Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 6 November 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Financial Statements 2024: Uisce Éireann
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will engage with the Accounting Officer of Uisce Éireann to discuss its 2024 financial statements. We are joined by the following officials from Uisce Éireann: Mr. Niall Gleeson, chief executive officer, Mr. Chris McCarthy, chief financial officer, Mr. Sean Laffey, asset management and sustainability director, Ms Maria O'Dwyer, infrastructure delivery director, and Ms Margaret Attridge, head of water operations. We are also joined by Mr. Brían Munnelly, principal officer at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Maria Reck, audit manager. You are all very welcome to our committee.
I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references attendees may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting.
However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
As members are aware, Uisce Éireann is Ireland's national water utility company responsible for developing and maintaining water and wastewater infrastructure, and for providing related services. Its operations are regulated by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities.
The income statement indicates that Uisce Éireann had revenue from its continuing operations totalling €1.6 billion in 2024. Government subvention funding accounted for just over €1.1 billion, representing over two thirds of the company’s operating revenue. The subvention is provided in substitution of the company’s estimated potential income from domestic water charges. Revenues in 2024 from non-domestic water charges were €272 million. Fees for new connections generated income of €195 million.
Uisce Éireann’s operating costs totalled just over €1 billion in 2024. Uisce Éireann incurred expenditure totalling €336 million in 2024 in relation to hired and contracted-out services. The company incurred expenditure of €159 million in respect of its own employee costs. A further €138 million was incurred in relation to costs arising from long-standing agreements with local authorities. These comprise payments in respect of local authority staff and other costs associated with the continuing involvement of local authorities in the delivery of water and wastewater services. Uisce Éireann’s operating profit for 2024 was €332 million. Unusually for a body on which I report, it incurred tax charges of €42.5 million in 2024. As a result, the profit after tax and net finance costs was €279 million.
During 2024, Uisce Éireann invested €1.32 billion in capital projects. At the end of 2024, the company held €8 billion in property, plant and equipment. Deferred revenue totalling €334 million was held at the year-end in respect of new connection fees. These fees are received in advance of development and are recognised as revenue once the related connections are made.
As set out in note 25, the State funding of Uisce Éireann extends significantly beyond the recurring subvention in substitution of domestic water charges. In 2024, Uisce Éireann received a capital contribution of €571.7 million issued from subhead B5 of the water services programme of Vote 34. This brought the aggregate capital contribution to €4.5 billion at the year end. Uisce Éireann also has a €1 billion loan facility, agreed with the Minister for Finance in 2020, drawn from the Central Fund of the Exchequer. The facility was put in place to allow Uisce Éireann to repay non-domestic commercial debt it had previously taken on and to fund its future non-domestic water borrowing requirements. A sum of €644 million was drawn during 2024, bringing the total drawdown to end 2024 to €998.6 million.
I certified the financial statements on 29 April 2025 and issued a clear audit opinion.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask chief executive, Mr. Gleeson, to give the opening statement on behalf of Uisce Éireann. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes to make his statement.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Go raibh maith agaibh, a Chathaoirligh and members of the committee. I thank them for the invitation to discuss our financial statements for 2024, as laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and published on our website as part of our annual report. As this is our first meeting with many of them, we provided a short high-level submission, which gives an overview of our role, governance structure, as well as financial and performance highlights from 2024.
Uisce Éireann has been subject to annual audits by the Comptroller and Auditor General since 2023. We are pleased to have received a clear audit opinion for the second year in a row for 2024. This is testament to our robust well-established system of internal controls, policies and processes that ensure overall consistency and compliance by staff across the organisation. We thank our board for their ongoing governance and oversight.
The year 2024 was the final year of Uisce Éireann’s third regulatory revenue cycle, which ran from 2020. During this period, we invested more than €5 billion upgrading and improving water and wastewater infrastructure and assets. Last year, we invested an estimated €1.37 billion in capital improvements, which was a record amount. This included the completion of 17 new and upgraded wastewater treatment plants and nine water treatment plants; the laying or rehabilitation of hundreds of kilometres of water mains and sewer network; and the daily treatment of some 1.7 billion litres of water and 1.3 billion litres of wastewater across the country. These projects and programmes addressed our regulatory compliance obligations, created capacity for growth and supported the implementation of Government policies.
Some strategic milestones from 2024 include the completion of the Saggart reservoir project, which delivered €59 million to improve security and resilience of supply for hundreds of thousands of people across the greater Dublin area, and progression of the final phases of the €139 million Arklow wastewater treatment plant, eliminating the discharge of raw sewage into the River Avoca. Its official completion was earlier this year, six months ahead of schedule. We completed the Troyswood water treatment plant serving Kilkenny city, with an investment of €33 million, removing the area from the EPA’s list of vulnerable water supplies. Significant progress was also achieved against the Athlone main drainage scheme, which is due to be completed later this year at a total investment of €114 million. In parallel, we continued to implement and progress one of the largest transformation programmes across the State, bringing all water services under one single national utility through the transfer of operational responsibility, knowledge and skills from local authorities to Uisce Éireann. These are just some of the projects and programmes we delivered across the country last year, but they demonstrate our capacity to leverage Exchequer funding to create lasting benefits, including safeguarding public health, protecting the environment and enabling communities to thrive.
We have received clear commitment from the Government to support our continued work, prioritising areas identified through national and regional plans to enable housing, economic and environmental goals. Our strategic funding plan covering the period to 2029 includes €10.3 billion worth of investment in infrastructure and assets. This, with commitment to an additional ring-fenced investment of €2 billion to 2030 under the national development plan, provides record funding for water and wastewater services infrastructure. Uisce Éireann welcomes this additional funding. We set out a clear case for its need and we are working closely with the Government and stakeholders to realise this funding and deliver on the ground.
To this end, there are a number of important milestones and underpinning dependencies. A key step in this process is the upcoming consultation by the CRU, our economic regulator, on Uisce Éireann’s draft fourth revenue cycle and capital investment plan for 2025 to 2029. The outcomes of this process will ensure we have a robust set of objectives and priorities to deliver against and be accountable for. Uisce Éireann is also playing a central role in the accelerating infrastructure task force established by the Minister, Deputy Chambers, both through my own participation in the steering group and through our direct secondee to the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. We are working closely to identify and resolve the barriers to delivery of key infrastructure, address regulatory and legislative burden, and create an efficient, co-ordinated approach to achieve national objectives. We also have a secondee to the housing activation office under the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage as we continue to support the Government in the delivery of its housing policy. Progress against our strategically important national infrastructure projects, the water supply project eastern and midlands region and the greater Dublin drainage, GDD, project, is paramount to unlocking capacity, ensuring resilience and reliability, and delivering for the common good.
We welcome July’s planning approval by An Coimisiún Pleanála for GDD. It is disappointing the decision is being challenged for a second time but we remain focused on the delivery of this essential project and are committed to commencing delivery as soon as possible. For the water supply project, WSP, we will be submitting our planning application by the end of the year and hope to see its timely progress through the necessary processes.
Further delay to these two strategic national infrastructure projects will have serious consequences for the delivery of housing and broader economic growth and development. It could also significantly hinder our progress towards essential climate and environmental objectives, putting both local communities and the wider environment at risk. By investing in resilient, sustainable water and wastewater infrastructure, we are enabling prosperity, safety and well-being for all. This guides our decision-making and reinforces our resolve to deliver real and lasting benefits for generations to come.
We welcome today’s discussion on our financial statements for 2024 as a means of demonstrating how we are delivering on this commitment on behalf of the Exchequer. In a follow-up to this meeting we would welcome the opportunity to invite the committee to visit one of our infrastructure sites in the near future so all members can see first hand the scale and significance of our operations.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Gleeson. I note we will suspend for ten to 15 minutes for a break at 12 noon and resume shortly afterwards. I now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Neville, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits, I will allow members back in at that point.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming into the Committee of Public Accounts today. I know they all have busy schedules but it is important that we have this opportunity to discuss the financial statements and go through them with the Comptroller and Auditor General. I will ask a set of questions; I am obviously conscious of time so we can try to get through it as quickly as possible. First, how much Revenue was received from the State in 2024? We will focus on 2024.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is €1.1 billion. Does Mr. Gleeson believe the State receives value for money for that spend?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
I might give the Deputy a bit of background on the model that we operate. Uisce Éireann is a regulated utility. We are regulated by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU. It is working to minimise the cost and making sure we are efficient from a customer perspective. That is essentially how our revenues arise. In total, we had €1.6 billion of revenue in 2024. That is made up of three components.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I might come back to that. How much of it is third-party revenue?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the third component?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is €185 million. You have got-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----third-party fees. Who would be Uisce Éireann's made customers in third-party?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who is the main one? Just give me an example.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I am just clarifying. How does Uisce Éireann know that it captures all revenue?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Could Mr. McCarthy say that again? He is not sure that Uisce Éireann is billing all the users-----
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
I cannot say for definite, 100%, that we have absolutely every customer billed who is a non-domestic customer. What I can say is we have a database we inherited back in 2016 or 2017 from the local authorities. We have been building on that since with all the new connections we have done, etc., along the way.
From a revenue assurance perspective, we have a revenue assurance team. We look at all that. We do meter reads and that forms part of our bill.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Has Uisce Éireann any way of tying in what goes through the system and what is ultimately being billed?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I refer even just to drinking water. How do we know that people are not tapping into the system somewhere along the line? By coincidence, we were here with the justice Department two weeks ago and there was a situation of a user who was using Ryevale House. There was an allegation that the person was using a tanker and was tapping into water. What happened there in that situation?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Ultimately, we cannot say that people are not using our water without our knowledge because our network is 65,000 km long. It is one of the longest in Europe. Per head of population, our network is twice the size of Germany's so we cannot say that people are not tapping in. We know there are places with connections that should be metered that are not metered but we are continuously improving the information we have in our database. Over the past 18 months, we have set up a dedicated system within Uisce Éireann and a dedicated team whose job is to look after metering of domestic and non-domestic customers.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Laffey know if that is subject to a court case? Is there a Garda investigation of that particular case? Is that an offence?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So if someone uses your water without you knowing, it is an offence.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is that a criminal offence?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I would have sympathy for the commercial operators. You could have local breweries, who are heavy users of water where water is possibly their main bill. Then you have someone going in and tapping it next door and getting it for free.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We do not have a standpipe policy, per se. We do know that people who, for instance, wash windows and run cleaning operations take water from standpipes and hydrants across the network. We know they do that but we are working to bring in systems and mechanisms to track that water usage.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes because obviously, one of the key things in any business like Uisce Éireann is revenue assurance.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I get that. I am just looking at it from an accounting perspective and how Uisce Éireann can be sure about revenue assurance.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am using an example of how a system can be used for revenue. In that case, somebody was able to tap into Uisce Éireann's system and get it for free. You could have a neighbour, a coffee shop - I am just saying-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, we need to be careful about making allegations around specific names or entities.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I did not name them. I did not name names. I was only using it as an example where you could have someone who is a commercial operator and is paying, and someone else could tap into the same system and get it for free. It was a question about revenue assurance because ultimately, as was said, the State is paying €1.15 billion a year to Uisce Éireann. If there are other people getting water for free we have to be assured.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Revenue assurance, as I said, is obviously key in Uisce Éireann's business.
How much profit did Uisce Éireann make last year?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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With regard to any of that, has there ever been a request from the State for any dividends to be paid back to it?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
No. The reality of this is we have a very intensive capital investment plan over the next number of years. All of that money goes straight into our capital pot. Yes, the profit would typically be given back to the State as a dividend if we were a commercial organisation but the reality is we have such a large investment plan from years of underinvestment that we have no choice but to invest it.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. That makes sense and I am not disagreeing. I was just curious as to whether there had been a request.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Essentially, every profit goes back in.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense. That is not a problem. There is one other thing. I am going through the financial statements. I have gone through revenue, looked at the profit and I am going through some of the opex piece. What is the average salary of an employee from Uisce Éireann, salaries being a key component of its expenditure?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, fine. I noticed there is a significant number of people earning salaries over €100,000. It caught my eye when I was going through the financial statements and the notes.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it 400 staff on over €100,000?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So 25% of staff are on over €100,000. Okay.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
Can I add to that, for the avoidance of doubt? We operate a market-based, benchmark pay model. The Deputy must remember as well that we have gone from a situation where we were very much office-based to now making sure we are bringing in the operators.
With that come all the packages from the local authorities associated with each of those operators as well.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to that because I have questions about it. I want to focus on salary costs. There is also a bonus scheme. Are all employees entitled to bonuses or is it done on an average basis?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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All bar the boss. That is unusual. Normally, it is the other way around. All staff are-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was going to be my next question. Is it a performance-related bonus or is it about profitability? That is a key question.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It relates to performance as opposed to profit. Once again, that makes sense considering that it is a State entity.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Perfect. I want to jump back to the point Mr. Gleeson made regarding the people coming over from the local authorities. This relates to one of the issues I came across in my time as a councillor when talking to local contractors. Is there a risk that people are not coming across? First, how many people from the local authorities are left? I know this will run until 2026. Are still a significant number? Can we get an indication of the number of people who will be coming across?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I will ask Ms Attridge to come in on the details. It is certainly challenging. We are encouraging as many of the local authority staff as possible to come across. Some have been with the local authorities for years and would prefer to be redeployed. That is understandable. Where we have those skills gaps, we are having pretty good success in recruiting in the market here as well. Ms Attridge might elaborate on the number of transfers.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
So far, we have 628 staff who are coming to us either by transfer or through recruitment and getting promotions as they come in. We have just over 1,200 local authority staff still working in water services. Our teams are getting to know all of those people now, and we have a good idea of the percentage of those who will or will not come across.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What does Ms Attridge think? Will it be 50:50?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there a pension issue? There are two pay agreements, but are all pensions, etc., the same when they come across? I want to clarify that there is no financial disincentive to coming across.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I guessed as much. I just wanted to clarify that.
One other issue is the brain drain. Knowledge loss is something I would be afraid of. I was talking to a local engineer about specific pipes. There is almost a kind of wizardry that goes with someone who has been operating in a place for 30 years and knows the direction in which particular pipes go. It is like a labyrinth underground, and none of us fully realises the knowledge of that guy who is in his late 50s and has worked in a place for 30 or 40 years until he steps across to, say, be the engineer in Kildare County Council. Is there a fear about that?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
That is something we were very concerned about. We have lost a lot of local authority staff in the last 12 months, either by way of retirement or they have moved back to the local authority already. However, we have got in a lot of really good, skilled people as well. Through it all, there has been a huge transformation programme. All of the services remain quite stable, however. We have programmes in place. When we bring in new people, we have mentoring programmes. If somebody is leaving, we do a lot of knowledge capture. We are trying to systemise a lot of our information, get contingency maps done and get everything on our GIS, so we are not relying on individuals.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is great. I want to jump to the capital budget for the coming years. There has been a significant increase in the capital budget set aside for Uisce Éireann. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So there will be no issues from Uisce Éireann if we want to build 50,000 houses a year.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Gleeson was in the infrastructure department before.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Honestly, that is good to hear. It is good to have acceptance on your side of the challenge that is going to be put forward to us all, and I include myself in that, ultimately.
As regards the practical capital plan, do we know how that is being set out? I am not saying it should be done by county because I do not want to be overly parochial, although I will get parochial. Will we know where that money is being spent? Is that €2 billion itemised by area?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The money is broken down into programmes and projects. Programmes, in the main, will be lots of small projects rolled up into a fairly efficient delivery mechanism. Those minor projects that are rolled into programmes will be decided on a yearly basis, so we will know them six, eight or nine months in advance. For the major projects, absolutely, we know where they are.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Uisce Éireann is currently doing projects in Celbridge and Hazelhatch. The Hazelhatch one, for example, was previously on a three-year capital plan. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will the same structure still be in place? That Celbridge one is being done currently. How long is that project going to take?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is where I am jumping to for my last area of focus. In my area of Leixlip, there are significant issues in Confey because a pipe keeps bursting on the road between Maynooth and Leixlip. It has been identified by Uisce Éireann as one of the key areas that keeps going, but it is not on a capital programme list. Will that €2 billion allow the upgrade of that line near Intel and Carton that keeps going? It is the area of Confey that loses it first, but the whole of Leixlip is out on a regular basis.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The rehabilitation of water mains is decided on an annualised basis because, as the Deputy can imagine, the demand across the country to replace water mains that are in situ and are breaking is immense. We look at the number of breakages and the number of customers impacted, and we decide on that basis. I can certainly check on that. I would imagine that a network and a piece of line of that size would be prioritised.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. I thank the witnesses for their time. I know it is not easy going through all of these questions. I thank them for their forbearance.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses from Uisce Éireann. Mr. Gleeson stated that he is working on behalf of the Exchequer. I want to delve into that. Mr. Gleeson might confirm that in 2024, €159 million was spent on staff and employee costs. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In 2023, €115 million was spent on employees.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was an increase of €45 million. When I looked at the staffing, the number of Uisce Éireann staff went down. How could that be the case?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have numbers that suggest that in 2023, it had 2,108, and in 2024, it had-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not additional. In relation to the performance-related awards, I am inquisitive. Why are local authority staff not moving over? Do they get an incentive for moving over, such as a service incentive payment?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is €3,000 per employee who moves over from the council. Why are a lot of council staff not moving over?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
As I said, many of them are from an older cohort. They might have been with the local authorities for 20 or 30 years and they are happier to redeploy within the local authority. They would get the same pension entitlement if they came over to us, but they would be on a different pension scheme, so some of them just do not want that if they are five years away from retirement. There are lots of reasons, but they have a choice.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do they get the performance-related award?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the downfall? If they get the performance-related bonus, what do they not get?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is no downfall.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. So they are losing out on that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to get clear on why they are not moving across. They are losing out on the increment base but they still get the bonus.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Going back to the bonus, within the Exchequer and within the Government, I would like to know if there is any other company that the Government funds that gets pay-related bonuses.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Everybody is getting paid for their job. They are getting paid for their job but then Uisce Éireann is giving them additional money to do their job.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
I ask the Deputy to hear me out on this. Back in 2013 there was a pay agreement whereby we have a market-based pay model. The market-based pay model has two components: one is the base salary and the other is pay at risk. If there is pay at risk, the person is incentivised to work harder and incentivised more to deliver objectives. It is rather than an incremental system. For example, if the person is working within the local authority, he or she is on an increment system which is based on the number of years. The person could be doing the same thing for ten years but getting an increase every year automatically. In this situation, the person will not get an increase year on year automatically; it has to be benchmarked and it is based on performance objectives. We are a high-performing utility similar, to the ESB and Gas Networks Ireland, GNI, and so on.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does this happen in the ESB?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So they get pay-related bonuses in the ESB?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just think it is quite a lot of money that the Government is paying in. When we look at the wages it is €159 million. Is it correct to say this is more than 10% into wages and not into infrastructure?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the rest of the public servants right across Government Departments would love to get that pay-related bonus that they are not getting but employees in Uisce Éireann are getting.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to developer-provided infrastructure. The Government sets the target of 300,000 houses over the five-year period up to 2030. This is an average of 60,000 a year. How many homes will Uisce Éireann's 2025 capital budget allow it to connect to the network? How many houses will it get connected this year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Uisce Éireann have provision there for 60,000?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many have been connected?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not connections.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is just connections I am interested in. I want to know how many connections there were in 2024 and 2025.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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A positive thumbs up is not connections.
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
With connection offers, where people actually engage with us coming in for a connection, we were able to give a positive contract out for 52,000 units. Then where we have connection applications accepted, that would have been associated with 41,000 units. If I was to say where we are this year, up to September the inquiries would be 132,000 units, connection offers would be 32,000-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, 32,000. So Uisce Éireann is going to get to 60,000.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So Uisce Éireann is going to have 60,000 by the end of the year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has promised that 60,000 houses will be built this year by the end of the year. If we have not got the connections, how have we got the builds?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Again, Uisce Éireann cannot determine where houses are built. It is our job to ensure that the capacity is available. We work very closely with developers and we would also ask members to encourage anyone developing to engage with us early. We work very hard to be able to enable that development, where it is happening, at a quicker pace.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that Uisce Éireann has submitted a new capital programme to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Where is that process currently at?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
In terms of the process, over the next couple of weeks the CRU will be publishing the look-back papers and the look forward, where it will assess our efficiency over the past five years and look forward then up to 2029. We expect them to be published for consultation in the next couple of weeks.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it going to be better than the previous?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I want to ask about hard water, which is a big issue in the area I live in. I looked on the website earlier today. Uisce Éireann recommends that people use softening units when they have hard water. Does Uisce Éireann have a grant for that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So Uisce Éireann just expects people to pay that extra money for-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It is not good for other appliances in the house either. Washing machines and showers and everything else gets clogged up with hard water. Perhaps Irish Water should consider giving people a grant for hard water.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I also want to discuss the public sewerage systems in towns and villages. Is there any plan to extend that out to all villages and in the countryside as well so that sewerage systems are not just in towns and cities?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, unsewered areas where people must have septic tanks.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We have no plans for that at the moment because it is not within our remit. We have worked with the Department and we have looked at that but putting new networks into small towns and villages is very expensive. It could be up to €60,000 or €70,000 per house. There have been some examples in the past where this was done and it was not a success because, essentially, people did not connect to the networks.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the witnesses. I will come back in later.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Gleeson and all the team for being here. Mr. Laffey tempted us with a great line about Ireland's network being twice the size of Germany's. Will he expand on that?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
For every man, woman and child in the country there is 12.5 m of network pipe water main. That is twice Germany's network per head of population. We have 65,000 km of water mains. This is because of the nature of our country, being very rural, and because our networks were managed over the years by 34 separate local authorities which invested in networks in every single small town or village.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it fair to say that potentially we have double the maintenance costs that Germany would have?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The ESB also commented in the context of Storm Éowyn last year that the disparate nature of our population base poses a huge utility challenge. Mr. Laffey distracted me there. I will get back on course.
On the issue of pay, I will give a theme and then try to cover a number of areas. Irish Water was established as a standalone utility with the expectation that there would be income from domestic and non-domestic customers. I suppose the vast majority of the income now comes from the State and there is no expectation that it will be any other way in the future. I want to look at the structural things that are left as a result of the model that was placed on Irish Water, and whether there are additional costs as a result of that. The first one mentioned was the pay model that is applied. Mr. McCarthy's clarification around increments versus pay at risk is interesting. Has Irish Water ever done a comparison between the two models as to which would be more expensive?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If that is correct, then Uisce Éireann probably would not have the same recruitment challenges that might be in place if it had a more rigid pay model and was not able to respond to market trends in pay. Does Uisce Éireann have numbers of unfilled posts, particularly in technical areas?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When the witnesses say it is market based, Uisce Éireann is doing that on a nationwide basis rather than by region.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. On at-risk pay, what percentage of staff do not receive the additional payments?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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So 97% of Uisce Éireann staff-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, 93% of Uisce Éireann staff receive the additional payment for performance.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When you compare it to the idea of increments where 100% of staff receive increments, I can see how one would make that case. It is very difficult for people to grasp the idea of a bonus where such a high percentage - over 90% - would automatically receive it. Can the witnesses help us understand? Are there people who are given warnings that they might not receive it? Can the witnesses break it down a bit?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Mr. McCarthy will take the Deputy through how the scheme works. We have a performance management system that manages people’s performance. We set targets at the start of the year, they are assessed mid-year, and then whether they have performed it is assessed at the end of the year.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
It is a market-based model. It comes within a bell curve effectively. There is the bulk of the population receiving the mid point - maybe 70% - with some exceeding the mid point, probably 20% on average, and 10% coming below. That is the normalised distribution. We come close enough within that curve. We are slightly less on the number exceeding and also slightly less on the level of underperformance.
Going back to Mr. Gleeson’s point, objectives are set at the start of the year based on balanced score cards and on our goals for the year. Those objectives are set with a staff member’s line manager and are reviewed regularly but very formally on a half-year basis and again at year end. At that point, the individual rating is assigned.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Uisce Éireann might write to us and give us details on that. I have limited time.
The second matter is the first fix free scheme. In the period covered by the accounts or similar periods, what is the total cost of the first fix free scheme?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a significant figure?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Why does Mr. McCarthy say that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On the first fix free scheme.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting Ms Attridge says that because prior to the creation of Uisce Éireann, the responsibility for that leak would have been on the resident’s side. Is that correct? There was no first fix free scheme.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I know from a local authority perspective that, if people suspected a leak had happened, the resident would put down a small amount of money and the council would come out and investigate it. If it was on one side of the wall, the local authority would pay for the leak and if it was on the other side, the resident would pay. That system is now much more complex where people report leaks and it looks like Uisce Éireann is taking the bulk of responsibility for that cost now and the local authority does not incur that cost.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
There are two elements to it. The individuals are not paying for the water, so there is not incentive on them to fix the water. As a result, we have the first fix scheme. In 2024, we spent €9 million on that scheme. In 2023, we spent €7 million. However, it benefits us all nationally to do that first fix scheme.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not in any way advocating for the return of domestic meter charging, and I want to be very clear on that, but people get really angry when they see persistent leaks in gardens that seep out onto the road. Often, there can be testing and Uisce Éireann says it is not fresh water, but pluvial and so on. Are there any other measures Uisce Éireann can take to try to prevent that or be more proactive in that? Does it need additional powers to be able to go onto properties, say, to proactively make repairs?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Instead of going down the charging route, which I would disagree with, Uisce Éireann would be given additional powers to go onto the property.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On a similar theme, I know a number of, let us say, sporting clubs or charities that might have issues with their water. They are paying a commercial charge. The lower cost of paying a higher water charge is less or is more manageable than the huge capital cost of carrying out a capital project to repair issues. Particularly for not-for-profits, does Uisce Éireann have measures in place to address that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Often, not-for-profits are operating year-by-year. They do not have large capital reserves.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
If they do have a leak, we give them a leakage allowance on the basis that they fix the leak. They come back to us with the leak being repaired and we give them a credit onto their bill, so we are pretty fair. I would say it would be rare that you would be able to let the taps run and not fix and not start to build up a fairly significant bill. I would say the capital intervention is probably the better route for most.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Sometimes, it can be a minor leak.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses spoke about local authority staff transferring over. Actually, I will ask two questions and see how much the witnesses get to answer. On transfers over, Uisce Éireann has taken the income away from the local authorities in terms of commercial charges - Uisce Éireann now receives it rather than them. Uisce Éireann might take the staff member over but it leaves the pension responsibility with the local authorities. The local authorities might have had 20 or 30 years of those people being employed with them and they have the pension responsibility for those people, but Uisce Éireann has taken the income from the local authority. How is that addressed in the overall service-level agreements?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Uisce Éireann leaves the liability with the local authority.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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But from the local authority finance perspective, local authority pensions are paid from current pay. Uisce Éireann has removed the income from the local authority and is not compensating the latter for that, and the authority is also left with the pension responsibilities.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The local authorities’ capacity to pay the pension is dependent on their current income.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
The difference between local authorities and us as a commercial semi-State is that we operate under current accounting, that is, international financial reporting standards, IFRS, accounting, hence the auditors and so forth. That is probably the difference. From our own perspective, we do a wraparound scheme. When they come across, they get a wraparound scheme, we protect them, they are protected on the historical-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am taking about local authority financing rather than the pension arrangements. Local authorities have lost their income stream but they retain the outgoings.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, Mr. Munnelly wishes to come in.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It it not resolved.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to be brief in their answers because time is against me. If the greater Dublin drainage scheme was given the green light in the morning, how long would it take for it to be complete?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
It is our view that it will be a four-year construction period. We would like to do some of the enabling works ahead of time. That would allow us reduce the actual construction period for the main works contract to three years. It is nothing new in terms of the works that have to be done. We have done many similar works on other projects. Our big challenge is just getting through all the statutory processes.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So four years, approximately. We cannot delve into legal challenges and so on but the best case scenario is that it is going to be after 2030 before this project would be up and running.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What level of headroom is there in the greater Dublin area in terms of housing development connections at present?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Currently the main plant in Dublin is Ringsend wastewater treatment plant. By the end of this year, capacity will be up to about 2.4 million population equivalent, PE, which should give us a headroom of about 200,000 PE, we estimate. Working at approximately 2.5 PE or 3 PE per house, it would probably be 70,000 to 90,000 homes.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that 90,000 homes in total?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Government is to get delivery of housing up to 50,000 in the coming years, we are going to face serious issues in the greater Dublin area.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. The point I am making is that the best case scenario is that it will be after 2030. If we can get to 50,000 houses, a high percentage of which will be in the greater Dublin area, we will likely face a scenario where we are not going to be able to connect properties. Is that fair to say?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We have a number of interim projects that we are looking at. There are hydraulic issues, so we are working with the local authorities very closely to take surface water out of the lines, which will restore hydraulic capacity. There are some further works we can carry out at Ringsend. They are complex and quite expensive but they can be done. That might add another 150,000 PE.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What does 150,000 PE mean in terms of houses?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That would be on top of the potential 80,000 so that is about 130,000, which will have to do us for the next five years.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A high percentage of them will be. We are at real risk and there is a serious issue in terms of potentially not being able to connect new developments in a number of years.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Turning to drinking water and the Shannon scheme, I understand Uisce Éireann intends to lodge an application this year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are we in a better or worse place in terms of headroom for drinking water versus wastewater, or are we in a similar sticky position?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are real risks there too in terms of drinking water if this project is delayed through planning or legal challenges.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn to the Government's announcement this week on developer-provided wastewater treatment in villages and smaller towns. Is that something Uisce Éireann welcomes?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I will ask Mr. Laffey to come in but, yes, we do welcome it. We have been looking for a solution to these smaller towns and villages for quite a while. The Minister's direction was quite clear to us, the Department and the EPA that we needed to come up with a solution. What we have worked through is workable.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We have been working with the Department and the EPA for the past two or three months on this. A number of smaller towns and villages either have no wastewater treatment or the wastewater treatment capacity is actually maxed out. We are looking to bring in a solution that can be provided by a developer to our standards and specifications and we would take over that wastewater treatment plant straight away, as soon as it is built.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That sounds good and positive. On existing wastewater treatment plants that have been provided by developers, we know there is a large legacy of them out there. Is there a plan to start taking them in charge?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it true that virtually none of these have been taken in charge to date by Uisce Éireann?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are several thousand across the country.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Uisce Éireann actively looking at those now in terms of moving them towards a position where they will be public?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When does Mr. Laffey envisage that we would take all of those 400-plus----
Mr. Sean Laffey:
I will be perfectly honest here, it is probably going to take about ten years. The engineering in some places can be complex; in other places it is not so complex. The legal issues are absolutely enormous. One particular DPI springs to mind that is part of the pilot scheme and there are 14 separate landowners involved, six of whom are deceased.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a huge body of work and it creates real problems on the ground.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The new scheme makes sense but the legacy issue also needs to be addressed and we need to get the same focus there.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn to the issue of employees and pay, which has been discussed. Some 93% received performance-related pay. It was stated earlier that those earning over €100,000 make up approximately a quarter of Uisce Éireann's workforce.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of those at that level of pay receive performance-related pay as well, obviously.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The average salary in the organisation in 2024 was about €75,000.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McCarthy not consider it a high-salary organisation at those levels of pay? I do not think there is a comparable organisation out there where 25% or so would on over €100,000.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We are slightly skewed in that we have not transferred all the local authority staff over. A lot of those would be lower grades, for example caretakers, operators. If the Deputy compares us to another organisation, we have a higher percentage of senior people. By the end of 2026, when everyone has transferred, that percentage of the higher paid will drop considerably. As Mr. McCarthy said, we are benchmarked against other authorities. We run a complex organisation. We have to hire scientists, engineers, accountants; these are not easy jobs.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Gleeson mentioned benchmarking. Is there another organisation where such a high percentage are on that level of pay?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does that include the ESB?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are there similar proportions on that level of salary?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The ratio will come down. The overall headcount is increasing. As a public representative on the ground, I find it more difficult to deal with an Uisce Éireann employee. I know from speaking with them individually that they will say they are covering larger areas and they are stretched more than they were a number of years ago. How can an increasing workforce with individuals on the ground seeming to be more stretched be squared? Is Uisce Éireann employing more administrators or are we employing more people on the ground to get jobs done?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
In our operating model, we are looking to take some of the day-to-day tasks that might previously have been carried out at a local level, with all different arrangements from when the 31 different local authorities ran the country, and we are trying to streamline the activity. For example, a water network caretaker will do the reactive work and will respond to complaints and we will have a find-and-fix leakage repair plant crew that will come in behind the caretaker, so the repair work is taken away. We are trying to take work, stand up centres of excellence so that we take work away from the front-line crew.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The feedback I am getting from staff on the ground is that they are more stretched than ever. Compared to an increasing workforce, it does not appear to make sense. I ask the witnesses to look at that. Drinking water quality in Cork city has been a significant issue in recent times, particularly from the Lee Road plant and the issues there with high levels of manganese.
There have been samples that the HSE has verified are at such a high level that they would pose a risk if they were consumed on an ongoing basis, and most people do consume water on an ongoing basis. I understand one particular sample had 35 times the acceptable limit of manganese. Where are we with resolving that issue for the residents of Cork city?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have made really good progress in the past 12 months. We have put in additional measures at our treatment plant to optimise the process. We now remove manganese at source, and we have adjusted the alkalinity so that we are not impacting on the network. In comparison to October two years ago, when we had close to 300 customer complaints coming in, this October there were fewer than 40. That is back down to the baseline levels there would always be in a city like Cork, where there is a huge old network. In Cork, there is 300 km of old cast-iron network. Cork has, in the past two years, replaced 30 km. That is 10% of the network that has been replaced. There has been huge investment in Cork in trying to upgrade the network.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When were the most recent samples taken?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are taken continually.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of the recent samples, have there been samples in breach of acceptable levels of manganese?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are we aiming to get that 94% compliance up to 100% compliance?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Do we hope to do that in the near future?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Attridge.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The next questioner is Deputy Boland.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Our witnesses are very welcome. I want to focus on communication. I think many of my colleagues would share my frustration, as a first time TD, trying to communicate with Irish Water. Obviously, we cannot use parliamentary questions with the structure under which the company operates. With some employees moving from local authorities into Uisce Éireann, councillors find it increasingly difficult to get information as to local water issues. What is the interaction between Uisce Éireann and local authorities in terms of information sharing? Are there challenges there? Is Uisce Éireann providing the local authorities with updates in relation to local water issues?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We still have very good relationships with local authorities, both at the executive and council level. We do workshops in every local authority. We have the LRSD line, a dedicated helpline for local representatives. That had 13,000 queries last year. The service is being used but there are challenges with it. Maybe they do not always like the answers we give but we are maintaining a good level of communication.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Uisce Éireann ever cite GDPR issues or anything like that in terms of communicating back to local authorities?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why has it not entered into a data-sharing agreement with the local authorities so it can share that data that they once would have had access to?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I know about it because people have complained about it. Councillors have complained about it to me. It seems there is an issue in the system and I would really appreciate if our witnesses would look at that-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----that the local authorities and Uisce Éireann are sharing information. If a data-sharing agreement will deal with that, it should be looked at urgently. In terms of communications with politicians and with customers, I noted the report of the CRU 2023 does mention some what I would consider serious failures, such as failure to report on key customer metrics resulting in a formal non-reporting letter from the CRU, some 62,000 affected by boil water notices lasting more than 30 days when the target is zero, and the customer charter and compensation rights seem to be completely and utterly unknown to the customers. If people complain to Uisce Éireann directly, they may be entitled to compensation, yet as we can see with more than 8,000 complaints to politicians who have followed up it, they are coming to us. There seems to be a gap in knowledge. Uisce Éireann’s customers do not seem to realise that if they went directly to Uisce Éireann, they might be eligible for compensation. What steps is it taking to rectify that?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We are constantly trying to improve our communication channels. I will first address engaging with public representatives. As Mr. Gleeson said, every year we get 13,000 inbound queries. Over the past 12 months, we put structures in place that are much better to improve our response to public representatives. This time last year we had a backlog of complaints that were open - the number of complaints open more than 60 days is what we measure ourselves against. We now have zero complaints open more than 60 days. I hope representatives are experiencing much improved-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When Ms Attridge says open, is that completely resolved after 60 days?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure I totally agree with that but I will come back to her.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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More than 62,000.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I fully appreciate why they are there but in terms of the target being zero, when we have more than 62,000 affected-----
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We understand the target is zero but we have issues in the systems and in the plants which require that we put on boil water notices. Some of them can be resolved quickly, and we do resolve them quickly, but I refer to others, the likes of Whitegate in Cork. We have been trying to resolve that for-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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For several years.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Are any of those people affected by boil order notices entitled to compensation?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
There were 62,000 boil water notices in 2023, and 32,000 in 2024. Having improved oversight control of our treatment plants, we are seeing a huge reduction in boil water notices. It shows the investment is delivering results for the customer. We have a text service in place to communicate boil water notices to customers, so if your area goes on a boil water notice and you are registered with us, you will get an immediate text alert. With regard to compensation, there is no compensation for boil water notices. They are put in place to protect public health. We do not do it lightly but it is something we are not afraid to do because our priority is to protect public health.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of compensation for customers, what is Uisce Éireann doing to communicate to customers they are entitled to compensation if they complain directly to it rather than going to their public representative?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I mean outside of boil water notices.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What steps is Uisce Éireann taking to make sure the customers are aware that if they complain directly to it rather than coming to us, they are entitled to compensation?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I know that but customers do not seem to know that if they go to Uisce Éireann directly, they are entitled to compensation because we can see, by the numbers, they are overwhelmingly coming to us, and that is a communication failure on the part of Uisce Éireann.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Customers clearly think they are better off coming to us rather than going directly to Uisce Éireann. That leads me to believe it is a failure on its part. They do not have confidence in Uisce Éireann dealing with it without us getting involved.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There are communication channels Uisce Éireann could use. It could email people or do a very short text. It has the text line, etc. There are steps it could take.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
The thing to remember is we do not have a customer database anymore because we do not bill people. On the domestic side, we do not know our customers. That is why we brought in the text messaging system. People can voluntarily sign up to that so we then have their eircode. People have signed up for that but we have to do it on a voluntary basis. That is one of our challenges.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I will move on. We have talked about a number of communications and performance issues, and I have highlighted them. I worked in the private sector in a company that was very successful and also very unsuccessful. I fully understand performance-related pay. What metrics is Uisce Éireann setting as the company's performance in order to deem that performance-related pay is relevant?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
Our metrics are agreed with the regulator in terms of outcomes for the next five years. That is where we start. We take those outputs and outcomes and then they become the annual valid scorecard update. They are right across capital investment, customer, the new connections process, sustainability, employee engagement and financial targets. To be fair, they are quite comprehensive.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does the regulator not deem the fact that the failure to report on key customer metrics, resulting in a formal non-reporting letter, would result in performance-related pay not being payable by the company? Would something that serious not affect the ability of the company to pay performance-related benefits?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I hope it would.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There are clear communications failures with customers and in terms of reporting, so it should bring down the overall score.
I want to come back to the representation. Trying to get new estates connected is a real challenge. Residents are going around in circles, as are potential homeowners and public representatives. Issues are complicated. There does not seem to be anyone whom we can pick up the phone and speak to. We get emails back and, to be honest, they do not really tell us very much. They refer to instructing a developer to avail of an alternative connection point or that the design for the connection point has yet to be agreed. Essentially, the reply is "not with us". There is no one that we can have a conversation with to talk about how we move these things along. Is there a process? I have more complicated questions than that. That is a very straightforward one.
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
That is okay. In terms of housing and connections, we have put in place a developer liaison team for engaging with developers. This year, we established a new engineering team within that team. It very much works with developers to address technical issues and to help with any issues that may arise during planning, and also to work on the detail of those applications with respect to water services as they come through our process, and identifying where it is possible to connect and where we can facilitate it.
Right across our organisation, from within customer to infrastructure delivery and asset management, we are always trying to find ways to enable development and to say "Yes". There are complications, going back to the size and extent of our network. That can be challenging at times. I am happy to take away some of the specific details Deputy Boland has. Where they relate to a one-off house, I hope she understands that it could be complicated. For large developments, we have a specialised team in place. The small one-off connections are coming through our call centre. We have a new team in place there as well to try to fast-track that. We have put a lot of additional resources into that space this year and we are starting to see our performance metrics increase in terms of response rate. I appreciate that there could be challenges at a particular point in time. I am happy to follow up with the Deputy.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I find it very challenging to get a response on complicated issues, so I would appreciate it if I could contact Ms O'Dwyer.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses very much for joining us. I come from Drogheda, the largest town in the country. I am sure the witnesses are well aware that there is a huge development boom, both infrastructure and much-needed housing, under way in the northern environs of Drogheda. There are also significant plans for the next five to seven years. There are concerns that capacity constraints in Uisce Éireann will impact on the delivery of houses and much-needed access to the port with the port access northern cross route, PANCR. Those who are aware of Drogheda will know the first phase of the PANCR, which was delivered in the last couple of years, was funded and aided by development levies. The housing and the roads go hand in hand. We need the road to unlock the residential development and we need the housing to perhaps fund part of the road. Will the witnesses give me an update on where we are at currently with the plans for water and wastewater treatment in the north of Drogheda to be able to facilitate the boom and growth that will come in the next couple of years?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Perhaps we could send the Deputy a note on Drogheda in particular. With any large town, we are endeavouring to ensure those plans are in place. We might just take that away in order to give the Deputy the specifics that she would need in a note.
We work very closely with the local authorities. We have a forward planning team and we engage quite a lot in the plan-making process to ensure that we are aligned. The new Planning and Development Act has extended the length of those plans, which I think will help us all to be more aligned and to plan better for the future as well. We endeavour to share our information in terms of our capacity registers with the local authorities and they share their plans with us. In that way, we are trying to deliver in a plan-led way and find solutions in the interim if a development is moving at a faster pace than we might have anticipated.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I do not want to put Ms O'Dwyer on the spot, but I would appreciate it if she could send me a note on Drogheda.
It is heartening to hear Ms O'Dwyer say Irish Water has a good relationship with the local authorities and it works with them. A relationship is needed with developers as well to ensure that the infrastructure is in place to support the delivery of much-needed homes. Like some of my colleagues who spoke before me said, we have already met difficulties in regard to some of the development that has been delivered recently. I refer to Beaulieu Banks on the Termonfeckin Road, which is the most recent one. New homeowners were held up for a number of months recently as they tried to get connections. These houses are badly needed in the middle of a massive housing crisis. It can be very difficult. As elected representatives, we are the first point of contact. We go to the local authority, which tell us they are impressing on Irish Water the volume of applications that are in the system. The developers have not mentioned the developer liaison teams Irish Water referenced. They are telling us they cannot get answers. There is a huge difficulty already. I have major concerns that with 5,000 houses and a potential population growth of 20,000 people coming in the next five years, we will meet more difficulties.
I also have huge concerns about capacity. As a councillor in 2018, I visited the Stalleen water treatment plant when the new pipeline was being delivered. At that stage, we got a figure of the export rate being 30,000 cu. m of water being delivered a day in Stalleen at that time. The new pipeline was not going to deliver much more than that. It was going to improve efficiency, but it was not going to increase capacity. Seven years later, we already have 2,000-plus new houses added on to the capacity requirement, with another 4,000 to 5,000 to come over the next few years. I and every other elected representative in Drogheda, be it a councillor or TD, past or present, have major concerns about capacity. Any information and, in particular, reassurance that Irish Water could give would be appreciated. The witnesses could also highlight areas that we could help them with, as we are not just here to criticise. We are a point of contact, not just for the people who live in the area but for developers as well.
We are relying on all these houses to deliver much-needed community infrastructure and sporting amenities such as new football stadiums and municipal pitches. There is a new IDA park coming in and we hope to attract FDI companies. Everything hinges on utilities. It is not just Uisce Éireann, because we also have difficulties with the ESB, which I am sure the witnesses can appreciate. There is a real fear that all of this will hamper the growth of the town and the infrastructure that is needed to support it.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Number one, Drogheda has been identified by us as a critical development centre in the regional spatial and economic strategies, RSESs. When we asked for support for growth we got an additional €2 billion and Drogheda will be directly supported with that.
The only comment I will make to the Deputy on developers is that things are rarely black and white.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
I want to put that on record. A lot of the time when issues arise, it is not Uisce Éireann. The issues are well understood but are very complicated to overcome. In some cases, we cannot meet the timelines because of other particular issues.
The third comment I would make is that the future of the water supply for the Drogheda area, which is dependent on Stalleen and Cavan Hill, is dependent on the water supply from the Shannon going across to the greater Dublin area, so we can stop taking water from Stalleen and Cavan Hill and feeding it to Dublin and we can direct it towards Dundalk and Drogheda.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does that pose a risk? I am aware of Irish Water's €22 million investment in a 2.3 km sewer pipeline, which is under way at the moment.
Is there a risk if there is reliance on projects in other areas to be able to move water across? If there are delays in projects in the greater Dublin area and the Shannon, will it pose a risk?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
As we increase resilience in our water networks and water supplies across the country, they become increasingly interdependent. What you will find is that there will ultimately be knock-on effects. At the moment, we are not seeing anything that is going to impact on Drogheda, but what I am saying is that the long-term water supply, which will be climate-proofed and resilient and guarantee a supply for Drogheda, is dependent on us delivering on the water supply project.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is great. I thank Mr. Laffey.
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
I will comment on engagement with developers. We have a developer forum that we hold on a quarterly basis. Many of our contacts in our connections team would be available to the main developers so we can troubleshoot these issues. In this regard, Mr. Laffey referred to the nuances of the particular problems. It is easy to say there is a water problem, but that does not necessarily mean it is on a particular side.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I would imagine relationships have been built at this stage-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----because it is the same handful of developers who have developed in recent times.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The earlier developers engage with us, the better. Many of the issues I have come across and that we have tried to resolve arise where water has been a kind of afterthought and the developer engages later. That has led to challenges with infrastructure. I am not referring to every developer but it is a matter of encouraging them. We have a pre-connection service and a connections service and we are open to talk to any developer who wants to do so.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Just before I move on, I presume the volume of approvals in local authorities is monitored consistently between Uisce Éireann and the local authorities?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Within the asset management function, we have a planning team. They are professional planners. We meet authority planning sections, if not monthly, then on a quarterly basis. It would be quarterly with some of the smaller local authorities. We are very involved in the RSES process. We are always involved with county development plans, and now we are involved in the rezoning of land because, ultimately, we have to understand what each local authority wants to do within its functional area so we can support it.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On developer-provided infrastructure, I think it was mentioned that there were 450 estates outstanding. Does Mr. Laffey know how many homes that represents?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Laffey could provide that, it would be great. If he knows the cost of addressing this, what is it?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The number of homes is not particularly large. It is interesting to note that 70% of all the applications we get for connections are for developments of ten houses or fewer. Many of the extant developer-provided infrastructure, DPI, cases relate to developments of fewer than 25 houses.
I could not give the Deputy a cost at the moment because that team I mentioned that we have put in place is assessing every single DPI. We have yet to settle on a final figure because, as we work across the various local authorities, we are finding more that were not listed in the initial survey. All I can say is that it will take about ten years. Some of the solutions are relatively complex because the discharge from existing wastewater treatment plants is going into water bodies, causing environmental damage. We will have to consider a different mechanism for the disposal of the wastewater. I would not like to mislead the committee by giving it a figure. It will be substantial; there is no doubt about that. It is going to take time. However, the technical details associated with getting things fixed are relatively straightforward. The legal issues associated with maintenance and acquiring ownership from companies that have become defunct, acquiring wayleave and acquiring rights of way and access are where the challenges will arise. That will be time-consuming.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I welcome everyone. I am going to be quite parochial in most of my questions. I represent the northside of Cork city, where the water quality has been absolutely disastrous for a number of years. I want to refer to the number of complaints made, as mentioned by Deputy McGrath. The number of complaints has come down because people are not complaining anymore. They are sick and tired of complaining; that is why the number has come down. Two friends of mine living on Lee Road, Cork, took a brown shower on Tuesday night. They did not make a complaint whereas previously they would have. That is why the number of complaints has fallen.
Back in January, "Prime Time" investigated water quality on the northside of Cork city. Of a total of 246 samples, 166 were tested for manganese between May 2024 and January 2025. How many were tested this year?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have taken over 1,000 samples this year to test for manganese right across the city, at 50 locations. Ninety-four percent of those are compliant with the drinking water regulations.
On the Lee Road, I acknowledge there was an issue there. We have works planned for mains in that area, starting in 2026.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The report states the HSE understands from Uisce Éireann that it does not consider the Cork northside population to be exposed to manganese above 80 µg/l on an ongoing basis, based on the monitoring of results. Is that the 94% mentioned?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
The WHO guideline states 80 µg/l. Compliance with that is at 98%. We met the HSE as recently as yesterday and have been meeting it regularly over the past couple of years to keep it updated. We have a protocol in place. As of yesterday, the HSE is very happy with the progress being made in Cork city and the measures we have put in place to protect public health.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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When "Prime Time" raised this, Uisce Éireann’s website showed 100% compliance in Cork city last year. Why was that?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Would Ms Attridge believe the public is being misled? What if the public were to look at Uisce Éireann’s website content on drinking water quality? If I were living in Knocknaheeny, Farranree, Mayfield or somewhere like that and I saw there was 100% compliance, I would surely say it was completely misleading because there is brown water coming out of my tap.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
The protocol we have in place with the HSE is to write to customers individually and notify them when there is manganese exceedance. We flush the system and write again when it is clear. We have been open and transparent with impacted customers. The problem is in pockets of Cork – the old areas where there are cast iron networks. We have extensive flushing programmes in those areas. We have been proactive in our flushing over the past few years and the results are good. We met public representatives as recently as in the last month and the feedback from both TDs and local councillors, obtained from people in the city, is that the situation has improved.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It has improved, but there is still brown water coming out of taps. Ultimately, that is the position.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I will move on to the pipeline project from Birdhill to Parteen Basin. How much has been spent on this to date?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How much, to the nearest €100 million, does Ms O’Dwyer believe the project will cost?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Does Ms O’Dwyer believe a figure between €4.6 billion and €5.9 billion represents value for money?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Yes. That estimate has been externally reviewed and challenged. We should consider the significant nature of the project and what it would deliver. It is crucial, not only for the greater Dublin area but also for Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. In time, the project will actually serve the population all along the eastern and midlands corridor. It is vital for towns like Mullingar, which spent much of this year subject to a boil water notice because of the challenges we faced.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What is the timeframe in terms of the delivery of the project?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Again, we will submit our strategic infrastructure and development planning application with our CPO at the end of this year. We have been working closely with An Coimisiún Pleanála on that application. We would be hopeful that we would get a positive decision within the 48-week timeline.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In terms of the cost again, can we reassure the taxpayer that it is definitely going to cost between €4.6 million and €5.3 million?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
We have reviewed our Estimates of late. We are very confident and happy with the Estimate range that was approved last June. We are still holding strong on that. What we are finding is that the biggest cost is actually time delays. It is critically important that we get the support of all agencies in the State. Again, we would really appreciate the committee's support in terms of encouraging everybody looking at this project to actually see the value and the benefits it will bring.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Going back to the parochial stuff again, I want to reference another village I represent, Carrignavar, and the upgrading of the wastewater treatment plant there. How much was allocated to the small towns and villages programme?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How many projects were in Cork? Was it seven?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I think it was seven. How many is that based off across the country?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How many of those are completed?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Do we have a timeframe on the rest of them?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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When did they begin?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Four have been completed in three years.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In relation to the priority list that the local authorities would have had to outline, Uisce Éireann is being blamed for the wastewater treatment plant in Carrignavar. Does Mr. Laffey blame the local authority?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I am speaking to members of the public. This is happening. We had a meeting last week in Carrignavar. They are blaming Uisce Éireann, even though I have spoken to staff members in Uisce Éireann. I have great sympathy because they are blaming Uisce Éireann when the priority list is created by local authorities.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The difficulty for Carrignavar is that a house has not been built there in 20 years. That is the difficulty. In terms of the priority list, is Mr. Laffey saying Cork County Council is leaving the people of Carrignavar behind, as such, in terms of a priority?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
To be perfectly honest, I could not comment because the prioritisation is based on the assessment of the planners in Cork County Council and where they see their priority settlements. Ultimately, we are working internally. As I mentioned this morning, the Minister has been very clear that he wants small towns and villages and rural settlements to be catered for. We accept that because we understand people need homes.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Out of the 280-odd that were started, Carrignavar is number 13 on the priority list. Carrignavar is another six off in terms of Cork County Council. We will probably be waiting another 20 years for the wastewater treatment plant in Carrignavar to be done, considering only four have been completed in three years across the country.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It will be 40 years without a house being built in Carrignavar.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
----- we can develop an approach with the EPA that looks at modular treatment plants that can be fabricated offsite and installed, with discharge at a standardised emission value that receiving waters can accept. They can be delivered in a fraction of the time that a traditional upgrade will.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Laffey for that.
An Teachta Bennett asked about hard water supply. I was born and bred in Mallow. I live in a house where we have gone through about 30 or 40 kettles since I was born. We have gone through about 30 washing machines. We are going through shower heads like they are going out of fashion. I understand, because I drink from the tap, that hard water is not going to have an effect on my health, but has Uisce Éireann ever communicated to the Department that we need a grant for water softeners for hard water supplies within the country? Has Uisce Éireann ever communicated that to the Department based on the number of complaints it is receiving?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Would Mr. Laffey make that recommendation at all? Even based off this conversation, two TDs out of 11 have raised the hard water issue. In Mallow, hard water is one of the prime things that comes up on the doorstep every time we go canvassing.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I am talking about urban houses.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department looked at this area?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Would Mr. Munnelly please ask them to establish a water softener grant? It is the most vulnerable people in the community who cannot afford water softeners. They cannot put them in place. Please bring that back.
I want to refer to some of the staff with whom I have engaged in Irish Water, particularly in Cork, who have been extremely good to me since I began being a public representative. One of them in particular is in this room, and I want to reference him.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will now take a short break.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy James Geoghegan.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for attending today. I will start with performance-related pay straightaway. How many of the 2,000 staff in Irish Water are eligible for performance-related pay?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Will the 1,200 and 800 staff coming over from local authorities be eligible for performance-related pay as well?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Did I hear Mr. McCarthy correctly when he said 90% of employees received some form of performance-related pay in 2024?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In 2024, just in lay terms, what would Mr. McCarthy say were the areas where there were good performances from Irish Water?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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No, not Mr. McCarthy's own perspective, just in terms of-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, 93% of the company's employees got some form of performance-related pay, bonuses, or whatever you want to call them.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is obviously related to some good performance that Irish Water did. In lay terms, what would Mr. McCarthy say the company's good performances were?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, so drinking water. Keep going.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
We reduced boil water notices. We had a capital investment plan and some large projects under way, like those in Arklow and Athlone main drainage systems. We delivered €1.3 billion of capital spending during that year, which was our highest amount of capital spending ever. We managed within our finances and our operating and capital expenditure requirements. We had good employee engagement. I mentioned earlier that there was work to be done around our new connections process and that is still ongoing. It is, though, definitely improving. There was work to be done around our communications side and we were conscious of that as well, from a customer perspective.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The top things, then, are clean water, fewer boil notices and spending money on major capital projects. Would it be fair? That contributed-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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No, I understood that and it has been explained very clearly, in fairness. I just wanted to-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I get that, and that is fair. I just wanted to understand in general terms. If 93% of people who work for Irish Water are getting performance-related pay for their performance, I just wanted to understand where the company saw that performance being. I ask this question because one of the biggest things we hear about regarding housing concerns delays in Irish Water connections to housing and one of the biggest reasons Irish Water got so much money in the recent budget was that Irish Water, on the front of The Irish Times, in a really good PR campaign, said it did not have enough money to meet the cost of connections to the houses coming down the road or that we want to build as part of the housing targets.
I just want to go back to the housing connection issues because, in fairness, I do not think the question was answered. How many houses did Irish Water connect in 2024?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is my interpretation.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am entitled to give my interpretation, so can I just ask the question? How many houses did Irish Water connect in 2024? I just want the connection figures, one figure.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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No. It is a really simple question. I do not want offers. How many houses did Irish Water connect in 2024? That is clearly a single figure. Can you just tell me that single figure?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Those offers were associated with 41,169 housing units. We make the connection to single domestic connections at the property and we make the connection to single business connections at the property. For housing developments or apartments, we are making those connections at the point of the connection to the public network.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is the answer to my question that Irish Water connected 41,000 housing units or what is the answer to my question? What are the numbers?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Does Irish Water know the number of housing units it made connections to in 2024?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is not my question. My question is-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Irish Water does not know. Is the answer that Irish Water does not know the number of housing units it connected?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I understand that.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I understand that too.
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
-----to be built out. What I am saying, I suppose, is that the number I have available here today would say that those connections enabled the connection of 41,000 units last year, and as those houses come on. We probably explained to the Department that we were not able to help the Government in terms of counting the actual number, but we can be very clear about what the capacity is there in respect of what can be facilitated to connect in any given year.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So Irish Water does not know how many houses it has connected? Is this what is being said to me?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I just want to know the answer. Irish Water does not know but it estimates that it might be 41,000 based on-----
Mr. Sean Laffey:
What we are saying is that if every single house for which we facilitate the capacity was taken up, 41,000 homes would have been connected. We do not, though, connect individual homes and estates. We might connect the pipe into a network that facilitates 500 homes, so we say we facilitated 500 homes, but the Department-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There might be internal stuff going on that-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Irish Water, then, will never really know in each calendar year how many houses it has connected to? Is that correct?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How, then, does Irish Water know it needs more money to meet the housing targets for next year and the years beyond, if it does not know how many houses it is connecting to now?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
It is because we know that if we have capacity in a wastewater treatment plant for 1,500 homes and we give away capacity for 500 homes, we then have capacity left for 1,000 homes. If the local authority tells us it needs to build 2,500 homes in the next five years in that location, then we would be 4,000 population equivalent short, so we would have to invest.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does this situation distort Irish Water's figures then? If it is giving away capacity to a greater number of houses than may ultimately be connected, does this distort Irish Water's own understanding of what availability it has from a capacity perspective?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
No, because our connection and developer services team record all that. We record what capacity has been reserved for development. Once a connection agreement is signed with us, then it is a contract. If a contract agreement is signed with us for 500 houses, the company concerned will pay for 500 houses and we will give it the capacity for 500 houses. We will then go back to our systems and record that 500 houses worth of water and wastewater is no longer available because Deputy Geoghegan has taken it.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is not a relevant figure for Irish Water to know and it does not know. Is that fair?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How can the Government, then, satisfy itself that when it hands over the billions of euro it is handing over to Irish Water, that it is connecting its water services to the housing that we want to deliver?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We do not talk about numbers like that. We will make the capacity available for 50,000 homes per year. That is what we are looking to do. As that 50,000 capacity is taken up every single year, we need to replace it with something. Also, I might have that capacity in a local treatment plant but to make it available I need to build out the network to get that treatment capacity to the development. We know what is required.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Laffey mentioned treatment capacity. The Dublin drainage programme is existential to the delivery of homes in this city. The Taoiseach in reply to questions I asked in the Dáil - I think he said it also at the CIF conference - indicated there may be a need for bespoke legislation to deal with delivery of the Dublin drainage project, notwithstanding the existence of the judicial review. Is Mr. Gleeson aware of any of that? Has he had any discussions with the Government on bespoke legislation to address this issue?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I am on the infrastructure delivery task force and that is one of the recommendations from the task force that is being considered. In the case of GDD, I am not sure it would help. It might help in the water supply project because it is not as far along the process. If we get out of judicial review next year, our request to the Government is to start procurement straight away on the process for delivering GDD.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Have Uisce Éireann's lawyers advised it that the judicial review of the Dublin drainage project can be done within 12 months?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There is some hope and promise there. Mr. Laffey gave some scary figures, from my perspective as a Dublin Bay South TD, on additional capacity that may be necessary for all the homes that the Ringsend wastewater treatment plant already supplies. I think it is 40% of the country, there or thereabouts.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is an eye-watering figure. Mr. Laffey said maybe some of the non-domestic load use will be pre-treated to reduce it. A big issue is the effluent and untreated sewage that goes into Dublin Bay. It is not just from the treatment plant; adjacent to it is an open pipe that comes from Ailesbury Park and St. Alban's Park. I do not know how familiar Mr. Laffey is with that. It is a very localised area but this has plagued people living in the area for a long time. It is a UNESCO biosphere. It has had no-swim notices for the last six or seven years in a row. What can Irish Water do about those notices and the environmental issues arising in Dublin Bay from the pipes going in from an estate with storm water outflow and from the treatment plant itself?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It will probably not reduce capacity in the treatment plant, though, will it?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Uisce Éireann will still have storm water overflow tanks, presumably.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Of course we will. The system is designed to work that way. There are storm water overflow tanks and there are storm water overflows on the networks because the networks were designed that way. If there is a misconnection or raw sewage discharge, we can certainly look at taking those into our system. On the storm water overflows on the networks, we are looking to work with local authorities. We want blue-green infrastructure. We want people to stop hardening their driveways. We want developers to put in sustainable urban drainage systems and we want to work with local authorities to divert, where possible, surface water from our networks.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Could I get a commitment from somebody here to engage with the Sandymount and Merrion residents association, which has written several letters, made EPA complaints and has really been stonewalled by Irish Water in terms of its communications? Will someone follow up with me afterwards and we will have a direct engagement?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I greatly appreciate that. Thank you.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody for being here. We are into our second or third hour at this stage. Did the utility have its full complement of staff in 2024?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
It is a combination. We are in a hybrid model at the moment. We have the local authority water services staff and Uisce Éireann staff. Over the course of 2024 and 2025, the local authority staff have been moving over to Uisce Éireann. Some have decided they have spent their lives working for the local authority, are at retirement age and do not want to move, so they are either moving back into the local authority or retiring. We have had a fairly large recruitment programme in place, so we are filling those roles as quickly as possible. In the past 12 months, I think we have recruited close to 700 people to fill roles as they become vacant.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If we combined those who have not and will not come over but are still working away with those working for Uisce Éireann right now, would that be the full complement at this point?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. With regard to local authority workers, what percentage or number have come over and then gone back?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They leave and then they come back and then they leave again.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We will engage with them, see if we have a position and if they can come over to us through recruitment, but they have made the decision to go back. Working in water services is a career and people live and work in their communities. For some people, when they move into other sections of the local authority, they lose part of the community involvement they have had. Many local authority people fear they will be relocated to some other area of their county. What is emerging is they are not. We have many operational centres across the country that facilitate people staying and living locally. We want people staying and working in their communities. As people see that, it gives them more confidence to come over to us.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand that. Having been a member of a local authority for six years, I clearly see that it is progressing but it would be remiss of me not to emphasise the frustration felt by huge pockets of the community about who they can hold to account, question or get information from. If you ask the council, the query is often put forward to Uisce Éireann. It is a difficult situation. Hopefully, when that is completed in 2026, that will come to an end and there will be increased communication between communities and the utility.
What is the nature of the relationship between Uisce Éireann and the big five? What is the nature of its work with external consultants? What is the level of engagement on design? What roles of third-party consultants did Uisce Éireann avail of in, say, 2024?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
Specific consultancy as required under the code is spelled out in our annual report. The number is, from memory, in the region of €3.5 million and it is spread across the suite of requirements. That is specific consultancy as required under the code, which is where we rely on a specific piece of advice or report from them. It is not just the big four. It is all sorts of technical matters. Given the nature of our organisation, there is a lot of engineering and technical expertise required that is not financial in nature.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does that ever stray into what might be reasonably expected to be an internal competency?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
That is an interesting point. For example, there is the Uisce Éireann transformation, UET, programme whereby we bring across the local authorities. We have had on some occasions to bring in resources, but they are directed by ourselves. We bring them in through third-party firms to do that specific piece of work on our direction.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What would that be?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have had to build new head-count management systems and payroll systems to pay a large number of staff on a wide variety of terms and conditions.
With regard to IT systems, we have had to make sure that all the local authority officers or the operational centres now where people are based are linked into Irish Water systems and that everybody is provided with laptops and phones, and roll out new handheld units. There is a huge IT element to it.
Up until six months ago, we were operating on 31 different local authority safety management systems. We had to develop our own. First of all, we had to take them over and put them onto our systems and work to them and then we had to develop our own safety management system, roll that out and train everybody on that. There was a huge training element.
We have had to get all the local authority - over 2,000 people - staff training records and put them onto our system-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was that all facilitated externally?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was a reference to the key buzzword around here sometimes, ICT infrastructure. Is there anything there that we need to be concerned about with regard to ICT projects, such as delays, overruns or anything like that, or has it gone seamlessly in terms of any software development or new systems?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
We have strong governance systems overall. Any project that we do is managed very well. From that perspective, we have not had any issues.
Within our financial reports, we have a write-down number of €7.4 billion right across our estate of €8.8 billion but that is required under IFRS requirements where we have to do an impairment review annually and then bring it into the financial statements. That was across 40 projects, mainly not ICT related with the exception of one. If I was to say one, it was not even, I would say, an ICT type but was around the modelling of weather data because, obviously, given our nature, we have a huge requirement to understand forecast weather patterns, rainfall, drought conditions, etc. We were using the information that was available from Met Éireann. However, Met Éireann, we believe, is now doing up its system and we are going to get further information. As a result of that, we have paused that project. We have actually written down the cost - it was less than €50,000 - but in the event that we need it down the line, we can go back to it when we understand what information Met Éireann now makes available to us.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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With the little time I have left, could Mr. McCarthy shed some light on the legal settlements over the last couple of years and the self-insured nature of that? What does that mean? Who is taking cases against Uisce Éireann and what are we likely to see in terms of that major settlement in 2027?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is the model to challenge or settle cases or how does that work? When legal cases like that arise, do we settle?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
Absolutely not. We look at every case on an individual basis and we challenge where appropriate. Obviously, if we are wrong, we do have to settle, but if we feel they are in any way vexatious, we absolutely challenge them all the way to the court. We have won recently. We have in the region of 500 cases a year.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Uisce Éireann have legal services on a retainer or who represents it?
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
Yes, we have them. Through a framework agreement we have third-party legal services, but we have an in-house legal team. We also have an in-house claims team because our insurance is such a big area. Five hundred claims a year is not insignificant and each one of those has to be dealt with.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Perhaps Mr. McCarthy could shed some light on that 2027 piece. Are a lot of settlements that are due to be made in the next couple of years pending?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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From the briefing notes that I was looking at, we see potentially a forecast of what might be accrued in terms of settlement costs.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
In terms of settlement, there is no absolute drop-dead date with regard to settlements. We forecast on an annual basis what we believe will be settled in the following year. In some cases, they are settled. In some cases, they carry on. There are some legacy cases there since pre-2014, pre our inception, that are still ongoing and we are still going through that. In fairness, we deal very swiftly with a lot of the smaller ones, like, as I said, the 500 insurance claims a year.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le gach eile duine anseo atá as Uisce Éireann. I appreciate them being here today and taking the time to answer our questions. I had a very positive engagement a few months ago with Uisce Éireann where they took me through its procurement system and showed me how it manages procurement, tendering and all of its obligations. Given that the C and AG has given it a clear audit opinion, I am not going to be focusing on procurement today. I know it is publishing its purchase orders and operating a transparent and quite comprehensive corporate governance model.
What I want to focus on today are maybe some things that are working well for Uisce Éireann. Sometimes we do not often enough look at projects that have done well and I would like to give my first minute to that. I am from Athenry. I have seen the upgrade of the wastewater treatment system there and the extension of our sewage network be quite positive and I know that the Arklow plant was delivered on time and on budget. Could I get maybe a minute on why those projects were able to come in on time and on budget and in how many more projects can we expect to see similar results?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Our track record is pretty good when we get to the ground. When we start delivering boots on the ground in execution, we are pretty good. The vast majority of our cost increases are caused by delays - planning delays and judicial reviews - where, basically, inflation just drives the cost of the project up.
Ms O'Dwyer might elaborate on why those individual projects were successful.
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
We have robust processes in place in terms of managing our capital investment plan. Over the last ten years, we have been building on our capability here. We have a lot of in-house expertise in terms of how we are doing it and then we have a strong indigenous supply chain.
When it comes to planning our investments, we do a lot of work in trying to understand the risks early on. We take them through our invest-to-outcome process, which is where we take all our projects through different workshops from early-stage optioneering, looking at the risks at the different stages and looking at what is the appropriate procurement-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms O'Dwyer. I appreciate that. Going back to a point that Deputy Farrelly made, there was an article on €9.3 million paid out in compensation over the last few years. What generally leads to compensation being paid out by Uisce Éireann?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I will let Mr. McCarthy come in in a minute, but a typical one would be, say, a burst pipe, which might flood a house. It might damage a car outside. The family might have to move out of that accommodation. We would have to put them up in a hotel. Those can be quite substantial claims when we have to refurbish the house. To be honest, with the network we have, it is very hard to prevent those kinds of issues.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That was going to be my next question. What has Uisce Éireann learned having paid out so much and what mitigation measures can it put in place?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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One of the toughest experiences that faced many of my constituents in Galway East this year was during Storm Éowyn at the start of the year. Nobody could have anticipated just how devastating that storm would be, but it showed that there is a massive gap in our resilience and ability to respond to storm events like that, and particularly with a lot of our drinking water plants in north Galway and Roscommon. We had plants that were out for six or seven days. I cannot fault the people on the ground who were working hard to get them back online and I cannot fault the fact that Uisce Éireann had to go and find generators for them. My question is looking to the future. What is the plan if power to a treatment plant or one of our water systems is cut again? Will Uisce Éireann have generators in place the next time this happens? That is an issue that the public want to see serious action on.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
I might let Ms Attridge come in on the preparedness there.
When Storm Éowyn hit, we had a peak of approximately 100,000 people without water because of the lack of electricity supply, but we had 400,000 people getting their water supplied by generator-driven plants, so we had a lot preparedness already built in. It was just that Storm Éowyn was quite exceptional. We have ordered a lot more generators. There are two things with generators; one, is to make the plants generator-ready-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is it Uisce Éireann's goal to have all plants generator-backed in the future?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Can Uisce Éireann land a generator on-site if a specific plant goes down?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
The plants will be generator-ready, which means they will be plug and play. We can drive a generator up and plug it in. A lot of them are not right now. We have to hard wire them in. That is a big programme we are undertaking at the moment. That will be done. We have also things like in the more remote areas like Galway there are pumping stations, which could be a small thing on the side of the road. We cannot put a permanent generator there, but we can make them generator-ready. I think we have 100.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We have put in permanent generators at an additional 30 sites over the summer months. We have purchased another 80 generators that we have ourselves. We have also worked with suppliers to make sure we have more availability of generators through our frameworks in the event of an incident. We are putting in an additional 300 plug-in points this year.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome that Uisce Éireann has taken that action to put those generators in place, but it is important to say that the one thing about that storm is that people suffered a lot more going six or seven days without water than electricity. The water really hit people hard. I emphasise that point again. Uisce Éireann should take as much action as it possibly can because it is a worthwhile exercise. It might only happen once a year, but there is a fear that it will become more frequent. If Uisce Éireann takes action, people will be grateful. That we are ready for events like these is the minimum people expect given all we know about climate change.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
Storm Éowyn was a national event. There was a much quicker response to recent storms, such as Storm Amy, because it was more localised. We could move all our stock of generators to one area. Most storm events hit one part of the country and are not national. By having that central stockpile, we can move them to where the need is greatest.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to talk about farmers. Farmers are at risk of losing their nitrates derogation. There is rightly a huge amount of concern. Ireland is one of the only countries left in the European Union that has a derogation. Farmers have been pushed so much over the past few years to their bit for the environment, to contribute and to comply. Is Uisce Éireann doing as much as the farmers?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
That is correct. We will be the seventh largest pressure on water bodies across the country after the next river basin management plan cycle. There are approximately 4,800 water bodies as per the river basin management plan. We are a pressure on 197 of those. Farmers, and farming in general, are a pressure on 1,000 of those water bodies. This comes from data compiled by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, so it is all scientifically-backed.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What portion of the nutrient loading in priority catchments come from municipal wastewater discharges versus agriculture?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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In general, where a wastewater treatment system is discharging, is it contributing?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Our wastewater treatment systems are a loading on our water bodies. It will vary from place to place depending on the size of the water body and how many farmers are also feeding into it. All I can tell the Deputy is that out of the 4,800 water bodies in the country, we are a sole source pressure on 32 of them.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Have many wastewater treatments systems that are discharging breached their limits in recent years?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The EPA report from last year stated that there were 1,000 incidents. If the Deputy looks at the urban wastewater treatment directive, which provides for the basic standard treatment, 98% of our wastewater treatment plants meet that standard. If the Deputy looks at licensing, 48% of those wastewater treatment plants meet that standard. That is what we are working on.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The Deputy must recall that we have 1,100 wastewater treatment plants. Some 750 of those wastewater treatment plants, which are the vast majority of what we are looking at, collect less than 4% of the load. The impact we are talking about in terms of non-compliance from a licensing point of view for the vast majority of plants is minimal at best.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have an issue with it because if farmers breach their nitrates levels, they face immediate stocking reductions. What does Uisce Éireann face for breaches in its discharge limits?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Where does that hit Uisce Éireann?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the biggest fine Uisce Éireann faced in recent times?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That was a €20,000 fine on an organisation that spends billions of euro on its operations. It seems like a slap on the wrist.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
If the Deputy looks at our asset base, we have water, wastewater, networks and treatment plants. We are focusing on wastewater treatment right now. We also have maintenance that we have to do. We estimate that to bring all of our networks, wastewater treatment plants and water treatment plants up to a good standard is going to cost between €60 billion and €70 billion because of the underinvestment of previous decades. What we are doing is looking at all our wastewater treatment plants and tackling them on a case-by-case basis. We are prioritising compliance and we are prioritising our investments to make sure we get the best bang for our buck in terms of impact on the environment.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Laffey believe municipal dischargers undermine Ireland's ability to defend the derogation in Brussels?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the witnesses' answers and them being here today. I thank them for their comprehensive answers across the board.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. I welcome the witnesses. As a Wicklow-based TD, I want to commend Uisce Éireann on the work it carried out in Arklow. It brought that huge project to completion six months ahead of schedule. It has dragged on for the past 20 years, if not longer, and held the town to ransom. We are now finally in a position to unlock the huge potential that Arklow has to offer.
A number of members referred to developer provided infrastructure and there was an announcement from the Minister this week that will allow that process to be used again. The officials put a number of statistics on record in terms of legacy estates. I think they gave the figure of 457 estates in a recent parliamentary question response. They mentioned that as part of the process of going out on-site and investigating these estates, a number of other locations have been identified. Will someone put a number on that? How does a situation like this arise?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Eight or nine years ago, we asked local authorities, along with ourselves, to do an initial survey of all DPIs that had been left over from the Celtic tiger. We came back with a figure of 457. They are a solid core and we are looking at those. However, at the start of 2024, a letter was sent out that made it official that Uisce Éireann is responsible for those DPIs in the future. As a result of that, we have gone back out and done more surveys with local authorities. We have turned up certain locations where we believe that DPIs were missed during the first survey and we are examining those.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Laffey put a figure on that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Laffey say another 300 or 400?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Yes, to be honest, some of them are DPIs that we do not believe should be maintained at the expense of the public purse. For instance, at one location there are two houses that were built on a housing estate that was never completed and that are connected to a septic tank. We do not believe that a national utility should be involved with two houses with a septic tank
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is nearly doubling the figure. How could that have been missed in the initial process? That seems like an extraordinary-----
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The initial process had a very tight brief around what we were looking for and it was a very tight ask from the local authorities that went out and did it. When the letter came out and we did the second survey, for the want of a better term I think there was a general sweep-up. We got a lot of stuff in that to be perfectly honest might be marginal, at best. That is why we are going through every one of them to see if they meet the criteria or not.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I know Mr. Laffey could not or would not put a figure on the number of households impacted but he did say some of these instances are maybe 20 or 25 houses in an estate, while others are smaller but in or around that. We could be looking at a population served by up to 10,000 people for all of those in the first tranche. That would probably double with the nuance that-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. You have said the timeframe to address all of these is about ten years, with the new tranche. That is unbelievable and shocking, to be honest. How does that impact the timeline in terms of-----
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Even with the best will in the world we are going to have to put a programme in place to deal with these. Every single one of them could be a new stand-alone wastewater treatment plant. We never confuse small with non-complex. They can be even more complex than big treatment plants. The first thing we will have to do is to survey every single one of them. We are going to have to work out exactly what we need to do. We have to resolve the legal issues because, ultimately, we cannot spend public money on something which is still in private ownership. Once we get those settled and sorted, we will start to roll out the programme to get them fixed.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Laffey cannot or will not put a figure on how much that is.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That piece of work is ongoing. How many of them, if any, are subject to compliance enforcement from the EPA?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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They are not reported to the EPA. Is Mr. Laffey seriously concerned about any of them in terms of substandard-----
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We did an initial survey. These are very rough figures but between 20% and 25% of those DPIs are actually maintained to a greater or lesser extent. In fact, in a number of situations when we went to meet residents who were looking after their own DPIs, they did not want us involved and did not want them taken into public ownership on the basis that as long as they were in private ownership they could decide who would connect to them and they could control development.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Laffey is saying 25% are maintained or well maintained, then there are 75% that are not maintained.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many of them has Uisce Éireann taken in charge?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
None, to date. That being said, when the letter came from the Department we gave an undertaking that we would provide the exact same services as were being provided to DPIs by local authority staff and local authorities prior to us being asked to take them over, in terms of operating and looking after them. If a local authority was de-sludging or taking a tanker-load of waste out of a particular septic tank once a week, then we are still doing that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Laffey said there had been ongoing engagements with the Department and the Minister for the previous two to three months in relation to this. Obviously, with the numbers that have been mentioned around dealing with those legacy cases and the announcement that we will be going down a similar model in terms of development by developers, there is an additional workload for Uisce Éireann. Has there been a commitment to increase budgets? What are the additional needs, both in terms of finances and in terms of staff complement, to address both the legacy and the new proposals?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We are not going back down the same road again. We will be involved all the way through. We have the resources internally. By the end of February we will have agreed with the EPA standards, specifications, assessment of water bodies - all of that will be there. We will be working hand-in-glove with the developers to make sure these things are built to the correct standards and they will be taken in charge straight away.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There will be no additional needs in terms of staff complement.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Moving on to the whole area of the bonuses or performance-related awards, as they were described. Looking over 2022, there was a figure of €9.17 million for bonuses. In 2023 it was €10.6 million, which related to 1,631 staff. Then in 2024 it was a figure of €13.08 million. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is staff numbers. That relates to 2,244 staff. There were different percentages given. I think 95% of staff are eligible-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is 93% that are eligible. Give us numbers and break that down. How many people who were eligible for the bonus did not actually get a bonus?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If we are doing the maths-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If we are doing the maths, it is probably fewer than 50 people who did not receive a bonus. That says a lot, given there are challenges and difficulties. There were EPA enforcement and compliance issues which I will touch on, and the EPA's annual report was pretty damning. That level of bonuses having been awarded is a concern. The witnesses might be able to furnish us with the exact detail of that. They said there were different scales. They might provide us with what the scheme actually looked like.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
It is important to remember that staff get individual targets at the start of the year which they have to comply with. They get a rating based on that but then the company performance is a multiplier. If the company has not performed well, the bonus is reduced. They do not get a fixed amount. We will come back to the committee with the details on that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. You might just send us the specific note on that. What was the highest bonus awarded? We were told the lowest. What was the highest?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What pay scale was that individual on? Would it have been one of the 25% who are earning over €100,000?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is a significant bonus for anyone. I do not expect the witnesses to have all the information here. Can they give us a breakdown of those bonuses and the pay scale in bands of €20,000? What was the highest in a certain wage band? It would be very interesting to see that. That figure of over €30,000 for a bonus is extraordinary.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In my view, the pay scale is fairly considerable. Anyone earning over €100,000 is-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----and 25% of the organisation-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Uisce Éireann might furnish us with those details.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is, the bonuses paid, the pay scale they are related to and the highest bonus given in each of those pay scales.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking at the risks. Ms O'Dwyer said earlier that Uisce Éireann is always trying to prevent risks. I am interested in the DPI and that this model had been used before, where small builders actually built the infrastructure. How much will this cost Uisce Éireann in the long run? Will that infrastructure be up to the specifications that are required by Uisce Éireann? Who pays the small companies? Will that increase the price of a house for a young buyer? Will they be paying that additional cost at the start when they buy a house?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
The model in the past is as follows. The developer looked for planning permission. They got planning permission. They also got planning permission for an on-site wastewater treatment plant. They were licensed under section 4 of the pollution Act by the local authority. The mechanism was that a company would be set up. Every member of the estate would be a member of that company and they would contribute to the ongoing maintenance and upkeep of the wastewater treatment plant. As we have seen, a lot of companies went bust. People never contributed and the place fell apart.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What will be the difference with the new model?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will they charge it to the person buying the house?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is going to increase the price for people buying houses.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will that not increase the price of a new house?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The person building the house will pay for this rather than Uisce Éireann.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So it will be the person buying the new house who is going to-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So it is a win-win for Uisce Éireann because it will actually be the person buying the house who will be out additional money for having this because Uisce Éireann will buy it from the developer at the end of the process. The developer is going to make money from Uisce Éireann------
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who are you going to buy it from?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Handed across for free.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who does not pay connection charges?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but the homeowner is going to have to pay for this system to be put in.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Uisce Éireann is not providing the water. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that €5,000 per house?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is probably going to be additionality because the developer will have to do more work.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Uisce Éireann used to put in the pipes for developers, did it not?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will this infrastructure that the builder is going to put in place be up to Uisce Éireann's specifications?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
Yes, as part of the connection process we will agree the design, standards and specifications. There will be guidance. We will oversee the construction of it technically to make sure it is up to standard in order that when it comes across to us, it will not become a burden on the public purse. As soon as it is completed to our standards, we will take it in charge.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is very good for the developer. As far as I can see, the developer is on to a win-win. He will charge the extra to the person who is buying the house.
Connection fees for stand-alone houses are astronomical. The prices being charged are horrendous for young people building houses. I have heard quotes of up to €20,000 to get a connection with Uisce Éireann.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but what about-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about where there is no existing network. What is the cost in those circumstances?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
Again, we are endeavouring to promote compact sustainable development and the connection charging policy is built around making the most of existing assets. If you build a house that is a long way from a network and you are looking for it to be serviced, there is an additional cost.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Young people cannot get houses. They cannot build houses. Then they are asked to pay these astronomical fees by Uisce Éireann.
I want to talk about the hospitality charges. Somebody might have raised this when I was out. There is a figure of €194,000 for staff to entertain. To what did that relate? The amount involved was nearly €200,000.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Uisce Éireann pays for Christmas parties for its staff.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
I had not finished. Uisce Éireann contributes to the social club, and individual employees also contribute to attending them. They are very important. Uisce Éireann is a national utility, and we will be bringing 5,000 staff together. Social occasions are important. They build relationships. They build working relationships. They also build-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. McCarthy think the taxpayer would be happy?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They would be delighted to see everybody going out to party.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Sorry, it is a very good investment in staff. We recently had company days all around the country where we brought new staff together into a room and explained what is happening not in their area but in other areas. We build community and culture in the organisation. I actually think it is money very well spent. It works out at approximately €80 per employee so it is not a big amount of money.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the housing activation office mentioned in the opening statement, has Uisce Éireann found that it has been a productive engagement so far? Does it feel that efficiencies are being achieved through the work the office is undertaking?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
It is in its early stages. I am going to the official opening of it this afternoon with the Minister, Deputy Browne. We have seconded somebody in there for approximately three months. It is setting up. It is starting to understand what the challenges are in delivering housing. We have done a lot of preparatory work involved. We have identified approximately 70 settlements where we believe we have capacity or where we can invest additional money. We are working with the other utilities to make sure that if we invest in an area then the ESB and rail and road have the same capacity, so we are not all working in different areas and delivering different capacities.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Gleeson. There is a frustration in terms of Uisce Éireann co-ordinating with local authorities. For example, if a road is to be resurfaced the local authority notifies Uisce Éireann it is about to happen but I have very often seen roads resurfaced where there is a water pipe that has been damaged or has broken several times and clearly needs rehabilitation. However, this is not done before the road is resurfaced. Two months after a road is resurfaced, it is dug up to fix a water main or a burst pipe. Have we improved in this area? There is nothing more frustrating for the general public than seeing a lack of co-ordination between utility companies and local authorities. I would like the take of the witnesses on this.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
We are improving on that. We are setting up a team in the asset management function. As I said earlier we generally decide our rehabilitation of water mains at short notice because it is based on breakages and we have such a large network and our funds are limited. We are going to work with local authorities because, ultimately, if we identify a pipe that needs replacing or it comes to light that a pipe can be replaced at a lesser cost to both bodies and the taxpayer we can do that. What we are doing now is putting all of our projects on a GIS layer and sharing them with the local authorities throughout the country.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Uisce Éireann sees tangible improvements in this area.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that a lot of the funding Uisce Éireann has received needs to be directed towards housing delivery and that this is a top priority. Rehabilitating water mains that constantly burst needs to be a priority as well. Co-ordinating with the local authorities is critically important. If a road has been resurfaced and then Uisce Éireann has to dig it up, there are obligations on it to resurface that road to a high standard. It really is doubling the work. Mr. Laffey sees tangible improvements in this area.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I just want to say that many issues have been raised, but the monumental task that Uisce Éireann faces as an organisation has to be acknowledged. When we look at water services there was significant underinvestment for many decades in this country and Uisce Éireann has a monumental task before it. It is appreciated and acknowledged. There are issues we have to quiz at the committee but the scale of the challenge before Uisce Éireann needs to be noted also. I thank the witnesses for their work.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I apologise. I had to attend another meeting. I was also speaking in the Chamber. Some of my questions may have been covered. What is the initial reaction of the witnesses to the announcement two days ago on developers building small plants in small areas which Uisce Éireann cannot necessarily get to? The response can be on a high level and the witnesses do not need to go through it again.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
We have been looking for a solution for small towns and villages and those isolated areas for a long time, and the one the Minister has led with is welcome. With Uisce Éireann, the EPA and the Department working together the solution looks like it should be workable. Perhaps Mr. Laffey will elaborate a bit.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will use as examples the places I know best. The large towns in north Kildare, such as Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth, are okay but the likes of Prosperous and maybe Rathcoffey might have a lack of wastewater or water facilities.
Can any developer-led solution be put in place in those sorts of places or are they fully reliant on Uisce Éireann? Do the witnesses feel that this announcement might be able to help? Is it a separate issue?
Mr. Sean Laffey:
There are probably three mechanisms we are going to use, which are complementary. We are looking at what we call free treatment. If we have a project to upgrade a wastewater treatment plant in the pipeline, pardon the pun, we will allow developers to treat their own waste to a certain standard on site and we will accept it. When the plant is upgraded, we will ask them to decommission their on-site wastewater treatment systems.
The second mechanism has come out recently. In cases under 100 PE, we can work with developers for stand-alone solutions that we would take in charge and operate at public expense.
We are considering a third mechanism. It is a piece of work that will take a while. We are considering modular solutions that can be fabricated off-site, in a factory-style setting, and we can produce units up to 1,000 PE that we can simply install next to an existing public wastewater treatment plant.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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For those small ones, would developers be designing them or would they be specified by Uisce Éireann?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Developers will not be able to seek their own designer.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a specific budget in place? Has Uisce Éireann an allocation to deal with that? Will it have to put a new team in place or is there a pre-existing team?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In general when Uisce Éireann is dealing with tenders, is there what I do not want to describe as a "race to the bottom" on price? It is something I see when I deal with pricing at local authority level when dealing with tenders. Is Uisce Éireann instructed to go with the lowest price? How does it deal with balancing the lowest price, the medium price and delivery?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
When we go to the market for tender, we take the most economically advantageous approach. We would have a contract strategy in place that allows us to have large, medium and small contractors in our system. We have a lot of frameworks there that are designed to allow us to deliver at scale. We are now in our regulatory control 4 process for the next five years, out to 2029. That is where we would have identified contracting solutions. There are a number of large frameworks there. There are a number of other frameworks in our capital space, capital programme and ancillary works. Depending on the nature of the work we are doing for large capital projects, we will still go out to the market. It is important to us that the technical capability is there. Depending on the work being done, we will determine what percentage is associated with those requirements and what piece is associated with cost.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is Uisce Éireann clear about what it requires for different jobs from a planning perspective? Does the planning system define what it needs specifically? Are there works it can do without requiring planning? If it exists, should the list of works be extended?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it potentially too restrictive?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
There are planning exemptions there at the moment so we are able to proceed with a lot of work under the exemptions that exist. A key request of ours, which has now been addressed through the accelerated infrastructure task force piece, is the widening of the planning exemptions that are there. That would allow us to do more work without having to acquire those consents.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is exactly right. It would be quicker. May I ask one more question? I am relating the situation to scenarios I have experience of. There is an issue that comes up quite a lot in Leixlip. I alluded to the bursts we have had and I only use this example because it is my hometown and first port of call. Burst pipes always happen at 7 p.m. on a Friday or Saturday, to make things worse. I am sometimes on site. If someone tells me, I go out and see the pipes bursting. You wait for the lads to come and dig and there is a process. Typically, water is not restored until the next morning. Are we happy that we are so reliant on third-party workers for that? I am fearful at 7 p.m. because how do we know those lads have not gone home? By definition, they should have. We need crews available to dig out through the night. As importantly, I always found when I was a councillor, and it is still the case now I am a TD, that it was me who was putting the information into the local Facebook group. At 11 p.m., I am writing posts to tell people where we are. It is instant communication. I presume all the other local representatives are in the same situation. It is the same event, but critical work needs to be done. Are we happy that we have people to do it? How can we improve our communication and get the communication out there? Ultimately, that is the thing that drives people mad. Sometimes we have a gap. We find a similar gap in local authorities. Uisce Éireann knows that running water is the thing, especially for those with children, vulnerable people and the elderly. People like me can call over to someone else who has water but vulnerable people cannot do so.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They would do the dig-out.
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We also have support from contractors, where needed. In many areas, our own teams might do smaller repairs and we would bring in contractors to do larger repairs. That may be the case. It varies across the country. The support network is there, whereby we bring in third-party contractors to support us with a repair.
With regard to the communication, that is a matter we are continuously trying to improve to get immediate updates back from the field. Part of our transformation programme is to roll out handheld units to all our water network operators so that on locating and investigating a burst, they can provide information from the field. That will go through automatically to our contact centre, which will then send text messages to all customers in the area, as well as notifications to TDs, to the effect that there is a burst in a particular location. We know we have to improve that communication trail from the field and it is something we will be working to improve.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes you would drive to Lidl at 7 p.m., see people buying water and wonder what is going on. Sometimes it can be like that, as a public representative.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for the time they have given to this committee. It is appreciated.
Why is Irish Water not subjected to parliamentary questions via the line Minister?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Mr. Munnelly can enlighten us.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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To give examples, and perhaps Mr. Munnelly is not aware of this, the situation is different for the HSE and the National Transport Authority, NTA. If you pose a parliamentary question to the line Minister of those organisations, they are obligated to respond in ten days. That is a useful way for TDs to get simple answers. When I was a councillor on Dublin City Council, we had a system whereby you questioned the manager. None of those replies would go to yourselves. They were all directed to some customer service line. As a matter of policy, would the witnesses have any objection to being subjected-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do not think that is the case. Unless I am mistaken, and it only happened the other day, the Ceann Comhairle can rule out parliamentary questions to Irish Water via the line Minister. Perhaps Mr. Munnelly can help.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is very different.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We have the facility to pose parliamentary questions. Returning to my original question, would the witnesses have any objection in principle to a policy whereby Irish Water is subjected to parliamentary questions? I am talking to Irish Water first before I go back to the Department official.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps it is not something that has previously come to Mr. Gleeson's desk. I genuinely mean this to be helpful. Ms Attridge said earlier that Irish Water has changed its public representative system and she hopes public representatives are feeling the change. I do not think they are. I do not know if Irish Water has asked public representatives. My dealings with Irish Water, first as a councillor and now as a TD, have proved challenging. I am not here to lambast its representatives about it, but I do not think Irish Water's systems function the way we, as public representatives, operate, either at a council level or a TD level.
Those of us who can work hard find the official we might have a relationship with in the local authority who is talking to Irish Water, who can very often solve the problem for us, or we might know someone in Irish Water. It's all very higgledy-piggledy, whereas if Uisce Éireann were subject to parliamentary questions, Members throughout the Dáil would be able to just simply submit that question, which would be referred from the line Minister, and it would have to reply in ten days, in the same way the HSE and NTA do. It would assist quite a lot.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Our preference would be to improve the existing local representative support desk, LRSD, system and to get better responses out to the Deputy on that. Sometimes, the system does not work but, sometimes, you do not like the answer. There is a difference in how we do it. We will try to improve the LRSD system. I think that would be far more effective. As I said, there are 13,000 queries every year on that system, so some of it has got to be working. If we go through the parliamentary question system, do I get to shut off the LRSD system because-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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No. Unfortunately, Uisce Éireann would keep both open, from my experience of those systems. I do not know what it is. It is probably due to the legal requirement on the Minister, but you get a better reply there. That is just the reality to things. I wanted to ask those questions and I have got the answers. I understand Mr. Munnelly's position that as a matter of legislation Uisce Éireann is not required. That is a legal change that would have to be made.
To go back to my earlier questions about house connections - it is 41,000 but I hear we cannot pin it down - what is the forecast or the equivalent figure for 2025? Does Uisce Éireann have one yet or is it too early to indicate something like that?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms O'Dwyer have an equivalent figure to the 41,000 for 2025 I was given earlier?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. Generally, does Uisce Éireann accept the contention from developers that Irish Water connection delays are a contributory factor to delays in housing? Is that something Irish Water accepts as a body?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
I can appreciate that in certain parts of the country there are challenges in connecting. As I said, the model that we have tried to pursue is having an open door. In the context of our connections team, I know that a lot of their phone numbers are available to developers and that we are endeavouring-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Uisce Éireann accept it or not? It is just a yes-no answer. Does it accept the complaints-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am asking this question straight. The narrative is that Irish Water is causing delays in the connection of water to houses, which is delaying the construction of houses. That is what the development class is saying. Is that something Mr. Gleeson accepts a little bit or a small bit?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
There are issues with delays. There are loads of areas where you can have delays, but if we are talking specifically, if the developer has his connection agreement, has it signed off, and the estate is ready to be connected, I do not believe there are huge delays in that process. There are issues where the developer has come to us late with the connection and we are trying to play catch-up, but I do not think it is a fundamental issue. I would focus on where we have infrastructure deficits and are saying no, we cannot deliver because we do not have the infrastructure. That is where we want to focus.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Nobody could object to that point. I was just-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Will the more money that we as taxpayers and the Government have given Uisce Éireann improve response times? Is that what it has told the Government? If it gives more money, Uisce Éireann will improve the response times.
Mr. Chris McCarthy:
I might take that. It is not specifically that money, but within our operating budget we have had to increase our resources. In terms of our response times around pre-connection inquiries and connection offers, it has been impacted by the refunds process that was imposed upon them as well, where we have had €220 million refunded at this point. It was the same team it was touching on and that did have an impact on our performance in terms of pre-connection inquiries and new connection offers. Still, as Ms O'Dwyer said, we were delivering at that level. Yes, we are going to work on it. We have increased the team. It is within our operating budget and we plan on-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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To get it to a 16-week target. Is that what the target is?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I think developers want 12 weeks, but that is not possible. Is that what Mr. McCarthy is saying?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Dwyer said 70% are at 16 weeks.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is a regulated measure.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few concluding questions. Do we have an estimated cost for the greater Dublin drainage project?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
As we were coming into summer last year, we did a lot of work on our estimate. It was always north of €1 billion, but we had a range up to €1.5 billion at that point. We were delighted, obviously, to get planning in the summer. That came with a number of new conditions, so the team are working through those at the moment in terms of what that means for the project estimate. As Mr. Gleeson said, we were judicially reviewed subsequent to that. We are waiting to understand the implications of that. We are pulling together a revised estimate looking at a number of contingencies. There are a lot of moving parts at the minute. We are hopeful that we are going to get a positive outcome out of the court case in December, or possibly in the new year. We will then make a submission to the Government to proceed with our procurement.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms O'Dwyer foresee the estimated costs increasing considerably?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It will have an impact. Can a figure be put on it at this stage, or an estimate?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On the Dublin-midlands water supply project, estimated figures of between €4.6 billion to €5.9 billion were given. During the week, detail was given of a compensation scheme for the fact that approximately 500 landowners are potentially impacted. A figure was given for compensation of up to €100,000 for some landowners. Is Ms O'Dwyer at liberty to get into detail?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
I think that was a number that was reported in the media, but it is not a number that we actually provided. There are 500 landowners along a route of 172 km. We have to acquire 50 ha in permanent land-take for the project as well. We had negotiations with the IFA and the ICMSA and we agreed a voluntary wayleave package for the landowners along the route. Those offers went out to them in July. They are having a very successful rate in terms of those applications being accepted at the minute.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms O'Dwyer at liberty to give details?
Ms Maria O'Dwyer:
All the packages vary, depending on what infrastructure is going to be on any particular site or whether there will be valves. It also varies depending on how the landowner has accepted for payment to be made. There are crop disturbance mechanisms there as well. The budget overall is 2% to 3% of the overall project estimate.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is 2% to 3% of the overall. That is fine.
On complaints, a number of members have touched on complaints from members of the public and from public representatives, whether they are TDs or Senators. Unfortunately, some of that frustration is borne out in the media, where members of the public have to go to the media to highlight a failure, a service that is not being provided or poor service. Does Uisce Éireann engage in media monitoring?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is €100,000 for media monitoring.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it an outside service that provides that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What is its purpose or how does that feed into the operation?
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
When I joined the organisation, I used to get up in the morning and read the papers to figure out what my day was going to be like because the media sentiment was quite negative. Today, I think we are in a better place, but we still need to see what people are saying about us. It is a mechanism to understand. Sometimes, these complaints come through without getting the recognition they deserve, so it is important that we monitor the media to see what the general public is saying about us. We react to those issues. I think it is an important service.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a figure of nearly €104,000 for last year, which is extraordinarily high for a service, if Uisce Éireann was taking it on board. The eyes and ears of a lot of communities are the public representatives. We are the first point of contact. If those issues are not being acted upon, out of frustration it ends up in the media. Do you not think----
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Yes, but that would not be the only stuff the media are writing about us. I think there would be pundits writing about the water supply project, the GDD project or judicial reviews. Where we get mentioned, it is important that that is flagged to us so we understand what is going on. As regards dealing with the local reps and so on and answering those questions, we understand we have failings. We are trying to improve the LRSD line and get better responses out on that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect you to have the figures for the cost of media monitoring, but you might provide the committee with those costs for previous years also.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the EPA, which I made reference to earlier, its annual report was pretty damning. It said that raw sewage discharges into the environment have halved from the previous year up to this year, but it was, in my view, pretty damning. You might give us the number of cases taken by the EPA last year against Irish Water.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. The figure I have here is that Uisce Éireann has been prosecuted by the EPA on 28 occasions. That was for failing to treat wastewater properly. I would imagine there are a number of other areas of potential prosecutions, not just in relation to wastewater. You do not have any of those specifics or figures in relation to areas outside wastewater that-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do you have any of those figures?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You might get them for us on an annual basis, just to see. Being prosecuted 28 times for wastewater is quite concerning. The EPA also stated that there were 1,080 short-duration or once-off incidents at wastewater treatment plants last year. A number of those were in my constituency of Wicklow. There was one really frustrating case at Corke Abbey, a pumping station that, unfortunately, I had been reporting over a three-day period at Christmas time before action was taken. The mechanisms within that pumping station failed. There was no alerting system activated or it failed, which is quite concerning.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
There are no excuses for that and, to be perfectly honest, we are very aware that our predictive and planned maintenance activities really need to be upped. We have started that process now, since we are finally bringing the staff into Uisce Éireann. We also need to make sure that our operational mechanisms, the reporting mechanisms, etc., are actually fully embedded in the operational staff, so-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. The EPA goes on to say that addressing such issues, which are quite serious in terms of the environmental impact, does not involve major investment.
Mr. Sean Laffey:
No, they do not. They just involve us putting mechanisms in place to make sure that all our assets and our asset base are properly recorded, their conditions are properly recorded and proper maintenance plans are put in place in order that we can actually get in there and fix things before they break or replace things before they wear out and cause pollution events.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The EPA says half of those failures are caused by poor operational management. Referring back to our previous conversation about the bonuses, 93% of staff are in receipt of bonuses, yet I see the Environmental Protection Agency highlighting poor management. The two do not really-----
Ms Margaret Attridge:
We are aware that a number of those incidents relate to operational practices. We are taking action there with regards to training all our wastewater treatment plant operators, rolling out standard operating procedures around the specific elements of plant, having standard procedures and equipment in place on each side for operational testing and having sludge removal programmes in place for all our sites. We are keeping our sites as healthy as possible. We are taking action there as soon as possible to reduce the number of those incidents.
Mr. Niall Gleeson:
Also, when we had the drinking water incidents back in 2021, we brought in an oversight system. We now have a national operations centre on Talbot Street that looks at the drinking water plants. We are bringing the wastewater treatment plants into that system. We are currently looking at about a thousand plants around the country, but we will roll that out to plants, to pumping stations, to everything. Right now we do not have great visibility of a lot of these. We do not have the telemetry. While the EPA says it is easy to fix, I am not sure. We need to get telemetry. Every single pump and every single station needs to be reporting back into that national control centre so we have the oversight in order that when there are equipment failures or where the operator maybe has not done something, we will be alerted straight away back in the control centre and be able to react.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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My final question is about a parochial issue. It relates to two sewage treatment plants in Wicklow, one being the Murrough in Wicklow town and the other being in Greystones. I have, unfortunately, had to go down the route of referring them to the EPA because of serious ongoing issues in terms of severe levels of really bad odours, above and beyond what would be expected. The EPA has carried out site investigations. Uisce Éireann has told me that both plants are on a list, there are different pieces of work going on and they need to be upgraded in terms of the odour abatement systems. I have been told it will be potentially next year before this happens. I do not know whether you would have any specific information in relation to those. They have been going on now for a number of years in terms of the negative experience, not just in Greystones, a highly residential area, but also in the Murrough, which is an area of high public amenity and a special area of conservation. Is there any clarity or any assurance that can be given to people in those areas that we are not going to experience the same levels of serious failures within those two plants and that the upgrades will actually take place?
Ms Margaret Attridge:
I will take that. On the Murrough pumping station, since quarter 1 of 2025, we have been surveying that just to track the odour levels at the treatment plant. The plant is operating within the original design capacity. However, there are upgrade works that can be done to improve it. As regards those upgrade works, following the survey, we have identified the capability of the pumping station to deal with it. Those upgrade works will commence in quarter 1 of 2026 for the Murrough. For Greystones, what was needed there was just some upgrade works, that is, the capacity is okay but it just needed some maintenance works carried out. Some of that work has been progressed and we have seen a notable reduction in odours for quarter 2 and quarter 3 in 2025. We will continue to monitor it. We are also working back through the network. Our source control team is looking at what is discharging into the network that is contributing to the odours.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for that. I think that concludes our engagement with the witnesses this morning. I do not think members have any other questions.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Could I just add one point of clarification? In my opening comments I referred to drawings of €644 million from the central fund loan facility. There was actually repayment of €460 million. The net borrowing in the year was €184 million, and that effectively exhausts the full borrowing capacity there. That is just for the record.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is a clarification. Okay. That concludes our engagement today with Uisce Éireann. I thank the chief executive officer and his officials for attending our hearing. I also thank the officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the C and AG for their attendance once again. Is it agreed that the clerk seek any follow-up information and carry out agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.
The committee is now adjourned until Thursday, 13 November 2025, at 9.30 a.m., when we will engage with the Department of Transport. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.