate a full overhaul of the building regulations. Nonetheless, the situation is kept under review. Important work is under way.
A cost-benefit analysis is being undertaken by the National Disability Authority in respect of universal design. We are working with it on that. We expect some output from that. The National Standards Authority of Ireland is developing a standard for universal design. That will be important. In the near future, we will have a national standard and if anyone wants to build to that standard, they will simply go to the National Standard Authority of Ireland to consult on that standard and build accordingly. It is progressive. In the same way that building standards and regulations have delivered to date, it is progressively improving them.
The Deputy is right, there a viability impact which could affect delivery of housing overall and cost-benefit analysis is the first step.
We are working with the National Disability Authority on that work, which will come to fruition once we have the evidence base in respect of the costs, and see what further policy changes, if any, can be made in that regard.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. O'Sullivan think that policy changes should be made?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
As I said, there is always room for progressive policy change. For example, the Irish Wheelchair Association introduced a campaign to try to change the building regulations to apply universal design and universal design plus universally. That is an impossible task because you would be building to a standard that not every person would require. It is evidence based at present. At local authority level, people know those who require it. Building to requirements is important. That is the first step.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. O'Sullivan's stated that in recent years funding approval for specialist housing delivery through the CALF has decreased. What was the main reason for this?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Through CALF.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I beg the Deputy's pardon. As we discussed with Deputy Ó Broin, the two principal funding mechanisms are CAS and CALF. CALF is broadly for general housing delivery. It is where the AHBs come in and deliver at scale. We find that they are delivering a level of universal design, for example in an apartment block, in a couple of units, but not in the entire block. Disability housing is primarily delivered through the capital assistance scheme. It is a significant scheme, notwithstanding that there may be challenges in both schemes. They are very different, because in the capital assistance scheme, they get 100% grant funding upfront. Under the CALF scheme, they only get 20% to 30% capital investment. They then have to borrow substantial funding. Maybe the smaller AHBs may not have the expertise or capacity to be able to activate that scheme. That could probably have an impact for smaller AHBs. The Department and the Housing Agency provide a programme team that can assist smaller AHBs in getting through the schemes that are available at departmental and national level.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for being here. Everybody agrees with the objective that people with additional needs should live independently and in appropriate housing. It is the priority. I am involved with the homeless sector, but I am also involved with an approved housing body. Recently, our organisation delivered a CAS-funded apartment for a person with a care background. That was in emergency accommodation. They were homeless but have additional needs. The engagement with the local authority was fairly positive and efficient but the overall process took eight months to complete just for one apartment. There were so many actors involved, including Tusla, the Department of housing and the HSE. It created a significant burden under CAS. Despite the funding being available, when it should have been simple and straightforward, it took eight months. I know from listening to other approved housing bodies, and I know some are presenting today, that supported housing for people with disabilities can deliver strong outcomes and good value for money, but delays and blockages in the system, wherever they are, mean that it does not deliver what we thought it would deliver in practice. Do the witnesses think delivery of housing for special needs and supported housing is improving or declining? Where do we stand regarding delivery?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Maybe I did not mention it at the outset, but when we talk about supported housing, as the Chair set out, it is bricks and mortar. More importantly, however, it is the care, health, and social care supports around that. That represents greater complexity. That is why there is engagement between us and the Departments of Health and disability, in conjunction with the HSE, to deliver supported housing. The Senator may be able to inform me better from his experience in delivering that CAS scheme. It is great to hear he is working on the delivery of that. As he knows, depending on the complexity of the disability, the supports that come in behind that are important. They have to dovetail. That adds to the complexity of delivery of disabled persons' housing, aside from general housing. That will always add to the timeframe, because the bricks and mortar may be moving along but we have to ask whether we have the funding and the support services.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With the way the AHB worked, the supports were there. We signed up to this in May and got the keys just before Christmas. It took forever. It should have been simple. The person's disability is not on the higher end of the spectrum. That is why we thought this would be a faster process. There seem to be some blockages in the system. The Irish Council for Social Housing is saying that the scheme only provided 300 homes last year. We are being approached by the councils to say that people with additional needs who are homeless need to be looked after, but it seems that with 300 houses supplied and rising demand, there is a gap in the system. In addition, the system not seem to be working. Where exactly does the blockage arise?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I agree with the Senator that demand is rising. The reason for that is that we are proactive in engaging with the HSE to ensure that residents who need to live in independent living settings complete a social housing application with the local authority, regardless of whether they want local authority housing or AHB housing. We have seen, as a consequence of that deep level of engagement with the HSE in the past number years, that starting to impact on the housing waiting list. That is an important point in the context of rising demand. Overall, local authorities are successful in delivering housing allocations for disabled people. In the region of 17% of overall housing allocations delivered in 2023 were for disabled people. That is 2,300 allocations. We are waiting for the validation before we go to the Minister with them but I expect to increase to closer to 20% in 2024 and probably similar levels afterwards. We are meeting the demand. I accept that demand is rising, but, equally, the local authorities-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They are people on the housing list. Maybe this is not in Mr. O'Sullivan's jurisdiction, but of those on the emergency accommodation list of 17,000, does he know how many might have disabilities or physical needs when it comes to housing?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The important figure is that relating to the overall housing waiting list. All these people would be on that list. Of the 60,000 people on the list, there are almost 6,000 with disabilities. As I mentioned, there was an allocations of 2,320 in 2023. The number is increasing. As much as demand is increasing, delivery is also increasing. However, it will be challenging as we get into dealing with those who have more complex disabilities. It is working. That is why we are happy that we have the structures in place. We have introduced a new structure at regional level because, as everyone knows, the HSE works in a different structure from local authorities. We decided to establish regional inter-agency groups where local authorities can sit down and talk to the HSE on a one-to-one basis structurally.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A critical area that I did not touch on earlier relates to supported living and accommodation suitable for our elderly citizens. This is an important issue that came up a lot in my interactions with constituents. We will be meeting other witnesses later to discuss the provision of specific accommodation for older citizens.
Regarding the Department and the roll out of age-friendly accommodation, downsizing accommodation, independent assisted living accommodation and so on, there is a huge deficit of this across the country at present. What are we going to do to try to increase this?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The new housing plan, Delivering Homes, Building Communities, has specific commitments regarding delivering for older people. We have been working very closely with the Minister, Deputy Browne, and Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, in the context of that section in the housing plan. There is a commitment to bring forward an action plan for housing delivery for older people. We have a working group established with the Minister of State. We are actively developing that action plan. Essentially, we have to increase housing for older people in social housing, but also in the private sector. There has to be a greater delivery. That is accepted. There are clear commitments in there. We will flesh these out in greater detail in the emerging action plan. This will ultimately ensure we get a proper share of the 300,000 homes that are going to be delivered over the next five years for older people. Housing for older people may be purpose built for older people or it may be adaptable over time.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his reply. The action plan on accommodation for older people is very welcome. It is something that is long overdue. As public representatives, we consistently hear from older people. They do not have those options. I was speaking to someone over the weekend who is living in a large four-bedroom house. They would gladly vacate that house if they had somewhere suitable to go. The reality is that they do not. What they are looking for is a smaller single storey unit within the community they come from to give them that option. Some local authorities have right sizing schemes, for example. However, there is not consistency throughout the country regarding the provision of that type of accommodation. We have a huge amount of work to do relating to providing suitable accommodation for our older citizens and accommodation that is age friendly. I welcome that. Is there a timeline for the action plan?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is coming down the tracks soon enough. On the broader accommodation for those with disabilities, physical needs and other needs, acquisitions have historically been used as a way of securing accommodation. There was specific funding available for acquisition of properties that would cater for those extra needs. Is that something the Department envisages will continue? A lot of acquisition funding has been diverted towards the tenant in situ scheme, for example. Is the provision of special needs accommodation something the Department believes will continue?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that funding competing with the tenant in situ scheme funding? Is it the same pot of funding?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fair enough. From my memory, allocations are made to local authorities in terms of acquisitions. I suspect there are competing demands-----
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The Deputy is right. I beg your pardon. The tenant in situ is one of the categories. There are about four categories, including homelessness and tenant in situ. Older people and disabled people are one of the four categories. The important thing that is called out is the category within the delivery of acquisition.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I understand. That is welcome. There are huge pressures on local authorities in relation to tenant to situ, notice to quit and so on. It is unfortunate that it is in the same pot of funding. If we could look at providing ring-fenced funding for those additional categories, it would be welcome because acquisitions have always been a proven way of securing suitable accommodation. We all know that local authorities are on the lookout for single-storey bungalows, for example, within towns and villages. That is important. I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to take that away and discuss that issue at a departmental level. I will certainly raise the issue further with the Minister.
The older person accommodation is critical. We need to get that action plan up and running as soon as possible. Again, we have to get in at the earlier stages of the supply line of housing, not just the housing we are building ourselves but the housing we acquire through Part V, approved housing bodies, turnkey schemes and so on. We have to get in there early. I have gone to launches of apartment blocks through the Land Development Agency where there are accommodations of social housing and affordable renting. What proportion of those are suitable for people with extra needs? In many cases, it is very little. We have to get in at the earliest point of supply. That is the key message I would like to deliver today.
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I fundamentally disagree with some of the comments that Mr. O'Sullivan has made. I will address them. He referred to "disabled people". Any of the disability advocacy groups would always say that they are people with disabilities and they are not disabled people. They are human beings, the same as everyone else, who just live with a disability. I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to check his language there.
On Mr. O'Sullivan's comment that the house is just bricks and mortar, I suggest that care and social care support around it are the important things. He referenced the Irish Wheelchair Association and its universal living standards that it has asked to be adhered to. It is unhelpful that Mr. O'Sullivan said in one of his comments that if the builder wants to build it, those strategies are there. These people living with disabilities do not want to have a house a certain way. They need to have a house a certain way. If somebody is in a wheelchair, they are not able to go up the stairs without a house that is adapted for them. We have to be really respectful of this cohort of people who are living with a disability and trying to live independently and ensure that we are doing everything we can. The Government is failing people who are living with disabilities.
Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned that the demand is increasing, but delivery is increasing. That is not in line the figures I have in front of me. Specialist housing delivery collapsed from 710 homes in 2022 to 325 in 2025. We are reading totally different reports. Will Mr. O'Sullivan share all the data that he is discussing with the committee? Why has specialist housing delivery collapsed so much from 710 houses in 2022 to 325 in 2025? I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to address the points he made in reference to the Irish Wheelchair Association because the organisation will be in with the committee shortly. It will be interested to hear his points on this. There are currently very few social homes that meet the standard of somebody living with disability to be able to live in them and not just be able to visit them. This is a huge area that the Department is not addressing for people living with disabilities. I would like the witnesses to talk more about that. A total of 10% of social homes to be given for people with disabilities is such a small number. Yet the local authorities do not seem to have any targets. It seems that it is an area that is pushed to one side. Yet all these people deserve to be treated like equal situations.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
I agree with the Senator wholeheartedly that language is important when it comes to people with disabilities or disabled people. Both of those terms are so important. Our strategy sets that out. She is absolutely right. There will be one cohort of disabled people who will say that they want to be called "people with disabilities" because it is their disability. The other cohort of people will say that they want to be called "disabled people" because it is the system that is disabling them. The Senator said that we are not delivering-----
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is the system that is disabling them but-----
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have worked as a volunteer for many years with the Irish Wheelchair Association. It is one of the things that they have always brought up. I have a daughter with autism, and I understand in a wide range of areas with disabilities that is the language they request. If Mr. O'Sullivan hears differently elsewhere, it is very different from anything I have ever heard. I have to make that point.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
We have engaged very closely because we have the national implementation steering group.
The disabled persons organisations and the disability sector are represented on that, so we are hearing it directly. I welcome hearing it from Senator McCormack as well. We are hearing the lived experience directly and we are hearing both. This is why we set it out very clearly in the strategy so that we are covering all people. The National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025-2030, which the Taoiseach and Tánaiste published, is a whole-of-government strategy that was published last year, so the language is interchangeable-----
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can agree to disagree on that one. Mr. O'Sullivan might just move on to the next point because, respectfully now-----
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Yes. I think that the figures the Senator is referring to are for CAS units delivered. I have data here. For example, there would have been 710 units delivered in 2022. In 2024, there would have been 530 units delivered. These are multi-year deliveries, though, so it is not just what was spent in that year. A unit is not necessarily commenced or finished in a particular year. One will get peaks and troughs in delivery, so we have to see overall if delivery is increasing. We are seeing a 15% increase in delivery-----
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry but we are going to be out of time. Will Mr. O'Sullivan share that data? I have different data here, with 710 homes in 2022 and 325 homes in 2025. I am seeing a significant drop there. Will Mr. O'Sullivan please share that data with the committee? I am over time.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will give time for a reply to that question, if Mr. O'Sullivan wishes to reply.
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With those figures.
Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witness.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can circulate them.
I have a couple of questions and then we will go back to Deputies Ó Broin and McGrath again. How much money is spent adapting existing local authority houses? We have not built sufficient houses that are adapted, have downstairs bedrooms or are single-storey accommodation. Deputy McGrath referenced local authority estates across the country where there is a clamour to buy nearly every bungalow that comes up for sale. I have seen it in a lot of areas where the price went up because there was a demand there. Families who may have been looking to purchase might have been outbid by a local authority because it had that need for someone with a disability. Why are we not building enough single-storey accommodation or accommodation with downstairs bedrooms and adapted toilets so that we do not have to start spending significant money adapting them? Is there a figure for the costs that have been spent to adapt current units, particularly for persons with disabilities?
With regard to elderly people who ultimately need that type of accommodation, have we considered assisted living villages and building single-storey accommodation villages where we could assist persons in their older age? It is a point that is brought to every single public representative. There are people who live in three-, four- or five-bedroom houses and the family is gone. They would like the opportunity of having a scheme where they could downsize into a one- or two-bedroom house and there would be assisted living. This would then make their original houses available for their families or other persons to purchase.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The Government has provided for €130 million in 2026 for housing adaptation grants for private housing. For the adaptation of social housing, there is a €28.5 million capital allocation, which is expected to deliver some 1,800 adaptations to existing social homes. With regard to the private house grants, we could deliver in the region of 17,000 grant claims this year. I think we have delivered in the region of 1,500 this year. These are very successful multi-annual schemes that are already in place.
On right-sizing, and as I said to Deputy McGrath, the commitments in the action plan for Delivering Homes, Building Communities 2025-2030 contain a specific action with regard to looking at the financial contribution schemes that are active at local authority level. We will have to do a body of work there. More importantly across the new housing plan, it is about delivering the right types of houses and delivering the one-bedroom and two-bedroom units. As we know from the structure of housing in this country, there are arguably too many larger houses because there were larger families historically. Now, the whole profile of our demographics is changing and, therefore, we need to change the whole structure so that, when somebody wants to sell a larger house, they have the option in their locality to buy a smaller house and downsize to that. This will take time but that is the focus in delivering more one- and two-bedroom units, both in the social housing sphere and in private housing.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have met with Sue Ryder Ireland, which provides assisted living and the opportunity for someone who is not on a social housing list to rent a one- or two-bedroom apartment at a higher cost than would be the case for someone who has come off a social housing list. I think we need to look at something like that to provide this opportunity for people with three- or four-bedroom houses. Needless to say, if they sell their houses, they are not eligible for social housing. There is no private developer building one- or two-bedroom houses. Can we as the State step in and build those one- and two-bedroom homes but allow people to downsize? At the minute, they cannot because they are not eligible, bar they go through a AHB such as Sue Ryder Ireland.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
We will explore all avenues in that regard. It is not a straightforward option in a housing market that is very challenging cost-wise. Even if people are moving from larger housing, it is not necessarily the younger person, first-time buyer or disabled person who would be accessing that larger house. We have to consider who will purchase that house. That is a challenge in terms of changing demographics. More important in the first instance is providing the option for a smaller property that suits the person's needs as they progress through their life stages. We know that, as people get older, they acquire disabilities with age, so we must ensure that the unit is adapted to suit their needs.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for the responses so far. I have a very quick comment and then four follow-up questions. It is important for our committee that when we are talking about special needs housing, we are talking about housing for people with disabilities, both physical and intellectual. We are talking about wheelchair users, age-friendly housing and supported housing, including people exiting homelessness through Housing First or people who have mental ill health or other challenges. It is a broad range. I am only saying that because while the disabilities element of it is really important, we should not lose sight of the others.
Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned two figures for people on the social housing waiting list, one figure of around 6,000 and a figure of over 2,000 allocations for 2013. I would not mind if Mr. O'Sullivan could just explain in a little bit more detail what those figures refer to. I might come back to him as he does that.
I would be interested to know if Mr. Sullivan has figures with him for the total number of CAS properties currently in situ, and if not, will he share them with the committee later? Of those, how many currently have a CAS-rental accommodation scheme, RAS, arrangement? That would be interesting to know.
In his response to other members of the committee, Mr. O'Sullivan seemed to say that the Department was not considering the Irish Wheelchair Association's call for a review Part M of the building regulations. Will Mr. O'Sullivan comment further on that?
There were two questions in the first round that Mr. O’Sullivan did not get the chance to answer because I kept interrupting him, so it was my fault. Will things improve for special needs housing as a result of the one-stage process? Does Mr. O’Sullivan accept that there are some challenges with getting small numbers of special needs units into mixed-tenure developments because of the nature of the approval process?
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
As regards the social housing assessment numbers, I mentioned a figure of almost 6,000 there. The Deputy is quite correct. There is a range of disabilities and needs. Intellectual disability accounted for 1,923, physical disability was 1,824, mental disability was 1,615 and sensory disability was 566. That is the breakdown of that requirement. As regards the allocations, I mentioned a figure of 2,300. This is out of the overall allocations. There were in the region of 13,600 allocations made in 2023. The 2,300 allocations come out of that overall allocation.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are they allocations of first-time tenancies or do they also include transfers for people on the transfer lists waiting for a more appropriate unit?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Obviously, the 6,000 figure consists of folks on the list. It does not include the gross figure of folks on the transfer lists. Do we have what the gross figure would be for special needs housing?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If Mr. O'Sullivan gets that figure, he could share it with the committee. The only reason I am making the distinction is that 2,000 allocations in a given year sounds like a situation where if there are 2,000 allocations and there are 6,000 people waiting on the list, those 6,000 will be got through very quickly. I suspect, but I could be wrong, that if there was a breakdown of the allocations, there might be far more of those on the transfers list, or an even distribution of those on the transfer list, versus new allocations. Therefore, having the gross needs figure - combining the transfer list and the housing list - would be really useful to get a sense of the challenge.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
We will come back to the Deputy on that point. It is important when it comes to transfers, though, to say that disability is probably the primary reason for the transfer. Therefore, as we have discussed, it is moving people into more appropriate accommodation to suit their disabilities.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is, but many of us will have experience of families who go onto the medical priority transfer list. Let us say, for example, that there is an acquired disability or a change in their mobility. Depending on the type of property they need, the length of time people can wait on the medical priority transfer list can be exceptionally long, especially if they need ground floor units or units that have ground floor bedrooms and bathrooms. I do not know what it is like in the Cathaoirleach's constituency, but I suspect the experience is the same in the urban areas like Cork and Dublin. The more of that data that could be shared with our committee, the better, because that would be really useful beyond what is in the summary of social housing needs assessments.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Yes. The point I was making regarding the Irish Wheelchair Association's campaign was that the building regulations apply to all new dwellings, therefore whatever standard, or uplift or change in those standards, would apply. Until we understand the cost, we could not necessarily impose a standard where every house would be wheelchair-liveable, for example.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sure, but the purpose of the review would be to include that. What the Irish Wheelchair Association is calling for at the minute, which I think is eminently reasonable, is a review of Part M. Part of the reason for this is that our current building control regulations, including for universal design, do not include a design that would allow a wheelchair user to fully access and live in the property adequately. It is about visitability and not habitability, which is quite bizarre. Mr. O’Sullivan is absolutely right, of course, that costs must be taken into account. The call of the Irish Wheelchair Association right now, though, is for a review of Part M, and that review, like any review of any building regulation, should include a costing review as well, similar to the recent review of Part B. Mr. O’Sullivan seemed to suggest in his earlier comment - I could have misinterpreted him - that the Department was against such a review. Surely, the Department will be open to such a review to look at all of those issues.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
Yes. Just to be clear, the cost-benefit analysis that is under way in the National Disability Authority, which we are working with, is going to be a key input. Once that report is finalised and published, we are committed under the national housing strategy for disabled people to consider it. This means that all matters will be on the table at that point, including Part M.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am almost out of time. What is the total number of CAS properties? Of those, how many have CAS-RAS arrangements? If Mr. O’Sullivan does not have that information, it would be great if he could share it with the committee later.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could a new CAS property avail of the RAS supplement or are they just a certain historic set of CAS tenanted properties?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Some data on that would be interesting, not just on the total number but on how many there are each year, or something like that, if the Department has it.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to supply that to us. I will just let in Deputy McGrath now. I am conscious of the time.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Chair.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will be brief because I know we need to start the next session at 4.15 p.m.. We have a busy schedule and a lot of groups coming in.
Deputy Ó Broin mentioned the broad category of people we were here to talk about - older persons, people with disabilities, including intellectual disabilities, people with mental health issues and so on. There is a broad need there. We are talking about housing supply to meet the accommodation needs of those individuals. There are two distinct categories. There is the provision of independent living accommodation and the provision of supported living accommodation. On the supported living accommodation, as a country, we are not doing well at all. With the exception of some approved housing bodies, the country does not in any way meet the need out there. In terms of the new housing plan and the action plan for elderly people and so on, it is critical that we put in place more supported living accommodation and that the local authorities get into that space because, in my experience, they are not in that space. I will give Mr. O’Sullivan the opportunity to come back in response to those points. I will leave it at that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sorry. If I was not clear, I mean a local authority offering a house to someone in a wheelchair or with mental health issues, and the person then occupying that house without wraparound services necessarily being available. That is independent living in the purest sense. In terms of supported housing, there may be a cluster of houses or some additional support within the development or structure. That is what I mean by "supported".
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
In this regard, we look at them in the totality and, in particular, working with the HSE. It is important to put it in the wider context of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, in that the commitment there is to provide for independent living. In other words, a disabled person has the same rights as any other person in their choices, how they want to live and who they want to live with. For example, if they go onto the housing waiting list, they do so in the same manner as anyone else. In providing them with that independent living setting, it could be something very basic, like a relatively standard house with some limited adaptations. On the supported side, it could be working with a care and support AHB to provide the housing, with a higher level of support to provide the independent living, which is totally funded through the HSE. Indeed, local authorities could engage in providing a higher level of supports as long as they worked in partnership with a care and support AHB, for example, one of the section 38 or section 39 organisations under the HSE. All those options are available for people in order to deliver on their right to choose to live independently.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I take the point, but I feel much better co-ordination is needed between all of the groups Mr. O’Sullivan mentioned because I think the provision of independent living,in its purest sense, where someone is handed a set of keys and told that is their home and they are on their own, happens quite a lot at a local authority level. In terms of supported living, though, there are additional supports around people. It may be a complex, where there is a caretaker, for example.
These kinds of additional supports are not traditionally provided in the context of local authority housing. We need to get into that space a little more. There has to be greater co-ordination between all the service providers, including the HSE and section 39 organisations.
Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:
The Deputy is absolutely right in that it is about co-operation, engagement and collaboration. We are doing it very effectively at national level. At the local level, it is being done. The housing and disability steering groups comprise a significantly important structure within the local authorities, because the HSE is sitting on them. The lived-experience person will be sitting on the steering group, and the director of services will probably be chairing it. That is where we have co-operation and collaboration regarding all types of housing needs within the local authority areas. As I mentioned, our regional interagency groups are going to strengthen co-operation, particularly between the HSE and local authority housing co-ordinators.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I wish to comment. I thank our guests very much for the responses. They are all very helpful. However, I want to put on the record my disappointment that HSE officials did not attend this session of the committee meeting. Having been on this committee for a decade, I acknowledge that officials in the Department of housing come to our meetings pretty much at the drop of a hat. Whenever we ask, they always make themselves available. However, there has been a pattern over many years of officials from the HSE, and in fact the Department of Health, appearing reluctant to appear before this committee to discuss their roles, particularly where, as Deputy McGrath outlined, they are responsible for the provision of housing supports. I hope there is no reluctance. I know the Chair has corresponded with them to try to get them to attend. It is important that we do not just have interaction with the Department of housing and local authorities but that we also have interaction with the HSE and the Department of Health. They have a key role and therefore their officials need to appear before this committee. I hope they will respond positively to the Chair's request. They have a central role. To emphasise Deputy McGrath’s point, many of us will know that the experience on the ground depends on the individual rather than consistent practice across the board. That is not acceptable and needs to be addressed when we engage with the HSE.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Deputy Ó Broin. I, too, wished to highlight that. I thank the departmental officials who are present. Their Department always makes officials available, even at short notice, and we appreciate that. We requested attendance by officials from the HSE but they have not attended. We have sent further correspondence and await their reply. We will follow up to seek their attendance to speak on this important issue.
I thank Ms Naughton and Mr. O’Sullivan for their time. I propose that we suspend briefly to allow the next group of witnesses to take their seats for our next session.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will now continue our discussion on special needs housing and supported housing. I welcome the all the representatives. From the Housing Association for Integrated Living, we are joined by Ms Martina Smith, Ms Denise Cronin and Ms Julie Cruickshank. From the Irish Council for Social Housing, we are joined by Ms Lyndsey Anderson. From Fold Housing, we are joined by Ms Tina Donaghy, Ms Anne Marie Gavin and Ms Martina Conroy. From the Irish Wheelchair Association, we are joined by Ms Jean Coleman, Mr. Conor Lynott and Mr. Rosaleen Lally.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations of parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references they may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The opening statements have been circulated to members. I will take them as read. I propose that we publish them on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The first speaker is Deputy Ó Broin, who has six minutes.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will let my colleague take the first Sinn Féin slot and I will take the second, if that is okay.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Therefore, I call Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú, who is substituting for Deputy Thomas Gould.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A poor substitute, but anyway. Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir.
I want to raise a huge issue. Deputy Ó Broin, in particular, dealt with many of the relevant issues. We do not have proper planning, in any way, shape or form, in relation to disability housing and the need that exists. Rather than getting caught up in numbers that do not exist, could the witnesses give voice to the need that exists? I know anecdotally, and from the organisations and individuals who have approached me, that there is no capacity to deal with those with disabilities.
In a perfect world where we had universal design, we would have houses that could be easily and cheaply adapted and all the rest of it. That probably involves a far more fundamental conversation with those that design and build. Even before that, we have adaptation grants that do not necessarily cut the mustard. While it can be great when someone gets an adaptation grant, it will not cover the full cost in relation to it, particularly when we are talking about families of children who are getting older and have severe mobility issues. We constantly meet people and talk about how brilliant we are with assisted living, yet in very few cases is that here to offer. Will the witnesses give voice to the huge issue that is out there in relation to the delivery of future-proofed housing, but beyond that, the need, which includes everything from the unit through to those who require added supports to live in their own home?
Ms Tina Donaghy:
I thank the committee for inviting us along for this important discussion. Basically, we have the expertise within the sector. I am from Fold Housing. We provide housing and care services for older people. The expertise is within the sector. However, that needs to be supported with a sustainable funding stream, partly in terms of capital funding to cover the construction element. We are delighted with the CALF and P and A model and we utilise that on ongoing basis. However, it would help us deliver more if that were supported with a long-term revenue funding stream from the HSE to give us more sustainable options. Fold is somewhat unique in not only providing accommodation to enable our older people to live independently for as long as possible, but we also provide housing with 24-hour care and support. That is for people with more complex needs, such as frailer and older people and people living with dementia. We have evidence that we have been able to keep about 3,500 people out of nursing care in our care services facility, which has been operating since about 2007. That is a significant saving to the Exchequer.
We know that this model also delivers about a 50% reduction in costs compared with other housing options in private sector and nursing care. We can provide that care structure in terms of bricks and mortar, the housing and the services, but we need a supporting revenue stream to support ongoing management of the service.
Our independent living is a really popular model. We have nearly 700 purpose-built universal design homes that enable people to maintain their independence and live as long as possible in their own home. There is evidence to show that we should try to keep people living independently at home as long as they are safe and secure. We have CCTV, door entry systems and connectivity in terms of smart technology. They can link in with our 24-hour contact centre if there is an emergency within the building or with an individual in terms of their health and safety. We can keep people living independently, safe and secure. We have lots of models to demonstrate the high levels of satisfaction. Ballygall Road East was one of our first independent living units, as was one in Dolphin's Barn. They are really successful. There are very high levels of satisfaction. We can keep going at that. We work really closely with our partners in local authorities, the Housing Finance Agency, the Department of housing and the Department of Health, and we can keep delivering that model given this funding stream. However, we could do more if we had added funding for communal facilities to help integration, to help people avoid isolation and continue to provide those services. If we got a bit of support in capital funding for the communal facilities and also the revenue funding, that would be welcome.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I get that. I would also work on the basis that the need is so huge out there that we are only tipping at the edges. We want to see places like the new place in Dundalk, Connolly's Field, for over-55s. Ms Donaghy also made the point that the HSE has a role here. Either way, we need a full package from the Government that actually delivers. I spoke earlier about adaptation grants. I have found at times that we need to make sure the HSE comes on board, particularly for the more expensive cases, and people get caught. For example, if a person has bought a council house and gets the adaptation grant but their circumstances may change after a child is born with a disability or whatever, they may not be able to adapt that house. It could have been bought from a council. I am thinking of a particular example. When they attempt to sell it, the problem is there is a clawback, and they are going to be caught in a scenario where they will not be able to get a house to deliver. There is huge need, and it is about getting real about how we deliver upon that.
Ms Tina Donaghy:
We do find that because of the cohort that we look after, we can develop at scale. The Deputy mentioned Connolly's Field. There are 70 apartments there. They will facilitate people ageing in place. They will keep those people living safe and secure in their own homes. The universal design is excellent. There is level access. There is no need, if the person's needs change, for them to move. They can stay in their own home and whatever service is needed can be brought in to them because they have the level access and accessibility throughout.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise; I missed the first two minutes there. I thank the witnesses for being here today and for coming before the committee. We had a discussion in the earlier session with the Department officials in relation to the Department's work, the new housing plan and the various action plans that are proposed in that regard. We all agree that a lot of work is required to provide the level of accommodation that is needed for people with disabilities, whether they be physical disabilities, intellectual disabilities, mental health issues or, of course, housing for our elderly citizens. There is a huge body of work to be done there. One of the points I made was the need for us as a country to get involved at the earlier stages of the supply line so that we can design appropriately. In the case of many of the houses that come to local authorities or approved housing bodies through Part 5, such as turnkey developments and so on, very often the design is already baked in. It is already done and you do not have the flexibility. Is that something the witnesses have come across as an issue?
Ms Rosaleen Lally:
From the Irish Wheelchair Association's perspective, absolutely, it has been an issue and continues to be an issue. My colleagues can speak to other points. From a design point of view, we are so familiar. We work with lots of local authorities across the country and a lot of housing agencies and approved housing bodies. The level of inconsistency and confusion that is out there around what is required for a wheelchair-liveable home is huge at every level. Even the experts in the field are quite confused. We as an organisation welcome the new standards that we are working on with the National Standards Authority of Ireland, which are due to go to public consultation in quarter 2 of this year. We are optimistic that this will provide consistency for developers and local authorities across the board for universal design, UD. homes and UD home+. UD homes, for some people, mean wheelchair-liveable, such as a user of a smaller wheelchair or manual wheelchair, but most people need the UD home+. That is encouraging. The cost-benefit analysis that is under way by the NDA is also encouraging. After a lot of delay, we are hoping it will be completed this year. While that is really encouraging and there are lots of strategies and plans out there, it is not being delivered on. Until those standards are brought into regulation, we feel that this is the only way the housing crisis for people with disabilities will be resolved. The building regulations need to be reviewed and those new standards must be brought into regulation so that local authorities have power to ensure that a percentage of all new developments are built to UD and UD home+ standards. That is the bottom line really and that is what needs to happen.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Consistency, or the lack thereof, is a huge issue in relation to design standards in Ms Lally's experience. Very often, we see local authorities carrying out adaptation works because the design was not up to standard. That costs extra money and it is eating into the funding that is available. We need to get out in front and deal with this at the earliest possible time. That is a key message across the board.
I am caught for time here. I want to focus on housing for older people. I know that is something Fold focuses on. There is a huge deficit of it across the country, in all forms, whether it is downsizing options, supported living or otherwise.
There are a range of different options and models there but, unfortunately, we do not have enough of any of them. That is a huge issue. I know there is an action plan proposed in the new housing plan in terms of accommodation for our older citizens, but it is something on which we need to get moving quickly.
I thank the witnesses for the work they are doing in this area. What are their key insights into what is needed to try to move this forward so that we can provide real options for people? As they said, keeping people out of institutions and nursing homes and so forth should be our ultimate aim.
Ms Tina Donaghy:
We work closely with our partners in local authorities and we do our own planning and design to deliver on these. Our big ask is funding for the communal facilities. At the moment, under the CALF and purchase and availability models, up to 30% of funding is available and we have to fund the remaining 70%. When building at scale, it can start to tot up and cost the organisation a lot of money.
We would also like some joined-up thinking when it comes to the revenue stream to support operations. The communal facilities help keep people connected and they give us an opportunity to engage. We roll out a number of initiatives in partnership with Age Friendly Ireland, such as exercise and flower design classes, book clubs, walking clubs or whatever it may be. We try to integrate health and well-being into all of our services, but that is at a cost to the organisation. There is no additional funding for that. That would help.
Another big ask relates to our housing with care programme. It has been externally validated and we know the value it delivers to the Exchequer. We love the model and there are high levels of satisfaction among those living in it. The issue with the scheme is that we only receive annual funding from the HSE to support those people living there. We must wait every year and, usually, there is a shortfall at the end of every year. It is not sustainable because when we are turning to the Housing Finance Agency, HFA, or private funders in the context of developing other independent living accommodation, they look at that part of our business as a risk due to the lack of regular revenue funding. We need multi-annual funding from the HSE to support our housing with care scheme.
The third ask is to work positively with the committee to look at a new funding stream that would cover both revenue and capital and deliver on some form of an extra care model or assisted living that would give people a choice. The only choices people have at the moment are to remain in their home, which may well be underoccupied and could be recycled back into the wider housing stock, or go into nursing care prematurely when they cannot return from hospital or their housing no longer suits their needs. The options for independent living are very limited. Those are our asks.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that. The key message relates to the capital and revenue models. While there is a structure and model base for the capital model, when it comes to the revenue model and the ongoing running and support costs, there is a huge issue that has not been met to date. That is a key message we need to take away.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. Unfortunately, I was tied up with another meeting, which I will have to return to. I compliment the witnesses on the fantastic work they are doing. I have read the opening statements. There is concern in those statements, specifically with regard to supplying facilities into the near future. I know of one voluntary approved housing association that spent a lot of time and effort trying to deliver a couple of houses for people with disabilities in my area. It had an overcomplicated, uphill battle to get an approval due to constant challenges around the non-standard design, higher capital and operational costs and potential occupancy rates. Is that the experience of the witnesses’ organisations? What steps can the Department take to fix this?
Ms Jean Coleman:
It certainly is our experience and we have brought this up with the Department. Its design manual for quality housing mentioned that it will streamline and speed up housing delivery but there is a big gap because there are no UD home+ designs included in it. There are designs for UD apartments, which, as my colleague mentioned earlier, will suit some small wheelchair users and small wheelchairs, but there is a big gap in this regard. We have to start moving away from bespoke and special designs because there is nothing special. We need to move away from the terminology of “special needs”. We are talking about someone having a home in which they can access all parts of it. Let us get away from the bespoke solutions and having to jump through hoops to receive funding. We had to do so ourselves with a particular county council. To be fair, it jumped through a lot of hoops, but it should not have to be done like that. We want a home where someone can access all parts of it, full stop. Maybe Mr. Lynott would like to talk about his experience because it ties in with something that was mentioned earlier in the areas of health and housing.
Mr. Conor Lynott:
I thank the committee for this opportunity. With the permission of the Chair, I wish to make three points. I am a university graduate and I have entered the workforce. I am one of the lucky ones who are in accommodation that is properly suitable and wheelchair accessible, even if it is only transitional accommodation. My ability to move out and give others the same opportunity depends on the housing situation and building regulations like UD+ designs, which both Ms Coleman and Ms Lally mentioned. There is a lack of wheelchair-liveable housing and that needs to improve because otherwise I will not be able to move out due to a lack of options. Other people will not get the same opportunity as a result.
When I was searching for suitable housing on platforms such as daft.ie or Facebook Marketplace, it became clear to me that the idea of wheelchair-liveable accommodation is not mainstream, and that remains the case. One simple conversation with a previous owner or developer often revealed there was no housing available according to my criteria. It was quite clear they had no idea of what it took to design a house for wheelchair users and had no experience of disability at all. In order for that to improve, the idea of wheelchair-liveable housing needs to be mainstream and we must adapt the building regulations accordingly. While it would not solve everything, it would go a long way as a first step towards that.
If the committee can take anything away from my personal account, let it be this: people with disabilities are citizens and members of the community first and service recipients second. When it comes to Government policy in the area of disability, they are service recipients first. That has been clear in a number of disability areas, not just housing. A step in the right direction would be for the current Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, Deputy Higgins, to have powers to both attend and vote at Cabinet and be accountable to the Dáil. That would be a step in the right direction to show a recognition from the Government that people with disabilities are active citizens and members of the community first and service recipients second. I thank the Chair.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Lynott for that. Well done
Ms Martina Smith:
HAIL provides housing for people with severe and enduring mental health difficulties. We predominantly look for one-bedroom apartments. It is really important at the outset to have access to that in terms of planning. In order to deliver those efficiently we need continued and equal access to viable capital funding, especially the CALF and private finance model. The CAS model as it stands is not viable - it is not viable in the long term. For financial stability and resilience into the future we need access to a model that works for us in the long term.
It is also very important when we are developing new homes that we have HSE engagement from the outset and we have commitment to revenue funding as well as capital funding. That holistic approach really does help sustain tenancies in the long term. HAIL has just under 500 units and we have a 98% tenancies sustainment rate. We are delivering that service at a huge and significant saving to the State. We set out in our statement that it is approximately €2,900 per person per year. Compared with putting someone in long-term institutional care, that is a huge amount of savings. We need to invest at the outset, provide a really good framework in our funding models and the HSE commitment and the State will benefit from that in the long term. Mr. Lynott spoke very well on how the people benefit in their communities in their independent homes as well.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has the Deputy another question? I will add on a bit of time.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Fold's experience clearly demonstrates a growing gap in the provision of appropriate alternatives for older people. This gap needs urgent action. We are well aware of the pressures on nursing homes and home help. What action can we take to try to improve the situation? It is tough out there.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms Anderson want to come in on that? I want to share the time around
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
I want to give a very broad overview of the AHB sector. In coming in and asking for our priority areas and actions we want to see addressed we sometimes skip over the fact that what the committee is hearing from is a sector that has over 40 years experience of specialist housing delivery. We are coming in offering in advice, experience and expertise in that. When we talk about the CAS we have really strong support from the Department of housing. We see that in the AHB strategic forum report. We have structured engagement with it now on a quarterly basis. We are optimistic the concerns we highlighted in relation to the CAS, capital and revenue are being investigated and explored. We have built up that experience and expertise through the CAS primarily. That scheme has been the one many of our members use. The committee is hearing from three very solid and strong AHB deliverers in the room but there are many AHBs across the country that deliver specialist housing that others are not doing and have not done over that 40-year period. When we come with issues and experience it is built off those 40 years of working with people, with tenants, to deliver in the communities where it is required. We have a strong understanding of the need that is out there. From a sectoral perspective, we need to pay attention to the housing delivery action plans that will be developed. It is really important to us that the consultation process around that heavily involves AHB engagement. If that is the means by which we will identify need and who will respond to that need, then we need to be strong and active players in developing out those plans so we can respond to them. We are not doing this in terms of an objective request. We are doing it from the point of view of those 40 years of experience. I want people to see this more as an offering than a demand. This is coming from a place of experience and expertise. Nobody in the room is speaking from any position other than having all that wealth of knowledge behind them. All that is an opportunity to be learned from and not a request to be involved. I really hope that comes across here.
There are data gaps. We do not know the current level of need. We have indications about the level of need but we know that particularly with disability housing that the need is hugely under-reported. That is one side of the data gap. CAS is an easy scheme for us to talk about in terms of how much specialist housing has been delivered. We do deliver specialist housing, and particularly older person’s housing, through the CALF model but we do not know those numbers because that is not collated in any form. We have a massive data gap there. We can talk about gaps we are aware of but there are other gaps which we know are there that we have not filled yet. Those are two needs which would be quite easy to respond to, that is the actions and the data gap. I would leave the committee with the thought that it is an offering and an opportunity from the sector.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
From my working background, from people coming to me in my constituency and from the witnesses' presentation it is very clear disabled people are one of the groups which have been most failed by our housing policies in this country at the moment. It is one of the groups which is really suffering from the housing crisis, whether it is homelessness, people stuck in inappropriate institutions or those stuck on housing waiting lists. The numbers are very stark. Almost 5,000 households with various forms of disability are on housing waiting lists. In terms of homelessness, a significant proportion of those in emergency accommodation right now have a disability, whether it is an intellectual or physical disability. It is a complete failure of our State that we have people with disabilities who are in emergency accommodation which is completely inappropriate. As the witnesses have said, people with disabilities are citizens first and they should be treated like that. They should be treated as rights holders. That is what I believe – that housing is a human right and people with disabilities have a right to proper adequate housing. I have particular concerns about the level of need that was mentioned. Will the witnesses address that and give their sense of what the actual level of housing need is among people with disabilities? Then on specific areas, if anyone has experience in working with people with disabilities in emergency accommodation will they outline some of that?
Have the witnesses any concerns in relation to proposals to increase rents? Rents will be reset to market rents. What impact will this have on people with disabilities? There is huge reliance on, for example, the housing assistance payment and trying to get accommodation through that.
The witnesses mentioned CAS. What is not working in it specifically? What needs to change? Things that are being investigated and explored were mentioned. Will they spell those out in more detail?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who is the Deputy asking to answer that specifically? We have four organisations and a lot of questions. We will not get to everyone.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Maybe the ICSH could respond to the questions on CAS. If someone wants to talk about those experiences – I do not know which organisations would be best suited.
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
On the issues around CAS, it is a scheme that was developed in 1983 and came into proper use in 1984. It has been around for a very long time and has been really successful in the sector. It is a scheme that offers up to 100% capital grant but the revenue stream is the main issue.
There are a couple of sides. Taking the capital, it is not without challenges. There are significant delays in the funding application process and the funding approval process. AHBs have to front-load a lot of costs before it gets to the point of drawing down capital funding so you need a little in the background. That will limit how much you can do. That is one side. Those processes are changing; a single-stage process is coming in and it will have different challenges but we do not have full sight of what that will look like yet. On the revenue side, and this is what you hear most about, if you are using CAS you are providing for particular target groups of people so there might be additional supports in that housing. There might be differences in design, layout and structure and that will all require standard and atypical management and maintenance approaches.
In the CAS scheme the revenue stream is an economic rent structure that is attached to the property so the tenant's income plus the management and maintenance costs calculates the economic rent. Doing that on a weekly basis there is also the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, rental support payment that attaches. Some people in CAS properties are on a single State payment maybe because of the nature of their disability, their age or whatever reason. They will get the CAS-RAS top-up. That is what we call it. However, RAS has not changed since 2007. The amount has not changed in over 20 years, despite management and maintenance costs obviously changing. What we have seen in the financial modelling we have done in the ICSH is that over the 30-year life cycle of a unit, it is running a deficit of €300,000. That is calculated on the CALF model, where we have taken that model and moved it into CAS. That is what some of the data is showing us. It simply does not make financial sense for AHBs to use that model anymore. It is too much of a risk for boards to carry and it is too challenging. We have presented that data to the Department, which has issued us with a request for further information and investigation on those costs, because some of costs the Department has do not support the information we are giving. We will explore that more with it. That is the main issue with CAS. It is really the rental and the revenue model. If you think about the groups you are targeting through the CAS scheme, you really want well-maintained, well-managed and comfortable homes for all tenants, but particularly for target groups with specific and specialist needs.
Ms Martina Smith:
It is important to follow on from that point. At HAIL we strongly advocate for equal access to the CALF model, which is a more financially viable model for us. When you are integrating people into the community we need to provide general needs housing for people with mental health difficulties. That is a really important model for us, and we sometimes feel the disability sector gets left behind in terms of access to that model. With regard to the demand for our services at the moment, there are 1,600 people with mental health difficulties nationwide who require housing. Ms Cruickshank will talk about the services we provide at the front line.
Ms Julie Cruickshank:
We have a track record of supporting people who are a certain way down their recovery pathway. We do not provide wraparound support, but we provide independent living support. If we can get the throughput to the actual tenancy we can move people who are in hospital or other institutions long term into a position where, with a certain level of support they can go on to live independently and successfully within a community setting. On homelessness it is about looking at prevention. There is probably a cohort of people who do not require intensive wraparound care, but because of maybe having had a long-term mental health challenge for years, or through lack of support, they still require a certain structure of support around them. Without that they become vulnerable. They can become unwell again and go back into the State hospital system or State care. In some cases, they could end up back in homeless accommodation. Our model is very much about keeping those people on their recovery pathway within a secure tenancy. On that we also provide prison in-reach service. We have a cohort of people who move through the remand prison with a long-term, enduring mental health illness and who often end up back on streets again on release from prison. We are trying to circumvent that all the time and put them on a pathway where they can move to more stable accommodation and then re-engage with services. As Ms Smith has said, we can do that cost effectively but we need an adequate throughput of accommodation and the support services around that.
Ms Jean Coleman:
I will refer briefly to Deputy Hearne's point about HAP and what we have seen in our own organisation. Even since Christmas, a number of people have contacted us who were receiving HAP allowance and have notices to leave. One example is a young lady of 42. Her notice to quit is in February. She has additional complex needs. The local authority has been helpful with regard to homeless accommodation. There are added issues in terms of wheelchair accessibility. This particular person needs a fridge for her medications that only she can access. That is just one example. We have seen a number of people who have notices to quit. February is one, March is another and another is July. It brings us back to our main point. There are no wheelchair liveable homes out there, either in the private or social market, so some wheelchair users are going into homeless shelters.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise for being late as I have been at other committees. I thank the witnesses for being here. I turn first to the Irish Council for Social Housing. I am delighted to say I am involved in an approved housing body, and I am delighted to say we won an Irish Council for Social Housing award for Carraig Eden in Greystones, County Wicklow. It was a fantastic project. We had 34 units of housing for people from a cohort with addiction and mental health issues. I have seen the difference it can make when a council works with an AHB. It also demonstrated how AHBs can make a difference on the ground, especially in the area of disability. I spoke this afternoon with the Department about how in May of last year we were working for a person from the emergency housing list, who had disabilities. We did the deal through CAS in May, and it took until Christmas to get the keys. It took eight months to actually close. This person with disabilities was in emergency accommodation and every week was asking where we were on this. We were genuinely tagging him along because we genuinely thought it would be a week, two weeks or a month. It went on for eight months. That sort of stuff is unforgivable and frustrating. Especially as I mentioned the ICSH, I wonder if there is a stronger role for AHBs here to act as leaders and champions in the area of working with local authorities and targeting housing delivery for people with disabilities?
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
You gave me the award, did you, Lyndsey?
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
I gave you the award. It speaks to my previous response where I mentioned the housing delivery action plans. We have strong examples across the country in many local authorities where we work in strong partnership with them to deliver on that local and regional need. From our sector, we are absolutely leaders and drivers in it. What we now need is for the housing delivery action plans to really include us in that consultation process so we can be drivers in that space, rather than waiting for the housing delivery action plans to be published and then respond to them. I think we can play a much stronger role in that regard. That is a good opportunity for us as well. It is a different way of doing things, and we are well positioned to respond effectively and efficiently. As I said, we have 40 years' experience of delivering homes to a high level and we have been scaling up repeatedly over those 40 years. Obviously, many of our members were around before then but over those 40 years we have seen a significant scale up. Every need and demand that has been identified as requiring a response from the AHBs has been met. We have delivered between 40% and 50% of all social housing across the country in the past number of years. We are ready to do more. One of the opportunities I want to push home here is that the AHBs have the experience, expertise, willingness and the drive to do more. If anything, we want to see that role increase and scale up, not go in the other direction.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to ask another question. I was working as part of the AHB. We had planning for a number of acres. We had homeless accommodation, and it was all beautifully done. There was extra land, and we went in for planning for specialist housing for people with disabilities. We were refused because the local authority said that housing was zoned as homeless accommodation. Should local authorities be given clearer national guidance to identify and reserve suitable, well-located sites for such supported housing?
Ms Tina Donaghy:
We know there is specific accommodation, specific land zoned and Z15 lands that are ex-clerical lands, or whatever, and they are specifically for health or community. Lots of those areas are being used for housing for people, such as older people, in particular, which is our interest in Fold, and we do utilise that land. It is really valuable because we can work directly with developers who purchase this land and who meet the terms of the universal design guidelines. We can do business with them on delivery, not only on meeting the planning obligations, but also delivering at scale. I think there is an opportunity for zoning. It is quite difficult. Fold has quite diverse needs compared to what the Irish Wheelchair Association or the Housing Association for Integrated Living might want. We want volume and to deliver at scale because that brings us economies of scale. Lots of the other organisations may not want that concentration.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the biggest blockage for Fold to deliver at scale? Is it finance? Is it finding suitable units? Is it working with the capital assistance scheme or capital advance leasing facility model? Where is the blockage?
Ms Tina Donaghy:
I would not see that we have a tremendous blockage in capital funding. We really work well with the CALF and P and A models. We have approved borrower status with the Housing Finance Agency. We have a good relationship with the Department in terms of our application process and we have great experience. We are specialists at our own construction. The main key for us would be getting the joined-up thinking and the revenue funding to support those additional services from the HSE. If we looked at a different model for keeping people out of nursing care, providing extra care and a more sustainable housing model, that funding stream needs to work hand in hand with the capital funding and it needs to be on a multi-annual basis. We cannot work on an annual basis.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If there is no blockage, how come the Irish Council for Social Housing said that demand is rising? Just over 300 homes were delivered last year when the demand was over 1,000. It seem there is a blockage somewhere.
Ms Tina Donaghy:
We are a small organisation. We have got just shy of 900 units in management, but in terms of scale that is small. We can only do so much. There is lots of space for everyone to work at this. We work very closely with our partners in the local authorities across all four Dublin local authorities, as well as Louth and Meath but we can always do more. We work really well with the capital funding model but to provide that extra support to keep people living independently as long as possible and enable them to age in place, we need to support that. It is not just about bricks and mortar; it is about bringing in those additional services. For us, the blockage is supported funding through a revenue stream for our communal facilities and for our services.
Mr. Conor Lynott:
I reiterate that we can talk about scale and all that, but there is no point in getting housing if there is no PA service. Often times, when people with disabilities apply for housing, they are told they need a PA service to get housing before they even have the PA service in place. However, they need the housing to get the PA service because the HSE will not provide the PA service unless they have someplace to live to begin with.
To pick up on the point about joined-up thinking, that needs to happen simultaneously, hand in hand, where both are working together.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is something that we, as a committee, can highlight and write to the Department about because that does not make sense.
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
It is so important because the Department of housing often carries the whole burden on this and it is not the Department's whole burden to carry. There are so many stakeholders involved. The housing piece is one side of it. The capital construction and maintenance of a building unit is one side of it, but there is all of the rest that comes in. It does not all rest at the heel of the Department of housing, which-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It gets blamed for a lot of things. I am just conscious of time, and I want to let Deputy Ó Broin in. If I get a chance to come back, I will come back to this.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I also acknowledge the very significant work they all do. I thank Mr. Lynott for sharing his personal experience with us as well because it is really important that as a committee we hear that. Who knows? He might be that Minister at the Cabinet voting on those decisions at some point in the future.
I have two observations and then two specific questions. I was delighted that Ms Coleman used the phrase "move away from bespoke". It is a really good phrase. This committee should internalise it because the witnesses were outside when we were talking to officials from the Department, but, in fact, all of their responses were about bespoke and retrospective responses. Likewise, I liked the comment made about the word "special" because here we are having a meeting about special needs housing, and we are talking about the special needs of people with disabilities and people in supported housing and people who have other challenges. The entire language that is framing our conversation is part of the problem. We need to do some thinking about that.
I am glad that Ms Anderson mentioned the housing delivery action plans because it seems to me that if we get that bit right this time, lots and lots of stuff flows from that. We did press the Department on whether it will be sending back draft housing delivery action plans that do not have adequate consideration for the range of special needs housing types that we are talking about.
I wonder if we need to talk about getting rid of CAS completely and having a single scheme where the capital volume is determined by whether an organisation has any borrowing capacity. Instead of having CALF and a set amount of borrowing, for a smaller AHB or an AHB that does not have the capacity to borrow, it could just get a larger portion of the capital and an availability agreement. I did not detect an enthusiasm from the Department for a fundamental reform of that key inadequacy of CALF, which is the lack of a revenue payment. Given the fact that, for example, as Ms Donaghy referred to, there are CALF and CAS units. They have the same set of issues, so why do we have two funding models?
I am just offering that observation as a way of rethinking this because otherwise we will be locked in endless reviews. We have one funding for public housing but the calibration of the capital versus the revenue is determined by the capacity of the organisation and the revenue requirement that is needed. I know that knocks the witnesses' organisations off course because they are lobbying damn hard for the CAS review outcome they want but that needs to be thought about.
I found the Department's responses around universal plus design and liveability kind of disappointing. The witnesses were outside, but it might be worthwhile listening back to that. I do not get the sense that there is an acceptance of its importance and the urgency of that review. The Chair rightly picked up on supported housing. It is the same for people in Housing First. It is the same for folks with intellectual disabilities. It is the same for people with mental health challenges. There is a lack of joined-up provision between those service provisions that are HSE-funded and those that are funded by Department of housing. If our committee can make one call out of this meeting, it is for far greater co-ordination at macro and localised levels for those things. While we spoke about personal assistants, and Mr. Lynott is right; if I am talking to people who are recovering addicts and who are trying to get into Housing First, it is the lack of the support piece.
I have two specific questions. One is around mixed-tenure developments. The organisations, which are typically smaller AHBs, have challenges inserting themselves and being invited to participate in larger schemes where they could provide the portion of what we currently call special needs housing. I understand that there are significant challenges. I invite the representatives from the AHBs to talk about that because we have not spoken about it.
For the representatives from organisations that are still CAS-dependent and the bureaucratic nightmare that is the four-stage process, do they have much sight over the new one-stage process?
Is that going to apply to CAS? Will that improve some of those things? I am only asking those things because the witnesses have addressed a lot of the other issues and I support their comments. I am interested in those two bits. It seems to me that not only should we be moving away from bespoke but we should be moving away from single projects like a Fold project in one place on its own, or a HAIL project elsewhere. If the LDA is doing 900 homes somewhere, a portion of those should be HAIL homes or Fold homes. That is how we get the scale, not by asking the HAIL or Fold to quadruple their output. It is by getting them into those wider general need schemes to do the portion of the supported housing, special needs housing and specially adapted housing that is required. If we unlocked that the output could be bigger.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Unusually, a vote has been called in the Dáil. We have about four minutes because the bells should be six minutes and four minutes. We have to suspend for that when we go for the vote, but we have about three minutes for answers.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When I say mixed tenure I do not mean private and public, I mean within the public, just so we are clear.
Ms Martina Smith:
Yes, absolutely. We have got some really good examples of where that works out where we would work with larger approved housing bodies, AHBs, and provide the support element. We also want to look at providing that mixed tenure ourselves in terms of growing the organisation and the viability of the organisation.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My question is about something that is slightly different. I am talking about HAIL, for example, in a larger general-needs development owning and providing the support in the units in that scheme. Is that happening?
Ms Denise Cronin:
I thank the Deputy for the question. It is something we would definitely be interested in. Our challenge is always access to the funding, so that means the payment and availability. For any AHB, having access to that and the willingness to give it up to another AHB is often the challenge. It is something we should be looking at in the sector, but it is about making sure we get access because the financial resilience of our organisation is really important to us and is something we need to focus on. The Deputy spoke about the access to CAS and CALF. We would very much agree that there should be one funding scheme. There should not be separate ones. It is about equality of access. At the moment there are huge challenges with CAS and the viability. It is a funding stream which currently we are not taking on because of the risks around it. As for working with other large AHBs, our challenges always are about access to sites and access to appropriate locations. We want people to be able to live independently in communities. Often, that is easier done within a bigger development and it is something we would be interested in but we need to be able to assert our independence around it and our access to the payment and availability because ultimately, that is what will deliver financial viability for the sector and for smaller organisations like ours.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have one minute.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can we suspend and come back? I think this is important and it would be a shame to lose it.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will suspend.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have one very simple question. In anybody's view, what is the resistance from the Department to a P and A for CAS? Is it simply the cost? I cannot see any other reason. If an organisation can get CALF on a P and A, what is the resistance to it?
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
My understanding is that the resistance relates to the capital side. With CAS, it is possible to get up to 100% capital. If you get 100% capital plus a P and A, it is a hard conversation to win with the Department of public expenditure. I do not know if it is an entire "No". I do not know if it has been proposed. That is the sense I have gotten. With the CALF and P and A, an organisation is only getting 30% of the capital. The rest is made up through private finance.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Organisations have to borrow the rest of that, and the cost of that borrowing is borne by the P and A.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is my point. The argument about having a CALF where a body can have a larger CAS portion is precisely for that reason. It would not cost the State any more because the P and A payments would be lower, since the body would not be doing the debt repayment portion of the CALF, just the maintenance. It seems odd. They do not want to pay for it, but that is a separate issue.
Ms Lyndsey Anderson:
The Deputy mentioned changing CAS. It is not that we would be opposed to changing CAS but what we have had in the past number of years is a very volatile policy environment. That has really damaged the reputation and affected the level of output the sector can achieve. It is not that we would be against changing it; it would be that we would be against changing it and pausing delivery or pausing the current pipeline. If something happens and changes occur, we can at least continue in the same way. In terms of our proposal to change CAS RAS and increase the RAS levels, we are aware that it is just plastering over the crack. It is not a major solution but it is part of the puzzle that will make the situation better while we still are in this system.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just for clarity, on the RAS calculation, is it 80% of the market rent at the time the CAS RAS agreement is put in place, or is it just a top-up to the differential rent? What is the calculation? RAS strictly speaking is a private sector rental subsidy. How do they calculate the RAS in a CAS RAS?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not based on any calculation of the full cost recovery, for example.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The RAS top-up.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is really just a top-up to meet the differential rent.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is even worse than I thought.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just so we are clear, because this helps the committee, what the RAS top-up does is enable a very low-income tenant just to meet their differential rent contribution. It is nothing above and beyond what would be the differential rent contribution. If I am in one of those properties and I can pay the full differential rent, there is no RAS top-up. Is that correct?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes please, that would be very interesting.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Cathaoirleach is very good to let me in. I am really sorry I missed Mr. Lynott. I hope everybody heard the battle he took on to get his 119 PA hours, and that he cannot access independent or supported independent living without those PA hours. That is the real story for anybody when it comes to the delivery of housing. We need to know there is a bank of PA support there to make it happen.
On a different note to what Deputy Ó Broin has been asking about CAS and RAS, I have read the opening statement from the Department. I do not mind referring to the man; it is not the first time I have referred to Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan. His opening statement was disappointing. He did not use the phrase "universal design" or refer to the fact that, while we have a strategy, there is no ring-fencing within it, whether it is 300,000 houses or 30,000. A minimum proportion must be held for people with additional needs. That is disappointing. Even if we built 30,000 and got 10% of that, it would be the opportunity to access through affordable, universal design. We need to ensure at all times that when local authorities are building, within every county development plan, there should be a portion of houses in respect of which the AHBs can go in and purchase or the local authority can work with an AHB to actually have that. We do not have that joined-up-thinking still. We are after launching a strategy but it has failed to acknowledge that we need the local authorities to work with AHBs to ensure there is ring-fencing.
The final piece is the PA. The HSE has to be at the table. The Irish Wheelchair Association is a really good example of having supported living. I saw it in one of their houses, where they were building the houses but they had the PA support that could live over and ensure continuity of care. There are really good ideas out there. We need to look at - not us, we know. The Department needs to recognise this and not to be giving us four pages of an opening statement when what we need is a portion held for people with additional needs. That is all I needed to say.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It was mentioned in the earlier meeting that the Department came in but the HSE did not accept our invitation. I know one of the groups mentioned working with the HSE, but in their letter they stated that they had no remit in housing and they were not coming in. That is not correct. We wrote back that we are inviting them in and we want to talk to them about housing. They do have a role in housing, linking in with a number of the organisation here.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just to pick up on the Cathaoirleach's suggestion, without giving even more work to our hard-working secretariat, at our next private session we might consider a short letter to the Minister outlining some of the shared views of the members here, picking up on some of the points raised. It would be a useful outcome. I know it is only a letter but it is important the Minister hears our views on these matters.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. I thank the witnesses for attending and offer apologies for the way the thing worked out. I will take up the proposal from Deputy Ó Broin and we will discuss it and put forward views that have been articulated by the witnesses directly to the Department. I propose that we suspend for 30 minutes and resume with our private session on pre-legislative scrutiny of the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2026. Is that agreed? Agreed.