Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 26 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Regulation of Online Platforms and Supports to Improve Online Safety and Participation: Discussion
2:00 am
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Apologies have been received from Deputies Alan Kelly, Sinéad Gibney, and Brian Brennan and Senator Malcolm Noonan.
Today's meeting has been convened to commence the committee's scrutiny of matters relating to the regulation of online platforms and supports to improve online safety and participation. From the Department of Culture, Communications and Support, I welcome Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary with responsibility for broadcasting and media, and Mr. Seamus Hempenstall, principal officer with responsibility for digital and media plurality. From Coimisiún na Meán, I welcome Ms Niamh Hodnett, online safety commissioner, Dr. John Evans, digital services commissioner, Ms Tanya Warren, director of policy, and Mr. Wayne Moroney, director of platform supervision.
I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. Statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statement and presentation on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I would like to clarify some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Ms Tríona Quill:
I thank the committee for the invitation. The regulation of online platforms has undergone a transformation in recent years as a result of groundbreaking legislation, notably the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act which underpinned the establishment of Coimisiún na Meán and provided the legislative basis for the online safety code. At its outset in March 2023, Coimisiún na Meán had 40 staff. Now it has 260 and the Department has secured sanction for it to recruit up to 300 staff. In addition to its role as a media regulator, it now implements a range of online safety legislation from across government. This new online safety framework equips an coimisiún with the tools required to regulate online services, to supervise their compliance and enforce it as necessary, including by way of financial sanctions, should it be required.
In terms of significant developments in the framework, it is important to acknowledge the full application in July of this year of Ireland's online safety code. Also in July, the European Commission published guidelines on protection of minors under Article 28 of the Digital Services Act. It must be said that the first responsibility to keep users safe online lies with the platforms. As provided for in the Digital Services Act, once they are made aware of illegal content on their platform, they must act to remove it or be held responsible. More generally, the framework obliges them to take steps to minimise the availability of harmful, inappropriate or illegal content, especially if it could be encountered by children.
It is quite clear that robust age verification is a basic requirement. My colleagues and I are continuing to work with the Government's Chief Information Officer and his office to look at practical technical solutions to age verification as part of the Government's digital wallet being developed using MyGovID. The online safety code requires platforms to have robust age verification in place to protect children from content that is inappropriate for children, such as pornography.
In terms of encountering content, we know that algorithms and recommender systems can have harmful impacts on users, especially children. From a regulatory perspective, these issues are addressed in the Digital Services Act. The European Commission is the lead regulator for very large online platforms and very large online search engines and it is currently investigating TikTok and Meta, related in part to their recommender systems and their impact on children and young people. There are also clearly serious issues with people, including our elected representatives, being on the receiving end of appalling abuse and intimidatory behaviour. It is essential that people report such instances to the platforms in the first place, but then to Coimisiún na Meán if they do not receive a satisfactory response. If anyone feels unsafe, they should also report it to An Garda Síochána. We have seen in recent times how the Garda has brought perpetrators of such abuse to justice but it is clear that there is an onus on platforms to comply with regulatory obligations and minimise the availability of harmful content.
In April 2025, the Government approved the publication of the national counter disinformation strategy. It is important to say that the strategy does not set out to decide what is or is not disinformation and is clear that it is not the role of Government or regulators to decide on individual instances of disinformation. The strategy sets out to co-ordinate national efforts in the fight against disinformation, with the intention of limiting the creation and spreading of false, misleading and harmful material. One of its fundamental aims is to promote resilience in people, to support media literacy and promote high-quality journalism to help people make their own decisions about what is or is not disinformation. The Minister secured €1.1 million in budget 2026 to support its implementation. The focus will be on media literacy, fact-checking and research initiatives to support relevant actions in the strategy.
I will conclude by saying that our online safety framework is relatively recent. New challenges are being identified and we must continually develop new responses. The audio visual media services, AVMS, directive, which underpins the online safety code, is currently being evaluated and proposals for its revision will be brought forward by the European Commission in quarter 3 of 2026, during Ireland's Presidency of the EU. This represents a key opportunity to further develop our online safety framework at European level. This is important, given that Ireland regulates the AVMS for the whole of Europe for platforms established here. It is also important because any national measures must be in compliance with existing European law. In that context, one of the main issues of debate is the issue of a minimum age for social media, the so called digital age of majority. Regulation alone will not address all these challenges nor allow children and young people to derive all the benefits that the online world can bring. We must work to support parents and families to talk online safety and be aware of the pitfalls. Critically, we must hear the voice of children and young people. Online safety is a whole-of-society issue and a whole-of-government priority. From a regulatory perspective, we have made good progress, but we have more to do.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today. I am joined by my colleagues, Dr. John Evans, digital services commissioner, Ms Tanya Warren, director of policy at Coimisiún na Meán, and Mr. Wayne Moroney, director of platform supervision. As mentioned by my colleagues in attendance last week, Coimisiún na Meán’s vision is to ensure a thriving, diverse, creative, safe and trusted media landscape, and we welcome the opportunity to continue this discussion with committee members.
Earlier this year, we published our first three-year strategy, which focuses on six key outcome areas: children, democracy, trust, public safety, diversity, and Irish culture and media. Central to our work since our establishment has been the development of Ireland's regulatory regime for online safety. The result, the online safety framework, has been in full force since July of this year and consists of three pieces of legislation, namely, the Digital Services Act, the terrorist content online regulation and the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act, which is the basis for our online safety code. The online safety framework plays a crucial role in providing members of the public with rights in relation to the safer use of online platforms. These rights include a right to report illegal or harmful content as well as protections for freedom of expression, such as the right to appeal content moderation decisions, including when content is removed.
Under our online safety framework, we hold platforms to account with regard to their obligations to keep their users safe online. This includes, for the largest platforms, the obligation to risk assess their services and mitigate those risks to ensure they do not cause harm, including through their algorithms or recommender systems. Additionally, platforms are obliged to remove illegal content once it has been reported to them. Illegal content can include a wide variety of harms such as child sex abuse material, incitement to hatred, and financial fraud and scams.
The framework covers platforms such as social media, gaming, streaming services and online marketplaces.
All platforms have to protect the safety, security and privacy of children online. Specific obligations exist for platforms we have designated as video-sharing platform services to restrict video content that promotes eating and feeding disorders, self-harm and suicide, dangerous challenges, cyberbullying, content which incites hatred or violence on grounds of protected characteristics, terrorism and child sex abuse material. Platforms that allow adult content, such as pornography and extreme violence, must put in place age assurance to ensure children cannot see this content. Separately, we have designated several hosting service providers as exposed to terrorist content online and these providers have to take specific measures to protect against the dissemination of terrorist content. Our platform supervision team conducts proactive supervision with the online platforms based here to ensure compliance with all elements of the online safety framework. We handle reports from members of the public and our counterpart regulators across the EU through our user complaints team.
Recently, we have been engaged in supervision relating to the presidential election. This included meeting platforms to assess their election readiness, providing information packs to electoral candidates, which are prepared in conjunction with An Garda Síochána, as well as issuing guidelines to broadcasters on their coverage of the election. We have published research into various matters, including the online experience of electoral candidates in the general and local elections. As online safety is a whole-of-society issue, we work closely with a wide range of stakeholders, such as our youth advisory committee, which we regularly consult. We collaborate with regulators across Ireland, including our work with the digital regulators group and regulatory colleagues at EU and international level. In particular, we work closely with the European Commission on the regulation of the large platforms and we are working with it on some of its open investigations into these platforms.
Regardless of whether it is an online platform or a broadcaster, we want the public to benefit from the positive aspects of media, while also being better protected from its potential harms. We are an independent statutory agency. We engage with the companies we regulate through supervisory dialogue regarding their compliance.We take formal enforcement action, where appropriate, to protect the safety of users. We deliver media literacy initiatives that support users and inform the public about their rights online. We have developed educational materials that we shared with every secondary school in the country. There is a wide range of resources for parents, teachers and young people now available on our website, cnam.ie. In addition, we are launching a new nationwide campaign this week, in conjunction with the Department of Health, which aims to raise awareness about harmful content online and how to report it.
Our message to the committee and the public is that an coimisiún is here to hold regulated entities to account. To do so, we rely on information we can use for supervision, compliance and enforcement. We encourage anyone who has seen something online that is illegal or harmful to report it first to the platforms and then to us. Likewise, if people see or hear something on TV, radio or video on demand they think is against our code and rules, they should report it first to the provider and then to us. We have a contact centre available for members of the public to contact us by emailing usersupport@cnam.ie or by phone on 01 963 7755.
We are grateful to the committee and the Oireachtas for the support they have given us since our establishment. There has been significant work undertaken, especially with regard to online safety and the protection of children online. We are happy to take any questions on the progress we are making and our next steps as we continue to keep users safer online.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank both witnesses for their very comprehensive opening statements. I will open the floor. Members have seven minutes each. We have a speaking rota and Senator Comyn is first up.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in again. I welcome the vast majority of what they have presented, especially as regards the number of staff and the campaign they are going to be running. However, I am going to be honest that I am absolutely livid. It is not just me but parents, teachers and youth workers across the country. We are at our wits' end at what seems to be completely unregulated exposure online for children to the likes of pornography, violence, hate speech and the toxic ideologies of what has become known as the manosphere. It seems we are exposing an entire generation to this unregulated.
I was at a gender equality conference in Reykjavik recently, along with my colleague, Deputy Byrne. There was research mentioned there by Dr. Catherine Baker of DCU showing within 23 minutes of a young man going online for something completely innocuous - it could be to look up runners or a schoolbag - he is going be targeted with misogynistic and male-supremacist content. All it takes is 23 minutes for the algorithms to begin pulling young people into this world of misogyny, radicalisation and hate. The next time, obviously, it will be down to seconds. Yet, we listen to these platforms and allow them to say it is too complex to control or the company or situation is too big and too complex for them to tackle. These are the platforms which, within seconds of me searching for a holiday, will try to sell me flip-flops, so I do not accept it is credible that they cannot stop young people from being completely exposed to this kind of content as soon as they log on.
Do not get me started when it comes to the likes of hate speech or abuse online because if I had a euro for every time I have reported abuse, hate speech, slurs, insults, threats of violence and threats of sexual violence towards me online, I would be a very rich woman. Only one complaint has been upheld since I began here in February. There should definitely be tighter verification on the likes of actual accounts and sanctions for those who are putting up this kind of abuse.
There is lots to get through but to start, I would like to find out what concrete measures are currently in place to ensure platforms are actively preventing children accessing the likes of pornography and violent or hateful material. I am talking about what is in place right now, rather than what is planned.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
I thank the Senator. There is a lot to unpick in what she said and we agree with a lot of her concerns. I will start with concrete steps that are in place right now. Our online safety framework, the online safety code and the protection of minors guidelines have been in place since July of this year. Concretely, as a result of those, platforms have had to put in place age assurance in relation to pornography and extremely gratuitous violence. Concretely, we have seen X take steps to put in place age assurance since our code came into effect in July. Concretely, we have seen TikTok Lite not be able to launch in the market in Europe because of the addictive design nature of that particular product. We have seen Tumblr change its terms and conditions to not allow adult content since the code has come into full force and effect. We have received specific measures in relation to terrorist content from a number of the platforms and they now have to prohibit the harmful content I discussed, namely, eating and feeding disorders, self-harm, suicide, etc.
I will hand over to my colleague Dr. Evans on the enforcement and supervision we are taking and also in relation to supervision and enforcement at European level in relation to pornography platforms and our role in that. My colleague Ms Warren will then respond on gender-based violence, the manosphere and the work we are doing on that.
Dr. John Evans:
What Ms Hodnett outlined as part of our online safety framework is our online safety code, which has been fully in place since the summer just passed, and then the Digital Services Act. Ms Quill mentioned the Article 28 guidelines that were published during the summer. Article 28 is the article of the Digital Services Act that deals with the safety, privacy and protection of minors. We have these two tools. The online safety code applies to video-sharing platform services. Ms Hodnett spoke about, for example, the age verification measures that were required on X. As part of our supervision, we are looking into whether they are effective or not.
The other pillar in this area is Article 28. As I said, the guidance there was published in the summer. Members might have noticed that at the same time that this happened, the European Commission announced it was investigating four very large online platforms. These platforms in the EU offer pornographic services that have over 45 million users. Pornhub, for example, is one of those. We all have a concern about the type of age assurance or verification these platforms have in place. In other words, asking whether someone is older than 18 is just not adequate. These are at the core of these investigations. The Commission has opened up about ten investigations or so over the last year and a half or two years relating to the Digital Services Act. The four new investigations are concentrating on the impact on minors.
At the same time, there is the European Board for Digital Services, which is the board of the digital services co-ordinators, that is, Coimisiún na Meán and all the digital services co-ordinators in the other member states, sitting with the European Commission. At the time these investigations were announced, we also announced a co-ordinated action to deal with pornographic websites that fall below that 45 million threshold. As part of the early steps there, we are conducting a mapping exercise.
In fairness, there are very few of them in Ireland. We can only act on them if they are established here, which is why this network of digital service co-ordinators is important. We are relying on the Commission and other digital services co-ordinators to take action here.
What is new here is that we have this co-ordinated action to address this issue. Co-ordinated action was considered important as opposed to just concentrating on the biggest players because if you come down hard, in regulatory terms, on a few players, other users - in this instance, we are concerned about minors - will just move to other platforms. We needed this approach that addressed all the platforms at the same time. We are in the middle of that at the moment.
I will hand over to Ms Warren for the manosphere stuff.
Ms Tanya Warren:
We met the researchers behind that DCU Anti-Bullying Centre project when the research came out. We followed up directly with the platforms involved with that research as well. We had in-depth discussions with them, particularly around dispersion, filtering, algorithms delivering harmful content to young people to a large degree, and the measures they were taking to combat that. When you look at the online hate ecosystem overall, it is a complex area. The legislation points to illegal hate speech. It also points to gross and gratuitous violence and that being limited in terms of the online safety code. It is hugely contextual. There is a lot of content that is not illegal. For moderation teams, content creators and also for users, it is hard for them to try to navigate.
We have done a lot of research internally. We have done a deep dive into the manosphere to understand what that ecosystem looks like. They are very loosely connected communities online, buying into similar ideologies while still being very distinct in their own approaches. It goes from basic interaction in terms of misogyny leading up to incels, terrorist content and so on. Understanding that whole space has been really important for us. We are also about to launch a large-scale research project, looking at the impact of online hate on adults here in Ireland. We will obviously include minority groups, with a large focus on women and the experience of women. From talking to stakeholders, we know that women and minority groups are disproportionately affected by hate online and abuse online. That is well regarded in terms of the research. We will do our own piece of research.
We know that reporting fatigue is a big issue. Pretty much every stakeholder we have talked to has said that is a problem for them. We encourage reporting but going back to the context, understanding what actually manifests as illegal hate speech is something that is important for people and users rights, as well as empowering those users. We will publish guidance material on how to report illegal hate speech. We will point towards a little bit more user education in that area so that we can help users in that space.
There was a recent report on hotline.ie in 2024. It had over 900 notifications of xenophobia and racism and just 1% of those met the threshold for illegal hate speech. We can see where user education is really important there.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all of our witnesses for their work, which is exceptionally important. The key is that we are all trying to achieve the same thing. I was a member of the previous committee when we dealt at length, as Ms Quill will recall, with what became the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act. Obviously, there has been the Digital Services Act. I am quite encouraged by how Coimisiún na Meán has been set up and has developed and by a lot of the work that has been done.
The ultimate question for me is whether the situation for young people is any safer online now following the introduction of legislation nationally and at European level? In certain ways, I feel it is but as Senator Comyn outlined, the access to content and so on is still there. It still remains a very significant challenge. For us, there are a couple of questions as to what more we can do and where we need to go. I might ask Ms Hodnett first about the online safety codes and their introduction. I will ask her to be specific about the platforms she regarded as following the online safety codes but also to outline those where there have been problems.
The second question is about age verification. The witnesses will be aware of what has happened in the UK with regard to requirements for people to prove they are above a particular age. There is also the Australian approach where social media platforms have been banned for under-16s. I am conscious of the Taoiseach's remarks and I agree. We do not want a knee-jerk reaction to them but from the witnesses' experience and what has been happening in Australia, we can ask what we can do.
Ms Quill will remember our discussions on sanctions for some of the companies. There were some of us who favoured going beyond just fines and, in the case where companies deliberately allowed harmful material online, taking action to make individuals potentially liable. Do we need to revise that issue?
The geopolitical environment has changed and there is quite a pushback against regulation in this space. I do not believe that regulation and innovation are mutually exclusive. You need to get the balance right. Is the regulator experiencing any pushback, particularly from US companies, because of Europe's approach?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
I thank the Deputy for those questions. I will start with what has changed for children, is it safer now for them, age verification, and geopolitics. In terms of what has changed now for children, there are binding obligations in place under the online safety code. We hold the platforms to account in order to ensure they are complying with those binding obligations. They have to restrict content that is harmful to children, such as cyberbullying, eating and feeding disorders, self-harm, suicide and dangerous challenges. That was not the case before July of this year. If they are showing adult content such as extreme or gratuitous violence or pornography, they have to ensure there are age assurances in place.
It has changed. We had to write to X to remind it of those obligations when they came into place in July of this year. X then took steps to put in place age assurance in relation to that and agreed that self-declaration of-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the question of who is responding, X is clearly the company. Does Ms Hodnett believe it is taking these issues seriously or has it a lot more to do?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We cannot comment on any particular case or company in relation to this but we are engaging in supervisory dialogue - Mr. Moroney is director of supervision and Dr. Evans leads our supervision and enforcement division - with all of the platforms in this space. The committee will notice we opened a formal investigation into X last week under the Digital Services Act. We hold the platforms to account if we consider they may be falling short of their regulatory obligations.
In terms of what has changed for children, there is the need for platforms-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that. Are there any platforms, apart from X, about which the regulator has serious concerns?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We engage with all of the platforms. I will hand over to Dr. Evans on what we do there. If we consider that behavioural changes are not coming about as a result of that supervisory dialogue, we open investigations, either by ourselves or together with the European Commission. We are supporting the European Commission on a number of investigations into platforms, including Meta and TikTok. In particular, we have concerns about harmful algorithms, which goes back to the point that was raised by Senator Comyn. Platforms have to risk assess the harms cause by their algorithms, in particular, and put mitigations in place. These include mitigations that address gender-based violence.
All platforms have to protect the privacy, security and safety of minors online. Since July of this year, we have been very involved in drafting guidelines, together with the European Commission, as to what that should look like. We are addressing issues such as grooming and other matters online, including the harmful effects of recommender systems.
In terms of geopolitics, it is quite simple for us. We apply the rules as they fall to us. We have outlined our online safety framework, the EU terrorist content online regulation, TCOR, the DSA and the online safety code. For any platform that has its EU headquarters here in Ireland, they are the rules that it has to follow regardless of whether it is from America, China or Europe itself. We also understand that there is a lot of digital regulation in this space. We supported the European Commission's move last week when it published proposals to simply the digital regulatory regime, particularly for small- and medium-sized enterprises that may find it more difficult. They are not taking shortcuts on safety but there might be opportunities for simplification with overlapping rules in different pieces in legislation. It could be dealt with once in one piece of legislation.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am conscious of time. What are Ms Hodnett's thoughts on Australia, the UK and their experiences, and what other sanctions we might need?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We are about to enter into a co-operation agreement with the Australian safety commission. We are learning about what work it is doing to put in place a social media delay or ban from December of next year.
Age verification is a requirement under our code under the Digital Services Act. Platforms are obliged to apply their terms and conditions and we expect them to do so. Whether the age is 13 or 16, the platforms have to apply those terms and conditions.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If we do not bring in a ban, could Ms Hodnett see us moving to a situation like the UK's? This goes to Dr. Evans's point about it not just being about self-declaration and saying whether you are over 18. People have to prove they are a particular age by means of a passport or digital identifier.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We already have that requirement. If a platform chooses to have adult content, self-declaration is not sufficient under the terms and conditions. The platform must use age estimation, age inference or age verification. With regard to what more we could do in this space and any future legislative developments or considerations, I might hand over to the Department.
Ms Tríona Quill:
In general, with the gaps, you could look at whether more needs to be done in legislation and in enforcement. On enforcement, even though this is frustrating for people, it is relatively new. It will take time. We saw that with the Data Protection Commission and others. It does take time but it can be very effective. With regard to legislation, there is more coming all the time. There is a new Act on child sexual abuse material coming down the line from Europe. There will also be a digital fairness Act, which will look at things like dark patterns, loot boxes and so on. The audiovisual media services directive is being reviewed and there are likely to be more legislative proposals there. We are conscious that the environment is changing the whole time and that there is a need for more legislation.
On age verification, the Government recognises that, even though the onus is on the platforms, it would be good for the Government to put something in place that respected data privacy. This would be made available to verify, rather than just estimate, that a person was 18 years of age without unnecessary data being shared with platforms. The platforms would simply get a tick. We are doing work with the Office of the Chief Government Information Officer in that regard at the moment.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am conscious of time. Mr. Barry Lowry has come before the Committee on Artificial Intelligence around some of this. When MyGovID is rolled out, could a situation be envisaged in which there would be a requirement for that to be used? The State would act as an independent agency for verification. We could use a blockchain enabler or something to-----
Ms Tríona Quill:
It is likely. There is legislation coming down the line in relation to how that will be governed. The important thing is to make it available. It may not be the only method available. From a data protection perspective, making that an absolute requirement and the only thing that can be used could be problematic. It would be the intention to make it available. It could certainly underpin stronger protections for children if that was available to completely verify that someone trying to access certain content was over the age of 18.
I am conscious of time but I will just mention the digital age of majority. We are looking at that. There is a lot of interest in it in Europe at the moment. In particular, there are calls for something to be done at European level to avoid fragmentation because there are different approaches in different places. The likes of the review of the audiovisual media services directive provides an opportunity to bring something forward in that regard. As the Deputy will know, the European Commission has undertaken to set up an expert group to look at that. We are awaiting developments.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do I take it that it is on the agenda for our Presidency?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry for going over time.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is all right. Two of the clocks at the back of the room are not working, so it is easy to get distracted as regards time, but the two at the front of the room are working.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Department's opening statement says, "It must be said that the first responsibility to keep users safe online lies with the platforms." I think everybody in this room would agree that self-regulation is no regulation and that strong leadership is required from all of us in Ireland as a collective to ensure regulations are in place to protect online users. The Department might want to comment on that in a moment. I have no issue with it. Like my colleague earlier and everybody else, I have fallen victim to online misinformation. A far-right YouTube video about me has been going around for several months. It is about two statues that were erected in Drogheda by Meath County Council and a Tidy Towns group. If you watched the video, you would think I had erected them myself. There is severe hate and misinformation directed at me in that video. It has been reported umpteen times - I do not know how many - and it still has not been taken down. My experience in that is not unique. We have all been affected.
I have a question for the Department. Ms Quill made reference to gaps in legislation, how enforcement was relatively new and how legislation was coming down the line. Do we have to wait for EU law to be in place to bring in sufficient laws to tackle blatant lies, misinformation and hate speech online?
Ms Tríona Quill:
Mr. Hempenstall will come in on the detail regarding misinformation. It is important to note that the likes of the Digital Services Act are regulations at European level that involve what is called maximised harmonisation. Anything a member state might want to bring in will be assessed by the European Commission to make sure it is in compliance with existing European law. That limits what member states can do to some extent. It is not a completely blank sheet. Disinformation is addressed under the Digital Services Act. It does not operate at the level of an individual instance of disinformation, but platforms have to take measures to assess risk and tackle disinformation overall.
Mr. Seamus Hempenstall:
In April, we published the national counter disinformation strategy. The aim behind that was not so much to introduce new measures but to catalogue and set out all the actions that different stakeholders were taking to counter disinformation. A good portion of the strategy is devoted to setting out the regulatory measures being implemented by different independent agencies to make sure that platforms fulfil their regulatory obligations in relation to online disinformation. In addition, a large part of the strategy is about supporting resilience in the population, that is, giving people the knowledge and skills to discern disinformation and misinformation from actual misinformation. This helps people to participate more fully in society and to make their own decisions. It would be inappropriate for a Government strategy to say that particular content was disinformation while other content was not. Platforms have to fulfil their obligations and regulators have to enforce them. If we help people through education and training in media literacy, digital literacy and all of the other literacies, it helps them to come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions about what is or is not disinformation. That goes to how disinformation, as a facet of online safety, is a whole-of-society issue. We cannot regulate it away. To protect our children, we can support parents so that they can have those discussions and open conversations with children. They will then know where their kids are going online and what they are doing. Kids can then benefit from all the connectivity that is there. It is a whole-of-society issue. That is the strategy. We are monitoring the implementation of the strategy. We have a steering committee and will be publishing updates on progress on the actions.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are there timelines and metrics set out with regard to the implementation of the strategy or will it just be looked at as it evolves?
Mr. Seamus Hempenstall:
That will be ongoing with regard to regulation. It was not the place of the strategy to tell regulators what to do because they are independent. As Coimisiún na Meán has pointed out, supervision and enforcement are ongoing activities. We want to spend the €1.1 million we got in the budget next year so that the research and support for media literacy and fact-checking can get under way. There are nine commitments and something like 36 actions in the strategy. I cannot remember if there are timeframes for each one.
We are trying to put in goals and milestones or at least solicit those.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To move it forward.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, we spoke a bit about that last week.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is really positive. Outside social media accounts are perhaps trying to influence social media users in Ireland. These are accounts from outside our jurisdiction. What practical steps are in place to try to tackle that?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
There is foreign interference in particular elections in Ireland but, in general, in relation to issues, this is something we take very seriously. The Deputy will note that X, just last week, put in place measures to show what country an account is located in. Many of the platforms have taken steps in this space in regard to enhanced transparency due to concern about foreign information manipulation and interference, FIMI. I might hand over to Mr. Moroney to talk about disinformaiton and elections and FIMI, and if there is time, Ms Warren to talk about authentic accounts.
Mr. Wayne Moroney:
When it comes to the very large online platforms there is a requirement, under election guidelines, that they take significant steps to mitigate the risk from foreign interference and manipulation. Where they choose not to follow through on those guidelines, they then need to prove to the European Commission that their own measures are sufficiently matched to those. There is a set of rules in place that can be measured by their own data, or by subsequent escalations, that look to mitigate those issues for elections specifically.
Outside of elections, it is as much as Ms Hodnett said. The behaviour of people online can be addressed through the transparency of the content and what people are seeing, much like the actions X has taken. The Internet is global, so people from anywhere can post anything and it can largely be seen in other countries. Where there are local restrictions, there may be measures to stop that, in adherence to local laws, but we have to accept the Internet is global. When it comes to elections, there are specific measures but for regular content there is not so much there at the moment.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses are very welcome. My remarks today are twofold. They are, first, as a politician and, second, as a father of four children who have significant online exposure given the world we currently live in. From my perspective, I would describe the people of my generation as "digital immigrants", in the sense that the online world was not part and parcel of our everyday lives until we get to our late teens or 20s. We are learning on the job about the various ways to navigate through the online world. Our younger people, particularly those who are aged 20 or younger, are all digital natives in the sense that they know no different. Since they were very young, they have had access to iPads, phones and digital technology. The positives far outweigh the negatives. The technological advancements that have been made are incredible. We cannot lose sight of that in this debate because there are so many more positives than negatives.
The problem or challenge is that the negatives are catastrophic in the sense they can destroy families and individuals. Coimisiún na Meán has a very responsible role of trying to protect me, my children and family. I cannot do it all on my own, so we need the support of Coimisiún na Meán and the Department to provide guidance and legislative supports to protect my children and every child in the State.
I will begin my questions on the different social media companies. I do not need to know the specifics. How regularly does Coimisiún na Meán meet the social media companies, the likes of Twitter, Facebook, Meta and TikTok?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Coimisiún na Meán have regularised meetings with the platforms or are they ad hoc?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
They are regularised meetings the supervision teams have with the platforms and we meet them on an ad hoc basis as well, where someone has requested a meeting.
On the Deputy's points as a parent, as a parent, I hear him. We have educational tools for busy parents on our website to show them what to do if something happens to their child online. We also have a youth advisory committee that advises us - as digital natives - on how best to get right the balance between all the positives the Deputy outlined in regard to their digital lives online and trying to restrict the harms and make it a safer space for them. That is something we are very conscious of. I will hand over to Dr. Evans now to talk about the details of our supervision.
Dr. John Evans:
We have 15 designated very large online platforms based in Ireland. There are 25 of those platforms in Europe and we have 15 of those 25 based here. The big platforms are the ones the Deputy knows. In addition, we have those we call "below threshold". Over the past year or so, we have engaged with approximately 125 of these other platforms but the nature of our engagement is different. For the very large online platforms, we have, essentially, three supervision teams that man-mark each of those platforms and have a regular, cyclical calendar of engagement with those platforms, as well as engaging with them on specific issues as they arise.
For the below-threshold platforms, we are evolving our policy there. After we get past that 45 million threshold, there are some which are recognisable household names and therefore very significant, and potentially risky.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the nature of those engagements? Is there a set agenda? Are issues like cyberbullying or GDPR being discussed? For example, I am on TikTok, Facebook, Twitter or X or whatever it is called, and I put a post and get a derogatory comment back from "user542817" who is afraid of their life to put their name to that profile. Yet, if I met that person in the street, they would be touching cloth, as they say down our way, because I am 6 ft 3 in. I am a big man and they would be afraid of their lives. Behind the "user542817" profile, or whatever it is, they are big, brave people and think they can say anything. If I report that to the social media company, does Coimisiún na Meán ever get line of sight of that? I am very fortunate in terms of the social media side of things but if I get an odd comment that is very disrespectful or hateful and I report it, I just get a message back saying, "Absolutely, thanks a million, on you go, nothing to see here, good luck." Does Coimisiún na Meán ever get line of sight of when an individual makes a complaint against one of these companies?
Dr. John Evans:
I can respond to that. Coimisiún na Meán has a contact centre and we often speak to individuals. Since the start, we have had about 3,000 contacts to the contact centre and between 30% and 40% of those are related to the individual's experience online. It needs to be remembered that our online safety framework is set up in such a way that it is essentially a systemic regulation. If somebody is complaining about some piece of content they have seen online, what we will tell them to do, and we will advise them on how to do it, is to flag that content with the platform. People can flag the content with the platform. If it is illegal content or against the terms and conditions, then the platform should take that down.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What if the platform does not take it down, which happens regularly enough?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I totally accept where Dr. Evans is coming from. The challenge, however, is that if you are on a fast-paced online environment and "user542817" says you are a fraud, a liar or a big fat whatever, and uses that sort of language, and you report that, by the time you go through all the stages, that user will have moved on to the next thing.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is a challenge. I am conscious of the time, so I will just-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Everybody is different in that something that might be water off a duck's back to me could be very upsetting or triggering for somebody else, depending on their personal circumstances. I am really conscious of time so I am sorry for cutting across Dr. Evans.
I note Coimisiún na Meán's numbers have increased and will increase further, which is really welcome. In terms of the world we are in today, in 2025 going into 2026, through Coimisiún na Meán, the Government and the tech companies, there is space for something to be done on the community and educational sides. We do education brilliantly in this country.
I know efforts have been made. In Fianna Fáil, we had our parenting in the digital age strategy. The response would blow your mind in terms of how uninformed myself and others are. We think we know the technology side of things but we do not have a clue. My last question or point is that there needs to be a revving up or an intensity around that engagement between community, education, be it primary and secondary school, and various Government agencies and the witnesses. I do not have the answer for them, but there is a lot of work to be done in this space. As I said at the outset, my whole thing is I want to protect myself and my colleagues, but I want to protect my children, my family and my children's children. This is not going away. I know there is no one-size-fits-all approach, but I implore the witnesses to do whatever they can in that space, particularly on the education side of things.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We hear the Deputy on that space. That is why we developed educational tools for secondary school, which we shared with every secondary school in the country. We are now working with Webwise as part of Oide on developing educational tools for fifth and sixth classes, which are currently ready to go for next year. We are also running a campaign at the moment, which we just launched this year, to make people aware of the importance of reporting exactly that content the Deputy set out. It is important to us because we can use those reports as part of our supervision work and escalating it to an enforcement issue, which we have done. We shared a number of complaints. I think we received 97 complaints that we shared with the European Commission that led to a formal investigation in relation to one of the platforms. Although there is reporting fatigue out there, when we get notice of those, after going through the system Dr. Evans outlined, if you still did not get the resolution you wanted or hoped for, we want to hear about it so we can use that in our enforcement and supervision on the platforms.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will move on to Senator Mullen, but before we do, there is a chance of a Seanad vote in the next while. I do not know if one of the Deputies would be willing to step in if I have to leave the Chair. Deputy Byrne has indicated he will.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses. I am not asking questions as a digital native, but more a digital occasional visitor. My passport seems to be constantly expired. I want to ask a question but I do not know who to pose this to. I would like to know whether, right now, it is easier for a minor to engage in online gambling - to put a bet on a horse online - or to access adult pornography. Is it easier for a minor to buy a pair of headphones or to access adult content? Can anybody tell me right now what the state of play is in that regard?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
I will start with that. In relation to our online safety code, which covers adult content, which is pornography or extremely gratuitous violence, if a platform allows that in its terms and conditions, it cannot show that to anyone without making sure that they are not a minor. Self-declaration is not sufficient. They have to use an age verification or age estimation-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Let me stop Ms Hodnett right there.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the age assurance, Ms Hodnett covered some ground there earlier. She mentioned age verification, age estimation and a third term.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the third term?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Which of those is the strictest and the hardest to get around?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is the gold standard.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Right now, age verification is where you want to be if you want to make as absolutely sure as you can, in this world where nothing is ever absolutely sure, that a child cannot access pornography.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As things stand, it has been said to us today that the onus is on platforms, but they have the leeway to choose what way they go about this. Is that not correct?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Why is that so? Ms Hodnett mentioned the onus, but I asked her a practical question. Right now in Ireland, if a child or person under 18 - I do not know how we define it for the purpose of all our shared understanding in this room - wants to gamble online, Ms Hodnett and I know they will not be able to do it because they have to have some access to a credit card or money. Is that not correct? What will they have to do in terms of age verification for that purpose? Will it simply come down to their ability to carry out a financial transaction?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, the question I am asking is that if a child wants to gamble this minute, what obstacles is he or she going to come up against? I know they will have a problem having a credit card.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How do we make sure it does not happen?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Go with me on this. I am trying to find this out and I am not hearing the answer. This minute, is it easier for a child to access adult pornography online than it is for them to carry out a gambling transaction or indeed to buy a pair of headphones?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think we know it is easier. A child would need a credit card or something to buy a pair of headphones, whereas they can access online pornography right now that is free, for example. All the coimisiún is in a position to do at the moment is to say that certain platforms are under an obligation to engage in age assurance. We have not caught up in practice.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This is what I want to get to - privacy. I have just come back from the Lanzarote committee meeting in Moldova, where any number of problems face those. The Lanzarote Convention, as Ms Hodnett knows, is about protecting children from child sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation. What keeps coming up, apart from obvious problems like trusted person abuse and abusers going abroad, is technology, artificial intelligence, the ability to generate online imagery that is pornographic. What keeps coming up and they are anxious to pursue - certainly I think there was a consensus when anything was said about it - is age verification. They are not talking about age assurance or letting platforms choose among a menu of different options.
Privacy comes up as a problem, but surely it should be our shared understanding that adults' right to access content of this nature is secondary and must always be secondary to the overriding imperative of protecting children from abuse. I do not want to hear about privacy considerations. Adult access to pornography - it is a social problem - is something that requires another kind of response, but child protection has to come first. Would Ms Hodnett agree with me that we are not there yet? It seems to me that while platforms have leeway in this area as to what mechanism they choose, it is still the case that a child can more easily access pornography than to gamble or buy a set of headphones.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We take child safety very seriously at Coimisiún na Meán. Children have rights to privacy, security and safety. If you take a child-centred approach, you have to look at all of their rights in this space. Good movements have been made in relation to the CSAM regulation, which was a concern for a long time in relation to privacy concerns. For adult content, the current mandate is age estimate and age assurance, leaving the choice to the platforms, as the Senator outlined. The European Commission guidelines do require age verification in relation to adult content in this space. Platforms are moving to put in place age verification measures as well.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is the European Commission that requires it.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Why is Coimisiún na Meán not going in just as strongly?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
Our code came first with age estimation or age verification. Then the European Commission guidelines came after that, which we developed together with the European Commission. In terms of our work, we are now working on supervising the platforms, including co-ordinated action in relation to pornography platforms. I might hand over to my colleague, Dr. John Evans, who might describe it.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Hodnett. I apologise - one has to go in close to get precision.
Dr. John Evans:
As I was explaining earlier, the two pillars of the online safety code and Digital Services Act are complementary. What we have control of here is the online safety code. That covers video-sharing platform services. The concerning ones are the ones that would still permit pornography and gratuitous violence. As a result of our code, Tumblr changed its terms and conditions so it does not permit that kind of content anymore. X has made the choice to continue allowing that kind of content and, as a result of our code, now has to put in place age assurance measures.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
By what mechanism will they do that?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It seems to me that we are very-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Senator is running out of time.
Dr. John Evans:
If someone has been a member of a platform for a long time, then he or she is clearly an adult. I wish to come back to the role of European regulation in this regard because other digital services co-ordinators in the European Commission are important. Ms Hodnett mentioned the co-ordinated action on porn. Four cases were opened against the largest porn providers. It is easy enough for us to say that it is easier for a minor to access porn than it is to gamble. It just is. No one here thinks that self-declaration when people visit these websites is sufficient. That is why they are the subject of enforcement actions.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there any awareness or can anyone help me with-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Senator might have to come back to that question in the next round because we are way over time.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sorry. I am colour blind; I did not know whether the clock was red or black.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sure we will have another round. We have a visitor today, Deputy Keira Keogh. She is here as a non-member. I will hand over to her now.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am an imposter. I am passionate about this issue. Senator Mullen and I do not always agree on everything but-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is news to me.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have slightly different viewpoints on certain things but we are aligned on this. I respect his sense of alarm, emergency and panic because that is what has brought me here today. I am not sensing it yet. I know we are all on the same page and want to get to where we are going but the fact is that, at the moment, children's right to safety is not being protected. Whatever about their right to privacy and connection, we are not keeping them safe. All of us know that so many children, definitely children under the age of 16 and even some under 13, witnessed Charlie Kirk's murder coming up on their “For You” pages. That was the first time many parents realised that they did not know what their kids were looking at online. We know kids as young as eight or nine are seeing violent pornography on a daily basis. We are not seeing children's safety being protected.
In October 2024, we adopted our safety code and by July 2025, age verification was supposed to be in place. It is not in place, however. We might have age assurances and many different companies say things are improving for age estimation, but all of us in the room know it is a lot more than 95 complaints or whatever. Kids up and down the country are accessing bullying, misinformation, pornography, hate speech, promotion of eating disorders and suicide ideation every day in their bedrooms and late at night. In a survey Fine Gael recently launched, over 2,200 parents responded and said they feel grossly unprepared, do not trust the media companies to have our kids’ best interests at heart and, unfortunately, do not have faith in us to provide robust regulation. I know there are cases ongoing with X, but has there been any other enforcement since July? I know Coimisiún na Meán is carrying out supervision and I am sure the witnesses are all doing their best, but where are we at? We had our safety code in October 2024 and age verification was supposed to be in place in July. It is now November. What enforcement have we taken, bar those enforcement cases against X?
Dr. John Evans:
As part of the European Board for Digital Services, we are involved in that work I mentioned on the co-ordinated action on porn. The European Commission opened those four investigations into the large online platforms. They are the likes of Pornhub and so on. There are below-threshold providers as well. As I was explaining earlier, the reason we need to go for both of them at the same time in a co-ordinated way is that users, including minors, will just move from one to the other. As part of this co-ordinated action on porn across all 27 digital services co-ordinators in the EU, there is a mapping being done of the sites. I might pass over to my colleague, Mr. Moroney, to speak in more detail about that.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Keogh will get her time back but I have to leave. I am obliged by another commitment to be absent from the meeting for a time. Is there any objection to me nominating Deputy Malcolm Byrne to take the Chair? Is that agreed? Agreed.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Keogh will still have her time. The witnesses can proceed.
Mr. Wayne Moroney:
With regard to the co-ordinated action, we have just completed the mapping stage. It is important we conducted that because we need to identify the services that are located in Ireland so that we can regulate and understand what they do and provide. Based on the initial mapping, we can see what they are putting out to the public. That stage has been completed and we are moving now towards the engagement stage, where we understand what information we want from them. We are doing this in a co-ordinated way with the other digital services co-ordinators. Subsequent to that-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry to interrupt but it is in the interest of time. I appreciate that we are co-ordinating with other states and I understand that to get real progress, we have to move at an EU level. My question relates to the enforcement taking place in Ireland, however. Have we only taken an enforcement case against X, or are there cases against other platforms too? We know there is no robust age verification in place yet across the 15 platforms that are based in Ireland. We do not need to wait for co-ordinated action for that. That is my understanding.
Dr. John Evans:
In respect of enforcement action generally, we opened our first own initiative investigation two weeks ago. We are also involved in two of the European Commission's investigations into TikTok because it is established here. As a new enough regulator with new enough legislation, we have this pipeline that starts off with complaints and supervision activity, which then moves on to investigations in very serious cases or where we cannot get something resolved through behavioural change. We are at a level of maturity now where we are opening our own investigations. I hope, with the resources we have, to have a caseload of about six to eight open formal investigations by this time next year.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If the aim is to have six to eight investigations, is Coimisiún na Meán then happy with the age verification measures of seven of the 15 companies based in Ireland at this point in time? Why are we just looking at seven?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thought they had to comply by July.
Dr. John Evans:
-----is X because it permits pornography and gratuitous violence. Due to its decision to allow those, it must have effective age assurance measures in place. What that means then is that we have to look at them to see how effective they are. That is the process we are in the middle of at the moment.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the others? If we put X aside, what about the other 14?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was Coimisiún na Meán satisfied that any of the other 14 companies had put age verification in place? For example, our digital age of consent is 16. Some platforms allow users from 13 years of age. Aside from X, can we say that we are happy with any of those 14 companies at the moment that they are robustly following through on their obligation to have age verification in place?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not even talking about adult content. Across the board, they were supposed to have age verification in place by July.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it just for adult content?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
For example, people are not supposed to have a TikTok account until they are aged 13. Should TikTok not have a verification process in place since July?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
It is not obliged to do so. It must ensure it applies its terms and conditions. If it says it is safe for a 13-year-old but there are users aged far less than 13, then it is not applying its terms and conditions. It is obliged to take steps in order to ensure that, but it does not amount to age verification.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have one final question in my remaining minute. I am sorry if I seem angry; I am just worried about this. It is clear that if we only have the ability to tackle companies that have pornography on their sites, then we are a long way from where we need to be. What help does Coimisiún na Meán need in terms of resources and legislation so that we can protect our minors as quickly as possible, especially when it comes to the companies based here in Ireland? What does it need to happen in the next legislative period?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
Our regulatory regime is new. It will restrict harmful, illegal and adult content. It needs a chance to bed down as well. We continue to review this space. We engage with the Department as to what additional measures are required in order to keep children safe online and whether this should be done at an EU level so that it is hitting all the platforms that Irish children use, not just the ones that are based here, even though the majority of them are based in Ireland. I might hand over to Ms Quill to speak about the work going on regarding age verification considerations.
Ms Tríona Quill:
There is discussion going on at European level at the moment concerning the digital majority age. While there are differences of opinion as to whether that should be 16, 15, 13 or whatever, there is widespread support at European level.
That was made clear to the European Commission at the recent telecoms Council meeting that something should be embedded at European level in law to put a minimum age in place. If that were done, it would provide a basis on which age verification would have to apply to whatever age is agreed. I mentioned earlier that the audio-visual media services directive, which is the European legislation on which the online safety code is based, is currently being reviewed. It is likely that new proposals will be brought forward in the second half of next year during Ireland's Presidency. That is a potential avenue through which something of that kind could be done.
Dr. John Evans:
I assure members, it is not just about age verification and age assurances. That is not the only area where protections are in place to ensure the safety of minors. There are also recommender systems, for example. Article 28 of the DSA deals with minor protection. The guidance has in place a list of what a platform should do to mitigate the different kinds of risks to minors, for example, moving away from pornography and gratuitous violence and other kinds of content that may be bullying, dieting content, rabbit-hole effect, and similar things. The platform is supposed to assess what risk its service presents to different categories of youth. A 12- to 14-year-old is very different to a 16- to 18-year-old. The platforms need to be able to tailor that experience through their recommender system for that. I assure the Deputy that the age verification and assurance debate is not the only area where measures are in place.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that. I will finish on this. If they were working correctly with the recommender algorithm systems, the number of children who saw Charlie Kirk's murder would not have happened in the summer. We know that is not working. I did not focus on that because I only had enough time for one question, but we know the algorithms are recommending things on a daily basis still. They are not doing what they should do either.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can come back to that. We can do rounds of three minutes.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will follow on from Deputy Keogh's comments. I am not an algorithm person or anything like that, but my daughter is ten years of age and she has TikTok. I know all of her friends have TikTok. Maybe that is a failure by me as a parent, but that is the reality. My children showed me the Charlie Kirk video. There is a problem here and it is bigger than we think. There is a serious issue in this regard. Have social media companies been fined or sanctioned for breaching age verification guidance? Has TikTok been fined for allowing a ten-year-old or a nine-year-old use its app?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
There is an ongoing investigation into TikTok by the European Commission that we are supporting. There are concerns raised as part of that around the harmful rabbit-hole effects and how the recommender system can push harmful content. TikTok is obliged to protect the privacy, security and safety of children. It is obliged to take measures. While it may not be the hard-eight verification measures we are discussing, TikTok is obliged to take measures to ensure it is applying its terms and conditions. TikTok minimum age of use is 13-years-old. TikTok is expected to use age inference to infer that the Deputy's child, for example, is less that the age of 13.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms Hodnett can appreciate that, for a father, a child might show him something he or she may think is AI but is actually real because there are algorithms working behind on the content that the ten-year-old is looking at. It is great for me because she is a big supporter and she always likes all my posts. She is on it but that is not right. I will move on because I am conscious of time.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We mandate in the online safety code that all the platforms must have parental controls in place that should be easy to use and easy to find. We have guides on our website about how to access the parental controls and how to report illegal content. The parental controls require things like time limits, so children are not on too long, but also restrictions on whose content a child can see and who can see a child's content. Guidelines also address issues of grooming because there is a concern in relation to grooming with children encountering strangers online for sextortion or otherwise.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have only 40 seconds left. It is really interesting to talk about guidelines. Fianna Fáil did a parenting in the digital age survey recently. We had over 1,000 responses from parents right around the country. I will quote some statistics from what they have said. This is not coming from me, this is what parents said. Over 80% of respondents are concerned about their child's phone use. The top concerns they have are excessive screen time, exposure to inappropriate content, exposure to harmful content, cyberbullying and any mental health impacts. Over 75% of parents support mobile phone bans in schools, believe it or not. Over 33% of parents surveyed never talk or have spoken to their children about social media use. These are just the honest responses we got back. Over 50% have never accessed any supports, resources or training to help with digital parenting. That is over half of the respondents. I accept there are guidelines but they are not working their way through and that is a massive challenge. Finally, and the most telling thing here, is that over 90% of those surveyed say they would be interested in attending parent workshops or resources. Parents want help. We need help because we are digital immigrants. That puts a lot of responsibility and pressure on the Department and Coimisiún na Meán but we need their support and we need that engagement between them, the school communities, State agencies and An Garda Síochána. We need that help and we need that support. We need to understand that this is not just an issue. This is probably one of the biggest issues this country is going to face in terms of our younger people and the impacts it can have for the next generation. It is absolutely massive.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will leave that as a statement. Does Deputy Keogh have any final question?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Always, if I have the opportunity. Regarding the blueprint for an EU verification app, it has released two versions and it is encouraging states to trial it. Has the Government any plans to trial the blueprint age verification app?
Ms Tríona Quill:
The work under way on the Government's digital wallet uses the same protocols. Some member states are not quite ready with their digital wallet in terms of technical work. The app was made available but the Government Chief Information Officer is using all the same protocols so it is getting to the same place. That work is under way.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I started on the issue o protecting minors online but I would love us to get to a point - and I do not know if it will ever be possible - where it is just verification online across the board so we do not have User32654 with no picture profile spreading hate or misinformation. Do the witnesses think we can get to that point in the next decade? We must have verified information to open a Revolut account and even Tinder is looking for verification these days. Do the witnesses think we will get to that point online in general at any point soon?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would the app we are using for social protection not counteract that?
Ms Tríona Quill:
The intention around the Government's digital wallet is that personal information will not be shared with the platforms. A signal will go back to the platforms; a tick which states, "Yes, this user is over 18 years old", but it is not giving personal information with it. That has a lot of advantages from a data protection perspective but it means it is not a basis for verifying name and profile, etc. There would be concerns for a lot of people with platforms having a lot of personal data about citizens and the public, so there are challenges there.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Those third-party apps would definitely be my preference as well, and I think most people's. That is the point we need to get to down the line if we are to have any hope of combatting misinformation, abuse, etc., online so that anybody cannot just open thousands of accounts and have 500 different user names, etc.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are waiting for Senator Evanne Ní Chuilinn to take the Chair. I have just stepped in temporarily. Shall I ask my question now or does Deputy Carrigy want to take his take his time allotment now? I have one question.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have only one point.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, go ahead.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and I were on the previous committee that dealt with the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill. We pushed for the Online Safety Commissioner position within Coimisiún na Meán. I am quite simple about this. I mentioned to Ms Quill, when she was in last week, something that I cannot get my head around. I am a parent, someone who has been personally abused online because of my position and threats have been made to my kids. Luckily, I went the route of the courts system, and had to push very hard for a couple of years to get a conviction, only for somebody to be given a suspended sentence because the courts do not care too much about politicians, to be quite honest. Why can we not put in minimum ages for social media accounts for children? We are talking about it. It was mentioned when we discussed the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill. The Minister said we would wait to see what the EU was doing. We forged ahead with a few other groundbreaking things in this country ahead of other countries instead of waiting.
We cannot wait any longer. I do not care about data protection or all of these other things. It is about the protection of our kids. This is the biggest issue our kids face. By not doing something and not being more proactive about it, we are letting down a generation. I am not being personal, but we just need to do it, or our kids will suffer for years to come. They are suffering already; I see it. I am so strong about this, as other members are, but I just do not understand why four years after we passed that Bill, we are still thinking about it.
Ms Tríona Quill:
I know the Deputy wants it done in Ireland rather than at European level, but there are a lot of advantages in having it within European law. It gives us a firmer grounding for doing everything around it. There are advantages to having a consistent approach across Europe in relation to it. We are looking at it. As well as talking to European counterparts, we intend, in advance of Ireland's Presidency in the coming period, to have an engagement with younger people on some key issues and to hear directly from them. The voice of parents is important, but we need to hear directly from young people as well in relation to this matter. That will be an opportunity to do that and to feed into Ireland's Presidency in the second half of next year, when this will be the sort of issue that will feature strongly on that agenda.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
I will follow up on Ms Quill's point. The European Commission is looking at this. It will have an expert report delivered on it, as requested by President von der Leyen. As Ms Quill outlined, the Council is looking at it, as part of the Jutland declaration, and the European Parliament is also looking at it on its own initiative.
I will add that we are taking and have taken a number of steps to protect children online. The Online Safety Code is now in place. That requires the restriction of cyberbullying, eating and feeding disorders, self-harm, suicide, dangerous challenges and child sex abuse material, which will require parental controls and time limits as to how long a child is spending online. There are also restrictions on who can contact a child to try to address grooming issues as well. That, and the protection of minors under the Digital Services Act, with more detailed guidelines in place since July, are being supervised by us. We are not waiting for any further measures. We are taking steps now to try to protect children. We agree with the Deputy that it is a huge concern.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have a great tendency in this country to produce reports about reports about reports, and wait for reports on something we know is a problem, instead of dealing with it. My only fear is, in the meantime, by us not dealing with it, we are exposing tens of thousands of children to a lot of things we heard about here today, such as bullying and false information. We know most of what is there is factually incorrect.
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We are not waiting for further reports on obligations under the Online Safety Code or the Digital Services Act. I will hand over to my colleague, Dr. Evans, who will set this out. We supervise the platforms and meet them regularly to see what they are doing in relation to their obligations. They are obliged to prohibit that in their terms and conditions and to apply their terms and conditions. There is regular supervisory dialogue. Where we consider that a platform is not complying with its obligations, and we are not seeing behavioural change, we are escalating that to enforcement. It is relatively new, so it will take time for the enforcement cases to build in the pipeline, but that is what is happening at the moment.
As I said, we have seen X introduce age-assurance measures, since we adopted the Online Safety Code. We have seen Tumblr remove the ability to have adult content from its terms and conditions. We have seen TikTok Lite, which would have been quite an addictive product, not proceed within the EU as a result of regulatory measures. There are changes happening. I agree with the Deputy these are happening more slowly than any of us would like to see. I will hand over to Dr. Evans on supervision and enforcement.
Dr. John Evans:
I have said a couple of times, and Ms Hodnett said it again, that the change on X is important. It has made a decision to continue to allow pornography and gratuitous violence on its website. It is not against its terms and conditions. That means it has to put in place effective age-assurance measures. We are looking at those now and whether or not they will be effective. If we do not think they are effective and we find X is non-compliant, there is potential for a significant fine.
I talked a little about the pornography stuff, the four cases that are open at European Commission level and the co-ordinated action that is being taken by the digital services co-ordinators to enforce Article 28 of the DSA. Under that, where there is inappropriate content, appropriate age assurance and verification measures, in certain circumstances, are supposed to be in place, including tailoring experiences for 12- to 14-year-olds, 14- to 16-year-olds and so on. Quite a lot of enforcement is happening, but it is the first generation of this kind of enforcement.
I draw the committee's attention to a couple of things that have been happening in France to illustrate some of the stakes these companies have in this. Under domestic legislation, the French regulators are trying to impose hard age-verification measures on most of the offending pornographic platforms. There is essentially a face-off. Pornhub has stopped offering and has geo-blocked its service in France as a result of what is going on. That kind of push-back from these companies can be expected right across the board because it is such a lucrative area. There is a real reluctance for anybody to go first, which is why the co-ordinated approach we are taking on the digital services co-ordinators is so important. I want to give the committee a sense that we are working with existing legislation as well and trying to make that happen.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I did not mean to take up so much time. Apologies.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have a couple of very quick questions. I appreciate this is more about the witnesses' professional opinions, given the experience. Should we be looking at blocking recommender systems for young people? Should we ensure that platforms cannot use recommender systems with young people?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We have raised concerns about recommender systems since our establishment. We proposed looking at addressing recommender systems when we were first consulting on our Online Safety Code. Subsequent to that, the Digital Services Act came into being, which expressly covers recommender systems. Under the DSA, platforms have to take mitigation steps to make their recommender systems safer. A number of cases have been opened against platforms for not taking sufficient steps to make their recommender systems safer, in particular for children. Again, the July guidelines we are discussing address the need to ensure that recommender systems are safe for children.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that, but given what we have experienced and what part of the challenge is, and this was mentioned right from the very start of this discussion, we know about the rabbit holes people have gone in-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that, but-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will challenge Dr. Evans on that. I chair the AI committee, where this has come up as well. I get it, but one of the challenges we face, and all colleagues at this committee have said this, is how complex a lot of these issues are. I totally get that, sometimes, simple solutions may not always work, but part of our challenge is the more complex ways of dealing with it that we have seen have not addressed this. The question is whether we should look at switching off recommender systems and whether it will result in a safer environment than now. I get that there are knock-on implications, but our choice has to be whether it will mean a safer online environment for children and young people.
Dr. John Evans:
The simplicity of the way the question was put, which was whether we should turn them off, is misleading because all of a sudden it magics away the problem.
Recommender systems cannot be turned off. There has to be some way that the information is presented to users. It is a complex problem. What is the solution? I do not want to over-egg how complex it is, but, for example, in the Article 28 guidelines, there are recommendations for how platforms can deal with certain kinds of content through the recommender systems. This involves, for example, ignoring different kinds of implicit signals that a user might be giving and paying greater attention to explicit signals that the user is giving. I am sorry; it is a complex answer to a complex question.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the witnesses know where I am coming from on this?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
Yes, of course. It is something that we gave great thought to as well. Under the DSA, there is also the obligation on all platforms to have a recommender system that is not based on profiling but, for example, based on a chronological feed. That obligation is there. They also have to be transparent about their recommender system so that we can see what the recommender system is feeding and on what basis. It can also be amended. Those obligations are there, as well as the need for them to mitigate the harm caused by recommender systems, whether it is to children or the manospheric content, which Ms Warren referred to earlier.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will return to some of the issues relating to online gambling. Roblox, as people probably know, is the most popular virtual environment, particularly among young people. According to a survey by CyberSafeKids, 40% of eight- to 12-year-olds use Roblox. It provides access to a gambling environment. The service provider says that it has put some form of identification verification measure in place. How do we deal with an environment such as Roblox, which is clearly very popular with the younger age group? Do the witnesses think that the measures that it has taken will work to combat some of the harms that are outlined?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
We engage with Roblox regularly because it is so popular with Irish children, although it does not have its EU headquarters in Ireland. I will hand over to Mr. Moroney to explain how we do that by working with regulators in other EU member states. Due to its popularity with children and the potential for harm, we are also in discussion with Roblox about whether it will join a pilot scheme that we and the Safer Internet Centre are hoping to introduce to help children who are in distress or difficulty. The centre's partners include Hotline.ie, the National Parents Council, Webwise, the ISPCC and others in this space. Roblox is rolling out age-assurance, age-estimation and age-verification measures. It has presented these to us but we do not regulate it. However, the European Commission's guidelines to protect minors, which we helped to develop, covers gaming. Roblox is covered by the same obligations as the platforms so it has to protect the safety, security and privacy of minors. My colleague Mr. Moroney will explain how we work with the digital services regulator.
Mr. Wayne Moroney:
It is common for us to engage with regulators in other countries on a variety of issues. For example, when elections are held here and in other countries, we co-ordinate with other digital service co-ordinators to share our learnings, learn from them and try to figure out are there next steps that we need to build into our process or are there things they can do. It is a similar process when it comes to Roblox, which is not yet a very large online platform. We can co-ordinator with its local regulator, which is the Dutch regulator. If we see issues that we feel it is not taking advantage, for example if there is an opportunity to supervise or enforce its escalation protocols, we can pursue them outside the individual regulator too. It is not just that we can work with them; if we feel that we need to do more, there are opportunities to do so.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to wrap up on a positive note. I am sure everyone will agree that one very positive element that came from the setting-up of Coimisiún na Meán was the establishment of the youth advisory panel. I am glad that it was mentioned. With regard to how the panel has worked, particularly in this space, are there issues it has raised that have had an impact on the work of the commission and hopefully the work of the Department?
Ms Niamh Hodnett:
One of the first things we did in our first year was establish our youth advisory committee. We consult with them on all of our work, not just our online safety work, but it is particularly useful to hear directly from digital natives on the issue of online safety. As parents, we strive to be more protective and, as Deputy Cleere outlined, children and young people can explain to use all the benefits of their online engagement. We engaged with them on what should be included in the online safety code, what harms should we address and what measures should we take. We engage with them to get their views on topics such as social media bans in school or in general. We consult them on all of our activities, whether they are in the broadcast or online spaces. It members are now also global youth ambassadors. They engage with the members of similar youth advisory panels across the globe on online safety issues. As part of the same meeting at which we engaged with Roblox and many other platforms last Friday, on the Thursday, all of the global online safety regulators engaged with youth advisory panels from a number of different countries, including our own.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank everyone for their contributions. I am sorry that the meeting was interrupted by votes in the Seanad. I thank the witnesses for their testimonies and time. As I said earlier, we are all on the same side when it comes to the ongoing work in this area. It is all about resolving matters.