Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 26 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
School Funding: Department of Education and Youth
2:00 am
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Jen Cummins.
I welcome everyone to the meeting today. As usual, I ask all those attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing to avoid background noise or feedback. I also remind those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or are switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Officials within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have absolute defence against any defamation actions for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Leas-Chathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the House, or an official of the House, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
On the agenda for today's meeting is school funding with reference to capitation funding and ancillary grants. From the Department of Education and Youth I welcome Ms Cliodhna O'Neill, assistant secretary with responsibility for schools, social inclusion and youth; Ms Shirley Kearney, principal officer, schools division financial and database section; Mr. Maurice Boland, principal officer, digital policy for schools; Mr. Cathal Sweeney, assistant principal officer, schools division financial section; Ms Deirdre Murtagh, assistant principal officer, schools division financial section; and Ms Joan Murphy, assistant principal officer, building unit finance. They are all welcome to the committee.
I call Ms O'Neill to make an opening statement, for which she has five minutes. The opening statement will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member will have six-minute slots to ask questions and for the witness to respond.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I thank the committee for the invitation to brief members on school funding with specific reference to capitation funding and ancillary grants. I am an assistant secretary with the Department of education. I am joined today by my colleagues. Over the past number of years, the Government has demonstrated a steadfast commitment to strengthening supports for our schools. Measures in recent years have included increased capitation funding, the allocation of thousands of additional teaching and special needs assistant posts, enhanced supports for school leadership, smaller class sizes, targeted measures to address teacher supply and the provision of free schoolbooks at both primary and post-primary to ease financial pressure on families.
Budget 2026 provides an increase of €845 million in current funding to the Department's Vote. This brings the overall allocation in 2026 to €13.1 billion. The additional funding builds on the significant increases in recent budgets and further enhances the investment in Ireland’s education and youth sectors. The significant increased investment is the largest education budget in the history of the State and reflects the Government’s commitment to a quality, inclusive school system and improved learning outcomes for every student. With regard to the specific funding referenced by the committee in its invitation, the Government is committed to increasing funding to support schools, and the programme for Government commits to increasing capitation funding to schools of all types to ensure schools can meet day-to-day running costs.
The two main grants are the capitation grant to cater for day-to-day running costs such as heating, lighting, cleaning, insurance, general upkeep, etc., and the ancillary related grants to cater for the cost of employing ancillary services staff like secretaries and caretakers. The commitment in the programme for Government builds on the progress made in recent years. Budget 2026 has provided an additional €39 million towards increased capitation funding for primary, post-primary and special schools to provide additional financial support towards their running costs. This will see an increase in the standard mainstream capitation rates paid to schools from September 2026. The increase will consist of €50 per pupil for primary schools, with the standard mainstream rate of capitation rising from €224 to €274, and of €20 per student for post-primary schools, with the standard mainstream rate rising from €386 to €406. This will also allow for an increase of €20 in capitation rates for urban band 1 DEIS primary schools, increasing the mainstream pupil rate in these schools to €294. This marks the first time there is enhanced capitation provided to DEIS urban band 1 schools. The increased rates will also see special schools now receive the same rates of capitation, for young people aged 12 and over, as for their peers in mainstream post-primary schools. This additional funding will benefit schools around the country in managing their day-to-day running costs.
The increases announced in budget 2026 are in addition to the 12% increases provided to schools as part of budget 2025. The past three budgets have resulted in an increase in the level of capitation rates of 49.7%, or €91, paid to primary schools and 28.5%, or €90, paid to post-primary schools. The Department used aggregate data from school accounts over recent years to review key costs and expenditure. This work has helped in informing the Department’s request for increased capitation funding for schools as part of budget 2026. OGP procurement frameworks are available to schools for a number of categories of their spend, including facilities management, managed services, professional services and utilities. Schools should ensure that they are availing of these procurement frameworks to get the best value for money for all school expenditure. The benefits arising from these frameworks include cash savings, administrative savings, greater purchasing expertise, enhanced service levels and legal certainty.
The financial support services unit, FSSU, funded by the Department, is an important source of advice and support to schools on financial matters. Over recent years, additional resources have been made available to our schools, including through the delivery of thousands of extra teaching and special needs assistant posts, increased capitation to schools, supports for school leadership and improved staffing schedule as well as other matters. The Department is aware that costs and funding can be a source of concern for schools and is constantly working to address this matter, and to address the financial and other supports available to schools. The FSSU, funded by the Department, is an important source of advice and support to schools on financial matters and we encourage all schools in difficulty to get in touch with the FSSU. The Department provided approximately €206 million in capitation and ancillary-related funding to primary schools and approximately € 246 million in capitation-related funding to post-primary schools in 2024. I welcome the opportunity to brief the committee, and my colleagues and I are happy to answer its questions.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms O'Neill for her presentation. In comparison with the percentage of GDP other countries spend on education, Ireland would still be considerably lower. It has been for some time. Is there an indication this is going to improve? I know Ms O’Neill says the capitation funding has increased this year and has done so since 2023. She has given us a table with that. However, I know from talking to principals in primary and post-primary schools that they were not receiving sufficient funding to cover the costs of their bills. Inflation means that energy in particular is increasing all of the time. Does the Department have a system whereby it can link the capitation to the costs of energy or other costs that apply to schools? What system does use and how did it arrive at €50 per primary school pupil and €20 per secondary school pupil for this year? What way is that done?
Ms O'Neill is also aware that if schools did not rely on voluntary contributions and fundraising, there would be a huge shortfall every year. Is there any data on that to compare how voluntary contributions differ from school to school? It is unfair on parents, especially if they have a number of children in school because it is not voluntary. It is called a voluntary contribution, but it is not voluntary. I taught in a school for years. It was called a voluntary contribution, but parents were expected to pay it. In fact, the children did not get their locker key or school journal if it was not paid. It was not like it was done quietly or anything like that. People knew who had paid and who had not. Is there a plan to eradicate the need for voluntary contributions in our schools? Ms O'Neill also spoke of schools of 60 or less. Why is it 60 or less? We heard of schools last year where they had fewer students than staff in the school, and they were getting the equivalent of a school with 60 pupils. How is that fair? Is there a number less than 60? Schools with 60 or less get the same amount of funding. A school of five gets the equivalent of a school with 60. How is that fair, and what measures can be taken to ensure that does not continue? If there is time I will come back with further questions.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I might bring in colleagues as we go. I will start with the amounts and how we calculated the request for increases. Over the past number of years, schools have been required to return their accounts to the FSSU. For the first time, in the most recent year, we were able to bring together the aggregate data of those accounts to begin to build a picture of schools’ accounts, typical spend and where there might be difficulty and so on. Using that data, we were able to ascertain the extent to which schools might need additional funding. We could clearly see there was more of a need at primary than at post-primary. The figure of €50, which we were pleased the Minister was able to procure in the budget negotiations, was reached by analysis of the spend schools had across a range of areas. We are continuing to analyse that data and will continue to build that picture in coming years as we get ongoing aggregate data from schools which we are able to analyse across different areas of spend.
The Department is extremely clear that voluntary contributions must be just that, voluntary. That message must be given clearly by schools. It is prohibited under the terms of the schoolbook grant scheme to stop a school journal being given to a child. A school journal must always be provided. Schools are permitted to charge separately in respect of a locker, if that service is provided, but it should not be linked to the voluntary contribution. If we hear of that, we follow up immediately on it with the school. It is not permitted, and we are keen to ensure it does not happen because precisely the situation the Senator described should never happen. Of course, schools are registered charities and are entitled to fundraise and ask for contributions, but they must be voluntary in nature. We are very clear on that point.
In terms of the long-term plan, because we now have access to this data, we will be able to build an ongoing picture of spending. That is something we are very committed to doing. I have not yet had the opportunity to discuss in detail with the Minister, but will be doing so, what our plans might be to build out modelling for school finances into the future.
On the 60-pupil rate, schools have fixed costs. The size of the electricity bill does not necessarily depend on the number of children in the room. The bill is still going to be the same. We are very aware of the fixed costs. The rate for schools with 60 or more students has been in place for quite a number of years. I am not sure how many, but we can find that out. It was chosen as the correct point on the scale that is fair for schools to ensure that fixed costs can be met. Below that point, schools might struggle. We can see from the data that schools in that range are, in general, doing fine. We would not be looking to change that any time soon based on the data we have.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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My point was about schools with hardly any pupils that are receiving a considerable amount of taxpayers' money in funding. Is there a number below which a school should not be allowed to operate?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
That is a separate question. The first question is whether a school needs an amount of money to operate. That is judged on the grounds of the 60 pupils. Amalgamations and closures are matters in the first instance for the patron. School patrons can and do come forward to the Department to say they do not think a particular school is viable. We are always happy to discuss that. It is obviously Government policy to support small schools, and there is a commitment in the programme for Government in relation to such schools. We are always happy and willing. In fact, we have ongoing dialogue with patron bodies and individual patrons in respect of schools that they may not feel have a viable future. We are happy to work with school patrons in that regard.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as ucht a bheith anseo ar maidin agus as ár dtuairimí agus ár gceisteanna a thógáil ar bord.
I fulsomely acknowledge that in the 15 years since January 2011, the primary school capitation grant has increased by 37%, from €200 per pupil to €274 from 1 January next. Unfortunately, the history of it is that the grant was slashed from 2012 and only restored to €200 two years ago. The €50 increase from budget 2026, while very welcome, only brings this grant to €1.50 per child per school day. I absolutely believe that until the primary capitation grant reaches approximately €400 per child, schools will inevitably rely on local fundraising to balance their books. The massive disparity between the funding of post-primary schools and primary schools is to me, a former primary school teacher, ever inexplicable and unjustifiable. Ireland's direct funding of primary education is €812 per student per annum less than the OECD average, according to Education at a Glance 2024. To close that deficit, the Department of Education and Youth would need to increase investment by €203 per student in the remaining years of the current Government, provided that the other OECD nations were to stand right still.
The ancillary service, which is a feature of our discussions today, is intended to cover the wages of essential support staff, including school secretaries, caretakers and cleaners. Until such time as those key workers are paid directly by the Department of Education and Youth, with public service status and conditions, this grant really must be increased dramatically. With auto-enrolment in pension schemes commencing in January, boards of management will be faced with restricting weekly hours of attendance in order to find the money to make pension contributions. The grant has not been increased for over a decade. It ought to be doubled at this stage to ensure that schools have the vital support staff required.
Our colleagues the primary principals are frustrated by the failure of the Government to provide a definitive annual grants calendar and certainty regarding the minor works grant, which is often a feature of school life, such as it exists during the summer months. The provision of funding towards the enactment of the redevelopment curriculum last November was very much welcomed, as was the further provision in budget 2026. That support really must continue through the roll-out of the curriculum. Those of us who have seen curriculums come and go know that without that support, it is the nature of curriculum change that much of what is new and often desirable will be strangled at birth in the average classroom, which, I assure the committee, does not exist. There is no such thing as the average classroom. Each classroom has its own exigencies.
That is my contribution. I would like to hear the responses, which I hope will be encouraging. I understand the function of the civil servants. They are rehearsing Government policy and decisions, and I know the restrictions. I would be interested to hear their observations nevertheless.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I will come back to the Senator on his contribution in relation to GDP and so on. I will come back to that in a second and might just work through some of the other matters.
In respect of the grant, the capitation level and where we are now, we are conscious that it was a restoration to the €200 level. We are confident, based on the data and the analysis we have done, that the significant increase of €50 for the mainstream rate for primary school will make a significant difference.
I also point to the fact that we have for the first time introduced that increase in DEIS urban band 1 schools. That is significant. It is the first time there has been a differentiation. The former Minister had strongly indicated her intention to introduce the DEIS plus model in schools and to introduce a new DEIS plan. Bringing forward that change in order that we have additional capitation going into those DEIS urban band 1 schools is extremely important.
The Senator talked about the difference in the rate between primary and post-primary. It is difficult to make precise comparisons but, in general, post-primary schools are much larger and have specialist rooms. They have a requirement for specialist equipment, including laboratories and workshops. They have higher unit costs for heat, light, power, maintenance and cleaning. We can see that across the data. Additional resources are required at post-primary level for particular subjects. There has always been a higher rate, and that is the reason for the difference in the level of capitation grant funding provided to primary and post-primary schools. There was a decision made this year to provide a higher rate of grant increase at primary level, and we believe that is justified, based on the data and information. In fact, many of the post-primary stakeholders even said that to us. They told us they understood the rationale.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Is that likely to continue?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I do not know. Our advice will be led by the data. We will continue to look at it and see what it tells us in the returns from this year when we get the accounts from the schools. That progress, that we are able to do that now, is significant.
The Senator also asked about the ancillary grant and auto-enrolment. The first thing to say, of course, is that the matter in respect of the secretaries is before the Labour Court at the moment, so I cannot address it.
In relation to anybody employed by a school who is not a public servant, my understanding is that, subject to any other changes, they will come under the requirement for auto-enrolment where they are eligible. In the first year, that will be a 1% increase. We we will be conscious of that as auto-enrolment expands in the coming years. This will also form part of our budget case as the scheme expands.
On the annual grants calendar, it is certainly something we will be discussing with the Minister in the context of whether there is a possibility to have a more defined calendar. The FSSU provides guidance and information to schools as to the likely timing of school grants, and it is more or less understood. For example, the ancillary grant was paid yesterday. That is expected at this time of year, so it is more or less the framework for a calendar. There are some grants that change from year to year, dependent on funding.
In relation to the curriculum development funding-----
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I have let this run-----
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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That is all right. I imagine there will be another round. Ms O'Neill can come in earlier the next time.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Aisling Dempsey.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here. It is much appreciated. I just want to focus on the ancillary grant changes due to the payment to secretaries on Department payroll. I just want to read the following into the record:
In the 2023/24 school year, schools [were] paid the usual ancillary grant amount, minus the amount that [they] previously paid to grant-funded secretaries prior to the acceptance of the new terms and conditions. Schools are ... [not] disadvantaged by this, as the grant [has been] reduced only by the amount [schools] previously paid to their secretaries.
On Tuesday, I received an email from a school in my area in Navan. It is a DEIS II school that is located in an older building that needs a lot of maintenance and work. I refer to St. Anne's Loreto Primary School. The email states that since the retirement of its long-standing caretaker at the end of September, the school has been left without a caretaker. Despite repeated correspondence between the school and the Department, the matter remains unresolved. The email goes on to state that under the Department's current ancillary funding formula, the school is unable to receive any financial support to employ a full-time caretaker because the entire allocation is offset by the Department-paid secretary's salary. The email also states that this leaves the school in an impossible position of being a primary school of over 300 pupils that is expected to operate safely, efficiently and compliantly without any caretaker support whatsoever. It further states that the principal has to clean toilets, parents are coming in to do certain work and the board has to fund a caretaker.
It did not make sense that these two things do not correlate. I spoke to the principal this morning and was informed that the school's full-time secretary was already paid under ancillary funding and that the caretaker who retired was paid under the 1978-79 scheme. The latter has been replaced by the ancillary funding. The school got its remittance advice today based on the payment that was made yesterday. It will receive four twelfths of that, which will not pay for a full-time caretaker. What should the school do? I understand that this matter is a bit nuanced, but given that caretakers generally are long serving, I am sure this school is not unique. What is the resolution to enable the school to be able to replace its full-time caretaker?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I am going to bring in some colleagues. To provide a bit of the background, however, it is the case that where secretaries came onto the payroll, the grant, as the Deputy said, is reduced by the amount that the schools uses to pay those secretaries. In the vast majority of cases, this means that schools are doing better because the rate has increased for secretaries. The Department has taken the hit in terms of the difference, however, so schools' grants are being reduced by the amount they use to pay their secretaries, even though those secretaries are now paid more. Had the secretary not opted to come onto the payroll, the school would be paying that secretary at a higher rate. In the main, schools are doing better.
There are some nuances to this, as the Deputy said, because we have secretaries that were postholders, either secretaries or caretakers, under the 1978-79 scheme. Where there is a retirement, what happens is that there is a reversion in respect of funding in the context of schools being eligible for an ancillary grant they were not previously eligible for. I assume this is why that school has now got a remittance. I do not have the details of the particular case in front of me-----
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, of course.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
-----but that would be why the school would get a remittance to say this funding is now available to it in order that it can hire somebody directly. The four twelfths would relate to the fact that the ancillary funding is for the next four months as opposed to for the entire year. Mr. Sweeney might like to come in at this point.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Mr. Cathal Sweeney:
We engage with schools regularly in order to try to make this as simple as possible. The 1978-79 scheme is an age-old scheme that was discontinued. Schools may have a secretary or a caretaker paid by the Department, so they no longer can replace those employed many years ago. More than 100 employees are still employed by schools and are on Department payroll under the 1978-79 scheme. If a school has a secretary and a caretaker on the Department payroll under the scheme, it does not qualify for any ancillary grants. If it has a caretaker or a secretary, it will qualify for a reduced rate. The majority of schools do not have any 1978-79 scheme employees, so they get the full rate. The full rate for primary schools is €173 and the reduced rate is €89.50. As the Deputy mentioned, the principal of the school in question has a secretary on the Department payroll, so the school would have provided the salary information to payroll on what the school was previously paying prior to the acceptance of the Workplace Relations Commission deal. That is then used to reduce the ancillary grant.
For this particular school, since the 1978-79 scheme caretaker retired, the school will have received the full grant funding allocated, minus the secretary's salary the school was previously paying. It is up to the board to then allocate its budget as per its priorities. For schools that are finding it difficult or facing financial challenges, the FSSU is there to provide support for them and to assist them with financial matters and their budgeting and cash-flow processes.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I may have misunderstood, but the principal informed me that the school's secretary was directly employed by the Department via onboarding.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. They are paid by the school.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I have got it.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Who should the school engage with then?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The school can contact the section directly, the Department directly or the FSSU. We can talk the school through the next step. We always check that the grant is correct, that the reduction has been applied correctly and that the data we have is correct. The FSSU will then work with the school through its cash flow to see what is appropriate and what is an appropriate level of spending, because we do find sometimes that schools might not have a comparator and might not understand that another school of the same size has a smaller bill in respect of something.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms O'Neill.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy and Senator Linda Nelson Murray.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Even with capitation grants and everything, schools just never seem to have enough money. I play the lotto every week in my kid's school. I actually detest the thought of schools running lottos. I really do not like it with the whole gambling thing and so on, but I understand that schools have to do things to get money in. The school is trying to run its operation efficiently enough. We have to send in a little towel every week instead of the kids using paper towels or hand dryers. I send in a little tea towel with them. The food waste comes home, and there is no putting litter in any bins. The school is trying to do its best, but it just always seems to be struggling.
I just want to read out something I got from another school. It is a special school in County Meath. I asked about capitation. The email states that the school's bugbear for the past three years since its special class was set up and paid for, including building equipment, etc., by the Department of education is a lack of funding for specialist training for all its staff and for peg feeds, epilepsy, manual handling, first aid, suctioning - most of which has to be done every two years to be up to date - maintenance and servicing of equipment. It goes on to state that every hoist and changing table that has a motor fitted in order to allow it to raise and lower children and all the sensory room equipment must be serviced every six months to 12 months, by both the manufacturers and the insurance company, otherwise it is not covered.
There are elevated cleaning costs and PPE materials for top-level hygiene and all their pupils are at high risk of infection. The email goes on to state costs are outrageous - somewhere in the region of €5,000 to €6,000 per year - and not to let any person tell you that enhanced capitation grants for special class pupils is designed to cover this. This year, even though they have had five children from September, the Department based the capitation on the previous year, totalling €1,340. They are running a deficit of about €4,000 per year on one class. The only thing keeping them afloat is parents' fundraising and taking money from the minor works grant given to the school that is supposed to be for the upkeep of the mainstream school building.
That is an angry principal there. A parent had approached them and said they needed a special classroom for complex special needs children and the principal did it. It is the most beautiful space. I would recommend anybody to go to see it but they are under pressure in terms of how they fund that. I wanted to use my couple of minutes here to make this point and ask what is around the corner for special classrooms like this.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I read about them.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
As the Senator's correspondent wrote, there is additional capitation for special classes and that is important. There was something there abut the minor works grant and the upkeep of the mainstream school. Obviously the minor works grant is for the upkeep of the whole school, including-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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The correspondent is saying they are different income streams.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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This is attached to a whole mainstream school and they need to use it for that as well. The principal is not talking about the main school but about this one room with hoists and everything.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Fair enough, we have established that.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I have heard points made previously in respect of maintenance and equipment and we will discuss the matter further with our colleagues in special education. There are specific grants such as equipment grants and so on. My understanding is that it comes into the general capitation of the school, when it comes to maintenance and so on. Recognising that there are large numbers of new special classes across the country, the intention is the extremely large addition in capitation will be designed to cover those increases as well because so many schools now have special classes that they did not previously have. The increase of €50 per pupil or €70 per pupil in a DEIS school is designed to help to support that and to be aware of the fact there are increased costs in schools as there are in certain other areas, to do with adherence to fire regulations and so on. There are additional costs so that is why the capitation increase is so large.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I feel that, in general, the capitation increase this year has been very welcome. We did fulfil one of the asks in terms of what we were being asked for by schools. With the increase we got this year, across all of the schools, do the witnesses see us ever not having to fundraise to keep things going in a school? Do they see us ever getting to a stage where parents are not put under that pressure?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
It very much depends. As somebody said earlier, there is no such thing as a typical classroom and no such thing as a typical school. Schools vary so widely in everything from building - and the costs, design and nature of the building - to class size and the size of the enrolment in the school. All of those things have a bearing on cost. Different schools have different spending traditions and priorities and so on. We see schools that do very little on the fundraising side and manage within their budgets and then other schools that have a lot of additionality from the funding they bring in.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Is it the schools in older buildings that have to spend more? Does Ms O'Neill find that the schools in newer buildings are not spending as much and are more cost effective?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
There certainly are principals of schools in newer buildings who tell us there are costs they had not anticipated in new buildings because, for example, they have an elevator and other different maintenance costs. In the main, it evens out. I am not sure whether Ms Murphy might have information but in schools that are retrofitted, for example, we have definitely seen cost savings on energy and so on. One of the key points to make - and I will stress this because it is important - is we definitely see huge cost savings for schools when they join the OGP frameworks and not all schools necessarily do that. We stress this all of the time with schools and management bodies, that the rates they get are almost always much better than they would get on the open market so they can make significant savings when they join the OGP frameworks. One of the first things the FSSU will do is look at that.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. The witnesses spoke about a €50 increase schools will see next September and that is welcome. There is aggregated data the Department is looking at for the first time. What is the shortfall in primary and in secondary schools? The INTO and various patron bodies said they needed €75 in this budget. What is the shortfall based on the Department's own analysis?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my question. My question is, what is the shortfall?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Again there are different amounts for different schools but the average funding for a student, including enhanced rates, is €224 and we have seen there can be a funding shortfall. It depends entirely on school size and different things but we have seen funding shortfalls at the moment in different school types, which have been made up in the past number of years by the once-off payments. There is not a single answer, because-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Let me ask the question this way. The Department has aggregated data from every school in Ireland in terms of their running costs.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The Department gives schools capitation and ancillary grants. If we take the capitation and ancillary grants away from their spend, what is that figure? From the aggregated data, what is the shortfall? The Department gives them capitation and ancillary grants to run their schools. They say to us that this funding does not meet their outgoings.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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No, I-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking a clear question here.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms O'Neill said the Department has aggregated data from all schools. On the ancillary grant plus the capitation the Department is giving them-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Across all schools, take that away from what the overall spend is, regardless of whether the school is spending it on extracurricular activity or other things. The major concern here is that the funding from central government is going nowhere near the increased costs schools are living with daily.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I want to get-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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If Ms O'Neill could, because the patron bodies and the INTO say it would take €75 to make up for the historical deficits and that type of thing. I want to know what the Department's assessment of that is seeing as it has, for the first time ever, all of the aggregated data. I think it is a reasonable question.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I get that.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What I am trying to get to here are the increased fixed costs schools have in terms of insurance and energy, which are increasing year on year. What does that look like compared with the increased funding it is acknowledged the Department is giving? I would like a very clear picture from the Department on that. The €50 is welcome. That is fine. The Minister and Government representatives will say that for sure. I can reasonably ask what does it mean. Parents reasonably ask it, particularly when they are being asked to contribute to so-called voluntary contributions.
Is there an overall figure for what is coming into our primary and secondary school system by way of voluntary contributions?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is that primary and secondary schools?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It is the two of them together. It is €23 million in total that parents of school-going children are contributing to schools.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I get you 100%.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to get a picture-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks for that. I am just trying to get a picture here. There is €206 million for primary schools and €246 million for secondary schools, and I point to the fact we are spending about €350 million on hot school meals. This is something school principals and schoolteachers say to me regularly about State spending on education. What is the breakdown for what is capitation and what is ancillary in that?
Ms Deirdre Murtagh:
The €206 million for primary is broken down to €125 million for capitation, €57 million for ancillary and €23.6 million for cost of living; those are 2024 figures. The €246 million for post-primary is broken down as for €154.8 million capitation-related, €69.3 million for ancillary and €21.5 million for cost of living.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What was the ancillary for that one?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I make the point there is no cost-of-living package for next year, so that €44 million is not there.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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My first question relates to voluntary contributions. Does the Department have a view on voluntary contributions in an ideal world where they would not be required?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The first thing I will say about voluntary contributions is they must be characterised as voluntary. They should not ever be required. No child should ever be asked for a voluntary contribution and nothing should be dependent on a voluntary contribution being received from a family. I said to one of the Deputy's colleagues that if there were ever an instance of that, we would act very quickly, if that is ever reported to us. There should not ever be an instance of a child not receiving.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I asked that because I am coming across more and more schools, and this is the next point I will get to, which are seeing demographics change in the school, where it is harder to ask families for voluntary contributions. A lot of it relates to refugee centres in certain towns, which is the point I want to get to. Before I get there, is there a value on how much capitation grants or other funding to schools would have to increase by nationally in order for voluntary contributions to no longer be required? How much would schools have to be properly funded by before those would no longer be needed?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
That is a similar question to the one asked by Deputy O'Rourke. We committed to coming back with some information in respect of what we know about the difference between what schools receive and what they spend. Where we have that data, schools make decisions to spend based on what they have in front of them. It might be the case that they might make different decisions if they do not have access to specific amounts of funding, or they might choose to prioritise their funding in different ways. It is a very difficult question to answer.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I would appreciate whatever data we can get to guide us on that. I also appreciate the previous question on it. The reason I ask is that a number of schools in my constituency have come to me that have IPAS centres, or centres for Ukrainians, close to the school or in the town, whichever the case may be. I am thinking of two primary schools in particular right now. Essentially, what is happening is the needs in those schools are increasing quite dramatically in terms of additional language needs or other needs. More funding is needed for those schools to meet the basic needs of the children in them. At the same time, while the number of enrolments of children from those backgrounds is increasing, who are naturally coming with higher needs and higher demands on school finances, I am seeing a number of schools now, and two in particular, where local families are no longer sending their children in the same numbers to those schools. Instead of sending their children to the primary school in the town, they might be sending their children to a rural primary school that is now seeing its numbers balloon.
That is fine for that rural primary school, but my worry is for those schools in the town that are being impacted. They are doing incredible work. I am not taking from that at all, or from the children getting the education they deserve from those centres, but we are now seeing the level of demand in those schools and the level of resources they need increase while, at the same time, we are seeing families coming from socioeconomic backgrounds who cannot provide the same level of voluntary funding or do the same level of fundraising. The local families who would be able to fundraise in the area or might have some more means to provide for the school through voluntary contributions have, at the same time, now moved out of the school. It is leaving a gap for those schools and I am worried they will end up in a spiral, essentially, in that situation. Has the Department looked at those schools, and the resources being provided to them, to see how we can stop that from happening?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
On resources, where children have additional needs in terms of staffing, schools can make applications in respect of that. For example, a number of schools have had many more students arriving, possibly for the first time in those schools' history, with English language needs. An application can be made in relation to supports for English as an additional language. Those are made continually and provided-----
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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How long does that post last for, when a school applies for that additional teacher for language needs?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
It depends on what provision there already is in the school. If there is already provision in the school, it may be that it is judged the school can operate fine with the resources it has, or it may be that an additional resource is allocated to the school. The provision is normally that a child would usually need two years of additional language input. There is then an assessment process, which can be extended where necessary. If there is a turnover of children, it is based on the individual children-----
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Or if by the time that child has progressed, there are other children coming in as well.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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The school is constantly in a process of trying to keep those resources, even if it is moving from one child to the next.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
It is an annual process because it is based, as I said, on the specific needs of the children in the school at that time. Sometimes, that population can be transient, so it is important that we have data on what children are actually there. That is a very live process. It happens regularly that schools receive those resources on a rolling basis. Likewise, where there are additional needs, we have enhanced capitation rates, which are available to schools. Schools provide the data to the Department in respect of the additional needs. Those enhanced capitation rates are calculated and provided to the schools.
There are also schools in the DEIS programme that receive additional supports. A lot of the schools the Deputy referred to might be in a programme or may not be. If they are, they are obviously in receipt of additional supports by dint of that, including the DEIS grant. I hope that goes some way towards-----
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I know my time is nearly up. I will round back on my point before I go to why I am asking about the level of funding that could be required to get rid of the voluntary contribution. It links back to my entire point to begin with on those schools that are not able to get the same of fundraising done, or the same level of voluntary contribution in. It is about how we get to a stage where that is no longer necessary and those schools are no longer caught in that spiral. The data Deputy O'Rourke asked for would be very much appreciated.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I have been a teacher for a long time. There has been a lot of correspondence through my office from my friends, my principal and boards of management. The lack of funding for capitation is just shocking. This is putting an amount of stress on our principals, and on small rural schools and the particular challenges they face.
I will use my time to give voice to one principal in my constituency of Kildare South. Dr. Vincent Thorpe is the principal of Scoil Bhríde in Nurney. I have been corresponding with him for six months now. I will read a bit from one of the latest emails from him. He said to me that if the school receives this capitation grant, it will allow it to keep the lights and heat on over the winter months, maintain the building and pay its insurance. He also stated the school is making sizeable cuts to ensure it can be kept afloat until either prices go down or funding increases. He further states the school has dropped the school music programme with Music Generation in Kildare; cut the use of paper towels from its infectious disease measures; doubled the price of swimming lessons for a family; ceased all planned spending on curricular equipment for science, history and geography; and all upgrades to ICT equipment are now ceased with immediate effect until future ICT grant funding is guaranteed in terms of the amount and the arrival date.
This is just kicking a problem down the road. The funding issue is not going to go away. The simple fact of the matter is that the capitation grant, including its timing, is barely keeping the schools paying their bills. How confident is the Department that the increases made this year will meet the actual day-to-day running costs of schools and what evidence shows that the level of increase covers regular costs?
I also want to ask if the witnesses can comment on this email. It is again from Dr. Thorpe, who told me in another email about how the ICT grant the school was to get in April 2023 had never arrived. The grant would have been worth €90,000 to the school. They went out and purchased a set of iPads for the school for around €9,000. They have never recovered from that. In the email, the principal wrote about how heartbreaking and stressful it was, especially for volunteer board members. This is going on. How confident are the witnesses that we can fix this?
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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It is one stream of every class.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Okay. The increase of €50 per pupil - I presume it is not a DEIS school - should be significant in a school that size. We would certainly be happy to talk to the principal and help the school with the FSSU to make sure it is getting the best value for all of its spend. That is really important. Across things like electricity, insurance and those other issues the Deputy mentioned, it is possible to make good savings. Many schools go to very good lengths to try to ensure they make savings, but we sometimes find that they have not managed to make the change that might be possible. We are very happy for the FSSU to help the school with its cash flow and investigate to see if there are changes that can be made.
I am going to bring in Mr. Boland on the ICT grants.
In relation to the programmes, it is sometimes useful for schools to look at the schoolbook grant and how that can be best used after schoolbooks have been purchased. Now, schools have a stock of books, particularly at primary level, that can be reused. That grant has been relatively consistent in terms of its amount, so it leaves an amount in many schools that can be used for classroom resources. After books and stationery have been provided, there is usually a residual amount that can be used. That is a new grant. Many schools have made use of that to good effect in providing good classroom resources. We have found that to be very useful for schools.
Mr. Maurice Boland:
I thank the Deputy for her concerns and questions. On the ICT grants, we provide a grant for schools for ICT equipment. Since 2015, we have provided €345 million for grants for schools to buy devices for teachers and students. Our current digital strategy for schools is underpinned by €200 million in funding under Ireland's national development plan. We envision the next tranche of funding to be paid in the ICT grant in January of next year, which is good news for schools.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Will that go to the schools that were to get it that never received it, or is that new applications?
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that is correct.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Boland.
Mr. Maurice Boland:
In the 2023-24 term, we paid €15 million in ICT grants. The school's grant would have been paid on 24 April of that year, so we will reach out to the principal and investigate why the schools did not receive funding.
We provide ICT funding for schools, but we also provide supports through the Oide technology in education, Oide TIE, division. We provide services where a school can plan how it spends the ICT grant. Under the Education Act, school management boards obviously have autonomy in terms of how they use the grants. We have seen multiple schools across Ireland that have different levels of maturity in terms of how they use technology. Working with Oide TIE, we provide resources and supports for schools to utilise that grant effectively. We can engage with that particular principal and provide the school with supports if needs be.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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That is fantastic. I really have been struggling with how to help this particular school. I will get my office to contact Mr. Boland to get that help.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am up next and hopefully we will have a second round of questions thereafter. I apologise. Wednesdays can be quite chaotic, given speaking times in the Dáil and how everything was happening at once. The rest of the day is not as chaotic.
I thank the witnesses for being here. The INTO, of which I confess I am still a member, lobbied extensively for capitation to be increased in the budget and, lo and behold, it was increased on budget day. What is the algorithm that the Department uses to calculate the needs of a primary child versus the needs of a secondary child? Even with the latest increases, we are now looking at €274 per child in primary and special school and €406 per child in secondary school. I would argue, as someone who was in the primary school profession for years, that the outlays needed at primary school level - the resource-rich classroom and the print-rich environment that the Department says in its guidance schools have to have in abundance - mean there is a greater need to spend on our younger students as opposed to those in second level. What is the algorithm or logic behind the differential?
Ms Shirley Kearney:
I thank the Chair. I am happy to take that. It is difficult to make precise comparisons between primary and post-primary schools but, in general, post-primary schools are larger and have specialist rooms such as woodwork, technology and home economic rooms, so their utility costs tend to be greater. That is the reasoning behind the higher capitation payment rate at post-primary. That said, we recognised, particularly when putting forward our case for budget 2026, that there was a need for increased funding at primary level as well. That is reflected in the rate of €50 increase at primary while the rate of post-primary was smaller.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Department publish the algorithm and circulate it to us? There must be some calculation that the Department is working off of. The Minister goes to the Department early in the year and says she is going to negotiate with the Minister for public expenditure and look for more money. The teachers' unions are bearing down on the Minister and everyone wants more money, but there must be some in-house calculation. I respect what Ms Kearney said about specialist subjects, labs, woodwork rooms and whatnot, but could the witnesses circulate to us in writing what that algorithm or formula is?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
There is not a formula or an algorithm. We have the amount that we have currently. This year, for the first time since having the data, we looked at what was available in schools, what funding was being spent and to what extent there was the possibility of an increase. We looked at where the need was greatest, and the need was certainly greater in primary schools.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If it is not hugely sensitive, will the Department please provide us with the analysis it did in writing? That was what made its way into budget 2026, which was only a few weeks back, and that is what schools are clinging onto for the next 12 months. I ask for that to be circulated.
I wish to ask Ms O'Neill about DEIS. I do not believe this is a tangent from what we are discussing. In fact, it is intrinsic. I have a huge problem with how we categorise DEIS schools at the moment. It is tied into the census, which happens in five-year cycles, and the Pobal statistics that arise from the census, and it takes no account for transience, wars in Ukraine and Gaza, or Traveller students who, because of how they live culturally, can move on. It does not take into account the rental market and the amount of people who move from one rental home to another. Villages can be quite static and the socioeconomic profile can remain similar, but if we take town or suburban schools, they can change dramatically across a five-year cycle. I contend that a child captured within a census and the Pobal statistics can be gone from the secondary or primary system by the time their enrolment is factored for. It is way too rigid. It takes no account of any of that. We need to move into some kind of annual format where schools would provide their own censuses. We have all of that information in abundance. Is there a way that this model could come out? The Minister, Deputy McEntee, before she moved on to her new Ministry, said she would have news by the end of the year.
When are we going to hear about the new model and when the other schools will receive categorisations?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I think we have referenced previously how the DEIS identification model works. It is incredibly complex. I am not a subject matter expert, but I will give, to the best of my ability, the DEIS ID model. The Pobal HP deprivation index, as the Cathaoirleach mentioned, is the cornerstone of the model. It uses data compiled from the national census. It is used by several State agencies for the identification of disadvantage. When the model was identified in 2017, it was based on the concept of assessing the percentage of students with a HP index of -10 or below, where -10 represents the HP score of one standard deviation below the mean and the point at which the label "disadvantaged" is applied by the index.
The DEIS plan published in 2017 noted that we needed further analysis and further refinements. That is something that we have been able to do. A technical group involving experts in the field set out to identify refinements, providing a model which would provide supports to children with the highest level of disadvantages and prioritise those schools with the highest concentration of disadvantage, and then be consistent with the allocation of resources on a sliding scale because we have different bands in DEIS, as the Cathaoirleach will know. The model now accounts for students who are from areas designated borderline disadvantaged, that is, those with a HP index score of between -7.5 and -10, which is better than the version in 2017 because we were able to extend the DEIS programme.
There is then a weighted programme. The school-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. I say this every week but I have to apply the rules to myself as well.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have much of a problem with the formula. My gripe is that it happens in five-year cycles.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The application of the data is the point. The data was last applied in 2022-23. As part of the DEIS programme and strategy, the Minister, who, again, has been in post for a week, has indicated to us that she will look at this as a priority to understand when the DEIS programme can best be published.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In the digital age, I do not think the data set should be census and Pobal statistics. There has to be a way for accounting for our students in real time, as they are enrolled in the school and working their way from September to June. It needs to be more fluid.
Members may have a third round of questions. It depends on how many members come back into the room. For now, I will allow members three minutes of additional questioning. They may get in again thereafter. I call Deputy Aisling Dempsey.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I return to my school in Navan. Maths is not my strong point, so the witnesses might let me know if these figures are right. If a school of 300 pupils with DEIS 2 status is in an old building, with everything that brings, wanted to employ a caretaker, I am guessing from looking online that the lowest hourly rate it could pay would be about €14.65. Would the witnesses agree with that?
Mr. Cathal Sweeney:
The employment of a caretaker is up to the board of management in line with current legislation. The national minimum wage would apply there. The pay scales that are there are for secretaries who have accepted the Workplace Relations Commission deal and have moved onto the payroll. There is no pay scale for caretakers, who are still grant-funded by the board.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will take the figure of €14.65. Would the witnesses consider it reasonable that a school such as I have described would need a caretaker for 25 hours a week?
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The school cannot decide that on what it believes to be its needs if it is only receiving €12,786 to pay a caretaker, which is-----
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
A point I did not get a chance to make is that the ancillary grant and capitation grant are a common grant - that is noted in the circulars - from which schools can define their priorities. If they wished to use funding from their capitation grant to augment the ancillary grant, they are permitted to do so. Equally, some schools do not have a secretary and choose not to have one, or they only have a small amount and use that funding for other things. They are entirely permitted to do that. It is a matter for the school.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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In theory, that sounds reasonable, but my colleagues have gone through a lot of the issues with the capitation grant and how it is not covering the costs it should be covering at the moment. At a rate of €14.65 per hour for 25 hours a week, that caretaker is going to be paid for 35 weeks of the year. That is just the way it is. We need to do something to ensure that people are cleaning our schools and our children are safe. The school in question has reported accidents to me because of wet floors. The principal was heading out this morning to unblock toilets. This is an issue we need to focus on.
My colleague raised ICT grants. Why are they not annual? Given the importance of IT and IT equipment continuously needing to be replaced and upgraded, why is that grant not annual?
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will be nice to Mr. Boland. He should have told me beforehand.
Mr. Maurice Boland:
I mentioned that the digital strategy for schools goes from 2022 to 2027. A total of €200 million was allocated under Ireland's national development plan. That allocation was not per year. It has been paid every year apart from the academic year 2022-23. The reason for that was due to wider capital needs of the Department at the time, including the building programme, to ensure the supply of school accommodation was the reason it was not paid out.
We do have clarity over the next tranche of funding. That should be paid early January next year. We will pay the remainder of the grants then and that will bring us to the end of the current digital strategy for schools. We will be working on planning our new digital strategy for schools. We are committed to understanding how schools are utilising the current funding. Again, schools have autonomy in terms of how they utilise technologies, but we provide supports with Oide TiE in terms of how they can best utilise technology. That is an important point. It is not just grants; we also provide additional services.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to allow a similar overrun for everyone to balance the times for all members. I call Deputy Ryan O'Meara.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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Following on from Deputy Dempsey's point in relation to schools choosing priorities, I find the response difficult to accept. The simple fact is the capitation grant increase is very welcome, has been a huge benefit and relieved a lot of pressure, but schools are still not getting the funding they need. Let us not pretend they are, particularly in relation to funding for a caretaker, to give an example. I was in one school recently, where the principal, prior to going back to education to train to be a teacher, worked in construction. He acts as a school caretaker for his school for funding reasons. He is already too busy to do that but he has to go around the school fixing everything and doing whatever else needs to be done. Were the school not so lucky to have a principal in that position, what would it be doing? It would be choosing from other things.
It is not as if the school has extra resources that other schools do not have because it does not have to pay another person to come in and be a caretaker. It is just making ends meet. In my previous example in relation to capitation funding or funding for schools with additional levels of needs for students coming from IPAS centres and Ukrainian accommodation, I did not name any of the schools. The son of the principal of one of those schools comes into the school to do a lot of the caretaking needs because it cannot afford a caretaker either. The level of funding that Deputy Dempsey cited proves that point exactly.
I find it hard to accept that schools have to choose their priorities. Of course, they are not going to have an unlimited amount of funding. I accept that, but it is clear that the level of funding they are getting for that exact service is not up to standard. I raise that while fully recognising that the capitation funding increased. That increase, which we have all raised, was very welcome.
I wanted to make that point because I find it hard to accept. Obviously, every school is prioritising but schools that do not pay for a caretaker are not all of a sudden doing far better in other areas. They are struggling through too.
I have one point I would like to make in the minute I have left. A number of schools have contacted me in relation to legacy Irish Water bills from Covid times. These arose where the school was unoccupied and no water was being used but the bills continued to build up.
I have tried submitting parliamentary questions but, like everything to do with Irish Water, there is no response. Would the Department of education consider introducing a waiver of fees or help for schools to clear their water bills? Quite a lot of schools have legacy Irish Water bills built up from when the schools were closed. These schools have bills hanging over them and they cannot really get to them. Perhaps the Department could emphasise the point that the bills date from a time when nobody was in school. I appreciate that the officials might not have an answer for me today but I would appreciate if they could examine this matter.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
We can certainly take the Irish Water issue away and see what we can find out in respect of bills and how Irish Water has attended to that. It is not something that was on my radar. We have no problem with looking at the matter.
I understand the point the Deputy made about boards of management and their priorities. One thing that repeatedly arises when schools that might be in difficulty are referred to us is ensuring that schools are getting value for money. Of course many schools are and are doing their absolutely best - I fully appreciate that - but we do sometimes find that schools might not be aware of some of the ways in which they can spend less in certain areas or get better value. Again, I point to the contracts that we have seen, cases where we have thousands. We have seen better uptake in recent times. Certainly when schools in difficulty contact us, that is the advice that they would get. We certainly had many schools, for example, outside of the framework that were paying. For example, data from the 2022-23 school year, schools might have been paying up to 78% more on electricity costs if they were not in the framework. We work very hard no ensuring that schools are aware that those things are happening. Unit costs have increased, so the rates are not as good as they should be, but they are still better than what most schools can achieve on their own in relation to market rates.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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We will have pension auto-enrolment and increases in the national minimum wage from the start of next year. Has that been factored into the ancillary grant funding for schools, in terms of caretakers in particular?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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So it is part of the Department's argument.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Increased energy and insurance costs are a good argument to index-link these payments. I hear what Ms O'Neill is saying about getting in with the OGP but I have heard a lot of complaints about the cost of insurance. Has the Department considered or made the case for index-linking these grants?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How many schools contacted or were referred to the FSSU in the school years 2023-24 and 2024-25?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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How do the years compare? Has the pattern changed?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There has been a significant increase. Is there a pattern within those presentations? Is it energy, insurance, all of it or something else? Are they particular types of schools? Are they DEIS or special schools?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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My final questions are on digital devices. There is ICT funding but 45% of secondary schools, or a really high percentage, are now digital schools but that imposes a significant cost on parents. Every time I asked the former Minister about this, and I expect it to be the same for the new Minister, I was told there is an ICT grant and schools can do whatever they want with it, but in real terms it costs parents between €400 and €800. Other places have looked at options. Is there a hardship fund? Is there a plan whereby every school will move in this direction and we will support them in a different way?
Mr. Maurice Boland:
Under the Education Act, boards of management have responsibility for the day-to-day management of the school and make decisions on the use of technology. We advise schools, as part of the funding that the Department provides, to establish a digital learning plan in engagement with the school community of parents, teachers and students. We advise schools to work with that digital learning plan and define how they will utilise technology within the classroom. There are many different types of technology. Some are cheaper and some are more expensive. We do offer really good supports through the Oide technology in education, Oide TIE, website, which offers advice to schools on what technology to implement. As we have already mentioned, there are OGP frameworks and HEAnet frameworks that have really good pricing for devices. I encourage schools to engage with Oide TIE and us on that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will probably have a third round of questions if members want to wait. I will ask some questions and then it will be the turn of Deputy Coppinger, who will be followed by Deputy Currie.
In January 2020, I was in my classroom and a student gave me a Post-it note from another teacher who wanted to alert me to the news that Leo Varadkar had just called a general election so it was time for me to ring a substitute teacher, and get out and hit the campaign trail. I logged off and changed some of my details on my classroom PC. In 2020, that classroom PC was running Windows XP. I did not know when Windows XP had come on the market and when I googled it, I discovered that it had come out in 2001. We were one of those schools where it is loaves and fishes and while we were getting grants, they had to be prioritised, as other members have said. It was a 19-year-old system and each year, bearing in mind different teachers would be in that classroom using that system, some may have added software that may not have been the best software and I do not know whether the PC was virus protected, etc.
I will return to a point that was discussed here at a different committee two years ago. Everything was chaotic. The HSE's systems had been hacked because of a lack of investment and a lack of keeping up to date with security measures. I have no doubt that the mothership of the Department of education, in Athlone, Tullamore and Dublin, has state-of-the-art back-ups, databases and software. Indeed, a lot of schools have them, but when out in the far-off tentacles of the Department in rural outpost schoolsm there is not cutting-edge technology in all classrooms. Sometimes that PC or laptop has really sensitive details relating to, for example, children with special needs, marital break-up or behavioural issues. I would say those details and data are not security protected and those schools do not have the money to have proper systems. Yet, if someone were to hack into the system and gain access to the information, or hack into school accounts, my God, how damaging and injurious it would be to the young people and their families, given that it could relate to test results and all of that sensitive information. Is that a concern for the Department? In light of what happened to the Department of Health, is the Department of education worried that we now have antique computers and laptops in classrooms containing sensitive data? I am not talking about the devices used by students. I am talking about the information-holding technology devices in classrooms.
Mr. Maurice Boland:
On devices used across schools, again schools have autonomy in terms of how technology is embedded within the school. We do provide helpful resources, particularly around cybersecurity, through Oide TIE.
We also provide an acceptable-usage policy generator for schools to generate acceptable uses of different technology applications so that they can define how the application or technology will be used. There would be a data protection element within that, so schools would be required to have a data protection policy.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I accept all that but a data protection policy is not much good if you have a 19-year-old device without proper security or Windows upgrades and you are emailing Tusla as a designated liaison person with sensitive information about children, exam results and family information. I am making a point. I know it is a curve ball and that the witnesses do not have all the answers here today but they need to be auditing the standard of the information-holding devices in schools. A 19-year-old system that does not have proper cybersecurity or software is not adequate, yet that is quite standard across schools. The best device they will have is probably the one that gets brought down on the trolley for the children to do literacy or numeracy on. The teacher is using the antique device over in the corner to input Sigma-T, Micra-T and Drumcondra tests and to email sensitive detail about children to Tusla. That is what I am worried about. Look at what happened to the HSE. We have bad actor countries at the moment. We will not name them here. I think the whole place knows who we are on about. One way to disrupt countries like Ireland now is to go in and hack into one of our sensitive data systems. My God, it could be worse altogether. Whatever about HSE records, if records relating to our young people, their families and their school systems were to be breached in some way, it would be just devastating.
Ms O'Neill wanted to come in.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Yes, I will come in very briefly, though Mr. Boland is the expert on the technology piece. On the governance side, it is a matter for the board of management to be conscious of the data protection legislation and to be on top of that situation. Certainly in our discussions with management boards and management bodies, we will make sure to emphasise that point. Mr. Boland's point about the supports that are available is relevant to that. It is something we stress but I am happy to re-stress it with the relevant bodies.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I may be being overly simplistic now and it is more convoluted than this but perhaps the Department could fund Mr. Boland's team to carry out an online census of each school of what devices it has, how old they are, and what security systems and Windows versions they have? I am talking about the data-holding devices.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have run out of time again. We will go to Deputy Coppinger.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Apologies for being in and out and probably missing questions that I am about to ask. There is a lot of stuff going on today in the Dáil.
As a lot of people know, "voluntary" contributions are something that are routinely asked for by schools, and the amounts vary dramatically. In light of the Department's submissions here today, what is the view of the witnesses on voluntary contributions? Can they confirm the Department is covering schools enough with capitation funding in order for schools not to ask parents to pay?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The view of the Department regarding voluntary contributions is that they must, and can only be, voluntary. They should only be characterised as voluntary and they should never be asked for in respect of anything that is a requirement within the school. No child should in any way be disadvantaged or advantaged by the non-payment of the voluntary contribution. It should be entirely-----
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Is Ms O'Neill happy that all schools should be able to cover the cost of insurance, electricity, all the heating costs, photocopying and anything related to the provision of lessons? Is she happy that they should be able to do that based on the increases that have been awarded in the budget?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The increase of €50 in the capitation grant for primary schools, or €70 in total in the case of DEIS urban band 1 schools, is based on our analysis of what is needed. We are very conscious of the increased cost for schools. Our understanding is that with appropriate spending guards, appropriate use of frameworks and appropriate prudent financial management, it should be possible for schools to function within the budget we provide to them, working within the guidance of the FSSU.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Why did the situation arise recently with the school in west Tallaght, which is a very disadvantaged area? It is an area that is extremely structurally disadvantaged in every way and that school had to announce to parents that it would have to consider closing.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I cannot really comment on an individual school case because I do not have the data in front of me but where a school is in difficulty, we encourage it to contact the Department directly. We can work with the school to determine what the issues are and how they might be best addressed. If it is necessary to provide an advanced payment to a school to help it with a particular cash flow issue, that can be done. However, it is really important that schools engage at an early point with the Department and the FSSU so that any issues that are arising can be dealt with as early as possible.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Does Ms O'Neill think that the enhanced capitation for urban band 1 DEIS schools of an extra €20 is enough for schools to make up the severe disadvantages they have? For example, I went back to teaching during the pandemic. There were no computers, or very few, for the students to use. There was one room with computers but there was over 500 students and people were reliant on using their mobile phones to take pictures and send their homework back, etc. Structurally, there is massive disadvantage there and Ms O'Neill is saying the €20 could make up for that?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I am saying that capitation and ancillary grants are used for a particular purpose. In addition, there is a DEIS grant for DEIS schools and then there is the ICT grant for other purposes. School funding is complex and is made up of a number of different funding streams. Certainly, when we looked at the possibility of enhanced capitation for DEIS schools - this is the first time it has happened - we were very happy to be able to achieve that in the budget. The Minister achieved funding to be able to provide additional capitation to DEIS urban band 1 schools.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Obviously, the primary teachers - the INTO - asked for €75 rather than €50, which I know somebody raised earlier.
I wish to ask about another school funding matter. Coolmine Community School is a very large community school in Dublin West. I think it was the first community school in the country. It had a leaking roof for a long time. Buckets were placed on floors throughout the school. Students, teachers and parents had to walk around these buckets that were catching the water. The school applied for emergency funding but that was rejected. Does Ms O'Neill think it is acceptable in 2024 or 2025 that people are not able to fix the roofs of their schools?
Ms Joan Murphy:
With emergency funding, schools are open to apply to the Department for any issue where the school might be at risk, due to health and safety, of not being able to open. I am not familiar with that specific school but we can investigate it to see what the situation was. In general, we are spending €60 million on emergency works across the planning and building unit each year for a wide range of health and safety issues such as car parking, playgrounds and roofs in storm situations where we may have to do some remedial works to a building after a storm. I would not be sure of the specific reason Coolmine Community School would be refused but we can look it up and come back to the Deputy directly on that, if that is suitable.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I appreciate that the witnesses may not know every school but it was raised quite a lot by a number of Deputies and Senators, so I thought they might be familiar with the rationale. To turn down a school that is operating in those conditions just seems incredible. I would appreciate a reply back on that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Coppinger. We will get her in again later. I think we will have an additional round. I call Deputy Emer Currie.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I will begin by acknowledging the progress in budget 2026 under the former Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the commitment of €39 million for increased capitation, including €50 per pupil in primary schools, €20 for post-primary schools, the additional supports for urban band 1 DEIS schools, and the alignment of capitation rates for students aged 12 and over in special schools. Why is it that a special school in a DEIS area does not get access to DEIS supports?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Let me let me put it another way. If a special school is colocated on the same campus as a DEIS school, why would the special school not get access to the DEIS programme?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
DEIS status is calculated based on a very particular formula on the concentration of disadvantage. There was a technical group that looked at this very recently, most recently in the 2022-23 school year, when we enhanced the DEIS programme. The manner in which the data was looked at and the manner in which it was applied is quite complex and probably merits a proper technical briefing. I was just thinking of this earlier, a Chathaoirligh, when you were talking about it, that it might be useful to do a full briefing on how this works just so that people are very clear.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That would be helpful, yes.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Are there other special schools in the country that do get access to DEIS?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Special schools have a higher rate of staffing and resources than DEIS schools do. The ratio is much lower. The ratio in a DEIS school is 19:1 in a vertical school and 17:1 in a junior school, whereas in a special school that rate would be much lower. The capitation rate for a child in a special school is higher than in a DEIS school so special schools are already achieving that. What they do not have access to is a home-school liaison and the DEIS grant. I appreciate that.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I than Ms O'Neill for the answer but she has not actually answered my question. Is there a policy not to award DEIS status to special schools?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
No special schools have DEIS status. They would be disadvantaged by having DEIS status is my understanding because the amount of resources that go into a special school is greater than what goes into a DEIS school in terms of staffing and in terms of the capitation rate per pupil.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We might just debate that one as well, because the capitation grant, as I understand it, is based on the number of pupils. Special schools have a lower number of pupils.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but at the same time they are managing a lot more staff and they do not get the recognition of that. Let me just build on that. A special school in Dublin West employs 72 staff members. That includes 13 teachers, two-part time subject teachers, 27 SNAs, 26 part-time bus escorts and four ancillary staff. Those staffing levels are essential and appropriate to the needs of the student cohort, but the school's core funding remains only tied to the number of students enrolled without any recognition of the scale of staffing or the size and complexity of the school premises. Ms O'Neill is saying that they benefit from a higher capitation grant but overall they have lower pupil numbers and they have more responsibilities, more staff and a bigger premises to manage as well. It would be fairer to look at funding from the size of the school in square metres rather than purely the pupils.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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No, I do not have that to hand here.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is not a huge number.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know there is the 60 threshold. Does that apply to special schools?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I think this particular school is around that level anyway.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know there is an improvement.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They are two separate issues. I have two special schools in Dublin West. One is in a DEIS area, the other is not, but both face the same challenges in relation to smaller pupil numbers, the big premises that is required, a large number of staff, yet their capitation is limited to pupil numbers. That is not a fair reflection of the work involved. The other challenge is that their principal allowance is also based on the number of teachers, but not all the rest of the staff.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Reform is needed in this area. The former Minister, Deputy McEntee acknowledged this and said that she wanted to do more in relation to special schools on top of the capitation, that it was on her agenda. I do not want it to slip.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are going to go through a final round. Deputy Ó Súilleabháin has indicated he wants to contribute; he will have time. He will be last and can have the final word. We have a little rule as we go members and then non-members. Deputy Ó Súilleabháin will have three minutes, as will all members. I have given leeway all the way along on time but I will be a little bit more rigid now in this round. Three minutes is three minutes so I ask members to leave enough time for the answers to be given.
Before we get into that round, quite a few of us have been asking about DEIS. I have, and Deputy Currie and other members have. We have a work programme and a schedule of meetings up to Christmas and the new year. However, I have seen recent parliamentary questions from different Members. The DEIS review may come out before Christmas, or is it the new year? I am trying to factor in this technical briefing and the discussion we need to have with the officials about this. Do we need to dovetail this in between now and Christmas or have we enough time to sit down with the Department in new year?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is very good. Senator Joe Conway is next.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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I genuinely would just love Ms O'Neill to take up where she was dealing with some of the items that I raised because in the interim I have gone through the maelstrom. I have lost count but I think there were five Seanad divisions. I hardly know my own name at this stage. I asked Mr. Boland what was the significance of the OGP framework. That was one of the questions, I just did not know and we have no Wi-Fi down here so I could not Google it.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Perfect. I might just tell the Senator about the other OGP frameworks first before letting Mr. Boland in. A number of frameworks are available to schools to procure from, for example, electricity, gas and stationery. They have been pre-approved for use. It means that schools do not have to run significant procurement competitions. It is less of an administrative burden and the prices tend to be better because the State is buying it scale. The Office of Government Procurement has done a lot of the pre-work for schools to allow them to draw down from there. I think Mr. Boland might have been referring to the ICT side specifically.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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Is this widely known among the nearly 4000 schools?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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When did it come in?
Joe Conway (Independent)
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That is okay. Is there a huge take-up of it?
Ms Joan Murphy:
The Senator mentioned minor works before he left the room. At this stage, we have paid €310 million since 2020 for minor works, with €29 million issued in June. We pay it every year in advance of the school year. The €29 million issued this year for primary and special schools for the 2025-26 school year. As Mr. Boland said, there is a commitment from the Government regarding ICT to pay this earlier each year to give a good lead-in time for schools for ICT and minor works. The flat rate at the moment is a €5,500 basic rate. It is €18.50 per mainstream student and €74 per special student. On average, a 100-pupil school is around €7,300.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Murphy. I hate cutting across people but it is so that we finish on time. I call on Deputy Coppinger. She has three minutes.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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When you look at all of these figures, you see some of the problems facing working-class communities and the most disadvantaged schools. One of the things that were mentioned was not having enough computers. I taught in a private school for a few months after I qualified. I had four hours less of teaching than I would have had in a struggling community school. That is four hours more for teachers to spend time preparing their lessons and doing all of the extra work we know makes all the difference. That was in a private school in Donnybrook. It is not now time that the roughly €140 million a year paid to 50 private secondary schools by the State, according to figures in December 2024, ended completely? Why are we paying for people who already massive cultural capital, massive social capital and massive capital in general? The taxpayer pays for the staff and many other things, yet there are schools struggling to keep open because of the huge disadvantages they face and in many older schools, buildings are crumbling. It is a ridiculous situation at this point. Those 50 private secondary schools are going to end up sending practically every student to third level. Many will become barristers or doctors. The chances of a working-class kid getting into medical school must be zilch because what is involved, between the medical exams as well as the leaving certificate, is incredible. It is just obvious it should be stopped. I know it is a political decision; it is not the Department's decision. The witnesses are civil servants. It is supported, however, by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. It seems some of the smaller parties are now willing to stop it. We would have €150 million available to special schools that need the extra help and disadvantaged schools if that money was spent elsewhere.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the Deputy's questions can be answered and some would be for the Minister. It would be policy and politically led, as she identified. We will leave the officials to answer what they can.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
In relation to fee-charging schools, which I assume is what the Deputy meant by private, they generally do not get State grants towards their running costs. There are no recognised fee-charging primary schools but there are recognised fee-charging post-primary schools. The allocation of teachers is outlined in circulars. The allocation ratio is 23:1. The Department pays the salary of one mainstream teacher for every 23 pupils in these schools compared, in the free education scheme, with one teacher for every 19.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, Deputy. Members have to give time as well for the responses.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I did not realise that, sorry.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I want to reinforce the points I made earlier about the DEIS special school in my area. Some of the capitation grants have to cover higher insurance costs, claims for injuries, mandatory specialist training in medical behavioural and educational supports, which has included PPE in the past and I assume still does, maintenance of specialised equipment, staff's work-related medical bills, repair and replacement of sensory and ICT equipment, building modifications and utility costs. A full-time caretaker and cleaners are required as well. It is to bring a sense of the scale for a larger building and a staff leadership team, who do not get access to an AP1 to assist with the likes of the bus escorts or school transport and all of the additional staff and work involved.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
There are currently no special schools in the DEIS programme. We looked particularly at capitation this year in relation to small special schools to make sure there was more equity in the system. That has been done. I will take on board and have a look at the issues the Deputy raised.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The other school we were discussing has 68 pupils. I have just confirmed that. The provision for smaller schools does not apply in this case. It is managing 72 staff members and 68 pupils.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am saying it is inequitable.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I said that at the outset. I acknowledge and appreciate that. I have said that publicly to the Minister but I know there was an intent to keep examining this issue around supports for special schools. There is no allowance for the principals and the AP1 would be a good solution to the DEIS issues and, fundamentally, they could focus on pupils and not on the scale of the school of operation..
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the aggregated data, the Department is to back come back with some information. Will the witnesses give us a sense of what immediately arises from it? Are there particular patterns of spend on headline issues such as energy, heat and insurance? What are the high-level costs? Related to that is the opportunity for cost savings. Is there significant sign-up for the OGP framework? Is there an opportunity for other people to avail of support if they were aware of it or prompted to go for it? It might help them.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
I will ask Ms Kearney to comment because she led the charge in giving information to schools about it and trying to make sure as many as possible signed up. We found information on spend on insurance, electricity and so on. That initial piece prompted us to look at how many were in the frameworks and to encourage more schools to join. We have been engaging with the management bodies in particular. They in turn have been urging schools to sign up.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Was there a pattern of higher spend in those schools that were not in the OGP framework?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Absolutely, to an alarming degree. To be fair, when rates rose steadily, schools that were in the framework were on a steady rate. Schools that were not were subject to market fluctuations.
We were seeing differences of 85% in some cases, which was really significant. Schools in the framework did much better. We certainly encourage as to join as possible to join.
Ms Shirley Kearney:
The latest data that we have for the electricity framework shows that almost 50% of schools are outside the OGP framework. It is estimated that those schools have the potential to save up to 59% on their electricity bills if they were operating from the framework. It is similar to gas. There are estimated savings of up to approximately 15% if a school uses the OGP framework. We encourage as many schools as possible to sign up.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What about insurance? Is it similar?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
There is an OGP insurance framework but the threshold is such that it is not suitable for schools. We are doing a separate project on insurance to understand school insurance practices better and to try to be clear about what is driving costs. At this point, it does not look like schools' increases are very much above normal insurance rates, but we are getting into it.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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One of my local schools is running a "Chaser" event this weekend. There are other fundraising events such as "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" The local school is doing it out of desperation. School representatives were on local radio yesterday promoting the event. They also flagged that they sometimes does not have enough money to pay the most basic bills that come their way. Have things ever got so dramatic that utility providers have threatened to cut off or have actually cut off schools for an unpaid bill? I heard earlier that some schools are in arrears with Irish Water for several years. Has a school ever been cut off or have utility providers ever employed debt collectors? Have schools ever furnished the Department with those pretty stark letters that utility providers send out?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
Schools have contacted us to say that they have concerns about their cash flow and that they do not believe they will meet certain bills or they had plans to come off direct debit and were going to try to negotiate with their providers. We would say to them that, if possible, they should come to us earlier, but, if they come to us at that point, we-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Have there been any cut-offs?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I was never fortunate enough to be a principal, but my heart goes out to them because they are expected to lead so much in the school in each day. On top of that, they are trying to push ticket sales, vouchers and raffles, which takes up a huge amount of time. The Department is a beast with many arms, but ultimately our schools are about educating our young people and maintaining educational standards. I am not faulting teachers or principals, but the inspectorate should be concerned that an excessive time is being tied out in shaking the biscuit tin to fund schools when they should be better funded in the first instance.
Finally, I want to raise the issue of special schools. Increasingly, special schools are offering State examinations, such as the leaving and junior certificates. I know of one school that is rolling out all of these fabulous subjects because the Department is advising it do so, but the resources for woodwork, metalwork and technical graphics are rolled out on a trolley that is brought into the classroom whereas other schools have fully equipped laboratories. They have specialised rooms, but special schools are expected to deliver the same curriculum off a trolley to children who are far more cognitively challenged. That is an insult to them. The fact that special schools are grouped in with primary schools in this current funding model is totally skewed.
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
All around the country principals are doing a fabulous job every day. We, and the FSSU, are here to support them. Any principal or board of management that has any concerns about funding can come to us. Our phonelines and email are always open. They can come to us and we will happily support them and deal with any concerns they may have, as will the FSSU. The Department is running a pilot programme on administration supports for schools. The pilot number is small, but it will give us interesting information about the kind of pressures principals are under and what supports might need to be put in place. I am not familiar with the issue the Chair raised in relation to the senior and junior cycle examinations but I can have a colleague provide me with more information and I will come back to the Chair.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I want to mention three particular schools: the national school in Ballycanew; Our Lady's national school in Rathdrum; and the national school in Coolgreany, which I worked in up to a year before I got elected. Scoil Íosagáin in Coolgreany is a DEIS rural school near the Wexford-Wicklow border. It was built in 1982 and the school authorities were advised to have a flat, tarmac-type roof with triangular features. It was very fancy in the early eighties, but is completely impractical and not functional now. I was contacted about it by the principal yesterday. The school brought it up in 1998 and 2004. The current principal, Lorcan Browne, took over in 2022. When he contacted me yesterday, he told me that he literally spends most mornings going around the classrooms emptying buckets. The caretaker has done everything possible and can do no more. Mr. Browne added that the engineer said that it is no longer safe and is beyond repair. The school authorities spent €1,845 on a leak test. They applied for an emergency works grant and were refused. They also submitted an application for funding under the summer works scheme. It was also refused. The principal told me that his mind is boggled. The school's students receive hot lunches, which I am not knocking, although there are many questions to be asked about it. More is being spent on hot lunches on grants for running all of the other things in schools put together. That is a fact. I taught in primary schools for 34 years and this is a pattern I have seen. I have seen the accounts in schools. The principal said that children are getting hot meals, but they are literally wearing rain coats while eating those lunches indoors. Can people believe that? In 2025, the school cannot get its roof fixed. The principal, who is a brilliant principal in a great school, spends a lot of his time in the morning emptying buckets. He applied for an emergency works grant, as I said, and got refused. What is the logic behind this? Can it be looked at, along with the other schools in Ballycanew and Rathdrum?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
When it comes to emergency works, funding is granted when there is a risk of the school being closed due to safety concerns. I do not know the details relating to that project, but we can look into why it was refused and come back to the Deputy on it. In the context of emergency works, we have received 3,300 applications since 2020, of which 2,100 have been completed. We receive a significant number of applications for funding for emergency works. They are all assessed using the criteria. Regarding the projects mentioned by the Deputy, we will have to look into why they were refused.
We are rolling out a lot of different programmes that will save schools money. For example, we have the solar PV programme and the summer works scheme. I know the Deputy said that the school's application for funding under the summer works scheme was also refused. We had over 1,100 applications for funding under the scheme. The Department announced last week that we are rolling out close to 300 projects through the scheme next year at a cost of €90 million. There are limitations on what projects can progress but we will look into those projects brought up by the Deputy.
Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The principal was devastated that the school was not on that list of projects announced last week. He does not know what to do.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am not a member of the committee, but I want to thank the Chair for giving me three minutes. My first question relates to capitation funding. Given rising energy, insurance and maintenance costs, can the witnesses tell the committee whether the current capitation grant realistically reflects the actual pre-pupil costs of running a school and what increase would be necessary to bring a school to a sustainable, break even position?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I understand that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms O'Neill telling us that is enough for schools to break even?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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On ancillary grant and hidden subsidisation, we are told schools are depending more and more on fundraising and voluntary contributions to meet everyday running costs. What do we know about how widespread this is? What changes to ancillary grants are needed so schools do not rely on parents to fundraise for services?
I ask the witnesses to answer the following question first, in case we run out of time. On equity between schools, what immediate steps is the Department taking to increase capacity at second level for children with autism? How will it ensure every child with autism is offered a suitable school place in their local area in the next school year?
Ms Cliodhna O'Neill:
The question about capacity of schools for children with autism is not within the remit of anybody here but I can get a response and forward it to the Deputy.
The ancillary grant and capitation grant are a common grant from which schools can draw. Schools can use their capitation or ancillary grant payments across their requirements. If they have a need on the ancillary staff side, for example, they can use capitation funding. Likewise, if they have surplus funding from their ancillary, they can use it for capitation requirements.
Ms Shirley Kearney:
The other point is if a school is asking for a voluntary contribution from parents, it should not be compulsory. Parents should be made aware that it is completely at their discretion. The child should not be penalised in any way if the voluntary contribution is not given. We always ask, where parents are being charged and it is compulsory, that the Department be made aware.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much. I am trying to apply the same rule I applied to everyone all day. I thank Deputies Ó Súilleabháin and Aird for joining us.
I thank the witnesses. I respect that some of this falls under the area of policy and ministerial direction. Reflecting on what we have heard in the room today, DEIS is intertwined with this and we have asked the witnesses to furnish us in the coming days with - I wrongly called it an algorithm - whatever document is the guiding light for this. I know it gets adjusted yearly on budget day, but will they circulate what they are able to circulate on that? They have been asked for some other documentation by members. If they can furnish that, I would be very grateful.
We are not supposed to single out officials but I want to commend one, if that is okay with the rest of the officials. Ms Kearney in the past year was excellent. She was dispatched to problem-solve some ridiculously tricky things down home and it was really appreciated.
There can sometimes be curveball questions. That is the nature of committee meetings but we are grateful for all the witnesses are doing in the Department. We would appreciate a technical briefing in due course from Ms O'Neill on DEIS. Our secretariat will engage with her on that. As ever, I thank our secretariat, the technical team and everyone who tuned in this afternoon.