Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected to not abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in members having their online access removed.

At the moment, there is a debate in the Dáil, so a number of our members are in there. We are expecting that they will make their way in later. Tá fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir anseo inniu. Táimid ag plé an Common Agricultural Policy. The committee will hear from several groups. We are joined by Ms Karen Mannion, CEO of FORUM Connemara GLC; Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick, chairperson, and Mr. Philip O'Donnell, research, policy and local affairs officer, of the Local Development Companies Network; Ms Dóirín Graham, chief executive of the Clare Local Development Company; Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly, CEO of North East and West Kerry Development, NEWKD; and Ms Josephine O'Neill, national president, and Ms Elaine Houlihan, ex-president, of Macra na Feirme. Their opening statements have been circulated to members and will be included on the committee's website. Time is short, so I will allow two minutes each for the witnesses to give a brief synopsis of their opening statements. We will then proceed to questions and answers with the members.

I am conscious that a lot of concerns are raised about the structure and shape of the new CAP, LEADER, generational renewal and so many other aspects of it. The committee has been discussing this for several months and we are keen to hear the witnesses' views on it before we prepare our documentation.

We will hear first from Ms Karen Mannion.

Ms Karen Mannion:

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to present FORUM Connemara’s perspective on the proposed post-2027 CAP framework. LEADER, which was launched in 1991 under the CAP, has been a cornerstone of rural development for more than three decades. During this time, it has supported thousands of projects and consistently fostered rural and economic development, social inclusion and innovation. Its scope is wide-ranging, from enterprise development, job creation and training to environmental protection and cultural projects. LEADER is more than a funding stream; it is a philosophy, enabling local people to shape their own future. Its bottom-up approach allows communities to identify their needs, set priorities and design solutions tailored in their unique context. As the committee will recall, local development companies are area-based. This builds confidence, encourages innovation and supports long-term sustainability. Most importantly, it helps us to reach out to those most disadvantaged and to farmers, small businesses, social enterprises and community groups that might otherwise struggle to access critical supports.

The LEADER ethos permeates the work of local development companies. It underpins the likes of the rural social scheme, RSS, and rural recreation initiatives, such as the meals on wheels programme, youth supports and environmental actions. Collectively, we do this in an integrated way with a cradle-to-grave approach. Rural communities face many challenges, particularly in my area of Conamara, such as depopulation, threats to biodiversity, climate change adaptation and digital exclusion. LEADER can and should play a central role in addressing these issues but only if it retains its broad, community-led remit.

Just as the agricultural sector faces significant uncertainty post 2027, so too does LEADER. This uncertainty is deeply worrying for FORUM Connemara, the local development companies and the communities we serve. We have a proven track record of delivering community-led local development and we must remain central delivery partners for future rural development practices.

I have five points I wish to bring to the committee’s attention. The first concerns eligibility. In this round, I am the European LEADER Association for Rural Development, ELARD representative. We are very uncertain about a number of matters. First, it is not clear whether the current regulations include farmers only. If it is only farmers, we are in trouble because 90% of Europe who live in rural areas are from the non-farming community. The second point relates to funding uncertainty. The ask from the network is €425 million. One thing we see as being key is generational renewal and trust in the EU. We can be part of that. We are also advocating for broader funding opportunities.

At the moment, we are still not clear about CAP and, as I said, who is eligible to apply for it. Should it be the case that Ireland looks at other opportunities within this new MFF?

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

As chairperson of the Local Development Companies Network, LDCN, I fully concur with the previous speaker about the importance of LEADER for rural areas. The fact that it is for farmers and non-farmers alike cannot be underestimated. The positive effect it has on people’s attitudes to Europe is vital for Europe. It is from the bottom up. It is for the rural people who may not be able to apply for any other funding under any other situation. That it is the cornerstone of LEADER, and it is the cornerstone of the local development companies as well. Sin é.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The various documents will be published on the website. There will be an opportunity as we go through the meeting to raise other points as well. Leanfaidh muid ar aghaidh le Dóirín Graham.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

I thank the Chair for the invitation to address the committee. In addition to the points that have been made by colleagues, another important point is that the community-led LEADER model has a long, proud tradition of delivering in County Clare for over 35 years. The change to the local authority-led LEADER model is something about which we have great concern. We have maintained our independence as a community-led model over many years, and we intend to continue to do that into the future.

I will pose a few questions to the committee that I believe are important. What is the value of LEADER to rural Ireland today? Should the Government support the resurgence of a community-led LEADER? The local-authority-led model has seen a decline, not only in the budget but also in the effectiveness of LEADER in recent years because of the top-down model that it generally represents. In the next round of LEADER, we hope to see far more community-led LEADER groups all over the country because that model, in terms of its impact and effectiveness, has proven to be more sustainable and valuable in the long term to rural communities.

Ms Mannion referred to the fact that little will be achieved by LEADER being just a grant-administering agency. While grant applications are part of the programme, building rural communities requires a sustained effort over time. It takes trust, skill and relationships. Those things take time and that is what LEADER does; it stays in there for the long haul with rural communities. It was designed and built for that very purpose and it has proven itself in that regard. The diminishing funding over the past two programmes has led under-resourcing, particularly in the context of the current programme. The potential of rural communities is not being met because of the reduced funding. We need to see a return to a higher level of funding and the predominance of a community-led model.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I sincerely thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to present the views of North East and West Kerry Development, NEWKD, as a local development company. As the committee is aware, there are local development companies in every county and village. They impact on every one of them throughout the country. There are two elements that are important in this regard. The first is funding. As is stated in my written submission, the current CAP requires the allocation of at least 5% of rural development funds, as currently outlined in Pillar 2 of the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development, EAFRD, to LEADER. For a long time, we have had concerns about the adequacy of this baseline. What is of greater concern to us now, however, is the fact that the new CAP proposals do not include provision for the mandatory ring-fencing of funds at all. Mr. Paul Savage and other officials from the Department were before this committee. Mr. Savage mentioned ring-fencing. That is important. In partnership with our colleagues in Europe, we are recommending that a compulsory baseline be reinstated such that a minimum contribution to each member state’s CAP objectives be ring-fenced for LEADER. There is also the real option for the Irish Government to increase the rate at which it cofinances rural development, such that a realistic budget can be achieved for the next period.

As Ms Mannion mentioned, the scope of the programme needs to be maintained. It has always existed to support the development of rural communities. It supports farmers, but it also supports all of the people, groups, businesses and organisations that make up our communities. We are very concerned about the potential for a significant narrowing of the scope of LEADER, which seems to be envisaged by the draft CAP proposal and draft proposal for the fund. The proposal, specifically Article 18.4, refers to LEADER focusing on projects with added value for farmers and forestry holders, while the definition of a “beneficiary” under the CAP is very explicitly limited to those engaged in agricultural activity. If LEADER is to be funded by the CAP alone, as it has been in the past, then it is possible that only farmers will constitute eligible beneficiaries. This would make LEADER a different programme to the one we all know today. Rural communities face challenges beyond farm income such as depopulation, climate adaptation and digital exclusion. The CAP must remain a tool not only for agricultural sustainability but also for social and economic sustainability in rural Ireland.

I will briefly touch on a summary of our recommendations. We must maintain and expand LEADER funding and simplify it in line with Europe. That must be done in co-operation with the practitioners on the ground. Some of our people were in Europe this week with officials from the Department. As Ms Graham said, community engagement is vital.

The ask, as Ms Mannion said earlier, is to reinstate the programme to what it was between 2007-2013 at €425 million.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

If I could make two quick observations to add to what my colleagues have said already, to take the proposals in the round, the decrease and the ring-fencing of funding from CAP might have created the impression that local development companies and those involved in LEADER are somehow pitted against the farming community. That is not the case, and it is important for us to say. It is certainly something that we would like to emphasise coming in here today. We are here representing rural communities, and are approaching this from the point of view of rural development in a very holistic sense.

The second thing is that two themes of the overarching thrust of the multi-annual financial framework are competitiveness and security. The idea that it is competitiveness and security against everything else is also something of a misplaced point of view. We would see LEADER and rural development more broadly, as being very complementary and mutually supportive of those two themes.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I begin by welcoming the opportunity to address the committee today. The Common Agricultural Policy has long been a crucial support for young farmers. In a time when huge questions surround the certainty of young farmers' futures and the viability of their farm businesses, the future CAP will be more important than ever. CAP post-2027 is needed to provide direct financial support to young farmers to ensure their farm incomes are viable. It is needed to help young farmers begin their farming careers and establish their holdings. It is needed to promote generational renewal by supporting new entrants and young farmers. Unfortunately, CAP post-2027 has completely changed from the structure we all know, with the budget eroded and the implementation uncertain. We, as young farmers, have significant concerns surrounding this new CAP, and how it can adequately support the future of young farmers. The reduced budget comes at a time when a greater budget was needed now more than ever.

Our sector is facing a generational renewal crisis. The challenges of farming grow, all while costs of production spiral, thanks to inflation. Meanwhile, the margin earned shrinks. The shrinking CAP budget post-2027 threatens to undermine the future of the Irish agricultural sector and, ultimately, the future of towns and villages which rely on it so heavily. Although the announcement of CAP post-2027 appeared to commit to generational renewal as a key programme focus, and while it does promise such through the inclusion of young farmers’ starter pack, initially announced by Commissioner Hansen, there is a complete omission of ring-fenced funding for young farmers.

Currently in Ireland, just 3% of direct payments are specifically directed towards young farmers; significantly less than most other European countries and considerably lower than the recommendation from the commission on generational renewal. We, as an organisation, are extremely disappointed that these proposals do not set a minimum percentage of ring-fenced funding for young farmers. Our Government has consistently failed to commit to the future of young farmers, and without this explicitly stated, we have little faith that the recommendation of at least 8% of the CAP budget designated to young farmers will be enacted. Our Government will once again fail to financially support our futures.

One of the biggest concerns of the agricultural sector currently is the lack of young farmers entering the sector, with just 4.3% of farmers under the age of 35. Despite lobbying on this topic for decades, it is only now that we have hit crisis point that the issue is gaining political traction. Of course, one of the only actions to date has been the formation of a commission on generational renewal but this, once again, is a case of too little too late. The report from the commission was due for publication at the start of the summer but was only released in September.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms O'Neill.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I will finish now, apologies. None of the recommendations received any funding from the national Exchequer, and we hope that in the upcoming CAP proposals, young farmers will be remembered and the recommendations from this report will be considered.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Houlihan wish to speak?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

We did the two.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Cooney okay to start or does he want to leave it until he comes back?

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will leave it until I come back.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Daly.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is a process of elimination.

I will be brief. I am not going to hog the seven minutes I have. Our witnesses were cut short so I will afford them the opportunity to say what they were going to say next. From the LEADER perspective and the development companies, I would like to know where our witnesses think this is at in Europe. They have people out there close to what is happening. We all know it is down to the multi-annual financial framework. There are proposals. The Minister said it is a good place to start from. I do not know if we have moved from the starting blocks year.

A one pillar CAP from our witnesses' perspective, and from Macra na Feirme's perspective, would be a pure disaster. I refer to the great work they are doing and the initiative and entrepreneurship of young farmers. I would be at home farming but for the fact there was no possibility of two incomes at the time, and I had younger brothers and sisters who needed to be educated. In fairness, that call was made. I was supposed to go back when they were gone but I got the smell of a pound and a pint and a few other things, and I never made that transition back. It is not always possible to survive on the land alone but there are many young people out there in the agriculture sector who have great ideas for agri-businesses and agri-enterprises that they would run in conjunction with the farm and on the farm. LEADER plays such a big role in the establishment of that side of the enterprise. It would be a disaster if it does not continue as it is.

I will leave it at that and let our witnesses carry on with what they wanted to say when they were cut short. Our witnesses have more people in Europe with their ears to the ground than we possibly have. Where do they think it actually is at the moment? What do they think we can do for them to progress it to where they would like to see it?

Ms Karen Mannion:

I will take that one because I am the ELARD representative. I am very new to it so I am learning as well. ELARD is an entity in itself. It is a network. Every country has a representative and they do fantastic work. They have a budget, and they have been looking at this in terms of the legalities of the regulations. We have a submission document that we have sent in.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We got that.

Ms Karen Mannion:

That is the ELARD and it tries to break it down into the sections, stating what the regulation is and what we suggest and giving our explanation of why we think it is the case. It comes back to the five points I mentioned. Is it farmers and foresters only who are eligible under this CAP? I refer to the scope in terms of co-funding. We have an ask €425 million to, as I say, bring it back to the levels it was at between 2007 and 2013, when taking account that building inflation is something like 26% since 2014.

With generational renewal, and I refer to our colleagues in Macra na Feirme, we will not have young people remain in Europe unless we provide services for them. That is contained in that submission from ELARD as well. As Mr. O'Reilly mentioned, last week a colleague in the network, Declan Rice, somebody from the Department of Rural and Community Development, and I attended a simplified cost-options workshop in Europe. Quite frankly, Ireland and the Department were called out in terms of why we were not using simplified cost options. That basically simplifies the administration burden. Anybody who has been involved in LEADER will know it is synonymous with a lot of verification.

My last point is point number five about the broader funding opportunities. As my colleagues said, we do not want to be in a position where it is a them and us situation - rural development versus agriculture and the farmers. That is not the case. We are them; they are us. Our colleagues in Macra na Feirme have echoed that as well. We need to be in a position that there is more money, and if it is a case that we cannot get it from CAP, are there other opportunities for it?

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I acknowledge the comments on the importance of rural diversification. It is vital to support young farmers and their incomes in rural Ireland. I apologise that with the shortened time I did not get to address LEADER. The exclusion of LEADER from ring-fenced funding is another significant blow for young people in rural Ireland, not just for our young farmers, who may rely on LEADER funding as a significant support for rural diversification, but for young people in rural Ireland to ensure that our rural communities can remain attractive, vibrant and socially sustainable environments, which will attract young people back to rural Ireland and also support the right to stay.

As an organisation, we fight for generational renewal. It is not just about supporting young farmers to enter farming and ensure farming is a vibrant and attractive sector for young farmers; we also need to ensure our rural communities are attractive for young people to come back to as well, so we have rural schools, we have our GAA teams and that our rural communities will remain sustainable. That is partly due to LEADER funding. We encourage LEADER funding to continue to be supported as part of the CAP.

Mr. Philip O'Donnell:

I thank the Senator for his question. He is correct in saying when we think of the retention of Pillar 1 we also have to think about what is being lost in Pillar 2, which is commonly known as the rural development pillar. That rural development component of the CAP is in some sense being cut adrift and there is a genuine risk of that losing impetus and losing visibility within this much broader national and regional partnership plan. There are some components of the architecture of the MFF that might contribute to or exacerbate that problem. I mentioned competitiveness earlier and with that at the forefront of this it might drive investment to urban areas and away from rural ones. In addition, with the performance framework and the increased focus there is going to be on performance-based targets and payments, concentrating investment in urban areas will be in one sense a shortcut to achieving those targets given the greater population density of urban areas and the greater ease of reaching larger numbers of people in urban areas.

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for joining us. We are discussing an incredibly important topic. I come from rural County Cork so the IRD Duhallow is my closest local development company and I am well aware of the wonderful work these companies do. The comments some of the witnesses have made are interesting on the change from more community-led initiatives, when it comes to LDCs, to local authority-led initiatives and the impact that has had. I would like them to provide a bit more clarification on that.

I might carry on and give the rest of my time to the witnesses. I thank Ms O'Neill and Ms Houlihan for being with us. I have been a member of Macra since I was about 17. I am still within the qualifying remit to be a member and I still am. I congratulate Ms O'Neill on her presidency so far. She is certainly one to watch and that was a very impressive presentation. I commend Macra in general on the role it is playing to provide a strong voice for young farmers. It is something that Macra has done for many years but it is especially important when you see the average of a farmer in Ireland is 59, versus 58 across the European Union. The percentage of farmers under 35, which was at 6% four of five years ago, is 4.3%.

I would like the witnesses' opinion on the report of the commission on generational renewal that was published here in comparison with the generational renewal report published more recently by the European Commission. Having looked at both of them there are some great ideas in there but our one was caveated by the fact funding had to come from the CAP. That does not appear to be imminent and that is ignoring the reduction of the €86 billion. That is a different topic but, more generally, how do the witnesses see that going and what measures do they think we need to put in place? Food security and food production are a massive problem going forward. It is going to be a massive when it is so difficult to get young people into agriculture. There the obvious issues like lack of access to land, lack of access to training and lack of access to labour but there is also a different job market in the country to the one people would have seen 15, 20 and 30 years ago. There are now easier alternatives, namely, nine to five jobs with the same money for a lot less hardship. Let us face it that if you are involved in a farming enterprise - I am from a beef and dairy farm - it is a vocation. If you are a dairy farmer, for instance, it is about the consistency. You have to be there morning and evening. The cows do not mind. You have to be there. That is the end of the story.

Then there is succession and land planning. I am no way suggesting anything as radical as this but previously an older person handing on a farm would have to do so before they were entitled to their pension. Are there other measures the witnesses feel the Government, policymakers, the European Commission report or the Irish report are missing that could encourage more people into farming and to retain those who are interested and want to make a livelihood out of it?

Ms Dóirín Graham:

On the local authority and community-led model, as an organisation that has retained its independence from the local authority over the years, our view and I think generally the view across Europe and in Brussels is LEADER has been weakened not just in Ireland but across Europe, where it is run, essentially, by local authorities. We have seen some ground recovered in this current programme where there are a number of groups that have recovered their independence, including IRD Duhallow, but which have lost territory. There are things that are far from perfect and these have undermined and seen a decline in the programme. The key reason for that is the decision-making in a local authority-led LEADER group is centred in the local authority. Those decisions about how the LEADER funding is used, how we prioritise the resources and what approach we take to rural development are no longer with the community-led local development company but with the local authority. That separation has undermined the programme. It is something I feel we can and should go back to. We had the most vibrant, most successful LEADER programme when all those groups were community-led and run from the ground up. They were genuine bottom-up organisations. I hope we will get back to that. For the benefit of the rural communities we can work in partnership with local authorities. In Clare we have had a few years where it has not been so good but we are back in a very good relationship with our local authority where it wants to work in partnership with us and its skills and strengths and ours complement each other and where the authority is telling us it wants to work with us to identify and support rural communities that are weaker and need the ground-level work LEADER delivers, which nobody else does. The authority wants to work with us because it sees the value of that. It is not about one or the other but about working in partnership while being led by the bottom-up organisations. In the long term the rural communities of Ireland would greatly benefit from that over a statutory local authority-led model.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I thank Senator Lynch for the question. Irish farmers, especially young farmers, are well placed to continue to produce high-quality food, as we have done for decades, but there are key issues, which the Senator has highlighted, including generational renewal. She pointed to the reports on generational renewal in Ireland and Europe. We were delighted to see them finally published but it took so long none of the recommendations was given any consideration in budget 2026, which we were very disappointed to see. All of our engagement seems to be that any of those recommendations, should they be considered, will be under CAP 2028-2034 but we believe that is too little, too late. We are looking at a sector where the number of young farmers is significantly declining, with only 4.3% of farmers being aged under 35. That is not going to change unless our Government commits to the future of young farmers. We were delighted to see some of the measures like the young farmers establishment fund, the generational renewal fund and some others Ms Houlihan will elaborate on. We need to see commitment and action. Some of that needs to be now and not wait until CAP. We ask the likes of a ring-fenced fund for young farmers be implemented in the next CAP and that some of the measures from the commission and the recommendations it outlined be contributed towards.

On the attractiveness of agriculture versus other jobs, we as a sector need to work together to ensure young people recognise farming can be an extremely attractive way of life and that there are measures there that need to be worked on, such as simplification. No young farmer should be sitting at home doing paperwork all night every night. There are things we can do to support the attractiveness of becoming a young farmer.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I concur with Ms Graham on the community-led local development companies.

There were four in the previous programme, there are ten now, and I think we can continue that move. It has caused angst on the ground for communities because budgets and territories have changed.

LEADER plays a big part in generational renewal as well. The Minister was outside Listowel recently at a place called Six Crosses. It launched Bainne Blasta, which was a small farmer or young farmer with a self-service vending machine for milk and flavoured milks. This is in a very rural area. That is helping the family retain income on the land, on the farm, but also diversifying and that is exactly what LEADER does. I am sure there are stories all around the country with that. It goes back to what Ms O’Neill said earlier too. It all plays together. It is not one or the other – we are all in this together.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome everyone here from Macra, the Clare Local Development Company, FORUM Connemara, North, East and West Kerry Development and the Local Development Companies Network. We have seen their papers and have read them in detail. If anyone thinks they were cut short, we have them in front of us and we have had them for the past day or two. I thank them for submitting them as they are very helpful and they feed in to our debate.

Given the time, like my colleague Senator Lynch, I will focus in on Macra. I welcome Ms O’Neill. I say genuinely she is one to watch. She is highly articulate. I read about her in the media. I hear about her on “Ear to the Ground”. I think it is only two weeks ago that she gave an interview on the programme. Ms Houlihan is also an example of a young, highly articulate farmers who live in rural communities who are advocates for those communities. Agriculture is in a good place in Ireland in their hands. I do not say that in a patronising way. Ms Houlihan and I have boxed from time to time on issues but what I like about it is it is straight up. I mean that genuinely.

I want to touch on some of the issues in their submission first. It states: “To continue to attract young people back to rural Ireland, we need to ensure that vibrant and socially sustainable local communities are protected and encouraged”. That is what we all believe. Ms Graham spoke of the importance of community-led LEADER programmes – that is very simple – as well as subsidiarity, that is, making decisions on the ground, communities making decisions on the ground, being informed, being valued stakeholders. They are part of it. They have skin in the game. That is a great expression because when you have skin in the game you have an interest in the game. Keep it simple. We talk about simplification of the EU and farming and everything. Keep it simple - keep it country as far as I am concerned.

I will touch on some issues I think are important. Of course income for young farmers is a reoccurring theme. They have constantly talked of the challenges around planning. Rural housing is a significant part of all this because it is about sustainable communities. Without agriculture, we do not have farming and we do not have food. Without communities, particularly rural communities, we do not have agriculture or people and people are also critical in all this. They are all intertwined. There has to be a holistic approach. That is the reoccurring theme that comes through everyone’s submissions and I acknowledge and thank them for that. Then there is inheritance and tax liabilities when it comes to ceding land to a minor or young person and some people who do not have children might have the nephew or niece thing. There are a whole lot of challenges around taxation that are unfair and need to be addressed in a more holistic way. There is also the transport issue. The witnesses made the point there seems to be a variance between EU proposals and Government proposals. Ms O’Neill touched on funding. On generational renewal, we talk about the introduction of the young farmers establishment payment or scheme. On generational renewal they will be familiar with the aspiration that all future CAP schemes should be young-farmer and new-entrant proofed. New-entrant proofing is critically important. We are not only talking about young farmers but also new entrants. People can come into agriculture at any time – let us not forget that. We want to encourage new experiences too.

In the time we have I would ask Macra to touch on that in the few minutes we have. If we have more time I will go to the others. I was also disappointed about budget 2026. Two years is a long time for a lot of people who are making decisions about their future. I spoke to a son of a farmer yesterday who was heading to Australia. He is not hanging around – two years is too long. When you are 21 years old, two years sounds like a life sentence. Will the Macra representatives comment on those points and where they see the priorities for themselves?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

I thank the Senator. I will come in first for our boxing match and then hand over to Ms O'Neill. The Senator was disappointed with the budget. Our disappointment with the budget for probably the last 40 years is worth noting too. The young farmer is constantly forgotten. I campaigned for two years and am handing over to Ms O’Neill. The light is fairly dimming in the future of young farmers in Ireland, unfortunately. I have spoken to more people who are leaving the country. One of my best friends is over in New Zealand and has no intention of coming home to farm. He told his father to put the farm up for sale because he has better opportunity in New Zealand. That should not be happening in this country. We have a unique system that needs to be protected. It is something we need to be very proud of.

I am also the chair of the land mobility service that we offer in Macra. This goes back to Senator Lynch’s point. We have young people who are crying out to farm. We have older people who are willing to hand over the farm on a leased basis. That is what the land mobility service does but that service is looking at closing its doors because the Department decided to pull €100,000 of funding. €100,000 is nothing in funding. Once that service is gone, we hope an European innovation partnership scheme, EIPs, might carry it on because EIPs are there as a sort of pop-up shop, as they might say in Kildare Village. We need that funding back to keep young people farming and getting them the opportunities.

Succession is the buzz word. Everyone loves using it but then succession is followed by retirement scheme. When you think of a retirement scheme, that takes money out of a sector while succession gives a glimmer of hope. We need to get on the succession bus now. We probably needed to get on it 40 years ago but we need action now. Two year’s time will be too late. We have gone to the Department with a succession scheme. We gave it a full succession scheme and it was thrown back in our faces. It told us to come back with a pilot. We gave it to the Department again. It told us that was no good. We gave it the skeletons of it and told it to flesh out the bones but it would not fulfil that. This is a drum we are constantly banging and it is a drum that Ms O’Neill is taking over now.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I will come in on some of the other issues the Senator mentioned. On income for young farmers, at the moment we see inflation everywhere and the prices of our food is increasing. The founding principle of CAP was to ensure cheaper prices but that should not come at the cost of the producer. We hope the next CAP can ensure the income for young farmers is support to ensure they have a viable farming business.

Rural housing and transport are key issues we have highlighted in our pre-budget submission for the last two budgets at least and every year we are disappointed. On tax liability and young-farmer and new entrant proofed schemes which the Senator mentioned, these are highlighted in the commission on generational renewal recommendations. We will ask that they be considered as viable options to ensure young farmers have a future in Ireland and in Irish farming.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Ms O'Neill

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I will defer to Deputy Fitzmaurice for the moment.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The witnesses are very welcome. This is like talking about something without knowing what is going to happen to be frank, because it is all going to be decided in Europe. There is 24% of a shortfall, which is scandalous.

We have to acknowledge the work done by LEADER right around the country in local, small communities everywhere. I want to remember Tomás Beades who does a lot with me. Considering the work put in by LEADER in every county, it would be shambolic if those were not included in a budget and, to call a spade a spade, at the moment it is not there. It might be for us to do up a report, if the Chair and committee agree, which we can send to our Minister, our MEPs and the Commissioner in Europe. They are more interested in guns and bombs than they are in food security and helping local communities. That is the bottom line.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I second the proposal.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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He is supporting the proposal. I thank Senator Daly. We will be pushing in every way we can.

That is being honest with the witnesses. There is no point in our making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. We will not do that because we would be only codding them, to be quite frank about it.

We will keep at it. We are meeting the different groups to hear their thoughts. If there is a shortfall, I think the national Parliament will have to take up the shortfall. Those are the simple facts. Whether we like it or not, we must decide whether we want good-quality food and farmers or whether we want to get angel dust food in from Brazil and other places like that. That is the bottom line. That is all I will deal with on the LEADER side of it.

In the line of Macra, first, I congratulate Ms O'Neill on her new presidency. I refer to land mobility. To look at the CAP budget, at the moment there is not what there used to be for a young farmer, not to mind talking about more. Second, Macra has sent proposals forward. There was a lot of talk before the election of different ways of trying to make land more accessible, but there is a problem, and Ms Houlihan touched on it there. I do not all-out agree with what she said. There is a problem in that there are a lot of youngsters going to Australia. They go to the mines, work 17 or 18 hours a day or 14-hour days every week, even the week they are to be off, and they get a good ball of money. Some of them, actually, will say they do not want the land. How will we solve that?

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any takers?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

We can come in first if-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

Coming back to solving the problem with the land, with my hat on I come back to the land mobility service. For instance, say we have a farm at home and I do not want it. Obviously I do, just to clarify that. I can go to the land mobility service and get into that and there is a lease whereby the transfer of entry goes over to that young farmer. It has to be a young trained farmer, so-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Ms Houlihan not agree that there is a problem? We have to try to face this and make it more attractive for the simple reason that a lot of people nowadays want to work Monday to Friday, from nine to five. They do not want to be pulling a calf on a Saturday or a Sunday night. Look at the figures today. Look at our national herd today. It is down another 120,000. We are down 250,000 in sucklers over the past few years. I know the weanling trade is good this year, thank God, but that is a lot of people saying to themselves that what comes out of it is not rewarding. A lot of people are picking a different type of lifestyle. We have to try to encourage young people into farming to make it attractive. It is difficult as well to get cover if you want to go away for a weekend or whatever. How do we solve all those little bits?

Once upon a time, everyone, including me when I was a young buck, was lowing to get the land, but they were trying to hold on to it too long. Now, when they are nearly going to let it come to us, a lot of them are saying - we have to be honest about it - that with rules and regulations, first of all out of Europe, it is nearly more about the paperwork now than it is about the farming, to be quite frank about it. One wrong thing and the grant is gone and you are penalised.

As regards the young farmer scheme, and we know all of this, it is the highest in the Department. In this country, 1% of all farmers is all that is inspected but, under the young farmers scheme, it is 15%. Why? It is because there were a lot of problems found. Then it is a double bubble penalty, which I find very unfair on a young farmer. For the 50 ha, if you get €8,000, it is a penalty of €8,000 on top of it, and by Jesus that is harsh on any young farmer starting out.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I will come in on the attractiveness. First, a lot of our young farmers do not know if they have a future around their family farm because that conversation about succession has not started. As an organisation, we are lobbying and reminding people to start that conversation at the farm table and give young people a little certainty.

Speaking of certainty, that is another issue for young farmers, and that goes beyond the CAP. If you think of everything happening in the agricultural world at the moment in terms of derogation, Mercosur, all the changing grants, like the Deputy said, and the future of the CAP, a young farmer does not know what is coming down the line. How are they expected to enter a sector when they do not know what will happen, they do not know if their future will be economical viable and they cannot make a business plan because things are changing like day to night? The national Government needs people to support our young farmers and lobby for them, provide certainty for them and provide a future for them.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In fairness to the national Government, it is badly in control of the derogation because it will be decided in Europe, CAP will be decided in Europe, and none of us as public representatives know about the new regulations. The regulations are coming down the line constantly. We get so many COMs here, and they are more about different environmental stuff now. That is a worry. From a distance, there is a lot of regulation that we do not know about that is crippling farmers. Do the witnesses have a solution that would get people into farmers?

The other side of it is that people want a life as well. Once upon a time, the local doctor did a hundred hours a week. You could throw a stone up at the window at night and they would come out and go to the house, whereas nowadays they want hours and time off. Farmers will try to have that too. How do we get the people to try to keep it going when they are gone away?

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will take a very quick answer because I need to move on to Deputy Aird.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I thank the Deputy for the proposal, and the Senator for backing it, that national Government potentially take up the shortfall. That has been done in the past. There is, as we mentioned earlier, a co-financing rate as well that is across the CAP. Potentially, that can be done at programme level. In addition, in the noughties, when there were LEADER cuts, a national rural development programme was brought in, so the precedent is there.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Aird.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the two representatives from Macra. I started off my debating days in Macra, but that is neither here nor there. I have just two questions. First, how does Macra believe the next CAP should specifically support young farmers in accessing land, credit and viable incomes given the current barriers to generational renewal? Second, what reforms are needed in on-farm inspections, ACRES, scheme designs and administrative load to ensure young farmers are not disproportionately disadvantaged under the CAP 2027? I ask for a brief comment.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

To touch on some of the Deputy's points about access to land and finance, they are some of the greatest challenges facing young farmers. It is a matter of looking at the supports that are outlined in the report from the Commission on Generational Renewal and the generational renewal strategy from Europe. One of those - Ms Houlihan has already mentioned it - is the land mobility service to give access to young farmers who do not have land of their own so that they can have a viable farming enterprise of their own.

The Deputy mentioned ACRES and schemes. It is a matter of ensuring they are properly funded, not just for the administration side but also for the supports young farmers receive for the actions they are doing on the ground. They cannot be penalised for different actions that may reduce their land yield and the viability of their farms. They need to be adequately supported for any environmental supports they are putting in place.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses agree that it is difficult for young farmers to make a decision to go into farming if they cannot get land under the land mobility? There are people working on farms, great chaps, men and women - I have seen them down through the years - who had no land but made great farmers afterwards.

It is said the price of milk will be 30 cent or 35 cent next year. If someone goes into the bank manager for a loan, what is he going to say? There is no continuity in the prices. That is the first thing. The second is that for those interested in grain, prices are on the floor. That is nearly gone. Those in beef can see what is happening with Mercosur at the moment. Just when things were good in this country, now we have all the pushback against it. We pride ourselves on producing the best of everything. I produce the best milk I can produce. Then what happens? We see the level playing pitch and what is happening in Brazil and so on. People from this country had to show exactly what was happening and show me and everybody else that they cannot access the drugs. They have gone off the market here, and that is grand. As regards the drugs they were showing, even with a vet's prescription, they cannot get them to treat cattle here.

There is no sense or meaning to it. It is very difficult for young farmers to stand back and look at that happening and then try to have the will to work. I attended Carlow mart on Monday. There were no young people in Carlow mart on Monday. There was no person, I would say, under the age of 35 in it. This is what is happening on the ground - go out and see it. We need to encourage these people. When I was that age, the mart would be full.

The next question I want to ask is to Ms Graham. From her experience in the administration of rural and LEADER supports, what changes to CAP would most effectively strengthen rural community development and keep the services viable in counties?

Ms Dóirín Graham:

The funding is crucial. The programme as it is constituted is a programme that we can deliver. The administration and bureaucracy around LEADER have increased. A simplified cost option would help to reduce that on the administration side. The focus needs to remain on LEADER having boots on the ground. We need to keep the balance in LEADER between putting people on the ground to make things happen and then having the funding to fund those projects that come out of the enterprise, the on-farm projects and the community projects. Brussels developed the whole LEADER idea back in the early 1990s and it still works. That is the great thing. It can work into the future. It has proven itself once it is community led. I know that is not a Brussels decision. That is a national decision as to whether we have a community-led or a local authority-led LEADER model in Ireland.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have a question for Ms Mannion. What are the key CAP reforms needed to ensure the long-term viability of farming in the west, where land type and geography limit farm incomes? This year alone, I can see a huge decrease in the amount of weanlings coming out of the west. Over 220,000 suckler cows are gone. What is the viability down there? What is going to happen?

Ms Karen Mannion:

I suppose it is back to the intergenerational piece. We have farmers getting older and we do not have the young people coming in. In my situation, I have two young lads and one of them is in Ballyhaise Agricultural College. The facility there is fantastic, including the way it is promoted and the way it is cost effective for us as a family. I cannot say enough about it. It should be encouraged and promoted more within our educational system to show that working in agriculture can be viable.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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But will they make money they come home?

Ms Karen Mannion:

Now, this is another thing.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Ms Karen Mannion:

Take my own example. When this particular lad comes back, he will never ever be able to just be a farmer. He will always have to have a part-time income,-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That answers my question. That is grand.

Ms Karen Mannion:

-----but that is okay. We can make it work if they are encouraged to do so, but I take the point that many people have said here, in that there has to be some type of work-life balance, there have to be farm relief services, and there has to be that encouragement. It goes back to the national Government. We spoke earlier about ELARD, Europe, the MFF and so on, but it still comes back to our Irish Government to decide on the national regional plans. We can design it, so I suppose there is a bit of flexibility. I understand that we are net contributors now and that we have a bit more flexibility in that.

I do not want to leave on this as being a negative. I know these are very difficult and challenging at times but let us have a bit of positivity here and look at this in a different light. Maybe there are some opportunities here. Young people are not going to put up with us moaning and groaning. We have to be able to-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but this is not about moaning or groaning. I am a farmer. I do not moan and groan but what I want is a fair price for what I produce. That is all I want. There fewer weanlings and sucklers because people did not pay the farmer what he or she was looking for them. If you were a suckler farmer, you would know that. Farmers would be getting €500, €600 or €700 for the best of the weanlings but it was costing farmers €500 to keep the cow, so they were getting nothing for the animals they were selling. That is the reality of it. There is nobody moaning and groaning. Imagine if you were told that in the public sector. We would see the moaning and groaning pretty quickly.

Ms Karen Mannion:

Just to say, I am not in the public sector.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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In all fairness, when we see what is happening and when we see the price of milk now dropping down again, it is very hard for any young person to try to go out there and budget for what is going to happen from one year to the next. It just drops dramatically in a couple of months. At least years ago, there would be talk about it for three years before it would go down but now it can go down fast. At a Tirlán meeting one night, it talked about the matter. The very next morning, it lowered the price of milk by five cent. It never even said that the night of the meeting. This is what we are up against now.

All I am trying to do is encourage young farmers and support Macra in getting people in. In Ireland, 4.3% of the farming population is under 35 now. In Europe, it is 12% and people there are talking about it. The committee has heard me saying that Europe is going to grow that to 30%. People in Brussels are telling us we are going to grow the number of young people in farming from 4% to 15%, but they know that cannot happen. Then we have Mercosur and the derogation.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Aird.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am backing Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice in this. Every single day, you get something in the post again about more regulations.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Deputy Aird. I need to move on to Deputy Kenny.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is scandalous.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for their opening statements. I read them earlier. I will come to the issue of LEADER first of all. I remember many years ago when the amalgamations happened and there were all these changes. I was on the county council at the time and a number of councillors were saying quietly how it was a sight that that crowd had all the money and the council had no access to or control over it, they were asking who was deciding this and that, and they were saying it was time that members of the local authority should have control over it. That was the attitude that created what I consider to be a rot that destroyed what was genuinely community-based assistance for communities. That needs to be spelled out and reversed. I know there are some efforts to do that.

Over the years since, I have seen that one of the problems is that much of the money that should be going to community projects was actually going to stuff the council should be getting money directly from the Government to do, and had been getting in the past. Whether it was fixing bridges or doing this, that or the other, that is where it ended up going. It should not have happened because it starved genuine rural areas.

I come from a rural area in County Leitrim where my home parish has fewer than 19 people per square kilometre. When we look at the Central Statistics Office figures around the country, that is considered terminal decline. Those numbers are out there for anyone to see anywhere in the country. You can go into any region and you can look at how many people are there per square kilometre. If the area is below 30 to 35 people, you are banjaxed. The school is surely going to close and the football teams are going to have to amalgamate between the local parishes. That is decline. The only way we can arrest that decline and change that around is to create more activity. We create that activity by creating opportunity. This is where LEADER came in. If somebody had a seed of an idea or a little community project that they wanted to get going, they went to LEADER and they got the assistance for it. LEADER still does some of that work, but with much more difficulty than in the past. This is one of the key things that has to change.

Planning permission was mentioned. Planning permission is a serious problem in rural areas where we cannot build houses for local families to come back and live in their own areas. When it comes to generational renewal on the farm, it is the same thing. If the person cannot build a house on the farm, it causes that problem.

On the points that were made earlier, I agree with Deputy Fitzmaurice in regard to young people. We are in an economy where we are competing with the pharma industry and with big tech. The farming sector is competing with all of that for young people to go back to a farm to have a part-time job for the love of the job rather than for the financial gain they are going to get from it. These are the options that people have.

The CAP proposals are a step backwards - not just the cut to it, but also the removal of the two pillars. This is a huge problem. It is going to put us in a place where genuine community development is starved even more than it was.

I would like to get the witnesses' views. What is the best outcome that can come from what is being proposed? What are the big changes that we could try to initiate or get conversations going on that could make a difference? I know it is like turning an ocean liner. We cannot turn the wagon around very quickly but can we make some proposals that would improve things, first of all in respect of the funding for genuine community projects and for LEADER, and secondly in regard to succession, or whatever we want to call it, where we can get young people to see a future? It is right to say that retirement is what they talk about, but it is not about retirement and it is not about giving a package to somebody to go away. It is about giving something to ensure that somebody wants to go to the farm and wants to be on the farm. What can we do in respect of that? I open this to whomever wants to reply on those two points.

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

I am the chair of the Local Development Companies Network. I am also the chair of the South West Mayo Development Company. Since the control of LEADER has gone to the local community development committees, LCDCs, and local action group, LAG, it has been downhill all the way. We tried our best to get it back in south Mayo. We were not successful, but we will try again. That is a big thing because the local development companies are about the bottom up. They are there to help to map small products. If someone has idea and goes into the development companies, they get it and they will have a look at it. They will hold the application form in their hands and get it through. That is a major point. Once the budget is secured, that is the next thing I see for the local development companies and LEADER. That is what LEADER was all about.

I am a farmer and I have farmed for the past 40 years. I am here on a voluntary basis. All the boards of local development companies are on a voluntary basis. They take in all members from trade unions. Every local community gets an opportunity to be on the board. They are there on a voluntary basis. We cannot expect them to keep putting in those hours, see the basics and not be given the tools to do the job.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

Deputy Kenny mentioned succession and what we would like to see. We have been lobbying for the delivery of a succession scheme for decades, not a retirement scheme but something that supports both the younger farmer and the older farmer. The likes of the recommendations, such as the young farmer establishment fund and the generational renewal fund, are welcome to incentivise the transition from the older farmer to the younger farmer and to encourage that succession.

We would also welcome changing the narrative. The Deputy mentioned competing with the likes of the pharma industry and the long hours. We need to flip that and tell farmers they can set their own hours. They can have a passion and drive. Our young farmers are passionate. They are well trained. They want to farm. They want to farm for a reason because farming is a vocation. It is a way of life. That is what we need to highlight. We do not need to highlight the tough parts of the job because every job has hard things.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr O'Donnell to come in on that.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

We have outlined some key priorities in the documents we submitted, but I will pull it back to the very foundations. There are three core concerns we had at the start. First was the question of whether LEADER would be mandatory. If you read the MFF proposals in close detail, that is not all together clear. We have had assurances via the directorate-general for agriculture and rural development, DG AGRI, ELARD and others that it will be mandatory. The second concern was who the beneficiaries of LEADER will be, whether it is farmers and forestry holders or rural communities at large. Again, the MFF proposals are not very ambiguous or reassuring on this point, but we have had written confirmation that anybody who is currently eligible to be a beneficiary will remain soi. The third is ringfenced funding. That remains up in the air. It is a huge concern to us. As I said at the start, the possibility that LEADER might lose visibility in the much broader context of the national regional partnership plans, where there are all these other competing priorities, is very real and something we are concerned about.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I ask Ms Houlihan to comment quickly. We are over time.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

I have one comment. One of biggest things that Ms O'Neill has touched on is around the narrative of getting into farming. When you open the newspapers, however, the first thing you will see is always an older farming saying that they would not encourage their son or daughter to get into farming. They also have to change the outlook. I am a physiotherapist and Ms O'Neill is a teacher. If I was told I would not get into physio, of course I am not going into physio if I hear all the negatives. The older generation have to carry their part of the can here too. The two of us cannot come in here and say that young farmers want to farm, because they do want to farm. We have ambition, drive and innovation. If I could go back and farm, I absolutely would. It is the older one who has to-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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To be fair to them, if they produce an animal and are getting less than what it cost to produce them, they are in bad form sometimes and I do not blame them.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. On the young farmer, it is quite difficult when they are getting small money. Beef is at a great price at the moment, but it all has challenges. With my husband, it is a passion and way of life. Going back, my mother-in-law and father-in-law both worked on a farm. There was no outside job. They did not have a mortgage. The farm was the family home. That is one of the big issues at the moment where we all do not live with our in-laws or at least try not to. We have our own mortgage. That is an extra cost that the generation before us never had. They would have been able to rear the family and have a few chickens on the side or whatever it was. They were self-sufficient mostly. The high cost of mortgages and stuff has a big part to play in the return.

On the two-pillar CAP and this idea whereby they are putting money into arms and so on, that should be completely separate. It should not be taking away from anything here. When we see the reduction of 20% to 24%, that is a huge drop. It is horrendous. It is all down to food security and good-quality food. We all see that with the Mercosur trade deal. It is a disgusting deal. How someone can walk into a shop, like a child going into a sweet shop, and pick one of those and one of another and come out with a bag of medication. They have had time to get to where we are. The only thing they did not have was the investment that we had to get to where we are through European government, the Irish Government and farmers' own investment. It is not just that. It is the derogations and everything. There is so much coming at farmers. I can understand why there is a little bit of hesitation on the part of young farmers. We need to make it easier for them to transition. We cannot do anything about the cost of mortgages right now, but the paperwork and red tape is huge. A huge amount of work and paperwork has to be done. That all has to be somewhat eased.

I see in my community and sports club the work that is done there through LEADER. It might just be that little leg up on the ladder that the person needs to go into full employment, and it is giving them that open door to get into it. It needs to be encouraged more. It is great to hear those stories about the milk, flavoured milks and stuff like that. These are great things. This is where the expertise comes in to guide someone because they get to know that person who is on the LEADER programme for a while and can guide them into what is the next step for them. By summer 2026, they are saying there will be some kind of guide for us. With the work that has been done in Europe, what work can we, as the agriculture committee, do for the witnesses' organisations?

Ms Karen Mannion:

On the work in Europe, the network, ELARD, has resources that we do not have in our network. It has collective resources. It is working hard on it. It is communicative and very good at coming back and over. As Deputy Fitzmaurice said, there is so much uncertainty. There is so much "on one hand this and on the other hand that", so we will see how it unfolds. As I mentioned earlier, there is so much we can do in Europe. Of course, we are interacting all the time with our MEPs on this. To be fair, they seem to be fighting hard. There are others things going out that members have mentioned. In the new year and towards summer 2026, things might settle down a bit and we might have a bit more clarity on the way things are going settle. It is back to our national Government having a say in this national and regional plan. We have to be creative and dynamic about how this might work for us.

It is not everything in Europe. Yes, it is part of it, but it will come back here. Hopefully, that is where the committee will be able to use its influence for the betterment of young farmers and rural development in general. I reiterate the point that of course we have to encourage young farmers and new entrants, because at the end of the day it is back to the environment. As members know, Connemara is a beautiful place and we have a lot of environmental designations. We have to try to keep the land. If farmers are not using the land, that affects our biodiversity. There are so many layers to this. If we are going to encourage young people to either come back or to stay - to have the right to stay in the area - they need to have good facilities and a good quality of life. LEADER is a really big part of the extension on the community hall and the funding for new business. Social enterprise is very important in my area because the market might not be able to have the meals-on-wheels service, the community gym or whatever social enterprise. LEADER is a philosophy and we use the LEADER method of building capacity in people to leverage other funds. We have the RRDF and other funds that we can access. Unless a community group has the skills and confidence to go for that type of funding, we will be all the worse for it.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

Members asked what the committee and the Government could do: it is to remember the young farmer, so that supports are put in place in the development of the national and regional partnership plans for generational renewal and young farmers. While we welcome the likes of the single access point for the CAP supports that are outlined in the starter pack for young farmers, we need to do more for simplification to ensure the attractiveness of the sector.

Mortgages were mentioned as well. It is very easy to talk about mortgages when a person has planning permission, but without the delivery of the rural planning guidelines, getting a mortgage is just a dream for many young people, and young farmers. We need to ensure the delivery of the guidelines to ensure consistency of housing and access to rural Ireland for young people.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

I will make a quick point on the funding. Efforts will be made to maximise the funding from Europe but, as has been pointed out already, the Government can top up and co-fund the LEADER fund in Ireland. There is precedent and a necessity to do that. In recent years we have seen quite a few new streams of funding coming into rural areas. They have come through local authorities rather than through LEADER groups, but it demonstrates that there is additional willingness at national level to provide additional rural funding for community projects or local development. That can be looked at as a means of maybe increasing the LEADER funding and making LEADER groups viable. There is a minimum threshold at which LEADER groups must get funding in order to be viable and have any semblance of being a development body and providing grant aid. Below that threshold, which has been set at €4 million by the local development company network, a LEADER group is just not viable. There are other streams of funding nationally that can be tapped into or that should be diverted back into LEADER as the co-funding top-up from the national government.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank all the witnesses from the LEADER groups and Macra for coming in today. I really appreciate their presence. I commend the work of all the LEADER groups. Many of them operate in a voluntary capacity and that should be recognised as well as the great work of LEADER. I am not long in politics, but I have seen so many projects in the past year. I recently saw the launch of Cabots Cookery School in Westport that teaches the local community about cooking. It gets its produce from local farms. It is an amazing social enterprise operation that would not have been possible without the support of LEADER.

I welcome Mr. Fitzpatrick, who like me is from Mayo. I congratulate him on his appointment as chair. What are the key points for the report we are doing for the Minister, Deputy Calleary? When we have Ministers and Commissioners in before us, they always deflect to Europe and say that is where the decisions are made. Pillar 2 comes from Europe but we can work to protect it and also to supplement it in our budget. What are the key points the witnesses would like to get across to the Minister, Deputy Calleary, in this regard? We will certainly work on them.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Just to clarify, it is a political contribution for Europe, unless the committee wishes to send it to different Ministers. That is secondary. Our main decision is that it is a political contribution.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I beg your pardon, Chair. He is the Minister responsible, but I take the point.

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

The main thing about LEADER is that the goal of LEADER and development companies is much the same. They are from the bottom up. People come up with an idea - a few have been mentioned - and there are hundreds and thousands around the country. People go in with an idea and they get help with an application. They are told where to go. LEADER was there. It was from the bottom up. They did not get all the money. There were certain rules relating to the environment, the local community, local business, tourism, climate change and the creation of jobs. Bits and pieces could be added to community centres. That is what LEADER was for in rural areas. It worked for both agricultural and non-agricultural people. Anyone who lived in the countryside got the benefit of it. That is still to be seen. Some of the companies that were started by LEADER are still there today. It might have been a few years ago but the plaque is still on the back wall. That is what LEADER was about. With local development companies we are active in every parish and town, including on the islands. We have the best value, with the people who are in there - the CEOs and their programme managers. They have the knowledge and skills to get the most for the individual and to start them off - to get an extension on a local club and to get projects off the ground. That is what LEADER meant in local areas. That is what local development companies do and that is what the local development company network supports. It is from the bottom up. There is no discrimination. It starts with the people who are involved in their rural areas.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I will answer the questions that were asked and make three or four points. Mr. O'Donnell mentioned a number of them. First, LEADER should be mandatory throughout Europe. Second, the beneficiaries must be broader than just farmers and forestry owners. All rural dwellers must be eligible. We have talked about that at Macra. We are all working together. In future, the ring-fenced amount for the LEADER programme in Ireland should be €425 million.

Ms Graham mentioned another point. There is a level below which a LEADER company cannot operate. The likes of the rural social scheme again helps small farmers. The rural recreation officers and the rural walks scheme get money into rural areas. We have operated the RRDF as well. Mountain access programmes would not happen without LEADER operating on the ground. That is a real existential issue for us in the next round.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

A crucial point that is being made is that the return on the investment - if we want to look at it in those terms - on LEADER funding in rural areas is huge. There are huge multipliers from LEADER beyond the €450 million. There is all the leveraging, added value and enabling of other things to happen from other Government programmes, schemes and Departments. LEADER is a catalyst for a whole lot of other things that happen in rural areas. That is proven. We can see that. Those members who know local development companies know how it works. We have done a family tree project in County Clare. LEADER is just one of those boxes. All of those other things are happening in our company in County Clare. They are linked to LEADER, which helps directly or indirectly to enable them to happen. We are all like that.

If we are making the argument to Brussels and to our own Government, it is that the return on the investment, the value for money and the impact of LEADER go far beyond that direct investment. It multiplies out and is there for everyone to see. There have been evaluations and studies that prove that and put figures on it.

Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank Ms Graham. I did not get a chance to ask Ms O'Neill and Ms Houlihan, but I thank them as well. They made valuable contributions in terms of planning, succession and land mobility that we will certainly work on.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. I compliment them on the fantastic work they are doing. Naturally enough, there is a concern. Whenever there is a change, there is always concern, and rightly so. I have a couple of questions for Ms Graham. Tourism is especially important as part of the rural economy, especially in the likes of Clare and rural areas like that. Under the current LEADER programme, are we missing out on high-quality tourism projects that will benefit rural communities because the programme is not funded properly? Do they think that there are any other funding streams that can support tourism development projects in the future if the LEADER programme is not supported properly in the next round of CAP, which is a serious concern?

Ms Dóirín Graham:

There is a serious lack of funding. Tourism is important in Clare and in many of the LEADER group areas. In our case, we will have no funding for LEADER tourism projects after December. All our tourism funding will be gone. For the next three years, there is no small rural tourism project in the county that will be able to access public funding, LEADER funding or any other funding. There is nothing to replace that. That would be similar in lots of parts of the country. Because the current programme is underfunded, we are all at risk of running out of LEADER funding in the next year or two. Then you are facing maybe two or three years with no LEADER funding for those projects on the ground. That is because the current programme is underfunded, but it shows the risk. If that continues into the future, can you even open the doors in the first place on tourism funding if you can only fund such a small amount?

The viability of tourism projects and a whole range of LEADER-supported areas is at risk because of the lack of funding. It is not because of the lack of projects. We have ten excellent, high-quality LEADER projects or tourism projects that we could fund in the next year, but we will not be able to fund them. Tourism is such an important part of the development of rural economies. It gets out into places and reaches places that a lot of other developments do not.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Can this have a serious effect on employment going forward in the tourism sector?

Ms Dóirín Graham:

Absolutely. There are so many seasonal and all-year projects. Increasingly, a lot of rural tourism projects are actually bringing people in at all times of the year. They are not as seasonal as they used to be. They are experiential, innovative, water-based or food-based. They are bringing people in at all times of the year. That employment that used to be very seasonal, particularly in the west of Ireland, is less so now. There are job opportunities that can spread all year round or into most of the year. Employment is definitely going to be affected. It is into places where there are no other opportunities for jobs.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I agree with Ms Graham on that. It is a serious concern, more so to rural areas that are going to be affected going forward. That needs to be looked at going forward. I know from my own time as a councillor the importance of Ms Graham's organisation and the LEADER programme to rural communities and the added value Ms Graham and the scheme bring to the local authority, which is important. Will she outline the value of the CLDC and Clare County Council to each other, the sort of projects that get delivered because of this added value and the impact any reduction in LEADER funding might have on this? It can have a lot of benefit for rural communities.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

I think Deputy Kenny mentioned the local authority LEADER and the decline we all believe is there since then. There is another way of working, which is collaboratively and in partnership with local authorities. We have had county councillors on our board all of the time we have been an independent LEADER group. We do not have to be pitted against each other. We can work well together by using our strengths. In that regard, Clare County Council has asked us to work with it on identifying and working with more depopulated rural communities in Clare to see how we can work together to bring supports to those areas. The county council wants to do its bit. It wants us to work with it in order that we can jointly lift these places from where they are now and help to turn around the decline that we all see.

There is a great opportunity. We talk in Clare about specific places like Kilrush, where there is a high level of disadvantage. We have resources and plans for that town. The council wants to work with us in developing that. There are places that we can focus on. There are general areas like social enterprise, community development and rural services. LEADER has smart village collaboration, where we can work together to develop and modernise a lot of the development of rural communities. There are lots of good examples all around the country of where that can happen. That works best when it is in partnership, not the local authority making the decisions but working in partnership and recognising the strengths that we have. We are not the same and do not need to be the same to work together. In fact, we work best through putting all our skills and resources together. In Clare, we are on a good path with the local authority on that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Some fantastic work has been achieved with the local authority and CLDC. As Ms Graham knows, a reduction in LEADER funding is going to affect that going forward.

I have one quick point as regards Macra na Feirme. The last line in Macra's statement provided to the committee reads, "Because without farmers, we have no food and without young farmers, we have no future." I agree 100% with that. I see the concerns it has. Would Ms O'Neill elaborate a bit more? If this funding is cut back, what way is it going to affect agriculture in our country, especially for young farmers?

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

When we look at the current statistics of 4.3% of farmers under the age of 35, any further cuts to funding from CAP would have a significantly negative impact on the future for young farmers. It would affect the certainty that would provide farmers in terms of their business plans. We need to ensure that we promote generational renewal, which would be a key element under the programme focus of the future CAP. All of this provides a more certain future for our young farmers that we need to fight for. We also need to ensure that there are sustainable food systems going forward. CAP needs to underpin those sustainable food systems.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I see where the concerns are coming from, and rightly so. It is something we have to try to defend and not allow this to happen. The future of farms is important in our country, but most important of all is the future of young farmers. That is what it is about.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses, especially Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly. He is a Kerryman and he has done great work for north and east Kerry partnership. We are talking here about the people on the ground. I know the witnesses have all been working in their own areas. We especially welcome the two young girls here. It is great to see them here taking part in this debate. They are our future. When we will not be here, they will be here. We will be depending on them to take over. I have raised the issue in the Chamber in the last number of weeks about work-life balance. I can see and know at first hand where that debate has taken place between many fathers, sons and daughters where they are saying they are not going to tie themselves down to what they call the slavery the older people went through.

As Deputy Fitzmaurice said, there are so many changes. That has always been the way with farming. We did the work and only gave bare attention to what was happening with the Government here or with Europe. However we survived, the money aspect of it was not considered enough at all. We see where some fellow won the lottery many years ago. He was a farmer. When they asked him what he would do with the money, he said, “I will stay farming away. Won’t it go that way?” That was his honest answer.

Young people see what is going on their phones every minute. They also see the way farmers are being vilified on a daily basis by a certain group in the Dáil Chamber. That is constantly going on, with regulations and people coming out to check the farms. People are terrified when they see someone coming with a white coat and books and papers. We are all scared of that, and think, “Who is he?” or “Who is she?”

Farming is a vocation, as was stated by one of the young girls here. Farming is a vocation because you have to keep at it. If you make no profit this year, you are not going to sell the cows or sheep. You live in hope and try to stick it out for another year.

We know what has happened to LEADER and the local development companies. I know because I was on the council at the time they changed. To be honest, and I do not care who I hurt, it was the parties that took it over, and they shared what they could out of it. We could not get on an LCDC or any board now as an Independent. That is the truth.

Will Mr. O'Reilly indicate how do we ensure we get more funding for LEADER? What can the committee do in that regard?

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I thank the Deputy for his support. He is on the ground as much as we are, and he does the night work, as we do as well. It is great that he has that support for us.

As Mr. O'Donnell said, it is really about analysing the policy coming from Europe to see how we can maximise this for farmers, in particular young farmers coming through, and for rural dwellers. That is the best way.

Ms Graham pointed out that we will be running out of money in Kerry by next year - both North, East and West Kerry Development and the South Kerry Development Partnership - and we are 90% committed already. As Ms Graham said, LEADER is under-resourced as it is. Mr. Fitzpatrick pointed out that there is latent demand for it but it has not taken into account the inflationary pressures. Even now, we would like to see whether we can get more funding into this programme. The precedent is there in terms of the Exchequer potentially increasing the cofinancing rate for this LEADER programme. There is a real need for that. The last time around, there was a central fund for food and co-operation projects. I am not saying that is the way it should be, but as Ms Graham said, tourism is needed but our budgets are gone. Both now and into the future, rural dwellers need to be resourced.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have a question for these young girls. One of the things I am not sure people consider enough is planning to build new houses. It is an awful cost. At the same time, we can see the situation of young couples. Over the years, I have seen situations where a young couple builds a new house. The parents or the older generation are down the road in another house, and then they are gone, and their house is left idle. I have seen it working perfectly in some instances, where the young couple build an extension onto the house, and have their own sitting room, kitchen and maybe one bedroom. They need not build as big a house because they have the use of most of the original house as well. It would be doing two things: the younger generation would mind the older crowd and the older crowd might babysit the youngsters. There are things like that to be considered. We are not all bad - the old people. The witnesses might want to say something about that.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

To touch on planning, although I cannot remember exactly the year, when the rules on once-off planning came out, my brother and I both went for planning. I forked out about €10,000 for plans for a house, but I have not built that house, and my planning has lapsed, along with every test that I had to get done. I cannot afford to go for planning again. To be honest, I am looking at the option of extending our home house. That is an option for us. The biggest barrier, when we look at our membership, is succession. When the conversation is not had about succession, people assume they do not have a life on the farm or do not see a future on the farm. They go away and possibly buy or build a house somewhere else. We need to incentivise that conversation in order to ensure that people are doing the correct things. There are derelict houses everywhere at the moment.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The strict urban regeneration clause is a barrier. There are people who live in a locality and who can get a site locally, but they cannot get planning permission because of the strict urban regeneration rule. In the first place, that was to stop people coming out from towns to the country, but it is stopping people who live next to particular sites. We are trying to get that changed with the Ministers and the Taoiseach. Would that help many people?

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

Absolutely. We have been asking for the delivery of the rural planning guidelines. We look forward to their being delivered in order that there will be greater clarity for young people.

I will touch briefly on other points made by the Deputy. He spoke about work-life balance. Our young farmers are trained and passionate, and they are keen to adopt new technologies and the innovation that will support work-life balance and improved environmental sustainability. With regard to CAP, we need to see measures like the TAMS grant being continued to ensure there is greater support to allow them to adopt those technologies.

The Deputy mentioned regulations and the men in white coats arriving. Those regulations and inspections are very important to ensure traceability and the high standards of food production we all know about. However, we have to be careful of overregulation and over-inspection. As part of that, we also need to ensure that the mental toll that they place on young farmers, and farmers in general, is addressed. We need greater mental health supports for young people and young farmers in rural Ireland.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have read all of the opening statements. I apologise that I am a little late, but I was speaking in the Dáil in relation to the greyhound and horse racing industries, which also play a vital role in the rural and regional economy across Ireland. I want my split my section into two parts. I will focus on LEADER first and then on Macra. I will try to be as succinct as I can.

In relation to LEADER, there is not a town or village in Carlow or Kilkenny that has not benefited from LEADER funding in the past 15 or 20 years. That is the reality. There is one example that epitomises the success of LEADER. It is in my own village of Graiguenamanagah, where we have the Barrow Valley Activities Hub, with which the witnesses may be familiar. To cut a long story short, between LEADER funding, the local authority and recreational infrastructure schemes through the Minister for rural affairs, Deputy Dara Calleary, a significant amount of money has gone into developing a fantastic campsite. It is probably the best campsite in Ireland, and that is no joke. It is worth over €1 million to the local economy. Graiguenamanagh has a population of 1,500 people. It is a small village on the Kilkenny-Carlow border. It was an idea that started as an acorn and grew into this massive thing, but it would not have happened without LEADER funding, local authority funding and departmental funding.

My specific question is this. Going forward, with Pillar 2 likely coming out of the CAP post 2027, are there even greater opportunities for more significant funding to be made available for rural communities, whether that be to upgrade halls, develop community hubs or whatever?

From my conversations with the Commissioner last September and October, while there is a deficit in the overall CAP funding in terms of its current format, I have been led to believe that there could be a significant amount of additional funding and opportunities for Irish communities and for rural communities around my constituency in Carlow-Kilkenny. Can I start with that?

Ms Karen Mannion:

It is vital that we explore additional funding. Again, it is back to the national and regional plans and how the are designed. I am a member of the CAP consultative committee on behalf of the network. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, has called this committee, and it is excellent to hear the views of our colleagues in Macra, the Organic Trust, the IFA, the ICMSA, Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, etc. It is vital that we look at the likes of the ESF. We need to remember that as we are going from 60 funds down to 16 in the MFF, so it is about finding our way in that. It will take time and a bit of creativity and imagination, but there are possibilities in terms of the ESF, the Cohesion Fund, the ERDF, etc. Going back to what my colleague was saying, we need our LAGs to be secure in terms of being able to do it, and while there are loads of opportunities, it is how we get to that point, and we are in very uncharted territory here. At least before we knew 5% of Pillar 2 was LEADER funding, no more than our colleagues in Macra were saying that this was ring-fenced funding. Ms Graham might want to add something.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

The key point to make to add to that is that it needs to be ring-fenced. If other funding other than LEADER comes-----

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I agree.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

-----if it is not ring-fenced, if it just floating out there, we may or may not get it. That is not what we need and it will not work.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I will go now to the two Macra girls, or powerful women, as I would call them. It is very refreshing to see that the two Macra representatives are actually females. I think it is indicative of the times we live in. It is a credit to themselves individually, but it is a credit to Macra as well and I just wanted to acknowledge that.

I know from earlier conversations the agricultural sector is facing a generational renewal crisis, and there is no doubt about it. I think only 4.3% of our farmers are under the age of 35. I want to speak about changing the national discussion on farming to positively support environmental, social and economic sustainability and to enhance the image of farming as a career. The two women before the committee are perfect examples of the current environment in that one is a physiotherapist and one is a teacher and are combining those roles with farming duties. Will the witnesses expand on that a little bit? The angle I am trying to get at is, when a politician, a teacher or a physiotherapist gets to 65 or 66, they retire, and then when they are 70 years of age they are retired. However when a farmer is 65, 70 or 75, they are still a farmer. They do not actually retire in many cases. I think that is one of the differences. The witnesses might just talk to us a bit about that.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

The Deputy's question plays into a lot of what we are discussing at the moment, which is, first of all, providing an attractive future for young people in agriculture. One of the things we need to do, and we have spoken about it here already today, is to change the narrative. We need to make sure that young people can see the positives in farming, rather than the long hours and everything that is spoken about when things are tough. We need to highlight the work-life balance that people can have, the fact that they can work their own hours and that they can work outside and that there are so many opportunities for young people in farming. We need to focus on highlighting them more. I know it was mentioned already as well about greater focus on agriculture as a future career in schools. I am a secondary school teacher. I know that many young people, including many of my students, who would love a career in agriculture, but they need to see that it is a viable future for them. They need to know that farming will provide an economic and financial income that can support them and their families in the future. First and foremost, they need know to that there is a place for them in the family farm and in rural Ireland. To do that, we need to open the door for the conversation around succession and we need to normalise this conversation.

In terms of generational renewal as well, we need to provide greater support for young people in agriculture, whether that is the likes of the young farmer establishment fund, the generational renewal fund, or installation aid, which has not been touched on today. Ireland is the only country in Europe that does not provide installation aid for young people and that is something we need to work on to ensure that young people who want to start in agriculture have that start. I will hand over to Ms Houlihan who might touch on the land mobility service that can provide an access point for young people who do not have land.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

Yes, we already touched on it previously. Macra created the land mobility service and it is now in its tenth year. Unfortunately, our funding of €100,000 was pulled. This is a very small amount of funding but, unfortunately, that is make or break for us because it is a subsidised service. We have so many young farmers looking to get into farming, but when we say this to politicians, they say that is not the case and young people do not want the farm. They actually do want to farm. We do have ambitions, hopes and dreams to always farm. Going back to what Ms O'Neill said, it is the narrative that we have been listening to, advising us not to get into farming because there is no money in it. Those are the narratives that we need to change, because there are so many positives. I love going out on the farm. I get a thrill from it. It is different when the cheques come in. That comes back to viability, but going to back to the land mobility service, the older farmers are willing to go into those leases and we are there to facilitate it but we cannot continue to facilitate it without that funding. We never got that funding out of a CAP fund. It was just funding that was given to us. Going forward for CAP, that funding has to be put back in place. I know it is there as a point on the generational renewal report.

Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The two witnesses are an unbelievable advertisement for generational renewal because of their passion, enthusiasm and the energy. For me as a rural TD, the importance of the viability of family farms is massive, irrespective of the type of farm, whether it be suckler, dairy, tillage, horses or sheep. I see huge energy and interest in younger people. For example in Borris College, where my young daughters go to school, there is a huge issue with parking at the moment, because of the 16 and 17 year-old boys and girls driving in to the college in their tractors and taking up two spaces when the teachers can only have one. They are so interested and so invested in agriculture. I stress the importance and the significance of it for communities in rural Ireland. When we have a strong agricultural system and a flow of people coming through into the sector, the impact this has on our primary schools, secondary schools, GAA clubs, pubs and shops is unbelievable. It is really important that the views of the witnesses and the points made in their pre-budget submission need to be considered and some of them need to implemented by the Government. If we always do what we always did, we will always get what we always got. We need to change and we need to invest in Macra and the future of farming.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. I, too, am a farmer. I congratulate Ms O'Neill on being elected to her position It is wonderful to have two ladies in these positions, even though Danny Healy-Rae might be afraid of white jackets or white coats. I am sure if they came into my farm, I would walk up to see them rather than run away like Danny. The witnesses are 100% right. We have to support the next generation of young farmers. Anyone who goes to the National Ploughing Championships will see the amount of young people there. This week we have seen the fat stock sales in Carrick-on-Shannon, which is a festival. The number of young people who were at the fat stock sales is unbelievable and it shows the interest in farming in the younger community. If we want to continue to produce the quality food we are producing now, we need to support the sector. I have a son of 19 and I am sure he would love to take over the farm but he sees the work involved and, unfortunately, he sees the party life and enjoyment that is part of being young as well. There has to be a balance and we have to support young farmers.

How do we support a farmer in the west of Ireland or my part of the country, which is known as a severely disadvantaged area? There is no comparison between 100 acres in the west of Ireland and 100 acres in Tipperary. We have seen the shift towards environmental impact in the CAP. We have seen supporting projects that are environmental.

Do the witnesses envisage that, under the new CAP, farmers in the west of Ireland, rather than farming, will be paid to support environmental aspects of farming on poorer land while farmers of better land will be let farm? There has to be cohesion. A farmer in the hills of Kerry is not going to produce what a farmer in, let us say, the "Kerrygold" area is going to produce. There are different types of farming and all of them have to be supported. I ask Ms O'Neill to respond and I will then come back on LEADER.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

It is important that we support Irish farmers everywhere. The most recent updates to the CAP proposals provide clarity surrounding the definition of the active farmer. It is important that all sectors are adequately supported through the CAP proposals. From a Macra perspective, we are very much fighting the fight and banging the drum for supports for the young farmer and making sure the young farmer is supported through the likes of the generation renewal payments and the work-life balance. The Senator mentioned his son and the party element. We need supports for the farm relief services too, so young people can have a work-life balance. Ms Houlihan will address that further.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

The Senator talked about the different land. I am from the Golden Vale. I might as well say that now.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I am from Longford.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

We have to look at the systems that are currently in place. If we have 100 acres, we are going to make a higher profit than, for example, somebody who is hill farming. Those systems need to be broken down. However, they can only be broken down when we are brought to the tables for discussions. These views need to be brought forward. We are here today talking about post-CAP and representing young farmers. We have LEADER funding and I have great experiences with LEADER funding. Going forward, there needs to be a lot more smart thinking about this. I do not think young farmers' views on CAP have not been heard fully today. This is a massive issue for young farmers and LEADER. We need a bit of thinking from the Government. Deputy Cleere said the Government needs to take action. How can it take action when we are not at the big league table with other farming organisations? I will leave it at that.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I am from Longford. We have a number of projects that went through LEADER and were heavily supported, and they are working. When a farmer, young or old, in Longford is asked to try to farm marginal land they will see forestry companies coming in, buying up land and planting it in their area. That is happening and young farmers are not getting a chance to expand. Young farmers need a way to borrow money at cheaper rate. If we intend to be serious about supporting young farmers, there has to be some borrowing mechanism in place for them to borrow money at a cheaper rate than anybody else. Regarding LEADER, should more money be provided under the new CAP to support seriously disadvantaged areas that have seen a decline in the number of schools and in population, for example, Leitrim, Longford and the west? I ask the witnesses to comment on that. I support LEADER and the projects the witnesses do.

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

I farm in the west of Ireland. LEADER is for both farmers and non-farmers. In one way, to get young farmers involved, we need people, and LEADER brings people into the rural areas. When there are people in these areas, even if they are not farmers, before you know it, they are dipping into a little bit of agriculture and dipping out of it again. If we do not have people in rural areas, farmers will not survive and vice versa. It is a chicken and egg situation. We have to support the whole rural economy. People will bring on people like business brings on business. The more people there are in a parish, the more chance there are that there will be people interested in agriculture. They may not own the land but they will have an interest in agriculture. It is back to the basics, namely, we need people in rural areas.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There are aspects of farming - it might not be producing goods, eggs or meat - that we need to look at, where farmers can make a viable living off certain other areas off the farm.

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

It works both ways. If there are people, there will be someone buying stuff. If a farm needs help, there will be someone there the farmer can pay to help. That is why it is about people in rural areas.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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People will not stay unless there is something to stay for. There has to be something for people to stay and a place to live.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

Deprivation and rural depopulation are built into the LEADER calculations. If there is not enough money there, it is squeezed, however, and funding has not even kept pace with inflation. Deputy Kenny mentioned depopulation, that is built in.

We are asked about looking at other funds and how we can get them. Members all seem to be big fans of the LEADER and community-led approach. It is about embedding that community-led local development approach into the other funds as well. That potentially frees up the other funds to come through the likes of the local development companies and LEADER companies. That is a positive approach, to respond to a proposal one of the Deputies made a few minutes ago.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Just to clarify, Mr. O'Reilly spoke about coming together, but he did not say CAP funding should be divided into some of the other funds. Is that what he meant? He mentioned bringing other groupings together. Is that correct?

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

I am not sure of the Deputy's name, but he mentioned a while ago that he was talking to the Commissioner about funds outside the CAP, as well as the CAP.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is as well as the CAP.

Mr. Eamonn O'Reilly:

Correct.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I took Mr. O'Reilly up wrong. I thought he was talking about CAP because everybody knows there is a cut in CAP funding and we are now going to look for the Government to make up the deficit to bring us back to where we were. I find that difficult. As to whether that will happen, there is a cloud at the moment hanging over where exactly we are at with this whole CAP. It is difficult to plan anything when we do not know the road we are going, unfortunately. I support LEADER. I certainly support Macra because it has a done a wonderful job of promoting young farmers for the past number of years.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before I go to Senator Boyhan, I have some brief questions. The witnesses have been involved with different organisations and possibly pushing the case to EU level through various channels that might also be available to them. If so, what are they pushing and what kind of feedback are they getting? What is the response at EU level to their representations?

Ms Karen Mannion:

There is good communication with the MEPs. The CAP consultative committee consists of the stakeholders from agriculture. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, set that up. It was in the previous round of CAP as well. That committee has worked well. That is kind of covered in terms of CAP. As Mr. O'Donnell mentioned, we do not want LEADER and rural development to get lost in that big pile. Nonetheless, we have to look at alternatives, such as a cross-departmental task force to look at this. As a network, we are putting some funds into getting a consultant to do a document for us to see if we can manoeuvre and give some suggestions to the Government in terms-----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Beyond the political sphere, the EU machinery and public service, what channels or levers have the witnesses been pushing there?

I want to understand how they are getting on with that. What kind of feedback have they been getting at EU level? We, the public representatives, will have been engaging at political level in the EU. I am interested to hear what kind of response the witnesses are getting at EU level with the various public services there.

Ms Karen Mannion:

The main driver would be ELARD. Also, CEOs and chairs from the network are involved in the European pact and the European Parliament. There is a CAP network. There are other channels but at the moment it is mainly ELARD. They have been very communicative. They have been sharing information through WhatsApp and email. I am flying over for one of our senior meetings on 3 December. As was said earlier, there is a cloud. We just cannot see it yet. We are at such an early stage but we are working our way through it.

Ms Dóirín Graham:

There are quite extensive efforts to get that message to the Commission. Traditionally, at national level we have had a lot of contact with European Commission officials. We are pushing through those channels and, in particular, the network to get the message across. We do not have anything tangible. The Commission traditionally has always been good at listening. Our experience historically has been that it listens and wants to know from organisations on the ground what is going on and what the view is. There will have to be a lot of pushing those messages through Commission channels over the next six months.

Mr. Thomas Fitzpatrick:

We had a conference in Ballina on 30 and 31 October and the president of ELARD attended both days. The conference was organised by the local development conference network, LDCN. It was attended by Ministers and Department officials as well.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. I want to shift the focus to generational renewal. The CAP funding was a big part of that. We hear suggestions that, under the new proposal, older farmers would have to choose between a pension or the payments. That is putting one generation at odds with another. The whole thing behind LEADER is we are all in it together. What can be done to avoid generational conflict and advance generational renewal?

Second, if there are young farmer views that have not yet been articulated at today's meeting, I would be interested to hear them.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

On older farmers choosing the pension over payments, the commission on generational renewal's report had a slightly different take on that idea. Rather than the older farmer losing out on their pension when still in receipt of payments, it would almost be held in trust for them. That is an option that should be considered.

Any of these recommendations that are considered need to be considered in consultation with all stakeholders so everybody has their voices heard. In the decisions that will be made, we do not want to pit the older farmer against the younger farmer. We are very conscious older farmers have experience and wisdom to share with younger farmers and support them as they begin their journey. That is why we welcomed the young farmer establishment fund and the generational renewal payment to support both the older and the younger farmer in the transition towards succession of the land, infrastructure or resources.

There are other things we have not identified enough today. I mentioned briefly that we cannot wait until 2028 for this to happen. When we have the recommendations from the commission on generational renewal and Europe's generational strategy, we cannot expect CAP to be the answer to all of our prayers. We have been waiting decades for a successor scheme like Ms Houlihan mentioned and for action on this, and now we are at 4.3%. Where do we expect to be in 2028? That is too little, too late. We need action on these now. We need our national Exchequer to fund some kind of supports for generational renewal for young farmers. We cannot expect everything to happen through a CAP that already has a reduced budget.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

I will come in on the succession scheme. We have the opportunity in this country to champion a succession scheme and show it can work. We are part of the European Council of Young Farmers, CEJA. We said we went to our Government with a succession scheme and they all asked us for a copy of it. Their countries will probably get this over the line before we even write the word "succession" on a piece of paper. It is so disheartening to see. I cannot echo enough that the urgency of this is crazy.

I was at a conference the other day. Being from Limerick, I was very worried about Limerick. Farmers under the age of 35 in 1991 were at 13%; in 2020, it was 7%; and now we are gone down to 4%. It shows we are not looking at the decline and seeing it is critical. In my job as a healthcare worker, if I saw such a quick decline in anything, I would be like, "Oh my God, we need to do something now". I cannot understand the lack of urgency.

We are beating the drum. We walked from Athy to Dublin. We did everything. We are trying to get backing but, unfortunately, with only 4.3% of us under the age of 35, we are a minority in Ireland. Everybody needs to get behind us. That is why I said we need to be around the table with other farming organisations to get this over the line and get everybody on the same thought line. We are in here talking about succession. The members have probably heard of retirement from others. We need smart thinking in these discussions.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will go back to some key issues the witnesses talked about. First, on the land mobility funding being pulled, three texts came into me there asking what Ms Houlihan is talking about. I am conscious when we are speaking in here that this is a cosy little room but there will be thousands of people looking at this tomorrow on "Oireachtas Report", agricultural newsfeeds, etc. Will Ms Houlihan clarify for us and those outside this room who the land mobility funding was pulled by and when? Who authorised it? When was it communicated to Ms Houlihan? Will she put context on that statement?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

The previous Minister for agriculture pulled the funding.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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When?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

I am trying to think of the exact day. It was last year's funding. We came out in our pre-budget this year looking for it to be reinstated.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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And it was not reinstated.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

No.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I am just trying to get the context-----

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

Absolutely. I appreciate it.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Ms Houlihan's organisation made the case for its reinstatement this year.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

Yes.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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So that is two years in succession now. Okay, I understand that. That is important in setting the context because people are clearly clued in, which is great.

When Ms Houlihan talks of young farmers, I fully agree with what she is saying. What we forget in all this debate about generational renewal, succession and transfer is the very valuable knowledge transfer. We cannot underestimate that. You do not become redundant because you are 65 or in retirement. The skill sets of the older generation were not learned from a text book or at agriculture college. They more than likely never got an opportunity to do any of that. Many of these guys left school at 11 but they were reared on the land, spoke of the land and understood the land. They were people of the land and you cannot buy that. You cannot impart that knowledge. It is so vast. I think the witnesses are saying - tell me if I am wrong - that we need to value that and pay for it through schemes for transfer, succession and moving on.

The tax implications of all this raise another issue. Then of course there are farmers who have no children and may have no nephews or nieces, yet they have valuable land assets. They want to see that success because great oak trees grow from little acorns. That is an important part. I am, and I think everyone here is, taking clearly from the meeting that the witnesses are passionate about this.

I am disappointed about the land mobility funding. To finish on that, the witnesses might take a second, for the punter outside here, to state what the land mobility funding does. They have made the point validly that Macra na Feirme has not been Government funded for two years. Will the witnesses tell the committee why this should be funded and what it is doing? They are clearly leading all this. Can they deal with the delay?

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

The land mobility service has been there for the past ten years. We have been providing opportunities for young and older farmers to enter and exit farming. It is widely known in the media as the Tinder for farmers, to match young and old farmers together.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will check it out later.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

It is vital because it is a subsidised service. It is accessible to everybody to utilise and it honestly baffled me when the funding was removed. We are part of CEJA and went over. Two other countries have put in place this land mobility service and they are using nearly the exact same logo. We almost could have a franchise around Europe at this stage. They are able to secure millions in funding while €100,000 is too much to ask for here in Ireland. Our sector is on its knees but we need this funding and it is a very small ask of any Government.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Ms Houlihan. We hear her loud and clear.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I just want to support - and I said it already - the comments on the 4.3%. I said it in my opening statement and I can see it. How low are we going to go before we say we are in a crisis situation? I do not think there is a need for it. As regards what the witnesses said about land mobility, we could have done that and it should have been done.

The other side of it is the fact that again, for the family farm -and I do not disagree with the witnesses - we are going to see many people working outside the farm because they have to. That is grand but that only suits a certain type of farmer. If you are milking cows or that, it is very difficult. It might be grand for a couple of months and then you will see the pressure come on and everything that will be affected by that with the domino effect from that.

Years ago, we did not have to do it that way. It was able to be done. That is now gone. Sixty cows used to be a good few cows at one time. It then went to 100 and now it is 200 up to 1,000 cows. Where is this going to stop and where is the family farm going to fit into all of this? We all talk about the family farm but every time we drive around, the family farm is gone. If you talk to any people, even those who were dealing in calves or anything and they were part of the community as well, they will say there is nobody there, did you not know that land has been set and that they are all gone. This is happening everywhere.

On that 4.3% statistic, can the witnesses tell me if there is any incentive at present where they could see it going to 4.5%? Please convince me, because I see it going from 4.3% now to the next time the witnesses come into talk to us, when it will be down under 4%. I do not see anything out there to say it will not. I did say we are getting a great price for weanlings in cattle but it has not changed for 25 years. That is why I was encouraging young people to keep the family farm and to go into milk. That was grand, but now you can see the price of milk dropping. Everybody is developing but it costs money to develop. There is no ring fence or guarantee at present. It is very volatile. When I started off, it was not volatile and if you were lucky and if times were different, you could buy a piece of land. There is no such thing as buying land now; it is gone. A young person cannot say he or she hopes to buy 15 or 20 acres, to keep an extra couple of cows and so on. That is all gone.

As for the tillage industry, when we got rid of the beet, that was gone. You can also see what is currently happening in the grain industry. You are talking about people who are not going to do it. Two years ago, the former Minister for agriculture, Deputy McConalogue, had to step in at the springtime of the year and had to guarantee farmers €30 million to put seeds in the ground.

We have not moved on, that is all I am saying. The witnesses have said what they said and they cannot cure the 4.3% either, but it is an alarming figure. Sometimes in this country, we let things go so low and we think if we throw money at it, that will fix it. It does not happen. We should be at it now and I support the witnesses 100%. That is all I wanted to say.

Ms Josephine O'Neill:

I thank the Deputy. He asked how low are we going to go. Our young farmers are an endangered species and we need action now. He also mentioned the family farm. The succession scheme we spoke about here today supports and protects the family farm because we know just how important it is for the likes of that knowledge transfer, for the parent or older farmer to transfer the land. It is not just the land, but also the knowledge and wisdom they have gained over their decades of farming. That experience is vital to support the younger farmer as they begin their career.

We also discussed the importance of the attractiveness of farming. The Deputy mentioned the drops in milk prices, the tillage sector and beef sector. We must ensure the next CAP can support income for our young farmers so that farming can be an attractive and economically viable career going forward.

Ms Elaine Houlihan:

I will add just one comment to that. For all the politicians here, as a young farmer, let the gates open for us; do not close it.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses have any comments on Mercosur?

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Steady on now, Deputy. I will chair now. We are focused on the CAP and we have another group coming in.

I thank everyone for their contributions. We have had a very constructive conversation and time was tight at the start. We have got more and more of it throughout the day. The witnesses' contributions have been added on to the committee record. If there are particular points they felt might have got overlooked or points they wanted to make and have considered, please send them forward to the committee for consideration ahead of our putting together our political contribution.

Tá mé an-bhuíoch as an gcomhrá agus as an gcomhoibriú ar fad inniu. As there are no further matters for discussion today, our meeting stands adjourned.