Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Before we get into the business today, I welcome Isla and Patrick to the committee room. They are on work experience with Deputy Whitmore as part of their transition year programme and have made the not-too-long journey from County Wicklow today. Cuirim fáilte romhaibh. I also welcome representatives of the National Inshore Fishermen's Association who have been before this committee already in the first part of this conversation. Cuirim fáilte romhaibh anseo agus gabhaim buíochas libh arís.

I note that we have apologies from Senators Manus Boyle and Diarmuid Wilson. I also want to redo the note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction.

Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication of information by the witnesses outside of the proceedings held by the committee in respect of any matters arising from proceedings.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Members may join us on Microsoft Teams but I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to the constitutional requirement of being here on the campus. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution they verbally confirm to me that they are on the grounds of Leinster House.

Members are once again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I make.

The agenda for today's meeting is inshore and island fisheries. As I mentioned, it comes on the back of previous engagements we have had with sectoral representatives. The committee will hear from the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, Deputy Timmy Dooley. The Minister of State is joined by the following officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Ms Suzanne Brennan and Ms Carol Forrest. They are both very welcome.

I remind members that while the Minister of State may call on those officials to speak briefly for clarification purposes during the meeting where a specific or technical point arises, the Minister of State is the witness before this committee whereas the officials are not. The officials can clarify issues for the committee but any follow-up questions from members should put to the Minister of State directly, as he is the accountable person before the committee.

The opening statement from the Minister of State has been circulated. I will give him five minutes to read it or, alternatively, to provide a shorter summary and then we will move on to questions and answers. I will say to members at this point that we will be taking seven minutes - the timers are displayed around the room - and to include time for questions and the Minister of State's responses in that seven-minute timeframe. We will then go for a second round once they have concluded. With that said, I will give the Minister of State the floor.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation and for providing us with an opportunity to set out our approach in relation to this issue of inshore and small-scale fishermen and women. At the outset, I, too, wish to recognise the presence of Isla and Patrick and I thank them for showing an interest in this area. They certainly could not have a better person guiding them through these areas than Deputy Whitmore, with her understanding of this area. I also recognise our friends from the National Inshore Fishermen's Association, NIFA, Mr. Michael Desmond and Mr. John Menarry, who provide ongoing support on occasion and criticism when it is necessary of my role as Minister of State. I thank them for that and I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today.

In the programme for Government, this Government has pledged to maintain support for the inshore fishing sector and promote the sustainability of fish stocks. The inshore sector is well represented by the national inshore fisheries forum, NIFF, its regional forums and the two producer organisations, the National Inshore Fishermen’s Association, which I have already mentioned, and also the Irish Islands Marine Resource Organisation, IIMRO. Both producer organisations, along with NIFF, sit on the quota management advisory committee, influencing management of Ireland’s fish quotas within national policy. I want to acknowledge the contributions made by both organisations in their recent appearances before the joint committee.

Engagement with representatives of Ireland's inshore fishing sector is a key priority for me. I met again with NIFA this morning, when we discussed key issues for the sector. I am aware of the challenges faced by the inshore sector and I am committed to working through these issues with it to identify the best way to secure a sustainable future for the fleet. I will always work to ensure the fishing sector's interests are fully represented at domestic, European and international levels.

To that extent, when I previously met with members of the inshore producer organisations, POs, they were concerned about the funding mechanism in place that is a disincentive for them or makes it difficult for them to survive. In 2025, the Department met with all POs and Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, to review and revise the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, EMFF, producer organisation scheme. On foot of this, the scheme was revised with provision made for higher grant aid rates and thresholds. Previously, I met with NIFA and IIMRO to discuss their request that pre-payments to newly formed POs be facilitated. I instructed officials in my Department to seek the sanction of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitisation to allow for pre-payments to be made under the producer organisation scheme, recognising the small scale of those organisations and their not having the financial wherewithal to spend first and claim later.

I am pleased to inform the committee that the Department of public expenditure's sanction has been forthcoming and the terms of the PO funding scheme will be amended accordingly. I received information about that late yesterday evening. Under the terms of the proposed revision, when submitting their production and marketing plans, POs will be able to seek a prepayment of 50% of the project finance set out in the production and marketing plan, PMP. This will be paid once the PMP has been approved for funding. The balance of funding for eligible costs can then be drawn down by the PO in a normal way at the end of the year. Supporting documentation will not be required in relation to the eligible costs covered by this prepayment until the PO submit its final claim for funding. This is still subject to the grant aid rates that apply under the scheme. I am hopeful that this will provide the kind of support that the smaller scale POs representing the inshore fishing sector so readily need.

I understand the inshore sector is seeking additional funding supports and I would like to stress that significant improvements have been made in recent years. The upcoming BIM report on the findings of the inshore census and the inshore fleet economic adjustment scheme will inform development of future funding supports for the inshore fleet. I would also like to see those in the inshore sector leverage their position as producers of local, sustainably fished seafood by selling directly in their localities to maximise the value of their catch. It is a challenge and it is not easy, but it is something I think will help to move what they are producing sustainably beyond just being a commodity that is sold to processors with them not getting or obtaining the kind of reward that they should.

At the end of September, I signed the relevant legal instrument to restrict trawling activity by large vessels inside six nautical miles from 1 October next year. I am confident that this will further help to re-establish the important links between local fish resources, local fleets and local economies. I have also closed fishing for sprat by vessels over 18 m in length in inshore waters.

I would welcome the engagement with the inshore sector and will answer any questions the committee might have.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State for his submission. I have a few questions. I welcome the changes to the PO funding. That was one of the issues I was going to raise. Other committee members and I would be well aware of the difficulties in the upfront payments for those small POs.

Another matter I was hoping to get some feedback on was the special recognition of island fisheries. The heritage licence Bill has been in the system for many years now and has been supported by parties inside and outside of government, but it really has not gone anywhere. I believe that, at one stage, the previous Minister stated that it would not be possible because it would not be in compliance with EU rules. Will the Minister of State take a look at that again? Article 17 of the fisheries policy allows for special recognition to be provided. Is that something that he has examined or would consider examining?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for her first point, which I think is accepted by all. In addition to those from the fishing sector, it has been raised with me by members of this committee. It was a joint approach.

In 2022, the then Minister for agriculture wrote to the Attorney General to seek comprehensive advice on the Island Fisheries (Heritage Licence) Bill and its position with regard to existing national and EU sea fisheries legislation. The Attorney General returned at that stage a comprehensive view that the Bill was not compatible with EU regulations supporting the Common Fisheries Policy and the national implementing legislation that gave effect to those provisions. It is important to recognise that the lack of any such legislation has not prevented us from continuing to implement supports for inshore fishermen and fisherwomen and our rural coastal communities, including on our islands. However, I am happy to have a look at it again to try to understand if there is another way to achieve the same thing. I recognise the change in Chair, who will have lots of experience in this regard.

It may be that the Bill that was provided at the time was not compatible. Maybe there could be some amendments to that or other elements of it. I am not aware if there was a piece of work done to try to understand how the Bill might be changed or amended to fit within that. That is what I am not clear on. If we go back to look at the spirit of what was trying to be achieved rather than the hard-wired legislation, there is perhaps something there. It is something I am prepared to look at, but I am also conscious of the effort in our Department and the myriad of work I am throwing to officials. I do not want to give a timeframe, but it is something I am prepared to look at. I am advised that we are still providing supports to these communities and to these fishermen and fisherwomen without that legislation being in place, but I am happy to look at it. If there is a proposal the Deputy might have that we can work on, I am certainly prepared to look at it.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State. Maybe the issue with the Bill relates to how it is framed, putting it in the context of Article 17. I believe UNESCO has a special recognition.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am just throwing that out by way of potential, not having gone through it in detail and not having had a legal analysis. I do not want to rubbish the production of the Bill because it dates back some time.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Will it be possible for the Minister of State to request that legal analysis to see what the specific issues were?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to get that. I will see if I can provide it. It is always difficult to provide Attorney General's advice, but I may be able to provide the Deputy with something that will give her some sense of the issues that arose in that instance.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Isla and Patrick were working in my office yesterday and went through the Minister of State's opening statements and we had a look at the previous documentation from the committees. One of the issues they identified was a lack of funding for infrastructure, particularly on the islands in remote fishing communities. Will the Minister of State outline what funding opportunities there are? Has he spoken to any other Ministers or Departments about rationalising or directing funding that would benefit rural communities and the fishing sector within those communities as well?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There are a number of funding mechanisms that already exist, and it is based on ownership. Through the Department of agriculture, the State has responsibility for six large-scale fishing harbours and the State funds those annually with upgrade and maintenance. Last year that was to the tune of approximately €20 million. We will get the exact figure for last year and over successive years. I know there are many piers and harbours that provide a significant amount of access for small-scale fisheries. The gross figure for last year was €27.7 million, with €23.4 million going to the six large-scale fisheries harbours and €385,000 going to Cape Clear and some specific piers, lights and beacons that fall under the responsibility of the Department even though we do not own them. Some €4.3 million went into the fund for dispersal through local authorities, which now have ownership of piers and harbours. I hear from the small-scale inland fishermen and fisherwomen that it gets a lot of good work done for a relatively small amount of money. I do not have full clarity on how much will be available next year, but I would like to maintain the same level. I have had an initial conversation with the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to try to understand what we can do together to co-mingle capital funds. There is nothing structured yet.

We fall down a little at times in the case of infrastructure that is not a fishing harbour, or where a lot of the activity may not be fishing, and therefore does not fit under the criteria we have. I refer, for example, to a jetty or pier that is principally being used for tourism or leisure activity; for sea angling, which is principally tourism; or for somebody bringing in lobster pots or crab pots. From our perspective, maybe that is a small component of it. From a Government perspective, we need to look at how we can do that in a more substantial way. As a new initiative this year, the Department circulated information to inshore fishers' representatives regarding the announcement of the 2025 programme.

The inshore representatives were encouraged to highlight the smaller piers, slipways and such that may require upgrading to the relevant local authority. That goes back to the €4.3 million I mentioned. The Acting Chairman is signalling I need to move on. I am happy to engage with the Deputy on that.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge the Minister of State has been meeting with the inshore fishermen and islands fishermen. Both those groups presented separately to the committee and outlined their concerns. I want to deal with a few of those. We might also get a chance later on to come back to them.

The first point is around financial supports. Those of us who live in coastal communities and fishermen, particularly inshore fishermen, would have pushed back on that. They would say they need fish and want fish. There are a range of factors, including curtailment of salmon and pollock. I do not need to talk about bluefin tuna. It is an outrage: one of the most lucrative fish in the world is in our waters but not available, not even for inshore fishermen. Then look at fuel, bait and insurance costs. It is everywhere you turn.

The Minister of State's opening statement refers to an upcoming BIM report on the findings of the inshore census and the inshore fleet economic adjustment scheme. When he meets with the inshore and islands fishermen, he knows they need a tangible financial subsidy scheme. Farmers have had it for a long time. The reason they have it is we need to keep them on the land. It is vital for rural communities and for food that is safe, secure and affordable. The same has to be afforded to fishermen. In its presentation, the NIFA stated there are schemes in place, and rightly so, for musicians and artists. That is sound, but where are the fishermen's supports? In the Minister's response, I do not want another BIM assessment. I want to know tangibly what he will do to provide financial supports to inshore and islands fishermen.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I note his interest in this area. He has outlined it on many occasions. When I took this post on, I looked at decisions and requests already in place and brought external expertise in to carry out a review across the fishing sector. We appointed Kieran Mulvey, who is carrying out a significant body of work to report back to me and the Department on how we might best tackle the issues that have bedevilled previous Ministers from a regulatory perspective. I await that report. When I get it, I will use it to set out the terms and conditions of a strategy document for the next five years, which is provided for in the programme for Government. That has to be a comprehensive approach.

Issues have been raised with me in relation to taxation measures, social supports, etc., some of which fall outside the remit of this Department. I will not give that by way of an excuse because I feel our Department has a responsibility for the overall architecture of the large-scale fishing efforts and, particularly, the smaller ones. The Deputy eloquently identified comparisons between fishermen and small farmers. I am sure he is aware that comparisons are made with income supports for farmers. As a small farmer, I know reasonably well how that works. These are provided for within the framework of the Common Agricultural Policy, specifically on the basis of Regulation (EU) 2021/2115, which sets out the rules for support under CAP strategic plans and makes provision for basic income supports. Unfortunately, there is no such provision in the Common Fisheries Policy. That puts us on the back foot. We then have state aid rules and all that fly under them.

What I have to do when we get the report from Kieran Mulvey is to try to interrogate that again and see what mechanism we can put in place. I know the pressure they are under and see the cost-of-living issues and the reduced stock of fish. The Deputy, thankfully, pointed out at the outset that these men and women are not looking for handouts; they want fish.

Unfortunately, with the conservation measures needed to regrow stocks and improve biomass, we have to put limits in place and we are doing that. The approach to sprat fishing involves a mechanism introduced by previous Ministers but expedited by us to provide fish for the sector and try to balance between the big and the small guys. I hope that will be of some help.

The primary source of funding for the Irish commercial seafood sector is the European Maritime, Fisheries and Aquaculture fund, EMFAF. It is one of a number of European Cohesion Funds. The regulation is aligned with the objectives of the Common Fisheries Policy and therefore the EMFAF regulation does not provide for income supports to primary producers in the seafood sector. Everywhere I have looked at regarding how to fund this, if we were minded to do so, I have come up against a stone wall.

There is potential. I am hopeful about a review of the Common Fisheries Policy, although as I said to the lads this morning it will not happen tomorrow. We spoke again at the recent Council meeting in Brussels with the Commissioner. Because of significant changes that have happened in fisheries in recent years, there is a recognition of the need for a significant review of the Common Fisheries Policy. It is a challenge, too, when you start reviewing. I am sure we will talk about it again in the context of other things.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back later. For now, my final question is this. There is a number of committees that deal with herring and mackerel allocations. There is real annoyance in the inshore sector that the allocation it is given from the quota is very low. It has been referred to in Department advice. To cut to the chase, how will the Minister of State deal with that issue and ensure fair representation of inshore and island fishermen on those committees and a reasonable allocation for those sectors? It belongs to the Irish people. It is a public quota.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Very much so. It is important for me to maintain it as a State asset. Mackerel is the most valuable stock at the minute. Regardless of the allowable catch and the quota Ireland gets, the hook-and-line sector will retain 400 tonnes of mackerel for next year, unless we get below 400 tonnes, which is not envisaged, even with the 70% cut this year, the 26% Brexit cut and the scientific advice of 20% last year. That 400 tonnes is protected.

I will let the Deputy into my thinking on this. If the scientific advice had not changed for this year - the cut of 70% - we were looking at the potential for some quota to be assigned in terms of a deal with Iceland. I discussed it with the industry and if we were to increase the quota, I would have been minded to move that 400 tonnes up. I do not know what that number would be but I was of a mind to increase that allocation if we were getting in additional mackerel from Iceland. There is no way I can do that with a cut of 70% on this occasion but the 400 tonnes does not take a pro rata 70% cut. That is protected. That is cold comfort to people who have been struggling.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What about the herring end of it?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to come back to the Deputy on the herring. There is some dispute with that grouping at the minute. Some people have pulled away from that management committee. I will come back when we have time again.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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To go off track, I will ask the Minister of State about something for the next time he is in. SFPA representatives were in here last week. To say I was not amused with their tone or the answers they gave would be to put it lightly, and I am sure other members felt likewise. We are looking to get the Minister of State in after Christmas to discuss this. They said that decisions made by our predecessors went against us and that the representatives would not answer any questions because they were barred from doing so. That is something I will bring up with the Minister of State in the new year.

Going back to what Deputy Mac Lochlainn said, I thought they were looking for a fairer share of that 400 tonnes. The Minister of State's answer suggested they had 400 tonnes. I am not sure. Can he clarify?

Do they have 400 tonnes? I thought they were looking at the better part of the 400 tonnes.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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They are looking for more than 400 tonnes.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Is that something that is being looked at in the context of pelagic species?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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To be clear, I was looking at it in the context of whether the overall allowable quota was to increase. At one stage, we were looking at an arrangement with Iceland whereby we might have increased our quota for mackerel on the basis of certain trade-offs. My view was that if there was mackerel coming in on top, I would look at sharing it between the larger vessels and the inshore fisheries. That did not materialise, and our existing quota was cut by 70%. It is not feasible or possible for me to take another slice and put it on top of the 400 tonnes. I would be of a mind to do that if conditions change and if the biomass of mackerel were to change. I do not want to give false comfort, however. That is three or four years away, and somebody else may be here in my role by that time. It may well be Deputy Maxwell having to make that decision.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Another thing being looked for the inshore fisheries is future policy directions. Is the Minister of State considering that these will be included in future policy directions and decisions?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Very much so. This is why that I was anxious at a very early stage to engage with all aspects of the sector in order to look at the policy platform and the issues as to what is working and, more importantly from my perspective, what is not. This was the idea behind engaging Kieran Mulvey to go out and engage. The work being done to collect this information, namely people's thoughts and views, is going very well. People find Kieran Mulvey to be a very sincere, sympathetic and understanding person who has a good breadth of knowledge of this area. I hope this will feed into the development of our policy platform over the next four to five years.

To go back to the issue the Deputy identified, as he knows, the SFPA is independent of me, particularly in the exercise of its functions. We have an overall policy remit in respect of it. That is clearly set out in the legislation. We appoint the members of the authority, but when it comes to its functions, however, it is independent. From what I read in the media, the SFPA was asked a number of questions here last week. I understand that the committee was interested in having a discussion with the it in relation to a particular case. However the legislation is also very clear that no committee of the Oireachtas can require the authority to discuss details of individual cases. I have been around this House for a while, and I have sat on the other side of this table. As Deputy Mac Lochlainn knows, there are ways - without getting into specifics - to discuss the generality of a case. There are really good people in the SFPA. It is not for me to direct them, but I hope they would engage with the Deputy in a general way in order that they can set out the issues that they have to deal with and the legislative basis relating to them, and to be as open and frank as they can be while adhering to the provisions of the legislation and maintaining their independent profile, function and authority.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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My final question is on bluefin tuna. I hear all the time that we have no quota for this in Ireland. All we do is scientific work such as tagging, and then there are some sports fishing boats that go out to fish for bluefin tuna. I am told that bluefin tuna come within 20 km to 1 km of the Irish coast. Could we get a quota for inshore fishermen? Could this be done in a sustainable way? What I am told is that once the bluefin tuna go out past our waters, the international vessels are there hoovering up everything they can get. We have no oversight of that. We do not know what they are catching. Is this something we could look at? This could be a highly valuable opportunity for our inshore fisherman if it was fished in a sustainable manner. Some of our inshore boats could add to what they are already catching. Maybe what I am suggesting is off the wall, but it is galling to think that bluefin tuna are in our waters and that we are doing everything in respect of them. Then, when they swim outside our waters, international vessels are just hoovering them up and sailing off into the sunset. It is a wee bit galling for our inshore fishermen to see such a prize catch heading away.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is certainly not being off the wall. If he was, he would be the first Cavan man I have ever met at a committee meeting who was. This matter has certainly been discussed. I have raised it consistently at the European Council.

There were agreements in Seville at the weekend in relation to the total allowable catch and the EU's share. We have taken a small percentage hit at European level on a greater catch. It was maybe only a reduction of about 0.1%, but the tonnage has gone up. We were aware that this was going to happen from a scientific perspective, and also because we have had the catch-and-release, scientific-based fishery for authorised recreational angling vessels since 2019. It was really around supporting the collection of data. This has been very useful for us in making the case, because we see a significant amount of bluefin tuna in our waters. It is worth making the point that climate change and the warming of the waters are moving fish stocks further north. That is impacting on other species. It is important that if we lose out at the top end, we should be trying to make some gains at the lower end. When they were set, quotas were generally assigned on the basis of a country's track record in terms of catching particular fish. We did not have a track record of catching bluefin tuna, but they are now in our waters, so that has to change. That is why changes need to happen in the Common Fisheries Policy. I consistently outlined the necessity for us to get a share of that. It would have been more challenging while the biomass remained consistent, but as it grows, others will see growth opportunities for them. I will be using every opportunity, including discussions with the Commissioner. This was one of the issues we raised when the Commissioner was in Castletownbeare last May for the maritime day. The industry made a very clear, impassioned plea to him as to how beneficial a small quota of bluefin tuna would be, particularly as it is a highly sought-after species. One or two bluefin tuna would make a massive difference to the lives and livelihood of a small group, so the Deputy is very much on the ball in respect of this matter.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here. I will pick up on what Deputy Mac Lochlainn was talking about in relation to supports for inshore fishermen. The Minister of State will have to admit that the costs for inshore fishermen are huge. These costs relate to diesel, bait, weather in general, storms and boats being tied up for periods. I have listened to the Minister of State speaking about quotas. I took a few notes in respect of what he said, including that it is not feasible or possible to increase the mackerel quota. What is possible and what can the Minister of State do? I am a firm believer that because fishers have been shut out of so many different avenues, supports need to be put in place for them. This is something within the Minster of State's control. What happens in Europe and other countries may not be so much within the Minister of State's control, but supports for inshore fishermen are definitely within his remit. What kind of supports does he envisage putting together for them? There is a very low take-up for the fish assist scheme, and they are considered self-employed. Something like the basic income for artists and the basic income for farmers should be looked at for fishers. Will the Minister of State commit to doing that?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I note the Senator's continued interest in these matters. In fairness, she has raised a number of them on more than one occasion. I thank her for that. Clearly, she is well briefed. As a representative from an inland county, she is certainly punching well on this issue. As to what I can do, in the first instance, the work that I have identified in which Kieran Mulvey is involved is under way. With his assistance and that of others, I intend to work through the issues that arise outside our Department. I have set out what the Department can do and what it cannot do, and I am doing that fairly. I am not washing my hands of the issue and telling people to go elsewhere. I intend to pursue whatever comes out of that with the Departments of social welfare and Finance. I will certainly consult the latter if it is a taxation issue or a fiscal issue.

This morning, the lads talked about the potential for certain VAT issues relating to petrol because some of the smaller boats run on petrol rather than diesel. We will look at all of that in context.

As I mentioned earlier, I want to ensure that, even with reduced quotas, we get greater value for the fishing stock that is brought ashore. We want fishing to be done in a very careful way and we want high-quality fish to be brought ashore. We do not just want a commodity that is dropped to a processor and finds its way into the lower level cost. We need to work, through Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, and with the inland fishermen and fisherwomen, to maximise the return on their stock. That is the first thing. We must then look at what financial supports could be of assistance, if they were to meet the standards required under the state aid rules and are not seen to be a distortion of the marketplace. We must also consider supports for coastal communities that make their lives easier by reducing costs.

I am prepared to look at all of that, but I am not going to make a commitment to the committee to the effect that I will be some sort of a fairy godmother at Christmas who can make all things happen. I know that is not what the Senator is asking for. She is looking for genuine engagement. I am happy to do that and to engage with the Senator again.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I am looking for genuine engagement, but I am also trying to tell the Minister of State that many avenues for fishermen, particularly inshore fishermen, have been closed to them. At this stage, there is an urgency to the requirement to support them with something like the basic income for artists. That was achieved by the former Minister for the arts and it needs to be considered in this context.

I also want to raise the issue of regulation. It is often designed around large industrial vessels and yet inshore and island fishers are expected to comply with the same administrative burden. What is the Department doing to tailor regulation for smaller boats? I am not asking for weaker regulation. I am asking for more tailored regulation.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There is some tailoring there at the minute. It depends on the volume of fish landed, but some of the smaller ones do not have to go into designated ports. The lads have talked about that to me. They have asked if those limits could be looked at. From my perspective, it is about trying to assist the fishermen in managing their efforts with the lightest burden while at the same time protecting fish stocks and not creating some kind of lacuna that is open to exploitation. Quite frankly, the smaller fishermen and fisherwomen do not want to exploit and just want to make a living. With any changes I make, I must be cautious and conscious to ensure there are no unintended consequences.

As I said, the programme of engagement that I have in place, through the work done by Kieran Mulvey, is aimed at collecting all those ideas, bringing them together and trying to work through them. I am hoping to get onto that in the early part of next year. I will engage with the committee.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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Has the Minister of State a timeline for when that will be collated and decided upon?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have a cut-off date because I have to work with the people who are engaged in this. As soon as I get that report, I will move quickly. I expect that I will be back before the committee to engage with members. I am happy to share it with the committee when we have it all together.

I see the urgency. It is inherent in the Senator's questioning that there is urgency. I know the costs of doing business for small-scale operators are challenging.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I was shocked on the previous occasion island representatives were before the committee to hear about the lack of equipment, water and electricity at some of the ports. That is low-hanging fruit that could be dealt with straight away. It should not have to be brought up.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. We did quite a bit in recent years, some of it before my time and some under the Brexit adjustment local authority marine infrastructure, BALAMI, funding. Some €34 million was pumped into that scheme over a short period of time. That was one-off funding and a lot of work was done in that regard over a relatively short period.

There were limits in terms of when that funding had to be spent because of the way the Brexit adjustment fund worked more generally. Last year, we spent close to €4.3 million. This year, we will spend close to €4.3 million and I hope to have the same amount next year. Some €40 million has been administered to 13 local authorities under the scheme. Some €37.8 million came from Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, and €2.6 million came from the national adjustment. In 2024, €12.25 million went to 15 local authority marine infrastructure projects. There was previously funding under the BALAMI scheme. There has been nearly €60 million there in recent years.

I am conscious there is more to be done. I am sure the Chairman, when he gets back, will remind us of Helvick, which I had the opportunity to visit and look at. There is Unionhall in Cork. These are significant projects that go above the threshold available to me. I am looking at ways to try to bring together, as I said to one of the previous questioners, other Departments, including the Departments of sport and tourism, which have some role in pleasure and leisure crafts. I am trying to involve the Department of the Minister, Deputy Calleary, on the community piece. Perhaps collectively we could put something together. When that work is done, I will come back to the committee with a more comprehensive response.

Between 2010 and 2024, the Department invested approximately €356 million in publicly owned marine infrastructure through a mix of national, Exchequer and Brexit adjustment reserve funding. I am giving the Senator that information by way of background. That is money that has been spent. There is still demand.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the Minister. With all that money, there are still piers that are left without water, electricity and ice. That should not be.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Ice is a different thing, but that is the case in respect of electricity. Security cameras are needed because many of the smaller scale operators have units on the shoreline. We released the scheme in March last year. We might try to get it away earlier this year if we can. I encourage those fishermen and fisherwomen who identify opportunities to contact their local authorities. There is usually an engineer set aside. Deputy Cooney and I know that there is an engineer for the maritime area in Clare. He is particularly good at identifying opportunities. Even where people are not coming to him with ideas, he is looking at opportunities based on his knowledge. I hope that other coastal counties will do the same and have an engineer who gets out there, is proactive and identifies the little projects that could work.

It sometimes looks insurmountable. We have a set limit of €275,000 or €280,000 with match funding on the schemes. I will check that number. Councils must put forward 25%. Even within that, I have seen really good work done. Perhaps a council wanted a project that costs €500,000. If that is done over two or three years, there is a decent facility. When the scheme opens, I will communicate with all Oireachtas Members and perhaps they can feed into their local authorities. It would be hard to find an opportunity in Cavan, but you never know.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his opening statement. As a Clare man, he knows that the small boat fishing industry in the county has collapsed. It is a fraction of what it used to be. This is an industry that could provide significant onshore added value in communities that need it, particularly through the processing of high-quality and high-value fish to be used in the local restaurants and hotels in west Clare, the Clare area and the mid-west region.

How does the Minister of State plan to regenerate the industry in places such as Carrigaholt, Doonbeg, Quilty, Liscannor and other places across the west coast of Clare? The difference it would make if we could get it back up and running again. Many people were self-employed in the industry in the past, but, unfortunately, there are very small numbers at the moment.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I know he has a strong interest. He has been in touch with me about this issue on a number of occasions. I have had an opportunity to visit some of the small-scale fishermen in the areas he has talked about. There is a mixture of activity. There is sea-angling. A number of people are generating gainful employment from taking out sea-anglers as part of their leisure and pleasure activities.

This supports some accommodation providers in the area. There are other small-scale operators, which are mainly in the inshore sector, fishing for lobster and crab. Stocks have dwindled in recent years and this is why there are not as many involved in it. We had a significant programme to v-notch lobster. When female lobsters are fished, fishermen are provided with a significant payment to put a v-notch on them and put them back in the water. These are for female lobsters that have berries on them, in other words eggs. We are trying to keep them in the water for another three or four years to improve and increase the level of lobsters.

We have other conservation work going on with the brown crab, and we have provided a brown crab document which we published recently. I intend to implement its recommendations. It is aimed at trying, through conservation, at best to maintain the existing fleet that is there and, hopefully, grow it over time. Deputy Cooney has rightly identified the opportunity that is there for high-quality fish brought ashore in a low-impact way, rather than through bulk fishing which often just goes to mass markets. It is about connecting the small-scale fisheries that inshore fishermen and women are involved in with local wholesalers. Deputy Cooney knows CS Fish in Doonbeg, which is a great operation. It buys from both up and down the west coast of Ireland and provides direct access to its shops, and it also supplies restaurants, without ever going to the big producers. This is this kind of work that I want to continue to encourage. It is almost artisan. It is the same if we look at the Burren Smokehouse, which Deputy Cooney is familiar with. Birgitta Curtin takes ethically and organically farmed Irish salmon, smokes it and brings it to a very high standard, and exports it to the United States and elsewhere at premium prices.

This is where I see the future of these small-scale fisheries. Recognising the stocks are challenged, how do we get more for less? It is happening in the main beef sector at the minute. We see farmers reducing their herd numbers but they are getting a higher price for beef which is making their enterprises more viable and sustainable. We have to see the same opportunity in fishing. What we can do is funding, and earlier this year Deputies Cooney and Crowe and I announced funding for Clare. I do not recall the total quantum of money for Clare but perhaps it was €400,000. When we put a small amount of money into the little harbours Deputy Cooney spoke about it makes it easier for fishermen to land their stock. We support them in every way we can. Clare is a microcosm of what goes on in coastal communities around the country.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Did the lack of investment over the years cause the issues we have now in the west Clare region?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is not so much the lack of funding. One is a consequence of the other. There is no doubt about the pressure on stocks and the overfishing. When I went back to the lads in west Clare they were really pleased that we moved on getting the big boats out of the bays for fishing for sprat. Not alone are they taking sprat, they were taking everything. The measure we took earlier this year to take the larger boats, those that are over 18 m, out of the inshore area gives all those smaller-scale fishermen and women an opportunity to fish not only for sprat but for other species as well that were being absolutely ripped out by these trawlers. They challenged it in every way. I am not taking the credit for this, quite frankly, because other Ministers tried it to the nth degree. So far we have been, I will not say lucky, but we have put in place such a robust legal framework that we believe it is watertight and will withstand any challenge.

It has taken time to get there. The activity of some of these large-scale operators over time was really where the damage was done. They took away all the biomass of fish at various stages of development. Truthfully, it is like anything; if the fish were there, there would be lots of fellows and women in trying to catch them. If I were to look to anything, it is a pity the conservation measures could not have been put in place sooner. Successive Ministers tried it and they were challenged in the courts. It is a fact that we need to see continued investment in our piers because this helps the angling.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I agree it is important but is it too little too late? I hope it is not.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cooney and I come from a county where we would never take a defeatist attitude.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I know.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Conservation is the appropriate measure. The exclusion of vessels over 18 m, forcing them out of inshore waters, will help the biomass of fish stocks to recover. I intend to robustly defend this decision regardless. I have instructed officials in the Department that if there is any attempt to undermine this in the courts we will challenge it head on. Let us be frank about this; we cannot continue or allow to continue what has happened. This is definite.

What I then want to see happen is that as the biomass for the various species starts to recover, we support fishermen in their ethical exploitation of these stocks. We will support through funding the infrastructure that is necessary and deemed necessary, not only in Clare but along our coastline, as well as looking at the supports that will be necessary to assist fishermen and women remaining in the business while the stocks recover. We are now on a journey towards conservation for fishing. It has to be done in a more ethical way and this is a challenge. I also want to give a shout out to the inshore fishermen and women who have been doing this ethically all their lives. It was unfortunate that some who have a different business model, and they do good work out in the ocean, sought to come in and clear the inshore area for short-term gain. It was legal at the time and it is not now, and I intend to robustly defend the legislative position we have taken. I thank Deputy Cooney for his interest.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of questions myself.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Can I just correct something?

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Work away.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I said €280,000 in response to Senator O'Reilly with regard to the local authorities but it is €250,000, and this represents 75% of the funding.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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There is an issue whereby some local authorities are doing better than others-----

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister was just correcting the record. There will be an opportunity to come back in.

I have a couple of questions. The Minister of State was spot on the money when he said he expected me to raise Cé Heilbhic, and I do so in the context of previous meetings the committee has had where we have met and heard from inshore fishermen. They have consistently raised the need for investment in ports and harbours. I reiterate, and I know we have discussed them several times and at length, the difficulties that local authorities have in accessing the fund for works required because of the requirement for shovel-ready applications. In many respects this puts them at a disadvantage because the cost of getting to shovel-ready stage projects that are badly needed in local areas, and the dredging of Cé Heilbhic is a prime example but not the only one, is sometimes more than the cost of the project itself. This is something I would like the Minister of State and the officials to take back to the Department. We have discussed it and the Minister of State has looked into it already but it is out of kilter with the funding schemes offered by other Departments to local authorities for various capital works.

A huge disservice has been done by successive Governments over many decades when it comes to our inshore sector.

It is a sector and part of the fishing industry that has been sustainable, ethical and locally based. It ticks all the boxes that consumers and those involved in food promotion would now like brands or products to tick. It can tell a story. There is traceability from lobster pot or net to plate. We have had that and allowed it to die a death all along our coastline.

Deputy Cooney asked whether this is too little, too late and it is hard not to be pessimistic about the future of the inshore sector. The survey of sentiment in the fishing industry Deputy Mac Lochlainn and I undertook last year showed that with stark figures for how minded people who are currently fishing are to pass on an enterprise to a son or daughter, because they do not see a future in it. The sentiment in the industry, and particularly in the inshore sector, is on the ground at the moment. Furthermore, that was before the pelagic crisis and the issues that are heading our way this autumn.

I could say a lot about direct payments small farmers might be able to avail of but that are not available to the inshore sector or the rest of the fishing industry. Fish assist does not fall under the Minister of State's Department; it is under the Department of Social Protection. However, fish assist only benefits 60 families or thereabouts. There is not the same safety net as farmers might expect to have. However, at its crux, this is about access to quotas. Any inshore fisher will say that it is about access to quotas and the fair allocation of our national quota. There are the European negotiations for getting a quota for Ireland Inc., but then how Ireland's allocation is distributed is the biggest issue.

I have asked a few questions and would like to hear the Minister of State's thoughts on them and on how we can put the inshore sector in the middle of our national maritime strategy.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach rightly raised the issue of investment in piers and harbours and talked about Cé Heilbhic, which he had an opportunity to show to me. I have thought about this and I do not have the answer just yet, but I am concerned there is a gap in our offering in recognising the difficulties for local authorities putting together the ecological reports necessary, which are expensive and, in places where it is not available it is a challenge. However, I am also conscious that if we do not put some onus on the council, every council will take the approach that the State funds it and that is a complication we need to look at.

The upper limit for the funding provided to local authorities for quays and harbours is €250,000. The Department will pay up to 75% of that, or €187,500, so we are only funding projects that have an overall limit of €250,000. I think I said €287,000 or €275,000 earlier. It is €250,000. The council has to come up with 25% and we will come up with €187,500. That will be reviewed, because if we do not review it every year that goes by, with the costs going up, less and less work will be done for the money so we have to look at that.

While the fish assist scheme does not fall under my remit, when the report comes back and we start working with what Mr. Kieran Mulvey is working on, I intend to lead on the report rather than say it is for someone else and I will engage with others, as I am sure the committee will. I hope that on foot of that work, the committee will be able to bring in Ministers who have responsibility for other areas.

The Cathaoirleach rightly identified the important work the inshore sector has done. It is sustainable and ethical. Sometimes it is hand to mouth, quite frankly, and that is where I think about financial supports. The sector would much prefer to be dealing with fish - catching, processing and selling it - than looking for supports. It is not about handouts and I get that. However, it behoves us all to try to assist, through whatever mechanism, to keep the sector alive through the conservation phase we are going through and I hope it can recover.

The Cathaoirleach talked about the connection between the fishermen and women and the plate or table, that is getting the fish from the pot to the table. That is important. We have talked at BIM level about trying to support that. It plays a role in supporting the sector through a tailored training that was made available to the sector under the Brexit inshore fisheries business model adjustment scheme.

However, we can do more to assist with marketing. I am always conscious of putting more emphasis or pressure on people who know what they are doing and telling them they have to do more, but I think, through BIM we can do more to help to identify the connection between the distributor and the restaurant or the table. Some people are doing it. In north Clare around the Flaggy Shore, someone is selling locally from the boat on the pier at certain times and at certain times of year, there will be a significant queue of people who are aware they can buy fresh lobster like that. There is work to be done.

We also gave support to allow fishermen - it was probably under the Brexit scheme as well - to develop tanks to retain lobsters in the water in their own areas, so they could retain their stock for longer, rather than having to get rid of it when it comes off the boat. We have done some of that work in the past and we would love to continue it.

On access to quotas, particularly for mackerel with the significant cut that is envisaged, I do not see any possibility. I would be misleading the committee if I were to say there was any way to give additional quotas. The 400 tonnes allocated from the overall Irish quota will remain. That is not cut pro rataby 70% or any percentage. It is hardwired and will remain next year, unless we go below 400 tonnes, but that is not envisaged from the scientific advice. As I said earlier, it was my intention, if we had received an increase in mackerel stocks coming from a deal with Iceland, to ensure the inshore sector would get an additional piece of it, but that is not going to come to fruition because of what has happened.

The is 2.5% of 13% mackerel allocated to the polyvalent vessels, which goes to the vessels under 18 m, is subject to a cut all right. However, there is improved representation on the quota management advisory committee, QMAC, with the NIFA and the IIMRO, which have been on the committee since 2023 and 2021, respectively. They are active and have improved standing. The reports I sought and on which got agreement from the Department of Public Expenditure,Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation about the representation of the producer organisations, POs, should be helpful to them in making their case in that regard. That is the issue with access to the quota.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Before I move on to the next speaker, the Minister of State mentioned BIM and it has been before the committee. I note that Ms Caroline Bocquel has moved on from the position of chief executive officer and there is a vacancy. It is my strong opinion that insofar as appointments are concerned - and I imagine a process is in place with the Public Appointments Service - it would be preferable and certainly worth putting into the mix that the person who will take the position of chief executive of BIM should have industry experience. I completely understand that managing a large organisation tasked with food promotion and industry development needs a particular skill set. However, I ask the Minister of State, in making the appointment, to bear in mind that that skill set could be matched with industry experience.

The Minister of State may be aware that the SFPA was before the committee last week. I think I speak for the whole committee when I say we were less than impressed by how questions were answered. What reporting mechanism does the SFPA have to the Minister of State? We were told by the director that ultimately he is responsible to this committee, but we found it difficult to get straight answers to our questions.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach talked about the CEO of BIM. Before we can advertise that vacancy it has to go through the Department of public expenditure, which it has and we have been given sanction to appoint someone.

The decision in relation to the appointment of a CEO does not fall to me. I do not have a role in it. It is the board that ultimately makes that decision. The Deputy has raised an issue of concern here, and I will ensure it is communicated to the board that it was something that was raised at the committee. I do not disagree with the Deputy. In the first instance, the board has to be confident that the CEO of any organisation understands corporate governance, has a clear understanding about ensuring that the legislative basis upon which the agency is established is adhered to, etc., and has the opportunity to come to the Department and to the committee.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a suggestion rather than a point of concern. I do not mean in any way to be misunderstood in terms of casting aspersions on any previous CEO. It is a suggestion rather than a point of concern, just to be clear.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is how I am taking it and that is why I am saying it is good to amplify those thoughts here. It is certainly something that can be passed on. The broader-based person has more attributes and a better understanding of what is required. I also think it is important that people have a flair for ideas. It is about marketing as well. It is about consuming more fish domestically. There is an element of creativity there, but I take the Cathaoirleach's point.

On the SFPA, it is answerable to this committee. I have no role in how it does its business. In fact, I am precluded under the legislation. However, I am anxious that the SFPA would come before the committee to discuss its constraints, its mandate, how it does its business, how it evaluates risk, how it sees its role and how it sees itself as part of the overall fishing effort and industry. While it has an important role in enforcing domestic and international regulations and needs to be seen to do that, at the same time its work must be seen as fair, robust and proportionate to the risk that exists. I hope it would come and have an open and frank general conversation with the committee about the issues. I fully understand and respect the separation that is there - not that it would matter anyway what my thoughts might be - and how it cannot get into a detailed discussion about a particular case. I mentioned in response to a previous question that we have always found ways to take what might be our concerns about specific matters into a general discussion while maintaining that separation. That is important.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There was a suggestion-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Department undertakes corporate governance oversight. We have corporate governance to ensure that the administration is in accordance with the return standards for State agencies, so that the body is in accordance with the adhered standards. We look at it from an overall corporate governance perspective. The Cathaoirleach's concerns are more about the day-to-day activities. That is something he should be able to question in general terms.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect the Minister of State to respond to this because correspondence will issue in due course, but there is a suggestion that we would invite both him and the SFPA jointly before a committee. That was a suggestion from this committee and from the SFPA. We will issue correspondence in due course.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I can confirm that I would have no issue with being in attendance for such a committee.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials. I thank him for his presentation. I am pleased that he has eventually got approval from the Department of public expenditure relating to the two inshore producer organisations. It is important that they get that recognition. Funding is also included there. I think I have asked this question before, but I want to repeat it. I want to know where the Department stands in relation to inshore fishing for bass, salmon, sea trout and razorfish; razorfish in particular in the north west. They are there in abundance. Unfortunately, and there is a lucrative market, but we must decide sooner rather than later how quickly we can open this. As for the salmon, it has been closed for many years.

We were told at that time that it was closed because of possible overfishing. The pressure came from Iceland, which was going to provide millions by way of compensation for the salmon. Not a penny came. We were foolish enough and the Government was foolish enough to accept its offer that counted for nothing. That is bass, salmon, sea trout and razorfish.

The next issue I want to refer to is the small fishermen. In fact, all fishermen now are only employed a few days a week or a few weeks in the year. Small fishermen are self-employed. Even though the Oireachtas looked at a recommendation to provide jobseeker's assistance, illness benefit and other special welfare benefits for these fishers, it came to nothing. We were told that the fish assist is not taken up by many. Included in that should be jobseeker's allowance because jobseeker's benefit, as we know, depends on contributions. If you have very few contributions, you are not going to be able to avail of that.

I raise the island fisheries (heritage licence) Bill 2017. I know the Minister of State outlined to us that his hands are tied when it comes to the advice and that the Bill is not compatible with Irish and EU legislation, but at least he is prepared to look at that. I would put a time limit on it and hope we can have a look at it and see if there is some way around this. Speaking of social welfare, it is also important that the Minister of State speaks to his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Calleary, about the small harbours which are under the jurisdiction of the local authorities. The only ones under the Minister of State's remit are the sea fisheries harbours, but there are many small ones. We discussed this at a previous meetings.

Section 68 protects the chief executive of the SFPA. He cannot answer any questions on anything to do with cases that were or are in the court. It is strange that it can issue press releases about cases that were successful in the court, but it shies away from cases that are not successful. The Minister of State will have to look closely at section 68 and remove that barrier, if it is a barrier, for us, to whom the sea fisheries authority reports. There is not much point coming here and reporting to us when it cannot report on all issues. We will find out fairly soon. I know it has been said by the Director of Public Prosecutions that it pays the bill, but it only goes on the evidence it receives from the SFPA. Evidence went on for ten full years. Of course it was unfair to the company. It changed the whole issue of weighing fish in the factories as opposed to weighing them at ambient temperature on the piers.

The Minister of State will recall that the first time he visited Donegal, he very kindly and at short notice met with a representative from Burtonport who landed into Burtonport. The issue is still the same. They cannot land on a Saturday, and they are missing markets, largely in the UK. We do not mind if it is a common rule for all of the country, but in Donegal, it is one rule for Inishowen and another rule for west Donegal. I am making the charge today that this is totally unfair and discriminatory. I am asking the Minister of State to have a look at this. Landings into Burtonport should be open from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. on a Saturday because they are open elsewhere. You cannot have force majeureevery Saturday because it does not arise. If you have to go into Killybegs or north Donegal, it is not on. There are plenty of sea fisheries advisers there and they can be there other days of the week, but I am imploring the Minister of State to look at this. I do not expect an answer now, but I ask him to have another look at it and try to ensure there is no discrimination when it comes to Burtonport.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his ongoing participation in this committee and for his advice to all of us around this sector. His knowledge and experience in Donegal, nationally and internationally, is hugely helpful to this sector generally. I thank him for that. He raised issues about bass, salmon, razorfish, clam, etc.

As the Deputy knows, there has been a prohibition on the commercial fishing of bass since the 1990s. In addition, EU vessels are prohibited from fishing for sea bass in Irish waters, in particular in area 7, which includes the Irish Sea, the Celtic Sea and waters south-west of the west coast. There is some recreational fishing but it is all strictly controlled, with only catch-and-release recreational fishing allowed in February and March and a bag limit of two per fisher per day in January and from 1 April to 31 December.

I understand that sea bass stock in Irish waters is at its maximum northerly range and it is considerably smaller than it would be in more southern waters. It is also a slow-growing species, making it particularly vulnerable to overfishing. Consequently, at present, as I understand it, there are no plans to reintroduce commercial fishing of sea bass in the waters around Ireland. However, I will seek an update from the Marine Institute in terms of understanding where the biomass of sea bass and other species are, and we will revert to the Deputy with that information. As he is aware, we are engaged with the Marine Institute in a consistent analysis of the biomass of various species. If anything is likely to change in that regard, based on what the scientific evidence shows, I will happily share it, but I do not want to commit to suggesting that something can be opened if the scientific advice does not support it.

Deputy Gallagher also raised an issue relating to the salmon fishery. As he is aware, the return of salmon to Irish waters has decreased very significantly in recent decades. It is considered that if Ireland had not adopted its management measures, including ending the indiscriminate mixed stock fishing at sea since 2007, the decline would be considerably more. Ireland manages its salmon population on a river-by-river basis, based on robust conservation-focused scientific advice. Our salmon management plan and regime follows international best practice advised by the North Atlantic Salmon Conservation Organization and the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. Any deviation from current policy would be contrary to the international independent scientific advice and could potentially lead to a conflict with the EU and international obligations on the grounds of not protecting vulnerable Irish and international salmon stocks.

The conservation imperative demands that current salmon stocks are not further eroded by mismanagement or inappropriate exploitation whether via angling, commercial fisheries in rivers or through the operation of mixed-stock fisheries at sea or in estuaries. I know from the work I am coming across in the other Department in which I have a role on the inland fisheries side that the stock of salmon coming back in the rivers is not improving, so I do not think the scientific advice will change there.

I understand that the Marine Institute recently provided scientific advice for the razor clam fishery in the north Irish Sea in respect of the current fishing year, 2025-26. Our officials are consulting the Marine Institute and other marine agencies regarding that advice. I will bring it to the attention of the committee when I have further information in that regard.

Deputy Gallagher is right in identifying that I met with people from Burtonport. I was taken with what they were requesting. To be honest, it seemed fair to me, and I will have it looked at again. What Deputy Gallagher said to me, as well as the people I met, is that they did not want it all the time but they need it at certain times of the year when the catch comes ashore. It is about flexibility in the allocation of personnel. We are going to have to look at that. It is something I can engage on with the SFPA.

I am currently looking at other requests in relation to how we might manage Howth Harbour because of its inaccessibility at the moment. The issues with access to Howth, because of the dredging that is required there, are having an impact on certain fishing and landing activity. We are waiting for the EPA licence to come through. We have visited Howth Harbour to examine this issue. I have had a recent representation that I feel warrants designation elsewhere to facilitate it, albeit temporarily. I want to do it. I just need to find a way to do it quickly. The same could apply in Burtonport. I do not want to make a commitment on it but it is something I want to address. We will try to get back to the Deputy relatively quickly on that.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The pollock catching derogation one was the easiest one to answer.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy and the Minister.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is the one I can be more positive on, anyway.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I want to go back to bluefin tuna. The Minister of State was very clear in the discussion earlier about the potential importance of this to the inshore sector. We should be fighting hard to ensure that we have access to some of the quota. I had a look through previous discussions in the Oireachtas on it and this has been an issue since 2015 or even earlier. The responses from the Ministers in 2015, 2016 and 2017 are very similar to the responses we are getting now, so it seems that it has not really progressed hugely.

The Minister of State mentioned a meeting that was held in Seville. Was that the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas, ICCAT, meeting? That was the latest meeting. It would appear from that meeting that it would expect bluefin tuna quotas to increase by close to 20%. I have been doing some searching here. A Minister from Malta said in the media following that meeting that Malta is poised for a major increase in its national tuna quota. She anticipates from the meeting that its quota could rise by as much as 70 tonnes, which is a historic increase that would bring its country's total allocation to more than 500 tonnes. It would appear that the meeting was a critical one, because quotas for individual states were discussed. Could the Minister of State tell us what came out of that meeting for Ireland? I assume we were represented at that meeting.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We were.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How many people represented Ireland at that meeting? Malta had 13 people at it from four different departments.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to come back to Deputy Whitmore on the number of people who represented us there. I got a text or an email late on Saturday explaining that the European share of the TAC had reduced by a very small amount. We had been arguing at the recent Council meeting that the European share should remain the same. I was informed that it had been reduced ever so slightly. It was a reduction in percentage terms but there was an overall increase in the tonnage of the total allowable catch. I assume it is on that basis that Malta has recognised that if the allowable catch goes up, it will have a percentage increase. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to make that assertion, for the simple reason that we did not have a track record and therefore we do not currently have a quota. I am arguing for it at every available opportunity. I have met with the Commissioner on a number of occasions and I have outlined that position in a very direct way to other member states. The experimental scientific work that we have done heretofore in 2019, to which I referred, in terms of catch and release, was an exercise in demonstrating that the fish were in our waters and that we had a justification in seeking quota. To be honest with the Deputy, it is not easy, because for Ireland to get some quota, somebody else will have to see their potential increase drop. I am trying to build alliances with member states. I show goodwill whenever I can on other issues in the hope that we will reach a point when the allocation comes out that we will get some. To the best of my knowledge, the decision that was taken at the weekend was about the split between what Europe will have and what other third countries will have. It is my understanding that the allocation of what member states will get has yet to be determined. I will have to come back to the Deputy on that as I just do not have the clarity to hand.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That would be very useful. I have looked at the list of participants. There are caveats around it, as it is not always clear when we look at documents, but it would appear that we sent one person over. Other countries sent very senior people, and multiple senior people from different departments. I am concerned about that given that it was such an important meeting and coming to a crunch time. My understanding is that this will be decided in December. Is that correct?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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We are coming to a crunch time. We should have had a large contingent of senior people in fighting for us on this.

I am wondering why that decision was not made. I am not saying anything about the person who went over. I am only referring to having a team of people over there who are presenting our case. Surely that meeting would have been an important one to do that.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will check that out, but my understanding was that the exercise at that International Conference on Ecosystems and Biodiversity, ICEB, meeting was about the allocation that Europe would get and the Commission was effectively negotiating that position with the Presidency. The battle lines in terms of quota allocation will be over the next two weeks in background discussions. At political level, I am having those discussions with member states at present and our officials at European level are having those conversations with their counterparts. It comes down to the crunch in December, as the Deputy will be aware, where the Council will go on for a number of days. I cannot give the Deputy clarity on whether an enhanced team would have in any way strengthened our hand for what was ahead, but I am confident that, with the team we have in Brussels, we are fighting to the best of our ability and are putting forward the needs and expectations of our fishermen and women in that regard. I am happy to come back to the Deputy with more detail as to what representation we had there when I establish that.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for this engagement today. We look forward to seeing progress on the various issues.

We have spoken about the concerns of the inshore and islands fishers in how we interpret Article 17 of the Common Fisheries Policy and how we allocate the publicly owned quota that we have. I understand there is a Bord Bia report on hook-and-line mackerel. Is that on the Minister of State's desk? If so, when will it be published? It would demonstrate the potential there.

I want to revisit this issue. We understand we have a profound and unprecedented crisis in terms of mackerel due to the recklessness of a number of countries, namely, Norway, Iceland, the Faroe Islands and Russia. People talk about the British involvement in that, and that is well documented. The Minister of State will be dealing with that in December but it has an impact on what he has available and what he was going to allocated. The reality is that this is a publicly owned quota. It belongs to the Irish people. We have a very large sector of inshore and islands fishers. In terms of their representation on these committees, you have a north-west herring committee where there has been a dispute. I understand the Minister of State decides the membership of these committees, so he obviously listened to the concerns of the inshore and islands fishers. There needs to be an intervention and a fairness in terms of the allocation. Whenever I listen to the inshore and islands communities, they are reasonable about this and they understand, but 400 tonnes out of what was an overall quota of mackerel previously is a very small percentage. It is really small if the Minister of State allocates 400 tonnes across the entire inshore sector. Then there is the whole issue with herring. I want to get a sense of the Minister of State's interpretation of Article 17 of the Common Fisheries Policy. That is what the inshore and islands groups would flag with us. They do not believe that we are adhering to the spirit or intent of Article 17. I want to get a sense of the Minister of State's views on this and how he intends to deal with it and resolve the membership of these committees in a way that takes on board track records and what people have built up but is also much fairer than what is there right now.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. He raised the issue in relation to the allocation. I talked earlier about what I had hoped we would be able to do if there was increased mackerel, which would have assisted the inshore fishery in particular and would have given them a better chance to stay ahead in terms of the costs and what they were facing.

Unfortunately, that did not transpire. The whole thing has been undermined now because of the scientific advice. I do not see in any circumstance being able to increase that 400 tonnes, but it is protected. It is the best we can do in the current climate.

The Deputy talked about the BIM report. That goes back to a belief that there has been a relatively low uptake in the hook-and-line fishery for line-caught mackerel. We believe this should be a premium product that would provide a fairly good return. Unfortunately, the hook-and-line-caught mackerel seems to be going into the pelagic bulk market, which obviously has a lower value. It was on foot of that in 2022 to 2023 that BIM commissioned a report on market opportunities. I think that is the report the Deputy referred to. The initial report did not address all the issues involved and the Department requested that BIM engage with Bord Bia to ensure a comprehensive report was prepared - that has been some of the delay - and bearing in mind the rationale was for the fishery to provide a high-premium product. As the Deputy will know - there is no point in me lecturing him about fishing - hook-and-line-caught fish that have not been trafficked as much through the various systems should be commanding a higher premium and that is what we are trying to get to. The revised draft report from BIM has been received by the Department and is currently being reviewed. I will come back to the Deputy in terms of when we hope to be able to produce that. It was aimed at trying to maximise the return on the 400 tonnes that would be caught with hook and line - a premium product that, as we talked about earlier, you might be able to move into local markets and get a better return on rather than taking a lower price.

As to where we see mackerel trending, due to the recognition it will be much more scarce next year, the price has increased significantly. For inshore fishers who are on the pelagic side, they have seen a massive cut in their quota of 70%. In retaining their 400 tonnes, you could potentially see a doubling of the price, even in the pelagic bulk route if that is the route they go. It could command a higher price if we could assist them with finding more direct access to local markets into the restaurant or artisan space. That is what we are trying to do with that report.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, the Minister of State might not have all the facts available but I ask him to pay attention to that north-west herring committee issue. If the Minister of State does not have a response, he could come back to me.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do. I was reading through it last night. On the north-west policy change in 2022-2023, where quota falls below 7,000 tonnes, 350 tonnes are set aside for the non-ring-fenced vessels under 20 m. Then there are adjustments and swaps. Deductions are not taken into consideration. On the Celtic Sea, the open fishery in the Dunmore box for vessels under 17 m opened on 16 November.

We would be asking the sector to re-engage with the north-west herring committee. I was anxious to try to get that management committee back. I met with some of the lads involved and it was not going in a direction. I will come back to the Deputy in terms of how we might be able to-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It just needs a bit of intervention from the Minister of State.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It does.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is all I would say, if the Minister of State could look at it again.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will try to get people back around the table again.

Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Large piers and harbours come under the remit of the Department. Smaller piers are supposed to come under the remit of local authorities. I know for a fact that the vast majority of local authorities have no budget for piers. They are relying totally on the Department. I know that from my many years as a member of Kerry County Council and from talking to other councillors across the country over many years. I believe there is a need for a specific budget for local authorities for the small piers.

Many of them, to be fair, are falling into a very poor state of repair, are dangerous in some cases, and need remedial and improvement works to be carried out. In regard to a particular pier, I have raised the issue of Kilkeveragh pier in Portmagee previously. It is very old. It was actually built by Trinity College Dublin, funnily enough. It was under Trinity College's remit until the early 1900s. It is in no man's land now and is still used by and important to the local community. If that pier can be investigated and funding found from some source to help the local community to carry out a bit of fishing, marine activity and sport and leisure etc., I would appreciate it.

I have to mention Cromane pier. The campaign there has been going on for well over 100 years. There is no landing facility at all at the pier. Could a pilot scheme or something be initiated there to get that project moving? It was promised many times over many years. The Minister of State is very familiar with the Renard pier project. He came down to look at the slip there. It is important for the use of the ferry. The existing ferry is coming to the end of its lifetime. There is a larger ferry now and the slipway needs to be widened by 3 m. The way things are going, it will not be ready for the 2026 tourist season. That would be devastating for Valentia Island and the local economy, the Skellig ring and the Iveragh Peninsula. It is with the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA. I ask the Minister of State to try to get movement on that project to see if we can have it ready for the 2026 season. When the Minister of State is in discussions with MARA will he also inquire about the position in regard to the slip at Portmagee. An extension is being sought there. Will the Minister of State also inquire about the marina, for which there is also a project?

The Minister of State was discussing mackerel. I watched his contribution at the European Parliament recently. I acknowledge his work in that area. It is very difficult. There is a proposed cut of 70% in 2026. This will follow a 26% cut in 2024 due to Brexit and a 22% cut in 2025. I ask him to keep up the good work there. We need our MEPs, our Government and everyone to fight that one.

I want to ask about a couple of other items. The National Inshore Fishermen's Association has sought a seat on the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority numerous times. One would have thought it would have had a seat on that body before now. Will somebody let me know where that is at? The NIFA should be a member of the SFPA.

I will jump back to Cromane again. I live nearby so it is important to me. Cromane is one of the oldest fishing villages in the country. The salmon licences were bought by the Department a number of years ago. Eleven locals retained their licences and have been actively fishing. This matter was only brought to my attention in the past two days. The locals have been told that it is all over. I think that is wrong. Salmon fishing is one of the oldest traditions in this country. It is not that they are fishing in a commercial sense. I ask that the matter be looked at and that decision reversed. I am conscious of the importance of rod fishermen and all of that. I understand the arguments and the science.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of the time and the Minister of State needs time to respond.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy and appreciate the concerns he raised. In relation to smaller piers and the budget, we had a grant scheme over the years. I hope it will have some funding this year. Generally, the way it operated was that we looked at projects that were shovel ready, up to a maximum cost of €250,000.

The Department would, if it was so minded, cover up to 75% of the cost and the council would put in 25%, up to a maximum contribution of €187,000 from the Department. We put about €4.3 million into that scheme last year. I am hopeful I will have something close to that next year. I encourage county councils to apply for that funding. The issue that arises is that some of these projects need significant ecological analysis and reports to go with them to get planning. They then have to go through MARA for various permissions and licences, which can be costly. The scheme we currently administer does not cover that cost, so that is an impediment. Over time, if I had more moneys available to me, I would like to be able to assist. The Cathaoirleach has shown me a project in his area that very much falls into that area. I do not have any further news on that aspect for the Deputy.

I am conscious that around our coastline there are many piers that need far more than €250,000 to bring them to a safe level. It would be a real pity if we let some of these piers fall into the sea at a time when we are not short of money. That is work I have to do over the coming years to try to get that. That is where it is at.

On the Portmagee site, we will always run into an issue where somebody does not have ownership. The Deputy identified that Trinity College built the pier. I do not know whether Trinity College still claims or has ownership of the pier. It might be worth looking into legal services in Kerry County Council. Maybe there is an opportunity, through adverse possession or some kind of compulsory purchase order, to take ownership of it. If it fell into the ownership of the council, a scheme at a later stage or even the small scheme I talked about might resolve the issue. I offer that comment by way of general advice and not a specific commitment. The officials here are suggesting there is a question mark over the ownership and that will always be an impediment. The Deputy should have a look at that.

The Deputy has raised Cromane with me on a number of occasions. I do not know if the small scheme would be of benefit there or if we need to look at something else. I will engage with the Deputy on that.

Renard pier is a real issue and I want to progress the project. I have been in touch with MARA to have it expedited. MARA is a new agency established to address the foreshore licensing issues that used to be part of the foreshore office previously. New agencies take time to get up to speed. This falls under my area of responsibility and I have been in regular touch with the agency. During the past month alone, I think MARA made ten or 11 decisions, which is a record for it. I hope it will have moved on about 30 decisions by the end of the year.

MARA has been concentrating on the larger offshore renewable requests, which are obviously important from the State's perspective, but I have asked it to look at some of the smaller requests that might never get priority, but are really important to a local area, the pier at Renard being a case in point. It is a tourist attraction overlooking Valentia Island. There is a wonderful little facility there and I know the craft - the ferry - there is reaching the end of its operational life. Renard pier needs a widening of the base. The work to be done there is small. I need to work through how small-scale works like that are being treated in terms of the environmental reports that have to be gone through. That work is not proportionate to the risk of the small-scale works. We need to look at it again. I will continue to encourage MARA to address that issue.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State. Deputy Gallagher has asked to come back in so I am minded to give him 30 seconds.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State referred to engagement he and his officials are having in Brussels on the forthcoming negotiations. I asked the previous Minister for foreign affairs and I got a negative answer because it was not in his remit. Is the Minister of State engaging with the non-coastal European states? While fish is of no interest to them, they have an input into decision-making and we have friends in all of those countries. Rather than have them go along with the recommendation of the Commission, we should contact them now. Are they being contacted? We should not leave it until the day of the cuts.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. This is an issue he has shared with me in the past, in the early stages after my appointment to this position. We have had a programme of engagement over the last while and it continues. We are engaging with the non-coastal states in trying to build alliances. As the Deputy knows from experience, many of those states will be influenced by some of the larger states that have an interest and by where the Presidency is at. We have a programme to try to exert the influence we have, limited and all as it might be. We have good standing at European level and now need to mobilise that. We need to energise our efforts. We have been doing that over the past while and will continue to do so in the time ahead.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire agus le Ms Brennan agus Ms Forrest as ucht bheith inár dteannta. Gabhaim buíochas chomh maith lenár mbaill.

I thank the members who have engaged in this debate and the witnesses, the Minister of State, Ms Brennan and Ms Farrell, for their participation.