Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Máire Devine and Senator Lynn Ruane. I am delighted to open this eighth public meeting of the committee and our second in the education, youth and prevention module. In today's meeting, we will be discussing substance use and young people. I welcome Ms Brenda Kelly, drug and alcohol senior youth worker, and Ms Carmel Walsh, director of youth services, Belong To; Mr. Mick Ferron, chief executive officer, and Ms Rachael Treanor, national youth health and programme manager, National Youth Council of Ireland; and Ms Leanne Maher, drug education worker, Canal Communities Local Drug and Alcohol Task Force.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege. All witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask that members participating via MS Teams confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution to the meeting.

I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements to the committee in a moment and following that I will call on members to put their questions to the witnesses. All statements have been circulated to the members and will be published on the Oireachtas website after this session. As agreed, we will limit each opening statement to five minutes to allow plenty of time for questions and answers. I am conscious that a wide range of issues will be subject to discussion today. If necessary, further and more detailed information can be circulated through the clerk to the members. I should also mention that members will be in and out of the committee meeting due to different meetings taking place all over the campus, so I ask witnesses for some forgiveness on that.

I call Ms Kelly to give her opening statement on behalf of Belong To. She is very welcome.

Ms Brenda Kelly:

I thank the Chair and the committee for the opportunity to address them on the topic of substance use and young people. The Chair has already introduced me. For two decades, Belong To has supported and advocated for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender young people across Ireland. We work with and for LGBTQ+ young people from the ages of ten to 23 and our services include a family support service, LGBTQ+ youth groups and the only dedicated drug and alcohol support service for LGBTQ+ young people in Ireland.

Substance use among LGBTQ+ young people remains a critical public health concern in Ireland. Recent research highlights that the group uses drugs and alcohol at a significantly higher rate than the general youth population. Young people and LGBTQI people have been recognised as groups that are more likely to use illegal drugs and-or binge drink. As such, they have been identified for targeted interventions by drug and alcohol reduction policy in Ireland. A 2024 study, Being LGBTQI in Ireland, found that 54% of LGBTQI respondents had used drugs in their lifetime and half of those had done so in the past year. This compares to about 27% of the general youth population.

Research also shows that this problem is not new. In 2016, the LGBT Ireland report found that almost half of LGBTQ+ young people aged 14 to 25 had used drugs recreationally, which was nearly twice the rate of their non-LGBT peers. Earlier research by Belong To in 2006 reported that 65% of LGBT youth had used drugs and 21% were using them regularly.

Taken together, these studies suggest a clear and consistent pattern: LGBTQ+ young people have faced higher levels of substance misuse over the last two decades. The implications of these findings extend beyond substance use alone. Both the 2016 and the 2024 studies link drug and alcohol misuse to heightened mental health risks, including depression, anxiety, self-harm and suicidality. Experiences of bullying, discrimination and minority stress amplify vulnerability, creating a complex interplay between substance misuse and mental health outcomes.

We have celebrated social and political progress relating to LGBTQ+ rights in Ireland over the past 30 years, but in recent years we have experienced a slow but steady increase in discrimination and hate, including violence, hate crime and hate speech, among the LGBTQ+ community. This targeting has, unfortunately, been experienced by young people and staff within our service. When schools, communities and society feel unwelcoming and unsafe, young people turn to substance misuse as an escape. Among LGBTQ+ youth who have used drugs, 74% reported their identity was not accepted at home. Additionally, LGBTQ+ young people who have experienced homelessness in the past year were twice as likely to have used drugs than those in stable accommodation. A study commissioned by Focus Ireland and Belong To found that many of the LGBTQ+ young people who reported using drugs had begun to do so or their use increased after becoming homeless.

At Belong To, our aim is to reduce these risks through an inclusive, non-stigmatising approach that prioritises prevention and early intervention. We create safe spaces where young people can openly discuss substance use without fear of shame, ensuring they receive support that is confidential and affirming. Our harm reduction model combines direct support, education and community collaboration. We provide youth groups, one-to-one guidance and tailored workshops to empower young people with the practical tools to make informed choices.

By addressing underlying issues such as mental health challenges and social isolation early, we help to build resilience and healthier coping mechanisms. In partnership with the North Inner City Drugs and Alcohol Task Force and local services, we ensure seamless referral pathways for crisis counselling, mental health and substance use support, working collectively to create a safer and healthier future for LGBTQ+ people in Ireland. However, many feel they cannot access LGBTQ+ services because of the shame related to substance use and, equally, cannot approach drugs services for fear of stigma and discrimination linked to their identity. One participant in the research we conducted with Focus Ireland described feeling double-closeted as both homeless and LGBTQ+, a term that resonates strongly with LGBTQ+ young people who are also using drugs, highlighting how isolated and invisible they feel.

We are working to address this through training and education across external sectors such as schools, youth services, homeless services and, importantly, the drugs sector so that all support services are safe and affirming for LGBTQ+ identities. In 2021, we established an LGBTQ+ drug and alcohol advisory group with partners, including Merchants Quay, SAOL Project, Rialto Drug Service and Ana Liffey Project to identify training needs within drug services. We are also collaborating with Outhouse on a proposal for in-depth research into substance use patterns among LGBTQ+ adolescents and young people, including barriers to treatment, harm reduction strategies and training needs for professional in the sector. Additionally, we facilitate outreach to external drug services when needed and run harm reduction campaigns online to reach young people who do not present in person to our service. These campaigns often collaborate with organisations such as the Gay Men’s Health Service and Drugs.ie to ensure content reflects LGBTQ+ youth experiences. Our goal is clear: to ensure no young person feels invisible or unsupported because of who they are or the challenges they face. Through our programmes, services and inclusion training, we are striving to prevent substance misuse by creating safe and supportive spaces for LGBTQ+ youth. However, we cannot achieve this alone. We need greater investment and commitment from those who can drive change at the national policy and legislative levels. On behalf of Belong To, I look forward to our discussion and hope that these insights prove useful.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Ms Kelly. Mr. Ferron is next, on behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

On behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland, I thank the committee members for their invitation to speak today on the topic of substance use and young people. I am joined today by my colleague Rachael Treanor, national youth health programme manager.

Recommendation 14 of the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use reinforces our broader call to strengthen youth work as a cornerstone of prevention and early intervention, ensuring that restorative justice and diversion initiatives are supported by accessible community-based services and inclusive youth spaces. When we talk about prevention, we must recognise that not all young people are in formal education and even those who are may not fully engage with school-based programmes. That is why youth work is so vital. Youth work offers a space where there is no judgement, where young people voluntarily engage and can freely express themselves, ask questions, constructively challenge opinions and experience a variety of things that they traditionally might not get to access. The relationships youth workers and volunteers have with young people is unique. They meet young people where they are at, in their communities and on their own terms, creating safe spaces for honest conversations and meaningful engagement. If we overlook the role of youth work, we risk leaving behind some of those most in need of connection, guidance and alternatives to substance use. When young people have access to strong youth work programmes, they are more likely to make positive choices and less likely to engage in harmful substance abuse behaviour. This is due in no small part to the youth work focus on building confidence, developing coping skills and fostering a sense of belonging. We know that substance abuse does not happen in isolation and it often stems from stress, lack of support or feeling disconnected. Youth work has the proven capacity to address these types of issues with young people in a positive, effective and youth-centred way. RED C polling for the National Youth Council of Ireland shows that 89% of the Irish public recognise the importance of investing in youth clubs, centres and services as essential supports for mental health and well-being.

Through our training delivery with youth workers across the country we have heard the views of those who are working at the coalface with young people. They have raised a number of issues and concerns over the last year, with a number of themes emerging, including young people and crime, young people and social isolation, intergenerational impacts, drug use and mental health, access to services, access to substances, and vaping and nicotine pouches. These are discussed in greater detail in our briefing material.

Across youth work settings, a significant amount of valuable practice is already under way to support young people through education, prevention and early intervention, ensuring that their needs are met in safe, inclusive and community-based environments. However, many services and teams remain overstretched due to limited resources, increased demands and increasingly complex issues and needs. In line with recommendations made in the national drug strategy specific to the youth work sector and based on national youth health programme consultations with the youth workers, the following recommendations have emerged. First, increase resources and capacity within youth work organisations so youth workers, including detached youth workers, can meet young people where they are at and create safe, supportive spaces in communities and on the streets. Strengthening this capacity not only provides meaningful alternatives to substance use and involvement in drug-related activities but also creates opportunities for youth workers to safely engage young people about their drug use. These conversations are grounded in trust and understanding. They can open pathways to healthier choices and appropriate support services.

We ask that there is an increase in funding for youth work organisations to develop counselling and therapeutic supports for young people experiencing substance and mental health difficulties. This would allow those currently on waiting lists to access support more quickly in an environment that feels familiar and comfortable. Recommendation 31 of the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use calls for a national strategy to enhance resilience, mental health and therapeutic supports. Increased funding for youth work counselling services directly advances the same by providing timely, community-focused support for young people while easing pressure on CAHMS and youth services.

Strategic investment in integrated youth hubs should be prioritised to create inclusive spaces that reflect the diverse interests of young people extending well beyond support. Co-located hubs could bring together youth work programmes, mental health supports, education and career guidance and creative opportunities such as music, arts, coding and gaming under one roof. This model has the potential to not only provide meaning alternatives to substance abuse and risky behaviours but also to ensure young people can safely and positively engage with trusted youth workers about their experiences, including youth work. By fostering collaboration among services and maximising public investment, these hubs create accessible, welcoming environments that place young peoples' needs at the centre and strengthen community resilience.

We recommend an increase in resources to enable the youth work sector to strengthen its role in education and prevention, complementing recommendation 28 of the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use which calls for a comprehensive, age-appropriate, school-based drug prevention strategy, led by the Departments of health and education, in conjunction with the HSE. While schools and external experts will deliver structured programmes to children, young people, parents and teachers, youth work provides the crucial community-based dimension, building confidence, resilience and critical understanding of drug use and its impacts. By equipping young people to navigate peer pressure, make informed choices and engage in open conversations about substance use, youth workers can foster healthier attitudes and behaviours and successful programmes already exist. The challenge is to scale their reach and ensure they are accessible to all communities. I thank the committee for this opportunity and welcome any questions.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Our next contributor is Ms Maher to give her opening statement on behalf of the Canal Communities Local Drug and Alcohol Task Force.

Ms Leanne Maher:

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to address the committee today. It is a privilege to contribute to this important discussion on substance use and young people, an issue that shapes communities across Ireland. In my role as a drug education worker with the Canal Communities Local Drug and Alcohol Task Force I have the privilege of working with skilled, compassionate workers across the services in Inchicore, Rialto and Bluebell and I welcome the committee’s continued focus on education, youth and prevention.

Young people today are growing up in a rapidly changing environment. They are navigating social media influences, shifting family structures, increased academic pressure, housing insecurity and the lasting effects of the pandemic. Mental health challenges are now one of the most common issues raised by families and youth services, and young people are turning to substances, not to experiment but to cope. This kind of self-medicating is often a sign of deeper distress and, without the right supports, can quickly escalate. The drug landscape itself is changing faster than ever. Substances such as HHC and other synthetic cannabinoids have become more available, often marketed online specifically targeting young people and perceived as legal or safer. This is not true, but as regulations tighten, new synthetic alternatives are emerging just as quickly. Young people are navigating a constantly shifting market and front-line workers are struggling to keep pace. When HHC was made illegal, was there any consideration for what young people who may have already become dependent on HHC might turn to instead? Across the country, young people are being exploited and groomed into the drug trade, sometimes subtly and sometimes violently. The harms are hidden such as fear, coercion, trauma and in some cases, serious threats to safety. Criminalisation alone will not protect these young people, they need intervention, support and pathways out, not punishment for being exploited.

Prevention is not just a health issue, it includes education, housing, mental health and social justice. Prevention cannot just rely on occasional talks or reactive responses. There needs to be ongoing partnership, consistent evidence-based education, staff training and clear referral pathways when concerns emerge. Prevention needs to include real-time information sharing, early warning systems and investment in innovative community education. It is important to recognise that substance use is often a symptom, not a cause. When young people feel connected, valued and hopeful about the future, substance use declines. Embedding youth participation in policy design, education programmes and prevention initiatives will make our responses more accurate and far more effective. The voices of young people themselves are essential. They are experts in their own experience. They understand emerging trends long before we do and they can tell us what information they trust and what supports they actually use.

We need stronger structures that allow task forces to work side by side with schools rather than on parallel tracks. Schools are under tremendous pressure and often do not have the time or resources to address substance use. Prevention needs to extend beyond the classroom. Youth services, community clubs, sports teams, and online spaces are all powerful environments for shaping behaviour. Equipping youth workers, coaches and community leaders with training and consistent guidance can ensure that young people receive the same supportive messages no matter where they are.

After the pandemic, the needs in communities rose but the funding stayed the same. Our task force currently funds the role of a family education support worker who works across three youth services and is still unable to meet the needs of these three communities. We also currently host a role of a well-being worker who works with young people aged 14 and over who have been impacted by substance use. This was a need that was not being met under current funding channels and was only possible through a generous donation.

Stable funding for youth services, particularly in disadvantaged areas, is critical if we want to provide safe alternatives and early support. Multidisciplinary teams are needed in youth services and investing in youth-focused substances prevention can save the State money in the long term. When young people understand the effects of substances, feel empowered to make informed decisions, and have supportive adults they can talk to, the outcomes are significantly better. Young people need places where they can connect, belong, and build confidence, especially those who may not engage with structured education or sport. Safe youth spaces and recreational community supports are crucial. Youth projects, drop-in centres, youth cafés, outreach workers, and community clubs provide protective factors that no information session can replace. Where these are lacking, we see higher levels of risk and harm.

The most successful prevention strategies combine accurate information, consistent relationships, positive community engagement, innovative programmes and supports that young people can access without stigma. We need to get more creative in our responses to young people and substance use. In conjunction with Core Youth Service, I developed drug education escape rooms, which are a great example of the programmes that can be developed to educate young people on substance use. All of these issues, including mental health, self-medicating, school engagement, synthetic drugs, and exploitation, are interconnected. The most effective responses share three features: they are local, they are relational, and they are consistent. Drug and alcohol task forces are uniquely positioned to deliver this. We work in communities, with families, with schools, with youth services, and with those young people who may not be visible to other systems. To continue doing this effectively, we need stable resourcing, integrated pathways, and national policies that match the realities we see every day on the ground. Young people thrive when they feel safe, supported, and hopeful about their future. Our challenge, and our responsibility, is to create the conditions that make that possible. I thank the committee.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and the work that they do. It is truly invaluable and they do not need to convince me of it. We wanted to bring forward recommendations in our report that will strengthen their work.

I will start with Mr. Ferron with regard to funding. The witnesses have all said that without adequate funding, they cannot meet the needs that are presenting. How have funding trends been changing? I am thinking about the different funding streams coming from youth services and justice. How do they interact or not interact? What is the impact of the difference on the delivery of youth services in responding to community needs? Mr. Ferron mentioned counselling. He has a great example that he spearheaded in a previous life in Sphere 17, in Cabra for Youth. It would be helpful to share with the committee the work of the Listen Project. It started as a pilot and has developed significantly. It is something that this committee should look to secure funding for on a much greater basis. Mr. Ferron will explain it much better than I ever could.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

I thank the Senator for those kind words. I will take the first question on youth justice and the more general youth sector funding. In the youth sector, we have noticed and welcomed a significant increase in funding for youth diversion projects. The experience on the ground is that in most cases, those youth diversion projects work closely hand in hand with the youth work providers. It would be our experience that youth work providers in many cases have that relationship with the communities and with young people, the infrastructure and the youth work approach that has benefited youth justice work. Unfortunately, we would find that funding for youth work has not kept pace. The recent pre-budget submission that the National Youth Council of Ireland got collaboration from the sector on was a request for funding of approximately a €21 million uplift. That was really to meet the increased demands. While a final confirmation of the figure has yet to come in, it has fallen short of that. The takeaway there is probably that there was a required increase of 13% to even just stand still and keep up the current level of output and need, much less increase the services in the way that we would like to.

NYCI and I are of the view that infrastructure exists in this country to deal with a whole range of issues and needs for young people, but it needs investment in the centres we talked about, in people and in programmes. Investment now is going to save the State significantly down the line. There is much conversation about whether there is a requirement to be more prudent and recognise that some of the funding that is available today may not be available in the future but we would say that investing now is a prudent decision.

On the Listen Project and youth counselling, the Senator is too modest that she was supportive of that work on the ground. It was instrumental in bringing the service to the level that it was. This came about in 2010 as a concern in the local community about death and youth suicide. We came together as community leaders concerned about how we could respond to that. Some small-scale funding was received and, with that, we developed a youth counselling service that focused on working with young people between 12 and 21. The intent was to place that service in the youth work setting because it was recognised that you would remove some of the stigma and barriers that were potentially associated with going to access counselling. We also made it free of charge, which was a significant help. Over the years, we have developed that service and expanded it. We brought it into schools and we have tracked the benefit of that to young people. We measure the impact for young people against six key metrics in their lives. We use what they tell us to ultimately measure the effectiveness. The results have been positive. We are hearing that it makes a difference, even in a short period. Typically most of the sessions would be four to eight weeks. We felt with the Listen Project that there is value in giving thought to how to come up with a community response but it requires investment and support to make it work. This is definitely a project that is scalable but there are many more like it in lots of other organisations and communities.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Well done. It was a community response. There is a tremendous service for young people who have availed of it and their families. It is scalable. It would be great if Mr. Ferron could circulate to the committee the findings of the Listen Project because it is incredibly valuable and a great example of what can be achieved when funding is applied. Would he say that there is a wide divergence emerging between the funding that is coming from the justice and youth streams and the funding that traditional, non-justice and youth diversion services are able to access?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

Yes, is the short answer. I do not have the exact figures to hand but year on year----

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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That is fine, I do not need exact figures. It is helpful for Mr. Ferron that it is the case. The committee should set as an objective the correction of that because it is unhelpful.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Thank you Senator. I thank Mr. Ferron for the short answer. Deputy Graves is next.

Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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All the presentations were really informative. We should acknowledge how crucial investment in our youth is. It is always going to help us down the line if we educate, prevent and provide support. That is what all the witnesses do collectively and I thank them. Our seven minutes fly past. I will start with Ms Kelly of Belong To. I want to acknowledge how adverse childhood experiences have long-term effects on our young people, particularly those who are from the LGBT+ communities. They have the added impact of perhaps homophobic or transphobic issues to deal with. How can we ensure that the strategy will give communities of interest like hers a central role in implementing actions relating to her communities? Second, Belong To played a bit role in the previous strategy. Have it been involved in consultation on this one? If not, what would Ms Kelly like to see in the strategy to provide support for your community?

Ms Carmel Walsh:

One of the biggest areas we look for support in is the holistic approach to supporting young people. It is looking at education and training of professionals, reflecting the LGBTQ+ inclusion strategy, which highlights the direct need for training on issues specific to LGBTQ+ young people. Another thing, reflecting what Mr. Ferron was saying, is investment in youth work and into youth services, providing long-term solutions to preventative youth work as well. That involves multi-annual funding for youth services, not just funding Government-based work but looking at investment in capital and infrastructure as well.

Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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I turn to the NBI. When we talk about prevention, the old mantra clearly does not work. What are the best models for prevention? Drug-related intimidation is a massive problem right across all communities. It has a very serious impact on young people. What could or should be done to tackle the causes and consequences of that? What can we do?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

On the model, I am very interested to hear some of what the task force is involved in. The escape room sounds particularly interesting. I am looking forward to hearing more about that. From a youth work perspective more generally, we would be of the view that the relationship is fundamental to work with young people and supporting them, and ultimately to connecting and understanding what is going on for them. Sometimes we can be quick to say we will do this activity or have that programme. While there is merit in that, the fundamental precursor is to be able to demonstrate to that young person that you understand what is going on for them, can hear what they have to say, and have an appreciation for their experience. Whatever particular approach is used, that will be the basis for the efficacy of the programme or model.

On drug-related intimidation, this is difficult. There are people more qualified in this room today who could speak to that. What we have found in my most recent employment in north Dublin was that it was an issue that was causing huge difficulty for young people. It can appear sometimes that young people are making a choice that is just black and white about whether or not to get involved in things that we might say are not in their best interest. However, things are a lot more nuanced than that. There are huge pressures in terms of cost of living, financial pressures. There is this sense of hopelessness as well for some young people, particularly as it relates to how they see their future going. There is a status that we need to acknowledge. It is the case and what we have found through various programmes, including the detached programmes, that young people are interested in talking about it but it is not always straightforward to walk away fro it. That is particularly difficult. I am aware that there are a number of programmes out there for families, including the DRIVE programme, which is having some success. It is an issue that probably requires a bespoke local response. It is not going to be straightforward.

Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Maher spoke about the changing use of different types of drugs by young people in particular. How have the challenges and needs of the canal community changed, not just around the specific types of drugs, but what other challenges have they faced? It looks as though the drugs task force has been undermined in some ways over recent years. How can the role be strengthened? Could Ms Maher also comment on drug-related intimidation? She touched on it and it affects everybody right across all areas.

Ms Leanne Maher:

The challenges young people are facing really come back to mental health supports. That is what we are seeing from youth services and young people and families. There is a lack of support there for families. It needs to be wraparound support as well. If you offer support for the young person, there needs to be support for the family too, for parents. We know young people have moved to vaping HHC now. From what I know about it, it stays in the body a lot longer than normal cannabis would. We are seeing psychosis and stuff like that. It is devastating for young people. Young people are telling me there are new alternatives to HHC. There is HHCP and HHCO. They know first. Also what I hear is that young people return to spice as well, in the absence of HHC. It goes on. At the minute we are aware that young people from the age of 14 up are using ketamine. It is a minefield of a playing field. It can be difficult working with the schools, because they have a curriculum to follow but also I have a role in different areas as well, so timing can be challenging. I am one person and can only do what I can do. It might mean young people might not be getting the same service, curriculum and education.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The Deputy is over time. Before we move on, does anybody want to know what the escape room is so we are not eating into anyone's time? Members are indicating they would like to know. We are all fascinated.

Ms Leanne Maher:

As part of drug and alcohol awareness week, I was working with Core Youth Service, with Carol Hyland as the manager there. We decided to take a different approach to young people and substance use. We developed an escape room. There were four rooms: a cannabis room, a vaping room, an alcohol room and a nitrous oxide room. Everybody knows what an escape room is; there are clues and puzzles. It is all information-based. They are picking up information without realising it. The idea is that they have to collect one key message from each room and take it to the next room and so on. The four messages are collected and then they come to me in the debrief room. It is very intense. They have to come in and write up their answers really quick. That is when their timing is stopped.

We had amazing conversations in the debrief room. The young people were so open and honest about what was going on for them. We were able to deal with harm reduction. We were able to give them information so they can make informed decisions about themselves. I did not take a stance that drugs are bad and not to do them. It was very much a case that these are their choices and decisions, and that I would not be there and their parents or youth workers would not be there, so when these choices are put to them it is they who will have to decide, and the best thing we can do for them is to give them all of the information that we can.

They were very successful and they went well. We ran them for three days and we had 187 young people go through them. I have some information. We had before and after quizzes. For the before quiz, the young people did not have the information and for the after quiz, they had all of the information. These quizzes were not only on the four drugs we worked on and they were able to ask about other things. They were able to ask about ketamine and we were able to warn them about the dangers there. They went really well.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am glad this question was asked as I was going to do so and then all my time would have been gone. Ms Maher's face lit up when she was telling us about it. This is what working with young people is all about. I know it is easy for us sometimes to sit here and thank people for the work they do because it can sound patronising but we do really mean it. It is so important. I married a youth worker and he ran a drug education and prevention programme for years out in Blanchardstown with young boys in football. I know the value of it. I also know how empowered young people feel and this is exactly what Ms Maher was doing with the escape rooms. She was empowering them to make their own decisions.

I want to ask about the youth voice which Ms Maher mentioned in her opening statement. It is so important this voice is heard and comes across in this hearing. Will Ms Maher give us an idea of what young people feel is the landscape for them and the supports they are getting or not getting? Youth workers and task forces do their best but how do the young people feel?

Ms Leanne Maher:

From the conversations I have with young people, unfortunately there is a lot of hopelessness out there. This can be quite detrimental to how young people try to cope with life and the situations they might face. The youth services in my area do amazing work. The youth service teams have amazing staff who go above and beyond. The family support worker I spoke about is amazing but she is across three services. She has only a couple of hours at each service. It is the same with the well-being worker. She has six hours between each service, which is not enough. There are waiting lists for mental health supports. There is definitely a lot more room for improvement, including community resources and having activities in communities that are subsidised. Private activities are great but not all families can access them. We need recreational options for young people that they can access.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Ms Maher also mentioned the pandemic, which added to all of the challenges and changed the way we all live our lives. It was not only young people who were looking for outlets and were suddenly stuck in bedrooms and could not go anywhere. It definitely brought an awful lot more challenges. How have things changed in terms of young people presenting? How has the delivery of a service changed? Has the funding changed? It was an enormous upheaval to all our lives. During the height of the lockdown, I was really conscious of young people who were already suffering beforehand, either with addiction or mental health, and how the closing in of their world would have made this so much worse. Ms Maher spoke about self-medication and coping skills. A lot of the time this is why young people turn to drugs. How much has changed? Does the funding reflect the extra need?

Ms Leanne Maher:

I would say no, the funding does not reflect the extra need. I work across all the services and I see the needs that are there. I have conversations with staff where they are stretched beyond their limit and there are no more resources to support people in the community. There is a lot of anxiety out there among young people. There is a lot of social anxiety and being in physical spaces again is tough for young people. This is why mental health supports are so important. We need to get in before they have to figure out how to cope themselves. Experimenting with drugs is supposed to be a rite of passage to be done later in life. They should not be there just so that people are trying to get through the day.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am conscious that all of my questions are for Ms Maher but so much of what she said resonated. HHC is something else because I raised it several weeks ago with the Department. As soon as the new legislation came in, there was an alternative immediately on the market. It is really hard to keep up with this. It is impossible. For this committee, because Ms Maher is working and hearing from young people, how do we tackle this? I do not know how to keep up with this stuff. It just keeps evolving and it is way ahead of the pace of change.

Ms Leanne Maher:

It is a difficult one. I ran the escape rooms a second time and I spoke to young people who were not even aware that HHC is synthetic. They are not aware there are extra dangers. We need to get in and educate them. Online is where young people are so we need to do health campaigns around this type of stuff. It is happening and it is there, and we need to be not afraid to have the conversations.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Ms Walsh is nodding and I know she works with young people as well. Does she want to add anything to this?

Ms Carmel Walsh:

We have harm reduction information campaigns during Pride month because there are young people we cannot reach through our direct youth service, especially at national level. These campaigns are so informative and it is important to reach young people on their phones and where they are in their rooms. Something that comes up for us a lot is supporting parents and guardians. We set up a family support service last April and from April to December, we had over 450 direct engagements with families, parents, guardians and foster carers looking for support.

We also have a partnership with Pieta House, which looks at supporting LGBTQ+ young people at risk of suicidal ideation and self-harm. What comes back to us from this partnership is that for a lot of young people, their mental health has been affected by the mental health of their parents. We need a holistic approach to supporting young people, including supporting their parents and their communities and having safe spaces where they can go. It is about investment in the youth sector and having a holistic approach to supporting young people from all different areas in society because it affects all of their mental health.

According to our research on being LGBTQ+I in Ireland last year, 76% of young people from the ages of 14 to 18 have experienced self-harm or suicidal ideation. These are statistics we identified last year. It is really prevalent with regard to the mental health needs of young people, not just LGBTQ+ young people but young people in society. It is up to us to reflect the Young Ireland policy and strategies on this and focus on mental health but also to look at the LGBTQ+ inclusion strategy and how we can have a cross-departmental and supportive approach to this.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The cross-departmental element is very important.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. When we had our first couple of sessions we had departmental officials before us and they spoke about a national campaign on HHC and the spend they had for it. Could we get an update on where they are with that?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes, we will certainly write to the Department on that.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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It should be targeted at young people with young graphics because they are not going to look at the departmental stuff. Youth workers consistently emphasise safe spaces, safe relationships, recreational opportunities and stable relationships. How can we embed this? How can it be embedded in policy at a national level as a safeguarding mechanism when we speak about these issues?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

We would struggle to find anyone involved in youth work who would not welcome more substantial capital investment in youth spaces and youth centres. As I mentioned earlier, from our perspective, this is about investing in our future. It is about investing in young people and our future workforce.

Sometimes people might look at it as being about removing risk and danger, and it will do that, but it is also about creating spaces for young people to be, to belong and to thrive. I would say it requires will. It requires a kind of political will and a commitment to that and maybe a reframing of what is important. There are other ways. There is the example of how you cannot give every centre a bus and there is that idea that maybe we need to work together or think a little about it. That is where that idea of the hubs might be a way of thinking about the issue of youth spaces. Vacant spaces in towns and cities around Ireland could be repurposed, shared and have a focus not just on youth work but health programmes, drug prevention and education programmes and various other supports. That is an approach that could be looked at by way of maybe making the cost a bit more manageable, but it is about prioritising young people and prioritising those spaces. Providing safe spaces for young people is even more important now when we think of what is going on online, when we talk about social isolation and mental health and it is committed to in various ways and different strategies so really we are just encouraging to follow through and implement that with a commitment.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

Just to follow up on that, Belong To, in partnership with some other youth organisations and services in Ireland and Dublin City Council, are looking at developing a Dublin youth hub as well. It is at very early discussion stages, but we have found is a lot of young people, especially from our service who are LGBTQ+, are scared to come into the city centre now. They are not coming to our groups because they are scared of finishing a group at 8 p.m. and having to walk home. We are looking at trying to develop a Dublin youth hub that young people from all parts of Dublin can come to no matter whether they are LGBTQ+, from a migrant background or from working-class Dublin, so everyone can come to a space that is a safe space and a drop-in. We are looking at consultation and we are really hoping this is something we can move forward with in the coming years as well. During the riots a couple of years ago we had young people trapped in a building until 2 a.m., when we could safely get them home. These are the realities on the ground. We always joke about risk assessment and having the worst risks on our risk assessments but these are realities we have to face and have to be aware of when working in Dublin city centre. To have those safe spaces is vital for those young people to be able to come into town. To see young people back in town would be amazing. It would be a space for them to go where they would be welcome, safe and where they could be themselves.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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That sounds great. I, and I am sure other members, would love to hear how that would work and how it could be replicated. I live in a rural constituency where youth services are very few and far between, so sometimes it is even harder. If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community in a rural setting, and all that comes with that, it can sometimes be harder still.

Should the committee recommend formalised partnerships between Youthreach, schools, drug task forces and youth services to ensure the message is consistent and there is a clear referral pathway? All these people are key players in drug prevention and education. Do the witnesses think it would be of use that they would come together and there would be a pathway at each level, maybe? Like they said, schools cannot do everything, nor can Youthreach or the local drug task force.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

That is probably happening on the ground in many cases. It could be underpinned by exploring whether a strategy would help formalise that and provide structures, but in practice you find there is a very good collaborative working relationship in many communities between school personnel, school completion programmes, home school community liaison, youth workers and justice workers, Youthreach projects and training co-ordinators.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Ferron think though that if that was formalised, the funding could look much better? There would be a pathway so people would know what funding they would have, or maybe get an increase in it. I do not know how to put this in a correct way.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

Is the Senator thinking about accessing school or accessing third level?

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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I mean the access to it, access to funding and a level playing field for all these stakeholders, because some might get more. For instance, Dublin will get a lot more than Cork and little rural community projects will get a lot less, but if there was a streamlined framework for everybody, maybe it would be easier, on our behalf, to fight for that extra funding.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

The National Youth Council of Ireland welcomes that youth work has moved back into the Department of Education and Youth. That is a positive development. It opens up the possibility of more collaboration and structures in that regard. As to what kind of framework could be put in place to make that work more efficiently, I would be very interested in seeing that. We as a sector are exploring ways in which we can support young people to access and stay in school with different programmes. Similarly, as I said, we work closely with other educational partners. If there were to be a framework to support that in terms of funding and resources, we would absolutely be interested in exploring that.

Ms Rachael Treanor:

Not all young people who are living in those circumstances will go on to use substances. A lot of them actually are very against it, but when it comes down to peer pressure and social isolation, it is about trying to support them to develop those core competencies so they are confident in themselves and have the self-esteem and the awareness to know. It comes back down to what everybody has spoken about, which is the community element. It is about allowing them to have access to activities and hobbies within their local community so they have an alternative or that they can escape the environment they are in. It goes beyond youth work and sport into coding, music and arts and crafts. It is about that alternative so a young person who has an interest in something has it within their community and can access it. It is about bringing it all back to that local environment as well.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

We know from research familial rejection can cause an increase in substance abuse among LGBTQ+ young people, so it is really about providing that holistic support by supporting parents and guardians. We have calls from parents who do not know where to start. They do not know what is the beginning and what is the end, because there is a journey for the whole family as well. It really is about having that supportive approach and providing the tools and skills for them to be competent in supporting their young person and having it in a safe and supportive environment so they can ask the questions they might be scared to ask. It is a challenge for families to try to get it right, with their intersectional needs that could be there as well.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

It definitely feels like, in many cases, it is probably a little bit more bespoke than more general awareness. We are looking at the family circumstance and potentially there could be trauma. There is certainly a significant amount of need. My experience has been that where those types of family support services are available, they sometimes have the capacity to work more intensively with the family unit and they can yield very significant results. However, we find in many cases that weed becomes a primary coping mechanism for young people in those circumstances. It is very normalised.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

The funding is to cover ten-year-olds to 24-year-olds, so it does cover the early adult phase. The question is where to put the cut-off. We find people who have just gone over the age but still need support. At the moment, it is probably set at about the right age and then, maybe at a local level specific to the need, people can be supported or signposted to other services.

Ms Brenda Kelly:

Those questions link into this answer because we have recognised the issue of ageing out for a long time. Similar to what Mr. Ferron said, we work with young people aged from ten to 23. We were seeing that when they were turning 23 it was a very abrupt ending and they did not know where to go from that point. We are in the middle of developing an ageing-out project with young people, which is based on their needs. The idea is that they would age out naturally. We are doing this in partnership with Outhouse LGBTQ+ Centre. The idea would be for young people to start dipping their toes into both services before they fully age out, but also with external support such as libraries and sports clubs. This is linking them in with external services, so when they are aged out of Belong To they are not cut from all their social supports. In terms of family support in ageing out, as far as I am aware, our family support service does not have a cut-off point. We support parents and guardians of LGBTQ+ people of any age. They do not have to be within our age range, so parents can ring if they have a concern about their 40-year-old son.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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My apologies for being late. Unfortunately, I was caught up in a matter in the Dáil. One of the issues that has been mentioned is new drugs becoming available and getting information out about the danger of them. Could we do a lot more in that area? When we get information back, do we have the structures for getting the information out and warning of the dangers? For instance, we have done this very effectively at festivals. A sampling process has been set up at some festivals and it has worked really well in getting the word out that a particular product available at the event may be dangerous. Overall, should we do more on this and how can we set up the structures to make sure we get the information out?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Who would like to jump in first?

Ms Brenda Kelly:

I think we definitely could be doing more. As Ms Maher said previously, a lot of the concerns we hear come directly from young people and that is often the first time we even hear about a new substance or a stronger one. We need to have more awareness campaigns. As far as I know, the only awareness campaign for nitrous oxide was done by Dublin City Council last year. While it was a great campaign, we need more, especially for a drug that is so prevalent among young people. I know drugs.ie has a similar debate on nitrous oxide at the minute, but I do not think anyone is doing a campaign to highlight how prevalent it is and the risk it poses for young people.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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It is about getting information out about new items on the market that are dangerous. Do we have enough mechanisms in place to get the information out in a timely manner?

Ms Brenda Kelly:

No, not among the youth services.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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How do we set up a structure like that to get the information out?

Ms Brenda Kelly:

We do not have it in the youth sector but we have it in drug services. I do not really know how we could do that. I think we would need a more streamlined committee. The representatives of the NYCI might want to add something on this.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

There is something here about recognising the online space that young people inhabit and the impact of social influencers and how access to drugs has become easier. Some of the traditional barriers to drugs' acquisition have been removed and there is probably space for a digital-type strategy that would target awareness in a way that we have not really looked into. There is definitely capacity for that.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Is there a need to set up something to deal with this issue?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

Yes, absolutely. There is a recognition that there is a range of risks in relation to online engagement for young people, and access to substances is just one of them. It could be part of a multi-pronged approach. There are local and national campaigns through national youth work organisations and there are health promotion campaigns. There is also the work that the task force is doing. However, I think there is a gap regarding the digital element that we could look at.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Has there been any proposal put together on that as regards it being presented to the Departments of justice or health or the HSE? Has there been any engagement with those Departments or the HSE on this matter?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

There may have been, but I am aware of any. I might defer to Ms Maher on that for a task force perspective.

Ms Leanne Maher:

I echo what Mr. Ferron said about the online spaces. We need to use the spaces where young people are. They need to be quick, really short messages giving the right information. It is important that we get the right messages to give as well. I also agree that there should be some sort of sharing system among youth services for when new substances appear. This happens quickly and we need to be able to share information with professionals, so that we can provide information to young people when these things come out.

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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What about getting the information to schools, especially secondary schools? Is there sufficient capacity to deal with the issue in schools?

Ms Leanne Maher:

For me, if I become aware of something, I keep the schools that I work with informed, but that is just me in my own role. How other task force members do that I am not sure. Some task force areas have a lot more skills than I have. It can be quite difficult for a person who has a number of skills in their area to be the one person who is trying to inform everybody.

If we had a centralised system whereby these messages could be delivered straight away, that would be amazing.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. I thank them for their contributions. I apologise for being in and out of the meeting. That is just the madness of this place.

We are dealing with an element of madness when we talk about drugs and young people, whether it is people taking nitrous oxide or those who move on to other substances and who, in some cases, fall into really bad addiction. Youth work can provide an intervention that people do not necessarily see as an intervention. It is about reaching the most difficult-to-reach cases. No more than football teams and everything else, there are people who are absolutely removed from everything. It is about safe spaces and whatever. What can be done? We need a real conversation, as I have said before, about this entire issue and about resources.

This is a multi-Department and interagency issue, and the idea is that everybody who is needed is tied in. Sometimes that does not happen. If there are deficiencies in whatever service, it is about making sure they are filled. From the witnesses' point of view, what can be done for, in particular, those who may have problematic home lives? While a pile of organisations and agencies have responsibility, we need to catch as many people as possible and provide them with supports. The vital thing is how to signpost when dealing with a young person who has fallen into addiction and-or has started to do runs for a local drug dealer. Unfortunately, those in the age bracket we are talking are getting younger all the time.

Ms Brenda Kelly:

That comes under the LGBT national inclusion strategy. Part of that refers to the need for safe spaces outside of the LGBT sector for LGBT young people and people in general. Health services and social services are named within that. That is something we embed and belong to as well. Much of our work involves creating safe spaces in established sectors for members of the LGBT community. We do that through training, education and working with the services. We have 18-month programmes for schools and youth services. We have a new programme for the homeless sector. It is about working with the services to make sure their policies, practices and spaces are inclusive of LGBT identities.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

In terms of signposting, it is about working in local areas and looking at the meitheal approach to the young person. Where are their local services? For us, maybe it is referring them on to the services in their local areas.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Meitheal probably falls down in relation to the deficiencies that exist in all services at the moment. There is a need for a proper review.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

In any youth service, there is always a large turnover of staffing. In any social or community sector now, there is a lot of turnover. Finding the right people to go to and to refer to, who know you and who can work, can be a challenge.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Not losing relationships and institutional memory is vital.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

I am aware of projects which set out to target those hard-to-reach young people. Ostensibly, and this is obviously relevant to the committee, the focus was on young people at risk or involved in drug use or in drug-dealing behaviour. When that was being set up, it was about providing a consistent presence with consistent staff members across the week and at evenings and weekends, looking to build a relationship and getting to be known. Some of it was about trying to offer something to young people who, in many cases, were making a conscious decision not to engage in youth work or anything else and who were likely to be regarded as not in education, employment or training, NEET. For the most part, they were, from their own perspective, at work doing what they were doing and tied to certain places at certain times. That relationship took months to develop, to get a sense of where young people were at and for the detached youth work team not to be seen as a threat.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You cannot be the guards in another guise.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

No. It needs to be a very different role, and they need to walk that line very carefully. That is where the aspect of non-judgment comes in. As a result of that, young people have reached out and got involved in training courses and activities they had not been involved in the past. In some cases, they have got employment through that. What was particularly encouraging was that we had a young person who spoke of a younger sibling who was getting involved. They could not see a way out yet, but they were concerned about a younger sibling and almost made a referral.

There is another cohort which we do not see on the streets. That is possibly a legacy of Covid. They spend a lot of time at home, have social anxiety and may or may not be self-medicating a little. That is where the relationships with those partners are quite important. I refer to people in schools who are aware that a person has not come in. In many cases, it might be social workers who might get in touch. There is capacity, subject to resources, among youth workers to reach out and make a connection in a way some other agents of the State cannot.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We need a comprehensive set of interventions, but there is a specific one Mr. Ferron's organisation can do which others cannot. We must fill in as many of the gaps as possible and catch as many young people as possible. This will never be perfect but it can be much better.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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At the end of the seven-month period, the committee will have to deliver its report. What pitfalls should we avoid when we are talking about young people? I am very conscious of politicians talking about young people.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You used to be a young person.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Many years ago. What pitfalls should we avoid when we are talking about young people?

Mr. Mick Ferron:

Has the committee talked to young people? Has it had young people in here?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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These are the questions we are asking.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

That might be good.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Definitely. We have invited young people and they will be here. What else do the witnesses see in their work? When we have a report in our hands after nine months of discussing young people, substance misuse, substance use and everything else, what should we do to avoid being patronising or repeating the mistakes of the past? How can we do better?

Ms Leanne Maher:

We need to recognise that young people know much more than we give them credit for. They see it all on the ground every day. From the perspective of parents, it can be nerve-racking as to when they have the conversation. They do not want to be giving young people ideas. We need to recognise that young people are living this life and know what is going on. They know much more than we do.

Ms Rachael Treanor:

It is about speaking to young people on the ground. This is their reality. We will always be playing catch-up with them, especially when it comes to substances. They are very open and honest in letting us know what exactly they need and what is impacting on them. Instead of making assumptions or putting it on them, we should get their real-life experiences because they will speak and be very truthful about what their needs are.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

It is identified that there is an intersectionality of needs for young people. It might be substance misuse but it might also be mental health. A holistic approach to the solution is really important to look at.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

I do not know that it would be missed but it is worth acknowledging what is working well, the achievements, the protective factors and the celebration of what young people are doing right from the perspective of the report. Substance misuse is an issue but in many cases, young people are managing very well under the circumstances that they find themselves in.

Ms Carmel Walsh:

It is also about having harm reduction and early prevention at the core as well, in terms of the report, and having that lens when working with young people or writing reports about this. Sometimes, it is difficult to measure the impact of preventative programmes on young people because we cannot say that we stopped X many young people from drug misuse. What we can do is say that we have actually engaged, increased people's competency, increased their literacy around drug use, and stuff like that. It is about having that lens of the preventative side of it.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I will ask a question but I know the answer to it. Has youth work got harder in the last five to ten years? I worked in a youth work facility, the old Lourdes Youth and Community Services, LYCS, 12 years ago in Dublin. The role of the youth worker now seems infinitely more difficult, or maybe I am just getting older, but what happened to make it so?

Ms Rachael Treanor:

It is definitely getting harder. There is more complexity of need. It has turned very much into a sort of intervention-based work because there is no access for young people to services. The youth workers are sort of like a holding space now. Young people are waiting to see CAMHS or another mental health service and they cannot get access to it quickly enough, so they are coming to the youth work organisations because they have that relationship with the youth worker and they can have a conversation with them. As Mr. Ferron said, it is a place where they are not judged and where they can be challenged constructively. They are still waiting to see the appointment for whatever it is, be it for social issues or mental health, so it is a lot more complex than what it was traditionally. The youth workers are being upskilled in youth mental health first aid, for example. We are trying to roll out that training because it helps the youth worker to make that brief intervention and keep that young person where they are at so that it does then turn into a treatment plan for them, or maybe they cannot get access to services.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I represent the city centre Dublin constituency and I am forever finding myself, not so much falling into a trap, but calling too often for more gardaí around the area for a variety of reasons, some of which are very legitimate. What would happen if we called for more youth workers and more and better investment in youth workers? I am conscious that the types of issue we are dealing with include kids on mopeds, scooters and all of those things, including drug-related crime. Should I be calling for more youth workers? If I call for more youth workers, will the witnesses tell the committee what that would actually mean in terms of addressing some of the issues?

Ms Carmel Walsh:

It is important to have more youth workers but it is also important to have a call for good employment and contracts for the youth workers who come in. A lot of youth workers are getting yearly contracts. Funding is year by year as well, so we do not know from one year to next if we will have funding. This is not sustainable for youth workers in terms of a professional pathway. It is also about the validation and recognition of youth work as a professional field. One of the challenges with the past ten years is that we are still trying to justify and explain what youth work is to all aspects of society.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Should we do that? Should that be part of our report in calling out what youth work is?

Ms Carmel Walsh:

Yes. We constantly have to showcase what we are and, sometimes, what we are not in terms of what we do. I think we need to be showing the value of youth work to people. That would bring more people into the workforce but it would also improve the investment in capital, wages for youth workers and the quality of work that we deliver to young people.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

It is probably similar in other sectors, but the recruitment and retention of youth workers is a particularly acute challenge at the moment. Why more youth workers? We would access more young people, open centres for more evenings and be able to deal with more complex issues. Youth work has proven itself - I am sure many of the members know this - to be a kind of approach that can engage with young people more effectively than most others just by dint of the fact of the relationship and an understanding of the kind of personal development need that exists. We are talking about substance use today, but we are all aware of the tensions that are going on in communities, the mental health issues and the cost of living. There are increasingly complex needs. Even with the young people presenting themselves, there are increased levels of neurodiverse young people coming in looking for services. We are trying to do all of that with the same level of funding, but it is proving quite challenging.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses. My time is up, so we will move on to the second round of questions.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Walsh and Mr. Ferron for saying that retention and recruitment was the single biggest issue. What flows from that is the lack of professionalisation of youth work. Youth workers are doing an incredibly valuable job that touches many different areas of society, not just the young person, family, school or community, but also everything else, including mental health, employment and the contribution that young people can make. All of that is before we even get to the issue of drugs. We absolutely need to make a recommendation. That pertains to my earlier question about the funding. I have been a voluntary director of a youth service for 14 years. We do not know from year to year what our funding is. We are employing people on very precarious terms. We are incredibly lucky to have the people we have working with young people. The funding arrangement is not good enough, so it has to be a strong recommendation from us.

As the witnesses have said, youth work is built on trust and relationships. It is only when there is trust and a relationship that a young person opens up, and quite rightly, because they are at a stage in their life when they are making conscious and critical decisions about everything and about everybody they meet, so why would they not? We need to invest in it and it will pay back in spades.

Cabra for Youth was one of the first to get one of the BeLonG To rainbow awards. It took a bit of effort for us to get that, and we are very proud. At the time, I think there were about six or nine youth services in the country. Has that number increased and if not, what will it take for it to increase? It is really valuable when a youth service gets that award because it sends a signal that this is an inclusive space for everybody. If every youth service in every organisation that had young people using, engaging with or being a member of it had that award, it would send a really strong signal in every school and every club that the organisation was inclusive. What is the barrier?

Ms Carmel Walsh:

Funding is one barrier. It comes back again to funding. We are delivering the rainbow awards through fundraising from the public. Currently, I believe that 28 organisations have gone through the process, which is amazing. I wish I had the figures on me now but I think we have trained 260 youth workers this year. We have recruited another ten for this round or cycle as well. For people who do not know about the rainbow awards, it is an 18-month process where we look at the organisations as a whole in terms of how inclusive they are to LGBTQ+ youth work. For us, it is really important that young people have access to LGBTQ+ youth work all across Ireland. When BeLonG To started 22 years ago, people used to come up from Mayo, Kerry and all of these areas to attend the LGBTQ+ youth space in Dublin. For us, and without putting ourselves out of a job, it is about having spaces for young people in their local areas that they can attend. The rainbow awards support youth workers in having an inclusive approach. They look at residential policies, what policies organisations have on, for example, inclusion and diversity, and taking a critical lens to the approach to LGBTQ+ youth work. We would love to expand the awards each year and have 30 or 40 organisations per year, but in terms of resourcing capacity, we can only do ten to 15 per year. It has been a fantastic opportunity. I can send on to the committee some of the impacts. We will have an event in January where we will award the people and organisations that went through this year. It has been fantastic for people to feel confident in working on LGBTQ+ topics and not feel like they do not know how. At the end of the day, this is about young people. This is a great opportunity for organisations to celebrate that as well.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, well done. It is empowering for the organisations and incredibly valuable for the young people and the wider community. It would be useful for the committee if, in time, Ms Walsh came back to us with details of the additional funding that would be required. This model is in place and is working, so we should promote it and look for funding for it. Similarly, Ms Walsh said she was trying to get to the bottom of the funding changes. I have been trying to do the same thing, in regard to what was announced in the budget and what is actually going to come through. If progress were made with that, it would be useful for us because we need to call for a significant uplift in funding for youth services.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I absolutely agree. Does Deputy Colm Burke want to have a second round?

Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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No.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I have a short question. In regard to the real-time trends of substance abuse, we all accept there is a massive need for greater funding and resources for prevention and awareness. If we take the case of nitrous oxide when that emerged, we knew about it locally and could respond locally with our youth service. If I am wrong in this, I would like to know. Is there a mechanism to alert the HSE in real-time? It could be something as simple as an email address for youth workers, members of the community, drugs task forces and so on to alert the HSE that, for instance, they are seeing a massive spike in whatever at this location. Does that exist?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Does it?

Ms Leanne Maher:

In our community, if we are experiencing a rise in the use of some substance, we will report it.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Is there any feedback?

Ms Leanne Maher:

We generally would get feedback. It depends on the information the HSE has and can provide us with. That will sometimes take time. However, the HSE sends out alerts as well if there are substances that are new on the scene. We get alerts but it would be up to the task force to deal with that.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Are the resources in place to do that?

Ms Leanne Maher:

We try our best.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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There are methods of communication to users.

Ms Leanne Maher:

We would definitely keep in communication with all the services with which we work.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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In regard to capturing the young person's voice, the messaging and communications are very important. It is challenging for adults to try to design messaging to young people. I speak as a parent and I consider myself a good communicator. Is that best done locally? Is there potential for some sort of centralised method? I am struck by our youth services. For example, Dublin City Council comes with a plan, maybe for a playground or skate park. It might engage with some very young people. The local authority may have put a lot of work into designing what it thought would be a valuable space, and a significant budget would have been put aside for it. When put to the young people, however, they might say what they really are looking for is just a space of their own. As a result, the plan is not fit for purpose. There was no bad intention; it was all good intentions. How do we best get the young people's voice in? Is that at the local level or can something be done in the centre?

Ms Leanne Maher:

Young people want to speak. If they are asked, they will tell us. When we are talking about safe youth spaces, while youth work programmes are important, there is also the issue of just space to be.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Just to be - is that it?

Ms Leanne Maher:

Just to sit there with friends, have a coke or a juice.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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That is the thing that is missing most. Young people are not adults yet, but they are not kids any more. They just want to be themselves, without being overlooked, instructed or criticised. It is similar to what Ms Maher said about the programme. It is not necessarily about having a programme, but about understanding what they want to do and talk about.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

In relation to the quality youthwork practice, it is the case that we should be starting from a place that is youth centred. The cornerstone of that is asking and engaging with young people about what it is they want. If that is going on effectively, as it should, when making decisions about spaces, programmes and activities you will be very much holding that view and that voice.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I am sitting in rapt attention here at the back. I am from Meath East. I thank the witnesses for the immeasurable work they do with young people. I have previously been a county councillor. I have been a member of the North Eastern Regional Drug and Alcohol Task Force. I had a lot of interaction with fantastic youth diversion workers in County Meath. They provide a fantastic service. I have a question on the escape rooms. Is there a template?

Ms Leanne Maher:

We are trying to develop it further but it is resource heavy. I am only one person. We are looking at doing it again, to try to make them into a toolkit or something. We have looked at that kind of thing but because the props are so valuable to the actual experience, that can be quite difficult as well. We are still working on it.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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By way of information, I passed on a note there. Comhairle na nÓg is like the youth version of county councils. The former joint policing committees are now community safety partnerships. Probably two years ago, just after lockdown, we interacted with the Meath Comhairle na nÓg. It chose a project every two to three years. The feedback from the members, from all the young people, was not quite that they wanted the bejaypers scared out of themselves but they wanted to know the harms of all the different substances. They made a video and I will link in and get that information. We have a drugs task force and a board of management meeting online tonight, so I will get that information. I will check the permission and share it with the secretariat. Many thanks. If ever a hand is needed on the scaling up of the escape room, please count me in. I will try to attend as many as I can.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The Deputy will be very welcome.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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The area is close to my heart, so if I can get in, I will.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Any time I am offered a mic I never refuse it. This was a very worthwhile engagement. It is worth reinforcing the point that there has to be real engagement with young people, as opposed to with me and Deputy Gannon. Remembering when I was young, I am not sure how representative I was of anybody back then. Deputy Toole mentioned that as well.

I have seen a fair amount of youth projects and youth workers. Some of the work that works best is when there are really good relationships, whether that is with the youth diversion projects or at some other level. Multiple projects are working out of them. Everybody is aware and then you have multiple referrals, not just those coming through from the Garda. We are now dealing with kids at an earlier stage and seeing some element of success. There are not enough resources and that includes everything else that is needed and family supports. I want to ask the witnesses about their engagements, be they with agencies or other projects such as justice-funded projects and so on. It is about us coming up with best practice so that we can have this in as many places as possible. That is necessary. Youth work is not a silo.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

The National Youth Council of Ireland is a representative body.

We serve our member organisations. It is my experience and understanding that what the Deputy is referring to develops quite organically on the ground. In many cases, youth organisations and youth service providers host Garda youth diversion projects. There are various different networks, most recently including the community safety partnerships, where youth work providers and others come together. I do not know if there is one set model because a lot of it is based on professional relationships. Where there are long-established relationships in local communities between key persons-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There can also be catch-all services that cover everything from providing meals to kids before and after school - I am sorry; the term "breakfast club" escaped me - right through to youth diversion projects and even, in some cases, probation at a distance. I do not want to focus on justice but there are a whole pile of services provided. You can see the success of that but it is a question of more and better.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

It will be no surprise to anyone here that the most successful interventions are based on that quality of collaboration. Some areas in the city and the country more widely are fortunate enough to have lots of those services at their disposal and people in those services who are keen and willing to work together. In other areas, particularly rural areas, there might not be as many options. That is something we are mindful of. It is about the local context specific to an area and depends on the services there. Generally speaking, it is the position of youth work providers that, where it is at all possible, you should work hand in glove with partners in education services and health services to deliver better outcomes for young people.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know I am over time but I am just going to keep talking.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I will allow that within reason.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As the witnesses said earlier, when you engage, the big thing is the complexity of issues. Tusla came before the committee on children earlier. The representatives spoke about Tusla and the organisations it referred people to. We also met a number of those organisations at the committee and they said that the number of referrals from Tusla was through the roof and that they had to deal with those. There is so much complexity, and there are so many cases, including where early intervention did not happen, that it has become a question of child protection, never mind support. It is like the witnesses said. Services are, to a degree, just holding cases at the minute. Does Mr. Ferron get that sense across the organisations the National Youth Council of Ireland is involved with? I am talking about both complexity and Tusla referrals.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

Yes. It is absolutely the case that increased complexity has resulted in more child protection referrals. It is also the case that-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is then a reliance on the community and voluntary sector. Those in the sector have said that themselves.

Mr. Mick Ferron:

There is. There is also something there about minding professional boundaries and making sure we are focused on our core work. This is obviously not the primary consideration, but when you make a referral out of concern for a young person, you sometimes take the risk that it might jeopardise that family's relationship with the service. You think that, if you do this, it could lead to the family pulling back from the service. Depending on what Tusla is in a position to provide, that young person might go without service intervention.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a support rather than-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I am very sorry but I am going to have to stop the Deputy. I am very conscious that our witnesses have been here for two hours. I have to bring the meeting to a close. I hope the Deputy will not hold it against me.

I thank the witnesses very much. They can see from the enthusiasm of the members how much their work is admired. I hope they will see that in the document we deliver at the end of this consideration. We will be suggesting policy and budgetary measures to make their work a lot easier and that will match our admiration. I thank the witnesses for coming in and guiding us with their expertise.