Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 10 December 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Policy, Governance and Administration: RTÉ
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have received apologies from Deputy O'Sullivan. Today's meeting with members of RTÉ's leadership team and other representatives from RTÉ will consider matters relating to policy, governance and administration at RTÉ. I welcome the following witnesses to committee room 1: Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, RTÉ director general; Mr. Adrian Lynch, deputy director general and director of audiences, channels and marketing; Ms Deirdre McCarthy, managing director of news and current affairs; Ms Eimear Cusack, director of human resources; Ms Patricia Monahan, director of audio; Mr. Steve Carson, director of video; Mr. Gavin Deans, commercial director; Ms Mari Hurley, chief financial officer; and Ms Eleanor O'Shaughnessy, chief risk and compliance officer.
I will invite witnesses to deliver an opening statement which is limited to five minutes. This will then be followed by questions from members. The committee will publish the opening statement on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we move to today's discussion, I would like to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I now invite Mr. Bakhurst to make an opening statement.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to attend this afternoon.
RTÉ has made strong progress in implementing its new direction strategy. We are on a firm financial footing, having reported a surplus of €5.3 million for 2024 compared to a deficit of €10.3 million in 2023. We will deliver a larger surplus in 2025. We are also aiming to deliver a third surplus in 2026. This year marked the first year of the multi-annual funding settlement. The certainty this provides is important. It has allowed RTÉ to plan, to commit to large-scale projects and investments and to focus on our core mission, which is delivering essential public service content, supporting Ireland’s creative sector and evolving our services for Ireland’s digital future. For clarity, we have not asked for any extra funding for this period and we will not be doing so.
The balancing of in-house production and external commissioning is a key part of the strategy, as is the commitment to reducing our workforce by up to 400 people over the next five years. This will be phased and achieved through work practice reform, role suppression and voluntary exit schemes when approved by the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. These schemes are voluntary, which brings challenges in terms of planning but it is an important principle. There was a favourable response to the 2025 scheme, with over 300 applications. Through a combination of the scheme and role suppressions as vacancies and natural retirements occur, which achieve multi-year savings and involve no exit payment outlay, we have made progress toward our overall target. We will apply later in 2026 to run a second exit scheme. Work is under way to explore how we can facilitate applicants who, for various reasons, we could not accommodate in 2025. We have gained insights and we will carry those forward. In all of this we are guided by two priorities, namely, the need to create organisational change and to reduce our overall employment costs at minimal impact to the public. In parallel with targeting this reduction we continue to implement our policy of employment first, address PRSI matters with scope and regularise individuals’ employment status where relevant. This, however, is only one area of focus in our overall strategy implementation. It has been a year of progress and transformation for RTÉ.
Guided by our five-year strategy, we have taken steps to strengthen governance, restore trust, and deliver on our public service remit. We have improved governance and accountability: Over the past year, we have continued to implement the expert committee recommendations, reviewed financial processes and systems and developed a new cultural charter with refreshed organisation values. We have a newly-appointed chief risk and compliance officer and we have developed a new risk policy and charter.
In terms of public service delivery: we have expanded our digital news offering, with a significant follower increase on our social media channels. We have launched a new news podcast. The "RTÉ Investigates" series has generated important outcomes, including the legislative changes introduced on foot of the report on patient experience from "Inside Ireland’s Nursing Homes". We are seeing strong performance in research metrics such as the perceived value of the TV licence, and the personal and societal value of RTÉ. Ouraudio services continue to attract over2 million listeners each week,broadcasting in English and in Irish,and we have completed a substantial review and refresh of our biggest service, RTÉRadio1in line with our commitments in the new direction strategy. In 2025 we backed 142 hours of original homegrown drama production, placing great local drama on the national and international stage. We have offered unrivalled live sports coverage across a diverse range of sports, and with programmes like "The Traitors Ireland" and "The Late Late Show", we have provided moments of escapism that are enjoyed on a multigenerational level. RTÉ invests €25 million annually in Irish-language programming across our services and last year we offered over 10,000 hours of content as Gaeilge, an achievement which has attracted favourable endorsement from the Irish-language community
As confirmed in the most recent Reuters research, RTÉ News, with a 72% trust score, along with local radio, is the most-trusted source of news in the country. We also received strong public endorsement of the position that we took as regards the Eurovision Song Contest. This is a demonstration of values in action and our audience can see it. We have implemented new audio listenership monitoring software which is supporting commercial objectives and better audience insights, and we have continued to invest in the resilience of the RTÉ Player. This year Player streams have surpassed 146 million. In the coming year we will have a new news app and a new audio app.
RTÉ is the largest single investor in the independent creative sector. Latest statements show that our 2024 expenditure with the independent sector was €48.8 million, €1.5 million above our statutory requirement. As my colleague, Mr. Steve Carson, will show later, we plan to increase our spend in the year ahead. This expenditure will generate employment and create sustainability within the sector. We have also just completed our first commissioning round for podcasting as of last Friday and more than 70 production companies from across the island have taken part.
As regards our financial stability, RTÉ has reversed the trend of being in a deficit financial position. Our new commercial strategy is more inclusive of digital revenue targets and is paying dividends. Thanks to highly effective cost management and proper financial planning, we remain on target to report a financial surplus for 2025.
On future funding, the general scheme has been informed by the European Media Freedom Act, which aims to safeguard media freedom, pluralism, and independence. As editorial independence faces growing threats globally, the full implementation of the Act offers Ireland an opportunity to re-affirm its leadership by protecting strong public service media. We welcome that the new legislation envisages a strengthening of the role of Coimisiún na Meán. Rigorous regulation enhances focus on performance standards, reassures the public of value for money and helps to develop sectoral standards. We hope the recommendations of the regulator regarding any future funding settlement will receive consideration and support.
This year has been challenging and rewarding for RTÉ. I acknowledge all who are present, the leadership team, and everyone in RTÉ for their commitment, professionalism and passion for public service media. I also thank our partners in the independent sector. Together, we have achieved a great deal and I look forward to building on this success in 2026.
In 2026, we will mark the 100th anniversary of 2RN, which paved the way for the evolution of RTÉ as Ireland’s national public media service. A century on, we remain true to our ideals. Public service media are at the heart of democracy. That is why all of us in RTÉ show up every day, and it is why, a century on from its founding, RTÉ remains Ireland’s most-trusted media organisation.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We will now have questions with seven minutes each. The first questioner is Deputy Malcolm Byrne.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst and all the witnesses for being here. It is important to put on record that this committee is also deeply committed to supporting public service broadcasting and RTÉ's role in that. As Mr. Bakhurst said, it is critical to democracy and I want to be recorded as having said that, having sat on the media committee in the last Oireachtas and this one and spent a lot of my life dealing with questioning, we are seeing progress, looking at it externally. I compliment a lot of the output that is coming from RTÉ. A lot of the message we are getting from the viewing and listening public is very positive.
There are a number of concerns and the committee's role is to hold RTÉ to account. It is certainly not a case of looking to hollow out RTÉ, particularly given the Government is investing an additional €750 million in RTÉ as a broadcaster. Part of the arrangement was around the voluntary exit package. Mr. Bakhurst mentioned that there were 300 applications. How many voluntary exits have there been this year, as distinct from retirements or people moving on? How many are planned for the second round he envisages for next year?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I thank the Deputy for his comments. I appreciate them.
So far, out of deference to staff, we have not given a running commentary on that, but we are pleased to give the Deputy the numbers he asked for in detail. We had a total 308 applications in the end, after a number who initially applied pulled out. We made 107 offers. We have had 65 acceptances of those voluntary exit offers for either severance or retirement and three offers are outstanding, so the acceptance rate was approximately 63% of the offers made. On top of that, it is important not just to focus on the voluntary exit scheme. As part of the up to 400 figure, we have always clearly said we were looking at retirements and resignations and suppressing those roles. In many ways, that is the most important way in which to save costs, because when people retire or resign, we do not have to pay them to go. No public money is spent on them going, but we make savings if we suppress the roles.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Can I-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Can I just finish the numbers? This year, we had around 30 resignations or retirements where we have suppressed the roles and those have delivered a significant saving. Overall, the numbers together are in the high 90s so we are still hopeful of 100 exits this year from RTÉ, because other contracts are coming to an end and so on. Therefore, we are on course to deliver what we said we would deliver.
The whole point of becoming a smaller organisation is to deliver financial savings. To finish on the numbers, the savings from those voluntary exits so far is €6.2 million per annum so over a five year strategy, that is around €30 million. The savings from the suppressions so far will be €2.4 million per annum so that is more than €10 million more over the five year strategy. The Deputy will see the significant savings over the course of the strategy from the exits and that is the point. It is not about hollowing out the organisation; it is about preserving a strong public service media organisation that is financially sustainable into the future.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of projections is RTÉ looking at for next year? Are there particular reasons that people who applied for the voluntary exit package did not take it up?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is hard to say. There are a number of reasons. We have done exit interviews with the people who took it up, so we got good insights into the organisation from them. There is a variety of reasons for which people are not taking it up. Sometimes when people stare down the decision, they decide it is not right for them, which is fair enough. This is voluntary. That is one of the issues in trying to deliver it. It is fair to say, some people apply without a real intention of going. I was told that by one or two individuals we made an offer to. It is extremely unfortunate, because every one of the 107 offers took an incredible amount of work and it has been an extremely rigorous process for each of the individuals so if people apply and are not serious, that is unfortunate. However, it is voluntary and, in the end, until people sign on the dotted line, they do not have to accept an offer.
The Deputy asked about plans for next year. As I have already said to Department officials and previously, we will need more than one exit scheme over the period of the strategy. We will probably come back to ask for another voluntary exit scheme to open, probably from the middle of the year and much about the target for 2026 will depend on whether we get that voluntary exit scheme agreed and the terms of it. Some of the terms of this exit scheme as regards the amount of savings from people leaving, which was 100%, actually stopped us from letting 30 to 40 people go. We have already discussed with the Department having a little more flexibility around the savings achieved, because over five years we will still make a substantial saving.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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As I am conscious of time, I might throw two questions together. On the review and recommendations on culture and governance in the organisation, in May 2024 there were 116 recommendations. That was critical to the funding made available. Will Mr. Bakhurst let us know about progress on those? Have all 116 been implemented or how much has been achieved?
There obviously has been an improvement in governance in RTÉ. Looking across the water to the BBC and some of the issues that arose there, I have full confidence in Mr. Bakhurst remaining as director general. Is he happy to say he intends to remain as director general and that there is no temptation to apply for the BBC job?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Even if he offered Mr. Bakhurst a car.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It was about the 116 recommendations on culture and governance.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are making good progress on those. We are up to more than two thirds of them. We were able to implement a number of them quite quickly. For a significant number, we were waiting on the arrival of Ms O'Shaughnessy, our chief risk and compliance officer, to drive them through. She has been working closely on making sure we implement them, so I wonder if I could bring her in on where we are on the expert advisory committee, EAC, report.
Ms Eleanor O'Shaughnessy:
To echo Mr. Bakhurst's comments, a good chunk of progress has been made to date. At the moment, I am focusing on understanding what we need to deliver next year and the resources required to be able to do that. It is an area in RTÉ that has been underinvested in. We are all aware of that. The plans to deliver that are in progress at the moment for next year and the audit and risk committee is working closely with me on that.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Can I assume that if RTÉ comes back to the committee, that by the end of next year all 116 recommendations will have been implemented?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Having come on board, has Ms O'Shaughnessy noticed that change happening?
Ms Eleanor O'Shaughnessy:
I am only in since August but yes, starting with our audit and risk committee. That committee really sets the tone within RTÉ, as well as the leadership team working closely with them in terms of building out what we need to do. The year 2026 is where a lot of that effort will be in terms of that cascade down.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Of the 116 recommendations, if Ms O'Shaughnessy were to tell us how far we have got, are we 50% or 60% of the way?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will start with the Eurovision. We all know Ireland will not participate in it. We now know RTÉ has taken steps not to broadcast it after the EBU confirmed Israel could take part. I commend RTÉ. It was a brave decision. It is an important step, reminiscent of the ten workers who changed the world if you look back at the Dunnes Stores ladies who started the anti-apartheid strike, which eventually led to the Irish Government taking concrete steps to boycott apartheid South Africa. It was a brave decision. I note that RTÉ has mentioned in its opening statement that it received strong public endorsement of the position it took and that it was a demonstration of values in action. Is that what prompted RTÉ to make this decision? What was the instigator in moving this way forward?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The instigator in the end was the numbers we set out in the statement. We felt as an organisation, having witnessed the civilian casualties over the past year, that we did not think it was right that we took part in this with Israel being part of it. The second thing was there were over 200 journalists who were deliberately targeted and killed in Gaza. If you do not stand for freedom of the media and for journalists' rights globally as a news provider, that is challenging. They are still not allowing international journalists into Gaza. It was a combination of all those things. I was in Geneva last week. There were quite robust discussions about it. The leadership team was 100% united on the decision, as were those people involved in the Eurovision at RTÉ. We had full backing from the board, which was fully informed. It said it was our decision but it fully supported the decision. Unlike some other European countries that I have heard from, the Government behaved entirely appropriately and I hope we did too. It is a matter for RTÉ because it is a matter for the broadcaster. They would want to be kept informed, which I assumed they would want to be. We kept them informed throughout the earlier decision and then the confirmation of it. It was properly handled as an organisation. As I say, we all saw the opinion poll in the Sunday Independent as well. The public response has reflected that opinion poll.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is why I thought it was important to start with noting that. I have a couple of questions as well. In relation to cuts, RTÉ has cut the documentary section. I believe there will be no more RTÉ documentaries. I might let Mr. Bakhurst come in on that in a second. RTÉ is cutting staff numbers in news and current affairs at a time where Coimisiún na Meán is saying that RTÉ needs more money for the public sector mandate. Was a cost-benefit analysis done in both areas in particular? Who has asked for those specific cuts in that section? Who made the decisions?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We as a leadership team made the decisions. I will take those two things. It is important to say that the vast majority of our documentaries in recent years have been made by our partners in the independent sector. We only made nine hours in the past year. We commission and work closely with them. In fact, some of the most challenging documentaries in recent years have been made by the independent sector with proper oversight from the RTÉ commissioners. We said we would be a smaller organisation. You can only be smaller if you let some people go. You have to strategically decide which are the areas where we can move more work out into the independent sector and which are the areas we are going to continue doing fully in-house.
The Deputy asked about news and current affairs. We have said in the strategy, and we are committed to this, that news and current affairs will be made in-house by RTÉ. Under the voluntary exit scheme there were a significant number of applicants from news and current affairs. While we stopped our front and suppressed those roles, we were unable to let many people go from news and current affairs this year. It is a core part of our remit. We take it extremely seriously. The maintenance of editorial standards is key to our reputation and of key importance to the audience. We are not going to jeopardise that. We will have to look at news in the years to come. No one is immune from downsizing in RTÉ, but news and current affairs will remain in-house. It is more of a challenge in that area. We are going to start to look at other changes we might need to make to enable a few more people to go from news and current affairs.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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: I will pick up on a point Mr. Bakhurst mentioned there. There was a huge number of applications from news and current affairs. Does Mr. Bakhurst know what percentage of the 308 applications he got?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Just to clarify, 59 were from news and current affairs.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sticking with the voluntary exit scheme, those taking RTÉ up on that scheme are not being made redundant, they are leaving voluntarily. Are there terms and conditions in receiving the exit package such as dropping claims for bogus self-employment? That is what I am trying to tease out. Are people who lost huge amounts in pay entitlements over the years seeking to avail of this? Are there are no conditions?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There are no conditions like that. Anyone in the organisation is eligible to apply. Clearly there are some people who we have dealt with past issues about employment status. Some of them have applied. There has been no discrimination and no gateway in stopping anyone applying for it.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is not written into the contracts in any way, shape or form that they would have to drop any of those cases.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am running out of time. Mr. Bakhurst spoke about public trust in his opening statement. I know it is something that is top of his agenda. He referenced a 72% trust score with Reuters research. Coimisiún na Meán has appeared before this committee a lot in recent times. Its review states that there is a growing and concerning disconnect between RTÉ and its audience. How does it plan to tackle that if it is so focused on rebuilding public trust but at the same time, the public are moving away?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I should be clear. The trust score I gave the Deputy is for news and current affairs, which is obviously critical. Trust in the organisation itself is significantly lower and took a battering during 2023. That is nearer to 50% to 55%. We monitor a whole range of the audience views of RTÉ every quarter and we get briefed on it. It is one of our objectives to rebuild that trust score in the organisation. There is only a number of ways you can do that. One way is to demonstrate year in, year out, that we are running the organisation properly, that we are running it in a financially prudent way, that we are spending licence fee payers' money correctly and that there is transparency. The other thing is to make sure that we continue delivering for audiences, whether it is the toy show, "The Traitors Ireland", or daily news and current affairs or investigative journalism or live sport. It is constantly to be delivering content the audiences love and appreciate, which enhances their life and helps strengthen democracy.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst believe there is a role that this committee or this Dáil can help with in rebuilding that trust between RTÉ and the public?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I hope so. To be fair, some of the previous committee hearings have been testing for us because we had a lot of questions to answer. Frankly, the opportunity to come here and answer the questions in public on the record in public is a good opportunity to try to demonstrate that there has been real change.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is huge interest in what is happening in RTÉ because of the amount of taxpayers' money, being invested. The Minister, Deputy O'Donovan and the previous Minister have committed almost three quarters of a billion euro. That is why we need answers. I will start with redundancies. Based on the figures I have, we have approximately 1,850 people working in RTÉ. If you cut down to how many people with whom you have agreed in respect of redundancy, it is only 67. That is probably acceptable this year but why are there so few agreements? My concern would be next year. If they are the ones that wanted it, how can you not get into agreement? I am aware of the circumstance that they have to be over 55 and have two years' service. I am fully aware of that. On that question, what is the ratio of management to those on the ground in that 67 people?
There are two questions.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There are. It is really important that we focus not just on the voluntary exit programme, VEP, number but also on the role suppressions number. For every single VEP, there is an average cost of around €100,000. When we suppress a role because of resignation, there is zero cost to the taxpayer or RTÉ. That is a very efficient way of bringing down numbers. Therefore, it is important to focus on both numbers. The VEP number is important but so too is the role suppressions number.
To be clear, we had a window of only six to seven months this year because of the delay in allowing us to do the VEP. The fact that we did not have a full year was a factor. It is a very labour-intensive process to allow people the opportunity to leave.
Second, while the scheme was the one we ran previously, some of the terms presented big challenges in allowing some of the people to go. For example, where a very senior person wants to go, we are not allowed to move someone who is a little more junior across to take on that person’s role and, in doing so, suppress the junior person’s role. It would save the organisation a significant amount in the long run but we had to achieve a 100% saving on the senior person’s salary. If we could slightly adjust the scheme to make the saving 75% or whatever, it would still deliver significant savings over five years. There were probably 30 or 40 people we could have allowed to go this year if we had had slightly more flexibility in the terms of the scheme. That was part of it.
Let me refer to another part. We are moving some programming from RTÉ to the independent sector. That includes documentaries and religious services and there is more to follow. Some of the programmes are to move out only in the spring of next year, so we have to retain the people needed to produce them in the early part of next year. There are applications. If the programmes had stopped straight away – we cannot achieve this until the independents start making them – we would have let more people go. We remain confident that we will get to around 400 over the five years of the strategy. We are being pushed hard by the board on this. We started with 100 in the first year of the strategy, with a window of only six months.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Considering both of those answers, I have two more questions. First, are people being taken on? From what I have heard, RTÉ has doubled the number of people working in the division of video and audio management.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Did RTÉ advertise for the position?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The second person coming into the video–audio division.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Were the positions advertised openly?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, the people who were successful-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Okay. The person who got it was a partner of a senior journalist within RTÉ.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am just asking the question.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Given the voluntary redundancies, what is Mr. Bakhurst’s opinion on morale in RTÉ?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We know from the staff survey that it is patchy around the organisation. There are some areas where it is good and some where it is very poor. That is why we did the staff survey last year. We said to staff that we would have either an action plan from it to address morale in some areas – a lot of work has been going on regarding this – or, on the completion of the survey-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With respect, Mr. Bakhurst said morale is patchy. I have a copy of the report. It states that in response to the statement “The leadership at RTÉ have communicated a vision that motivates me”, 0% were in favour.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In response to the statement that leaders can be relied on to keep their promises-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is it in the public domain?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is available to everybody.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Can a copy be given to the committee?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst feel it is damning?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There are areas that are damning. We said that to staff. We are very open. We published the findings warts and all. There are some areas that are really good and some where there is a huge amount of work to be done. That is why we did the survey. I have talked about more transparency. It would have been easy not to publish some of the survey results but we have published all of them, warts and all. We have been very open about some of the areas that we need to address. There are certainly some areas regarding confidence and trust in the leadership team and so on. There has been a lot of damage done over the past few years by actions of previous executives and it takes a long time to rebuild the trust of people who work with RTÉ.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The production of programmes such as religious programmes and the Claire Byrne programme is being moved out or stepped down. What is the position on “Fair City”? Is its production part of the long-term plans of RTÉ, or is it going to be subcontracted? I am hearing stories that, for the World Cup next year, “Fair City” will be set aside for two months.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am hearing it from the staff on the ground.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The Deputy needs to get more reliable sources, to be honest. On “Fair City”, we have been very clear that we are going to go to the independent sector next year and ask for expressions of interest. We have some work to do before then on the logistics we would expect from that sector. By spring, we will approaching the sector. We have made it clear all along that in due course, “Fair City” will be produced by the independent sector, or certainly produced outside Donnybrook.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is exactly what I was asking about. My source was looking for clarification on that.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will “Fair City” be set aside because there will not be enough crew to work on both it and the World Cup?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have got to look at how many people we have. That is not the plan at the moment.
The other thing is that when you have paid a lot of money for a big tournament like the World Cup, which has over 100 games, there is limited schedule time available. We also have to manage our resources. I am not saying we may not do as the Deputy suggested but it is not in the plans at the moment.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are all very welcome today. I thank them so much for coming back in. I congratulate or commend them on the decision made to boycott the Eurovision Song Contest. I really do believe this was an important and brave step for RTÉ to take. I thank it for that. I also thank the witnesses for the work they are doing on addressing some of the organisation’s legacy issues around cost and governance. However, my concern is the balance between those pursuits and the pursuit of maintaining the integrity of our public service broadcaster. That is what I would really like to focus on in my time today. The balance is not being achieved based on the vision I want to see for the retention of our public service broadcaster.
One of the witnesses we had before us helped us to understand, as a committee, that what the media sector calls “independent” is in every other sector called “commercial” or “private”. Mr. Bakhurst has used the word independent repeatedly today but it is important for the public listening and us as committee members to remember that when we talk about independent providers, we are talking about commercial providers, commercial bodies and companies. That is a crucial distinction. They do not serve a public interest mandate; they serve their shareholders. That is a crucial distinction because so much of our media is now owned by commercial actors that are, let us face it, headquartered outside the State. RTÉ remains the only body that has a public service mandate. I am concerned about the hollowing out referred to by Deputy Byrne. He made it very clear that he does not agree with it. I believe he was referring to the statement, released by a large group of academics, that we all read this morning. Let me give Mr. Bakhurst a chance to respond to that statement first. When he does, I would love to get into a little more detail. What did Mr. Bakhurst think of the statement put out by Dr. Culloty and her colleagues?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
To be honest, those are words I have heard from one or two people internally who do not agree that RTÉ should be a smaller and more efficient organisation. They believe we should continue doing everything in the same way, with the same number of people and just going back and asking the Government for more money every year. That is not sustainable for public service media. We are all here because we believe in the value of public service media and public service broadcasting.
What we are trying to do is ensure a sustainable future for public service media. The focus throughout has been on our core public service remit, as can be seen from the strategy. In it we are committed to the Irish language, news and current affairs, Irish drama and arts and culture. These are the key things we do as a public service broadcaster. What we need to look at is how we do it differently. The way RTÉ has done it has not changed substantially for a number of years. At the end of this process, we will still be a significant public service broadcaster with around 1,400 people, and we will be delivering to audiences on digital products that are much better. We are delivering top-quality content.
On Deputy Gibney's point about the independent sector-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I ask Mr. Bakhurst to wrap up quickly so I can get into some of the detail, please.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that but it helps us and the public to call them "commercial".
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Deputy Gibney is right that they are commercial. They are not there to make a loss. However, what I would say is that part of our role is to be an engine for the Irish creative economy. We have a fantastic sector which, by the way, is very unionised and employs thousands of people across Ireland.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Nobody has any issue with the language but it is very purposeful to say we are funding the creative sector, whereas in the transport sector we say we are outsourcing to commercial providers when we use commercial providers. Just as where there are bus routes which will never be fully honoured by those commercial providers because they serve too small a population, there are sectors of public service broadcasting that are never going to be fulfilled by commercial providers.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I would argue that some of the ones being outsourced right now, such as the documentary unit, religious services and youth programming, are exactly that. My next question is-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Can I please put a question to Mr. Bakhurst first? What is next? Mr. Bakhurst mentioned earlier there is more coming. Please will he outline for us what is next? I have an additional question. Is it Mr. Bakhurst's vision as director general that RTÉ will remain a news and current affairs provider with everything else outsourced to the commercial sector?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The answer to the last question is "No". Radio, sport, news and current affairs will all remain in-house. We will still produce thousands of hours of live content every year. With regard to what is next, we have already publicly spoken about "Fair City" and "The Late Late Show". We are doing feasibility on these.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Is there anything else on the list that has not been spoken about publicly?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst share them with us today?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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When RTÉ is doing the cost saving-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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No, I think we are in a conversation. When Mr. Bakhurst says these are cost-saving efforts I appreciate that but where can we see, for example, that sacrificing the documentary unit is cost saving? It is not just about the number of people who are leaving. It is also about the costs accrued in outsourcing the work to the commercial sector and everything that comes with that. What we cannot quantify in monetary terms is the public interest loss. Is that mapped out anywhere?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is. It is constantly discussed by us and by the board. As 50% of RTÉ's spend every year is on staff, if we are going to cut the long-term cost to the organisation and cut overheads, this is the area we have to go after. To come back to a couple of the examples that Deputy Gibney has given, religious programmes and religious services are going out. The Sunday studio programme has not changed for decades. It is not a brilliant programme and it is not great for audiences.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It is for those people who hold it dear. This is my exact point. It is public service.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Sorry, I have not finished yet. What are we doing? We are enhancing it. We are going out and working with a really good independent company, or commercial company to use Deputy Gibney's phrase, which has a lot of experience in this area. We are using new technology to broadcast from churches around the island of Ireland, live in most cases, every Sunday, so that we can be out reflecting Ireland better, using new technology and working with the independent sector. We will be offering a better service to audiences by doing that than we were offering previously. This is one example.
On the documentary unit, it is really important to say we have produced 72 hours of documentaries this year and nine hours were produced in-house. Next year, we estimate we will produce 75 hours of documentaries working with our partners in the independent sector. In no way are we undermining our commitment. We know Irish audiences love Irish documentaries and we have some very exciting ones coming up early in the new year. We are totally committed to these. It is just a different way of doing it.
In terms of safeguarding the public-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I am out of time and I have one more question. It is to build on Deputy Byrne's point. I am not totally clear from Mr. Bakhurst's answer on whether there is a chance he might be looking to broader frontiers for his career. My question is on the governance of that. Does succession planning for the organisation lie at his level of director general or at the board level?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It lies at both. In fact, I have had discussions with the chair and the board about this as part of my role. I have said to members of the board that, whatever happens, I only have a seven-year term anyway. I am time limited. Whatever happens at any point to me, I am constantly looking at succession planning. If we look around this table, there are several excellent candidates who could be director general if I ever went.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Politicians do not like succession planning.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Some of us do, actually.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Are you getting tired? Is the seat going to be vacant?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am 50 this year.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We might reset the clock as those ten seconds could be important. I welcome all of our witnesses and thank them for taking the time to come into us. There has been a lot of talk about voluntary redundancy and the plan to reduce the workforce by 400 over the next five years. I hear a lot of talk out there about the outsourcing of programmes such as "Fair City" and "The Late Late Show". Mr. Bakhurst mentioned the lotto and perhaps there are other programmes. Where is RTÉ at with this, as it stands right now? As I said, we have heard talk about RTÉ becoming a leaner and fitter organisation, and huge strides have been made on that front. For me, RTÉ is about preserving and protecting the core of public sector broadcasting. Priority has to be given to current affairs and sport, in my opinion. Where are we at with the outsourcing of, for example, "The Late Late Show" and "Fair City"? Mr. Bakhurst mentioned the lotto and perhaps there are others.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I thought Deputy Cleere might mention sport. On "Fair City", we spent this year talking about the logistics and planning of it. There are a number of reasons we need to move it out. One is that we need to reduce our presence in Donnybrook in the long run, and we will not be able to make "Fair City" in Donnybrook in the long run. We will have to make it off site. The second issue we are looking at is how we do that. We have spoken to the unions about this along the way, and with the staff involved, obviously. We are exploring different options about how we do it. We are going to have to make it off site and this leads to questions as to whether it will be made fully by an independent company, whether it will be a hybrid model and whether RTÉ people will work with an independent company. These are all options we will look at but we need to get into a position, which we are going to do by spring next year, in which we have a basic document on what we will be looking for from any independent production company that may want to make the programme, the company's model for it, the costs of doing it and where it would do it. We are doing that work and we will put it out in spring next year to see where the formal expressions of interest are. We know from informal approaches that there are at least seven or eight high-quality independent producers who are very interested in the project.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would they be eligible for the voluntary redundancy?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What about the "The Late Late Show"?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will they be prioritised, considering it is part of the new lean mean-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We cannot let them go until the decision is made about "Fair City". It might be a producer who wants to work with some of them - I do not know. This is why we could never do a one-off voluntary exit. We have to work through "Fair City" and see what the model is. A lot of people in operations in RTÉ work on "Fair City". We have to work it through.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst speak about the outsourcing of products? I would also like to discuss "The Traitors" concept. This was a hugely successful programme throughout the country among young people and old people. Everybody got involved and everybody was sucked into it. Will Mr. Bakhurst speak about RTÉ's role or involvement in it and the costs to RTÉ versus the revenue produced?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I can speak about this and I might bring in Mr. Carson because he was instrumental in it. It is a format owned by an international company. It was bought by an Irish independent producer who came to RTÉ with it two or three years ago. It is a very expensive programme to make. I had a discussion just before Mr. Carson arrived, with his temporary predecessor in the role, on whether we could do it. One of the things that enabled us to make the leap of faith on a very expensive programme such as "The Traitors" was that we were approaching getting multi-annual funding across the line. This enables us to make these big creative bets. When we are living a bit hand to mouth on licence fees coming in it is hard to do that. It is an excellent independent producer and we had good discussions with it. We signed up for a year to see how it went. It did cost a lot of money but it also raised a lot commercially.
Gavin Deans and his team did a fantastic job in selling sponsorship, product placement and advertising around it.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was it a profitable experience or journey from RTÉ's perspective?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to break the confidence of the Cathaoirleach, but he was interested. If there is a "Celebrity Traitors" coming up, he did say perhaps I could put his name forward. I just want to put that on the record.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure if he meets the criterion of celebrity just yet, but in his own head maybe.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Possibly a traitor.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Give me back your 15 seconds.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time, so I will be very quick. It was reported in August that Ryan Tubridy repaid the €150,000 that he received from the barter account. I see he got married last week. Were any of the witnesses invited to the wedding?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I gather it was a small wedding for family and close friends. As was stated in the newspapers a while back, I have met Ryan. The whole episode was incredibly unfortunate. It was more than unfortunate; it was disastrous for RTÉ. It had its implications for Ryan as well. I wanted to meet him to say that there were no hard feelings on the part of RTÉ and that if the right thing came up, there was no impediment to us working with him again in the future. We had a very cordial meeting. We have vaguely remained in touch, but no I was not invited to the wedding.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Not even to the afters.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am very conscious of time. My final question is specifically about Oireachtas TV, which we have here. There were a lot of reports in the media that the current broadcaster of Oireachtas TV is not seeking to extend its contract. In the UK Parliament, the BBC has taken over the contract with its BBC Parliament service. Is Oireachtas TV something that RTÉ would consider taking on?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Funnily enough, we did briefly speak about that. As members will know, however, we are not looking to expand at the moment. Clearly, Oireachtas TV is a really important public service. The Deputy is right about BBC Parliament. We have not been asked by the authorities in the Houses here, but it is really important. If it was a matter of sustaining the survival of that, then of course, as a public service broadcaster, we would be open to talking about it.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The recent Coimisiún na Meán review stated that there is a growing and concerning disconnect between RTÉ and its audience and that the management has not been able to execute the organisational transformation that had been hoped for. Will someone comment on that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On the second bit about delivering the strategy, that was historical and pertained to the previous strategy. I read the Coimisiún na Meán report.
On the connection with the audience, that was one figure I saw highlighted. It is important to state that we monitor really carefully how much the audience thinks RTÉ is an important public service and it value to individuals in the audience. Those numbers are good and improving. Overall across our TV, radio and online services, 90% of the audience use RTÉ at some point every week. We still are connecting with the vast majority of the audience. It is big events like the toy Show, "The Traitors", sport and news and current affairs that connect on a daily basis with a significant part of the audience. We are not complacent about it. We always try to find new ways that we can do it.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst think RTÉ is providing good value for money to the State? For 2027, we are looking at €260 million in taxpayers' money going to one organisation. While we have other independent organisations locally and nationally getting certain amounts of funding through various schemes, that is a significant amount of taxpayers' money. Are we getting value for money?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We obviously think that we are giving value for money. Again, we track audience views about that. The number of people who think they are getting value for their licence fee has increased dramatically in the past 12 months. We are but we have got to constantly demonstrate it to people. I am very aware that there is an absolute rigor put on the organisation, and we are very conscious this is public money, in how we spend it, what we spend it on, and in demonstrating to audiences they are getting value for money, day in and day out. When we ask people for the licence fee, we are talking about Government funding and we are very grateful it is multi-year in nature. Of the €725 million, a significant amount is licence fee payers' money. It comes directly from licence fee payers as opposed to the Government. We have to prove day in and day out to licence fee payers that they are getting value for what they spend. When you think about it, €160 a year is less than the price of a cup of coffee a week. Most people probably get enough value out of RTÉ but not everyone, and we have got to keep trying to do that.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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At the weekend, Ireland Thinks asked a question on this matter and 25% of people said they were not going to pay their licence fee next year. There seems to be an increase in the figure in that regard. That is going to be an issue-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Sorry, just on that, part of the number of people who do not pay their licence fee relates to those who say they do not have TVs in their homes. Both of those numbers have been stubbornly high for a long time. If we take the figure of 25% of the audience who say they are not going to pay the licence fee and add the number of people who do not pay the licence fee, which is about 13% or 14%, plus the 18% who say they are non-TV homes, then that is not entirely surprising.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In his former role as head of news and current affairs, would Mr. Bakhurst have learned of any RTÉ News investigation into bogus self-employment schemes. Was there ever anything done in that regard?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Bakhurst aware of any investigation going to be carried out by RTÉ News into this?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes. When Mr. Bakhurst was there and since then. Was there any investigation-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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-----within the organisation to look at that, even though it is within the organisation? It is something that RTÉ should-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Bakhurst was in his previous role, was there any talk of RTÉ News looking at governance issues within the organisation?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Just to get it cleared up that the RTÉ's News investigative part-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
To be honest, I think the audience saw during the crisis in 2023 and 2024 that we, as an organisation, were held firmly to account by our news and current affairs. I can tell the committee from personal experience that it was painful at times, but it was the right thing for the organisation to do. If those involved with "RTÉ Investigates" are doing an investigation into RTÉ, as far as I am concerned, they should go ahead and do it if there is a story for them to do. They operate in a very editorially independent and robust way. They are perfectly at liberty, and in fact I would encourage them, to challenge RTÉ as they would challenge any other stakeholder.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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A previous speaker mentioned outsourcing. One thing that RTÉ has been excellent at is covering a wide variety of sports. It provides excellent entertainment, despite the controversy with GAAGO when that arose.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ provides a fantastic service. Is there any planned outsourcing of sports coverage?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No. I would just say that the word "outsourcing" is loaded. We are working in partnership with independent companies in the creative sector in Ireland, so we are outsourcing in that regard. In terms of the Deputy's question directly about sport, we already work with outside broadcast independent companies who are part of the team. Part of it is already done by independents, but we have no plans at the moment to do much more than that. I am not saying it will never happen, but there is nothing in the plans at the moment.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Cleere made an excellent comment with regard to the coverage of our Oireachtas committees, which is public service broadcasting. I welcome Mr. Bakhurst's comments that if there was a situation where the proceedings needed to be covered, he would be prepared to have a discussion. This is the one thing. There are people at home who watch what is happening at committee meetings every day. They get a sense of a lot of the work that goes on behind the scenes of being an Oireachtas Member in the context of organisations being grilled, involved in debates and questioned. I welcome the comments Mr. Bakhurst made.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I would reiterate them. that. When I was here previously as deputy director general when the then Director General was off, one of the things I did was to make sure that Oireachtas TV was carried on Saorview, which it had not been up to then. It is a really important part of democracy. If there is a need for it, of course we can have discussions.
Mr. Steve Carson:
I am glad that Deputy Carrigy referred to RTÉ Sport. It is an absolutely fantastic asset to the Irish public as a whole.
The weight of the department is in-house production. We find with continuous production where you are working across TV, radio, online and social together it is better to have an in-house team. There are some parts of the output that involve working with independent supplier, as Mr. Bakhurst mentioned. We are looking at the FAI Cup competition potentially being supplied by an independent producer from next year. However the balance and the weight of that department will remain in-house.
I want to pick up on a previous Deputy's point. “Fair City” is a hugely important programme to us. As the director general said, we are looking at it based on the fact that while we have had great value from our studios for half a century, it is reaching end of life. I think the point about the world cup in the summer is a crossed wire. In a previous year we stood down some “Fair City” production in order to facilitate it. We did a modelling exercise this year to see if we would need to do that next year and pretty quickly ruled it out.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy Ó Snodaigh. I apologise as I should have called him earlier.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is no problem at all once the Cathaoirleach gives me some leeway here. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil ateangairí anseo. Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil Gaeilge ag an dream os mo chomhair ach an oiread. Tá cúpla ceist agam maidir le Raidió na Gaeltachta, TG4 agus an nuacht. Cé mhéad duine atá ar fhoireann Raidió na Gaeltachta anois i gcomparáid le deich mbliana ó shin? Cé mhéad duine atá ag gafa leis na suíomhanna gréasáin RTÉ agus Raidió na Gaeltachta?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It is basically a question on how many are on the team in Raidió na Gaeltachta in comparison with ten years ago. Obviously every part of the organisation has been affected. It has increased its production and its broadcasting hours in that period. How many people work on the RTÉ website and the Raidió na Gaeltachta one?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Bakhurst could. On the website, how many people does RTÉ have?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, on Raidió na Gaeltachta.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Right.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That brings me onto the next ceist. Baineann an cheist mhór seo le seirbhís nuachta TG4 agus an Aire. An bhfuil buairt ar an bhfoireann nuachta maidir leis an gcinneadh atá á ghlacadh ag TG4 a sheomra nuachta féin a bhunú?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The question is this: are people concerned that TG4, with the support of the Minister by the looks of it, is moving towards setting up its own news channel? Will that affect the output of “Nuacht” on RTÉ?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
RTÉ welcomes and supports the Future of Media Commission recommendation in relation to editorial independence for TG4 in respect of its news service. We are in negotiations with TG4. As members all know, we provide the Irish language service for “Nuacht” for RTÉ and also for TG4. They are very positive and constructive negotiations which are ongoing. In fact, I will be back down in Baile na hAbhann tomorrow where the director general of TG4 will address the “Nuacht” staff about where we are at this moment in time. We are working in partnership and we hope to be able to deliver the recommendation for TG4.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will shift to other issues. Earlier this year RTÉ’s human resources IT system was basically being held together by sticky tape. We were told at the time that procurement was going on and then we were told it had concluded. Is the human resources IT system up and running fully or are there still outstanding issues?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No, we have completed the procurement and we have also signed the contract in the last couple of weeks for the new HR system which will be installed in 2026. We are buying the Oracle system which, in our view, is the best system available to the organisation. We agreed with a company called Mastek which did the implementation of it.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will it service and maintain it going forward, which is the biggest-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There is an ongoing contract with Oracle over the years, yes. Part of the cost of it is the annual contract to work with Oracle on it. We are also taking on people temporarily in both finance and our HR team next year so we can carry on current business but also move all the data, information and so on and work with Mastek and Oracle on getting the system up and running next year. The Deputy is right - our current HR system is very old and is held together with sticky tape.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I presume it was challenging when RTÉ was putting together packages and dealing with all of that in relation to who is owed what and so on.
Mr. Bakhurst made a comment that the lottery costs RTÉ money. How does the lottery cost it money? Does it not charge the lottery enough money to host its production?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Whether we charge it enough or not I do not know. At the moment it does pay us to be on RTÉ. We have to run the studio to provide the programme, which has been unchanged for many years. We have been talking to the lottery about doing it a different way, whereby it would still buy the airtime but would provide the programme itself.
Mr. Gavin Deans:
That will start in mid-February next year. We engaged with the national lottery earlier this year and obviously with the regulator as it had to cover that off. As Mr. Bakhurst said, there have not been any changes to the lottery in terms of what it is. There will be a slight change to the time when it will go out and the technology around that. We had to run full crews for much longer than the running time of the show itself. It was the “National Lottery” and also “Telly Bingo”, which serves an older audience. It is not a huge audience but it is a very important audience and we thought it important to maintain that.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have absolutely no problem with it being on the public broadcaster. The only problem with stuff like that, where it relates to a different company, is that the company should pay for the production costs. That is the logic.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think a survey of employees is being carried out or has been carried out. It is a happiness index-type survey to see who is happy and what the problems are. Will that be completed soon? Is it internal or external? Will it be published and will RTÉ be able to share it with us?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is a staff survey.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Senator Noonan.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank the team. I have two content-related questions. I congratulate RTÉ on the progress it has been making to date on the reform of governance, etc.
The first question is on nature and climate programming more generally. The ESRI consistently points out that the big challenge in meeting climate targets, etc., is behavioural change. As the State broadcaster, RTÉ has a significant responsibility in that regard and to date has produced excellent content. We can go back to lots of really good programming, from Éamon de Buitléar right up to “Ear to the Ground”, “Eco Eye”, etc. This is programming that is science-based and well informed and for which there is a public appetite. Related to the issue of programmes being informed by science, it is important there is good scientific advice available to RTÉ, not only to put it in its current affairs but also in commissioning programmes on the environment. That is hugely important. I have been frustrated on several occasions where there has been a climate denier pitted against John Gibbons or someone like that on “Prime Time”. The issue of tackling misinformation and disinformation is hugely important. A natural history unit or a climate unit that could be supported through some other means might be worth considering. I am not sure if RTÉ has given consideration to that.
More generally in commissioning outside programming, it is really important that the content and output is of as consistently high a standard as previous work that has been put out by RTÉ.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I will bring in Mr. Carson and Ms McCarthy on this.
We are very committed to our coverage of climate change, which is increasingly affecting everyone's lives, particularly here, across news and current affairs on TV and radio. Ms McCarthy might want to talk about plans for the news and what is being done in that regard.
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
We have prioritised climate change in our coverage at the planning stages in terms of monthly additional stories we do to focus on specific areas in relation to climate change, for example, the environment or biodiversity. We are very conscious of it. We make sure that questions are asked about climate change in our lines of questioning by our journalists in particular areas, be they business, politics or whatever. It is a huge priority for us as a division.
On the climate unit, it is a really good idea. Ideally, we would love to be in a position where you could have a dedicated team of journalists focusing specifically on climate coverage. That is something for which we would strive. It might not be achievable in the short term because of where we are at as an organisation in reducing our size and the number of people who work for us, but it is certainly something that is there and would be a priority if we had the resources to do it.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Sure. There might be a creative way to look at that to see how it can be supported, given the significant opportunities that will be there in the future.
I wish to ask about arts programming more generally, the quality of programming output and ensuring that, in outsourcing arts programming for radio, TV and online content, there is a consistency in supporting Irish artists, musicians, composers and writers. That needs to extend into the percentage of new Irish music that is broadcast on the airwaves at RTÉ. That is really important, given the challenges the music industry in particular is facing. Incidental music on programming and all of that should not be AI-generated content. There is an opportunity for Irish composers to benefit from content that is commissioned by RTÉ. It needs to be embedded right throughout the system to ensure that Irish visual artists but, more importantly, the music sector feel that they are wanted and included in commissioning work.
Ms Patricia Monahan:
First of all, I love Irish music. Support of the Irish music industry is very important to us. It is a very important pillar of what we do from an audio perspective. We work with composers all of the time. We work with tens of composers, arrangers and songwriters with the orchestra across the year. We also commission works, particularly for Lyric FM. There is a round open at the moment, actually, and we plan to have an open round for composers in the new year as well. Over the course of the last two years, there have been about seven compositions for Lyric FM to the tune of about €25,000. Equally, we commission soundtracks for our "Documentary on One" products. Most of those over the last number of years have been done by Irish composers as well. Obviously, we will continue to work with them.
The Senator may be referring to our recent story about signature tunes on RTÉ Radio 1. What we are doing with RTÉ Radio 1 is developing a full imaging package that will deliver the same sound across the whole station. It is a very specialised area of imaging. It will involve ad breaks, sponsor stings, interstitials and lots of different deliverables. While that may not have been within the reach of some of the composers the Senator is speaking about, we have lots of other avenues. We are keen to continue working with them and are committed to doing so, going forward.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Ms Monahan. I was not really referring specifically to that but I think it is important that Irish artists, musicians and, in particular, composers who are based here feel there is a multiplier effect from the State money that RTÉ spends.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I say that in relation to the content percentage of new Irish music that is put out. I am talking about new acts and artists.
Ms Patricia Monahan:
We have lots of initiatives across the services that feature new Irish music. We have a new Irish music programme on 2FM. We are also involved in the RTÉ Choice Music Prize. There is 2FM Rising, which is looking at new acts all of the time. We are committed to that across Radio 1 as well. In fact, it has been a really important pillar of all of the work we have done in Radio 1 in terms of maintaining arts and music as the centre of part of that service as well.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Bakhurst and all of his colleagues. I thank them for being with us. I am afraid I have to depart from the apparent consensus about the wisdom of what RTÉ did regarding the Eurovision Song Contest. I am all for maximum pressure being put on Israel over illegal settlements and indiscriminate killing in Gaza, including of journalists, but I am not at all sure that RTÉ should be in the vanguard of such very politicised activity. I expect foreign policy from the Government and from legislators. I expect foreign policy proposals from NGOs. I do not expect big, significant decisions that strongly link Ireland in with a particular point of view being taken by a committee of people whose names I do not know and who are not primarily paid to make political decisions.
When I look at the Broadcasting Act - I am not saying there is a direct violation of it - I see references to being responsive to the interests and concerns of the whole community. I see references to have regard to the need for the formation of public awareness and the understanding of the values and traditions of countries other than the State. I hear Mr. Bakhurst referencing widespread public support for the decision. That is when RTÉ should be most nervous. Management of anything by opinion poll is dangerous territory. Should RTÉ have stayed in its lane here? It seems to me to be very paternalistic to go further than withdrawing from the competition and taking it off the airwaves that night. I am grateful for "Midsomer Murders" and "Foyle's War" the night of the Eurovision, but I think it is rather paternalistic. Are Irish people not mature enough to decide what they will watch or not and whether it sticks in their craw sufficiently to turn off if Israel is a participant? I think RTÉ got it all wrong here.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There will be people who think we have made the wrong decision. In the end, we had to make a decision. Participation in the Eurovision Song Contest is a matter for the broadcaster. It is not a matter for governments. That is a really important point. It is an independent competition and it is in the constitution of the European Broadcasting Union, EBU, that it is a matter for the broadcaster to decide whether it takes part. We had to make a decision - were we in or were we out? We have had long discussions with the EBU. There were a range of views expressed in the room in Geneva when I was there. Our considered position is as we have expressed it in the public sphere. Not everyone will agree with it. I appreciate-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is not just a matter of not agreeing with it. Of course, RTÉ has to be independent when it comes to how it spends its money and the reasons it spends its money. I get that, but once RTÉ veers into foreign policy, I do not think it is at all clear-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----that RTÉ should act independently of the State. RTÉ is not just an NGO. It carries Ireland's name and reputation. I actually think this is the wrong judgment call.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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RTÉ had coverage of the World Cup in Qatar. God knows what the Qatari Government does to people in its own country or what it pays for around the world. RTÉ covered the Beijing Olympics and we all know what China does to its Uyghur people, to people in Hong Kong and so on.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is a matter for RTÉ to decide whether it covers it and carries transmission of it. That is my point. RTÉ deviated here. I wonder whether there are some causes that are special.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It seems that there are.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I do not think it is consistent with-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Of course it is, but I think RTÉ should rethink it. I say that with full-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I think RTÉ has undermined the perspective that it is supposed to be impartial in matters around current affairs and politics.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is a statement. I am not asking Mr. Bakhurst for a response.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No, but it is a statement that cannot go unchallenged. It is really important and we touched on this before. The independence, impartiality and accuracy of RTÉ news and current affairs is absolutely paramount. This was a corporate decision by RTÉ. As we have seen before, news and current affairs make their own judgments. They are regulated by Coimisiún na Meán to those standards. We have not had a single complaint upheld about our coverage of Gaza, nor would I expect us to. Those are two separate things and it is not-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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No, they are not-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----because it is a bit like in the courts, in that justice has to be done but it has to be seen to be done. RTÉ has to protect its reputation here and how RTÉ is seen in terms of impartiality. The reference to opinion polls and public support worries me.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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In fact, the reference to journalists being killed worries me. I would much rather RTÉ lobbied the Irish Government to take a strong stance on that rather than taking corporate decisions on behalf of the whole nation about what people watch or may not watch.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is absolutely not true.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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RTÉ is expected to be impartial-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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RTÉ is expected to be impartial in its presentation of issues.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is much more trustworthy when it is. This goes to the whole issue of trust.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Nobody should be impartial about it but RTÉ has corporate decisions to make about what it covers and in a matter that is to do with entertainment, I would expect Mr. Bakhurst to be more careful to be honest, because RTÉ has to represent not just the majority of people who agree with him - and I might agree with him about Israel, and certainly about the killing of journalists but RTÉ did not stay in its lane on this. We will have to agree to disagree on this. It is too easy to decide issues on the basis of what is really popular in the country at the time.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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RTÉ has been well represented, and I hope I have made clear that I share the outrage of what Israel has been doing.
I want to talk about the outside broadcast of masses, if I may. Does the name Oliver Plunkett ring a bell? Yes. RTÉ did a great job on the carrying of that mass from Drogheda. It was a significant occasion marking the 400th anniversary of his death. However, I heard RTÉ was bargaining with people and getting them to raise money towards it. Would that happen in the context of other services? On the last day we spoke, Mr. Bakhurst said that approximately 60,000 tune into the daily mass. He may recall I asked whether there could be some movement towards bringing that to absolute live. I was also wondering whether 60,000 is a large or a small number compared to regular viewership on channel 21? Is there anything Mr. Bakhurst can tell me about that?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Compared to channel 21, is it high or low?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes, but generally.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Average. It is a fairly significant-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Mr. Bakhurst gave the figure of about 60,000. Mr. Bakhurst mentioned an independent company. Is RTÉ in talks with the churches about how this can be delivered?
Mr. Steve Carson:
I am glad the Deputy referenced the Drogheda mass. That was a mixture of funding sources, as he said. RTÉ and the religion team were four-square behind it, and it seems to have been an important event in that community. As we discussed previously, as part of overall strategy in terms of the piece getting smaller but also genuinely focusing on how can we get a better offer for audiences, the new structure of masses and services is to go to churches, congregations and parishes around Ireland, and that is being provided by an excellent independent production company called Scratch Films. That is different to the model that has been there, as Mr. Bakhurst said, for decades, where people would have to come to the studio in RTÉ to broadcast. They would have to come to Dublin.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Does Mr. Carson see this as equivalent, for example, to covering sporting events? I often hear-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If the Senator wants an answer he has to be brief.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Senator Comyn.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Am I out of time? Is there a second round?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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A good bit out of time.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will hold off.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses once again for coming in. I also echo huge gratitude for airing Michael Holohan’s Mass of the Bells in Drogheda, County Louth, for the St. Oliver commemoration. It was a magnificent broadcast. I am not the only one who thinks so. I hope it is not the last that we see.
In the interest of transparency, Mr. Bakhurst and I met last week in a pre-scheduled meeting to get an update. I apologise if I make any double-ups as I missed the start of the meeting. The 400 redundancies is a major part of RTÉ’s cost-saving measures. When we met recently, Mr. Bakhurst mentioned challenges in actually getting people to leave the organisation. It is difficult because there are people who are irreplaceable putting themselves forward, as well as tyre kickers, for want of a better word, who have no intentions of leaving but are just checking out what the redundancy packages are. I ask him to comment on that.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The terms of the exit scheme are extremely robust and we have been very robust in adhering to them. If the organisation lets someone go, it cannot directly replace him or her without suppressing a role. An example I have given often is if a musician in the orchestra applies for it - and we had a couple - we cannot let them go because we cannot do without a trumpeter or whatever. There were some people who applied who we just could not let go because we knew straight away we would pay them to go and then have to bring in someone else replace to them. There was a significant number of those, particularly in news and current affairs where people do a very specific job and we knew we would have to bring in someone to replace them straight away. We cannot do that. It is a very specific skill. There is not someone else necessarily who can move into that role. That was an inhibitor on some of the numbers. The terms of the scheme are really clear on it. We had to stick with that. There were some people, and one or two people have said it to me, who applied to get the numbers. They never had any intention of going, which is a shame, because we spent a lot of time on each individual application.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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How realistic is that 400 figure?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is very realistic. We shared these numbers with the board, and it is all subject to getting permission for further exit schemes, but we are going to recap the plan of how we how we exit up to 400 over the five-year period. That is dependent on exit schemes, "Fair City" and things like that. It is realistic. We have 130-odd retirements in the next three years. Part of the process will be to look at those retirements and see with which of those we can suppress the role. Again, there is no cost in doing that.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Will that be included in the 400 figure?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to the regions. What progress has been made towards the decentralisation out of Dublin, looking at the likes of Cork or Galway? Will any other regional stations be opened or staffed better?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I was just down in Cork. In Cork, over the past nine months we have been looking at different premises to see what will actually work. With our plans for Cork, obviously the objective behind it is to support the creative industry there in terms of growing companies and output, and also aligning with other bodies which have a sectoral interest in terms of how things can be grown outside of the Dublin-Wicklow axis. The plan for Cork is to have it open and operational by the end of 2027. We are moving on. Obviously, the VEP has been very time consuming this year, but it is still on the roadmap. A lot is going to happen next year.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Will that mean extra staff or redeployment or will it stay the same?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
There will be expressions of interest across RTÉ to see who would be interested because it is not simply in the areas of – and Mr. Carson can speak to it in terms of video, but obviously we are trying to rebalance the overall skills. It is looking at the skills we will need in the future. The strategy is about responding to changing audience needs. As a public service media company, we need to ensure that we are serving the audience across everything. That is the content piece but it is also in terms of the tech and data skills and all of that. It is looking at everything in the round.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Homegrown or independent production? Is RTÉ trying to make both equal?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ had a target of 20% of staff being outside of Dublin before the end of this strategy, that is, by 2029. How is it doing on that? Is it going to make that target?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
You can look at the opening of the Cork hub. As Mr. Carson said earlier, "The Traitors Ireland" came from Limerick. We are looking across our entire regional network, because obviously we are in the west and the North and so on, to see how we can leverage those and redeploy people. Much like the VEP, it will be done on a voluntary basis. It will be for people who are interested in moving.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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When RTÉ says 20% of staff outside of Dublin, is that going to be on a fluid basis? That is, if a person goes for a project and then moves back, or is it going to be permanent?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I have time for only one more meaty question before the second round so I would like to take the RTÉ Player, if it has not been raised yet. Mr. Bakhurst and I had a robust conversation about it only last week because there are many people who would say it is still not performing as it should. I know there unquestionably have been improvements but as regards the likes of the commercials and being able to rewind and log in, etc., why is it not as good as some of the national streaming services yet?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I would challenge that. Mr. Carson can talk to the actual performance of the player, because it has been really significant. I am a big user of all apps, and if the Senator compares it to some others, the functionality is actually really good. It has come on significantly, particularly over the past 48 months, in what we have done on the front end of the app in terms of the user experience, but also the back end, because if we about the overall strategy, how people consume media is going to change by 2030, so about 50% of all media will be over the Internet and so will be streamed via IP.
That is a huge shift for us to make as a company because we need to build the infrastructure to deliver to homes and make it a smooth experience. However, our satisfaction scores for the RTÉ Player are 80%. Every quarter, along with our brand tracker, we specifically track the experience of using the player. We can only go by the data points we have and the satisfaction score was 80%. Mr. Carson may want to talk about the volume of people consuming, as it is a testament to the experience they are having.
Mr. Steve Carson:
There has been significant investment in the technology of the player to make improvements. The audience is responding and there is growth. There are 3 million streams per week now, which has effectively doubled in the past three years. Last year we had 142 million streams, which was way up on the year before, driven significantly by sport, which is a big driver of live player viewing. This year, we are on track to reach more than 150 million streams. There are some pockets. If people are in a Virgin home, we need to do a distribution deal. That is not the full player service, but we have improved the technology and expanded the content by commissioning such programmes as "Traitors", big dramas and live sport that are designed to drive traffic on the RTÉ Player as well on linear TV, which remains strong. I will also give a shout out to rte.ie, our online service, which hit 1 billion page views last year and is on track to hit another 1 billion page views this year.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst has borne the brunt of most of the questions. He might need to spread out some of the answers I am looking for among the team.
Before I ask those, Mr. Bakhurst joked earlier about Marty Morrissey not letting him leave, but does he want to double down on staying for the duration of the reform? Is that the plan?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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No comment.
On the voluntary exit packages, VEPs, I was unclear earlier. I think Mr. Bakhurst said there were 65, but I was not clear whether that included retirements.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay, so it is 65 VEPs. How many people did RTÉ hire in 2025?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It was a very small number. When people leave key jobs we have to replace them, and we did that. The number of people not hired as direct replacements is in the single figures. Ms O'Shaughnessy was one. There were a couple of technology jobs and data jobs. There were hires to replace people directly, the multi-media journalists, MMJs or whatever, across the organisation. Where key people leave, we have to replace them, for example if they are doing a job on "Six One News". However, the number of new hires to new positions has been in single figures.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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There were a lot of applications and some were rejected. When Ms Cusack made decisions on who was to be rejected for the voluntary exit package, how did she do that? Was it based on what was written on people's contracts or what they do day to day?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
The process was that every application came to the steering group and there were 28 meetings of the steering group, which included McCann Fitzgerald LLP, over the course of the VEP. Every application came with a business case, which included the cost of the role and the methodology being used to ascertain whether the role could be suppressed, because the rules around the scheme were clear, that it was 100% suppression or-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay, but when the role was looked at, was how the group decided based on what is written in the contract or was it what they actually did for a living? A lot of people are acting up and doing jobs they are not contracted for. How was the decision made? Was it based on what was written in contracts or did the group talk to management about what people do day to day?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay, that is confirmation it was role and the line managers supplied that information to the steering group.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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For clarity, the role was what people were coming into work and doing every day.
How many people who applied for the VEP were rejected?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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How many people appealed?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did anyone appeal successfully?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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RTÉ is a complex organisation and there are a lot of specific roles. Will that make it harder? Will it get more difficult every year? The first year, a lot of people will apply and maybe will have more clarity about whether they want to apply, but if they have been rejected are they likely to apply again? It will move into a new year. Does Ms Cusack expect to get 100 every year or will it go up or down?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
We were open from the start about the whole VEP being part of the five year strategy. The communication to people who were unsuccessful was not a blunt message that they had been unsuccessful, it was that for this particular scheme, we were not able to facilitate the application, but that it is our intention to run a scheme in 2026. As things change in the organisation over the next three to four years, that will allow us to facilitate more people to leave. One of the principles has been that we would not look at people doing more with less, so that has been part of the whole process as well.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst mentioned the difficulty with people who apply from news and current affairs. It is a specific skill set. Someone from the orchestra cannot be put into the newsroom, for example. That will be difficult. If people who do specific roles like reporting, craft editing and so on cannot be allowed to leave, has RTÉ looked at streamlining other areas, such as management?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Ms McCarthy and I have discussed this a lot. We only had a six or seven month window on the VEP this time, which is why it was quite hard because we have to take a fundamental look in places like news, where we are not putting in anything outside the organisation, at workflows, what people do and which people could move around. There are people who could move into news and have done so from video and audio to do roles. However, for a lot of the roles we can save in news, it will take time to work through them and we did not have the time in the six or seven month window, but we have already spoken about it. That is partly why we are only looking to open the next voluntary exit scheme in the summer of next year. We need to work through some of these things so we are in a stronger position when we start.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The next one will be next summer.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am glad sport was mentioned and the new radio schedule and show. I commend RTÉ on the decision to give two women the "Inside Sport" slot. It would not have happened 20 years ago and it is positive.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator left too early.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I left too early.
One thing I noticed over the past ten years or so - I was in RTÉ sport for 20 years - is the erosion of sports bulletins on the radio. Will any of them be re-instated on Radio 1 or 2FM? What are the plans?
Ms Patricia Monahan:
We need to review that. We have not got to it yet, to be honest. We were looking at the schedule. However, it is on the agenda now for us to look at it to see what the right cadence of sports bulletins is across the stations. It is definitely on the agenda to be looked at early in the new year.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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From a public service point of view, there is sport on "Morning Ireland" - we used to have the 10 a.m. sports bulletin - and on the "News at One". Then there is nothing for hours and there is no night-time sport before people fall asleep and 2FM is the same. It has definitely fallen away.
Ms Patricia Monahan:
It is definitely on my agenda to look at it. As the Senator will have seen from what we did with the schedule, sport is an important part of what Radio 1, in particular, does. We are now in the position of changing the schedule to take live matches on Radio 1 as well and we have "Inside Sport" every evening. Looking at the bulletins is the next step and we will absolutely do that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Last but not least, it is my slot.
I get a sense of more confidence from the team today, which is welcome but also necessary because the public needs to have confidence. We are looking at where the licence fees are going and I hope performances like this one will help all of us. In a way, we are an agent for RTÉ, to promote the work it does. I take the point that the witnesses are all into public service broadcasting and that is their role. I also take the point that, although it is difficult for me to see programming being lost - children's programming is a big issue for me and documentaries - I also know the witnesses have to work within the ditches they are provided with. Collectively, RTÉ is often criticised because it is expected to do more, but there is a limit.
On the first question, I was very much taken by the statement that RTÉ cannot do the impossible. I say that genuinely. However, from what was said earlier, will in-house programming in future essentially be news, current affairs, sport and radio?
Am I in any way missing anything there? Everything else will be as I call it commercial - Mr. Bakhurst calls it independent - and he will go to the market for it. Is that an accurate statement?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is important that message is put out there because if that is the statement of strategy and if that is the future, it is important that the people watching this know that. Expectations will have to be managed as regards what RTÉ will be doing into the future. There may be anomalies, not anomalies but other programmes. For instance this year's "The Late Late Toy Show" was the best I have ever seen. I am 50 years of age and my kids are in their teenage years but that was incredible. It is not something I would like to see outsourced. I am not saying that is where RTÉ will end up going.
In relation to sport, I am hugely supportive of all RTÉ does in regard to sport. However, Coimisiún na Meán presented the review of public funding to Cabinet last week. That shows RTÉ is going in a different direction to what it is saying as regards limiting some of the sport. RTÉ is actually increasing it. Personally I agree with it. Where does that fit with what Coimisiún na Meán said to Cabinet in its report?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I read the report. Part of what has driven the rise from 22% to 28% spend is the cost of sports' rights. However, as an organisation, the board would be in agreement with this, live sport is a key part of what we offer. It is one way of connecting with all audiences, particularly with younger audiences who are hard to connect with. It is one of the things that drives national moments which is a key part of our job. We are committed to it. I probably would fundamentally disagree that we should reduce-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So, Mr Bakhurst would disagree with Coimisiún na Meán in relation to that space?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Actually, I do too. However, it is important to point out that on the regulator's side we have one view while on the public service broadcaster side we have another view.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Where I am going with my questioning today is to try to get out there and elucidate to the public that this is where RTÉ is going. With all the questioning and so on, we have to get into that space. I took the document, the annual Digital News Report Ireland from DCU, to read briefly this morning.
I agree with much of what is in it, if not the way in which it was articulated this morning, but that is different. We also have to be realistic as regards the funding capacity and what is going to be there in the future.
There is a nervousness out there when it comes to commercial versus in-house and change. I get that; we all get that. There is also a nervousness as regards some fundamental issues in a changing world. We have no security correspondent any more. That was not a cost-saving exercise because the person who left the role is actually being paid the same now in a different role. We had drones while Zelenskyy was here but we do not have a security correspondent. We have an international security correspondent based in New York. For me, that is a weakness. We have the Washington correspondent role, which is ending in January. We have a London correspondent who used to be of this parish and is coming back to be an anchor. As Chair of the media committee, it is not my business about the individuals but can I have confidence that all four of those roles will be filled?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, dramatically. There is the justice and crime correspondent jumping in one minute and somebody else jumping in the next minute.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
That is something we should look at. It is fair to say that we are a contracting organisation. News and current affairs have been protected in this process but they are going to have to contract as well. If we start doing something we have to stop doing things as well. However, I would agree on the security aspect. It has become a sufficiently significant issue that we should look at it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not getting into the individual but there was no cost saving.
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
In fact, the role of security correspondent lies in current affairs. The current affairs section decided to change the correspondencies. It is actually a policy and analysis correspondence we are looking for now. We will also be advertising for a clarity correspondence which is in relation to mis- and dis-information.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have some final questions. I am a big supporter of regionality. That is the part for 2026 that I believe in. There could be economies and cost savings as a result of it. We can help with this but what is the biggest challenge in 2026 after what the organisation has got through in 2025? Second, and related to that, how as an organisation is RTÉ going to help the public to understand that this change is happening and this is where we are going in a way that will also help with licence fee issues?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On the second point, it is incumbent on me and the team around me here to go out and make the case. Whether that is on occasions such as this, whether it is in other media or in interviews, or just going and talking to audience groups which is what we do as well. We have to make the case about where RTÉ is going, what is the vision, what is the change that is happening and how we are delivering for audiences. We have to try continually to make the case. It is not always straightforward. Some areas are more receptive to hearing that than others but it is about us demonstrating the change too. It is about consistent engagement and important programming, which speaks for itself in many respects. It is all of those things. This is primarily an almost new leadership team.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am delighted to see that it is almost more female than male.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What about the risk question?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I do not know about the biggest risk for 2026. I would say we are in a good place for 2026. The key thing for us is we need to carry on and really crack on and deliver the strategy, as we promised. That was always part of the multifunding deal and there are two legs to it. When the Government agreed the multiyear funding deal, one part was that we would live within our means, which we are doing, and the second was that we deliver the strategy and we are doing it. The key challenge for us is to carry on doing it. As Mr. Lynch said, we have some key things next year. We will have a new news app early in the year, which should be really good. We will have a new audio app, which should be able to compete with things like BBC Sounds and give a better experience to the audience. The RTÉ Player will carry on improving with current investment in the player. It is really important we carry on doing really high-quality news and current affairs across the piece. So, the challenge is to carry on delivering all that. It will be a challenge. One of the biggest challenges is to try to see whether we can get slightly amended terms for the exit programme so that we can exit more people than we were able to do this year. That is probably the biggest risk because it is out of my hands. We have to negotiate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sure departmental officials are watching.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will focus on the independent production sector. I welcome the increased investment in that space. What is critical and is often under-appreciated is that in fostering a creative and cultural environment in Ireland, RTÉ’s role in so doing is obviously not just what happens within Donnybrook. That phrase “RTÉ supporting the arts” is important. For instance, the support of the amateur drama movement is critical. Looking at the independent production sector and in terms of creating employment and opportunities there, has Mr. Bakhurst been able to quantify that? He is able to talk about the increase in the number of commissions, but what about being able to quantify the difference that he has made?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I might hand that over to Mr. Carson in a moment. We work extremely closely with Screen Ireland and with SPI and it is often overlooked that a significant amount of what we have done over the last few years was already produced that way..
All our drama, apart from "Fair City", has been produced for years by the independent sector. "Dancing with the Stars", "The Traitors Ireland" and big-ticket programmes like them are produced by the independent sector. As much as I would like to claim this as a dramatic invention, it is not. It is building on what we already do for programmes that the audience already loves and cherishes. Mr. Carson has been a loud voice on the leadership team in terms of driving spend with the independent sector. Does Mr. Carson want to talk about next year?
Mr. Steve Carson:
As Mr. Bakhurst said, we are building on a track record built up going back more than two decades or so. There is a whole range of independent production companies, medium sized and small, many of them which see themselves as cultural organisations in the way that a theatre company would be, as well as companies of scale. Investment in independent spend is investment in content, which is incredibly important in the competitive world we are in. Last year the independent spend was €48 million. This year we are on track to hit €50 million. That is one €1.9 million above the statutory spend requirements. Next year we are looking to add €78 million of spend with independent producers onto that as well. That is stepping up a significant investment.
One thing about Irish production I would say is that the balance and weight of Irish production is across live, continuous areas, such as audio, sport, news and current affairs. In terms of "Fair City" and "The Late Late Show", as we talked about, we are going through feasibility studies. The exact production model of those will have to be decided by that. We have Cláracha Gaeilge as the Irish-language in-house department. All these things are being worked through. They rely on the voluntary system as well. We also want to expand into other areas like podcasting as well.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Coproduction in film and so on is critical. For me, it is about building that ecosystem.
Mr. Steve Carson:
That is crucial as well. Our direct investment is through the licence fee with independent producers. We also help them to attract other funds, whether that is Coimisiún na Meán's Sound and Vision, section 481, the new unscripted credit coming through and then coproducing with other broadcasters. A significant amount of co-commissioning is now happening with the BBC. That is attracting inward investment into the Irish creative sector. In the past three years, producers working with us have accessed about another €30 million a year of additional funding.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ needs to sell that. It is critical for Ireland's artistic cultural ecosystem.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Something I did not get to touch on in my earlier round was the TV licence. When you look at the continuing decline in the level of payments, it is clear to say that the figures are dropping off. The latest figures I have show that just over 61,000 people paid their licence last month. That is down from nearly 88,000 this time three years ago before RTÉ was rocked by the series of payment scandals. If you look at it year on year, there are 711,000 this year, 790,000 last year, 824,000 the year before and 950,000 the year before that. Given that, does RTÉ think the TV licence is tenable going forward?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
This an ongoing discussion. It is always described as the least worst option, in a way. So long as significant numbers of people are still paying their TV licence, it is money that the Government does not have to divert from other areas. That is the argument for it. It does give RTÉ an arm's length independence from direct funding. There is no doubt but that it is challenging and that the numbers are challenging. Let us wait to the year end, because December can traditionally be a good month, but as I said, it has been up and down in various months. It is sort of plateauing at the moment. Increasing numbers of homes are saying they are non-TV homes and they do not have to pay the licence. There are increasing numbers of welfare licences. That is money we get from the Government for people who do not pay for TV licences. The population is dwindling a bit but so long as we have it, we continue to try to tell people the value they are getting and market it as well as we can.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The numbers speak for themselves. The trajectory clearly shows that year on year, this is dropping off. The more this is discussed in forums like this and media publications and whatnot, the more that people see that people are not paying their licence, the more people are going to drop off. Is it fair to continue to extract payments from people who are willing to meet their obligations knowing there is a huge and growing cohort of people refusing to pay?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
In the end it is not a matter for me. It is a matter for the politicians. We will do what we can to demonstrate value as long as that is the system. If we are funded a different way, we will continue trying to do the best job. It is a political decision in the end. The key thing for us was not how it was paid, but multiyear funding so that we can plan, invest, make commitments to some of our partners on big programmes that we are going to do two years or three years, rather than just one year, which is a game-changer for the Irish creative sector as well.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to understand how difficult RTÉ's job is. It is trying to get the balance between smaller headcount, rebalancing employment between Dublin and the regions, investing in infrastructure, but still trying to have high-quality, impactful content. With that in mind and with €725 million having been committed, does RTÉ expect to go back for more?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No. It is important to note that the €725 million, which we were grateful for, includes TV licences as well as Government top-ups. TV licence revenue was coming in anyway over the next three years. The key thing for us is to have the certainty of the level it is at over the three years. We are grateful for the top-up we have got between the licence fee money and what we said we need to deliver the strategy. We have said categorically in this three-year period that we have no intention of coming back for more money.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. On the maths in terms of outsourcing, if RTÉ is talking about outsourcing the lotto and "Fair City", if you compare the price of outsourcing - you have to buy back in again and pay the outsourcing company - and what it is costing to produce at the moment, is it a huge difference? I know every case is different. Percentage-wise, is RTÉ saving 50% by outsourcing?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Quite often you do not save any money by outsourcing. It is just a different way of producing. The one thing I will say about outsourcing or making stuff outside with independents is that quite often you get tax breaks as part of the deal. As Mr. Carson said, when you are working with an independent company on a drama like "Kin", "These Sacred Vows" or something like that, RTÉ puts in €1 million an episode. That is a rough figure. You will get tax relief, partners like the BBC or ITV or whatever putting money in. Every million we put in gets multiplied two or three times. The Irish audience is getting two or three times the value from that programme because it is made by an independent company. It is eligible, it can sell it to the BBC and so on, which we would not be able to do ourselves. In that way, it does multiply the value of the public funding we get.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It would be remiss of me to finish up without mentioning the toy show. I cannot overemphasise how successful that is. It is an institution in Ireland. We have to give credit where credit is due. I am still not sure whether RTÉ is targeting the adults, the parents or the kids because I do not know who gets more excited.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is not a criticism, but the one question I am asked by every constituent throughout Wicklow-Wexford on Saturday morning is there any way someone from RTÉ would consider the timing of it. It is almost turned into a children's stamina Olympics. No one in the Brennan household got a gold medal thankfully.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have discussed that. The Deputy is right. It was massively successful. A total of 1.4 million people watched it on TV. Approximately 640,000 watched it on the player, not just in Ireland but globally around the world. Patrick Kielty did a fantastic job. The kids on it were great. The Irish audiences donated €4.6 million to the toy show appeal. We have raised over €30 million now. We have looked at the earlier time slot. That would be changing a very successful institution. It is almost like getting rid of the Angelus.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They get a night of staying up. I think they prefer it. I would keep it the way it is.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Brennan was not too happy. He was like a dog. He did not get tickets to the toy show earlier on. I want to put on the record that what Mr. Bakhurst and his leadership team are doing is working. He is helping restore trust and confidence back to the Irish public. That has to be noted and acknowledged. I think he had a good performance here today. A lot of the work he is doing is very impactful. Well done to him. I want to talk in the time I have left about an article that appeared in the Business Post toward the end of October in relation to a former member of the RTÉ board and executive, Jim Jennings. I understand at the time that Mr. Jennings could not attend the board on health grounds. That is totally understandable. It went to the WRC as a result.
According to that report, a settlement of almost €500,000 was paid to Mr. Jennings. Does Mr. Bakhurst think a settlement of that amount would be commensurate with the role he held?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is huge money though.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It was huge money. We went through this at the time. I have said before I have no intention of doing that again but I came in with a remit for change and I needed to change. You work within the laws of the country. As the Deputy knows, with some individuals we did not do a deal with them. It went to the WRC and it was decided at the WRC. There was no alternative for us and frankly we have seen with other organisations that if you try to do a deal but end up going through the courts, it can end up costing an awful lot more with legal fees and final settlements. To be clear, I have no intention of doing that again.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was Mr. Bakhurst at the Joe Duffy going away party at The Duke?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurst was not at it?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Were you, Chap?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No I was not invited either. We seem to not get invited to a lot of things.
I know Mr. Jennings has departed RTÉ and I totally accept that but if Mr. Bakhurst was talking to him would he encourage him to come before this committee? He would have an awful lot of valuable information. I know we do not want to look back, we want to look forward, but there is a lot of information which he would have that would be hugely beneficial to us.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I honestly do not know what he would add at this stage. I know Mr. Jennings. To be fair, as he has said publicly, he has significant health issues. He has had extremely clear advice from his consultants about his health. I do not think anyone’s life is worth jeopardising when that is the kind of advice they have received.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On Raidió na Gaeltachta funding, does the money taken in on the advertising for Raidió na Gaeltachta stay in the Irish language section of RTÉ or does it go back into the pot?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Well, we are glad you are staying, Kevin.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There might not be a cow milked in Montrose if you left, to quote you-know-who.
Mr. Bakhurst is not right on everything but I thank him for his answers. I like very much the facility on RTÉ where you can listen back item-by-item on “Morning Ireland” but I absolutely love what BBC Sounds can offer where you can go back 30, 60 or 90 seconds if your listening to an item is interrupted by a phone call and you want to get back to something very important. Is there any reason to hope for an improvement in functionality in that direction? Is that for Ms Monahan?
Ms Patricia Monahan:
Yes. The Senator can be very hopeful on that front. We are currently in development on a new audio app that will come to market in the second half of next year. It is intended to include those features in the app. All going well with development, that will be a feature we will be able to offer.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank Ms Monahan. I do not know if this next question is for Mr. Bakhurst or Mr. Carson. Going back to the broadcast of religious services, what is the plan for this? Will there be live, on-location mass or equivalent religious service according to denominational numbers of whatever every Sunday? Can there be movement towards live broadcast on a daily basis of the kind that is going on now but not delayed timewise? Can they guarantee that now or in the future, other than the normal curating of homilies or reflections to make sure they stick to time and ensure they feature nothing libellous or illegal, that there would be no other editorialising or interference with what might or might not be said in the same way that RTÉ would not interfere with the rules of a GAA match it was covering? Is that the level of respectful engagement that we can be assured of?
Mr. Steve Carson:
There are two things. We will separate out the offer of Sundays on RTÉ and the RTÉ Player from the daily masses on the news channel. Yes, we are going to have a service from parishes, congregations and communities right around Ireland. We are working to make sure the Catholic services would be broadcast live. There would still be some time shift of Catholic services around the ones provided through the Eurovision fee – not the song contest but the rest of the Eurovision – but the intention is to make sure the Catholic services are live on a Sunday schedule. Because it is a live broadcast we are required to maintain editorial oversight of what is broadcast. Just as what we do with the current studio-based model we will be talking to congregations and parishes and celebrants to say we need to have oversight of what is intended to be broadcast here. That is the status quo as it is.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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However, I just want to make sure that it does not extend further than ensuring legality and keeping within time. I do not think people would find it acceptable if, for example, priests or ministers were being told they could preach about this but not about that.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I want to return to the regions. This may predate people here so I am happy to take an answer at a later stage if so. Back in 2012, there was a cost-saving measure of €1 million to move into the institutes of technology – Sligo, Dundalk, Galway, Athlone and Waterford. Looking into the annals of time I cannot find what happened those. Did they just peter out? They seemed like a very good cost-saving measure at the time. Would something like that work again in the future for the regions?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I can talk about that because it was an initiative I was involved in. When I arrived in news the plan was to shut all the regional bureaus apart from Cork, I think. RTÉ, like a lot of the country, was very tight for money. I was always determined we would keep a regional presence so that was a way to do it as a partnership. The ITs are fantastic about helping us like that. I think we should always look at these. In Galway, we are still in the old IT premises there.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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In Athlone, I think RTÉ moved out.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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It is ideal for there to be new emerging talent and skills on the premises. Is that something that could be looked at again?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It was always great in some of the ITs because frankly they often had better facilities than we did. They had really good, young media students coming through and that was part of the deal. I went down to talk to the media students and they would get some experience with our teams there too.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We spoke about how we hoped there was no longer an “us and them” culture in RTÉ still. There did seem to be that culture there over the years. How has Mr. Bakhurst worked, and how is it working, to build up that trust and integrity once again between management and some areas of staff in RTÉ?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is a long process, as I think I said to the Senator the other day. There was definitely a big gap between the then executive and the rest of the organisation and that was part of the problem. We are all working incredibly hard and we are using lots of different ways to try to do it. We need to get back into normalising some staff events. Last week I came straight back from Geneva and we had an event around lighting the Christmas lights where lots of staff came in with their families. Those are the kinds of events where people feel proud and there is a bit of fun again working in RTÉ. We are looking for opportunities to do that. We may have to spend a bit of money but I think it is important to do that so we can break down the silos and make it a better place to work.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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It must be difficult with the sword of Damocles hanging overhead of the redundancies, which I am hoping do not have to become compulsory if voluntary does not work.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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So that is not going to happen.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I want to go back and talk about pensions before we finish. RTÉ accepted the State’s findings that certain people were misclassified over the years. They were wrongly classified as self-employed. RTÉ has paid €21.7 million in employer PRSI. Some of those same workers still have no recognised pensionable service. Who will carry that liability? Will it be the individuals themselves, RTÉ or the Exchequer?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have done a huge amount of work on regularising employment as the Senator will know. There was a collective deal done under Eversheds which the vast majority of people signed up to as a settlement with no retrospection.
A small number of people did not sign up to that. Some of them have gone to the WRC. To the best of my knowledge, all of the ones who have gone have not been successful there because the WRC has upheld the collective agreement. We have done as much as an organisation can do to regularise employment and to make some sort of payment under the Eversheds scheme to recognise where people may have lost out but I genuinely do not think as an organisation it would be prudent or right that we should do more than as agreed in the collective agreement.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Have the scope section decisions been entered into RTÉ's records from a HR point of view?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay. Does that not mean RTÉ is bound by EU law, for example, to actually reflect that with pension?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is worth saying that under the scope there were around 700 cases, and we are getting down to the last 50 or 100 now. The rest have all been dealt with. Interestingly, I think in over 60% of the cases that the scope section looked at, the people were correctly employed and the other ones we have gone through, and we have worked our way through and we have settled up on the PRSI. This committee asked about this a couple of years ago and we have made huge progress in the last couple of years. This is thanks to the Department there as well because we have worked in good collaboration to try to clear those, clear the backlog and make the PRSI payments as were due to those people who were due them.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst think that RTÉ would be in a position to publish a clear statement of its pension obligations to all reclassified employees? I do not think there has been an awful lot of clarity around it. Would RTÉ be in a position to publish that?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
All of the people who have become employees from RTÉ became employees on a go-forward basis as part of the Eversheds process. Then there was a facilitated collective agreement entered into with the unions that dealt with retrospection, so there would be nothing further on that. The Department of Social Protection has been looking at a population of just under 700 people. As Mr. Bakhurst has just said, the majority of those have now been-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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But what about the bogus self-employed outside of Eversheds? Those people have not-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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They still matter though.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, I know. It is an important matter. I have met most of them talk to them individually about it and I have a lot of personal sympathy for them but we have taken legal advice. Because there has been a collective agreement for the vast majority, which is 80 or so, if we do any deals with those ten individuals it completely undermines the whole collective agreement that has been done with the 80 and the whole thing would be reopened again for the whole of the 80. It is clear and legal. This is what was tested at the WRC, which upheld this as well. It upheld the fact that the collective agreement was done, which involved the unions, representatives of those individuals, and us. To do anything else would be reckless to try and it would undermine that collective agreement.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Given the Barber judgment and Article 157, is Mr. Bakhurst happy that RTÉ is not breaching EU law in that regard?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a couple of quick questions. When I asked before about correspondents I mentioned the political correspondent moving into presenting. Will that position be filled as well?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. That is everyone I mentioned.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He is a Kerry man so I would not do that to him. The mandatory retirement age comes up quite a bit across all of us. Some people are allowed to skip it and continue to work. There has to be fairness around this and there have to be criteria. What are the criteria? Can we see them?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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How does RTÉ pick one over the other?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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But how is it decided whether RTÉ wants them to stay beyond that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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And from 66 on?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is the small number that keep raising this with all of us on the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know. Trust me. We get as many emails on this issue as we do on everything else because, being frank about it, it is seen that there is favouritism. I am not saying that but that is their point-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There is no favouritism. Those individual cases come to the leadership team for robust discussion about whether they have a particular value to the organisation that is very hard to replicate. By and large it would be a small number of on-air people who the audience love and who would be very hard to replace. Apart from that there are very few-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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But does RTÉ have internal criteria by which that leadership team makes that decision?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
We follow the code of practice. A big element that is considered after the age of 66 is whether there is an opportunity for younger people for succession planning. From the age of 65 to 66 there is no objection and then it would be the case that we follow the code of practice. All of those issues are discussed-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Some people could stay on forever.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not saying it is a good idea. I am just asking about the basis of the criteria. Basically, with people staying after 66 is that issue reviewed every year?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is a little bit of solace in that. A comment was made on "The Traitors Ireland", which was incredibly successful and we were all sucked into it. Despite what Deputy 'Chap' Cleere said I am not volunteering to go on it, although I would not rule it out. Anyway-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There might be a documentary one day.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes that would be good. Mr. Bakhurst said it had "washed its face", and I think it was Mr. Carson, or perhaps someone else, said it had made a profit. Given the volume of people who watched it how could RTÉ not make a profit from revenue based on that programme?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not sure who said it, but I will just glance between-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is a big difference between "washing its face" and making a significant amount of money.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I do not need to know the numbers but it was significant.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Look I know RTÉ has to hide the figure purely because otherwise-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know. I understand that.
On the last one, which was my bugbear, I am delighted to say that RTÉ has put in a bit of investment to it. I got a lot of chatter from people in RTÉ and outside RTÉ in relation to podcasting. A significant amount has gone into that. How much of that is in-house production versus out of house? I know it was said there are 70 different-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Across what sectors?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sport.
Ms Patricia Monahan:
Of course sport, which will be a big part of it. The commissioning will be across a whole variety of genres. There will be some in-house content created as well. We are at the stage now where we have run two commissioning rounds, one external and one internal, and we have got over 400 submissions that we are working through for podcast ideas. Obviously, the delivery of an original podcast slate was always due to be timed with the app, so that will come to bear on this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What date is the app coming?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. RTÉ's capacity for podcasting is, frankly, incredible. I always thought it was a strong weakness so I was glad to hear that.
On behalf of the committee I thank everyone for their time today. I thank you for your frankness. Obviously, from a regime point of view there is more confidence and certainly there seems to be a plan. From our perspective, a big issue in relation to a lot of the contributions today, and from what I said earlier, is the public management. There needs to be a situation now where we show where RTÉ is going. Until today, I do not think that was necessarily coming out. This needs to be transposed and pushed out there. Frankness about what RTÉ is going to be doing in the future internally versus externally with commercial is a critical component. The importance of public service broadcasting and the importance of having a public service broadcaster is also getting lost but hopefully, building on the confidence of today, we will be able to push that out and enhance it. Thanks very much. That ends our session. We will now go into a private session as we have some business to do with colleagues very quickly.