Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte ar ais roimh gach duine tar éis shos na Nollag. Athbhliain faoi mhaise daoibh go léir. Before we begin, I want to bring to everyone's attention that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on the issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to that effect. As is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and they may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by you outside of the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online at the committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in the public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed. All of the members today are present and nobody is online at the moment.

We will move on to our agenda, which relates to biosecurity. It is a hugely broad topic. We are seeing the bluetongue virus and bird flu, and there are so many other different issues going on at the moment, so the topic is hugely relevant. It is such a broad topic that we are probably only going to be able to take sections of it today. I welcome Dr. Eoin Ryan, deputy chief veterinary officer; Dr. Avril Hobson, senior superintending veterinary inspector and head of the National Disease Control Centre; and Mr. Barry Delany, director of forestry services, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The witnesses have circulated their opening statement. They will take five minutes to read through the statement. If they do not get to complete their opening statement here, statements are made available on the website of the committee afterwards. We will then move on to questions and answers. It is quite a comprehensive statement we have here today so perhaps ten minutes will be needed on it.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I thank the Chairman for this opportunity to address the committee on biosecurity. I am joined this afternoon by my colleagues Dr. Avril Hobson who is the senior superintending veterinary inspector with the Department and head of the National Disease Control Centre, and by Mr. Barry Delany, the director of forestry services.

Biosecurity is a critical element in protecting Ireland's agrifood sector and its public health from the many disease threats we face. Our animals, plants, fish and forests are crucial to Irish society, Irish employment and the wider Irish economy, yet they are at risk from a range of diseases. Effective biosecurity is a potent and essential tool to deliver protection and assurance. For that reason the Department has a strong focus on biosecurity, including sector-specific strategies. In recent years the threat to Ireland posed by exotic animal diseases has become higher than at any time in the modern era. Since 2020, highly pathogenic avian influenza, or bird flu, which was once a rarity now circulates in our wild bird population each winter brought in by migrating birds.

Recently, this resulted in five outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza in turkey flocks in Ireland in November 2025. Bluetongue virus, once confined to the Mediterranean basin, has spread in cattle and sheep across Europe and has now reached Northern Ireland. During 2025, foot and mouth disease outbreaks occurred in Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and northern Cyprus after absences of decades. African swine fever is devastating pig farms across Europe and Asia. The risk to Ireland's livestock sector from exotic diseases is now much higher.

It is in this context that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has taken a range of actions to strengthen our preparedness for an outbreak of such a disease, and to protect where possible Irish animals from these risks. The Department is committed to working in partnership with farmers and other stakeholders to improve biosecurity as a central part of these strategies, to keep diseases out and to prevent their onward spread should an outbreak occur.

The second National Farmed Animal Biosecurity Strategy 2025-2030 was launched in December 2025. The strategy will complement the Plant Health and Biosecurity Strategy 2026-2030, which will be launched in quarter 1 2026 and which will build on the success of the first Plant Health and Biosecurity Strategy 2020-2025 in the areas of risk anticipation, risk surveillance and management and risk awareness and communication.

These strategies align with biosecurity measures already in place in our aquaculture sector, as well as reinforcing other strategies and regulatory frameworks. These strategies acknowledge the importance of the Department working closely with the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, on an all-island approach to disease prevention and control of animal and plant pests and diseases.

Biosecurity is a critical element in tackling animal diseases such as BVD, bovine tuberculosis, salmonella in pigs and poultry, and Johne's disease, and in protecting the island of Ireland against exotic diseases such as highly pathogenic avian influenza and bluetongue virus.

As the Department's plant health and biosecurity strategy identifies, new pests continue to emerge in global trade in commodities, such as plants for planting, timber and wood packaging material, which may act as a pathway for the introduction of harmful organisms that can readily facilitate the long distance spread of pests and diseases.

Overall, Ireland's forests are in good health, with pests of economically important species of Sitka spruce largely absent from the island. Ireland does not have the range of forest pests and diseases that are endemic on the Continent and further afield.

Aggressive species of bark beetle can develop rapidly in large populations, again influenced by favourable climatic conditions allowing for the production of more generations of beetle per year than would be normal. The Department carries out annual comprehensive plant health surveys for a range of pests with a view to maintaining Ireland's high plant health status and to comply with Irish and EU legislation. Bark beetle surveillance is the major focus of the annual forest surveillance programme.

I hope that I have given members of the committee a good brief overview of the Department's approach to biosecurity and its importance to mitigating the many infectious disease threats to the agricultural sector. My colleagues and I will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Ryan. A number of members are offering. Briefly, because it is such a broad topic, there are one or two issues I wanted to focus on with Dr. Ryan.

To what extent does the Department use artificial intelligence, AI, to predict where different diseases will come into the country? For example, for bird flu, there are well established migration patterns and the Department will be able to look at weather maps, etc., to see and possibly even predict where things might flow or what might happen there. To what extent is AI used? Is the Department the front line on it or is there any of it spread across a number of other committees? For example, the hornet, when that was coming in, and we saw it in Cork, interferes with bees and pollination and plant fruit production, for example. Is all that being driven by the Department or is it being driven by another Department? Finally, because insects and virus, etc., will not know or be aware of any lines on a map, to what extent is the Department co-ordinating with its northern counterpart?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for those. I might answer the animal-related bits and then hand over to Mr. Delany for the forestry elements.

First, in relation to artificial intelligence and bird flu, we are using that. There is quite a useful European tool, which predicts bird flu risk. It is based in the European Food Safety Authority, EFSA. I can follow up with the committee secretariat on the exact website details. It is publicly accessible. Officials do exactly what the Cathaoirleach had suggested. They look at wild bird migrations, weather patterns and reports of the detection of avian influenza in wild birds. That goes on right across the EU, including in Ireland. We do surveillance for wild birds. That provides a risk prediction tool, which is very useful and which we use to understand when we are entering the higher-risk period. It is used, and we referenced that in some of our avian influenza guidance and that is publicly accessible and EU-based.

Separately, on the larger question of developing it, the Department funds quite a lot of research on the use of AI in animal disease surveillance. We have a number of projects on that. It is an exciting new frontier. We have a lot of data available and the question is how to use that in a more effective way to help guide risk-based controls. There are a considerable number of research projects in university research centres supported by the Department and we work with those groups to look at that. Another example might be using weather prediction tools for bluetongue where we work with Met Éireann, which provides us with maps showing where infected midges are likely to have blown on a certain given day, and that helps us then tailor our surveillance for that, in terms of midges blowing in from England or northern France. There is a lot of that. It is such a rapidly developing area. It is really exciting. We are very much plugged into those networks. There is a lot going on with it.

On co-ordination, we work closely with our northern Irish colleagues. We have a range of formal planned engagement sessions. We meet regularly and we have joint meetings, but we also engage regularly informally, for examples, meetings, phone calls and emails, because we align our approaches. That is useful. For instance, on Friday next, there is a joint research surveillance meeting in Belfast of our surveillance teams to do with a certain disease. That happens all the time. It is close and regular engagement on the research side, on the surveillance side and on the policy side. We have had a number of joint discussions on simulation exercises on how we would deal with outbreaks. We have fortnightly meetings of the teams that do the contingency planning. They would say, if this happens, here is our approach and what we would likely do. It is a really useful way to discuss because, of course, a lot of our outbreaks happen near the Border region. There are few parts of the island that are not in some way linked by animal movements in the Border region. It is a close and deep relationship, both formally and informally.

I might hand over to Mr. Delany to deal with some of those questions on his side and also on hornets.

Mr. Barry Delany:

I thank the Cathaoirleach, and bid a good afternoon to committee members.

It is quite similar. We have a pest risk analysis unit within the Department and we use the information throughout the world that is available to us, for instance, a lot of the model systems and the weather data. We use our veterinary colleagues' system, Centre for Veterinary Epidemiology and Risk Analysis, CVERA, which models on bluetongue but which we use in terms of bark beetle because it helps simulate the movement from continental Europe into the UK, and maybe further on into us, which is very useful. We tie in closely with the European plant protection organisation and EFSA, but they also deal with plant health matters as well. That helps to identify the issues and the rise in scanning.

In terms of the use of AI, I am not so clear as to what is used within those models. I expect it is, because that is where it is going. It is really useful in terms of that and there is research ongoing on that.

In terms of North-South, similarly, we have formal groupings under the North-South Ministerial Council on plant health. We are treated as a single epidemiological unit. We work extremely closely with our colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. We look at joint contingency planning and we do simulated exercises. We will have another simulated exercise this year, with our colleagues, on bark beetles. It is close then. We try to treat it as one and protect the island of Ireland from anything that might be coming in.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does it involve different Departments or is it all through the Department of agriculture?

Mr. Barry Delany:

I suppose everything is with us in plant and animal health but, as the Cathaoirleach will be aware, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, leads.

We have inspections at Dublin Port and elsewhere in terms of the frontier. If there is a finding within the territory of Ireland, for example, in respect of hornets, the NPWS takes the lead. However, we work closely and co-ordinate with it.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am curious as to why it is one group versus another, but I want to give members an opportunity to speak. Seven members are offering. We will do seven minutes each. I call Senator Daly.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I wish the Cathaoirleach, fellow Members and the staff of the secretariat a very happy new year. I look forward to working with everyone on this committee in the coming year. I welcome the officials from the Department. Likewise, I wish them a happy new year.

Will the officials explain the thought process behind the actions they are obliged to take, particularly in terms of avian influenza. The Department has to impose restrictions rapidly, but the decisions it makes can have serious economic and financial effects on people, flock owners and farmers. Nigel and Bernice Renaghan, two friends of mine, have been in contact with me. Their farm lies within the restriction zone relating to an infected flock. The farmer who owned the flock was compensated because the flock was culled or exterminated, whatever way you want to put it. The Reneghan farm is inside the 3 km zone, which meant they could not perform any actions. They were due to receive a batch of chicks for fattening, or whatever way it works in that business. As a result of the fact that they could not accept that batch due to their farm being in the restricted zone, their sheds lay idle. They had absolutely no source of income for the entire period and they were not compensated. While restrictions are necessary in order to avoid the transfer or spread of disease, do the officials not take account of the fact that their decisions can affect somebody's income, economic status or livelihood? What way does it work within the Department that it has the power to literally put somebody out of business, albeit with the best of intentions? Will the officials comment on that and outline how it works on the economic side and on the disease prevention and biosecurity side?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

As far as the thought process relating to decisions is concerned, we are bound by EU legislation. Of course, we are in the Common Market. In that context, the same animal health legislation applies to all EU member states. That is what enables us to buy and sell animals and animal products within the Common Market. EU animal health law sets out very clearly that following a category A disease - for instance, in this case, highly pathogenic avian influenza - we have to put in place stringent controls, including a 3-km protection zone and a 10-km surveillance zone, around the infected holding. That is based on a considerable amount of scientific and epidemiological analysis and many years of experience of what works. There is no degree of discretion in the context of deciding not to apply the rules we would expect other countries to apply if we are taking in their products or animals.

On the policy side, we certainly consider very seriously the impact on people. We regularly engage with stakeholders. In fact, we had stakeholder meetings on avian influenza. I do not want to say monthly - it might not have been quite as frequent as that - but certainly every six weeks or so for most of the past year and a half because we have been in a high-risk period. We held these meetings with poultry farm organisations, industry representative groups and ourselves in order to tease out the issues. We take it very seriously. We are acutely conscious of the impact of disease control actions on those who may not be the ones specifically affected by the disease in terms of having an infection on their farms but who are affected by the controls that are necessary. We are extremely aware of that. The impacts are discussed regularly. Rather than talk about farmers being put out of business, it is worth reflecting on the fact that we had five outbreaks of avian influenza, which is an extremely contagious disease, in Ireland in November, and we did not have a single secondary outbreak.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am with Dr. Ryan on that, and well done. Does he not feel that it should be mandatory that somebody whose source of income is affected by the rules put in place by the Department would automatically receive compensation for the losses involve? The Department has to bring herd owners and flock owners with it. Should it not be mandatory that once the Department limits somebody's trading ability, they would automatically get compensation?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Of the five outbreaks, not a single one led to a secondary outbreak. That was specifically due to the controls that were imposed. It is not just that; it is also that we were able to lift those surveillance and protection zones as soon as could have been done because things had been implemented strictly. That enabled farmers in those areas to restock and carry out their normal business in the absence of secondary outbreaks, which would have impacted them.

Under the legislation if the Minister directs that poultry, birds, animals or things such as eggs or feed material be destroyed due to a category A animal disease, such as avian influenza in this case, compensation is payable at market value. There is no provision in the legislation for payment of consequential losses by those in the situation the Senator described. Also, it may not just be avian influenza; it could be a different disease. Whatever the disease, people are affected by similar controls being put in place. It certainly is a significant issue. We are acutely aware of it because, like the Senator, we regularly engage and meet stakeholders on this, and not just those in the poultry sector. It is something that we are very conscious of.

The compensation provisions are set out in legislation for those where there is an infection in a flock or a herd and are based on circumstances where things are directed to be culled or destroyed. There are no legislative and administrative provisions for people in the situation outlined by the Senator. We are acutely conscious of the burden placed on those people. It is probably not a huge comfort for the individuals affected, but the fact that the zones were lifted as soon as could be and that there was no subsequent spread of disease, is really significant for the industry as a whole. I would not underplay that.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but during the short period of restriction, and I gave a factual example, a full batch or cycle was missed.

My time has passed very quickly. From the perspective of plants, what lessons have we learned from ash dieback that might help us to make sure that we do not get a second hit in the forestry sector as a result of the impact of the bark beetle?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

My colleague will respond.

Mr. Barry Delany:

Ash dieback is a fungal disease. In terms of the bark beetle, we are trying to learn from what is happening in continental Europe and, more importantly, the UK. From our point of view, prevention is the most important aspect. Unfortunately, this does not just happen through trade. Part of it is as a result of trade, with affected wood or wood material coming into the country. However, we have our frontier inspections at Dublin Port, Wexford and so on. In 2018, the bark beetle was found in Kent in England for the first time. It has now been eradicated. Research in the UK showed that the bark beetle flew or was blown across from the Continent. We surveyed the entire country of Ireland for bark beetles, but we have now really emphasised our surveillance along the east coast, particularly at ports and in forests. We have learned that the most important thing to do is find and remove bark beetles as quickly as possible. We work really closely with our colleagues in Europe. For example, the European Plant Protection Organisation, which I have mentioned already. So we have their experience, and that of other members states and the UK. We work very closely with the UK, and we have a plant health co-ordination group with the authorities there. That group will be meeting next week. Again, we will have a long discussion on bark beetles, the Ips typographus, which is the one they found. We will learn from them how they managed to eradicate the beetle and allow the rest of that country to be declared free of infestation.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank everybody in the Department for the good work that they did to combat bluetongue and bird flu. The threat posed by bluetongue was what every farmer was talking about, particularly as the cattle trade was doing well and this was the one disease we felt could put everything in jeopardy.

Dr. Ryan mentioned that we were all under the one umbrella as regards the EU and what happens when there is an outbreak of disease. That is why farmers were so annoyed with what happened with the Mercosur deal. Irish farmers abide by stringent EU rules but Mercosur will open the floodgates for everything to come in. We are worried about what is going to happen as a result. That is what is really so annoying for farmers.

I am going to ask a question on crop biosecurity. If the witnesses cannot answer it now, they can write to the committee at a later date. What controls are in place to prevent noxious weed seeds coming into Ireland?

Mr. Barry Delany:

I do not deal with that matter, so I will come back to the committee on it. However, there is a list of noxious controlled weeds.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have four questions about that, so Mr. Delany might just take note of them. What checks are carried out on the quality of straw coming into Ireland? What checks are carried out on straw coming from England, which is highly infested with blackgrass? This question is on the lips of many people who make representations to me. Where are inspections of straw carried out? Who is notified about them? Will Mr. Delany respond in writing to the committee on that matter?

Given that the risk from exotic animal diseases is described as being higher than at any other time in the modern era, will the witnesses set out the gaps that still exist in Ireland's readiness?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is worth putting this in context. If we cast our minds back some years, there might have been concern about avian influenza in 2005, 2006 or 2007, foot and mouth disease in 2001 or Newcastle disease in poultry in the 1980s. What has changed is that this is the first time there have been a number of exotic diseases that pose a real threat to us. There have been outbreaks of foot and mouth disease in countries in Europe that have not had such outbreaks in decades. We have lumpy skin disease, which I had the experience of dealing with in Africa a number of years ago. I never thought I would see in western Europe; now it is in Italy, Spain and France. We have bluetongue disease, which used to be confined to the Mediterranean basin. It has now spread right across northern and western Europe. We are now the only territory or country free of bluetongue. There is sheep and goat pox and many other diseases. Avian influenza has gone from being very rare and sporadic to being well established in the wild bird population worldwide. Unfortunately, Europe, and particularly western Europe, is one of the areas with the highest degree of avian influenza in wild birds and that causes outbreaks. That is why I said we are at higher risk. It is because of this multiplicity of threats, which were not there ten, 20 or 30 years ago. There might have been one at a time.

On the gaps, I talk about our strengths and how we have a well developed system in place to prevent diseases coming in when we can. We are not always successful, such as with avian influenza. Second, we have a strong surveillance system for detecting incursions as early as reasonably possible because-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Does the Government funding match the risk Dr. Ryan outlined?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

A huge number of checks take place. We put a lot of effort into surveillance. Looking at the international aspect, we work closely with our colleagues in Northern Ireland, at EU level and with our colleagues in the UK and internationally. Someone mentioned that these diseases do not respect borders. That is why international co-operation and awareness and sharing best practice has been very helpful. The other thing we have now is, unfortunately, experience of dealing with a lot of these threats. I wish we did not, but we do. However, that will help us if the day comes that we have to deal with them. We have a lot of strengths.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask an important question. Is the Department considering mandatory minimum biosecurity standards linked to farm payments or licensing?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Does the Deputy mean linked to the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, payments?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

The CAP is not my area. What I will say is that we have launched a new-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but Dr. Ryan would be in discussions about it.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

No, but what I will say is that we recently launched a new biosecurity strategy, which I hope some of the committee members will have seen. It sets out some of the plans for the future to work with farmers and stakeholders on this. It is worth mentioning that one of the outcomes of our previous biosecurity strategy, which is a useful document, was that we launched a range of codes of practice for specific sectors of industry, including poultry, dairy and pigs. That is working with farmers, and they have been very useful in providing specific, practical guidance on what to do to protect farms. It was developed with farmers and vets who work in those specific areas and is supported by a considerable amount of funding given to Animal Health Ireland to provide training to farmers delivered by its vets on practical biosecurity, not the theoretical stuff, but what farmers can do today to reduce the threat to their poultry, pigs or whatever it may be. That has been a really positive outcome of the last biosecurity strategy.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes. There has been no discussion about the farm payments being linked. This is what happens all the time to farmers, the threat of taking money.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will not comment on the CAP because I am not informed in respect of it. We can come back with a specific answer to that.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Has Brexit affected disease control on the island of Ireland in any way?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Northern Ireland is still under EU rules in the context of the Windsor Framework. I certainly would not speculate that Brexit has been positive in any way, but at a technical level we still have positive and strong relationships and engagement with colleagues in the UK. We have the North-South engagement and EU legislation continues to apply here and in Northern Ireland and that has been useful. It is important to emphasise that we have a positive relationship with our colleagues in Great Britain. That has been helpful because we are in similar geographical locations, we have similar farming systems and on something like avian influenza, for instance. Unfortunately for poultry farmers, particularly in eastern England, there has been a high number of outbreaks of avian influenza there in recent years. Engaging with our colleagues there and understanding what they are going through has been helpful. Those relationships at technical, official and policy level have been useful. I would emphasise the positives.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask one question about forestry?

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Very briefly.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Ash dieback was devastating for people who were growing forests. It is awful that people have to go back and replant because of the money they got previously for that. It is an awful headache for people, especially those who were involved in the ash dieback. Are the witnesses happy to tell people to go ahead and plant? How can people do something like that a second time after getting a belt like that?

Mr. Barry Delany:

I will touch on it briefly. I will just flag that we will be here in a few weeks to talk about ash dieback specifically. Much of it has to do with communication and the landowners understanding the options. People get €2,000 to clear a site, between €3,000 and €8,000 to replant it and when that has been done, they get €5,000 per hectare as well. That is a reasonably generous package. It is as far as we can go within the confines of the EU rules and financial approvals by other Government Departments. At the moment, of the 15,000 ha-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have the Minister at the committee again on forestry topics.

Mr. Barry Delany:

Of the 15,000 ha, 9,000 ha have either been paid or are in the system with us.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is great. If Mr. Delany had 100 acres in the morning, would he plant it?

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on to Deputy Cooney.

Mr. Barry Delany:

Yes.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. The question was answered.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statement. I will go back to one line in it, which Deputy Aird dealt with to a certain degree, namely "In recent years the threat to Ireland posed by exotic animal diseases has become higher than at any time in the modern era". Why is that happening and what measures can be put in place to prevent it happening going forward?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Following on from the answer I gave to Deputy Aird, there are a few reasons. One is climate change, which affects some, though not all, the diseases. One example is the diseases spread by insects such as mosquitoes and biting midges. As the climate becomes warmer, a range of those insects have moved northwards. For instance, there is an unpleasant disease called west Nile virus, which used to be confined to the Mediterranean rim, but it is mosquito borne and the mosquitos that spread it are moving northwards and have now reached the northern part of France, around Paris. It has never been detected in Ireland, but it is one of the diseases that is a threat we are acutely aware of as the climate gets warmer. Bluetongue is another example, which was again previously confined to the Mediterranean basin. The increase in warm weather, which is the high-risk period for bluetongue - we are having warmer and longer summers - has enabled the virus to spread further north. It reached Great Britain and, unfortunately, Northern Ireland. Some of the other diseases probably have a link to political instability in parts of the world where they have always been endemic.

We would traditionally say that all parts of the world are our neighbour when it comes to animal diseases because there is nowhere that is not one flight away from Ireland. Irish people travel all over the world and people from all over the world come here. There is also trade, which is fantastic, but it means that someone could inadvertently bring disease here. While diseases such as lumpy skin disease and foot and mouth disease have not been as big a deal in Europe in recent years, lumpy skin disease, which was traditionally confined to Africa, has now made its way up through the Middle East. There is speculation that the civil disruption in a lot of northern Africa and the Middle East makes it harder for veterinary services and officials to apply the controls and that can help some of these diseases spread. It means that European countries are more at risk. That is the rationale why Ireland has a long and very proud history of engaging internationally through international organisations on trying to control animal and human diseases. It is exactly for that reason. There has, of course, been an increase in trade. Some 40 or 50 years there was not as much global trade as there is now. The increase in trade has been hugely beneficial, particularly for Ireland, but it has enabled diseases to spread and we are acutely aware of that.

As far as what we can do about it, it is about being very much aware of what is happening internationally and staying part of the international networks at European level and also further afield. It is about having really good surveillance systems for animals and I am sure the same applies for trees and plants. We do a lot of surveillance. Although we never want the surveillance to detect the positive, it is far better to detect it as early as possible. It is also about having contingency plans in place and doing simulation exercises. For example, we had a joint simulation exercise on African swine fever with our colleagues from Northern Ireland about a year and a half ago or two years ago. That was really helpful in preparing for what we do if we had an outbreak of African swine fever in the Border region. We had a joint exercise on bluetongue last year. It is about working through what we would do if we had an outbreak. Having these contingency plans and programmes in place is the best defence we have. It is about early detection and early action and doing what we can for to reduce the impact on Irish livestock, forestry or trees. That is our approach. The world is changing and animal diseases and other diseases are changing and we have to acknowledge that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. Ryan think that the Department has the bluetongue outbreak under control? Are the restrictions between the North and the South going to be lifted in the near future? Will Mr. Ryan give us an update?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Northern Ireland had four outbreaks of bluetongue in December. It was discovered in County Down. It was then no longer possible to certify animals for breeding and production to come to Ireland. Animals moving from Northern Ireland to here have to satisfy certain veterinary certification requirements. That is for the protection of all animals and that also applies to Irish animals going anywhere else.

Once those animals had bluetongue, it was no longer possible to certify those animals to come here. They could no longer satisfy the certification requirements for breeding and production. Animals can still come here for slaughter. We have to be pre-notified when that happens and they have to go directly to the slaughter plant and not stop along the way. That is proportionate to the risk. This has been looked at and there is scientific evidence to back it up. Risk analysis has been carried out and it is proportionate.

As far as when the restrictions will be raised, that is a question for when or whether Northern Ireland secures bluetongue freedom. That is something I would not like to speculate on here. We recognise the outlook is not wonderful for bluetongue in Ireland in 2026. Every other country in northern and western Europe has become infected by the bluetongue virus serotype 3. It is in County Down. I think we realistically have to say that there is a likelihood that we will have an outbreak in 2026. We hope not, but we have to be realistic.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Going back to ash dieback, one of the witnesses mentioned the east coast. The west coast and the whole country is affected by ash dieback. Landowners, who are not involved in forestry, have a lot of ash trees on their land and a lot of them would be along road frontage. Is there anything that can be done for those farmers?

The local authorities are on to them to take the trees down, but the local authorities are not supporting them. It is something they did not cause themselves. Can something be looked into to give those farmers support?

Mr. Barry Delany:

I am going to first refer back to Deputy Aird's question about whether farmers have to plant back the trees. The agroforestry scheme could be considered as the compromise we ended up with. At least farmers can now put livestock back on land, if they are not minded to go back to full forestry. That is the package.

In terms of what schemes the Department has on the forestry side, we were able to secure a package for planted ash. The vast majority of ash trees in the hedgerows of Ireland are affected in some way or another. As we saw, many of them came down in the various storms recently and farmers had to take action. The Department does not currently have an agreed approach for that. We would have to work really closely with the local authorities, the Department of housing, Transport Infrastructure Ireland and others to work out how we would do that. To be honest, I do not have any solution to that at the moment. If we think of the scale of roadside ash, it is quite enormous in terms of its removal. The liability is with landowner, as we know from various High Court cases. The liability is on the landowner to remove them.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The scale of it is large, but it is a serious concern for landowners.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement, Dr. Ryan referred to a number of national strategies, such as the farmed animal national strategy and the plant health and biosecurity strategy. He also referred to the beef cattle code of practice which is currently being finalised. How long have these strategies been in place? I know the current farmed animal strategy covers the years 2025 to 2030 and there was one previous to that. Have these strategies been there for decades? How long have we been implementing strategies like these?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

There is a national farmed animal health strategy and the first national farmed animal biosecurity strategy comes under that. The first formalised strategy covered the years 2021 to 2024. We are not reinventing the wheel with the biosecurity strategy. Quite a lot of it is common sense stuff, but this is the first time it was formulated into a strategy. The current strategy is our second one.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are those strategies a consequence of European agreements? Does every country have to have a similar strategy?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

That is not necessarily the case. Biosecurity is part of the one health approach where prevention is seen as better than cure. We see that across human medicine, animal medicine and plant medicine. That is where biosecurity comes in. When we were going to college, we learned all about treating animals. You called out a vet when an animal was sick, whereas now it is all about herd health and vaccination programmes. It is about stopping diseases from getting in. It lends into production and that whole piece around achieving better efficiencies by reducing the disease burden and anti-microbial resistance. It all knits in together.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I commend Dr. Ryan's previous comments about networking with other countries, particularly due to the fact that we are on an island, and an all-island strategy is sensible in that context. We are a distance from the Continent and all of these things help from the point of view of the arrival of diseases. Of course, avian flu is an obvious problem due to migrating birds, but a lot of other species do not migrate as far and that is a positive for Ireland in that context.

The importation of a lot of goods is one of the issues Dr. Ryan referred to. Ash dieback first arrived in Leitrim many years ago. We had the outbreak of it and it spread like wildfire throughout the country. It came from saplings that were imported from Holland because of a strategy the then Government had to get farmers to plant trees. I think it was under one of the farm environmental schemes. Sometimes we come up with strategies to do stuff too quickly and do not think about what the consequences might be. I am particularly concerned that we are importing so much of our animal feed from sub-tropical climates. We have so much maize and corn gluten coming in to feed our animals. What are the dangers in respect of that? Black grass coming in in straw was mentioned earlier. There will be serious consequences if some of these things take hold. Rather than importing products that may have a higher risk of disease, should we be moving in the direction of trying to be more self-sufficient?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

That is a multi-part question. I will answer some of it and then hand over to Mr. Delany.

I agree with the Deputy that our island status provides us with a degree of protection, which has been of benefit to us historically.

On importation, we operate a stringent import controls policy. Biosecurity is implemented at three points for entry to the European Union. First, there are the pre-import checks, where animals and animal products have to be accompanied by a veterinary health certificate certifying that they complied with whatever the specific requirements were for that animal or product of animal origin. They are then checked at our border control posts when they come in, which are staffed by Department staff. These are official facilities where we do identity checks, physical checks and documentary checks to verify, check and sample these things, which could be animals or products of animal origin, that come in. For animals, we often carry out post-import testing. Again, it depends on the animal and the context of where it is coming from, but we frequently carry out post-import testing. There is a movement restriction after animals arrive into the European Union, which in our case is Ireland. There are checks in place. We also have a fairly comprehensive infrastructure in place at Rosslare, Dublin Port and places like that, and border control posts at the airport.

On the question of the plant side, I will ask Mr. Delany to handle that piece.

Mr. Barry Delany:

In the previous existence of this Oireachtas joint committee, we supplied a detailed document on lessons learned from ash dieback. There have been long discussions as to who brought it in, where it came in and so on. "Contested" may be the wrong word, but the reality is there was free movement of plants within the EU at the point when that disease was not fully known or understood. It was Ireland that raised it in the first instance. In any event, it is in every single country in Europe. No one plants ash any more, other than the people doing the research to try to bring these resilient trees, which the Department of agriculture, Teagasc and others are directly involved in. We hope that will work through. From that, it is to do with capacity in terms of doing this horizon scanning to see what other problems are coming. It is the surveillance piece, both internally in the country and at the frontier and all the ports, to ensure the pest is not here and to inspect the increased global trade that is happening and coming into Ireland.

On the protection of our forests, I was here previously regarding bark beetles associated with material coming from Scotland. There is nowhere in the world that can now send logs with bark into Ireland because they cannot meet our requirements. That is a very strong protection that is now there for the Irish forestry sector. We obviously have inspections of the consignments coming in internationally through Dublin Port, Cork and Wexford and so on. That is ongoing.

I will again share that document with the committee. It is useful in showing what we learned from that and we have done since then.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyhan was next on the list but he is not here. I call Deputy Fitzmaurice. He has seven minutes. If he wants to sing a song, he will have to do it within the seven minutes. Is that all right?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Sound. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I also thank him for coming the other day as well, back to Independent Ireland.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The farmers, for Mercosur.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the officials for coming in. Ash dieback was brought into Ireland by the Department allowing plants in, as Deputy Kenny said. Will Mr. Delany address that? I saw a reference to climate change and the bark beetle. My understanding was that the bark beetle was in Scotland, we were bringing timber from Scotland and the danger was that it was in it. What has climate change got to do with that?

Mr. Barry Delany:

As I said, I will share that document again in terms of the learnings from ash dieback and the findings. On the European Union and the free movement of plants, a container of plants coming from the Netherlands to Ireland is treated the same as one coming from Cork. Plants have to meet certain conditions and have to be grown in a certain way, which was not the case with ash dieback. There is a list of 200 or 300 pests and diseases in the European regulations; ash dieback was not one of them. It was a new one that emerged. We and our UK colleagues had identified it and were putting measures in, but at that point a number of consignments had come in. As I said, irrespective of whatever measures we put in, it moves through the air and is in every single country in Europe at the moment. We can talk again on that one.

On Scotland, there are a number of different beetles. When we say "the bark beetle", what we actually mean is there is a whole complex. There are about six or seven bark beetles, some of which are of more concern than others. The one in Scotland of concern at that stage was ips cembrae, which is associated with larch. We had found bark beetles in Cork Port on consignments that had come from Scotland. That was the basis of when trade with Scotland stopped. That is back to surveillance, inspections-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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A computer will not show you that model. If they are in Scotland and are being imported here, it is about surveillance. Does Mr. Delany agree?

Mr. Barry Delany:

Yes, and inspections.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have a question for Dr. Ryan. There is a fair concern among farmers in the southern part of the country about bluetongue. An awful lot lambs come down to the South from Northern Ireland constantly. It was a fair danger when bluetongue was in the North. Why was a decision not taken that would halt in case of the risk? I see there is an all-Ireland policy the officials talk about, and they will probably liaise with Mr. Brian Dooher or whoever, but why was that not looked at? Lorry loads were coming down constantly to factories here. With the best will in the world, if there were any danger of bluetongue, we were nearly trying to bring it in to us, you could say, with those lorry loads coming down, if there were any risk with any of those sheep coming down because sheep can get it the same as cattle.

Is bird flu just transmitted by migratory birds? How is it transmitted across? Johne's disease was talked about. How much testing is done for that? Has the danger of bluetongue abated? Is there is certain period of time? Frosty or cold weather is supposed to kill it off a bit. If you use vaccines on that, or any of the different problems, is it harder to get the animals exported? There is not yet a vaccine for TB that works right. Is there then a reluctance to the export of those animals that makes them less acceptable?

Why are we going down this road? Jesus, if you go on DoneDeal, you will see nearly everything, from a snake to different birds or a crocodile or whatever. A zoo in this country is for kids going off to look at unusual animals. Mink were let out in this country and we see the torture they are causing us now. That is the fact of it. For the people who were farming mink at the end, the Department got involved in it, but mink were let go by these so-called environmentalists and have tortured parts of the country. There are places where the Department has let in these erotic animals or whatever you call them. People then get fed up with them and let them off. We are looking for trouble. If you want to look at some kind of erotic animal, why do you not go to the zoo or have them in a zoo? That is where they should be so they are all fully vaccinated or it is made sure that there is a proper length of time, so that we will not risk this whole thing that we are going down.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We only have a minute and a half.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

There are a few elements. The fact the Deputy mentioned a number of risks highlights why we need a broad, holistic approach to it. That is why we have a national animal health surveillance strategy. It is for exactly the reasons he outlined. There are a number of risks and we need to look at a number of things. We use that national animal health surveillance strategy, which is a very practical one.

On bluetongue and lambs for slaughter from Northern Ireland, Senator Daly referred to making sure that policy is proportionate and balances the risk and the impact. It simply would not have been proportionate to stop animals moving for slaughter from Northern Ireland. There is no provision in EU legislation to stop that. That is because after doing the risk assessments and looking at the science, it is not proportionate. We would not be closing off an element of risk by stopping those moves direct to slaughter. To provide the background, animals can still move directly from Northern Ireland to slaughter here. They have to go directly to slaughter. They cannot stop off. It has to be pre-notified to the Department before they move.

That is proportionate.

I will go to the bluetongue questions next that the Deputy had on the weather because they link to that. Bluetongue is spread principally through biting midges. In order for the virus to replicate in the midges, the average day temperatures have to exceed 12 degrees for a considerable amount of time. One warm day does not do it. At present, average day temperatures are far below 12 degrees and while we might see the odd midge around here or there if you are by a body of water, there is very little midge activity. Bluetongue is not currently going to be transmitted on this island. It is too cold. It could still be transmitted by products such as an infected bull or a pregnant animal coming in, but the main risk is through spread by infected midges. That is why it is not proportionate to stop movement of animals directly for slaughter and that is the reason it is not provided for in EU legislation. It is not arbitrary; it is well thought out and proportionate.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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My apologies, we might let Senator Boyhan in now.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The witness was in the middle of talking so we might let them go ahead.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can come in again on the next round.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the team here today. I will direct most of my questions to Mr. Delany in particular, because I will focus on one issue. The Chair initially said when we came here today that there was a vast array of issues that would come under this topic of biosecurity, and I understand that. I want to talk about the bark beetle, and I know Mr. Delany referred to different issues. At the outset, I acknowledge the Irish Government has a new €1.3 billion forestry programme with ambitious targets for its delivery, and I acknowledge the determination and energy of Minister of State, Deputy Healy Rae, in driving that policy forward. We are still way below our current figures in terms of our ambition, but it is early days yet. I wish the Minister of State and the witnesses well in that.

It is crucial that we revise our strategies. Looking at the website today, the Plant Health and Biosecurity Strategy 2020-2025 has expired. There is a public consultation which I think closed last week, so there is a bit of work to do on it and the witnesses might touch on that later. It is crucial we revise our strategies to mitigate the potential impact of the bark beetle across our entire forestry value chain and estate. It is a massive industry. We know that over 48% is Sitka spruce and spruce of varying degrees in forestry. I was in Leitrim the other day. When you think of the potential outbreak for that county alone, it is enormous. We have overinvested in and focused too much on one type of species. We do not have diversity in species planting in forestry. We acknowledge that. We prioritise everything by productivity rather than by a more diverse, environmentally sustainable forestry programme. That is going to take time to change and is a long way off. However, we know there are challenges for the international markets. We know there is the ability to achieve our climate targets if this is impacted.

The witnesses quoted a lot of work in the UK. Having read several documents in the past week, I am convinced we now know the bulk of this is airborne. We do not have that much coming in any other way. We know we currently have it in Sussex and we have had it in Kent. There is a lack of joined-up thinking. While the witnesses might have informal arrangements, we need a wake-up call right across the European Union on this. This bark beetle is a potential crisis and we are walking into a crisis because of our over-reliance on certain species. We need to reconcile our silviculture, our forestry protection and all of that, but that is another days' work.

Earlier, the Chair touched on the very good point of emerging technology trends to assist with forestry risks such as the bark beetle. This is happening in the UK, Romania and right across Europe. I have seen models of it. We have got to embrace the forestry risk management in terms of digital transformation. It works and I have seen it work. Satellite, close range sensory stuff, artificial intelligence, horizon scanning tools - all these things - play a significant part in the UK in managing the bark beetle. The witnesses might touch on that.

The IFA was with us last year and I had a look earlier at its presentation. It raised concerns about confidence in biodiversity measures and inspection regimes at ports. It has genuine concerns and we have to learn something from the elm disease, where without doubt we effectively have not much elm in the country at all now. There is also the ash dieback, the new diseases attacking pine trees, and the pine weevils. These are serious issues for us in Ireland.

What are we going to do about a new strategy and bringing the forestry sector on? I will finish on this, because we know the problems but we do not necessarily know the answers. This specifically relates to forestry. Most countries all over Europe have a national forestry authority and it is something the IFA and members of this committee have called for. I might ask the witnesses for their comments on that.

I will finish on this point. I note the local authorities have responsibility for invasive species, and it strikes me that that should be the Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government. There is a real need to bring all that into the Department of agriculture. These are just some thoughts but the witnesses might give me their comments on them.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We only have about nine seconds but the witness can go ahead.

Mr. Barry Delany:

I will rattle through that, but we can come back to some of these again.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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We have another two hours.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We will get the Senator on the next round.

Mr. Barry Delany:

I thank the Senator for his comments. I entirely agree that value chain and forestry is worth about €2 billion within the economy, so it is very important to us. The Senator spoke about the reliance on certain species, and Sitka spruce is dominant in 50% of the forestry of the State. In the more recent planting programmes we have approved under state aid with the European Commission, you can see the planting has moved and changed, with people moving towards planting broadleaf species. We are beyond 50% in that in the current planting programme.

As regards commercial planting, there has been a certain change there in that it is not a full 100% planting of Sitka spruce. There is a mix within that with some broadleaf species in there, as well as setbacks. There are some legacy issues but not in terms of what is happening and being planted now. It is taking into account that we need more biodiversity. However, we also have to meet our climate targets and that involves having commercial timber available to go into our building sector, but that is probably a bit beyond this discussion on biosecurity.

Coming into the biosecurity piece, the infrastructure we have put in place at the ports is excellent. The Senator has been down in Dublin Port and seen what we inspect there and elsewhere what comes through. Specifically on the bark beetle, and when we say bark beetle, the Senator is talking about Ips typographus, that is widespread in Europe, predominantly around Norway spruce, so it does not really impact on Sitka spruce unless it is stressed or under pressure. That could be to our benefit if we had a single or small number of findings. It is probably going to be found through wind blow and in traps along the east coast. We can deal with that immediately and not allow any population to deliver. That is our hope for how that will help the rest of the forestry estate.

We are working very closely with our UK colleagues in terms of the modelling they use. For our own modelling, we are also using drones, heat mapping and infra-red mapping to see where these susceptible forests are, where they are weak and what we can do to try to protect them.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator happy with that?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Yes, thank you.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome the group and thank them for being here to try to help us with the different problems we have.

One of the biggest problems we have in the country at the present time is the spread of TB. From what we are hearing, we probably have more of it in Kerry and it is spreading fiercely and at a desperate rate in our county. One thing I have learned over the past two years is that certain areas in our county were deemed to be vaccination only for badgers, that the badgers were to be vaccinated, and in other areas badgers were to be culled. Much of Kerry was under this situation for the past two years, up until September, I believe.

Had the witnesses any role in deciding in which areas the badgers were to be vaccinated and in which areas the badgers were to be culled?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Yes, of course. The badger vaccination or wildlife control programme covers the whole country. In certain areas, badgers that are caught are removed and culled. In other areas, they are vaccinated. Of course, many of them are tested before they are vaccinated and if they test positive for TB, they are culled. If within those badger vaccination areas there is an outbreak of TB in cattle attributed to badgers, the badgers in that area will be culled. Even if it is a vaccination area, badgers can still be culled within the area.

The committee will be aware from previous TB-specific hearings it has had about the use of the test vaccinator release programme that badgers are captured and tested for TB. If they are positive, they are removed and if they are negative, they are vaccinated.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Let us be clear about this. What happened for two years in Kerry until last September was that areas were deemed suitable for vaccination. Badgers were not tested. I know that. They were not tested and were vaccinated. That is where the problem lay. There is not much point in vaccinating badgers if they already have TB. Since September, we have wised up. The badgers are being culled. They are also being tested. Are the witnesses involved directly with selecting the areas where badgers are to be vaccinated and the areas where they are to be culled?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

The Department of agriculture is involved. The TB eradication programme is obviously run and administered by the Department. Cattle, wildlife and all the other aspects are involved. There are criteria whereby badger culling is the default and other areas where badger vaccination is chosen. To go back to that point, just because an area is for badger vaccination does not mean there is no culling in that area. Badgers will still be culled, if necessary, in that area. It is important to emphasise that badgers are only culled in areas where there is a breakdown in cattle attributed to badgers. Of course, they are a protected species and there are licensing requirements in place that we comply with before the removal of the badgers. If there is an area for badger vaccination, you can still have culling where necessary. If there is a breakdown attributed to badgers in that area, under licence the removals take place.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is why I am rasing this issue. It is serious. Many fellas are afraid they are going to lose their livelihoods. They have been cleaned out. Two thirds of their herds have been taken. It is as a direct result of the fact that, in certain parts of Kerry, we had two years without culling and just vaccinations. The Department needs to be more on its game as far as farmers' livelihoods and herds are concerned. I know a man who had 66 animals. He is going out to his yard every morning now with none. He said he does not think he will be able to stick it. We must be more careful. These are people's livelihoods and lives.

Another man has lost two thirds of his herd. People have of late come to him to shoot the deer. They found deer with TB. They were taken up to the laboratory in Cork and there will be no answer for eight weeks. How is that taking so long? Those are the kinds of questions we need answered. Why is that going to take eight weeks?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will answer the question about the laboratory before the broader question because the laboratory question is a straightforward technical question. TB is a slow-growing bacteria. Unlike, say, E. coli or salmonella, which can grow in two or three days, Mycobacterium bovis takes eight to ten weeks to grow. It is a slow-growing bacteria. It grows slowly in infected animals and on agar plates. That is how long it can take to grow. If it were a sample for salmonella or E. coli, you would expect a result within three days. That is the straightforward technical answer to that question.

On the broader question, the impact of TB on affected farmers is dreadful. There is a considerable human cost and we are acutely aware of that. The Deputy will be aware that a new TB action plan was launched in September of this year with five actions and 30 sub-actions under it. That is recognising the need to do more in TB. Of course, TB is spread by the movement of infected cattle, which may be brought into herds undetected.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Can I-----

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

May I just finish my point quickly?

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am looking at the clock. I am not blaming Mr. Ryan, but-----

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

This is an important point. I might just say that the way TB is spread is by the movement of infected cattle, by residual infection within herds, where it may reoccur years later, and by wildlife. It is important to address all three of those routes. That is what the TB action plan is doing. TB levels have decreased from a peak of 6.43% at the beginning of July last year to 5.68% last week There has been an 11% decrease in TB levels in the past six months. That is still far too high and far too many people are affected. However, it does show that the actions taking place are starting to have an impact. It is important to build on that in terms of wildlife, as the Deputy has highlighted, the risk of buying in infected cattle and ensuring that people are aware of the TB history of herds, and of residual infection. We must look at all those factors. Of course, we know there is no one magic bullet with TB. A number of things need to be done, as the Deputy has highlighted. It is a hugely impactful disease on farmers.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Newsome Drennan. I need to-----

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I just-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to keep-----

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have to follow up on this a small bit. A farmer's herd goes down and the cattle have to get a blood test. Perhaps 15 or 20 are affected. There are blood tests. What is the other thing?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Is it the skin or the blood?

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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There are lesions then. The farmer asks for that test to be done on the cattle that have gone down. That is never done for them. The other thing that is very serious is that when the cattle go down, there seems to be too much of a delay and the infected animals are left with the ones that have not gone down. I am asking for that process to be sped up.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I thank the Deputy. On the final point-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Dr. Ryan to be very brief because I need to move on to Deputy Newsome Drennan.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will be really quick. It is an important point. It is important when cattle go down that they are separated from other cattle. The scenario outlined by the Deputy should not happen.

We are very clear with farmers that, as difficult as it is, if you have reactors, while you are waiting for them to be removed, they need to be separated and not kept with the unaffected cattle. There is a process for reactor removals that we work through. Sometimes there are delays because animals may be medicated or there may be logistical difficulties. It is, generally, a smooth process, but occasionally there can be specific difficulties, which are hard for the people affected.

The Deputy asked about lesions. TB is caused by a tiny microscopic bacterium. It is only when the disease progresses that you get this essentially rotted flesh in the lungs or the back of the throat that is grossly visible. It is golf-ball sized. You can see it with your eye. Just because you do not see these golf-ball sized rotted lesions when an animal tests positive for TB does not mean the animal is not infected. You cannot see the bacteria on somebody's hand and yet, unless you have sterilized your hands, you know they are there. It is important to recognise that.

When we say "lesions", what we mean is rotting and diseased flesh in an animal's lungs. That only happens towards the end. It is the same for people. The Deputy or I could be infected, God forbid, with TB and not necessarily be diseased and sick for quite a while. That is a source of communication issues. That is why it is important that we work on our communications. When people are stressed and upset, they can unintentionally get the message that their reactors did not have lesions. That does not mean the reactors were not infected. It means the reactors were identified before they progressed to that diseased state. We all know that one can be infected by a virus or bacteria. When we say "lesions", it is a polite way of saying "rotted flesh full of bacteria". These lesions are about the size of a golf ball. You can see them when the disease is advanced. Just because you do not see a golf-ball sized lump of rotting flesh in the lung does not mean the animal is not infected with TB. It is. People should have faith in the test to pull out the positives. It does work for pulling out the positives with a very high degree of confidence. We know that. There has been a communication issue going back decades. I know that myself. People say they had three reactors but it turned out none of them had TB. That is a miscommunication. We recognise that in our new strategy. We need to be much more clear with people at an incredibly stressful time in their lives. I often think that people outside our area do not understand just how severe the impact of TB is on farmers.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Newsome Drennan.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Please-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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No. I call Deputy Newsome Drennan.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of the checks that were done on the meat that came in from the Mercosur countries and the delays to the results. By the time the results were in, the meat had been consumed. What issues can the Department see with delays in testing meat and animals coming into the ports? What we are seeing in terms of delays is not positive. How can we improve that? I am also talking about poultry.

On TB, does the Department have any role in objecting to large building works going on in areas where there are lots of badgers? Can it restrict such works? Is there anything it can do? Can it advise against building in such an area because the badgers will obviously scatter once the work starts? You are talking about a large area deep in the country where TB might possibly be present.

Dr. Hobson was talking about the One Health strategy and how it is similar to what we have for human health. Is that just for Ireland? Is it an all-Ireland thing? Is it mirrored across Europe? Are there any all-island issues? It sounds like it is working really well. Is there anything that could be improved, for example, relationships? Is it similar across the water? Is the same relationship there?

The beef cattle code of practice is due in 2026. I take it there has not been one especially for beef before. Is that how it is? The witnesses said it is all stuff that is practised already and that it is just putting it down on paper in a booklet. Is anything new to be included that is not already being done?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will hand over to my colleague Dr. Hobson with regard to One Health and what is new in the beef cattle code of practice.

Dr. Avril Hobson:

Within Ireland, we have a national One Health committee. This includes representatives from the Department of Health, the Department of agriculture and the Department of the environment and relevant agencies under their remit. That recognises that the health of the environment is linked to the health of animals and the health of humans. For the last six months of last year, Denmark held the EU Presidency. One of the features of that presidency was One Health. It is an expanding area. Denmark held a One Health conference. It invited representatives from all the member states, mainly civil servants. Dr. Ryan and I attended. It was about looking at each member state and coming up with ideas as to how to integrate health strategies and animal strategies. It was really pleasing that Ireland was seen as one of the forerunners with our national One Health committee. The whole One Health sphere is an evolving area.

Regarding the Deputy's questions on the code of practice, we started developing codes of practice for the intensive sectors, the pig and poultry sectors, first. They are very much developed by stakeholders. Teagasc, Animal Health Ireland and farmers have input. We then moved onto dairy cows. We have a code of practice for dairy cows. We have now moved onto the beef sector. There will obviously be an overlap between the code for dairy cows and that for the beef sector.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Has that started yet or is it just in process?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

The code of practice for dairy cows has been developed and published.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry; I was asking about the code for beef cattle.

Dr. Avril Hobson:

It has. I expect it to be finalised. It has gone out to the stakeholders for agreement. We want a code of practice that is practical. It is up to farmers to have good biosecurity on their own farms.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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They are being allowed to have their say on it.

Dr. Avril Hobson:

Yes. We are trying to come up with practical and pragmatic advice that people can pick up and use. It is almost concluded.

On North-South issues, as has already been alluded to, we have regular North-South meetings. We also have meeting with our colleagues in the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Turning to the question about TB and large building works, the Department of agriculture does not have a role in objecting or agreeing to infrastructure that is not within the Department's remit. However, we have carried out and supported research on the impact of major infrastructure projects like road building. This goes back to the original question from the Cathaoirleach about research to inform these things. That research was done in conjunction with UCD and it was published. It found that major infrastructure projects like building a new motorway can disturb local badger setts.

One of the benefits of badger vaccination is that one can vaccinate badger populations in the area before there is a TB outbreak. It is important to remember that badgers are a protected species. You cannot cull badgers just in case. You can only do it under very specific criteria when there is a bovine TB outbreak in a herd that is epidemiologically attributed to those badgers. You cannot say that we are building a road so something should be done. However, you can vaccinate badgers in advance because that is protecting their own health. The other point to mention is that, because badgers are a protected species, their setts are protected. There are frameworks with the National Parks and Wildlife Service and appropriate bodies for anybody carrying out these works where a badger sett is to be disturbed. That applies across the way. That is not within the Department of agriculture's remit. I am aware of it because our work on badgers crosses these areas. That is one of the reasons badger vaccination is a really useful tool to protect farmers and cattle. It is not to protect the badgers. If we have vaccinated the badgers, it means that, if they are disturbed or made more susceptible to TB, they have been provided with a degree of population immunity before there is an outbreak in cattle. We should not wait for it to spill over into the cattle so that we can say there is now an outbreak attributable to badgers. We should do something in advance. That is the benefit of that tool.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I am getting at. At what point is the Department called in to administer vaccinations?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

We are not called in specifically. If you see a major road being built in your area, we would be made aware.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Somebody has to flag it first, however.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

As the members will know, Department of agriculture team members live across the country. We live in the communities. Our inspectors, officials and agricultural officers all live in these areas. We spend our days talking to farmers out on farms and engaging with people. In that way, we would find out that a bypass is being built, for example. Bypasses are not built overnight. A lot of the time, we would decide to vaccinate in a given area before there is a disturbance. That protects farmers and it protects badgers. It is just not permitted to cull badgers except under very specific licensed circumstances where there is an outbreak in cattle that can be specifically attributed to badgers. That is a high bar whereas vaccination-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Ryan but I need to move on to Senator Brady.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome. I will follow on from that question on badgers and then move onto some other things. With Storm Éowyn, we saw massive amounts of forestry destroyed, which is now being removed. With that forestry being removed, populations of badgers are on the move. With the heavy machinery going in to remove forestry and so on, you are going to see badgers moving from their natural forests, where they have lived, to a different arena. There might be a main sett and four other setts in a locality. Has the Department acquired a database from the forestry services, local gun clubs or the National Parks and Wildlife Service? It must have a database when it is going to badger setts to vaccinate badgers.

Is there a portal there where if a farmer comes across a badger sett when he is out shooting, he can log it onto the website or is there some sort of mechanism there? That is the first question.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

The answer to the Senator's question is "Yes", there is an app for that. Our wildlife app was developed for exactly that reason. If you are on your own farm and you find a sett, you can go onto our wildlife app, which is available on our website and report that sett. I forget the year now but I think that was launched in 2019 or 2020. I do not have the exact date. This is a broad subject so we could not have briefings for everything. We can take it that it was launched in 2019 or 2020. That has been hugely successful and we have had thousands and thousands of reports of badger setts from farmers. That does not mean they are reporting the setts so the badgers can be removed. It is because we will know they are there. If it is a vaccine area, we will be able to vaccinate them. If there was a breakdown in TB in cattle and if that was attributed to badgers, we now know that is there for that reason too.

The answer is "Yes". We have a very large database of setts across the country that goes back years. Badger setts tend to be quite stable. Some of the setts are 100 years old. The biology and ecology of badgers is fascinating. We continually have new setts reported to us. We have very good coverage in our database because there does not tend to be new setts too often. We have these reported.

On the Senator's query about forestry data, we have data from that. I do not have an up-to-date briefing so I apologise in advance if I get a year wrong. Several years ago, we engaged with Coillte on getting information from it on where it has identified setts. Of course, when you are carrying out forestry clearance, you need to identify the setts. Those setts were added to our database, so there is a structure in place now. I will say in advance that I do not have the latest info on that because I did not have the briefing but that structure was in place and we received data on exactly what the Senator has outlined.

We have our own very detailed database. We have setts being reported all the time and not just by farmers. Anybody can report it. We get information provided to us from the forestry side.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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With Storm Éowyn, and we are seeing a lot of woods being cleared at this moment in time, you will see the badgers on the move. You can expect TB to actually increase, if that is the case. When you see the movement of badgers when they are leaving their natural habitat, and they are on the move and we can accept they will be on the move, there will be setts out there that have positive TB cases in them that will infect herds. My point is we will see an increase in TB in the next 12 months due to Storm Éowyn. Is that acceptable to the Department?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is a little bit more subtle and nuanced than that. This is not the first time this has come up. We commissioned a research project with UCD years ago to look exactly this. Some here might remember that about five or six years ago, there were concerns about whether clear-felling forestry caused an increase or decrease in TB. We commissioned research on it. I am sort of summarising it here rather than having the details but it is all published and publicly available. Initially, in the situation where there has been a storm or a clear-felling, the badgers can migrate out locally. When the regrowth starts, they migrate back in.

It also depends on the type of land you have. If you have crops or grassland, there will be different types of ecologies. It was a very sophisticated study. It also depends on the timeline. The risk may increase in six months and decrease in six to 12 months, depending on the land type around it. It is actually quite nuanced. I had originally wondered whether it will either go up or down but it is very much dependent on time. It goes up and it comes down or in other areas, it will go down and it will come up. It depends on the state of the maturity of the forests and it depends on the grassland. We cannot control that.

The two things we can control are that we can vaccinate badgers in advance. This is the benefit of badger vaccination. You do not have to wait for TB. This is why one of our big biosecurity tickets - it is under the national biosecurity strategy but members will also probably have all heard of us talk about it with TB - is the importance of farmers taking action to take biosecurity measures themselves to offset that wildlife risk. That involves things like raising the height of your water troughs, making sure that maize and silage cannot be accessible to badgers who are on the move.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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That is in the-----

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

These are things that farmers can do. You cannot close off all of the risks but there are things farmers can do. Farmers are doing it and I see it even when I am out and about. You will see a place that had troughs on the ground last year and now they are raised. There are people taking practical action that even if the situation we have just outlined with forestry transpires, it will reduce the-----

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I will go before the clock, if that is okay.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is an important point that there are things farmers can do, which we are encouraging them to do and which they are doing to reduce that risk with badgers.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I can accept that. Regarding bluetongue, it is nearly a given that bluetongue will come in here during the summer months. As for the Department's actions on that, will it be set out in provinces, that is, Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht, regarding it? If we get an outbreak, our live export is in danger. Is that correct?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

The Senator is right. We are facing into a risky year. There is no point not being straight about it. We should be realistic. We are at high risk of bluetongue in 2026. It is everywhere else in northern and western Europe. It has reached Northern Ireland. It is on the coast of Wales, Cornwall and Lancashire. We are at risk. That is why the Minister authorised the bluetongue vaccination a few weeks ago to be used here.

If it comes in, it will increase the logistical and cost issues of exporting animals. It will not be banned. If you have bluetongue in a country, you may have to do things like test animals before they go, vaccinate them or quarantine them. That adds a little bit of logistics and cost to moving those out. If the controls come in, our priority is to detect as early as we can and control it, if possible. We also have to be realistic and say it may not be possible, despite our best efforts, to control it. That is why we regularly engage with stakeholders on this. We had meetings probably every six or eight weeks at the back-end of last year with stakeholders on bluetongue to discuss exactly these things. We have had very positive meetings with the farm organisations and other stakeholders to say that this a dynamic situation and this is why we are engaging with it.

The outlook is not wonderful on bluetongue and that is just the reality.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Can I just ask about barber's pole in sheep?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Okay.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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We have not seen barber's pole in this country in recent years until the year before last, which was the first recorded barber's pole infection here. Now, we have seen barber's pole spread throughout our flock. I would like Dr. Ryan's thoughts on it because there is no protection against barber's pole, as far as I am aware, or is there?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

We might get back to the Senator with a written answer because I would hate to provide an answer and then realise I had said the wrong thing.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I just wanted to ask that.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is a broad area we prepped for today and that is quite a niche question. We will reply with a written reply.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses for coming in today. We really appreciate that and I thank them for their information beforehand. I want to clarify one thing. Deputy Fitzmaurice was speaking earlier about erotic animals. I think he actually meant exotic animals. Far be it from me to judge but I imagine it was exotic rather than erotic animals. I am sure we will have another session on erotic animals into the future. We might add it to the agenda.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure it will be in print at the weekend in Saturday's edition of The Irish Times.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the importance of the Irish agrifood business and industry, we know in 2024, there were over €19 billion of food exports. Hopefully that will top €20 billion for 2025 when the final figures come in. We know about the 170,000 jobs in the agrifood business. Biosecurity is a critical and key element in protecting the agrifood sector and our public health from various different diseases.

My first question is about the budget. What kind of a budget is set aside for biosecurity in Ireland on an annual basis?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I am trying to find my idea of figures somewhere. Of course, there are the overall departmental activities, which are carried out by Department staff as a part of what we do. There is a specific allocation for biosecurity training and support of farmers under the Animal Health Ireland targeted animal support programme.

These are visits carried out by the farmer's own vet, who is trained and paid to do it. I have the figures somewhere, and they are wonderful. There were 58,000 of these visits carried out between 2015 and 2025. Those were funded by the Department via Animal Health Ireland. There has been an increase in funding for that this year. That specific advice now covers-----

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the funding increased depending on what is happening in the world? If, for example, TB increases, is extra funding made available and if bluetongue comes in, are there extra visits or is it a set amount every year?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

That particular funding is for routine biosecurity assessments. Prevention is better than cure. It is to prepare everybody. Some of it is targeted. Part of it is for herds with TB but it is also, similar to what Dr. Ryan said, to help farmers prevent TB.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The mention of TB segues me nicely onto my nice section. We had the Department in a number of months ago. Its representatives spoke about TB and stated significant funding was made available in the budget to eradicate it. We were told in the meeting that there would likely be two years of increases in the TB detection rates. I heard earlier that in July last year, the detection rate was 6.4% and it is now down to 5.6%. Is TB reducing in the country?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It has reduced. Our recent peak was the end of June and beginning of July 2025. I think it was 6.43% herd incidence and something like 41,000 reactors in the preceding 12 months. Since then it has decreased week on week. I have the figure here somewhere. From memory, I think it is 5.68% or 5.7% this week.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a significant decrease.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is slightly over 11%.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What would that be attributed to? Is it greater awareness of TB, extra funding or what is it?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I have the figures here. There were 42,455 reactors in the 12 months to June and 37,754 reactors in the 12 months up to two weeks ago. That is a decrease of slightly over 11%. We always say with TB that it is not one thing. There has been a lot of work and effort put into this by farmers, vets, stakeholders and the Department in recent years, particularly on messaging and advice. That includes being conscious of buying in high-risk animals; of the things to be done to reduce the risk from badgers, such as badger vaccination; and of buying bull semen from genetically resistant bulls, whose offspring are less likely to get TB. That is starting to bed in and is being built on and supported by the Minister's action plan launched in September. There are five themes and 30 subactions under that plan. Those are all about building on this. It is particularly about communication and risk advice. TB cannot just be solved in a Department office or laboratory.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to acknowledge for the Department and all the family farms in the country that huge progress has been made. That is an important message to get out there today. The rates of TB are falling in this country. That is very positive.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I am always acutely conscious that what sounds like a good news message is no comfort at all to somebody who has TB on their farm. The figure of 5.68% is still far too high and 37,000 reactors are far too many. It does indicate, however, that for six months there has been progress. The challenge now is to build on that. This is a tricky disease. You do not just crack it and work away. It is a difficult disease with multiple hosts and multiple ways of transmission. I spoke of the risk of buying infected animals that are not detected, of residual infection in herds which had a TB outbreak a few years previously and of the risk from wildlife. We are addressing those three areas in the action plan. It is good news but I am acutely conscious that this message can sound tone deaf to somebody in desperate-----

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I totally accept that.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

The Deputy is the same as me. When you hear people with TB, it is awful.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have seen the devastation it has caused.

In terms of bluetongue, I am encouraged by the weather we are having at the moment. The cold blast will hugely inhibit the spread of bluetongue. Are we out of the woods yet in terms of bluetongue in the Republic? Where are we at with an all-Ireland approach involving engagement and collaboration between Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

We are certainly not out of the woods on bluetongue. We are very much in the woods.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How far into the woods are we? Are we in the middle of them? Can we turn around and go back.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

There are multiple types of bluetongue. This serotype 3 has spread to every country and region in northern and western Europe in just two years, including Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Lancashire and other places near us. This is the only place that has not yet found an infection. That does not bode well. We are carrying out a lot of surveillance. That provides us with confidence that we have not had any infection but, of course, we might find evidence of an outbreak tomorrow. Maybe some animals got mildly sick and did not pass it on. Right now, we feel confident we have not had an outbreak of bluetongue. We have confidence in the surveillance we are carrying out. Part of doing surveillance means that if it is there, you want to find it. It is important to find it.

Right now, bluetongue will not spread via midges on this island because it is too cold. However, four outbreaks have been detected in County Down. We have to be realistic. It is likely when the temperature increases in May or June - early summer - and is consistently above 12°C, it will be warm enough for the virus to replicate in midges. Midges may blow into this country from England or Wales, or may come from Northern Ireland. That is a real risk and it is why the Minister decided to authorise the use of bluetongue vaccines just before Christmas, even though we do not have bluetongue. It will enable farmers, if they so wish, to vaccinate their cattle or sheep. They can talk to their vets now before the high-risk summer period. There is a few months in which they can think about this. They have to decide whether they want to spend the money. Some farmers do and some may say it is not a good use. Bluetongue will not spread via midges on the island right now but there is always the risk of spread via general products such as infected bull semen or via pregnant animals. We have controls in place for that but I am not feeling optimistic for 2026 with bluetongue.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I touched earlier on the Plant Health and Biosecurity Strategy 2020-2025. That is over. There may be lessons learned. It is always good to analyse a strategy to identify its failings and weaknesses, or indeed its strengths. I presume that has been done. Will the witnesses confirm that? Second, will they tell us when they hope to publish the new strategy?

Mr. Barry Delany:

There is a broader consultation on the new plant health and biodiversity strategy. It is very much informed by the previous strategy because it was clear about risk anticipation, risk surveillance and risk awareness - those three pillars. That is back to the portal piece in terms of horizon scanning, internal surveillance and, importantly, education, training, guidance and communication with those involved, whether people who grow, people who import or people who purchase.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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When is it hoped to have that ready?

Mr. Barry Delany:

Very shortly. The consultation closed on Friday so we have just got the comments back from interested stakeholders. We are working through those. There is a plant health stakeholders grouping and they are all integrally involved in that. It is an all-in-one process.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is fine. I will push on. I want to ask short questions and get short answers. It was said there will be a tailored plan on how to respond in the event that the bark beetle is detected. The Department says the plan is at an advanced stage of development. Where are we in relation to that?

Mr. Barry Delany:

We have a generic contingency plan that kicks in no matter what pest is involved. Specifically for the bark beetle, Ips typographus, we have a forest health stakeholder grouping. We have more or less signed off on that document. We are just making sure they agree with that. The Senator will see it in the next week or two.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. I note from local authorities that the Department of local government has responsibilities regarding invasive species. Is there some duplication? There should be crossover with the Department but I could not find any.

I see that local authorities are endeavouring to carry this out. There is a bit of science there, a bit of expertise that they do not necessarily have. Some local authorities had agricultural advisers traditionally. I do not know what the situation is in that regard now. What is the focus in terms of invasive species? Mr. Delany mentioned that blackgrass is a challenge. There are other noxious weeds, etc., where there are problems.

Mr. Barry Delany:

Those aspects all come under the Department’s remit. The National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and the Department of housing cover some of the other invasive alien species beyond that. The Department of agriculture is still involved on the frontier in terms of the inspections of the consignments coming through. I am not directly involved so I will get some information for the Senator on that. I am not directly involved in it.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Will Dr. Ryan touch on the financial resources, capacity and expertise available to the Department? Biosecurity is critically important now. We see the enormous challenges and difficulties around all of that. Can Dr. Ryan take us through that? If he does not have the exact details today – I appreciate it is technical and he might not have seen this coming - I ask him to provide a memo or note to the committee. We want to get a handle on whether the Department has all the resources it needs. This is a huge area and it is a science. We need to stress that. There is more to this than just an understanding. It is a science and it needs resources and capacity within the Department. Does the Department have that? Can Dr. Ryan give us confidence in that regard? The IFA talks about having no confidence. We need to instil confidence. Transparency is part of that message of instilling confidence in the farming and forester communities. It is a bigger issue but we need to know whether Dr. Ryan feels that he can say today, at this Oireachtas committee, that the Department has all the resources at its disposable to progress the biosecurity strategy to the level required.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

That is a broad question, obviously.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I know it is.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I was asked earlier about the resources allocated to the targeted advisory service on animal health, TASAH, and I could not find my note. Anyway, I found it now. A total of €8.2 million was spent on biosecurity, targeted animal support and advisory herd visits in 2025. This is where we pay, via Animal Health Ireland, for farmers’ veterinarians to go out to give farmers specific advice on biosecurity. There is a similar allocation for 2026. This demonstrates that commitment. That was a specific sum of €8.2 million for 2025. There were 28,000 visits in total carried out in 2025. I might hand over to my colleague, Dr. Hobson, to talk specifically about all the other ways that we support biosecurity.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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To be clear, I am not asking what the Department is doing. I do not doubt what the Department is doing. I have no doubt about that. I have every confidence in what the Department is doing. Has the Department sufficient resources to do it to the level that Dr. Ryan believes is required? That is what I am asking. Many public servants have come in here and expressed concern. They are not afraid. Some good public servants do not have a problem coming in and saying they could do with more resources. I know most people will say the more resources they have, the better. I want to get a handle on whether there is a problem in terms of resources for the Department to do its job.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will hand over to Dr. Hobson on that question.

Dr. Avril Hobson:

All the research shows that biosecurity at a higher level is well understood. It is not something that should be from the top down, however. We can talk about biosecurity but is that going to help the farmer in any specific county? That is why we work with the likes of Teagasc, Animal Health Ireland and veterinarians. It is about getting all the stakeholders in to get that biosecurity message out.

TASAH was first rolled out to the pig and poultry sector. There was a previous question about the CAP. Those in the Bord Bia quality assurance scheme for pigs and poultry have to do a biosecurity assessment. That is where we would see that. Biosecurity is especially important for the intensive sectors.

Farmers are going to listen to their peers, namely, other farmers. That is why we do it through knowledge transfer programmes with Teagasc. They are also going to listen to advice from their own vets. That is through the TASAH. We will have an article in the next edition of the Veterinary Ireland Journal to get that communication piece out. With our biosecurity strategy, it is not that we kept the messaging simple but, rather, we are keeping it in line with ABC, that is, awareness, behavioural change and consistency. Unfortunately, farmers must consistently undertake biosecurity practices on their farm. That is really where our focus is. We were delighted to have Teagasc and Animal Health Ireland to help us with the launch. The direction of travel with the next strategy is to work closely with those partners.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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First, it is not often that we get an opportunity here to say “Well done” to those involved in biosecurity but I am saying that today to the witnesses. I thank them for what they have done. In the meat factory in Rathdowney, County Laois, cattle are being slaughtered for export to China. That is great news. It is a great opening for this country. The fact that we are in a position today to start slaughtering cattle in this country for export to China shows confidence and the work the witnesses have done. I acknowledge that.

As the witnesses know, biosecurity measures are increasingly complex, time-consuming and costly for farmers. What assessment has the Department made of that burden? How will it ensure that biosecurity policy does not unintentionally undermine farm viability or erode trust and co-operation between farmers and the Department?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

We have developed the codes of practice and they are all guidelines. Every farm will be different, so we have not put anything mandatory in. However, there is provision in the regulations for cases of a significant disease outbreak where it can be demonstrated that the farmer put no effort into biosecurity. There is a provision for that. It is very much the carrot over the stick, however. That is why we provide the funding for the biosecurity assessment in which farmers can receive advice.

We mentioned that if bluetongue comes in, there will be an added cost for, say, live exports in order to meet the animal health certificate. When it comes to biosecurity, prevention is better than cure. I do not think that we will be putting extra costs on. It is sometimes hard because by putting in biosecurity, farmers might get better efficiency. They will have healthier animals and they might get to the factory earlier. It is, therefore, hard to put cost on it. Teagasc looks at that sort of advice. It is about prevention being better than cure.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

We view it as preventing losses. Of course, from the personal point of view, people are saying that this is another hoop they have to jump through. It is actually to prevent losses from an outbreak of animal disease or plant or forestry disease. For instance, Dr. Hobson and I, in practice as farm animal vets, have dealt with many disease outbreaks where the person said, “If only we could have stopped this”. A lot of this, as Dr. Hobson said, is informing people on the things they can do. They may involve a little bit extra hassle and work but they will make it much less likely that people will have an outbreak of a disease that caused them grief in the past or could cause them grief in the future. It is about averting those losses. That is why communication is such a central element of it. It is a hard message for anybody in that we are saying to people that they will not see the benefit because they will never know the disease they did not have. They will never see that last year they did not have an outbreak of disease that cost them a lot of money.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is maybe something like bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD. We are doing BVD prevention at home the whole time. We still carry that out although we have never had it. That is neither here nor there, though, so we are doing it.

When there is a huge outbreak of TB, it is the worst thing possible that can happen to any farmer, especially from a mental point of view, as has been alluded to. A farmer could have been going out 30, 40, 50 or 60 years doing the same thing every day and then he or she goes out some morning and there is no animal or movement in the yard. There is no calf born or anything like that. That is probably the most difficult thing that can happen to any individual.

Who makes the decision to cull or vaccinate the badger or whatever? That is the question I am asked the whole time. Is it the Department that makes that decision?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

First, badgers are a protected species. It is illegal to cull them other than in very specific circumstances. The Department has a licence, issued by the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which provides that it can do in the event of a serious outbreak of TB in cattle that can be attributed to badgers. This must be after the epidemiological investigation, however. It cannot automatically be determined to be the case. A proper investigation must be carried out to determine that it was not brought in or residual but, rather, can be attributed to badgers. It is in those specific circumstances. It is the Department’s veterinarian who carries out the epidemiological investigation on the specific herd. It is not an automatic thing. The Deputy probably knows, from talking to his constituents, that it is a very detailed process to determine how TB came in - whether it was through cattle that were bought in or whether it is residual or attributable to wildlife.

If it is concluded that it is attributed to badgers based on the evidence, then badger culling can be carried out in that area. That is irrespective of whether it is a vaccine area or a culling area.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have two more questions. First, how much of an input does the veterinary surgeon have on that? Do they talk to the Department and give their opinion? Second, when a person has a breakdown, it might be decided to cull the entire herd. I have known situations where vets have said they could not understand why it was decided to take everything. Who makes that decision? If I have a breakdown, who makes the final decision to take every animal I have off the farm?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I will start with the second question on whole-herd culling. That is quite rare. It is rare with TB that it is required to cull the whole herd. It is an unusual event. We have a few cases per year. I do not have the numbers, but I know from memory it is a low number compared with the overall breakdowns we do. It is based on the case made by the veterinary inspector and the local superintending veterinary inspector. It is not something arrived at quickly. First, it is only considered where over a third of the cattle in that herd have been culled due to TB. If more than half of the cattle in the herd have been culled due to TB, they lean towards it. There is a discussion with the farmer. It can be sensitive either way. Some people will feel strongly that it is not so bad, and depopulation is the only way out. Other people will feel opposed to depopulation, both for equally valid reasons. It is based on looking at the specific epidemiology of that disease outbreak. Every TB outbreak is different. It has a different history and a different pattern.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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If the farmer and the vet do not want it to happen, does the superintending veterinary surgeon in the area have the ultimate say?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

No.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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He overrules those two people.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

No.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is the question I am asking.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I would not characterise it as people being overruled. I would say the Department vets would consult and discuss it themselves. An epidemiological investigation is carried out. There is discussion in the office. There are often a number of meetings and visits in consideration of the history. There may be laboratory results. There may be whole genome sequencing. They will be looking at the epidemiology picture in that locality. It is arrived at in that way.

The Deputy also asked about the role of veterinary practitioners when it comes to TB. They have a crucial role and a difficult job on TB.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I remember that it is challenging doing the tests, breaking what can be terrible news to somebody and then providing that advice. That is why we talked earlier about the Animal Health Ireland TB targeted advisory animal support visits. We did 1,422 of those last year, which was twice the total number carried out in the previous three years. There is huge uptake of that because farmers and private veterinary practitioners are now really interested in receiving this training and carrying out these visits. There are very few schemes where in one year you get more than in the previous three years combined. That shows the interest in involving veterinary practitioners from practitioners, farmers and the Department. You have more and more of that discussion, but it is a tough job.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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In 1968 there were only 40 herds in Ireland with TB. I just looked it up over Christmas. Imagine that.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am making the point that in 1968 there were only 40 herds. They had us all out at 40 herds. Animal Health Ireland gave a talk on it.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to get the chance to come back in. Before I forget, I thank the witnesses for coming in. I will continue on TB. The witnesses seem to say that there has been a drop. Can they attribute that drop to Kerry? Have they any recollection whether Kerry is going up or down? Around me and my local area, which expands a lot, it seems to be rampant.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I apologise, I do not have those figures. Biosecurity is a broad area. I do not have specific figures on each disease for each county. Maybe we can provide that through the clerk. If this were a TB-specific meeting, I would have all of that information but I do not and I apologise. We will get back with the Kerry TB figures.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I appreciate that.

Dr. Avril Hobson:

We had better do all of the county.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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There have been many mentions of people buying cattle as one of the ways. I agree with that. In many instances, farmers around me who have gone down around have dairy herds. One suckler herd had this, and they never bought in any animal at all. They are always selling and breeding their own. We cannot understand that. The feeling now is that it is the badger and the deer. Is there any other way? We are blaming the deer and the badger very much.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I cannot comment on a specific case because I do not know about it, but the Deputy is right. What I found, having worked in it for years, is that each TB breakdown is different in terms of the disease and the impact on the farm, the farm family and the locality. We cannot say TB is spread via inward movement of infected cattle. Sometimes that happens and sometimes it does not. It can be residual infection. In other words, it could be in the old cow that was there when the breakdown happened ten years ago and survived. In the same way, you sometimes hear about humans who get latent TB as a child, and then decades later they become diseased with it. That can happen with cattle. Occasionally you have a residual breakdown where the herd may have had TB years ago.

The other big way, as the Deputy has highlighted, is via wildlife, principally badgers. What can be tricky is that sometimes it can be all three in a very tangled mish-mash. I am not saying it about the herd mentioned by the Deputy, but for the sake of argument you could have a herd where some cattle were bought at a mart by a farmer who did not know they came from a herd that was just de-restricted. They then have a breakdown. Badgers get infected from cattle, and cattle get infected from badgers. Those cattle may infect local badgers. The badgers then pass it on to the next herd over, and several years later that herd has a residual breakdown. You have this very intricate linking of routes. If somebody asks me to tell them whether it was bought in, it was residual or it was badgers, often the answer is that there is a range of these factors and you cannot pull out one. I do not know about that hard, but perhaps there was TB in the area. Perhaps it was via badgers. Perhaps somebody had a residual infection. Perhaps it was bought in.

This is why one of the really useful tools we use now is whole genome sequencing. After the Covid pandemic we are all experts in whole genome sequencing. Everybody knows all about that. That is carried out by the Department. We have carried out a lot of that for several years. It does not work in every outbreak because you cannot grow enough bacteria from every outbreak, but where you can, it can be useful if you can say that for a particular strain of TB, the closest example of that strain is 100 km away. It could also be that the closest example of that strain was identified in a badger last year or was identified in that particular herd six years ago. Sometimes, you cannot get that answer, but it shows that it is a complex epidemiology. That is why I am always at pains to say to people that it is not one thing, and we cannot say "if only we knocked out one thing with TB".

The other thing is biosecurity. Sharing equipment or contract rearing is an issue, where you send out the calves to be reared, especially if it is a dairy herd. Contract rearing of course maximises your grass and your milking platform. The risk is that when you send out your extremely expensive and valuable heifers and they come back a year and a half later, you may not know and the contract rearer may not know that they have been exposed to TB and are bringing it back in. There is a range of ways in which it can happen. The thing to do is not pick one of them, but to look at all of these possibilities and ask if we can address all these risks. That is what our new TB action plan will attempt to do. Of course nothing will happen without the work and commitment of the farmers and veterinary practitioners in the industry. That is why it is important, and we are keen to work together on that. Of course that is what biosecurity is all about.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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On Lyme disease, is it right that it develops or spreads from under rotten timber? We have a lot of decaying timber. Is that the way Lyme disease develops?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

I do not have a detailed briefing on Lyme disease. I would be hesitant to work off what I remember on it. Perhaps Mr. Delany or Dr. Hobson has specific knowledge on that.

Mr. Barry Delany:

In grassland areas, it is something that people have to be aware of.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If they need to, they can send it on.

Mr. Barry Delany:

We do training for operators and people who are in fields. If you are walking through forests or grassland in particular, you can get the ticks and the bites.

I am not sure if it is specifically associated with that. There are many other sources of it but we collaborate with the agricultural consultants to make them aware of the issues that may be there. We can share that with the group as well and address some of the issues that the Deputy has raised.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is very prevalent in areas like the national park in Killarney. It is forbidden to take any timber out of the park, whether fallen or otherwise but it is very prevalent. People get Lyme disease and it is very hard to get a cure for it. It is not even accepted as a disease here in Ireland. No GP will confirm that a person has Lyme disease. People have to go to Germany or America for treatment. It has hurt many people and changed their lives completely. Young mothers and even young children are getting it. I ask that any information that is available on it would be sent on to the committee.

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It is important to highlight that Lyme disease may be more of an issue for the Department of Health or our HSE colleagues. We can share the guidance for foresters but things like Lyme disease and human infections like it are not our area of expertise. Beyond the guidance for foresters, we probably would not be able to provide information on that. It is more on the human side. It is important to say that we will not go outside our remit and start advising on it. As much as people joke that death could be the doctor, we might get into a bit of trouble.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We can raise it with the Department of Health.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Were the witnesses animal vets at one time? Were they practising animal veterinary medicine?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Yes, that is correct.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Do they have a handier job now than when they were out doing that?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Cathaoirleach, is that question allowed?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Can I just take this opportunity, in talking about people-----

Dr. Avril Hobson:

We are both married to vets so we see both sides.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I just want to say, on Christmas night last a vet had to go out and do a c-section. I am just making the point that it is a hard job. I know vets have days off now but older vets probably never got a day off. It is 24-7, 365 days and vets are there to tend to sick animals. They do a great job, in fairness.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is nearly easier to get a vet than it is to get a doctor.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As there are no other questions from the floor, I will ask one or two before we finish. To go back to bluetongue, it has been identified in County Down. What is the capacity to vaccinate ahead of it arriving here? A vaccine is approved but what capacity is there to go ahead and administer it to sheep and cattle? Is it realistic to suggest that it could be done between now and the summer? What would be involved?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

Bluetongue vaccination is not something that is going to be done by the Department. It is has been authorised by the Department but if cattle or sheep farmers want to vaccinate, they should contact their veterinary practitioner, have a discussion with them and order the vaccine if they so wish. That application can go in and be approved and that is already happening. We have applications in from wholesalers and veterinary practitioners already. As I said earlier, we have been talking about bluetongue for many years, but particularly intensively for the last two years since bluetongue 3 kicked off in November 2023. We engaged again with the companies that manufacture the bluetongue vaccine recently and have been assured that they do not anticipate a supply issue. It is a commercial matter for wholesalers and veterinary practitioners to order in the vaccine and get it for their clients. We do not anticipate supply issues. We are in regular contact with the manufacturers of these vaccines and have been for a long time. We feel confident, based on those conversations, that there will be supply sufficient to the demand. For farmers-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Aside from the supply, are there enough people to actually inject the vaccine?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It would be the farmer-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the capacity there? Is that something that a vet does or would it be done by farmers?

Dr. Eoin Ryan:

It will be done by the farmer so there is no capacity issue in that context. If we required that only vets administered the vaccine then, of course, there would be an issue because there are only so many vets in the country and they already have jobs. It is a vaccine for which the vet applies for a licence. He or she then records the herd or flock number and says who it is for. Then the vet provides the vaccine, once authorisation is given, to the farmer. The farmer can then vaccinate the cattle or sheep as he or she wishes. That is the method by which it would be done.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will return briefly to an earlier question on the NPWS and the hornet. Do the witnesses have responsibility for all of biosecurity? Why is there another group involved? Where do the lines get drawn? Is there any confusion or any grey areas in terms of the different groups and their responsibilities?

Mr. Barry Delany:

I am not directly involved-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly the hornet relates to bees, fruit production and food.

Mr. Barry Delany:

Maybe we could come back to the Cathaoirleach on that because it does not impact us directly. We have other colleagues who work on the plant health side and horticulture and they would lead on bee health. They interact very closely with our NPWS colleagues. It is a little bit beyond the remit of those of us who are here today but we can certainly clarify it and revert back to the Cathaoirleach on it. I will talk to the chief plant health officer, clarify it and get back to the Cathaoirleach.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There were also some questions from other members that witnesses did not get the opportunity to answer clearly. I ask the witnesses to write to the committee with those answers in the weeks ahead. The transcript of the meeting will be available online.

It was mentioned that there was an opportunity to bring vets onto farms to give advice on biosecurity. What level of biosecurity training do people already have? Is it part of courses at agricultural college? Is it being communicated through the different knowledge transfer groups, farm walks and so on? Is it all informal?

Dr. Avril Hobson:

Part of the strategy involves looking at ways to disseminate information. What we would be looking at there would be things like going through schools and universities. We would see farm walks as being really important. Behavioural scientists tell us that farmers tend to take advice from their peers and then from their own vets. The Department would probably not be the first place they would go to seek advice. We use behavioural science to inform us on finding ways to get the message out. We view peer-to-peer or farmer-to-farmer learning as very important. Also important are the Teagasc advisors, the knowledge transfer programme and speaking about biosecurity through that. It is about farmers looking at what they do, what has worked for them and sharing knowledge like that.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As there are no further questions, we will finish now. Go raibh maith agaibh as an eolas agus an phlé go léir. This has been a wide-ranging discussion and we really appreciate the engagement of the witnesses.