Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Today we will consider the 2026 Revised Estimates for Vote 35 – Army Pensions and Vote 36 – Defence. I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for international development and diaspora, Deputy Neale Richmond. The Minister of State is accompanied today by the following officials in the Department of Defence: Ms. Aileen Nolan, assistant secretary, corporate affairs; Mr. Tom Hussey, principal officer, finance branch; and Mr. Jarlath Loftus, principal officer, finance branch.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the Minister of State to make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has seven minutes to ask questions and for the witness to respond. I would like to advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they formally confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Lastly, as the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish their opening statements on its website following the meeting. I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond to make his opening statement.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Today, I welcome the opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Defence and National Security on the 2026 Revised Estimates for the defence Vote group. I will provide members of the committee with an overall position, along with an update on some recent developments within the defence sector. At the outset, I believe it is important to recognise the broad and multifaceted environment in which the Department of Defence and our Defence Forces operate. In a world marked by growing geopolitical uncertainty and evolving security challenges, the defence sector is central not only to strengthening Ireland’s national resilience, but also to advancing peace and stability beyond our shores. Defence Forces personnel represent our country with pride and professionalism, often in demanding and high-risk environments around the world. They are highly respected for their dedication, commitment, and professionalism and today I want to acknowledge their service and thank them for their valuable work in service of our nation.

I now turn to the Revised Estimate for 2026. The total allocation provided for the defence Vote group for 2026 is over €1.49 billion and represents the highest allocation to date. It comprises of €1,174 million on the defence Vote and €317 million on the Army pensions Vote. This level of funding is vital to further progress on the commitment from the Commission on the Defence Forces to increase defence funding to €1.5 billion – in 2022 prices – by 2028.

Following on from last year’s NDP review, which allocated €1.7 billion in capital funding to defence, the defence NDP sectoral plan, launched in December, now highlights record levels of multi-annual defence capital investment rising from €300 million in 2026 to €360 million in the 2029–2030 period. The level of capital funding now provided in 2026 will ensure that significant progress can be made on key defence equipment projects including, inter alia, the priority military radar programme. The military radar programme includes three elements, namely, land-based long range primary radar; ground-based air defence systems, to include a counter-unmanned aerial systems capability; and maritime, ship-borne, radar.

With Ireland assuming the rotating Presidency of the Council of the European Union from July 2026, there was an urgent added operational requirement to progress the delivery of certain counter-unmanned aerial system capabilities that would otherwise be delivered as part of the ongoing military radar programme. Following Oireachtas approval of a Supplementary Estimate for the accelerated procurement of counter-UAS capabilities for the Defence Forces, I am pleased to inform the committee that the required capabilities are being procured with planned delivery and training being carried out during the first half of this year.

Robust radar capabilities are essential to safeguarding our national security and maintaining awareness of activity in our air and maritime domains. This capital funding also provides for the advancement of other vitally important defence projects including subsea awareness, software defined radio and light utility helicopters along with a wide range of force protection equipment. It also facilitates further progress on a range of Defence Forces built infrastructure projects encompassing Army, Air Corps and Naval Service installations throughout the country. The year 2025 saw record capital investment in Defence Forces infrastructure. Members will have seen evidence of this expenditure on their regular visits to Defence Forces installations. The overall 2026 defence Vote, Vote 36 - pay allocation, has increased to €598 million and provides for the pay and allowances of Permanent Defence Force personnel, civilian employees and departmental civil servants. It also provides for paid training for members of the Reserve Defence Force.

The Government acknowledges ongoing staffing difficulties in the Defence Forces. In response, a range of key enabling measures to support and drive Defence Forces recruitment and retention have been introduced including increases to the maximum recruitment and retirement ages, respectively, the extension of private secondary healthcare to all personnel, the application of the provisions of the working time directive across the Defence Forces subject to certain exemptions and the extension of the Air Corps service commitment scheme to air traffic control personnel. These and other measures that have been introduced are starting to make a difference, as evidenced by a modest growth of personnel numbers in 2025. We are also seeing continuous growth in the number of applications the Defence Forces are receiving to join the organisation. A total of 15,781 were received to the end of November 2025 and I am informed that increased to over 16,000 by year-end 2025. That output that considerably exceeds the 13,348 applications received throughout the whole of 2024. I confirm that the 2026 Permanent Defence Force pay allocation of €485 million provides for a prevailing Permanent Defence Force strength of 8,100 to include the recruitment of an additional net 400 Permanent Defence Force personnel in 2026. The current expenditure non-pay allocation on the defence Vote has increased significantly, by €35 million, to €277 million. This expenditure goes towards essential, ongoing and rising Defence Forces standing and operational costs including utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training. The 2026 allocation will enable the Defence Forces to further enhance our national resilience capabilities and contribute to international peace and security. At home, the funding provision will facilitate a sustained military operational response to aid both the civil power and civil authorities as required, while internationally Ireland at the end of 2025 had contributed 452 personnel to eight different missions and a range of international organisations and national representations throughout the world. An allocation of over €11 million is provided to support Civil Defence and Reserve Defence Force requirements. On behalf of the Government, I thank members of the Reserve Defence Force and Civil Defence for their ongoing dedication, commitment and personal sacrifice.

The 2026 Army pensions - Vote 35 allocation of €317 million, which is demand-led and non-discretionary, will provide funding for up to 13,600 Army pensioners and certain dependants. Historically, Defence Forces pensioner numbers and expenditure had been increasing progressively year on year. This trend has slowed in recent years and is reflected in the reduced allocation for 2026. While this trend is forecast to continue in the short term, Defence Forces pensions expenditure is by its nature demand driven and difficult to predict. The allocation provided in 2026 will address both the cost of existing and new pensions as well as the benefit to pensions of increases awarded under the Public Service Agreement 2024-2026. The Department ended last year on a strong financial footing with provisional outturn figures of €1.039 billion, highlighting a spend of over 99.9% of the 2025 defence Vote allocation. This highlights effective levels of financial management and delivery within the Department. It also demonstrated an ability to translate all funding into tangible outcomes and services. As we look ahead into 2026, the Department is well placed to deliver on its priorities in the year ahead. I thank the Cathaoirleach and welcome the opportunity to engage with members of the committee today. I commend both the 2026 defence and Army pensions Estimates to the committee.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Before I go to members, I note we cannot talk about pensions without talking about pension abatement. It is the single biggest issue when we have veterans and indeed any Defence Forces personnel before the committee. Does the Department have a stance on that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Pension abatements do not just affect veterans of our Defence Forces but all former members of the Civil Service and public service. It is an issue that repeatedly comes into my constituency office from retired members of An Garda Síochána, retired veterans and indeed members in other Departments who, even though they have left their role, really want to return a duty to the State. To be quite frank and in some way anecdotal, when I first started working in this place in 2007, the vast majority of parliamentary ushers were retired members of the Defence Forces. We all know that is no longer the case. It presents significant challenges but ultimately, it is a decision made by the Department of public expenditure, a brief the Cathaoirleach covered in a former life. It is in its remit to revisit this. Abatements were brought in at a very different time to service very different reasons but it always needs to be under active consideration.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is important that the Department of Defence has a stance on it. I ask the Minister of State and his officials to give the committee something to that effect in terms of the stance of the Department of Defence. It would be useful in the work we are doing here.

There are special rules around procurement for the Department of Defence and, where necessary, things do not go out to the normal tender process. That is underpinned by EU directives. How can we ensure we are getting value for money when equipment is bought such that the Department of Defence is not paying more than another Department would that is not subject to the same rules?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach makes the point very clearly but it should be noted the principle of competitive tendering for all Government contracts is still used by the Department of Defence. Even though there are clear national security exemptions, the principles and rules still apply and are in force in their own manner. That is something that any Government Minister in any Department always bears in mind - the public purse. It is not our money to spend. It has to be spent in the mindset of getting value for the taxpayer. There are various very clear central rules on public procurement followed by the Department of Defence regardless.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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There seems to be a move towards sourcing equipment through the French. Why is that? How are those decisions made?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We use accelerated government-to-government procurement to meet the demand. In relation to the move to the French, that is for one particular very major procurement. Like any tender, you look at the overall best option in terms of cost, value and ability to actually secure the much-needed equipment or programme as soon as possible. It is simply which company within a country can provide the best service as quickly as possible. There are no hard and fast rules or direction to any countries barring of course overall EU rules in general that we put in place based on ICJ judgments that are parallel.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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All of that comes under the Comptroller and Auditor General in terms of procurement. It is important for the public to know that what this committee tries to achieve is as much transparency as possible in terms of our defence and national security and spending in that area. The Minister of State noted in his opening statement the substantial increases in that regard. People want to know we are getting what is absolutely necessary to defend our island and that we get value for money at the same time. I wanted to set that out at the beginning. I will now go to members, starting with Deputy Stanley.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State and the officials. Can the names of the officials be displayed? We are familiar with some of the faces; it is just the names can trip us up sometimes. Pensions have a substantial allocation. I will keep the question short.

I ask the Minister of State to keep the answer short, given the limited time we have.

On pensions, the €317 million allocation is demand led and discretionary. Of course it is, but the Minister of State said it is demand driven and difficult to predict. I would have thought that the officials in the Department would know how many members of the Defence Forces there are and their ages and with a computerised system, that figure would be easy enough to predict. Why is it difficult to predict?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There is no one straight answer. There are a few things in respect of this. First and foremost, the level of retirements from the Defence Forces has reduced. While the trend up to several years ago was for an increased level of retirement, that has stemmed off. To be frank, people are living longer, so the number of people receiving a pension will probably be very different in two weeks. When we talk about those numbers, three or four people no longer receiving pensions can have a serious impact on those numbers. It is crucial to say the projected numbers are generally in line and the underspend is within the margin of error, for want of a better term.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Will the Minister of State remind the committee of the increased age limits for recruitment and retirement?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The upper end of retirement has now been moved out to the age of 62.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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What is it for recruitment entry?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The upper age limit for recruitment, similar to An Garda Síochána, has been lifted to 39 years.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I will move to the purchase of equipment. As a neutral country, I would argue that we need to have a level of capability. It is clear we did not have that and I welcome that we are moving to achieve it, as a neutral State. On equipment and training, the Minister of State indicated that in the first half of this year, before the EU Presidency starts, we will have the training and capability required to use the seaborne and land-based radar equipment that is necessary.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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People can be sure of that, which is important. One question in the public mind relates to the drone situation over Dublin Bay several weeks ago. If something like that was a threat, in terms of a military strike or something like that, would we have the capability to take down an object like that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am going to parse my question deliberately because we are talking about a very sensitive area of national security and an operational decision that we would take-----

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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It is a very important area.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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To put it bluntly, that capability will be there. As we stated, new equipment and training is being put in place to make sure we have that capability at the start of our rotating Presidency on 1 July, specifically referring to drone technology. As we know, there is considerable public discussion of this. It is not for the Minister or the Government to make recommendations. That is a matter for the Defence Forces, in consultation with An Garda Síochána.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Of course.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is crucial to make that point, if the Deputy does not mind. The capabilities are there.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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The Department and Minister responsible need to be able to answer that question. It is all fine and dandy having up-to-date radar equipment and the ability to monitor and track what is there, but there has to be a capability to actually stop harm from being inflicted. I am not arguing we should go out with all guns blazing but it is important the State has the ability to intercept and, if necessary, take down objects that may be about to cause harm within the State or to the population or members of the Defence Forces.

As regards the defence spend for the EU Presidency, is there a projection for the extra cost of that? We accept that, one way or the other, the equipment had to be bought. Even without the EU Presidency, we have to accept that needed to happen. What are the additional costs for the EU Presidency likely to be? I know the Minister of State will not have an exact figure but, roughly speaking, what will they be?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I do have an exact figure as it relates to the Department of Defence. It is important to note that most of the security provisions for the EU Presidency are driven by the Department of justice, through An Garda Síochána. An additional budget of €900,000 has been added to the subhead to take into account the expenses to be incurred in the Irish Presidency of the EU for both home and Brussels-based events in 2026 for the Department of Defence, whose Estimates I am presenting here.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Something short of €1 million-----

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is €900,000.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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-----will be provided for the extra duties and deployments required.

My last question relates to Civil Defence. I acknowledge the Department of Defence and Defence Forces had a problem with outdated equipment. I can only talk about my own neck of the woods where the equipment for the Civil Defence has improved dramatically. That needed to happen in respect of vehicles, search equipment and technology.

In respect of the Civil Defence and the Dormant Accounts Fund, the Department's provisional outturn for 2024 comes in approximately €400,000 higher than anticipated. What is the overall defence spend on the Civil Defence and, separately, the Reserve Defence Force?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The overall cost of spending on Civil Defence, as I said in my opening remarks, including the Defence Forces, is €4.5 million. That is a significant proportion of the Dormant Accounts Fund.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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What about the Reserve?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is the combined number.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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The combined figure is €4.5 million.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I, too, want to raise pension abatement. It is a very important issue, and one I would like to see some movement on. It is something the committee will continue to raise.

I thank the Minister of State for being here today. I acknowledge the increased investment in our Defence Forces and the desire in the Department of Defence to increase our capability. I attended a conference in Brussels before Christmas on the future of European defence and national security. For certain, the vibe there was about Ireland. There is never any discussion or difficulty around our neutral stance but, certainly, I get the vibe that the rest of Europe would like to see Ireland increase its capability. There is a recognition that we are moving in that direction, which is a good thing. I commend the Department of Defence on that initiative.

The Minister of State indicated that more than 16,000 people applied to join the Defence Forces, which is wonderful to see. It is a sign the recruitment campaigns are being well run, well received and noticed. How many of those 16,000 applicants could we comfortably accommodate? I know funding has been allocated to recruit 400 people next year but that is a very small fraction of 16,000. Is 400 the maximum number of recruits we can take in?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the Deputy's contribution on pension abatements and thank her for her work on this in parallel. It is great to have that lived experience but also that connection with so many men and women who have left our Defence Forces but are desperate to still serve our nation, and this is a block for them.

On the discussions in the rest of Europe, I face this issue on a daily basis as Minister of State. When I sit at European Council meetings or in meetings of my European political family, the European People's Party, there is a real focus. Some EU member states are now spending 8% of their GDP on defence and security. That is not necessarily by choice, but because they are forced to do so in the changing and volatile world we are living in. That puts a responsibility on countries like Ireland. Our geographic position cannot exempt us from the need to play a constructive part in our own defence and security.

That is going to be something of a continuing theme, not just during our Presidency but also throughout the rest of this European Commission mandate. It is something all parties in the Dáil need to reflect on. If we want to be ambitious, we have to provide the resources for the Department of Defence to be ambitious. That is raised regularly by members at meetings of this committee and in the Dáil. Greater consensus is needed in our Oireachtas to make sure we do right by not just the people of Europe but also, crucially, by the constituents we represent.

On applications, there is a much more high-visibility recruitment campaign. The number leaving the Defence Forces has started to decline and there have been net increases over the past two years. This was not the case in, say, 2022, when the trend was quite stark. Nearly half the people joining were just meeting the demand owing to departures. At any one time, we could probably accommodate training for 850 applicants.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is significant.

Keeping with the theme of recruitment, let me refer to cadet pay, which I often bring up. When will there be an increase in cadet pay to bring it into line with the pay of the rest of the trainees in the Defence Forces? There should be an increase. We are now facing a situation where a young man or woman who might like to become a cadet will become an enlisted recruit first. If they serve six months in that capacity, they will be starting their cadetship on about €45,000. A cadet who has served for six months as an enlisted recruit will be on €45,000 while a cadet who has not will be on only €22,000 or €23,000. That may be a significant amount for a school-leaver but the joining age for the Defence Forces has increased. Conceivably, somebody who is 38 may join the cadets and be on €21,000. That amount is not attractive for somebody of that age. It would be a good asset for the Defence Forces to have people with life experience joining as mature cadets. What are the Minister of State’s thoughts on that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is acknowledged that someone choosing a career in the Defence Forces later in life will have greater expenses than, say, a school-leaver. They may have a family, mortgage and accrued expenses. We heard about this not only when discussing the Defence Forces but also when discussing An Garda Síochána. Pay for recruits in Templemore was increased to reflect that the recruitment age was raised to 50, leading to more recruits.

Cadet pay was first raised in October 2024. At that time, military management submitted a business case to the Department of Defence for a review of cadet pay. The Department is continuing to explore this with the Department of public expenditure. If there is an overall increase in expenditure, it has to be sanctioned by the Department of public expenditure. The Department of Defence understands and agrees with the business case and that is why it has put the matter to the Department of public expenditure. In parallel, the Department of Defence has undertaken work in recent months to explore whether there are other ways to increase pay through existing resources without seeking an increased budget from the Department of public expenditure. We are very positively disposed towards addressing this matter, and we will continue to work with the Department of public expenditure to try to achieve it.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If we can accommodate 850 enlistments, why are we budgeting for only 400 next year?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is 850 over the course of a year. People are recruited at different times. Budgeting is not for the total amount because there may be lapses based on training amounts. Four hundred is a net figure, bearing in mind the number who leave or retire from the forces.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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So, there is enough-----

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The number of recruits who can be trained over the course of the year is 850, while 400 is the net figure, as it stands.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That is helpful. I thank the Minister of State. It is therefore not about a lack of ambition. We have the ambition to bring in 850, and the funds to do so.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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And the ambition to grow that into the future.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Fantastic. I thank the Minister of State.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of questions. I agree absolutely that there is a need for ambition for the Defence Forces and for considerable investment in a number of contexts. Probably one of the most pressing areas for investment, particularly in the context of the EU Presidency starting on 1 July, relates to counter-unmanned aerial systems or drone defence systems. According to the Department of Defence’s implementation plan, the system was supposed to be delivered in the third quarter of last year. The Minister of State has said it will be in place within the first half of this year. Given that 1 July is more than a hard cut-off, or that it is after a hard cut-off, when exactly can we expect the system to be ready to use, including in respect of training for relevant personnel?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his statement agreeing to the need for ambition for our Defence Forces. It is needed for a range of reasons. He and I might not necessarily agree on the range of reasons but we would agree on the core principle that we need to make sure the men and women of our Defence Forces are properly remunerated and serve in conditions that will allow them to serve to the best of their ability.

I am not in a position to give a hard date on full implementation, as that depends on training and operational readiness. However, the Department has confidence that implementation will have occurred, in full, weeks in advance of 1 July.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Has the system been acquired at this point?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The acquisition process has started but, before the system is put in place, the training must be completed. That has already commenced.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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According to the implementation plan, the acquisition phase lasts for a certain period, but even after that the contract delivery phase is four months. That would suggest acquisition by the end of this month or, at the latest, by the middle of next month.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We are absolutely on track to meet the target in advance of the Presidency.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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We cannot cut to the wire. It is vital that the system be not only acquired but also in place and ready to use. The Minister of State is saying that will be the case, but it is not ideal that he cannot give us a date or say that by the end of April, for example, it will all be lined up.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It would not be responsible for me, as a Minister of State, to give an exact date for an operational matter.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not operational.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I will finish my point because this is really important. I am not trying to be evasive in any regard. The point is that the system will be in place long in advance of Ireland’s assumption of the rotating Presidency of the Council of the EU on 1 July.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State said "long in advance". I do not see how telling me how long in advance is an operational matter. Saying we have a piece of equipment and are ready to use it is not saying where we are going to use it, when we are going to do so, who is going to use it and the circumstances in which it will be used.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There is not just one piece of equipment.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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A vast system of structures must go in place, and that is why it is ultimately down to the Defence Forces, through the Department of Defence, to say it is well on course towards being operational. That is its purview.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would rather have more detail but what we have is clearly as much as we are going to get.

The Estimates refer to a refit of the 80 Mowag Piranha vehicles. The Defence Forces first started acquiring these in about 1999, 27 years ago. Does the Department propose to continue to acquire this type of armoured personnel carrier? If not, is a successor being considered for the fleet?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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That is under constant review. The project currently involves identifying the requirements of the future armoured fleet as part of the capability development planning process. The aim is to determine whether there is a better option that could be procured. The Department is working with the Defence Forces to ensure what is procured will be fit for purpose.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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On personnel, does the Minister of State believe the Permanent Defence Force will reach establishment levels this year? If not, by how much will it fall short?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We will be slightly below establishment levels this year, but at least the numbers are moving in the right direction. Regarding the net numbers, we are recruiting considerably more people than are retiring, and the levels of retention have started to stabilise after a couple of very difficult years.

As of 31 December 2025, we had a full strength of 7,756. We will be in line to go past 8,000 this year, which will still be moderately below the establishment figure but moving in a better direction.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The establishment figure is 8,500. Is that right?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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When will we reach the 11,000 projected under the Commission on the Defence Forces level of ambition 2?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Under level of ambition 2, the plan or the aspiration is to reach those numbers by 2028, but to reach that level we would need to see significant increases in recruitment. As I said, quite clearly, the numbers are at least going in the right direction and we are working towards reaching that establishment target as best possible. The first course of action was to address the decline. That has been addressed and the number has been turned around over the last two years. We will continue with the ambition. As I said, over 16,000 people applied to join the Defence Forces last year, and that is a significant number. Unlike other countries that are talking about conscription and much else, we do not have a lack of interest. It is just about making sure we can meet that interest.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It does not look as if we will be reaching the 11,000 target by the date in the report in any event. In the last few seconds I have, one of the most salient areas for the Defence Forces, given we are an island nation, is our naval capacity. The implementation plan talks about having at least nine seaworthy, capable and well-staffed ships as part of our fleet by the end of the decade. Are we on course with that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I think we are getting close to that. Over the last calendar year, four vessels were at sea throughout that time. That is close to 600 days at sea across those vessels, which is a vast improvement on the year before and the one before that. We would certainly have the aspiration to get back towards the sort of patrol days we saw in 2021 in the next few years.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, I welcome that, but it is a slightly different question. I am asking about the number of physical ships. The target is nine by the end of the decade. Are we on course to reach that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We have a fleet of eight vessels now. In the context of acquiring an additional vessel and maintaining those eight existing vessels in the next four years, there is definitely every probability that we will reach it.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify that, all eight of the current vessels will still be seaworthy and in a position to continue in service by that stage as well? We are not replacing any of those?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Two vessels are currently in operational reserve because they are receiving mid-life extension programmes. Once that is completed, I see no reason why those eight vessels will not still be in place in the next number of years. A plan is currently being developed to be submitted to the Minister to explore what the next stages are, exactly as the Deputy laid out.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the Minister of State.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I think that question about the readiness for July is very important. I completely understand there are questions that cannot be answered here, but the main question that does need to be answered is why it took until December to have the funding allocated for the Supplementary Estimate budget. Perhaps the Minister of State would just answer that question. Where was the delay and the hold-up? We knew July was going to be happening, and we have known it for years.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We have known it for a year, but it must be noted in a context where the overall procurement of resources in the geopolitical environment is happening in an extremely tight market. Procurement is not as straightforward as in ordinary times because so many different jurisdictions are looking for the same equipment. It was, therefore, probably a longer procurement process than many would have liked. Now that has been resolved, the process is now into the straightforward acquisition, training and implementation phase.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. I am just referring to the allocation. Maybe the allocation of the funding could be explained in the first instance. Why did it take until December?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It was to make sure the full and final procurement process was completed and there was an accurate figure that needed to be allocated. As I said, we are in a competitive market, in terms of demand but also prices.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is saying it could not have been done before then. It was not a case that the funding was being held by the Department of public expenditure or any other Department.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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No. It was part of a wider military radar programme, and then it was accelerated at the end, so there were no delays in that regard. As I said, it is a complicated procurement process that is subject to very real and ever-changing market demands.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am doing this in order to be as transparent as possible. What the Minister of State is saying is that it could not have been accelerated at an earlier stage.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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No. It was accelerated at exactly the right moment it could be done and as soon as it could be done.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I think I still find that hard to understand coming up to December, where such a tight space is then being operated in. I call Deputy Eamon Scanlon.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his presentation this morning. Many of my questions were answered because I was really interested in the number of people applying to join the Defence Forces. It is great to see that nearly 16,000 people applied in 2025, compared with 13,000 in 2024. There were several years when there was not much interest in the Defence Forces and people were not applying for those jobs. I see that the strength of the Defence Forces for 2026 will increase to 8,100, including the 400 personnel who will be joining the Defence Forces in 2026. I think that is way down on what the number used to be, however. There is a mention of the number of 11,000 and that is important. It is going to take a little bit of time to get there, but I just want to recognise the interest that is there. It is great to see such interest and the number of people applying to join the Defence Forces. It is very important and anything that can be done to encourage it should be done.

On another note, I acknowledge the great work done by the Civil Defence. Quite honestly, it is sometimes taken for granted. I just recognise that because I am aware of the work it does.

My questions were really just on the numbers and the Minister of State has answered most of them. The only remaining one is on when or how we will get to the 11,000 number.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I will start off by wholeheartedly agreeing with Deputy Scanlon on his tribute to the Civil Defence. Particularly in his part of the world during Storm Éowyn, its members were literally lifesavers in so many regards for so many people isolated across the north west, in particular, and more widely in the country. Members and volunteers of the Civil Defence are daily putting themselves at considerable risk for the common good. We would simply be lost without them as a State and a nation.

It is important to dive into the trends in the numbers overall in our Defence Forces over the last five years. To map out where we are going, we have to look at where we have come from. In 2020, there were 8,568 whole-time equivalents across the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service. In 2021, that decreased to 8,456. In 2022, that decreased to 7,966 and in 2023, that decreased to 7,550. This is where we start to see a margin of change. In 2024, there were 7,557. Again, there was an increase in 2025, which I have already gone through in my remarks, and the aspiration this year is to get to 8,100. The ultimate aim is to get to 11,500. As alluded to by Deputy Ó Laoghaire and others, the aspiration is to get to that number by 2028. That is going to be a big ask on current trends. As reported, and it is no great secret, we are off that at the moment. Certainly, however, the direction of travel is going the right way and, more importantly, the budgetary and aspirational motivation of the Government is committed.

One thing that is really so important to note is the disparity between recruitment and those leaving the Defence Forces. In 2022, in total, 435 people joined our Defence Forces, but that went up against 891 people leaving. Those numbers have now been reversed. In 2024, 708 people joined the Defence Forces and 674 left. The great imbalance of nearly double the number of people leaving as were joining has been addressed and reversed. We will kick on from here now to make sure we can get to the levels of force preparedness required.

Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. Does Deputy Brabazon wish to contribute?

Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I think a lot of the questions have been answered. I was watching it in my office.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Before I go to the second round of questions, the Minister of State referred to lands seeing a major projected increase in 2026. What land has been purchased?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

I will give the exact figures. A local acquisition programme set out a number of targeted strategic sites. That has already been approved by the Minister and has been progressed. As the Cathaoirleach referred to, that leads to an allocation of €1.5 million in capital funding for progression of this in 2026. The progress is ongoing. Some of the proposed acquisitions and locations are in the Glen of Imaal and some are in Kilbride. They are not necessarily finalised or certain but those are the sort of areas where the Defence Forces have lands and operational activities. Everyone is familiar with the training exercises in the Glen of Imaal. They are well publicised. They are so important. Everyone is aware of a range of ranges that the Defence Forces use. Those are the sort of lands that need to be expanded, upgraded and updated. I think everyone understands that. One thing that is so telling is whenever we see a large-scale deployment of our peacekeepers, and there is usually a package on our national broadcaster showing the training and the sacrifices, they go to places like the Glen of Imaal. I find it very moving and very encouraging that the level of training and preparation used on those lands is put to such good use in some of the most difficult environments around the world and it is about making sure the Defence Forces we have are as best prepared and can do that in the lands required.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Are there lands or properties that are owned by the Department of Defence that are not being used?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Defence always has a rolling level of lands that may not be in use at this time but perhaps will be needed in the next period of time. Sometimes, you have to give an area of land a bit of a break, for want of a better word. However, it is definitely the Department's view that all lands currently in its possession are completely needed and it is looking for a minor expansion.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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On the Office of the Veterans' Affairs, obviously that is something we welcome in this committee. Will the Minister of State give us an update on the activities from that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. The Office of the Veterans' Affairs was recommended in the commission for the future of our Defence Forces and I know the committee raised this in quite a bit of detail in the last meeting on Supplementary Estimates. The office was formally established on 10 November and it is currently developing a work programme to cover the next 12 months. Related to that but not directly, the Department, in turn, also has service-level agreements in outlining supports with both recognised veterans' organisations, which is really important to state. The Office of Veterans' Affairs will not replace their work. It will complement the work of ONE and the IUNVA, which we are all very familiar with. These organisations are really quite personal and impactful. The Department also requires additional funding through the Dormant Accounts Fund to assist both ONE and the IUNVA. That is the fullest of updates I can give at this stage.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will continue on. I call Deputy O'Callaghan.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have focused a bit on recruitment and now I wish to speak about retention. I think I have the figure correct in saying 674 people left in 2025. It is the corporate knowledge that is lost. Even though I am sure that 674 was across the forces - some recruits may have only stayed a short while - I wonder about the measures that could be implemented to help. I particularly mention the difference in the terms and conditions between the pre-2013 and post-2013 pensions and whether there is a case for a uniform pension provision. The career-averaging pension in our Defence Forces is a deterrent to people staying. In my experience, people will put up with a relatively average or low pay if they know they are getting that good pension at the end. I add to that the extension of that service commitment scheme to specialist areas in our Defence Forces. I am talking about our specialists in the Air Corps, the Naval Service and also technical personnel in the Army. Measures like those would go a long way to ensuring we hold on to that corporate knowledge. I do not know how the circle would be squared in terms of ensuring there is more opportunity for promotion and moving up through the ranks. That would be another thing that would help to ensure that we hold onto to that corporate knowledge. The Minister can imagine himself that if we have people joining and they have somebody who can guide and mentor them, there is a greater chance that those new members will be more inclined to stay. It has a knock-on effect. I ask about those two measures to begin with.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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There is a couple of things there. First, we have to look at the increased retirement age that has had a huge impact. People clearly want to stay in the Defence Forces longer, just as people clearly want to join, at perhaps at a later age, either the Defence Forces or other uniformed branches of the Government. I fundamentally agree. The retention of that corporate knowledge has never been more important, particularly in certain areas that are evolving such as cybersecurity, and every military around the world will always have the difficulty of competing with the wages and salaries of the private sector. We are not going to compete on an even scale but it is not necessarily just the salary that motivates. It is quite important to state that a newly commissioned officer will be on €45,000 per annum. A new recruit, after training, will be on €41,000 per annum. Those are not insignificant starting wages.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Correct but it does take more than two years for the officer to get to the €45,000, whereas it only takes six months for the recruit to get to the €45,000.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I refer that back to the Deputy's earlier question. I continue to refer that question to the Department of public expenditure. I do not necessarily have much opposition to the very clear thesis she makes in that regard. However, that is not a low salary. That is over the average industrial wage, therefore, it is not a bad starting salary after training and-----

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I would agree.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I put in that clear caveat.

In relation to looking at pensions more pertinently, this is obviously something that is subject to the public service pay agreement. Was there a scope for a local bargaining which is allowed for? Any changes to pension, be they abatements or the pension more generally, have to be reflected upon by the Department of public expenditure. A number of pieces of work were looked at over the past few years related to the commission on the future of defence but equally there is a commission on pensions founded under the last programme for Government. Neither of those recommended revisiting the pensions provisions, even though we see military management and RACO in particular both made submissions to the Pensions Commission. From a Department of Defence point of view, we obviously keep everything under active consideration but the decision will ultimately land with the Department of public expenditure.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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This next is not really a question; it is more of a statement of how I feel about it. Given the current geopolitical situation in which we find ourselves, and the global landscape, I do not think, as a Government, as a State, that we can invest too much in our Defence Forces. I know there is an argument about our neutrality. However, can any country or state truly be neutral if they do not have the capability to look after its own citizens fully? To concur with the Minister of State's point earlier, we need broad agreement across the Houses in relation to the need to increase defence spending. It is about our protection and our security in as much as it is about our defence. To repeat, I really welcome the increase in our Defence Forces. I think about our personnel, as the Minister of State has also mentioned, and about how valuable they are to the State. We should consider anything that can be done to ensure we hold onto that corporate knowledge, maybe even increasing the retirement age. There is a gap there because while Defence Forces personnel need to leave at 62, they cannot avail of the State pension, or even their own pension, until 65. They do not have the option like other public servants to work past 62. That could be addressed as well.

In my view we cannot overinvest in our Defence Forces.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I could not agree with the Deputy more. Countless opinion polls around the State show that public opinion supports more investment in security and defence. There is broad agreement here at this committee. There are different political shades, and it is okay to disagree, but there is a general understanding and acceptance that we do need to invest in our State security and in the protection of our people. All of us could be a bit more ambitious and have the sort of detailed conversations about that need we are having at this committee more broadly publicly.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That all speaks to the neglect of our Defence Forces over the years - over the decades even – and that is what we are all trying to address but we must ensure at all times that we get value for money, that procurement insofar as is possible, is open and transparent and comparable with other Departments and agencies as well.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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On the table that was provided to us, there are some areas where the projected outturn is greater or higher. One area where the projected outturn is lower is on Naval Service equipment support. Is there any particular reason for that? The Defence Forces logistics and travel is considerably less than projected, at €6.5 million, but there is also an increased outturn in litigation. I imagine that potentially relates to some of the cases around Air Corps maintenance personnel and so on. Will the Minister of State comment on the reasons for the lower outturn, as well as the increased outturn in the litigation side?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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If it is okay, I ask the Deputy will give me a second on one of the points the Cathaoirleach made. The value for money aspect is sometimes lost in a lot of the discussion. One of the largest pieces of work I do as a Minister of State is in relation to our overseas development assistance. That is something on which I have engaged with Deputy Ó Laoghaire in very regular and benevolent tones. The ability to provide transparent accounts is key, as is making sure we can show projects are value for money and a real investment. I have visited eight Irish Aid programme countries so far to see that the money is being spent accurately and correctly. All the books are fully audited internally as well as being subject to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts, if needs be. That is the gold standard that every Department should adopt regardless of what the money is being spent on or the overall policy or political ambition is.

The Deputy has a number of detailed questions. I might send a written reply to get into the full genesis. As an overview, I will go through a little on the costs of maintaining the naval fleet. As the Deputy knows, this can vary year on year depending on prevailing maintenance schedules, operation requirements and available personnel. That cost was extremely significant in the 2024 to 2025 period largely due to an increased spend on external services and fleet maintenance requirements in the Naval Service. These external outsourced services encompassed contracts where civilian contractors support contracts on parts contracts.

The increase in litigation is tied to what is going through the courts. We all know the various cases in a range of different areas. Some of those are high profile going back to the 1990s and others are more recent.

Overall, it is a 29% increase in regard to naval support. I do not have the exact figure. As I said, at the Deputy’s discretion I will send him a written reply, if that is okay.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is important that provision is made for that in the coming year and not only for litigation. I have raised this with officials in the Department before. Aside from dealing with litigation – and people are entitled to take cases, of course, always – but it will be important for the Department to deal with the category in similar ways that the Department of education dealt with the category of people who were affected by that, whether that is in terms of an assessment of the potential adverse health outcomes of aircraft maintenance personnel and ensuring that their healthcare needs are met. This is a nettle that the Department has to grasp. I want to say that very clearly.

I have two further brief questions. The first is a tricky area in the area of defence - the world is not a simple place – which is procurement and ethical procurement. This is ensuring we procure items, as much as we can in defence contracts, from contractors and countries which are not engaged in human rights abuses and so on. From Dáil questions, I know the Department of Defence has a contract with the software and logistics company Oracle, which is a company that is very closely integrated with the Israel Defense Forces and has provided a lot of services and support for them. I would highlight that as one example but I am sure there are many other examples. It is a complicated area – I understand that – but to the greatest extent possible we need to ensure that we are involved in procurement that is ethical. Can I get a sense of how the Department approaches and proposes to approach that?

Finally, this may be a little abstract and relates to policy rather than financial matters but it has financial ramifications. The Minister for Health in particular is interested in the potential for Dún Laoghaire being used in terms of naval capacity into the future. There is potentially sense for that in ensuring naval capacity on our eastern seaboard. How far along is that proposition? It has been played around with for a couple of years in various debates.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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On procurement, as I alluded to more generally in response to the Cathaoirleach’s points, we have a very clear principle of competitive tendering for Government contracts. Central to those procedures are EU law requirements that have to be complied with. This is to ensure fair competition, transparency and equal treatment between suppliers through the advertising of the tender competition on eTenders and such tender competitions are open to any company or country subject to very clear terms of the UN, OSCE and EU arms embargoes or restrictions. Since the ICJ advisory opinion of 19 July 2024, which made it clear that all states must abstain from entering into economic or trade dealings with Israel concerning the occupied Palestinian territory that may entrench at some level its presence there, the Department of Defence has included provisions in its tender documentation regarding the right to reject offers from third countries, which includes Israel, on defence and security grounds in line with the Commission’s guidance on the procurement of defensive equipment under EU Directive 2009/18. When it comes to ethical procurement, there is also the ability to be able to separate different entities of companies. We have seen this not in relation to defence but in relation to the GAA and other companies recently. That is something that has to be looked at in the broadest sense. We always keep ethics to the forefront. In respect of-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would just offer an observation. I am not referring to any particular company but sometimes there is a legitimate, true distinction between companies and sometimes there are false distinctions between different entities because sometimes, that can be a fiction. That is a general observation.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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From a Government point of view, we always look at true distinctions.

On naval facilities in Dún Laoghaire, as the Deputy knows the headquarters of the Naval Service is Cork for very obvious reasons and that will continue. There have been services in Dún Laoghaire before. It was being raised by local TDs. The Department is looking at keeping berthage in Dún Laoghaire. I was on that local authority for seven years, albeit I am a mountain man, not a seafarer. It is a very real option that will be considered by the Department of Defence but the primary focus is the continuing improvements to the facilities in Cork.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am fine with that.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I know.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is sense to having a certain capacity on the eastern seaboard.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will now go to Deputy Brabazon.

Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his presentation and his answers to all the questions. Arising from Deputy Ó Laoghaire’s question on compensation payments, the figures show an upturn of 42% in relation to compensation payments. In light of judicial guidelines and caps on compensation, what dramatic event took place since the original Estimates to increase it by 42%?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I have to be quite sensitive - the Deputy is a lawyer so he can understand why – but there was a settlement of a particular case that led to the increase in relation to an Air Corps chemicals case. I am quite loath to go into any more detail on that.

Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I understand there are privacy issues. That explains that.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple more questions. One of them is on the national maritime strategy. When does the Minister of State expect that will be published? I say that in the context of the update on the national security strategy.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I expect the national maritime strategy to be published in the next couple of weeks. It is imminent.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is important. In terms of the national security strategy, it obviously is one of the most urgent priorities for it. Why has it repeatedly been delayed?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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To give a fair and accurate response, that matter is controlled by the Department of the Taoiseach, which has overarching control of national security, bringing in line Departments, be they defence, justice, foreign affairs or others, so I would have to refer to it for a more specific response. As I said, advanced consideration is under way.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It needs to be asked of the Department of the Taoiseach.

Earlier, the Minister of State rightly said we play a constructive and ambitious role but I also think there is an opportunity in the EU Presidency term to show that we are ambitious for peace, that we always have been, and that we are an island that has an international, legally binding peace agreement. That stands to us anywhere we go in the world. There is an opportunity, while we have the EU Presidency, to ensure that other member states can learn from how that peace process came about and what has happened since, and indeed look at our future plans for the peace process that has been embedded. Will the Minister of State speak to that with regard to peace and our peace strategy? I say that as an antidote to the drive for militarisation within the EU. I say that completely separately to our need to address the deficits and neglect of our Defence Forces.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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It is important to say that investing in one's national security can be separate to a drive for militarisation. Peace can be pursued by making sure that resources and people are secure. Peace is something that Ireland has a great opportunity to share with the world. In my other work in international development, I spent considerable time over the past year visiting some of the peace-building projects that Ireland is behind. A key, obvious one, which is topical, based on global events, is in Colombia, where the Irish Government runs an Irish Aid programme with signatories to Colombia's 2016 peace agreement, including former FARC guerillas. I visited a number of decommissioned FARC guerillas who have given up their guns and are living a peaceful life, supported by Irish Aid and the Irish people, using the example of what has worked here on our island. Our peace is not fully complete, which the Cathaoirleach knows as well as I do, but there are great learnings which we share, particularly in Colombia.

Another, which is tied to our pride as peacekeepers as well as peace-builders, is our over 50-year unbroken commitment to UN peacekeeping missions. One was the United Nations Mission in Liberia, UNMIL, after a really bloody and vicious civil conflict. We sent troops there consistently. Sadly, one was lost in an accident, Sergeant Derek Mooney, who should always be remembered. The legacy of that is that there is no longer a need for a UN peacekeeping force but we continue to have Liberia as an Irish Aid programme country, where we are working with former rebels and former military figures, both on reconciliation and peacekeeping.

It borders Sierra Leone, another Irish Aid programme country and victim of another bloody civil war, where there are former combatants - essentially a motorcycle gang - who have been transformed into now working as couriers and motorcycle taxis to service their local community. They are able to earn a living and work with people who they would perhaps have been fighting against. We have the real, tangible, lived experience of what happened on this island, and how we are putting this in place in former conflict areas. We look at the situation in the Middle East and Sudan and at what will come next in Ukraine. Ireland has a clear ambition that we want to play a part not only in providing existing humanitarian aid, which is reaching people where it needs to in those three areas, just for example, as well as many areas, but also, when the bombs and bullets stop, we want to be invested with our UN partners in real peace-building projects that have worked here.

To conclude, though perhaps this is going away from the brief of this committee, the Cathaoirleach and I have spoken about this on many shared platforms and are passionate about how we fulfil the peace on this island with regard to where the real return is. We have seen, so many years on from the Good Friday Agreement, that we have a real and fragile peace. Where, however, are the benefits of that peace from economic and societal points of view? It is much better than it was once upon a time, but we need to be ambitious for our island.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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We do, and as a committee, we need to look at what all-island defence would look like in the event of reunification. I think the Minister of State agrees that the Good Friday Agreement should form a key part of our EU Presidency period, both in the exchange of learning for other EU member states and also in focusing on what we need to do here, as he rightly says, in sharing the benefits of that peace.

I call Deputy Callaghan for the third time. She has her specialist experience from being in the Defence Forces.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We have spoken about military attachés in this committee. A blunt question would be to ask why we do not have them. Is it a budgeting concern?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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In our embassies around the world, we have a range of officials seconded in from other Departments to provide attaché advice. Some are Garda liaison officers, some are there on behalf of the Departments of Finance, enterprise or agriculture, and some are working with State agencies. We have a real military presence in the European Union where General Seán Clancy plays an advanced role. It is not necessarily a budgetary constraint but a policy requirement. Are they required? A proposal is going to the Minister this week to look at a pilot programme to see if this will work. It is not something that we are necessarily opposed to from a policy point of view or indeed a budgetary point of view but as we expand our interests, it might be useful. I have been fortunate enough to engage with a number of military attachés from other countries based in this jurisdiction. Those conversations, official and formal, can always be a good balance. Our military leadership engages with other military leaders on a daily basis for many different reasons. It is important that those lines of communication are clear.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. Not to disrespect the other personnel that the Minister of State mentioned, who are working for us in important roles overseas in different embassies and consulates, but a military attaché is a very particular role. Military people speak to military people in a military way. They will not be as open with non-military people. It is a particular type of network, particularly in the current global environment. If we have more people on the ground in those key areas, listening, hearing, speaking and networking, from a national security point of view it can only be a benefit. I am heartened to hear it is not a budgeting concern but a policy concern. I am also very heartened to hear that a proposal is going forward this week or next week about it. I strongly support it.

I did not get a response on the service commitment scheme for specialist personnel in the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service. Could we extend it past pilots and air traffic control?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for her discretion in this regard. I have been fortunate, over the last number of months, to attend a number of defence formulations of the EU Foreign Affairs Council and a range of UN meetings, including about our last peacekeeping commitment. We are always accompanied by members of the Defence Forces. Military people speak to other military people in a different way, yes. As somebody who has borne witness to that and struggled to get my head around some of the conversations - maybe it was a good thing that I did not - it is a real opportunity that we must always keep an open mind to.

On the service commitment schemes, we have those that were advanced under the local bargaining and they will be initiated or implemented during the period of the public service agreement.

I understand that both RACO and PDFORRA have engaged very constructively with the Department and military management and have worked well to agree on the best use of the funds available under local bargaining.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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My only issue with local bargaining is that it is not enough to create an effective service commitment scheme. It would not create enough of an incentive in the context of the retention of specialist personnel. I would like to see more of a focus on that and something akin to what we saw for pilots and what has been in existence for them for a long while. We need to see the same for air traffic control, ATC, so that we do not end up in the same position in relation to ATC when we ended up on the cusp of losing personnel and not being able to provide flight cover in Baldonnel. I would not like to see that repeated in the Naval Service and other parts of the Air Corps. If there is anything we can do to prevent that, we should do it.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely. This issue is coming up for an increasing number of roles, particularly as more specialisations appear in the Defence Forces in terms of the evolution of what a serving member does on a daily basis. Obviously, outside of this local bargaining mechanism, we have to make sure that there are no further cost increases for the Department of Defence. Anything that increases costs further must be done in consultation with the Department of public expenditure and in the context of the public service pay agreement. There are opportunities there and they are being realised as much as possible by the Department but there are other issues that are beyond our control. I am happy to work with the Deputy on this and to engage further to see how we can improve matters.

Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am glad I allowed the Deputy to raise those very important questions which had slipped my mind. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, and departmental officials for their time this morning. I also thank the officials of the committee's policy adviser for the briefing material which was circulated to the committee in advance of this meeting.