Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 27 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Apprenticeships - Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Maeve O'Connell and Senator Laura Harmon.
All are welcome. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their mics when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
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Witnesses in the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make at the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action or anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses, or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Apprenticeships are on the agenda for the meeting. The witnesses are: Mr. Padraig Curley, president, and Mr. John Conneely, assistant general secretary, education and research, from the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland, ASTI; Ms Catríona Rodgers, president, and Ms Colette Twomey, vice-president, from the Institute of Guidance Counsellors; and Mr. Michael Gillespie, general secretary, and Ms Liz Farrell, assistant general secretary, from the Teachers Union of Ireland. They are all very welcome.
I call Mr. Curley to make his opening statement. He has five minutes.
Mr. Padraig Curley:
The ASTI is delighted to present on the lived experience of apprentices across Ireland. This conversation matters. It connects directly with the work we do every day in our classrooms, especially in the context of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, the STEM subjects, which must be properly resourced if students are to develop the confidence, skills and readiness to pursue all pathways, including apprenticeships. A strong apprenticeship system depends on a strong, wellresourced school system. Teachers are central to that.
The newly published National Apprenticeship Office, NAO, survey of 2024 provides us with the strongest set of data yet on the lived experience of apprentices. It confirms what teachers already know, namely that apprenticeships offer powerful opportunities. However, too many young people are still finding their way into them by accident rather than by design. The evidence is striking. A total of 62% of apprentices learned about their apprenticeship from family and friends, as stated in the survey. Only a small minority reported hearing about apprenticeships from guidance counsellors or teachers. This is not a reflection on our guidance colleagues. It is a reflection of a system that has not invested in guidance since the cuts, especially of 2012, and has not built the necessary infrastructure to give students full, informed access to all pathways. The ASTI has constantly argued that you cannot widen participation without properly resourcing guidance. The survey reinforces that message.
Despite these barriers, apprentices thrive when they enter their chosen fields. A total of 94% believe their apprenticeship will provide good employment opportunities; 80% are enjoying the experience; and 94% feel they contribute positively in the workplace. These are extraordinarily high satisfaction levels. They prove that apprenticeships are not a second-choice route. They are high-quality programmes that meet the needs of a wide variety of learners, including those who prefer hands-on experience or vocationally aligned study.
Alongside this success, however, lie some real challenges. A total of 38% of apprentices have seriously considered withdrawing. Financial pressures are the leading cause. Many feel overwhelmed by the study component: 39% say the academic demand is difficult and 40% struggle to keep up outside work hours. This is a reminder that every pathway requires academic, financial and personal support. There are also issues around access and equality. A total of 16% faced barriers securing an employer. Often, the biggest problem is finding an employer, which can be due to a lack of connections.
Some 7% reported discrimination, most of it in the workplace. Although 90% of female apprentices report a positive experience, only 22.5% said they were encouraged by a teacher to pursue apprenticeship routes. This reflects cultural assumptions that still shape subject choice.
For the ASTI, these findings speak to three priorities. First, career guidance must be restored and expanded. Structured guidance is not reaching enough students at the right time. These hours should be ring-fenced for guidance. Decision-making is uneven and shaped by family capital rather than equality of opportunity. ASTI policy has long argued that guidance is essential for social mobility and informed choice. This survey provides fresh evidence that investment is overdue. Second, we must challenge the myth that pathways are linear or hierarchical. Each student should have access to the full spectrum of progression routes, including further education and training, apprenticeships and higher education, without stigma or constraint. Third, the system must listen to the voices of apprentices. Their feedback on workload, mentoring, assessment and the need for modernised learning environments must shape the next stage of national policy.
Apprenticeships work, and this is supported by data, but if we want these routes to be accessible, equitable and sustainable, the system must invest in guidance, in student supports and in removing the barriers that limit choice. The ASTI will continue to advocate for an education system where every pathway is properly resourced, every learner is supported and every young person can choose their future with confidence. I thank the committee.
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
I thank the Chair, Deputies, Senators, and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak this morning. I am representing the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, IGC, the professional body for over 1,500 guidance counsellors working across post-primary, FET, higher education, private practice, and community settings, providing a holistic approach encompassing educational, social and personal, and career guidance. Our members support learners at every stage of their lives to make informed, realistic and personally meaningful education, training and career decisions. Apprenticeships form an increasingly important part of Ireland’s evolving education and skills landscape and we welcome the opportunity to contribute today.
The IGC supports the expansion of the apprenticeship system. Over the past decade, apprenticeships have evolved into high-quality work-based learning pathways with strong employment outcomes, high completion rates in many trades and growing employer engagement. They are central to meeting Ireland’s skills needs across housing, construction, digitalisation, the green transition, manufacturing, engineering and health. Young people and adults are increasingly open to considering apprenticeship pathways. Guidance counsellors see this every day. However, access to apprenticeships is uneven and learners face real information gaps.
From the IGC’s perspective, there are three recurring challenges. The first relates to awareness and understanding. Students and adults often lack clear and accessible information about the full range of apprenticeships, how to apply, entry requirements and the financial supports that are available. This is especially true outside traditional craft apprenticeships. This is why our members called for clarity of access routes to apprenticeship and traineeships in the IGC national survey 2024-25. New apprenticeships in other industries offer opportunities for learners but they need to be embedded fully. The second challenge is finding an employer. For many learners, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds or rural areas or without strong social networks, securing an employer sponsor remains the single largest barrier. This is a major equity issue. The third challenge relates to perceptions and cultural expectations. Despite improvements, academic pathways still enjoy a higher social status in many communities. Apprenticeships require continuous promotion to shift perceptions and ensure parity of esteem.
Guidance counsellors are key to addressing these issues but we require proper support. Guidance counsellors are deeply committed to promoting apprenticeships but insufficient guidance hours in schools and FET settings limit the time available to give students detailed one-to-one support on apprenticeship options. The employer-led application model means information is fragmented and inconsistent. The pace of change in the system as regards new programmes, new providers and new incentive schemes requires ongoing continuing professional development, CPD, as requested by our members. Guidance services remain under-resourced despite growing learner need and increasing complexity.
The IGC respectfully offers a number of recommendations to the committee. The first is that guidance provision should be strengthened by ring-fencing and increasing dedicated guidance hours at the post-primary and FET levels to equate to a 22-hour guidance allocation for 350 and 199 students in DEIS and non-DEIS settings respectively so that guidance counsellors can provide the depth of information and support required for apprenticeships. It should be ensured that apprentices have access to guidance at every phase of their training. The recent launch of the NAO apprentice employer database is widely welcomed. Further engagement by employers and potential applicants will ensure it is a valuable resource.
The second recommendation is to improve access to high-quality information. A single, clear and continuously updated source of apprenticeship information, including information on career progression pathways and earning profiles, for learners, parents and guidance counsellors is essential. A national apprenticeship tracking system modelled on Latvia’s VET approach should be introduced to ensure learners and guidance counsellors have clear and consistent pathway information.
Our third recommendation is that dedicated supports should be provided for learners to secure apprenticeship placements. Many learners need practical help connecting with employers. This is a recruitment-type function separate from the role of the guidance counsellor and requires dedicated support within the apprenticeship system to widen access and reduce inequity. Accessing an apprenticeship should be as straightforward for learners as applying through the CAO. In addition, improving access and inclusion for all learners, including those with additional educational needs, is of utmost importance.
The fourth recommendation is to increase outreach in schools and communities. More co-ordinated visits and attendance at career fairs by apprentices, training providers and employers would help students understand that apprentices are highly skilled professionals working in regulated industries. The fifth recommendation is to strengthen learner supports, progression pathways and parity of esteem in apprenticeships and the sixth is to ensure that apprenticeship opportunities remain available regardless of economic performance.
Guidance counsellors see the transformative impact of apprenticeships every day, particularly for those learners who thrive in practical, hands-on and work-based environments. We believe the system has enormous potential but it will only reach that potential if learners have equitable access to guidance. We are committed to playing our part in achieving that.
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste. I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee. I am happy to take questions.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
The Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, represents more than 21,000 teachers and lecturers across ETBs, voluntary secondary schools, community and comprehensive schools, Youthreach centres, institutes of technology and technological universities. It has a long and proud history of delivering high-quality apprenticeship education. The union remains deeply committed to promoting, developing and safeguarding an apprenticeship system that serves apprentices, educators and society. However, the TUI asserts that substantial and systemic reform is urgently required if apprenticeships are to achieve the parity of esteem they deserve and to function as a genuine engine of educational and economic progress.
A central obstacle to enhancing the status and visibility of apprenticeships is the profound recruitment and retention crisis within post-primary schools, especially in practical subjects, which are fundamental to many apprenticeships. A recent TUI Principals and Deputy Principals Association survey reveals the scale of this crisis. Some 64% of schools have unfilled vacancies, 77% have advertised posts that attracted no applicants, 89% experienced recruitment difficulties in the last six months and 61% reported retention challenges. Critically, subjects such as construction studies, woodwork, engineering and metalwork are among the hardest for which to find staff. As a direct consequence, schools are increasingly dropping these subjects, not because of lack of student interest but because of lack of teachers. This results in generations of students never encountering the very subjects that would spark interest in apprenticeships. In such a climate, meaningful promotion of apprenticeships becomes almost impossible.
While the Action Plan for Apprenticeship 2021–2025 has achieved progress, the deeper challenge lies in transforming the cultural mindset that continues to relegate apprenticeships to a lower status than academic pathways. Though registrations have increased, with over 7,500 craft apprentices and 2,200 consortia-led apprentices in 2024, the system still suffers from being viewed as the Cinderella of the education sector. Students who might thrive within apprenticeships are instead directed toward CAO programmes simply because that system is familiar, straightforward and socially validated. By contrast, the apprenticeship entry process is opaque and heavily dependent on social capital. Securing an apprenticeship often depends on personal networks, employer contacts or knowing the man with the van who is willing to take on a young person. This reliance on informal family-based connections creates socioeconomic barriers that must be dismantled.
The TUI emphasises that the current apprenticeship model is overly employer-led and insufficiently apprentice-centred. Unlike CAO students, who receive structured induction, accommodation support, and consistent campus services, apprentices frequently attend their on-campus training during periods when college facilities are limited or closed. They may travel long distances, incur significant costs and navigate their studies with minimal support.
This inequity is compounded by financial hardship. Many of the apprentices earn below the minimum wage, with some in year 1 earning as little as €7.67 per hour. Expecting individuals to travel, secure accommodation, study intensively and pass examinations while being paid at this level is neither fair nor sustainable. The TUI insists that apprentices must be paid at least the minimum wage, recognising that they contribute meaningfully and productively labour-wise to their sectors while they are learning. Additionally, recent funding shortfalls in certain ETBs in meeting apprentice systems obligations demonstrate a structural weakness that undermines confidence in the system. A robust apprenticeship framework cannot depend on inconsistent financial support and funding.
Despite these challenges, the TUI continues to champion apprenticeship education. The union works closely with ETBs, SOLAS, WorldSkills Ireland, WSI, and the broader apprenticeship community. Initiatives, such as the generation apprenticeship competition and participation in WSI, demonstrate the significant potential and public appetite for apprenticeship pathways. Registration for WorldSkills Ireland reached nearly 38,000, with 32 live competitions and notable gender balance improvements, yet the transition from exposure to sustained engagement is hampered by persistent negative stereotypes and media commentary that undervalue traditional crafts relative to newer apprenticeship models. To address these systemic issues, the TUI calls for the following: genuine parity of esteem between apprenticeships and academic routes supported by national messaging and policy reform; integration of apprenticeship applications into a new CAO system, ensuring transparency, accessibility and equal status; centralised governance and accreditation through the National Apprenticeship Office; development of programmes only where there is a demonstrable sectoral need, ensuring broad, transferable skills rather than narrow, industry-specific training; guaranteed and meaningful investment in staffing, training and resources; and payment of at least the minimum wage for apprentices, recognising their contribution and ensuring their financial viability.
Apprenticeships deliver immense societal and economic value. The TUI remains steadfast in its belief that Ireland can build a world-class, adaptable and equitable apprenticeship system, one that begins in schools, is supported in communities and strengthened through national leadership. To achieve this, apprentices must be valued, supported and afforded dignity, both in pay and educational experience. Thank you for the opportunity to present to the committee.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our witnesses and I thank them for the presentations. I may have to leave because I am due to speak in the Chamber, so it is no disrespect to our witnesses if I leave before they respond. In each of the presentations, the witnesses outlined the difficulties and challenges that are there, but it is important as well that we recognise the comments each of the witnesses made. Mr. Curley spoke about the powerful opportunities with apprenticeships. Ms Rodgers said, “Young people and adults are increasingly open to considering apprenticeship pathways. Guidance counsellors see this every day.” Mr. Gillespie said that apprenticeships can deliver immense societal and economic value. Despite the challenges and the difficulties the witnesses outlined facing young people taking on apprenticeships, it is very important we send out a positive message as well. We need to see more people taking on apprenticeships across so many different areas. That is apart from the traditional craft apprenticeships.
I have a few general queries. I know some schools have engaged closely with local employers, who come into the classroom and meet students. Likewise, some schools bring back people who have gone through the apprenticeship system. Often, rather than reading a document, if we listen to a person’s experience, it can be more influential in informing young people or influencing them to take up a pathway. All of the witnesses referred to the difficulty for some people in securing an employer. Some of that is based on the challenges for people coming from what is regarded as a disadvantaged background. Is there also a geographical element to people not being able to get an employer? By and large, most of us represent rural constituencies where we have people very distant from the training centres. Can that be improved in any way? I know we cannot have a training centre in every location because both critical mass and standards are needed in a training centre. Is there a need for more training centres, particularly spread throughout the more rural counties? I represent Cavan-Monaghan. There are young apprentices from my area who may go to Sligo or Dundalk and some of those people are quite distant. If they have to travel, they have to get accommodation and the remuneration is not adequate. In the witnesses’ engagement with SOLAS and the Department of further and higher education, is any consideration being given to enhancing the network of training centres without diminishing in any way the standards that can be obtained in training centres? Can we ensure that standards are maintained but also at the same time try to facilitate easier access for apprentices?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
Obviously, we met SOLAS. We meet ETBI and the Department for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science regularly on this. The Deputy makes a very valid point but with modern apprenticeships, such as an electrical apprenticeship, for example, with the systems and the way they have to train, there has to be a massive investment in training centres. I visited Waterford training centre recently. It is state of the art. There has been massive investment, especially in retrofitting and solar panel installation. That is very hard to replicate in small places.
Where the supports should go is for students. Often, they are going into the colleges when they are closed or they are overlapping. They cannot get accommodation. We have to try to reimagine how we can make use of the accommodation that is available when the other students are there. At the same time, however, we do not want to water down their college experience because they are only attending for 22 weeks and then a further 11 weeks. They deserve a college experience, which goes back to that idea of parity of esteem. One of the key problems in this regard is the cost and availability of accommodation, which is the same problem with all the students now. We need to look at the accommodation models to make sure they are also facilitated.
I just do not think we have the capital money to replicate it at the standards that are going to be required for a lot of the modern apprenticeships because they are very highly technological based, even just in the context of the whole computerised standards some of them need. It is like having centres of excellence. I think we will end up with centres of excellence, but then you need to support the students so that the cost of attending these centres is met by the State.
Mr. Padraig Curley:
I will further add to that. As Mr. Gillespie said, apprentices have placements of 22 weeks and 11 weeks. Accommodation is a problem for every sector in the economy, but if you have a young person doing an apprenticeship with an employer, which is basically the seven phases in the four years, they will have four of these phases on the job and three of them off the job for training. It can be costly. It can be very difficult for those people to get to the training centres.
My personal experience is that I am a practical teacher of construction studies in the second level sector. My two brothers’ sons are both doing craft apprenticeships, one doing electrical and the other plumbing. Access is dependent on the family and the actual unit. What I am advocating here today is that schools should play a more important role in terms of career guidance to direct people down that route. As it was said, in second level schools, we are very much CAO and university orientated, and there are a lot of people who want to learn through that.
With regard to the apprenticeship model itself, and Mr. Gillespie has spoken well about it, there must be supports because there are problems with the employer-led approach. How do you get an employer to take on an apprentice? I have interviewed people and I will just give the committee this example as a flavour. Seán was the name of the apprentice and the parent told me that Seán is lucky that he has a very good employer who registered him, so I found out that on-time registration with SOLAS can be an issue as well. His employer releases him when college placements come up and takes him back when college placements are finished. He also pays the correct rate. Again, the minimum wage and money are a big issue because some people are on a training rate, which is less than the minimum wage. Some employers are also not efficient at registering apprentices with SOLAS. Often, the parent finds out that they are actually not registered for the apprenticeship when it is time for the training.
Some other employers are not so good. This comes from witness statements. Some people are let go during their apprenticeships and have to find another employer who will take them on and allow them to finish their apprenticeships. This is the inclusiveness aspect. It is overly dependent on the family unit supporting the apprentice. That is what the other speakers were alluding to.
Deputy Smith started off by addressing the rural aspect. I looked up Donegal as regards my own craft, which is wood and carpentry. There are no places offered. I could see two mechanical places. If we look at the percentage on apprenticeships.ie, most are around Dublin. Certainly, there is a rural issue and urban issue.
Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Gillespie referred to the lack of teachers for practical subjects. Are enough teachers being trained in those subjects?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
Research would say that there is enough being trained. We are just not retaining them. We are not even able to recruit them. With the first group, some of them are going to Australia for the lifestyle, but they will come back. The problem with Dubai is that they are going for tax-free salaries and then they cannot get incremental credit when they come back, so they decide to stay for another five years. I will not name the companies, but if there is someone who is a construction teacher who is a perfect fit, there are companies that recruit them and say that they will train them up as a quantity surveyor, it is a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. job and they will give them flexible working. That is more attractive than teaching, given the modern way of working. We have people who are trained teachers with transferable skills being recruited straight out of the classroom into the private sector. It is not just them; it is language teachers and so on. We are training enough. It is just that we are not able to retain them. There are all sorts of issue involved, such workload, bureaucracy around teaching and the lack of teacher autonomy.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Good morning, everyone. I thank them for their presentations. We have had a number of meetings concentrating on apprenticeships. One of things that comes up consistently was the importance of guidance counselling in our schools. All the witnesses have indicated the lack of investment in guidance and that is something that needs to be addressed. There is a concentration in the CAO process on going to college rather than on apprenticeships. Is it because it is a more streamlined approach? It was mentioned that there was poor awareness and understanding among guidance counsellors of entry to apprenticeships. Are the witnesses talking about the consortium model moreso than the traditional craft apprenticeship model? If that is the case, is there not CPD that can be undertaken to ensure that guidance counsellors are equipped with the knowledge to provide the guidance to their students on what they should be doing after the transition from secondary school?
My son is in sixth year. He had no guidance counselling at all in his fifth year. He has had guidance this year, but it is quite limited. I asked him whether he had been informed about apprenticeships. He said he did not want to go down the line of apprenticeship because he is not that practically minded. He is not; it is not his strong point. I said that there were apprenticeships in accountancy and lots of other fields. He said he had no idea. Students are not being given the information to make the best-informed choices. I recognise the need for a much increased investment in guidance in our schools. Is there something more that can be done, not just by guidance counsellors but by staff in general, to encourage students to go down the route of apprenticeships?
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
Every secondary school in Ireland has an allocation for a guidance counsellor. In a non-DEIS setting, it equates to 22 hours of guidance allocated for 583 students. In a DEIS school, it equates to 250 students for 22 hours of guidance. We sometimes see an inequity of access to guidance. Some schools would allocate the full guidance allocation to the guidance counsellor. Other schools perhaps do not. We have a whole-school guidance team approach, which can work well, but there is inequity in how well that can work. The Senator mentioned about not having access to guidance counselling in fifth year. Unfortunately, that is something we are hearing, too. Guidance counselling starts in first year and works its way all through the school cycle.
To address the second point about CPD, guidance counsellors engaged with meaningful CPD. The IGC has strong links with SOLAS. SOLAS attends our national conference and has delivered a workshop every year for the past five years or perhaps even longer. We have good CPD on it, but it is ever-changing and growing fast. More CPD would be warmly welcome.
To circle back to the allocation, the IGC is advocating for the 583 to be brought down to 350. That would mean that a guidance counsellor would have a caseload of 350 students for every 22 hours of guidance allocated to a school in a non-DEIS school. In a DEIS school, that would bring the number down from 250 to 199. If there was more time for guidance counsellors to meet students and go to them in first year and second year to do as was mentioned, which was to bring in employers or past pupils, that would be impactful because they could see somebody who had been in sixth year six years ago and was now a fully qualified electrician. That type of learning is powerful, but it is co-ordinated very often by the guidance counsellor, who needs time to do these things.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. Do the witnesses have data on the number of school students who go on to do apprenticeships? If they do, is there a comparison between those coming from different types of school? For example, TUI generally represents staff in schools, such as ETB schools, vocational schools and comprehensive schools, whereas the ASTI is more the private schools. Is there a significant difference in students coming from different types of school who go on to apprenticeships?
It was mentioned that apprentices should have access to guidance through all phases of apprenticeships. How do the witnesses see that working? Who would be responsible for providing that guidance?
Pre-apprenticeship courses, especially for those coming from more marginalised backgrounds, were identified as being important to ease them into the apprenticeship model. Do the witnesses see a role there? Should more be provided because there seems to be a shortfall in those?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
Where we are coming from here is the employer-led model. Thirty years ago, the guidance counsellor I first met at the end of third year would go out and be able to get anybody who wanted to do an apprenticeship a place. Thirty years ago, our population was nowhere near the population we have now. We also had far more time in school. Time is now an asset that we do not have. As Ms Rodgers said, career guidance teachers do not have the time. We are still suffering from the cutbacks. When I started teaching - I was a physics teacher for 25 years - we had a 16:1 ratio. We have had a 19:1 ratio since the crisis, and it has not improved. That affects all the services we give and the time we have to get to know our students. We are suffering from that.
The other thing is that it is employer-led. Anybody who does not have the social capital or does not know the man with a van finds it difficult to get an apprenticeship. On the other hand, the CAO system is easy to understand. Look at all the information that is printed on websites and in books that come out on how to apply. There are students who could nearly take a degree in how to apply to CAO, there is so much information, but the same thing does not apply to apprenticeships.
People recognise how to become an electrician or a plumber and they know where to go for that, but the new consortium-led models are a mystery to most people. The vast majority of people whom I talk to do not even know they exist. People can do quantity surveying now through a company that has set it up on its own as a consortium right up to level 9, but people are not aware of that. There is a lack of awareness of the new earn-to-learn model, a model that suits a huge number of students rather than going to third level. It has come in quickly.
We do not have figures to say that there is a preference from certain areas, but stand-alone schools tend to be able to focus on students in their areas because there is only one school. They look at things. Stand-alone schools would have a higher place, but I only have anecdotal evidence of that. They would be like more the community and comprehensive schools or where there is a large ETB school. They also have a lot of practical subjects, so the students more than likely see those.
If there is work experience, transition year and the leaving certificate vocational programme, LCVP, in a school, it definitely affects the number of people who go into apprenticeships. We have statistics - I do not have them to hand - showing that they improve the way people think about things. They are there because they have placements. It depends on social capital, though.
It is not the school that determines this in most cases; it is who your mother, father or guardian knows who can get you into that work experience. It is not a level playing field.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses. It has been a very valuable exchange. Certainly, I feel that some of what we were getting in terms of data or information from previous witnesses has been correlated from what the witnesses today have said. However, the last strategy possibly did not tackle the areas they raised enough, particularly in terms of the accessibility of information, subject choice in secondary schools and the availability of guidance counsellors in secondary schools. It is really good information, and I appreciate the witnesses coming in.
I will start in terms of the information piece about which both previous speakers have spoken. This relates to the practical experience of somebody in secondary school who the guidance counsellor might be working with. If the guidance counsellor feels that such a person might be suited to an apprenticeship model, would those conversations happen on a frequent basis?
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
Absolutely. It is not necessarily about whether the guidance counsellor feels they would be suitable for an apprenticeship model. We treat every young person as an individual, we help them to find their path, we guide them and we give them all the different information that is available about all the different opportunities they could take. It is very student led, but they would definitely be exposed to all the different pathways including apprenticeships, CAO applications, traineeships and earn and learn schemes.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If it is student led - we have already recognised the issue of parity of esteem, and it has been noted by many of the witnesses - maybe a student in a school will be a bit concerned if they are choosing an option their peers are all kind of shunning. Should there not be a stronger role for the guidance counsellor? This goes back to the point Deputy Smith made about the suitability of the teachers or lack of teachers for certain subjects. Should we be looking at students who are coming through the system and saying they have very high academic results in certain areas and, therefore, their career might be suited towards a certain area? Does that not happen?
Mr. Padraig Curley:
I am a construction studies teacher. I have spent 30 years teaching woodwork, construction studies and technical drawing. Of course I come across students who I know would be suited to it. I worked in a joinery before I went to the University of Limerick, UL, and did my teacher training and so forth. I would often have the conversation. I have to say that when it does not affect people or their sons or daughters - when it is not directly related to them - they will have a lack of knowledge of the apprenticeship system. That is why we are subject specialists. People rely on the career guidance in the school. The Deputy will know that most construction teachers and staff will have an interest in the apprenticeship model and will be advocating for it. I think the status of it is increasing. We can look around society for evidence of that. When people want a plumber or an electrician, what kind of money do they need? First of all, they would not even ask because they cannot get a plumber or an electrician. I think that will come. From a school's point of view, which is what I am talking about, I would like to see - I would not say less emphasis on the CAO - an equal emphasis on apprenticeships and the idea that university may not be the form of education most suitable for every student. I do not think it is. There are many students who are interested in apprenticeships. It is not just the craft apprenticeships because, as Mr. Gillespie said, the list is enormous. However, there needs to be much tighter oversight. As Mr. Gillespie said, it is employer led, and it depends on a person's family and how much capital and time they have to invest. The barriers must be brought down.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to the role of the guidance counsellor in the secondary school. Ms Rodgers said it was 22 hours per week for over 500 pupils. Quite fairly, she questioned the sufficiency of that. Are there other roles that the guidance counsellor takes on outside of guidance counselling within schools? I know everything is wholesome and we work with all pupils, but for me the guidance counsellor in the school should focus on those preparing for the leaving certificate or for senior cycle. I was a bit surprised - maybe I should not have been - to hear that they work with first-year pupils as well.
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
The role of guidance counsellor is a specialised role and a dual qualification role. To work in a secondary school, a person will be registered with the Teaching Council under route 2. Then he or she will go back and do a postgraduate qualification in guidance counselling. Absolutely, the guidance counsellor will have different roles within the school. It is quite a broad role. When we have the benefit of having a whole-school guidance team, we have the construction teacher talking about the range of apprenticeships linking to that area, or the accountancy teacher talking about the apprenticeship opportunities as an accounting technician. The whole-school guidance approach works really well when it promotes pathways over points and fosters parity of esteem. It is not that there is a hierarchy where one route is better than another route; it is just that all routes are available and they have equal status. Maybe there is a piece of work to be done within the community to bring that home so that people's parents and friends are also saying it is not a hierarchy and it is all equal. In such circumstances, a pupil can ask which one is right for him or her.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Am I detecting, maybe inaccurately, that some of the guidance counsellor's time might be taken up with a curricular subject if there is demand in the school for it?
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
Absolutely. The allocation of the guidance counsellor is at the discretion of the senior management team, which is why the IGC has been advocating for it to be ring-fenced and for the full guidance allocation to be given to the guidance counsellor in the first instance. However, there would be cases where guidance counsellors may also teach their curricular subject.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting. Going back to the point Mr. Gillespie raised in relation to the availability of teachers, another thing that is at the discretion of the school - coincidentally, I have two children in two different secondary schools - is the different choices of subjects that are available in different schools. Is that a local decision for the schools?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
No, it comes down to the modern allocation system. The modern allocation system in schools is very tight. There is very little flexibility in it. I used to do a timetable for a very big school. In my early days, we had huge flexibility because we were allowed to be a little over quota. Now, we are absolutely on quota. That means schools have very little flexibility in the choice subjects they offer in first year and the choice subjects they offer in fifth year. It is very tight. Another problem arises if a school does not have a home economics teacher. If the home economics teacher has left, the school will not say where the teacher has gone to or advertise that it cannot get a home economics teacher, especially if it is competing with others. If it has a physical education, PE, teacher, what it suddenly does is swap PE with home economics as a choice subject. The parents do not know anything has happened because the school is covering up the fact that it cannot get a home economics teacher. That happens for engineering and construction. I know two Dublin schools that cannot recruit a construction teacher from anywhere. They are even trawling in Dubai to see whether they can persuade someone to come back. That is where we are seeing it. The research we have done, every year consistently for the last five years, shows that one of the big things that is happening is how this is affecting students. They are being taught by out-of-field teachers or the subjects are being dropped. That is the problem. Therefore, we get a lack of choice.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that lack of teacher availability causing schools to not provide certain subjects?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The last question in that whole area is this: do schools get additional capitation for providing special subjects like woodwork?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They do not get additional capital funding with equipment-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would imagine those subjects require additional-----
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
More money, yes. Sometimes, we are quite happy if there is a big increase in some of the cheaper subjects to run. Being honest with the Deputy, that is not sustainable going forward because senior cycle redevelopment involves additional components of assessment in every subject, which means there is going to need to be a lot more resources put in for things. Every subject is going to be clamouring for the same resources.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Gillespie very much.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I was listening to Mr. Curley earlier. I am of a different vintage. I am also a technical subject teacher in engineering, but there was no UL when I was in Limerick. I am a graduate of Thomond. I think we can ascertain from that statement that I am older than him. I am of the vintage that when I was in secondary school, for the vast majority of lads who I set out on the journey with, the target was the inter cert, as it was called at the time, and an apprenticeship as the get-out-of-jail card. For a lot of them it was genuinely what they wanted to do, but for many of them it was a get-out-of-jail card. They would get the inter cert and then go and do an apprenticeship. The wheel has gone full circle in my time. I have seen how the CAO came in and an apprenticeship was a thing of the past, and now the apprenticeships are coming back.
A couple of things were said. It seems that when we are doing our report, we might suggest that a lot of solutions to the problems could be in this sector.
We are at the root of some of the issues and problems for young people and, indeed, employers. While the guidance people are guiding young people in a particular direction, when it comes to an apprenticeship, there is a need for an employer. As a result, there seems to be a serious breakdown if schools do not have communication with employers. Could that be improved throughout transition year, for example? Transition year students have to do work experience. Much of the time, what I see with my family is that I get a call to “Bring him up for a week” or “He has to fill in next week for work experience.” There is no real thought being put into a connection through doing the work experience with an employer who could be a potential sponsor going forward. There is no real joined-up thinking in the context of work experience. It is just to tick a box that this week has to be done. The witnesses might comment on how that could be improved.
My point relates to how we can improve communication between potential employers and second level. I do not think employers, if they were picking up the phone in the morning to get a potential employee or apprentice, would think of ringing a secondary school. They would go further afield.
The witnesses mentioned a lack of awareness. I have also found this to be the case. I am a farmer, for my sins, and I have a couple of horses. I got a copy of the Irish thoroughbred breeders magazine during the week and saw the announcement that it has started a three-year apprenticeship for stud management. This is an ongoing thing that we are all only learning about. The witnesses say there is a lack of awareness, but who teaches the teachers? How would there be a lack of awareness, and how would Senator Tully's son not know there was such a thing as apprenticeships, if there was even one session with a guidance counsellor? Would it not be during the first session that the guidance counsellor explains what is out there, as opposed to taking them by the hand to the finish line? The guidance counsellor should at least be filling them in on the potential of apprenticeships for their future. I will let witnesses respond and see what time is left.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
I will answer the first question. I will take the typical school. I taught in a community school. In fifth year and transition year, we would have in excess of 250 students either doing LCVP in fifth year, transition year or LCA, and all having work experience modules. It is impossible for a year head, the guidance counsellors or even people with posts of responsibility, who have very little time off, a full teaching load and all the bureaucracy around teaching, as well as all the inspections, to organise like we did 30 years ago. We used to organise work experience 30 years ago. We have gone backwards. We are not able to do it now because of the pressure of time.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I did not intend the schools to organise it. Could they not sow the seed in the young person by suggesting they should be doing something they might benefit from, as opposed to just ticking a box?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
It is because of the size of our classes. We have the largest class sizes in Europe. When I started teaching, there were 16 in my class. When I was leaving, there were 24 and 30. I would call myself a practical teacher because I was teaching physics. Given class sizes, we do not have the time. We are time poor in schools in the context of giving the service that we want to give. That is a big problem. I had time to talk to students when I started teaching. By the time I left school in 2013, I did not have the time. I was a year head at that stage and had held other positions that I decided to step back from. We are time poor to give what we need to give to students now. That is one of the problems with having the largest class sizes in Europe.
On the second question on awareness, who is going to do the training? We have set up Oide as a training body. However, Oide is at the pin of its collar to bring in senior cycle redevelopment, junior cycle subjects and so on. One of the things we are suffering from is absolute change overload in schools.
I will pick on the Department of education. It compiled a report last year in which it stated that it had delivered 20 of the things it had decided to deliver. No one reported on where those things were supposed to be delivered, namely in schools. All of this stuff was put into schools with no additional resources or capacity. Everybody puts it down to the schools. I have to keep reminding the Department that a school is a building, but its circular says the school-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest respect, I hear all that. As I said, I am a former teacher, and I have just this year finished a term as board of management chair in a school. It is not the same in every school. I would put some of it down to management at school level, to be honest. It is something I have not experienced during my term on the board of management of a very big secondary school.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The pressures that Mr. Gillespie is talking about. I know the pressures are there, but I would not blame them or use them as issues. I have not experienced them, to be honest. I have not had teachers coming to me to say what Mr. Gillespie is saying.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is not an answer to everything. We are here to try to come up with solutions. We know there are problems.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
This is one of the problems. If we want to give people time and to train teachers, we have to create time for teachers, as every other jurisdiction in Europe has done. They have moved to smaller class sizes. If we want to bring in 21st century education that includes additional assessment components, the only way we can do it is with smaller classes. We cannot do it with 30 students in a room. That is impossible.
Mr. Padraig Curley:
I went to Thomond when it became a university, so I might only be slightly younger than the Senator. I have looked at this. Since the model is employer led, schools must be supported with dedicated liaison time for staff to actively build robust relationships with local industry and to host guest speakers. For example, I could get my nephews back into the school to talk about their experiences of electrical apprenticeships or plumbing apprenticeships. As I said, there are new apprenticeships like aeronautical engineer and so on. Certainly, I would love to do that in a rural place.
I referred to co-ordinating meaningful transition year placements. The Senator is right. In fairness, Mr. Gillespie mentioned that we need to have transition year placements so people could be put on placement in transition year. They are accessible through the established leaving certificate, the LCVP and, crucially, the leaving certificate applied programme. The point is still valid that we need time. If I were to talk to the Senator about, say, the horse breeding industry, farming and agricultural science, we would have to have time to form relationships and to bring those people into the school to expose the students to this new way. There are certainly opportunities in the TY programme and the LCA programme to embed this, but we must allow the students and teachers time to establish these things.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Curley will have a chance to come back in. I must move to Deputy McGettigan.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I am guessing that I am younger than Senator Daly. I attended a comprehensive, sat the intermediate certificate examination and then went to FÁS. When we are talking about the issues with TY, I can see that the students themselves have to go out and find the employer. It is not like it was. I believe the TY system is very valuable. It needs time and resources because people now have to apply and they may not get a position, which leaves students who want to go into it stuck on the academic path going forward.
The survey stated that 24% of people want to travel abroad from their apprenticeships and 20% said it was too early to make any decision on their future. We need to look at that. If people are saying they do not know what they want to be, how are they going to go to university or college, or do an apprenticeship? We are going that we end up with dropouts. The survey is very telling. Some 64% say they cannot find an employer and 59% of those who have withdrawn did so for financial reasons. The evidence regarding what needs to be done is here in the survey. I thank the witnesses for bringing the survey to us because it is valuable for committee members numbers to go forward with what we need to do. We are coming to the end of the existing strategy. The new strategy needs to include proper resourcing and funding, and a way of breaking down the barriers that are holding back apprenticeships. That will help to lower the dropout rates.
Some of the barriers we talked about involve the employers. I suggested before that we could look at local authorities and public bodies bringing in apprenticeships. That would stop people from having to find employers, and would particularly help in rural areas.
I do not really have many questions for the witnesses. They may want to come back in on what I was saying.
Ms Liz Farrell:
It may answer some of the questions. I taught for 26 years in a rural school on the border between Wicklow and Carlow. There were no employers nearby so there was nowhere for them to work. We could not get TY work experience to work because there was the local shop, the pub and a small restaurant and that was it. We had 30 students all vying to go down one week of the year. It goes back to the earlier question by the Senator and the Deputies. How do we accommodate that? We did not have employers coming into the school. In around 2018 SOLAS launched Generation Apprentice with the guidance counsellors. SOLAS came in and met us in TY and we launched it in secondary schools. I am an English teacher. I know nothing about the apprenticeship model and I have been engaged since then. I am learning every day, like the gentleman said. There are new apprenticeships every single day. It is changing a mindset though, it absolutely is. I do not think it is starting at second level. We are all invested and we understand what is happening in schools. We say maybe this should be one student's trajectory and maybe another student should look at the CAO, but that is not what they are hearing at home. It is not what their parents are saying. Everybody keeps saying parity of esteem. We have called for it for years, but why is there not a centralised system that can make it easy to become an apprentice? There are mothers all over the country - I am one - who are afraid to send their children down this route because the employer might let them go after a year, they might not be able to complete or they might find college too hard. There are all those reasons. We have to put value on the system we know is exceptional, we know delivers and we know gives our apprentices the best and they can travel all over the world. It sounds like a simple fix, but that is the simple fix. Unless second level students can see this is the same and there is absolute parity of esteem with their fellow students going to third level then parents might get to see it and their friends might see it as well. There is a path, you go on it and there is a system and a way out.
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
Just to mention about TY, transition year is a fantastic opportunity for young people to be exposed to lots of different potential careers and different pathways. I want to circle back to the earlier point about awareness and how to get awareness in schools. College Awareness Week happened either last week or the week before, but what our members are reporting is that it is more like it is college awareness month. Sometimes the phrase "college awareness" makes people think it is just about HEIs and college, but it absolutely is not. It is about all pathways because apprentices will go to college as well. That is a whole-school initiative from first year right up to sixth year. That type of initiative works really well because it exposes the students to different pathways they had not considered before. With those types of events where you organise your careers fairs, we have had really good examples where local schools come together and the guidance counsellors from three or four different schools in an area host a joint careers fair and have different employers coming in from the area and different local PLC colleges or the HEIs come in. That works really well too, so there is a lot we can do to promote awareness, but it comes back to that piece again for time. Just to highlight, in the IGC's pre-budget submission we called for guidance counsellors to be awarded a post equivalent to an assistant principal 1 so they are part of the senior management team and can advocate for this awareness and for the student at every level. It is also about having the time to do the co-ordination piece between employers and the schools. Very often when you reach out to an employer they are incredibly grateful and want to work with you. It is just to get the time to do that effectively. I wanted to share that.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for a very important presentation. There is a certain commonality in all the presentations we have had over the past few months. Certain things are cropping up like parity of esteem with the status given to universities and colleges, the lack of financial supports, finding employers, transport and accommodation and the urban-rural divide. The same themes are coming up at every presentation.
My background is education. I was on three boards of management over the years and taught in primary schools for 34 years. I was involved in the ETBs. There is a lot you would not be aware of even at board of management meetings in terms of apprenticeships because it was never really something I heard discussed on three different secondary school boards of management. It is just something that was outside the system. We have a big problem, as has been said at every presentation. We have all sorts of experts in IT, AI and pharma but we are missing the basics - the craft skills - like the builders, plumbers, retrofitters and the bus drivers, which of course is creating a problem with school transport. I agree with the witnesses we need a complete radical reset of how things are done, starting at secondary, I suppose, which the witnesses are dealing with in terms of information, training and guidance before we go any further. It is mad what Mr. Gillespie was saying about us trawling Dubai to find teachers yet people are not coming back from there because of the obstacles to returning. There is a separate Oireachtas committee on the barriers to coming back to Ireland for the diaspora. That is something that needs to be tied in with that committee as well, because we have been listing all the barriers. It is madness we are having to import all these skills while exporting our people. We are importing skills, which is going to create a further crisis with accommodation because they have to live somewhere, so it is a mess really. The witnesses have a crucial role in getting the information out there.
My son is in his second year of secondary school and I was asking him what he would like to be, apart from another Ronaldo, but he has not really thought beyond that.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe Troy Parrott now. It is something you need to be thinking of, even in second year of secondary school. You need to be thinking what path you want to go on, without being too pushy on it. The ASTI and the TUI have a big role at their congress in putting pressure on about what Mr. Gillespie was saying about teachers not having time. I was teaching up until this time last year, right up to December when I was elected, and you just do not have time. You are just running around on a treadmill. There needs to be dedicated time put aside - maybe the unions can advocate for this at their congress - to have the time to do that. I agree the first thing that might be easy to do would be to put it out to students that there are all these apprenticeships there. I have learned so much this past year that I did not know, even after being on the ETB. There are apprenticeships I did not know existed.
As for questions, the witnesses know the pace of change in Ireland is glacial. It is like pushing a mountain to get something done. If we were to start at our committee with one small thing that could be done as a first step in the area the witnesses are dealing with, what would it be? Obviously we need a centralised system, something like the CAO, but that might be a big change to make. What would be a nice easy one to get the ball rolling that would not give the Government any excuse to say this is too difficult? I mean something easy to start with.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
I suppose second to a centralised CAO system would be centralised information. The National Apprenticeship Office has been very busy trying to create the consortia models and all those things needs to start being a source of information so everybody knows all the types of apprenticeships that are there, including the ones that are being set up by fairly major national companies we all know the names of. Again, it is luck that you discover that. I would say 90% of teachers do not know a big company is now taking 20 people on to train in quantity surveying in a new apprenticeship model. Nobody knows that.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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No, they would not.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
We know it because we are part of the consortium with our TU members, but I found that out by accident. I was at an apprentice working party and they told us about it. I found that out by accident and we are really in the phase of it. If I was to have one wish, the National Apprenticeship Office needs to become a central point for information.
That information then needs to be distributed because that would allow us, even without a central applications system, to know who is providing all these apprenticeships. Even if it only distributed the list, people would know what they can apply for in their area or in their area of interest. As Mr. Curley said earlier, applicants may have a family member in Dublin who will put them up for those three years while they are doing that apprenticeship, but if they do not have the information that it is there, it is not possible. Information would be the first step.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that sounds like an easy one to deliver. It sounds like an easy and practical measure.
Ms Colette Twomey:
I am a guidance counsellor in further education and training. I am very lucky to be in the ETB I am in. I go around to schools and talk about apprenticeships and further education and training. That is where I am and it is working very well. Schools are crying out for that. With the experience in mind and to come back to what Mr. Gillespie was saying, all of us are saying that we need a more centralised system. When I go in and talk to transition year, fifth year and sixth year students, I do not like the idea that it is CAO, FET and apprenticeships. I do not like the idea that apprenticeships are more suited to one student than another. It is a profession we are talking about and it is suitable to anybody who has the interest and aptitude for whatever it might be, whether construction, computing, accounting or the degree programmes. I would love if moved away from that. It is about a cultural shift and, as was mentioned, perception. The vision of a better centralised system starts to change perception. That will be the case if it is presented well, like the way the CAO is presented. It is about a guidance counsellor being able to go into a class and talk about applying for apprenticeships and having all the information in one place, like I can with the CAO. It is very easy to talk about the CAO because it is an easy system to use.
My experience in further education is that it is not just school leavers who are going into apprenticeships. We have mature students as well, for whatever reason. Maybe they did a degree and then decided they did not want to be in business or whatever and instead wanted to be an electrician. The adult guidance service is also meeting adults who want to go into apprenticeships. In the further education and training college I am in, students come out of school and do a year or two, but then they want to go and get into an apprenticeship. It is not, therefore, just to school leavers that we need to be highlighting the model of apprenticeships. I always talk about apprenticeships being a model of learning, rather than just being a label.
Going back to an earlier point, I hope the committee does not mind me mentioning the support for apprenticeships. It goes back to the survey and the number of apprentices who thought about dropping out because of finance or for health reasons. I meet apprentices on the campus when I am there as a full-time guidance counsellor. I make sure I am available to all students. Many apprentices do not have access to guidance counsellors. Our role is not about just applying for a course but about personal and educational support. That includes supporting those experiencing issues around academics, study skills and so on when those issues arise. Apprentices are away from home a lot of the time and there is a lot of isolation. They are there for blocks of weeks for one, two or three years, which is not a long time to make friends. I have witnessed a lot of issues arising when students are on their own in a town they do not know. It is about having the support of a guidance counsellor for apprentices as well. We heard the issues highlighted include finances, health, academic skills, having disabilities and not having equal access to supports like any other student would. It is not just about supporting people and making the apprenticeship model attractive. It is about supporting the students so we can retain them when they are thinking about leaving. There must be supports there for apprentices when issues arise.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I definitely agree with what Ms Twomey is saying about the cultural shift. When I went to school, there was the technical school, which was about doing the intermediate certificate and getting into an apprentice. Other schools, maybe a CBS school, would have been about doing the leaving certificate and going to university. There was that kind of a division. Things should be more like Germany, where apprenticeships are given a higher status and people can be an apprentice to become an investment banker or anything really.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
We spend an awful lot of money in special education and supporting people with a disability in primary and post-primary schools. The minute they leave post-primary school, and it does not matter if they are going to further education, third level education or to do an apprenticeship, the support falls off a cliff. There is no support for people who might need that little bit extra to help them through these things. The 22 weeks end in an exam, which may be a practical exam. Our support structures stop at the ages of 17 and 18 across the board. We are missing out on an awful lot of people who might be brought that extra mile if they got a little bit of help like they had in secondary school. This is something else we need to look at, and not just for apprenticeships but for further education and even higher education. The situation is hit and miss. Some colleges have their own programmes and do very well, but that is not across the board. That is something else that is needed. Apprenticeships need some support if we want to bring in students who have additional education needs. We need to be able to support them as well, but there is no investment in that.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conneely wants to come in.
Mr. John Conneely:
Like Mr. Gillespie, I was a physics teacher. I left the classroom recently. There needs to be an awareness of the problems schools face with the capacity to bring in new initiatives. As a physics and science teacher, I brought first, second and transition year students to local factories, etc. We linked with them and were given tours. When you are a teacher, there is a problem with the time available. There are difficulties in getting out of school because it is not possible to get teachers into the system as replacements. There are difficulties with the support structures in the schools. A point was made about time by Mr. Gillespie, and it is very important. We need more time in the system. We need to bring the pupil-teacher ratio down to 16:1 because the present 19:1 ratio is just not suitable. We need to get this time built into the system.
The capacity of schools is really being stretched at the minute. We have senior cycle redevelopment coming in. We have underresourced classrooms. We do not have laboratory technicians, unfortunately. They have them in England but we do not have them over here. We have legacy problems in school laboratories. There are issues with investment. There are problems across the system. This is not an excuse. There are problems in the system in terms of bringing these changes in. Teachers would like to support our students. Many science teachers have links with industry or have an interest in linking with industry, but we need support.
It is not only career teachers who would support students in terms of careers. It is also the teachers of other subjects. They would like to get involved in doing so, but we need time to do it. We would like to help, but we need the time to do so. It is not just one thing that stands in the way. There are several things. There are systematic problems in the science area. We do not have computer technicians in schools, for example. Teachers are now firefighting a lot of things in a school day and have a lot of things to deal with. We would like to be able to support this but we are underresourced. There needs to be data on the basic infrastructural problems in schools before we start to throw this responsibility onto schools. There is a problem there. We also need the data to support what we are trying to do now. This is very important.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McGettigan wants to ask another question.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I agree that there is consistent underfunding across the board. That is a very strong message that is coming through. In terms of terminology, when we talk about apprenticeships, there is talk of on-the-job and off-the-job elements. That needs to be changed because even saying it causes a problem. Apprentices go to college, but nobody seems to realise that. I just wanted to say that very quickly. We had someone in who had gone through college and decided it was not for him. He left a well-paying job to go and be an apprentice. He is very successful now. All these kinds of stories lead to this.
Ms Liz Farrell:
I wish to highlight the underfunding, even at the HEI level. We are talking about supports that are required for our young apprentices who are doing 11-week blocks. Our lecturers are there. We have, in phases 4 and 6, the electrical components.
As to the Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, recommendation, this shows something that is happening. Many of these students are very bright and clever but they are coming in to do the theory classes. The QQI recommendation is 16 learners to one trainer for those classes. There could be 32 in a class. It seems to be that there are more students in there now. There are way more students in the classroom than the recommended 16:1 ratio. We have highlighted this as an issue. These are students who are not in full-time third level education. They are coming from second level where they had support, little enough as it may have been. They are going in for an 11-week block and are doing theory classes on very difficult mathematical problems. We have highlighted this as an issue and the colleges are telling us that the underfunding means they have to put two theory classes into one. We have brought this issue up everywhere. We are talking about giving apprentices additional supports. We are talking about schools needing additional supports. We cannot even give apprentices what is recommended. They leave school where we are all minding them. That is what teachers do - we look after them. We talk to them as grown-ups, ask them what they want to do and we give them recommendations. Then they go into college and there is this situation. It is just so unfair and wrong. I wanted to highlight that because I had the chance and would be killed if I did not take it.
Mr. Padraig Curley:
I will be very brief. Regarding the question on what could be done, there is a teachers association in my area of practical teachers. SOLAS, for example, and other organisations could take a stand at the subject teachers conference and spread the word among those teachers about apprenticeship programmes and things like that so that the knowledge is there. We have to get back to the cuts that were made to guidance counselling in 2012. I think that was when there were the huge ones. We have to ring-fence the hours. That is just the starting point. The centralised system is obviously very important. If the parent does not know enough, it will not happen. Unfortunately, I cannot say with my hand on my heart that schools are actually promoting apprenticeships enough. Teachers would love to but they are not being supported enough by the level above them.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few questions. Does the National Apprenticeship Office provide information to the guidance counsellors?
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Is that not within its remit?
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
In our role, we deal with the National Apprenticeship Office. It does not have enough staff to do everything it wants to do. Its focus over the last number of years has been on bringing about the dual approach, maintaining the craft apprenticeships at the standard it wants, and setting up the consortium models. Even some of that has proved very difficult. I sit on the LEEF subgroup for apprenticeships. The National Apprenticeship Office is under pressure to achieve what it is trying to achieve with the staffing level it has.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the CPD, is that offered to every teacher or just to guidance counsellors? As a proportion of the guidance counsellors, how many take up CPD in relation to apprenticeships?
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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What proportion of guidance counsellors have taken a CPD class in apprenticeships?
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is information for their job, though. It is a very important part of their job.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
As the focus at the moment is on senior cycle development, we do not have specific training for guidance counsellors in apprenticeships or whatever. It is what they have done on a voluntary basis at their conference and getting SOLAS and the NAO to attend. Everybody is not getting the same message. People just happened to be able to go to the conference that weekend and they may have picked it up. However, we know the pressures facing people at a certain stage in life. They may have to be going to a GAA match with their own kids. Therefore, it is not consistent. The only way for it to be consistent is if the Department, through Oide, supplies the training or if the NAO supplies the training.
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
On that, I will add that the conferences are on Fridays and Saturdays and we have long asked that guidance counsellors be released from school to attend on Fridays. That is 100% at the discretion of the senior management team and other obligations they are under on that day. If there was anything to support the release of guidance counsellors to attend and engage with this really important CPD, we would really appreciate that.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Farrell mentioned extra supports that were needed for students. Other than the reduction of class sizes, which is the obvious one, what do those other supports look like?
Ms Liz Farrell:
When they leave the system, they have been well looked after at second level. When they go in to the technical universities or the further education we have, the system is not prepared for them in that sense. A lot of the time, they could be there when there is a closure for the Easter period. They are doing exams and they cannot even get a cup of coffee. They could be driving up at 5 o'clock in the morning from wherever in the country, ready to sit an exam or go into a practical class. We really need to look after them if they are doing on-the-job training, but if they are back in our TUs and universities, they have to have that college experience. They have to feel they are part of it and that they are learning. They are going up to level 10. These are serious degrees and serious work is undertaken. These are very high-level academic achievements. If students are falling down in certain aspects of the modules, there should be the additional supports there for them as well.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On the CAO website, there are three very clear boxes to click on for higher education, further education and apprentices. As a mother, they look like equal boxes to me. You click on them and there are very obvious courses and apprenticeships. I am a plumber's daughter. All my family are in trades. I went with tech. I was told by my guidance counsellor to do a secretarial course and not go to college. It was all about the practical. I was all about doing stuff practically and locally. When we are giving a PowerPoint presentation to students in fifth or sixth year explaining, even on a very basic level, the CAO and how it works, you go in and find you have insurance apprenticeships, agricultural apprenticeships, etc. They are all there. Obviously, for third level and further education, you cannot go through all the courses. It is up to a student to be a self-advocate and to have their own ambition. Nobody is spoon-fed; they never were. I do not think a young adult should be spoon-fed completely on their choices. However, what can the CAO website improve on? What should a recommendation be from this committee about what the CAO can do better, to ensure, when students are in fifth and sixth year looking at their options that are all very clearly there, that apprenticeships are seen?
Ms Liz Farrell:
My own experience is that the website gives you a link to another page and then another link. It does not bring you anywhere. It does not give you a link to a course. You cannot put in, say, "politics". It will give you a link to the NAO but then you have to go and look it up. Say, for instance, I am interested in plumbing, as Mr. Curley was talking about.
I put in recently what apprenticeships are available to me locally and there were four but they may not have been anything I was interested in at the time. It is not local. It is not even that I know I need to go to Dublin for this. You have to find the employer. You have to do too much to actually get to what you want to do. If I know I want to study French, I go onto the CAO and find a French course. I know where that is, I make my choice and I know how many points it is but there are too many links and different ways to do it. There is no real guidance as to how to get to there.
Ms Caitríona Rodgers:
I was going to support the point but what the CAO does really well is you can apply and go back and check that you have your ten level 8s or your ten level 7s or 6s. It signposts information on apprenticeships quite well. I take the point around a link to a link, which can be very challenging, especially for young people who are used to getting information within three clicks and then they are gone. The real gift of the CAO is that it is the one-stop place for them to apply. They fill in their application and whether they are a HEAR candidate or a DARE candidate. Nothing like that is there for the student with AEN who wants to apply for an apprenticeship. I will bring members back to a point earlier when they talked about what supports could be put place. If there is anything within the committee's scope or remit to improve supports for learners with AEN so they can actively engage and succeed on their apprenticeship, that would be so needed.
Mr. Michael Gillespie:
I am either unlucky or lucky; I feel like I have sat the leaving certificate twice in the past three years because I had two daughters doing it. One of the things that amazed me was every couple of weeks they told me that Maynooth University was in the school telling them about the courses they were offering. The University of Limerick was in. The colleges seem to be sending people to each school. They might only talk to them for 20 minutes. They tell them about the course they are doing and about the college life they are going to have. Some of them obviously say that accommodation could be a problem. Not one group came to tell them about apprenticeships. It was all the colleges promoting their college.
I was disappointed even when the technological universities came and they were talking about what courses they were offering through the CAO. Not one of them - and we represent them - mentioned that they also do apprenticeships. They were not exposed to that at all. My first daughter knew exactly what she wanted to do but it did influence my second daughter. She never even thought of apprenticeships. She is not doing one; she is in university and having a great time but that is also part of the problem. They are not exposed to apprenticeships yet there was high exposure with every college coming into schools. I live in the midlands so we had them all coming from every angle.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. Do members have any questions? No. Senator Kennelly is online. Does he wish to contribute? No, he is gone.
On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for coming and for their time. Apprenticeships are something we take very seriously in this committee. We have learned an awful lot over the past couple of weeks from different witnesses. Some things are very clear from the witnesses and that is in relation to time, their resources and that process. It is also very clear and several have mentioned the culture and attitude change in regard to how we look at education and career opportunities and how we encourage that. We all have a job of work to do. I never passed any remarks on it and I am maybe on the other side of it all and I come from a family of trades. It is a really obvious career for someone like me. That is my conscious bias but we must be very aware of and make sure that it is not an obvious thing for everybody, as it was for families like mine. In our recommendations, we have to be very clear that it is about an overall change in culture and how we look at apprenticeships, the information that is available and the time people get to talk about it. Mr. Gillespie made a very valuable point about the colleges coming to the schools and the availability of that exposure, in an umbrella sense, to apprenticeships. It would be a very valuable thing. Maybe it is a recommendation we can give, for the National Apprenticeship Office to be able to do that, along with the CPD as well. I very much appreciate the witnesses' time.
We will now suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to depart before moving into private session to deal with housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.