Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 13 November 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 31 - Transport
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023
Chapter 9 - Appraisal of Rail Project Investments
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 21 - Collection of Motor Vehicle Taxes
Financial Statements: Motor Tax Account 2024
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning, we will engage with the Accounting Officer of the Department of Transport to discuss its 2024 appropriation accounts. We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Transport: Mr. Ken Spratt, Secretary General, Mr. Garret Doocey, assistant secretary general, land transport; Dr. Keith Walsh, assistant secretary general, road transport services and digital hub; Ms Róisín Cahillane, assistant secretary general, corporate affairs and central policy; and Ms Joanna Cullen, assistant secretary general, Irish Coast Guard.
We are also joined by the following officials who are attending in a representative capacity: Ms Martina Hennessy, assistant secretary general in the Department of Climate, Energy and Environment, and Ms Angela O’Gorman and Ms Leeann Kennedy, principal officers in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. We are also joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Niamh Kilkenny, audit manager.
You are all very welcome to our engagement this morning. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference you may make to other persons in your evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that you have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything you say at the meeting. However, you are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. Again, it is imperative that you comply with any such direction.
I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Go raibh maith agat. The appropriation account for Vote 31 - Transport records gross expenditure of €3.7 billion in 2024. The expenditure was distributed across six expenditure programmes, based broadly on the various transport modes. The majority of the expenditure in 2024 was under programme B, public transport, and programme C, road networks and road safety. Together, these accounted for 84% of the gross spend. This comprised significant capital investment in public transport and roads construction, as well as funding for roads maintenance and public service obligation subsidies.
There was a net underspend on the Vote for 2024 amounting to €154 million. With agreement from the Minister for public expenditure and reform, €115 million in unspent capital allocations was carried over for spending in 2025. This related mainly to capital spending shortfalls in public transport investment, electric vehicle grants and construction of national roads and greenways. The remainder of the surplus for the year, €38.4 million, was liable for surrender to the Exchequer.
I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account. Separately, I drew attention to the disclosure in the statement on internal financial control in respect of non-compliance with procurement rules that occurred in respect of contracts under which €544,000 was spent in 2024.
Separate from the Vote, the Department is responsible for the collection of motor tax receipts and prepares an annual motor tax account to report on this. The receipts into the account are transferred to the Exchequer, as provided for in law, and do not represent additional spending by the Department. Receipts into the account in 2024 totalled €928.6 million and were promptly transferred. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the 2024 account.
The 2024 report before the committee today examines the effectiveness of the controls in place over the collection of motor vehicle taxes. I previously issued a special report on motor tax collection in 2016 and published a follow-up report in 2022. To provide some context, there were around 3.1 million vehicles on the road in Ireland in 2024. The ownership and use of these vehicles gives rise to various taxes and duties, including VAT, vehicle registration tax, VRT, customs duty and motor tax. In 2024, the combined receipts from VRT and motor tax totalled €1.9 billion. A breakdown of VAT and customs duties in respect of motor vehicles is not available. As I just mentioned, receipts of motor tax in 2024 totalled €928.6 million. This included payments of arrears amounting to just over €60 million, which is substantial. Tracking motor tax arrears is a potentially useful indicator of the tax compliance levels. However, the Department does not maintain information on the total value of arrears outstanding at a given point in time. It also does not operate a formal process to follow up on outstanding arrears. Although previously recommended, there is still no system to measure or report on motor tax compliance rates.
We previously reported on some of the ways in which vehicle owners may evade payment of motor tax. This includes deliberate repeat changing of registered ownership of vehicles, perhaps among family members or friends. Arrears of motor tax attach to the owner rather than the vehicle. As a result, any arrears are effectively written off following each ownership change. The Department has estimated that 77,000 vehicles had a change of registered ownership in 2024 following a period untaxed and has estimated the associated loss of arrears at €11.6 million. This is the minimum amount lost in those cases.
Reclassifying a vehicle can also result in the vehicle owner paying less VRT and motor tax and in some cases claiming back the VAT paid at the point of sale. Between 2019 and 2024, on average, just over 1,000 vehicles a year were converted from passenger, or M1, status, to lower tax commercial, or N1, status. The rate of conversions fell by almost a half in 2024, when Revenue took over the registration of these conversions.
The Department’s national vehicle driver file, NVDF, contains key information on vehicles and their owners in Ireland and is relied upon by several public bodies. However, analysing vehicle conversion data from the vehicle file proved challenging. The examination found that inconsistencies arise in the vehicle file data due to the absence of field definitions and the use of optional data fields and free text fields. This in turn impairs the Department’s ability to meaningfully analyse NVDF data and use it as a tool for managing and reporting on tax compliance.
Vehicle misclassification within the current stock of vehicles can be identified using a range of measures, such as targeted reviews or during national vehicle roadworthiness tests. In late 2023, Revenue identified risks of vehicle misclassification during routine processing of VAT repayment claims from garages. The review uncovered two practices of concern leading to the recovery of underpaid VRT, VAT and income tax. A significant number of cases have been identified for further investigation. The examination also found that there is currently no formal process in place for the national vehicle roadworthiness test operators to communicate discrepancies identified with the NVDF data during vehicle testing to the Department. The report recommends that the Department analyses the factors influencing taxpayers to renew motor tax for periods shorter than 12 months. It also recommends that the Department should measure, monitor and report on motor tax compliance rates and the level of motor tax arrears, and that it should consider the scope for automatic issuing of reminders when motor tax is not paid on time.
Chapter 9 of my report on the accounts of the public services for 2023 reviews the extent to which capital project appraisal requirements, set out in the Department of public expenditure’s public spending code, were applied to two multi-annual public transport projects of varying scale. The examples we reviewed were the MetroLink railway project and the Limerick-to-Foynes freight line restoration project. Members may wish to note that the public spending code was replaced by the infrastructure guidelines at the start of 2024. Although the process involved in arriving at the current MetroLink project proposal has been protracted, the project demonstrated, at the time of the examination, appropriate compliance with the relevant capital investment appraisal requirements. By the end of July 2024, around €181 million had been expended on the MetroLink project. By comparison, the examination found a high level of non-compliance with the key public spending code requirements for the Foynes project. In particular, a project business case had not been completed prior to the project commencing or to the issuing of funds for the first phase.
The business case report was only completed after the second phase of the project became the responsibility of the National Transport Authority. At the time of the examination, the estimated cost of making the line operational was around €152 million for both phases, with an expected completion date of December 2025. By end-July 2024, expenditure of €78 million had been incurred on the project. The Accounting Officer will be able to update the committee on the expenditure incurred to date on each of these projects and on their current status and timeline.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I invite Mr. Ken Spratt, Secretary General, to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department of Transport. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
Go raibh maith agaibh, a Chathaoirligh agus members of the committee. I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to discuss the 2024 appropriation account for Vote 31 - Transport, and two chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2023 and 2024 reports on the accounts of the public services. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office for their work in auditing the appropriation account and on the reports on the accounts of the public services.
The Department has grown significantly in recent years, reflecting the scale of the Department’s responsibilities and the need to address new challenges. By the end of 2024 the Department comprised a staff of 692, with 19 State agencies under the Department’s aegis. We have worked to strengthen our capacity to deliver on our remit and to ensure that our agencies have the resources to deliver on their key objectives.
The Department’s mission, as set out in our statement of strategy, is, "To deliver an accessible, efficient, safe and sustainable transport system that supports communities, households and businesses." In 2024, the Department secured an overall budget of €3.7 billion, comprising over €1 billion in current funding and €2.7 billion in capital funding. The Department also had a capital carryover of €141 million in 2024. A total of €38 million was surrendered at the year end with a further €115 million capital being carried into 2025.
Expenditure was managed across six programmes in the transport Vote. Programme A is sustainable mobility – active travel and greenways. The outturn of this programme was €402.2 million, which supported investment in national cycle right training, the NTA's smarter travel programme and bike week. It facilitated over 1,000 grants for cycling and walking to 31 local authorities, with over €370 million invested in hundreds of active travel and greenways projects across the country, including the North West Greenway Network, Lakelands to Boyne Valley and Midleton to Youghal greenways. The national cycle network plan was published in January 2024, while round 3 of the safe routes to schools programme was launched, adding 141 schools to the programme.
Programme B is sustainable mobility – carbon reduction and public transport, and had an outturn of €1.737 billion. There was strong growth in public transport passenger numbers throughout 2024 and in October public transport surpassed 1 million PSO passengers a day for the first time ever. Public transport networks were further expanded and improved, with 14 new and 28 enhanced Connecting Ireland services implemented in rural areas. Enhancements were introduced across the PSO network throughout 2024 and phase 6a of the BusConnects network redesign roll-out in Dublin commenced service in late September with the new orbital N2 route, operated by Go-Ahead Ireland. Over €900 million of public transport investment funding enabled construction, asset purchases and electrification of public transport fleet, and associated infrastructure in 2024, including progression of the Cork area commuter rail, fleet for BusConnects Dublin and other urban areas, bus depot electrification, next generation ticketing, park and ride facilities, the upgrading of Galway Ceannt Station and DART+ fleet, and the protection and renewal of the rail network to provide for a safe and secure rail system.
Programme C is road networks and road safety. It had an outturn of €1.372 billion which funded extensive investments in current and capital maintenance for the national, regional and local road networks. The Dunkettle interchange, Listowel bypass and N56 Dungloe to Glenties projects were completed. Preferred bidders for the Adare bypass and M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy projects were selected. Ongoing maintenance and improvement activities took place on the existing national roads network to ensure that it is safeguarded, with road safety being a top priority. A sum of €692 million was allocated to local authorities for the delivery of regional and local roads projects. This facilitated the rehabilitation and maintenance of 5,594 km of road and bridge projects, as well as the construction progression of larger NDP projects such as Shannon crossing, Killaloe bypass and the R494 road improvement in counties Clare and Tipperary, Coonagh to Knockalisheen distributor road in Limerick city, and the Tralee northern relief road in County Kerry. This programme also funded zero emission vehicles Ireland’s various schemes to incentivise the uptake of electric vehicles, EVs, home charging and public charging roll out.
Programme D is civil aviation. The outturn of €32.5 million under this programme continued to support Ireland’s smallest airports which provide connectivity and handle fewer than one million passengers per annum. A new regional State airports sustainability programme was published for Shannon Airport and Cork Airport, and includes support for two solar photovoltaic, PV, farm projects, which when complete will provide up to 25% of both airports' current electrical demand from renewable energy. There was continued support for Donegal to Dublin PSO air services, with the current contract extended to 2026. This targeted Exchequer funding has supported strong growth across our regional airports in 2024 with passenger numbers currently 7% above last year.
Programme E is maritime transport and safety. The outturn under this programme was €110.9 million and related to the Coast Guard, Irish Lights and maritime safety. Funding supported the Coast Guard search and rescue service as well as the activities of the 44 Coast Guard volunteer teams located around the coast. The Coast Guard responded to 2,556 incidents in 2024. Funding also supported ongoing investment in Coast Guard stations as well as lighthouses and other aids to navigation. In the maritime sector, the transition to the new Irish Coast Guard aviation service contract progressed with the transfer of the Shannon search and rescue base to the new contractor, Bristow Ireland Limited, during quarter 4 2024, and Weston in June of this year. The priority during the ongoing transition of the remaining two search and rescue bases of Sligo and Waterford remains the safe and effective transfer of operations without interruption to this essential State service. The expanded aviation service will significantly enhance the Coast Guard’s capabilities, including inland and maritime search and rescue, aeromedical support for the HSE, day and night time support for island communities, environmental monitoring and new aerial firefighting capacity.
Programme F is information technology, engagement and research delivery. The outturn was €47.8 million. Funding under this programme supported the delivery of a number of important services to the public by the Department, including the collection of motor tax and management of change of vehicle ownership requests, and some delivered by our agencies, in particular driver licensing by the Road Safety Authority. In 2024, we successfully processed 1.2 million transactions for change of vehicle ownership requests, marking an increase of 41,000 annually. Our new online change of vehicle ownership service was launched, which uses MyGovID for identity verification, enabling the seamless transfer of vehicle ownership for citizens.
We collected €928 million via motor tax online, an annual increase of 1.9%, processing 4.4 million motor tax transactions, an increase of nearly 180,000 year on year. In 2024, 87% of motor tax payment transactions were conducted online, highlighting our success in driving digital adoption and improving user experience. Over 8 million regulatory and customer supporting documents were issued, including over 4 million motor tax discs, 1 million vehicle registration certificates, penalty point notices, motor tax renewal notices, certificates of roadworthiness and certificates of vehicle destruction.
I welcome the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report on vehicle taxation, chapter 21 of the 2024 report on the accounts of the public services. As I have noted, my Department collects almost €1 billion every year on behalf of the Exchequer. I am encouraged that the annual audits of the motor tax system by both the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Local Government Audit Service have been positive year on year.
Nearly nine in ten motor tax transactions take place on motortax.ie, which is many people’s only direct contact with my Department. We work closely with the local authority staff in the motor tax offices to provide a robust and user-friendly service, both online and offline. As Accounting Officer, I accepted the four recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General in the chapter and I have proposed timelines for implementation as soon as possible. I look forward to implementing the recommendations of the audit to further strengthen and enhance the service we provide to the public.
The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the appraisal of rail project investments highlighted aspects of the various rules applied by the Government to the development of projects and noted differences in the approaches adopted in respect of two projects, namely, MetroLink and the Foynes freight line. As a Department, we are acutely conscious of the need to ensure good governance and appropriate accountability for the expenditure of the public moneys with which we are entrusted. We are also very aware of the need to strike the appropriate balance between delivery and process integrity. Challenges can and do arise in trying to strike that balance. We strive to avoid adding time and delay, a theme which has also been raised by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform’s accelerating infrastructure task force.
On the Foynes line project, having highlighted the processrequirements and how best to deliver within the process, we were given a ministerial decision and acted to implement that decision as efficiently as possible. Work on the project is continuing on-time and within budget. The project will fulfil Ireland’s legal obligation under the TEN-T regulation to connect the port of Foynes with the national rail network, complementing the investment planned in the Foynes to Limerick road infrastructure which has already started with the Adare bypass element under construction.
Significant progress was made in 2024 in supporting existing services; progressing major construction projects through various stages of planning; preparation; permitting and construction; and developing key strategies for new areas of investment and service delivery, such as strategic EV infrastructure. There is a strong continuity of investment and strategic direction from last year. The Department will be seeking to ensure we maintain the momentum we have built in delivering safe, secure and accessible transport networks that serve all our citizens’ needs.
Before I conclude, Chairman, I add that the brief is quite wide. I have four of my assistant secretary colleagues here today. With his permission and through the Chair, occasionally – and probably more than occasionally – I will be diverting some questions from members to some of my assistant secretaries, if that is acceptable to the Chair and committee.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is, and I thank Mr. Spratt for that. To note, we will suspend the meeting for about ten to 15 minutes around 12 noon or just thereafter and will resume shortly afterwards.
I now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Bennett, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits, at the conclusion of that, I will allow members back in for a second round.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everybody from the Department of Transport here today for our questions and thank them for coming in.
I went through the Department's documents and the one thing that stood out to me in respect of nearly every Vote was that the Department surrendered money. In the first programme, in Vote 31, it surrendered €38.37 million. Could the witnesses tell me how much they returned under greenways? There was also an underspend, which Mr. Spratt has just discussed, of €59 million on EV grants. You would think there would definitely be no return on that when we are trying to meet climate action goals.
Can Mr. Spratt tell me why there was underspending and what projects were all those underspends for? Why was it not spent on what it was budgeted for?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I might take the EVs first and ask Ms Cahillane if she could check the surrendered €38.8 million on the greenways piece, if that is available. We surrendered a significant amount on EVs. To give some context on that, there was a decline in EV sales. There was a global decline in EV sales in 2024 which was reflected in the Irish market. Various factors were at play in 2024, which impacted on EV take-up, including misinformation on EV performance. There was quite a lot of anxiety around EV range, which to our mind was misinformed. There was uncertainty about charging infrastructure and rapid changes in the EV market. Increase in competition in the EV market globally has meant the proliferation of models and a strong price competition.
In 2025, the committee will be glad to hear we have seen a welcome return to growth in Ireland and worldwide. There is an increased confidence among consumers in the technology itself. The cars are offering increased range and there is greater assurance regarding battery life, which is impacting on resale values.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to get to the nitty gritty of the €59 million the Department did not spend which it budgeted for. What was that for?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was that not spent?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the greenway projects, was there an underspend there?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I do not have the figures the Deputy happens to have in front of her but my information is, in terms of 2024, there was approximately €87 million allocated to the greenways. The outturn spend was approximately €70 million and then we carried €14.5 million into 2025.
The greenways programme, as a whole, is a programme. There are several projects in it - up to about 70 from memory - and we tend to manage things in land transport, be it on the greenways, the active travel in the urban centres, public transport or the roads programme, on a programme basis rather than individual projects at the departmental level.
Money tends to move between. If there is underspend in one element of the programme, such as the greenways - albeit some was carried over this year - we would move across that active travel.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department allowed to move that between or through Votes?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There are two aspects to it. Programme A covers both active travel and greenways. If there is an underspend in the greenways, which tend to be the rural greenways, and if there is an opportunity to spend it in the urban active travel programme - which is the much larger part of the programme and there generally is - we will move money within the subhead. That is not a virement. If there are opportunities within the wider programme, such as moving it from programme A to programme B, public transport, we will also take that opportunity or indeed to programme C. That, however, is a virement and that would be part of the Estimates process.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Going local, for myself, we had a plan back in 2017 and 2018 for a greenway from Clones right through to Middletown. That still has not gone ahead and I see the Department is returning money now so I cannot understand this.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There can be a number of issues with the development of greenways. I know the Oireachtas joint committee met a delegation of local community groups yesterday, which can impact the delivery of greenways.
The Ulster greenway, to which the Deputy refers, is made up of a number of different interlinked projects, including the one the Deputy has just mentioned. There are five sections of that greenway in total. Elements of the overall project are moving at different paces, one of which is definitely moving into construction next year. I can come back to the Deputy and specify which exact element of that it is, it has just fallen out of my head at the minute. Other ones are progressing at a slower pace. There has been some flood risk identified in one of the sections and I am aware that has also delayed progress.
If projects are ready to go, money will be spent.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department surrendered €38.37 million but had an overspend of €33.8 million in active travel. Did one of them transfer to the other?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Moving on, regarding motor tax, at present the Department collects receipts. Is that usually manual in offices, and then there is also motor tax online, is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am wondering about the fines. The Department seems to charge nearly as much in motor tax fines. Would I be correct in saying it is about €35 million a year in motor tax fines?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
That surcharge is in place for a number of different reasons but the primary reason, from the Department's point of view, is that there is an administrative cost to processing every application or payment for motor tax and then sending out the motor tax disc to individuals, in particular-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The people who cannot afford to pay the total amount of the motor tax for one year in one block are being penalised for paying four times a year. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department making €35 million from that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is Dr. Walsh happy to see that people who are under financial strain are being charged more?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
It reflects the fact that there is a higher cost to the Department, or to the motor tax offices involved in processing returns twice or four times a year. I will add one other thing. We are planning, hopefully next year, to do away with the requirement to display a physical disc in car windscreens when we go paperless. When we go paperless, that will take out a big chunk of the Department's costs because-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There will be no administration fees then.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will people still get charged even though everything is going online?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
That will be a matter we will have to discuss with our colleagues in the Department of Finance. The Minister for Finance sets the motor tax rates, including the level of surcharge, but when we go paperless, it opens up opportunities to have a look at this. A big chunk of our cost is the cost of posting out the discs to people, so if we are doing less of that-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Walsh clarify the surcharge figure for 2024? A figure of €35 million was given. Can he confirm that figure?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was €35 million for surcharges. Out of a total intake of €928 million, the Department made €35 million in surcharges.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just think it is very unfair that people are getting charged because they cannot afford to pay in one full year or to pay it on a yearly basis.
People are really struggling because they have to pay taxes on their car, as well as taxes on their wages. Tolls are now going up in price as well. Do tolls come under the Department? Who benefits from that additional money people are being charged?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who tells TII to set it?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The consumer price index. It is set by the consumer price index in the preceding 12 months. We had a period, prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, when that was basically zero or negligible and, therefore, there was not much movement in tolls. The CPI has moved subsequent to that, which has seen a knock-on consequence in terms of toll rates.
On where the money goes, there is a slight difference or nuance between the PPP toll schemes and those toll schemes that are non-PPP, that is, the Dublin tunnel and the West-Link.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is PPP the public-private partnership?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is privatisation of our roads. Is the toll money going to private companies or the Government?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the State get any of that money back?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Recommendations were made in the C and AG's report in 2016. These are still in progress. What is going on there in the recommendations not being carried through yet?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are these from 2016?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
Mr. Spratt has covered it quite well. That report in 2016 found a number of issues, which, collectively with the other partners involved in this, we have tried to address. One of the challenges in motor tax administration is that it is right across a good number of different Departments and agencies. The Department of Transport has a role; we run the motor tax website. Local authorities run the motor tax offices and there is obviously a role for the Department of local government there as well. Revenue has a key role in registration. A number of different agencies are responsible for implementation of those recommendations. The other thing that has changed since 2016-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The recommendations have not been completed yet.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department not under some kind of authority, or under a Minister, where these recommendations would have be carried out?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
The C and AG, pretty much every year, would look for updates from us on those recommendations. Some of them are implemented, some are part-implemented and some are a work in progress. The C and AG, in his new report, covers them quite well and made a series of four new recommendations that we, through the Accounting Officer, have accepted and are going to implement.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit of a joke. The Department has recommendations about recommendations and is not implementing the recommendations. At this stage of the game, if this has been going on since 2016, do you not think the Department should have carried out what was asked of it?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
The key point is the most recent report has overtaken the previous reports and has identified what now needs to be done in this space. Four recommendations were made, which have overtaken those, all of which we have agreed to do and all of which we will implement by 2027 at the latest.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to rail and rail project investments. I just noticed the Foynes line and MetroLink failed in quite a few of the appraisals. Why would that have been? Project appraisal requirements were not followed.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there not one guideline for all railways?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There were differences in approaches taken between the MetroLink project and the Foynes project. That was in the context of the manner in which both projects were brought forward. The infrastructure guidelines have succeeded the public spending code, as the C and AG referred to. That applies to public investment. They are guidelines, at the end of the day. In terms of the Foynes project, and as Mr. Spratt stated in his opening speech, there was engagement between the Department and the Minister with respect to the Foynes line project. Issues were discussed and a decision was arrived at. We implemented that decision as expeditiously as possible within relevant guidelines. Money was allocated to the Foynes line under phase 1, as noted in the report-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would that have anything to do with Adare and the golf there next year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was that not speeded through?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
On the Adare bypass, the Deputy is right to highlight that the Ryder Cup is taking place in 2027 at that location. That was a prime reason behind the Adare bypass acceleration. The Foynes line was in the context of fulfilling Ireland's legal obligation under the trans-European transport network, TEN-T, regulation to connect the ports to the rail network.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No guidelines were needed because there was a golf-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would to show the officials something. I would love if we could have a golf-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy should watch the time.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In the county I come from, Monaghan, I would love if we could have a golfing project to ensure that a railway got rushed through. I am showing a map of Ireland. In counties Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal, there is no railway network whatsoever. The rest of the country has a railway network; we have no railway network in that part of the country. Maybe the officials will think about why that is before I come in on my next line of questioning. Is that okay?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When was it decided on?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
In 2022, we had been considering the connection of Foynes Port to Limerick for a number of years. There is some important background context. We are required, under EU regulation, to ensure our core ports are connected by 2030.
That has been a long-standing EU requirement. It is mentioned in the national planning framework, NDP 2020, NDP 2025 and our national ports policy. They all commit to this link. The climate action plan is looking for the decarbonisation of rail freight so that was a factor. It is important to note it was an all-island strategic rail review that has come forward with suggestions, and the connection of Shannon Foynes Port was mentioned in that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was the north of the island mentioned?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Bennett will have the opportunity in the second round.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not find it acceptable. I want Mr. Spratt to know that it is not acceptable that the north part of Ireland has no railway network at all.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Bennett will have an opportunity if time permits in the second round.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here and acknowledge the number of assistant secretaries present. It is not always the case. I want to note that and that it is appreciated. Like Deputy Bennett, I also have no train station, rail line or, indeed, golf course in my constituency but I might return to those local issues later in the questioning.
This week the Minister brought forward the proposal to Cabinet in regards to a designated activity company, DAC, which will facilitate the delivery of MetroLink. Witnesses will be aware of this committee's reports on MetroLink and, as a result, our concerns about how we would monitor the spending on that project going forward. Can they briefly outline how the existence of that stand-alone DAC might assist us in terms of the spending?
Something that has been discussed by the committee is the difficulty trying to identify the level of funding going into specific infrastructure projects for example, the MetroLink project, which is a very significant level of spending. Is there a reason that is not a subheading within the appropriation account?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I thank the Deputy. In terms of the establishment of the MetroLink DAC, we watched what has happened with other very significant infrastructure projects and what we learned was the importance of having people we can tap on the shoulder and say that they are responsible for this and there is no confusion about who is responsible. Mr. Doocey will go through the options we considered before we decided to recommend the DAC. We do believe it will help us and, therefore, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General in the monitoring of that project.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Spratt accept that ultimately he is directly responsible?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Spratt happy that the DAC, the chief executive and the employees of that DAC will be fully accountable to this committee?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Spratt address my question relating to the subheading?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We are only asking for one.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The Deputy has raised a good point with the MetroLink and the appropriation account. We are definitely going to have to think about something. When we get to approval gate 3, AG 3, of the infrastructure guidelines, that is when we have a set budget and we say to the Government and the public what the budget for the project is, what benefits we expect to accrue from the project are and when we are going to measure ourselves from. That will need to be reflected in our appropriation account for a project of this scale. We absolutely take the point. It is something we have been considering and discussing with our colleagues.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We need to build confidence in this project. In large parts of north Dublin, people do not believe this project will ever be completed when, in reality, we are getting to a point where the rubber will start to hit the road or whatever the equivalent rail analogy is. It is important that we have confidence around what money will be spent going forward. I believe a subheading would assist this committee and others in monitoring it.
Regarding projects like BusConnects, it can be really difficult for us to drill down into whether that is actually having an impact on the ground. I will give an example. I acknowledge I intended to raise the latest phase 7 in my own area today. NTA officials were good enough to meet me yesterday on the issue so I do not intend to take up time in the meeting to do that. However, it is an example of how it can be difficult to find out whether there is additionality being funded. Is this a replacement of services? Are new services being given to the NTA and on to Dublin Bus? The failure to have that level of detail in the accounts can make it difficult for us as public representatives to monitor what value we should be getting.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Again, the Deputy has raised a good point in terms of how we communicate the benefits that are coming from the expenditure of public moneys, particularly when we talk about the quantum of public moneys in projects like Busconnects. The Deputy may recall from the previous iteration of the Committee of Public Accounts, there was a commitment given to submit a report, I believe annually but possibly every six months, to the committee outlining progress in the implementation of BusConnects, reporting on the benefits and reporting against the benefits that were expected. One of those reports did go in prior to the dissolution of the previous Dáil and another one should go in before the end of this year. What we have seen in the-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That sounds like a longer gap than six months.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The dissolution of the Dáil would not have impacted the delivery of the project.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
No, it would not have. However, it would have potentially impacted the administrative processes around it. The Deputy is right; it has to happen every six months if that is the commitment. We need to ensure it is every six months. We are seeing uplift in passenger numbers on BusConnects. We are seeing more kilometres put into the network. We are seeing more people connected to more places, which was at the heart of it. There has, without a doubt, been disruption and some people feel that there has been disadvantages by some elements of it, as the Deputy probably knows. NTA officials are open to listening to feedback from elected public representatives and local communities to see what can be done subsequent to the implementation of BusConnects. However, BusConnects is seeing great results, and we will make sure that report comes into the committee every six months.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not intend to get into this much of the issue but I cannot allow it be put on the record that BusConnects is getting great results and not acknowledge the huge impact in my constituency for the past three weeks of the totally unacceptable delivery of phase 7. To be fair, the NTA has acknowledged the very significant problems in the past few weeks.
I want to move on to another project, which will hopefully deliver light rail to my constituency, which is the Finglas Luas project. The railway order has been granted. If there is no judicial review, and as we have a budget for 2026, what will the allocation for Finglas Luas be in 2026 given that it was always going to be a post-2027 project, which I accept? Surely, the Department cannot allow a project with full planning not be worked on for a year or two while waiting for a budget. I want a commitment that there will be a budget next year for that. If that is not a matter the witnesses can answer for, I am happy to put it to the Minister.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
We will publish our NDP sectoral plan over the coming weeks. They are being published in a staggered way by Departments. We are up at the end of November. That will set out the allocation we have over the course of the next five years, including 2026. I want the committee to understand that, although we have €24.3 billion to spend over the course of the next five years, it is actually about €13 billion to €14 billion less than what we looked for. What we looked for included everything we could possibly do over the course of the next five years, including Finglas Luas. In that, we will have 22 projects that are in excess of €200 million, which will be either delivered or in construction by the end of 2030. We also have 22 roads projects over €200 million, which will either be in construction or delivered between now and 2030. When it comes to the prioritisation of that, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out with our Ministers where is the biggest bang for buck service delivery. It is absolutely the case that projects like Finglas Luas will deliver big bang for the buck, but it has to be considered in the overall context of what is available throughout.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Spratt saying the details of that will be in the sectoral plan?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
It is important to note that, as Mr. Spratt said, the sectoral plan will set out the detail. The Deputy is right to highlight the fact the project with a railway order was originally proposed in the GDA transport strategy for a post-2030 construction start date. That is something, within the envelope we have been given, we are looking to accelerate. All the details will be when it issues.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Except it will only be more expensive the longer we wait.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
That is a fact. It is also a fact we have to operate within an envelope. However, in that envelope we are looking to accelerate projects we can accelerate. Luas Finglas is an example of a project that could potentially be accelerated from its previously committed date of post 2030 to a pre-2030 construction date.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I have no time to talk to the officials about motor tax but I might come back in the second round on that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the representatives who are here. I will start on motor tax, to pick up on Deputy McAuliffe's final point. Looking at the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations, which I note the Department has accepted, on the compliance, lack of tracking and so on, what do the officials estimate the non-compliance rate is?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is one of the key points the Comptroller and Auditor General is raising. That we cannot make a clear estimate of the non-compliance rate is very serious. The Department said it had some indicators. Can it give us some idea of what it is estimating the non-compliance to be?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
I do not have specific figures to give the Deputy but we are looking at range of different databases that are available to us. Some of them are collected by different agencies of the State. We are using those to compare. The Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland, for example, estimates the number of uninsured vehicles on the roads was about 8% two years ago and has dropped to around 4% now. We look at those sorts of things and we compare them, but it is one of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations in his report that we do this and we are going to be developing exactly those kind of compliance measures. As Mr. Spratt said earlier we will deliver on that either in 2026 or by early 2027 at the latest.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At this time the Department is not in a position to give any estimate of non-compliance.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is obviously totally unacceptable but the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed that out.
On the point raised earlier on the surcharge on those who tax their car twice or four times a year, if you are in band E, which is by no means the most expensive, it is €750 per year to tax your vehicle. If you do it four times a year it will come in at €844, which is €94 extra. I strongly argue that disproportionately impacts lower income families - people who have older vehicles, for example, where there is a higher tax rate and so on. The officials mentioned the justification for this is administration costs but if someone taxes their vehicle online what level of administration cost is involved in that?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I take the point, which was made by Deputy Bennett as well. If we are doing it four times a year there is a postage cost, which might seem insignificant but it really does all add up. If you are having to administer and post out four times in the year it is just administratively and from a post cost perspective more expensive. Having said that, Dr. Walsh said earlier in his response to Deputy Bennett we are moving to paperless discs. Paperless discs will allow us to look at that and we think they will allow us make very significant savings we can pass on to the people who unfortunately have to tax more often.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate there is a certain administration cost but surely it does not add up to €94 for a single vehicle. Again, the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out the Department should examine the influences over people in terms of why they tax their vehicle a number of times per year. I would argue affordability is a key issue there and we are penalising people who have affordability issues. It needs to be looked at quite urgently.
I move the high level of spend on projects prior to construction. A number of examples were given in terms of the Foynes rail line, the lack of a business case and the high amount of expenditure incurred. I think there is an article on the DART upgrade mentioning €150 million spent prior to construction. Significant amounts have been spent prior to construction and I would argue a lot of this funding is spent on external consultants carrying out various reports and reviews. Do the officials have any estimate of how much of their overall budget is spent on external consultants?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
It is important for us to ensure we have all of our ducks in a row before we commit to going to procurement for big projects. We have to deal with a lot of national permitting requirements and planning requirements and a lot of EU regulations and directives as well. It is really important we get through the planning system as efficiently as we possibly can and avoid legal challenge. In order for us to do all that we have to procure expertise by way of contractors who come in to help us ensure we get through - and all with maximum value for money for the taxpayer, the Irish citizen, in mind.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not being rude but I am caught for time, so does Mr. Spratt have any estimate of how much of his overall budget of between €3 and €4 billion is spent on external consultants from the various agencies like TII, NTA and so on, under the transport heading?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We will probably have to come back to the Deputy on the specifics of that. There is a huge cost involved in any mega project, whether it is MetroLink, DART or BusConnects, from the conceptual stage to the construction stage. There is a massive cost in terms of the planning, design, environmental compliance, etc. We can try to come back to the Deputy with the specific breakdown of what element of that cost, which will always be incurred, is being incurred through consultancy versus in-house. I will try to come back to him.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, there is a theme coming through of a lack of tracking there. We are not in a position to say how much is spent on external consultants. That says there is not an analysis taking place of how much is spent on various projects.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If you could furnish them to the committee.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the theme of funding and expenditure prior to construction, what level of projects have been abandoned after significant expenditure? I mean projects that have been stalled permanently. Can the officials give us any idea of that?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The ones that most prominently spring to mind are metro north back in 2011 and DART underground, also in 2011. They were projects that were brought through the planning process and significant expenditure was incurred. From memory it was about €150 million on metro north. I can confirm that in writing. That successfully received a railway order and then a government decision was taken not to proceed with the projects. That was obviously in the context of the economic and financial crisis at the time. More recently, in terms of projects we would have brought through, there are none that spring to mind where there was significant expenditure of public money on projects that have not been progressed to construction. There are projects, absolutely, that have seen significant expenditure and are now subject to judicial review or delays, etc., but none where a project has gone to government and government has said we are not going to go ahead with that project, or none that spring to mind.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Doocey went back to 2011 and those cases are well-publicised, but is he saying there have not been any projects abandoned in the last number of years where money had been spent on exploration and so on?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Not significant amounts of money in the context of the likes of a MetroLink or a DART. There can absolutely be smaller-scale projects at very early stages in a process whereby there may be local community engagement on, say, a walking and cycling route or a potential road alignment and changes have been made to a particular project - and potentially significant changes - on foot of those engagements, but as far as effective abandonment of a project is concerned, nothing springs to mind. We will definitely come back to the Deputy with detail if one comes back to us when we go back to the office.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to focus on public transport and the bus service in particular. I am going to be a little parochial. There are significant issues in Cork with the bus service provided through the NTA and Bus Éireann to do with reliability and passenger dissatisfaction with the service. These have been going on for many years. We have been told there is a driver shortage, etc.
In terms of value for public money, I note the turnout overall is €1.737 billion in terms of public transport. What are the penalties for the service provider when it is failing to provide an adequate service?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Public transport services are regulated by the NTA and provided by operators. As the Deputy has said, in the case of Cork city, Bus Éireann is the operator. These services are provided under contract with the NTA. The contracts are published. There is a long list of schedules to those contracts, and they deal with things like performance expectations, key performance indicators, etc. There are also penalties imposed on operators if they do not meet the key performance thresholds that are set within the contract. In the case of Bus Éireann, it received significant penalties last year and possibly in 2023 in relation to performance issues. Other operators have also been penalised, including private operators who operate publicly subvented services. I have the details in the pack. I can come back to the Deputy on how much in financial penalties has been imposed in 2024. However, they are imposed on operators.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Doocey is referring to significant penalties for Bus Éireann nationwide. Does he know about Cork specifically? Have there been penalties imposed?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Penalties are one thing, but what are we doing to improve the service level? People are saying to me realistically that their sons and daughters are buying cars because the service provided is too unreliable to take them to college, school, appointments and so on. That is a damning indictment of our public transport system in 2025. What is being done to improve the service level?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will highlight three aspects in relation to that. I will take Cork as the example. There are fixes that can be put in, like timetable fixes and reliability fixes like putting an extra bus on a route to try to pick up and address punctuality issues. That is one element that has been introduced in Cork. A second element is small fixes in terms of potential adjustments that can be made to parking, traffic flow and traffic arrangements by the local authority. There were suggestions put to the local authority in Cork city. I know a number of them were implemented as well - not all - but a number were. Third, I again highlight the benefits. We have spoken about BusConnects. BusConnects at its heart is about increasing the frequency of services, expanding the network and, importantly, providing infrastructure that sits alongside that which guarantees reliability. Reliability is at the heart of people's trust in the public transport system. If we do not get the reliability right, people will not use the system. That is BusConnects and core bus corridors.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, and I would appreciate if Mr. Doocey would clarify the penalties as they relate to Bus Éireann.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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As a north County Dublin woman and a representative for Fingal I am hugely focused on transport. I will talk about communication and transparency. In terms of parliamentary questions there is a distinct lack of responsiveness from the NTA and Irish Rail in particular. It is not as bad from Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. Typically, I am getting responses from them in a month or six weeks. I have had some that have taken three months. I am now spending quite a bit of time continuing to follow up with them, and it is simply not good enough. In addition, the NTA is supposed to publish its quarterly reports on its website. However, so far this year only quarter 1 has gone up. To my mind that is an administrative exercise. I do not understand why they are not up there within a week or two of the quarter ending. I would appreciate if the Department would emphasise to the bodies under its aegis the importance of promptly responding to our parliamentary questions and publishing the quarterly reports on its website. They should be open and transparent for the public.
I echo Deputy McAuliffe's comments on metro. I know the Department and the Minister are actively progressing it. As someone who is from north County Dublin, I welcome that. However, will they confirm if the dedicated body that will be set up will be subject to the audit of the C and AG? Will this committee have remit to summon that body here? Similarly, will the operating company be audited by the C and AG, and will we also have remit?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I will get in touch about the timeliness of replies. I will be sure to write, and I will copy the Deputy with my letter to the bodies she has mentioned. On MetroLink, the money will be funded through our Vote. I will be personally responsible for all of that funding, and I am more than happy to be. As regards audit by the C and AG and remit and the operating company, my intention would be to maximise transparency to ensure the full rigour of public financial procedure monitoring is brought. That is something we will consider in the progression of the legislation, but I would expect it to be the case that it would be auditable. We can work on that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is both the delivery body and the operating company.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
One thing to clarify is that there are some issues that require resolution with regard to the ultimate form of the delivery body as well. Deputy McAuliffe has left, but he made reference to a designated activity company, DAC. The actual legislative form of whether it will be an authority or a DAC is still to be decided. Some of the issues Deputy Boland raised and which Mr. Spratt has mentioned are still to be decided, such as C and AG oversight. We want transparency. We want accountability. That is the rationale. That is the fundamental reason we are making this change. Absolutely, in the legislation establishing the delivery body, we will have a section that says, as you do with other agencies and CSPs, that the chair and CEO are required to come into the Oireachtas if invited. Our concern as the project is commencing its next phase is whether we have that line of sight and direct line accountability right now. We need to have it so we will take those views on board in terms of the development of legislation.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is about making sure this project happens and there is value for money. This is a project that has been mooted since my father's time in the eighties. We really need to make sure we are progressing. I know the Department is, but we have to make sure that we have public confidence in this project. We have a number of bodies that we do not have remit over; therefore, I think with metro it is essential that we do.
On subhead B4, public transport, 26% of the expenditure is under this heading. There is little information in the accounts as to the key projects. I would say the accounts are compliant but not particularly informative or transparent. Again, it is important that we can interrogate them properly to understand if we are getting value for money.
I will talk about the battery-electric train sets. It is my understanding that a framework agreement was signed in December 2021 between Iarnród Éireann and the provider for up to 750 carriages over ten years. There was an initial order in December 2021 for 95 cars, and a second order in December 2022 bringing us up to 185 carriages. However, there seems to be a lack of any subsequent orders notwithstanding that we have a framework for 750. Will the Department tell us when the next tranche of orders will be placed? I am conscious that with everything going well it is taking four years for deployment, but things are not going well, and it now looks like it will be six years, yet there has been a population explosion all the way up the northern commuter line. Under CSO projections that is going to continue.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am aware of all that, but I am limited on time. Will Mr. Doocey deal with the question?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Over the coming five years in terms of our sectoral plan we will be looking, within the available funding for the DART+ programme, to the next fleet orders. The next priority area for the DART fleet framework in place will be the replacement of the existing DART fleet that is approaching end of life. That is probably the priority order in the immediate future. Then we will look-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Doocey have figures for the carriages we need to be replacing on an annual basis for DART and the northern commuter line to deal with the increase in population and demand?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that but 2022 was the last time there was an order. The population is exploding year on year. We know we are trying to build more homes, and Fingal, Meath and Louth are absolutely key areas for that. However, we are not doing anything to increase the public transport provision other than the last order in December 2022.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We know it takes between four and six years to deploy the train sets.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
It will be a lot faster with subsequent orders. This is the first order. The first order has to go through the intensive safety testing period. Once you get your certification from the European rail authority and the Commission for Railway Regulation, the next orders are a lot quicker because there is not this huge safety testing regime that needs to go in place.
As the Deputy noted, there are issues arising that need to be resolved. Subsequent to that, other orders will be a lot quicker.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Are the train sets that are going to be deployed a replacement? Are they going to provide any additional capacity or are they just a replacement for out-of-date and redundant carriages?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will there be any additional capacity on the northern commuter line when they are deployed?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There will be additional capacity and the availability of the existing fleet is another aspect to the capacity addition that can be brought to it, whether on the northern line or elsewhere on the network. Other parts of the network are experiencing capacity issues as well. It is an addition and will be an advantage to northern line commuters and rail commuters generally.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department modelled demand for the next ten years? Has it worked out what capacity we need to continually add? When can we expect more carriages to be ordered?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The modelling would be undertaken by the NTA in the development of the transport strategy, which set outs the 20-year horizon and is reviewed every six years. There is constant engagement and review of the transport strategy, taking cognisance of land and housing developments, etc. The NTA, in co-operation with Iarnród Éireann and leaning on the framework we have in place, will be able to make orders in sufficient time to try to mitigate the pressures arising. We are cognisant of the fact that there are pressures all over the network.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am very concerned we have not put in any orders since 2022 and yet demand for service and passenger numbers are hugely increasing, which is great. I am a huge supporter of public transport, which is why I want to see more carriages ordered. I am seriously concerned that no carriages have been ordered since 2022.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How quick does Mr. Doocey expect future orders to be? Will we pay more? Does it go up year on year?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I get that we are not, but if we were to put in an order tomorrow, how long would it take for deployment?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. I want to pick up on a couple of points in the opening statement. Under programme C – road networks and road safety, the focus from my reading of it seems to be on maintenance and improvement as opposed to expansion and delivery. The reason I picked up on that relates to the area I come from, Drogheda in County Louth, the largest town in the country. It recently had new infrastructure open with a link road, the port access northern cross route. It is unlocking land, with a potential 5,000 to 7,000 homes to be delivered from 2022 up to 2027, 2028 and definitely by 2030, and a population increase of 20,000. Phase 1 of the port access northern cross route was delivered through a public-private partnership between the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund and two housing developers, Castlethorn and the Ballymakenny Developments Limited. Phase 2 was recently approved introduced and is due to start in January. It is funded through a collaboration between Louth County Council and the Housing Infrastructure Services Company. Where has the Department of Transport been at every stage throughout this process? This project has been ongoing for 20 years. The crucial phase, phase 3, which crosses the Dublin-Belfast railway line, is the most intricate part and will pull phases 1 and 2 together and unlock the whole northern environs of Drogheda. It is hanging in limbo at the moment. Is the Department of Transport involved or willing to get involved and step up to see that phase 3 will be delivered in a timely manner?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
Before I hand over to Mr. Doocey in terms of the detail of the question the Deputy asked, it is important that we try to balance our spend on protection and renewal of the assets we have so they can continue to serve the people who use those roads in a safe and secure way with new road investment as well. The new housing activation office under the new housing plan is very focused on trying to ensure, for example, where the west of a town is thriving but the east is not because a lack of an access road, funding is found through us and the housing activation office's new budget to put a road into the east side while continuing to serve the west side.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is in line with my question. Mr. Spratt answered it without committing to funding. The access road I referenced is designed to service an area that has been barren for years and has now got a development focus with 5,000 to 7,000 new homes coming but no infrastructure to support it. I am glad Mr. Spratt acknowledged access roads were needed. Mr. Doocey referenced a cognisance of housing developments. We can build all these houses but we are not going to have the infrastructure to meet the needs of the people living in the houses. He answered his own question in one sense.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but my focus is on the next phase of the road.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The Department has been engaging with Louth County Council back to 2021 on this particular scheme, which is hugely important to the development of the town, as the Deputy stated. Phase 1 of the project was in 2021. There was engagement between the Department and Louth County Council. The county council, as the statutory roads authority and as is its prerogative, went a different route in terms of the funding of that particular element of phase 1. It is being implemented in line, as the Deputy explained, with HISCo and development levies, I believe, and private developer support as well. There was engagement again with the Department on phase 3 and there was what we call in our transport appraisal framework a "project outline document", which is a high-level scope of the project, what it proposes to do, the benefits it would bring, estimated costs, etc. It is very early stage. That was submitted to the Department. Queries went back from the Department to the council and I believe the responses to those queries are still outstanding. There has been engagement on phase 3. The Department is funding Louth County Council this year in our funding grants to continue its further analysis and support of that project. There is ongoing engagement in relation to the project.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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From Mr. Doocey's experience - he seems to know a bit about it - is he positive phase 3 is a reality or is still at aspirational stage?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will follow up on that. Moving to something that probably goes hand in hand with that, I noted in the previous section, programme B, that there seemed to be a lot of investment in fleet as opposed to the supporting infrastructure. I am of the same mindset when I move on to the rail network. There has been a lot of talk about train stations and their importance. I think we have all grasped that today. Going back to the northern environs of Drogheda, there is a long-mooted northside train station, which would be a second train station in Drogheda right in the area of the port access northern cross route, the 7,000 new homes and additional population of 20,000 to 25,000. The Minister publicly said on the floor of the Dáil and in responses in the Seanad and the transport committee that there is no business case for a northside train station. That is despite it being on housing brochures 20 years ago and people buying houses and moving from Dublin to Drogheda on the basis that the new station would be there. Has the Department done a feasibility note or assessment on the need or capacity to deliver a northside train station in Drogheda? Where is it in the conversation moving to the next level?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The Department has not conducted a feasibility study in relation to a specific location for a future Drogheda north train station. The focus right now is on the delivery of the battery electric fleet on the northern commuter line, improving services to Drogheda and adding capacity to Drogheda on that line. The next phase is DART+ Coastal North all the to Drogheda, again adding further capacity and introducing improvements to the rail line on the way out to Drogheda and beyond to Dundalk and Belfast. The future location of a potential train station on the north side of Drogheda will be looked at in the context of engagement between the NTA and Iarnród Éireann as regards priorities for funding over the next couple of years. In the next five years, the real focus will be on the projects that are already in the pipeline.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department refusing to provide a feasibility note or is Mr. Doocey saying that it does not have a role in this regard?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Touching on capacity and improvement to the services in Drogheda, the 7.30 Belfast to Dublin service from Drogheda is supposed to be a six-carriage train. Recently, due to operational and mechanical issues, I think, the number of carriages has had to be reduced in recent weeks. The other carriages have been deployed elsewhere. I have been in contact with Irish Rail. Those carriages will be returned in the medium term, but that is not really any use to the people who are using this service in the short term. It is the fastest train to Dublin at rush hour and peak times, but it is operating at half the capacity. Can the Department follow up with Irish Rail and Translink to ensure that the six carriages are returned as soon as possible, particularly as they are of crucial importance to those who use the service? Thanks a million.
On maritime transport and safety, the aviation service and the Bristow contract, I know this is an ongoing query that the Department receives quite a lot. There are questions around how the contract could be awarded to a company that is using smaller helicopters that are unable to stay at the scene of an incident beyond ten minutes or something like that, which does not really work for multi-fatality incidents, etc. These helicopters do not have the capacity the old helicopters had to take multiple casualties, particularly if they are on stretchers. Can the officials comment on that? Essentially, we have the taxpayer paying more for an inferior service that has extensive limitations, yet this is something that was the subject of plaudits in the opening statement. I am keen to hear the response on that.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I might just make some brief remarks and pass to Ms Cullen who is the head of the Irish Coast Guard. We have zero concerns about the capacity to deliver the service that we went out to procurement for. In fact, the service we are now delivering is significantly better than the service that we have moved away from. I ask Ms Cullen to answer the specific questions.
Ms Joanna Cullen:
I am happy to confirm that we are very happy with the service. There has been a lot of misinformation, so I can understand why that perception is held by some that the helicopters do not go far enough. The AW189 is physically smaller than the S-92, which CHC has used up to now, but it actually suits the next generation technology. They are more agile helicopters and, in terms of the range, what we sought in the RFT was that the helicopters could cover and operate search and rescue services at a range of 200 nautical miles. The AW189 can go to 220 nautical miles and can stay at that range for 30 minutes. That exceeds what we sought in the RFT.
A key thing to mention in addition to range - this often gets lost in the narrative - is that the new contract is a step change in terms of improvement on the previous contract because for the first time in the Irish State it has the addition of fixed-wing capacity. That is in addition to a brand new fleet of five purpose-built AW189 helicopters, with a sixth on the way. It is actually the newest search and rescue fleet in Europe now. We also have two King Air jets, fixed-wing aircraft, which will be based in Shannon, one providing resilience to the other, so that we will have one fixed-wing aircraft on standby 24-7. That provides top cover, so instead of a helicopter having to stay out at range, which they are not actually designed for, we have the fixed-wing aircraft with cutting edge avionics able to travel out at range and provide domain awareness back to the helicopters. It really takes the search element out of the search and rescue piece for the helicopters and they can head out to the site already equipped with the domain awareness, knowing what is out there, and can relay casualties to wherever they need to go. It is a significant enhancement in safety. As Mr. Spratt said, we are very happy and we are very proud to the contract.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will take a short break for about 10 to 15 minutes.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses. Much of my contribution will be quite parochial. I am a Cork man and I want to focus on a number of issues that are faced by my constituents.
My first question is on the Mallow to Dungarvan greenway project. It is an essential active travel project that was identified for Mallow and its environs all the way up to Dungarvan. How much has been dedicated toward the Mallow to Dungarvan greenway since the project began?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Perfect. I do not know the exact figure of how much was granted but I know €50,000 was granted last year. Putting it bluntly, that is a measly amount of money to try to progress the project. When the witnesses go to get the figures for how much has been granted towards the Mallow to Dungarvan greenway, I would ask that they do so in terms of whether the project is dead in the water completely. That is the feeling on the ground. Looking at the Department’s figures, it is evident that there are other significant greenway projects in Cork that have been allocated money. Reading between the lines, and I do not mean to be disrespectful, it is ironic there is no Government TD in Mallow. There has been such a measly amount of money granted to the Mallow to Dungarvan greenway. The feeling on the ground is that people have no faith in the Department to progress the project. Once the witnesses have looked into the amount of funding, I would appreciate that the ongoing conversation in the Department on the allocation of funding to this greenway would be sympathetic to those who have advocated for that project for a number of years.
Second, the single biggest infrastructure project for my home town of Mallow, which has been spoken about before I was even born, is the Mallow relief road. I totally understand that allocation is made by Transport Infrastructure Ireland every year around February or March through allocations given to it by the Department. My fundamental belief is that it should be a stand-alone project for the Department. Has the Department ever considered the Mallow relief road to be a stand-alone project rather than being put into the general budget for Transport Infrastructure Ireland?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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And it absolutely does.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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If I may say, there absolutely is. There is a local group, and I met the people involved two weeks ago, which is a serious advocate for this and has been for a very long time. Those involved have been extreme advocates in terms of providing extreme detail to the local authority which has, in turn, passed that extreme detail on to the Department of Transport. Mr. Spratt can look into it; it is a fact. It is retired individuals in particular who have been advocating for this greenway for many decades. Those local champions do exist.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I am glad to hear that. I will look at that when I go back. The reason I say this is because we are so committed to greenways and active travel. Since 2020, we have done 2,439 active travel projects. That ranges from a small path through a local park right up to a national greenway. We are very committed to this. We have done a huge amount in terms of the numbers of projects. We have spent about €1 billion over the course of the last five years on active travel, so I am keen to find out for myself and come back directly to the Deputy and the committee. I am happy to do that and come back to the Deputy on that.
Mr. Doocey will have much more detail on the Mallow relief road and I will hand over to him.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There are two aspects to our roads programme. There is the national roads programme, which we manage through TII. That is a very successful arrangement which has been in place since the mid 1990s through the old NRA and has successfully delivered the road network that we know and use across the country. TII then manages that on our behalf. That model works very well. We then have the regional and local roads programme for the regional and local roads network. We manage that directly through the Department in conjunction with the local authorities. I should have said TII manages the national road network with the local authorities as well. I think those arrangements work between the division between national roads and regional local roads-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In terms of oversight of how much is allocated to national roads and relief roads in particular, does the Department have oversight of transport infrastructure allocations?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We would have oversight in the context of developing the NDP sectoral plan, which Mr. Spratt has spoken about already and which we are finalising for the next five years. It is we who determine, in conjunction, obviously, with our Minister, the specific allocations across programmes and agencies.
There is departmental oversight at that level and the Deputy will see the detail in the sectoral plan in the next couple of weeks.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has the Department ever considered the Mallow relief road to be a stand-alone project, as opposed to Transport Infrastructure Ireland having ownership of it? Does that exist? Has the Department-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Like a stand-alone in the annual budget every year.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is there any similar project outside the national roads programme that would be considered stand-alone?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Again, I am a little confused. Perhaps I am just not understanding. We have lots of stand-alone projects, but within an overall programme. We have two roads programmes, which are a national roads programme and a regional and local roads programme, and each of them has a multitude of individual stand-alone projects. The Mallow relief road is a project I believe we will see construction start on over the next five years.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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We have been told that for 50 years.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It comes into the matter of road safety as well. There is a significant issue with road safety on the main street in Mallow. We have huge HGVs coming through the main street. It has a genuine effect on the local economy and the building of homes. We are seeing loads of houses being developed in Mallow and the infrastructure does not match it. When I entered politics first I never really understood it. We could see the benefits of building homes because we want people living in our town, but we do not have the infrastructure to match it. That comes back to the TD constantly as if you are doing nothing about it, when you are trying your best to do something about it.
I will very quickly go on to the Cork to Limerick motorway. It is a significant project. The Department has engaged on this with locals and public representatives, but is it fully committed to delivering this motorway by 2035?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is good. I just want Government and departmental commitment to that project. It is what locals want as well. We do not have a motorway connecting the second- and third-largest cities in the country. It would not be seen in any other European country. I want a firm commitment and Mr. Doocey has given that.
On Mallow train station, I asked a parliamentary question and got a response on the amount of money being spent on private buses going from Mallow train station to Cork station. I fully understand work needs to be done on rail lines to upgrade them in the best way possible, but I cannot fathom that over €200,000 has been spent on private buses from a private company in the last 11 months. I was speaking to a number of people and followed up with a parliamentary question on the amount that has been spent on taxis. Did the Department ever consider a public bus system to give people the opportunity to travel to and from the city while upgrades to the tracks are ongoing? We are giving €200,000 of the public's money to a private entity.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The Deputy is right to highlight that replacement bus services have been put in place to facilitate people getting between Mallow and Cork while the works are going on. The works on the rail line will bring a lot of benefit to people. I used that bus replacement earlier on in the year.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Great. It is a great service and it worked really well in terms of the connection. When I got to Mallow I got on the train and away we went. It was really good. Whether it is a private contractor or a public bus contracted from Bus Éireann or Bus Átha Cliath, the cost is the cost. The bus will need to be paid for. Whether the bus is operated by Garret Doocey Limited Services or Bus Éireann, the taxpayer will be paying. The important thing is we provide through Iarnród Éireann, funded by us, a replacement service for those people who are using the publicly subvented rail network to ensure they can make their connections. I would argue that who operates the bus is a slight irrelevance. There is a cost attached to it. There would absolutely be a cost attached to the use of public buses. Those public buses would potentially be drawn off the public network to be utilised for the private benefit of those individuals making their journeys. The main thing is to get a service in place and get people where they need to go, but there is a cost to that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Very quickly on that, is there use of taxis?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Yes. I am awaiting a response on that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Great. I thank the officials.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for their participation so far. I will start with the Road Safety Authority. What happened in 2024 in the authority that the Department essentially had to give it a chunk of money because it was in deficit? The Department then made leeways in respect of the authority's waiver. What went on? It is a huge amount of money. The Department had to bail out the authority for €7.6 million. What went wrong there?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
To explain, the Road Safety Authority has historically been self-funded, effectively. It collects money through the services it provides, including driver testing, the NCT and driver licences. Pretty much all its funding has come from those sources. The fees for driver testing, the NCT and so on had not changed since 2012 or 2013 in most cases. The revenues were very stable but the RSA's costs went up considerably over that period because of inflation and-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Department was taken by surprise. It had accounted a certain amount and then it had to give more. Am I not right about that?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
I am not sure we were taken by surprise. We knew the funding model was coming under strain and that was one of the reasons we commissioned the independent review of the RSA. We monitor the RSA's revenue and expenditure regularly with the authority and over the course of 2024 it became clear it was eating into its reserves. What was also happening was because of the deaths on the road the RSA was being asked to spend more on advertising and media campaigns. We knew there was increasing pressure on it and it was eating into its reserves. It became clear to us over the course of 2024 there was a risk if we did not do something by the end of 2024 it would potentially run out of money. That is why we decided to seek a Supplementary Estimate for the authority of €7.6 million.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is the wrong terminology in this case but effectively the authority could have no longer been a going concern. The whole authority could have gone belly-up.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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But just explain that to the punter - to me in particular- how can a State agency that has a responsibility for managing public moneys, whatever the purpose might be, put itself in a situation where it is literally going to run out of money and not function, meaning it has to come to the Department for a bailout Dr. Walsh says the Department was not so surprised at? How does a situation like that happen?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
While it is a non-commercial State agency, it is unusual in that it depends largely on fee income generated from its services. That is the process that has worked for a number of years. What put it into difficulty in 2024 were three things, which were costs going up and inflation being high for everyone and also there were more demands on the RSA to increase its education and awareness-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This was not an insignificant incident. Dr. Walsh is presenting this in a very calm and assured manner, but surely when the Department was told there was a possibility the Road Safety Authority could go belly-up there were alarm bells set off. Or was it just a case of shrugging shoulders and looking at the figures and the rationale? Dr. Walsh is presenting this in a very calm way but surely there was anger, annoyance or frustration. What about the level of accountability within the RSA itself? Was anyone in it held to account for putting the authority in a situation where it could go belly-up? If that happened in any other State organisation it would be a massive issue.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What about accountability in the RSA? Does the Department have an operational or supervisory responsibility in terms of how-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----it is functioning and what happened? Maybe Mr. Spratt could help us with this.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
An important point on the comparison with a commercial organisation is fees and fee income. The RSA had been saying to us for a couple of years it needed to revisit its fees and would have welcomed an increase in fees. In commercial organisations when demand increases for the services or the products they provide they can put up the cost of their products and services.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The RSA cannot do so without the say-so of the Department.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
There was a strong desire on the part of Ministers not to increase the fees, particularly given the cost-of-living crisis. That was a big part of the challenge. On the oversight, we have 19 agencies. Some of them are regulators, but for the agencies like the RSA we have quarterly governance meetings.
We go through long lists of governance checks that we want to go through-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In the case of the RSA, just for the avoidance of all doubt, did nothing go wrong here apart from Ministers not having given it the additional fees it needed to fund itself? Is there anything else? Was there bad management, were there governance issues, or was that the only reason it nearly went belly-up?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I have only four minutes and he gave a very good appraisal there, to be fair. The witnesses gave me their answer there.
I want to move to another issue. On roads funding generally, when I was a councillor on Dublin City Council, we used to get very disappointed when the Department would publish its road maintenance grants every single year and we would get practically nothing. That has been an issue for as long as I have been familiar with this. Will the witnesses explain why four Dublin local authorities are excluded from the road maintenance grants?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I am sure Mr. Doocey has a bit more detail on this, but my understanding of it is, and I will defer to Mr. Doocey on it, the income that is generated by the four Dublin local authorities from development levies is quite significant. There are other incomes as well, but there might be more to it than that.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
That is basically it. I thank the Deputy for the question. He will know himself from being a councillor the kind of response that comes back. It is the revenue that is available to the four Dublin local authorities as compared with others. Let us be clear in order that we are all aware: the departmental grant is a top-up grant to the own resources which are expended by local authorities in their role as statutory road authority. The Dublin local authorities, as roads authorities, have much greater financial resources than the other local authorities. Hence, there is no departmental top-up.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Has this issue ever been examined or reviewed in any shape or form in terms of the equity in terms of the finance that has been given? To put it bluntly, there are a lot of rubbish roads in these Dublin local authority areas at a regional level. Perhaps the main roads are much better in terms of funding and surfaced or whatever, but there are a whole bunch of roads that are not well maintained right across the area of the Dublin local authorities. Where other local authorities get funding, they can get roads fixed, there is a better return, there is a better connection between the local councillor and local democracy, etc. Is this an issue that has ever been reviewed in terms of how Dublin local authorities are being funded when it comes to road maintenance?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I am not aware of any recent review. I will make just two further comments. First, if there are issues with the condition of roads within a roads authority functional area, it is a matter of that roads authority prioritising expenditure to deal with the issue in front of it, whether that is a rural local authority or a Dublin local authority. If there is an issue, it becomes a priority and funding should be directed towards it, whether own resources or departmental cofunding.
As regards the second aspect, we may come back to the Deputy in writing with details of the pavement condition index from the Dublin local authorities compared with that from the rural local authorities just so that he can see that information as to whether there are issues there.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That would be helpful. Deputy McAuliffe mentioned the great project of the Luas to Finglas. It has now got planning approval and there is a railway order. Between Mr. Spratt and Mr. Doocey, I think they were indicating in the sectoral plan that that particular Luas extension plan might be accelerated from what was previously envisaged. I am interested in the pipeline of Luas constructions and extensions because, obviously, one of the big problems we have had is that we built the Luas cross-city and then we effectively stopped. There are a lot of other Luas extensions, including in my area, such as the Luas extension to Poolbeg. I am realistic in terms of what can happen within the lifetime of this Government, but is it conceivable that the extension of the Luas to Poolbeg could at least get to the stage where the Luas to Finglas is at such that a planning application is made, planning approval is made and, when the Luas to Finglas is being constructed, whoever is coming in for that project or tendering for it knows there is a pipeline coming and they can move on to the next one and we can keep developing? The bus networks are now essentially close to complete in terms of design, projection and planning in terms of what the city is trying to do. The next big move, apart from MetroLink, is Luas extensions. Some 3,500 people will be living in Poolbeg, which is basically the equivalent of the entire population of Irishtown or close to it. There is a whole new village being established. Dublin Port is carrying out an expansion plan that includes the construction of a bridge. It has already had discussions with the NTA that could facilitate it. In the sectoral plan, which I know has not yet been published, is it realistic that we could have, at least getting it to a planning stage, the Luas extension to Poolbeg?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Deputy for the question. He is absolutely right to highlight the importance of having a pipeline of projects and being able to transfer the knowledge that is built up within the statutory public authorities and the wider contracting market in terms of the construction sector such that it can move from project to project. That is something we are cognisant of and it is an important feature of the NDP sectoral plan.
As regards the timelines the Deputy has alluded to, I would not necessarily be holding to those exactly. It would all depend on the financial envelope we have available and what we can maximise from that in terms of projects moving to construction and the timelines of it. As regards the basic premise of that, when a project moves into construction and, as that project then moves out of the construction phase, whether we have another project ready to step into it, we are keenly aware of the importance of ensuring that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Our next questioner is Deputy Neville.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Was it €900 million, roughly, on motor tax last year? Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was an increase on the previous year, was it?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Was there any change in rates or was that due purely to an increasing number of vehicles? Was this price-based or volume-based?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
First, there is no change in rates. The number of vehicles has been going up, which obviously would tend to increase the revenue. What is maybe countering that is that, largely, motor tax for private vehicles is based on the emissions levels of vehicles. In particular, owners of electric vehicles pay the lowest rate. There are more vehicles but an increasing share of those vehicles are less polluting or zero-emissions vehicles. The two are kind of cancelling each other out, I think, for the most part in the levels of motor tax.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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While many of us here probably pay online, we still have this system where a lot of people still go to local authorities to pay their motor tax. Is that correct? What percentage would the witnesses see doing that?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why is motor tax looked after by the Department of Transport rather than Revenue, considering it is a tax?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
It is an interesting question. I think most of motor tax - as I said, 87% or so - is collected through the motor tax website. It is a very simple, easy-to-use website. People are aware of it, I am sure, and have used it. It is also a relatively simple website for the Department to run. Then we also have the motor tax office. That is to cater to people who do not want to go online. At the moment, we feel that motor tax works fairly well with the current arrangements.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Considering the scale of this, which is close to €1 billion, is there a specific method as to how that is shared out? Is that for a specific set of projects, a type of project, or is it just a central allocation? Could it go back in against overheads? Theoretically, people would say to us, "I pay my road tax; I want my road fixed." It is obviously not-----
Dr. Keith Walsh:
No. From the Department of Transport's perspective, we collect the revenues. We collect them on behalf of the motor tax offices also and we hand them over to the Exchequer. There is no link then back to roads funding or any other particular forum. Back in 2018, a change was made. Prior to that, motor tax revenues used to go to the Local Government Fund and they would have gone to a different purpose, but now everything goes to the central Exchequer.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Basically, none of the money raised from vehicles travelling around Kildare or Kildare North stays in the county. It goes back into a central pool-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----whereas in the past it did not. That is interesting. Sometimes these things change. People may come in as elected representatives and might not be aware of how things are currently or why they have been changed.
To touch on an item that has been touched on already, the EV grants and the infrastructure, I noticed there was an underspend on that. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I get that point, but is there a bit of a chicken-and-egg element to this too? Is there a risk in that regard? If you put out the infrastructure, more people might buy cars. What type of infrastructure would not be built in that scenario?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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My question is about the specific type of infrastructure. It might sound like a silly question. I assume it is probably just infrastructure to allow people to plug in their cars and other vehicles. Is it that? Was there a plan to have more areas where people could charge up their batteries?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I assume that is grants allocated for people's homes.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
There are grants for the vehicle and for the charger. Funding was also rolled out for fast-charging infrastructure on the national motorway network. Infrastructure is now also being funded for fast charging on the regional and local roads network. We wanted to do the motorways first, which we largely have done, and to then move onto the regional and local roads. That is now being rolled out. It is being spent on grants, home chargers, national roads and regional and local roads.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I get it. If people are buying fewer vehicles, they will not be applying for the residential grants. I was just wondering about the infrastructure because people obviously have fears about range. The way to resolve that is obviously to put more charging points in place.
I will jump to a different issue. I am a TD for north Kildare. I had a group of students in today and I asked them what the main topic is for them. I figured I knew what their answer would be. I was intrigued that these 16-year-old transition year students said the single biggest issue for children and teenagers living in Maynooth is traffic. It is the same for the kids from Celbridge and even Clane. The main issue for Kilcock is the need for DART+. How are we dealing with that? Are we dealing with these areas in conjunction with the local authorities? Is the Department consistently engaging with the local authorities? How will we get to a point where we will be able to put in the critical infrastructure we require for fast-growing areas? I am sure there are also issues elsewhere. There is a need for a second bridge in Celbridge, a relief road in Maynooth and a DART+ service to Kilcock. These are all key issues. Even in Clane, another bridge is already required. These are key infrastructural issues. I know we have development plans coming but, as Deputy Eoghan Kenny alluded to earlier, housing is being built. How can we get those projects sooner rather than later because we are often waiting far too long?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
How do we link everything up at a strategic level? That is where the intersection between the development plans the Deputy has mentioned and the transport strategy comes into play. In the greater Dublin area, which also includes Kildare, there is a statutory link between the transport strategy, which I mentioned earlier on, and local development plans. Both must take account of each other and reflect each other. If you are planning housing in an area, that needs to be reflected in the transport strategy and vice versa. The transport links where local authorities are putting future housing developments need to be taken into account. At a strategic level, that is where you capture those issues and try to roll out the infrastructure in a co-ordinated fashion. Below that strategic level, there is probably room for improvement. That is some of the work being led by the Department of public expenditure and reform through the task force on accelerating infrastructure and with regard to the timeliness of delivery and how authorities can work across what some would call "silos", although I would use the term "organisational boundaries", to ensure co-ordinated investment so that the water, electricity and transport go in at the same time. I understand that is also part of the work of the housing activation office. When we see significant areas of growth outlined in development plans, we must ensure that supporting infrastructure is put in place in advance or at the same time to enable that housing infrastructure to go in. In terms of specific locations for traffic improvements, underneath the strategic plans and transport strategies, there is constant engagement between local authorities, whether on the regional and local roads network or on public transport.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Historically, that seems to have been missing in some of those areas in north Kildare. We seem to have got a lot of the houses but we do not necessarily seem to have got the infrastructure. Towns are clogged up. Maynooth University provides a slightly separate example, although it is very similar. The university currently has a significant issue in that we do not have enough transport links or accommodation and yet the numbers attending are consistently increasing. We are therefore drawing people into vehicles but we do not have the parking spaces. Ultimately, students have no choice but to park their cars around the area. Does the Department have consistent engagement with the university and the local authority on an issue like that, how to provide better transport links and how to make it easier for people who have places to attend the college?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
In terms of the issues the Deputy has outlined, I will not specifically deal with the university in question but with the challenges we face. In Ireland, we have faced significant challenges in co-ordinating investment and having plan-led development. That has not happened in Ireland in the past. That is why we have areas such as north Kildare and west Dublin where housing development after housing development has been developed ahead of the supporting infrastructure. What do we do to address that? There are examples of good practice, such as Clonburris, Adamstown and Hansfield. Areas are identified in reports the Department has published in conjunction with the NTA, the LDA and so on to be used for future large-scale housing delivery. There is investment focused on infrastructure to serve those areas. We are in a relatively good place. We are ahead of the curve on that. That is why the sectoral plan, the investment we have put in, and the likes of BusConnects, DART+ and MetroLink speak to those blobs on the maps we have produced that will enable large-scale housing infrastructure delivery. Specific issues like bus services and access to Maynooth University are matters for the NTA, which deals with institutions like Maynooth University in conjunction with the transport operators to see what can be put in to deal with issues arising at the local level.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have just one fear based on what Mr. Doocey has just said. We are correcting things for the future and even correcting things that have been done but the mind goes back to the likes of Lucan, Leixlip, Maynooth and Kilcock, which already have significant development. It might be okay for some of those developments that will come through the housing activation office in the future, but we need to ensure that we retrofit where required, whether with regard to the Celbridge bridge, the relief road in Maynooth or the DART+ service to Kilcock. We can engage on some of those issues afterwards. I thank the witnesses very much for their time.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. In relation to programme F and climate engagement, there were a number of questions earlier on about underspends within the Department. There is a very substantial underspend in relation to climate engagement. There was an underspend of €2.5 million against a budget of €2.6 million. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
We had a commitment in the climate action plan and published a strategy for public engagement on climate action and sustainability in May of last year. That strategy aims to strengthen the social contract between the public and the State in respect of climate action and sustainable mobility through an inclusive programme of engagement at national, regional and community levels and to empower the people of Ireland to take climate action in transport by shifting to more sustainable modes in addition to providing improved awareness of the services and infrastructure provided by the Government to facilitate this shift.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I get the gist. Why then was there such a substantial underspend? I get the purpose of it. I understand it. When a budget of €2.6 million was allocated, why was there an underspend of €2.5 million?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I suppose we just did not get the engagement programmes developed on time. Having said that, we were able to do quite a lot of work on what we wanted to do in terms of preparation and going out for engagement. Those engagements are now under way. We are hoping to catch up with that underspend this year and to put that money to good use.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of the report of the Climate Change Advisory Council on the considerable failures by Departments such as the Department of Transport. To have a considerable underspend on this critical climate engagement speaks volumes about the approach.
On the national development plan, where are we with the sectoral plans?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
The sectoral plan has almost been finalised. In fact, I think it has been finalised. We are just waiting to go to Government. I am sorry; we have gone to Government. It has been through Government and has been finalised. We expect to publish it towards the end of this month. Mr. Doocey might even have a date. Okay. We have to go to Government for sign-off on the sectoral plan. I am sorry; I should have said it has been through the Cabinet committee but we do have to go to Government. We expect to publish towards the end of the month.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There was one specific area in which I have an interest. We speak about key infrastructural projects and the delivery of those in terms of addressing the housing crisis and opening up other areas. One is the upgrade of the N11-M11 motorway, which was part of the plan. Funding was pulled from that after a completed phase 2. Is that going to be relooked at now in terms of the revised plan?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a commitment that that will be included?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, it is an issue of deep concern for people, not just in Wicklow but any users of the N11 stuck in serious traffic. There are lengthy delays every single day of the week going back as far as Newtownmountkennedy, so progressing this is critically important. I do not expect Mr. Doocey to have figures here, but could we get a cost to date of that project and how much money had been spent before it was shelved? As part of that, there was a revised version of that where the N11 bus priority corridors were to be put down as far as Glen of The Downs. Could Mr. Doocey give us an update on that project?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
In relation to that project, the Chair is right. That was almost like a subset of the wider project that was brought forward and progressed over the last number of years and primarily led by the statutory roads authority, which is Wicklow County Council. There have been a number of engagements at a local level around certain aspects of the project, particularly in relation to the closure and-or the upgrade of other junctions as well. At the moment, as I understand it, the county council is kind of reflecting on the feedback that has been given to it in the context of how to bring forward that project.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask about the status of funding for that project because it was indicated that funding had been suspended in view of the review of the national development plan and the broader N11 upgrade.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There are two aspects really to it in the context of funding. If there is a reflection or re-examination of what the project now is, funding needs to be provided and will be provided to assist with that in terms of Wicklow County Council's exercise of its functions and duties, and then there is funding associated with the construction of a project. That latter aspect can only happen once the former aspect has happened. Therefore, we will fund the former aspect and then once we are clear as regards what the project is, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, will re-engage with us in terms of the funding requirements, but right now, we do not have a project.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so, it went out for tender, and consultants were appointed. There is no suspension of funding for that scheme as Mr. Doocey sees it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Moving on, how many road tolls are in operation across the State?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many of those are public-private partnerships, PPPs?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I am sorry; I should just clarify so I am clear. There are 11 toll roads, of which ten are on the national road network and of those ten, two are essentially public, namely, the M50 and the Dublin tunnel. I believe the 11th would be the East Link, which is probably Dublin City Council.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What is the tenure or length of those PPPs?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a plan then to keep tolls in place or is that piece being looked at?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is being looked at. Obviously, there is a strongly held view out there that road tolls are cash cows. We see that again with the increase from 1 January. It is seen as a penalty on people using roads and particularly trying to commute in and out of work. For a toll increase to be approved, is that a function of the Minister?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is TII approved, so no ministerial consent is sought or needed.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the two State-controlled tolls, is the funding generated ring-fenced? Earlier on, Mr. Doocey spoke about the upgrade of the road and maintenance. Therefore, is money collected at those ring-fenced or how is that dealt with?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Money collected from the two State roads would be ring-fenced in the first instance back into the maintenance contracts on those specific roads and then there is another release of funds back into the general protection renewal pot available to TII. Therefore, it assists with the funding of the protection of the renewal of the network across the State as well.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect Mr. Doocey to have the information here, but would it be possible to get a breakdown of tolls collected at each of those 11 toll roads for every year over the last ten years-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----and the status of the contracts, PPPs or otherwise, and what the timeframe is on those if that would be possible?
I will also ask about the expansion because I know there have been different suggestions about expanding road tolls on the national network. Are there any current plans to extend tolling on any roads?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I know in the past there have been plans to look at the M50, for example, to put tolling at different locations. Did that proposal ever go anywhere or is that still currently on the table?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful if we could get those specific figures in terms of the duration of those PPPs and how much money has been collected over the last ten years. It would be useful if we got an overall cost of the project as well as the purpose for which the PPP was put in place.
In relation to the rail network, I am going to be a little bit parochial here because we all want to see an improved rail network. I represent a constituency through which we have the Rosslare to Dublin rail network, which seems to be completely bottom of the prioritisation list. Indeed, if we have a look at the timetable, it has not probably changed since William Dargan put the first rail line into Wicklow. It is certainly not fit for purpose. There are always issues there. I had two people on the rail line only a couple of weeks ago who fainted on the trains because of overcapacity. I know there are plans to extend the electrification down to Wicklow town. Mr. Doocey might just give us an exact timeframe for that because there seem to be shifting dates between 2027, 2028 and 2029, yet it was promised to be delivered by 2023. When is the electrification to Wicklow town expected?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Without meaning to repeat myself or unnecessarily annoy people, details like that would be covered off in the NDP sectoral plan that is going to be published at the end of the month, covering DART+ or the DART extension to Wicklow plus infrastructural upgrades to the line to allow for greater frequency and capacity. That is absolutely a live project and it is being looked at, and the dates around its implementation will be specified in the sectoral plan.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of prioritisation, my colleagues represent other constituencies on the northern line where priority seems to be given in terms of even additional carriages. I think there was a promise of 41 new carriages going in. There have been some delays in the delivery of those. It is now being pushed back a year. Mr. Doocey might confirm the exact timeframe for delivery of those new carriages.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I would just say at the outset that the deployment of those and where they are going on the network is a plan-led approach. Therefore, it is evidence-informed rather than other external factors influencing the deployment of those carriages in the first instance. The first units of the first order of carriages are in Ireland and on the network and are being tested. There have been issues that have arisen during that testing, which is a safety testing regime prior to certification.
This has meant that now the deployment of the carriages in service will probably be in the second or third quarter of 2027, but the second quarter would be the aim.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It will be the second quarter but it could be the third quarter.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have numerous concerns, but in the limited time I have, in my ongoing engagement with the NTA and Irish Rail, it is being said it is at capacity in terms of carriages. Only on delivery of those carriages can the Rosslare to Dublin line be looked at. As I said, there is a serious and dangerous situation there in terms of the demand and the supply. The two do not match. There are serious capacity issues. A number of people have fainted and others are opting to get back in their cars. I am being told that only when the delivery of those carriages is made can additional capacity be looked at on the Rosslare line. I have repeatedly asked if there are a couple of carriages somewhere that can be attached at the back of the carriages going through Rosslare and I have been told there is not one spare carriage within the system to increase the capacity. This situation is not sustainable until 2027, at the earliest, and I would not have much confidence in that. Can Mr. Doocey give me any kind of hope that a simple measure such as an additional carriage can be done? This would be at the back of what is a substandard service, where only three trains come through Wicklow in the morning. Surely, we have that level of capacity.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
In the recent history of train orders across the network for the last two or three years, we have had 41 additional carriages enter service, that is, 41 additional ICRs. I am not sure whether they have been deployed on the Rosslare line heretofore. They have, though, provided additional capacity in the last 24 months. I could be getting that slightly wrong in that it could be 36 months now. Those 41 carriages, though, did enter service and they were available to enter service-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Those carriages actually reduce capacity.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is because the carrying capacity on the carriages is smaller than what had been on it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that is the information I have.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I absolutely agree that safety is paramount. It is also the case, though, for the current users of the network who may be impacted due to overuse. We want to encourage people to use the rail network. We must also, though, take into consideration when it is dangerous for people to use the service. People are fainting on the trains because of the overcapacity. I ask Mr. Doocey to have a look at the existing fleet to see if some carriages could be freed up to put on the back of what is a substandard service. There are only three trains in the morning. We need to encourage people to use the service. The alternative is that people will jump in their cars and join the long queues on the N11, which nobody wants. I will leave it at that for now.
I call Deputy Bennett.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to the national development plan. It was said it is going to be published later this month. I will be very interested to see if there is anything in that plan for a rail network through Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Deputy. The focus of the national development plan sectoral plan is the next five years. As the Deputy is aware, we did publish the all-island strategic rail review that looks out to 2050 and establishes a vision for the rail network we want to see happen over the short, medium and longer term. Included within that is a new rail link crossing through County Monaghan and continuing into the North as well. The all-island strategic rail review outlines a high-level indicative programme of potential scheduling for those interventions. In the interim, we have been working with the EIB in developing what might be the prioritised interventions over the next ten to 15 years in terms of moving from where we are to construction. A rail line, therefore, is proposed in the all-island strategic rail review that crosses through County Monaghan and into the North, but it is a longer term ambition.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I have to say that is brilliant news for counties Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal. I do hope it is going to extend right into all those counties because they have all been left behind for so long. I would appreciate if Mr. Doocey could send me an email with the detail on that, some text on when it is happening and a plan. It is, though, very good news for counties Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal that there will be an extension of the railway line to those counties. I thank Mr. Doocey for that.
In relation to the road network, for nearly four years now, Transport Infrastructure Ireland has told this committee that the earliest construction date for the Clontibret to the Border road project will be 2030. We do not have a railway network and we do not have roads either. We will be waiting until 2030 to get a main road into County Monaghan. We really are the forgotten county. Can Mr. Doocey give me an update on the N2? I would appreciate that information too.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Deputy. I suppose it is important to recognise that the N2 is a national road, albeit one badly in need of an upgrade. This has been recognised by the Government and TII and funding has been allocated towards that too. Similar to Deputy Brady's specific questions on elements of the sectoral plan, details around the Clontibret to the Border road will be contained in the sectoral plan and the timelines associated with it will be published. I reiterate again that there is a real focus on the next five years in terms of delivery in this plan. The Deputy will then see the detail provided in that sectoral plan. We have been funding, and co-funding has been provided by Europe as well, in terms of the project from Clontibret to the Border to bring it to the stage it needs to be at to allow it move to construction, which we all hope to see.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Doocey think it is acceptable that the reason it has not gone ahead so far is because of a lack of funding?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was it stopped? That project was going ahead and then it was stopped.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department did not give the funding for it.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
What I said is that the funding allocations regarding specific projects are at a TII level but it can only make allocations within overall envelope available. Likewise, the Department can only allocate funding between programmes within the overall envelope available to us, which is always constrained. As Mr. Spratt stated, even with this NDP and the significant increases allocated to this Department, there is still a huge amount of unallocated funds that we did seek but simply will not have over the next five years. There will, though, be significant progress on the road, rail and public transport networks.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This project has been going on a lot longer than five years. Can Mr. Doocey tell me how long this project has been going on?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is probably about 20 years. We have not had the funding to do a road in Monaghan. We do not have the rail network and we do not have the road, so I do not know how anyone is supposed to get to Monaghan. We are talking about being more environmentally friendly, but we do not have a rail network and we do not have proper roads to go the whole way to Monaghan. It is unbelievable, if we look at the map of Ireland, that we are being left behind in every way. I just hope the national development plan has brought that. When is that going to be published?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Doocey. I do appreciate that there will be a rail network in counties Monaghan and Cavan. I look forward to the plan and I will really appreciate it if Mr. Doocey can send me on the information in relation to it.
If the Chairman will have a bit of leniency with me, I just want to discuss another topic.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has had in its hands since March a draft report in relation to the illegal transport of weapons of war through sovereign air space. Is it known when this report is going to be published?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They have not given the Department the information. This has been going on since March and it is now November.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Some information, and which airlines is the Department waiting to get information from?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Will that report be furnished to this committee whenever it is available?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is a significant interest in it. We want to ensure that Ireland is not complicit in the war and genocide in Palestine.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We want to ensure that, so we need to get that report as soon as possible. I think it has been quite a long time from March to November. I think that is my time up. I thank Mr. Spratt for his answer.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Bennett. I call Deputy McGrath.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise that I missed some of the session. I had to attend another committee. There is a delegation from the Czech Republic. I will focus on two issues in the time I have.
The take-up of electric vehicles and the underspend of €59 million were mentioned. One issue that is raised with us, as public representatives, is home charging and the importance thereof. For anyone living in a house that does not have a driveway, there is no clear protocol in place with regard to putting in place a home-charging facility in circumstances where the cable will have to be run across a public footpath. This is something that, I would have hoped, could have been resolved by now. It is something I tried to progress when I was a member of Cork County Council by introducing motions and so on. I have been in touch with the Minister on this issue. As of now, if I live in a terraced house in front of which there is a public footpath, I cannot able to put a home-charging facility in place. That is a real issue. If we want to encourage the take-up of electric vehicles, we have to facilitate people to put home-charging infrastructure in place. What are the intentions to bring this about as soon as possible?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
We are very aware of this issue and are very keen to address it. We are working with our colleagues in the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. We have the zero emissions vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, office, which works quite closely with that Department on all of the issues around private wireless legislation. We need to get this legislation sorted and in place. That would then allow us to break the back, if you like. of the challenge facing us. We are working as hard as we can to try to get the resolved as quickly as possible.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.
My second point relates to Cork Airport. Thankfully, Cork Airport is very successful and is achieving good growth rates. It has announced a €200 million capital plan, which is significant. One of the issues the management has highlighted is the lack of public transport connectivity to the airport. This is a significant issue. I appreciate that the National Transport Authority has a role to play here. There is no shuttle bus service from the city centre to the airport. There is no 24-hour bus service to the airport, and that is significant. Of course, as we know, the Cork Luas project does not actually provide any connection to Cork Airport, which is very regrettable. It shows a lack of ambition in terms of our future plans that we are not providing a light rail connection to the airport. Looking at the here and now, we can surely improve public transport connectivity in terms of the bus service. Will Mr. Spratt on the points that airport management are making regarding the lack of a public transport service to and from the airport?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I do not have the network map in front of me, but let us consider what is proposed under Cork BusConnects and the services improvements to it. Obviously, key nodes like the airport form an important part of the NTA's planning of the network. I would have expected in the revised network that there would be greater public transport connectivity. If there is an issue in terms of that network, I will certainly take it away and engage with the NTA on it. Obviously, in the more immediate term, I am happy to engage with it as well on what can be done.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much. I would appreciate that because the management has ambitious plans and is investing a significant amount of money in the continued development and promotion of the airport. It is actively trying to get new routes into the airport and so on. If we are determined to try to encourage public transport and reduce the usage of private cars, which, as we know, present problems in terms of parking space and so on, we really have to improve the public transport connectivity. I appreciate Mr. Doocey's answer. I ask that this matter be taken on board for consideration.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for staying on. I want to briefly return to the RSA issue. Mr Spratt mentioned that he has no governance concerns about the RSA in respect of the funding issue. I have been having a look at the appropriations account. There was a recommendation from internal audit that there be an audit of the oversight arrangements in place for the corporate governance of the Road Safety Authority. Is Mr. Spratt familiar with that recommendation?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It appears that this recommendation was closed in the first quarter of 2024. That is all the detail I have. Does Mr. Spratt have any further detail as to what internal audit flagged that gave rise to a governance review being called for in respect of the RSA?
Dr. Keith Walsh:
The Deputy is referring to an internal audit that was done by the Department's internal audit team. This was an audit of the Department's oversight of the RSA rather than the RSA itself. My understanding is that the Department's internal audit team does this on a rotating basis, namely that it looks at the oversight of different agencies. In more recent months, there might have been an audit of the NTA. Effectively, it was the turn of the RSA to be the subject of an oversight audit rather than there being a particular reason or a particular concern.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The internal audit unit had governance concerns about the Department's oversight of the RSA.
Dr. Keith Walsh:
No. My understanding is that the internal audit of the Department carries out audits of the oversight of all the different agencies on a regular basis. I am not sure if there is a strict rota being worked through, but, effectively, there are audits of the oversight of all of the agencies.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
We have a lot of agencies. We put a huge amount of time and effort into our central governance unit, which works with the line divisions - in this case, it worked with Dr. Walsh's division - to ensure that we are bringing very high standards of governance oversight to bear. I am very keen to make sure that all of our quarterly governance meetings with all of our agencies are being done in a way that is consistent, but also in a way that ensures that there is fairly strict oversight on our part. The internal audit unit looked at that particular unit's oversight of the RSA rather than the RSA itself.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The recommendation they made was in respect of the compliance verification of the RSA to the code of practice for governance of State bodies and relevant legislation. Will Mr. Spratt explain why the unit came to that finding, as it were? It is stated that the recommendation was closed in the first quarter of 2024. What was the issue in respect of the RSA's adherence to the code of practice for governance of State bodies that gave rise to this recommendation?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Spratt not think it was a factual matter that gave rise to the internal audit instructing the RSA to verify certain things in terms of its compliance? Is he saying that this was just a general instruction to the organisation to make sure it was in compliance?
Ms RóisÃn Cahillane:
As Dr. Walsh outlined, that would have been a routine audit that forms part of the regular programme of audits undertaken by our internal audit unit. I cannot remember the specific detail in relation to that particular issue, but I do remember that it was largely a misinterpretation between the agency governance unit on my team and the division that works with the RSA and how it applies the governance of the code of practice. It was more an operational piece rather than any major governance concern, but I will come back to the Deputy with the details.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
On what Deputy McGrath spoke about with regard to the underspend on EVs and how the Department is going to meet the challenge of people being able to charge cars outside of private premises, it was stated the vehicle for this will be the private wires legislation. The Department published a private wires policy statement back in July, which clearly states that the legislation will deal with the issue of a wire needing to be connected to a car outside somebody's house. I do not know if the heads of Bill have been published or if the Department is close to doing that. In practical terms, what is this going to look like? If someone who owns a terraced house wants to put a charger in place, is it the intention that the legislation will permit them to install a private car charger that might swing out over a railing? Does that touch on planning regulations as well? How is this legislation going to deal with these issues?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
The legislation will be brought forward by the Department of energy rather than the Department of Transport. We are working quite closely with the Department of energy. In the context of private charging for people who do not have driveways and who have to run cables across a public footpath, we want to ensure that this is done in a nice way, if you like.
We do not foresee overhanging chargers. We foresee the wires would come from the home and go across the pathway, in a covered way, so that kerbside charging could happen. That is our sense of the optimal approach to it.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Spratt.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of capacity, I am still not quite clear. Does the Department have a sense of the national annual demand capacity that we need to meet over the coming years across bus, rail, including light rail, and so on, and if not, why not?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has the NTA done that?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I would need to clarify it in writing to ensure we are capturing the point the Deputy is making. As I tried to say earlier, there is the metropolitan area transport strategy planning process, which takes place every six years. It looks forward using a 20-year horizon but then puts in place specific measures over a six-year period as well. That is underpinned by very detailed modelling and linked-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How are we doing in terms of the current six-year plan?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate if Mr. Doocey would.
Coming back to the carriages, I am really unclear as to why we are not ordering more. It is obvious to me and anyone else that we need to increase our public transport capacity with carriages, buses etc. Not ordering more carriages is alarming. I cannot understand what the blocker is. Why have we not ordered more carriages since 2022?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It seems bizarre to me that the Department would not know if trains would come through that regime when it orders them from the supplier. Is it a reputable supplier? Why is-----
Mr. Garret Doocey:
It absolutely is. There is no issue there in terms of the supplier and I am conscious we are referring to people outside of the committee. There is a safety testing regime in place. The trains are in testing and issues have arisen. We need to see progress on the resolution of those issues. That is the primary focus. Otherwise, we will have no carriages on any part of the network.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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So the blocker is the Department is waiting to see whether the trains work or not? That is the only blocker?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Funding is potentially an issue.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Given that the delays in the deployment of the carriages we currently have are due to health and safety issues, is there any credit built into the contract? Are we getting anything back or have the costs actually increased as a result of these delays?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There is no increase but will the supplier give us a credit? This is a supplier issue and deployment will be delayed by two years.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is a question I have submitted to the NTA. It is one of the answers I am waiting on for a while.
In terms of the national train control centre and all projects over €100 million, can Mr. Doocey confirm that the accounts next year will actually have subheadings? It is extremely difficult to get a handle on what is going on in these key projects. It is important that they all have subheadings if they are over €100 million. Obviously, we know that the train control centre has overrun by €40 million and delayed by a couple of years. That is 80 Dublin buses and at least 20 train carriages. Were those overruns flagged to the Department? What is the risk management process?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
In terms of providing assurance to the committee about the oversight of major projects, which are currently classified as those over €200 million, although there may be some reforms in that regards with the new work led by the accelerating infrastructure task force, the Department has a major projects governance oversight group in place. I chair it. It is attended by relevant principal officer-level colleagues from the Department. NewERA is there as well and we have independent members on it, too. We meet monthly with the NTA and, as necessary, with the sponsoring agencies as well to review progress on all of the major projects relating to public transport.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was the train control centre in there? That was not over €200 million.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
At the time it was instigated, the threshold was actually lower and was the €100 million threshold the Deputy referred to. It is on our oversight group's agenda. We are monitoring it through that mechanism. We get detailed reports on it. It is a project of concern. We are working with the NTA to ensure we see progress on that project.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We need to learn from the mistakes. We have so many transport projects happening, we cannot afford to have overruns of that scale. In terms of the overruns, where does that funding come from? Are other projects underfunded as a result?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
It comes from within our overall Vote. We have been given a five-year envelope or Vote out to 2030. Management of our overall capital budget is a primary responsibility of us as a Department and of Mr. Spratt as Accounting Officer. However, when you have a programme such as ours - a €22 billion programme over five years - there will be underspends in areas and there will overspends in areas. You manage it at the programme level in terms of allocating resources. At the outset, we had a discussion about the greenway underspend. There is an underspend in greenways but there is pressure on active travel.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Doocey. Other projects are affected. I have a big concern about IT overruns. Do we have the capacity to manage big IT-heavy projects? If we are not managing them properly, that actually affects us being able to buy 80 more Dublin buses or 20 more train carriages. That cannot be allowed to continue. We have to have the confidence within the Department and within the NTA to manage these very complex IT projects. Can the witnesses confirm they have that confidence?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There is a €40 million overrun. The Department cannot be too happy with the oversight there.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is after the fact though, unfortunately.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, it is not unique to the Department of Transport. We are seeing issues with IT projects right across the board and it is a question I am asking everyone. We must have confidence. Otherwise, we are losing control of €40 million. That is just on one project.
Mr. Ken Spratt:
I absolutely accept that. IT projects are difficult. One important point is that we carry out reviews every so often. We look back at all of the projects we have done. I might send on the one I signed off most recently for Deputy Boland so that she is aware of it and to give some certainty and confidence. There were approximately 530 projects in our last review. The vast majority of them came in on time, within budget and to the quality we expected. The occasional one does let us down but on the point that Mr. Doocey made about our governance oversight, we have no concerns in terms of trying to make sure we avoid risk and trying to make sure we spend money with good value for money in mind.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone from the Department of Transport for being here today and working with us. I have a few issues I want to raise, particularly about the capacity on the train between Athenry and Galway city. We have an early morning service there. Capacity has been seriously constrained in the past few years. I have been told that once the DART is electrified, there will be more carriages to send to the west. Where is that at?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Deputy. It feels like these train carriages have been promised to every part of the country at this stage. There is an issue with capacity pressures across the entire rail line and we went through it earlier with a number of other interventions from Deputies. We have had the injection of the 41 carriages into the intercity rail, ICR, fleet, which would have benefited the Galway line in more recent years.
We are awaiting the introduction of these new carriages, the DART+ fleet order, which is 185 carriages. That is a hugely significant order. They are coming through testing and there have been issues with the testing. We are dependent upon those carriages entering into service to allow a cascade of fleet and re-evaluation of where fleet is best applied across the network. That is the reality of it.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is there no timeline on that?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right to say there will be no new carriages added to any lines until 2027?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Certainly, there are no new carriages in the context of brand new, purchased, constructed carriages. There may be opportunities in terms of moving the existing fleet around but, as the Chair has already alluded to, that is very limited at present because everywhere is under so much pressure.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is understood. One issue that has been coming up repeatedly in Galway in recent years is the consideration of a Gluas, or Galway Luas. Has the Department of Transport given any consideration to the idea?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Consideration has been given to it. Indeed, the Department, through the NTA, funded a feasibility study of light rail. It is very important - I would always make this point when we are talking about transport interventions, particularly in the cities, but it applies elsewhere as well - that we look at it from a multimodal approach rather than just as a pet project or a specific mode. For example, when we look at the Galway transport strategy, it is important to ask what role light rail can play. The feasibility study did indicate that light rail can play a role in Galway. However, it is about the interactions between light rail, the bus network, the active travel network and the heavy rail network together. It is really in the context of reviewing the Galway transport strategy. Once that is reviewed, there will then be an opportunity to look at the sequencing of investment and which bits of the overall network we invest in first.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Regarding the Athenry to Tuam railway, the western rail corridor and the considerations around that, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, recently announced that it would be reopening. Is there a timeline for that delivery?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is perfect. Yesterday, outside Leinster House, I met some concerned citizens who live along the proposed Athlone to Galway greenway. I was on Galway County Council at the time the consultants were appointed, although the consultants have since exited the project. What is the state of play for the Athlone to Galway greenway? The big concern that people had was that their land could be compulsorily purchased to provide for the greenway. Every engagement I had with the consultants at the time suggested to me that everything was going to be by agreement, primarily, and that severance of farms was a no-go. What is the position regarding the Athlone to Galway greenway? Are CPOs still on the table and, if so, why?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The latest position in relation to the Dublin to Galway greenway, and specifically the Athlone to Galway element, given the rest has been delivered, was that a review was conducted in light of the difficulties that the Deputy has outlined. A report was received in August this year. It has identified some issues for consideration regarding potential effects on biodiversity and so on. What is happening right now is that the relevant county councils in Galway, Westmeath, Offaly and Roscommon are all keen to progress the project, but they have to reflect on the risks that have been identified in the report that was received in the summer and then try to plot a way forward for how we might deliver on that.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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During the route selection process, five potential routes were identified. Four of the potential routes proposed to go through Athenry, and some of the routes had a greater share of public land, which is obviously much easier to go through than trying to acquire lands from private landholders. Does Mr. Doocey believe the route selected is the correct route, or will it go back to the table for route selection again if there are issues with route five?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I would not like to prejudice the outcome of the reflection that is ongoing with the county councils, given they are going to come to it shortly. I will await receipt of their view of the way forward, taking cognisance of the report that was received in the summer. The Deputy is right about the previous route analysis, the differences between some of them and the amount of public land versus private land. I know CPO is a hugely contentious issue. It is a feature of the greenway programme. Agreements have been made with farming representative organisations as well. I would not completely discard CPO at the level of principle, but I am not talking specifics with regard to this particular project.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have a question that might be for Mr. Walsh. Can the witnesses clarify a figure? I can come back to it later. It relates to EV infrastructure grants. There is €134 million on the financial statements in the note and a €59 million underspend. That is different from the table in the briefing document. I want to clarify whether I am missing something. It is on pages 60 and 61 of the briefing document.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is significant. It is a big difference. In the briefing document, it is €158 million, with €66 million of outturn. That is a gap of €98 million. The witnesses can look at it later. I do not want to use all my time on this. If I could add back my two minutes, that would be great. I just want to double-check this.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The underspend is €59 million on one and €98 million on the other.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can I get my two minutes back? It was a clarification point. If I could, that would be great.
I have another random question concerning the fleet of rental cars in Ireland. Is there an intention that this will move towards electric vehicles, or has a commitment been made European-wide around that? I just want to clarify that point.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is what I am wondering about. Have we made a commitment European-wide that we would change our fleet by 2030?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have heard that. Can we get clarification from the Department of Transport as to whether we have agreed at a European level our intention to change the fleet to EVs?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Spratt raised points about EV range fear and the use of petrol and diesel. When travelling to any of our areas, such as Ireland's Ancient East or the Wild Atlantic Way, it goes back to the infrastructure question. We would need to have totally different infrastructure in place if that were the case. We might clarify that and come back to it. It might be something that needs to be dealt with.
I also have the good fortune to be on the infrastructure committee. Yesterday, we met a number of the large builders in Ireland - the significant construction companies. One of the first questions they were asked was whether they have the scale and size to deliver the required infrastructure under the development plans. We often hear it said - I will not say it is a “trope” - that we need a certain number of extra construction workers, but they all say they have them. We can develop and build in Ireland for the next number of years if we know what we need to build in Ireland. The companies tend to outsource a significant amount of work abroad, and they go to the UK and Scandinavia, because they cannot be sure they are going to get the construction work in Ireland. They also said that they have put a significant amount of money upfront for schemes that may or may not come about because, for example, they go to tender and the scheme gets pulled.
I am conscious that we are putting a plan in place for the next five years for a significant amount of infrastructure development. Obviously, transport will be a key part of that. Will we see multi-annual funding in place? I asked the construction companies to say what terms they would be looking at, and they said that, over five years, they would look at five-year terms. Will we see the announced plans and proposals for individual locations? The list will be coming out soon, will it not?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will those proposals be done to a five-year plan? Ultimately, the companies do not want this to all come out in one go, where they would all say, “We’re off.” Will it be done in stages? Is there a staged proposal within that? How will that look in terms of working in conjunction with the significant builders in Ireland?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
When we publish our NDP sectoral plan towards the end of the month, it will give the certainty that is required on the part of those construction companies. As I mentioned at the start, from a public transport perspective, we will have 22 projects over €200 million and hundreds of other projects that are less than €200 million. From a roads perspective, we will have-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will they be listed and itemised?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
We will be setting out any project over €200 million that will be in construction by 2030. We will be setting that out. We will also be giving some certainty over the course of each of those years. I think that when the sectoral plan is published, it will be welcomed by the construction companies that the Deputy has mentioned because it will give them the certainty that is required to plan for their staffing and other resources.
I should add that we still have an annual budget and when it comes to multiannual funding, it is very rare that this is given. This why the NDP is published. While we do not have a commitment to have the funding, we do have to set out the funding the Government intends to allocate to us over the course of 2027 onwards. We know what we are getting for 2026 already because we have been through the budget.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One of the big concerns that comes back from people working in that space is that, let us say, a project is worth €300 million over three years, which is €100 million a year, but a lot of it can be spent upfront in a tranche. Then the project has to be paused to wait for the next piece of funding. If this happens in September those involved have to sit around for three months before they can be sure they will get the funding. Will this be the case with this?
Mr. Ken Spratt:
Multiannual funding is something we would all like but because we have an annual budgetary process, we do not get it. What we do get is a five-year capital envelope. While we have a strong indication, and it is almost certain, that we will get the funding, it is based on the premise that we will not have a significant downturn. We get our allocation in October for the following year. We do have the NDP sectoral plan published, which gives us as much certainty as is possible. As I said, multiannual funding is not certain, other than through the annual budgetary process.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Spratt think that would cause a question mark for some people? Is it a risk?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have some concluding questions. To return to the issue of the carriages and the failure to deliver them in the specified timeframe of 2025, and the fact that failure to deliver them is essentially holding to ransom the rest of the country and the rest of the network, I would like more information. On a number of occasions it has been said that the delay is down to the supplier and it is a supplier issue. Will the Department elaborate a little bit on this? Why is there this delay? I know the Department has said there was safety testing and all of that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would because we have heard about capacity issues in Galway-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are capacity issues on the Rosslare to Dublin line. There are capacity issues on the northern line between Drogheda and Dublin also.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
It is an issue that requires resolution and everyone is working towards resolving it. That is how I would frame it. It is vital that we have trains that are certified to operate on the network. That is the process we are going through at the minute. Basically two issues have arisen during the testing process. One is in relation to automatic braking and the other is in relation to batteries. Both of these issues are being actively looked at. I have no doubt they will be resolved and this will allow the trains to enter service. I do not mean to overegg the concerns or the issues but issues have arisen and they require-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Issues have arisen. To go back to the original tender and the contract that was issued and signed off back in 2019, what kind of provisions, if any, were there? Deputy Boland asked whether there were issues in terms of credit. Was there anything explicit in there in terms of delivery of these within a specified timeframe? What financial penalties, if any, were in place for failure to deliver them?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We will come back on the specifics. Similar to the credit issue Deputy Boland raised and the penalty, which is the flipside of the same coin the Cathaoirleach has raised, we will come back on the specifics. Obviously the contract had milestones in it but the contract would have also have had - I have no doubt, and we can confirm this - the fact that all, or some, of the milestones were subject to passing the safety compliance testing period, particularly the entrance to service. This is a requirement of EU and Irish domestic law. We will come back with the specifics.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Doocey to do so because a two-year delay in delivery is considerable. To me it speaks of potential weaknesses in the contract and the tender. If we could get explicit detail, I would be very interested. It has a direct immediate impact. It also has an impact on the follow-on carriages, which have not been ordered. At what stage will that happen? Is it only in 2027 that the continuation of the order will follow through? The Department has said it will be a reduced timeline in terms of the delivery of these but what is that timeline without having to go through all of the safety checks again?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
As we committed to earlier on, we will come back on the reduced timeline for the subsequent orders and we will provide the detail to the committee. It is reduced as compared to the first order. I do not mean to make an explicit link but until they come out of safety testing and enter service, there will be no further contracts awarded to draw down further fleet. Issues have arisen with the current fleet order which, as a public accounts committee and as custodians of the public moneys in terms of the Department, we would like to see some progress made in resolving these issues before we go out and place another €150 million order.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How confident are we of quarter 2 of 2027?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Just to move on but to stay on the issue of rail, the east coast railway infrastructure protection scheme is a project which is impacting on my county as there are 65 km of coastline between Dublin and north Wexford. I know the expected timeframe for commencement of this is not until 2029. How involved is the Department and what role does it have in this critical piece of work?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We are aware of the project and ultimately we are funding it. It will be a substantive and elongated period of works given the nature of the issues on the coastline and the nature of the works required to resolve them. Again, details around commencement dates, in particular, and funding will be in the sectoral plan that will be published in a couple of weeks.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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As it stands the EIS will be next year. There is a lengthy process there and obviously it is dependent on funding. As it stands, it is not expected to commence until 2029. On the existing rail network along the identified area, is there any area of immediate concern in terms of coastal erosion?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I suppose issues relating to coastal erosion along the entirety of the line are being looked at in the context of the programme. The programme will prioritise specific areas for immediate intervention, along with short-term, medium-term and longer-term intervention. These issues are being looked at within the overall programme. If there are areas that need early intervention they are the ones that will be progressed more quickly.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Again, in my county of Wicklow, there is an immediate risk to the rail network in areas such as the Murrough in Wicklow town, which has seen considerable coastal erosion over the past number of years and it is progressively getting worse. This piece of rail line is seriously at risk, as is the public amenity at the Murrough. Certainly there is extreme concern that it cannot wait until 2029. We have been told this is the only show in town and nothing will be looked at prior to this. There are concerns in terms of the infrastructure and the public amenity. It needs to be looked at and I ask that it be given immediate consideration because of the seriousness of the issue. I do not know whether this has been flagged at departmental level by Irish Rail at this point.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The last area I want to look at is the creeping privatisation in the public transport system and delivery, specifically around bus transport. I have considerable concern about the creeping privatisation. What is the motivation and what is the purpose of going out more and more to privatise the delivery of some of these critical routes?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The delivery of public transport services as funded by the Exchequer and the taxpayer is governed by EU and Irish law. The EU law is Regulation 1370/2007 and the Irish law is the Dublin Transport Authority Act. The Cathaoirleach is probably aware of this. This law entrusts the NTA with the responsibility to enter into contractual arrangements with public transport providers. EU and domestic law carve out the continued delivery of these services by State-owned operators through direct award contracts. In Ireland and most European countries, although not all of them, we do have public transport services being provided by publicly-owned companies. In Ireland we have Bus Éireann and Bus Átha Cliath, with Iarnród Éireann on the rail network as well.
There has been bus market opening – that is the term used – in Ireland over the past ten years, maybe since 2013, whereby some services on the publicly-subvented network have been opened up for competition. There are benefits to be drawn from that in terms of driving efficiencies and promoting new practices in the overall delivery of the services. Both publicly and privately owned companies may participate in the bus market opening competitions.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Doocey might be able to provide us with details on some of the private operators. I have a list of them but Mr. Doocey might be able to provide his, including the contracts that have been awarded and the timeframes for them.
From a monitoring perspective and given that Mr. Doocey said it was about creating a better system, the evidence I have, not just from the user public but also from statistics, is that things are not working out too well. What is the view of the Department?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
As I said in response to Deputy McGrath, public service contracts - they are all public service contracts, whether there is a private operator or a State operator - contain the same types of key performance indicators. They provide for the same types of penalties that can be imposed, and penalties have been imposed on operators, irrespective of whether they are State owned or privately owned. The Chair mentioned his potentially bad experience with private operators. Also, Deputy McGrath raised issues with the operations of a publicly-owned operator. Issues arise in the delivery of public transport services, be they public or private. We can provide the statistics to the committee. We can also ask the NTA to provide statistics in the context of kilometres operated, to give a better idea. There will obviously be more complaints for Bus Átha Cliath as it has a much bigger network. Statistics per passenger or per kilometre operated would give a greater level of oversight of performance across the network.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I know a contract was awarded to Go-Ahead back in 2018 for five years, with the possibility of extending it. It was extended by a further two years. I know there were substantial penalties imposed on Go-Ahead. Could we get a breakdown of the penalties year on year not just for Go-Ahead but also for all the private operators, and indeed Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus?
The issue of concern for me is the delivery of the service by Go-Ahead. I have spoken to colleagues not just in Wicklow but also across the network where Go-Ahead operates. From the get-go, there have been many issues. We have had many excuses for the failure to provide a service that works. I have seen some of the financial penalties imposed but the issue of primary concern is that the contract expired and a new contract has been entered into. That was awarded to Go-Ahead in July. I think it came into force at the end of October. Consider the volume of concerns that continue to this day over the delivery of that service by Go-Ahead. Only yesterday, I had numerous complaints about buses not showing up, ghost buses and buses disappearing from the system. Any time I raise this with the NTA and Go-Ahead, there are similar excuses.
On the monitoring by the Department, I would be interested in getting data on how much has been spent on the delivery of the services by private operators, the failure to adhere to the contracts that are in place, the quality performance indicators and all the other metrics used. Despite all the failures, how is it that contracts continue to be awarded where there is poor delivery of services?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It went out for tender again and it was awarded to Go-Ahead for another five years. This is quite concerning in my view because the systematic failures over the course of the previous seven years have not been addressed. We are only a couple of weeks into the new contract and the failures are probably worse than they were under the previous contract. That, in my view, sets off alarm bells that there are failures at so many levels. Therefore, I would be interested in getting some more detail from the Department in relation to that.
That concludes my questioning. I thank the witnesses for coming in.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask one more question?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there any easy way to replace the Airport Hopper service? How might that work? Could someone could come back to me on that afterwards? It is badly missed in the areas it used to service.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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From a financial side, has the Department or the NTA run numbers?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our engagement with the Department of Transport. Once again, I thank the Secretary General and his officials for attending today. I also thank officials from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, and the Comptroller and Auditor General for their attendance.
Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. We will now adjourn until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 November 2025, when the committee will engage with the Peter McVerry Trust. Go raibh maith agaibh.