John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are all very welcome to today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

The agenda for today is No. 1, accounts and statements, No. 2, correspondence, and No. 3, upcoming meetings. We will then suspend and begin the engagement with officials from Uisce Éireann at 10.30 a.m. Before we go into the next item, I congratulate a former member of this committee, Uachtarán-elect, Catherine Connolly, who did tremendously in the election. I commend her. She was a diligent, productive member of the public accounts committee, both in this term and in previous terms. I am sure all members would agree that she did this committee proud and she will do the State and country proud when she is inaugurated next Tuesday. That is just to note that. I do not know whether any members want to speak.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I, too, congratulate President-elect Catherine Connolly. It is probably the first time in the history of the State that a member of the Committee of Public Accounts has become President of Ireland, so it can be said that there is hope for us all. I am a new member of this committee but all of us who are new and those who sat on the previous committee can recognise and observe the experience and talent that she brought to this committee. She will be a loss to this committee, but this committee's loss is Ireland's gain. We wish Catherine Connolly well as President of Ireland and I look forward to her inauguration.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I also want to congratulate Catherine. It is fitting that the seat beside me is empty, because that is the one in which she always preferred to sit. I am delighted for Catherine. She proved herself to be a brilliant candidate in an election that she won convincingly. We all recognise that. She will make a great Uachtarán na hÉireann for us all, as she said. I also want to speak on my personal engagement with her here. She was very knowledgeable as she went about her business dealing with people. Anything she said was articulate, intelligent, not aggressive and she did not have to push too hard, but at the same time, she was able to get her point across and was inquisitive. I learned much from watching her do her business. I look forward to watching her with her elevated status. Congratulations to Catherine. I look forward to meeting her on Tuesday.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would also like to congratulate Catherine on her astounding victory. She did fantastically. I commend her on her first words of wisdom, that she would bring Irish to Áras an Uachtaráin and that would be the working language as Uachtarán. I would also like to present an idea here, that on the 100th anniversary of the Committee of Public Accounts, we could invite Catherine as she was a former member.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would also like to extend my congratulations to Catherine. I did not get to know her that well because I was in the Seanad, but I followed her campaign, which was extraordinary and a huge success. I am really excited to go to her inauguration. It will be the first inauguration I have ever been to. I wish her well. She will definitely be a loss to our committee.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I echo the words of the other members and note my own congratulations to President-elect Connolly. As the others have said, her experience here was very obvious from the word go. I am sorry I did not get to share the committee a bit more with her to learn from her experience, but so be it. She will be a loss to the Committee of Public Accounts, but obviously she is now elevated to being the first citizen of the nation. It is a proud moment for her and I wish her all the best in that role.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As the Vice Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, I want to congratulate Catherine on her amazing victory. I know that the diligence that she brought to this committee will be something that she brings to the Áras. The thing that always impressed me the most about Catherine was that it was very obvious that she had consumed all of the briefing material and more in advance of hearings here. I know when we were selecting a Vice Chair for the committee, it could as easily have been Catherine as me. If that is the height of my achievement, I will be happy to be included in her company.

Whoever is looking after the finances in Áras an Uachtaráin better have a keen eye because, I have no doubt that President-elect will be keeping an eye on them.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I also wish to offer my congratulations to Catherine. As a new member of this committee, I was very privileged to sit beside her. As my colleagues have said, she came in here and put us all to shame with her scribbles and notes on every single page. She knew her brief inside out. I have every confidence that she will take that diligence and intensity into her new role. I wish her very well, and I look forward to welcoming her back.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks, Deputy Byrne. I agree with the views of all members. It is notable that Catherine's chair has been left vacant. No one has the courage to take it just yet. She will be a loss to the committee and to the Oireachtas in general. It will be Ireland's gain to have her as its first citizen. I congratulate her. I think an invitation has been sent or will be sent to her to attend the event relating to the 100th anniversary of the PAC. It would be good to see her there.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Áras might extend an invitation to the committee in return.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely, I thought you were going to say that you hoped our remit will be extended to take on the-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Transparency is important.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will move on to No. 5. The minutes of the meeting of 23 October 2025 have been agreed and will be published on the committee's website. At that meeting, officials from the Department of justice asked to make a clarification in respect of one of their responses in the committee to a question from Deputy Ardagh regarding the maximum number of prisoners that the State had in custody. The official stated that the highest number, some 5,699, was recorded on the day prior to the meeting, which would have meant that prison system was at 110% of capacity. The Department wishes to correct the record and has stated that the correct figure was 5,599, meaning that the system was operating at 120% of capacity.

Ten sets of accounts and financial statements laid before the committee between 20 October and 31 October 2025 and are due to be considered today. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Go raibh maith agat. No. 1 is the accounts of the National Lottery Fund for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 2 is the Regulator of the National Lottery financial statements for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 3 is the account of the State property miscellaneous deposits account for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion.

No. 4 is the financial statements of St. James's Hospital for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. The turnover figure there is incorrect. I will seek a correction in that regard for the committee. Apart from issuing a clear audit opinion, I drew attention to three matters. First, a material level of procurement non-compliance, which continues from year to year. Second, claims to the value of €396,000 were rejected by private insurers on the basis that the hospital had not finalised the claims within the required timeframe. Third, services to the value of €1.44 million were purchased from an unlimited company owned by employees of St. James' Hospital in circumstances where no formal contract was in place and for which most services were not subject to an open, competitive process. In addition, we identified that employees had not declared their interests in the company in annual declarations of interest. Both of the items there were replicated previously. I drew attention to similar issues with Children's Health Ireland, CHI, and in the HSE.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The C and AG provided some context when he mentioned how a similar issue had arisen in the context of CHI. I want to be clear about what he identified. He said that the hospital paid €1.44 million to a company that was owned by employees of the hospital and there was no public procurement process in relation to the contract.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

A small part, maybe €40,000, was procured but the bulk of it was not.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Those moneys would have come from the revenue of the hospital, which is taxpayer money, by and large. Not only that, but there are obligations on employees to submit declarations of interest. Where do those declarations go?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They are submitted to hospital management and the board.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does the board have an obligation to submit employees' declarations of interest to other outside parties?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No, it rests with the hospital. It is for the board to manage any declarations of interest that are made and to be aware of them.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is it the case that the board, which is responsible for evaluating various contracts that come before it, was not to know that €1.44 million was being given to a company that was owned by employees because it did not necessarily know that declarations were made?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Has this been rectified? What response was provided when Mr. McCarthy identified this problem?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They disclosed the facts. I would expect to see maybe a doubling down on declarations of interests and more action being taken to ensure that such declarations are made. There is not an obligation, necessarily, on somebody who does not have interests to declare to make a declaration. It would be good practice to issue a nil-interests declaration. If someone has an interest, however, there is an obligation to disclose it.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This is something that the committee will have to come back to. We should bring representatives of St James' Hospital before the committee to answer on a fairly huge chunk of money that has been handed over to a company owned by employees. That is quite startling and it is in line, as the C and AG said, with issues that have arisen in CHI. Those involved need to be answerable and accountable for what happened.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. Do we know the nature of the services involved?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not know offhand the nature of the services, but they were obviously medical in nature. I do not think they were to do with treatment; they were diagnostic in nature.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that, in the first instance, we write to the board of St. James's Hospital in order to get a full briefing on this matter because it is very serious. A significant amount of money was spent without the proper processes being undergone. I agree that this is a matter to which the committee will return. We will wait for a response to our correspondence and make a decision at that stage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Thanks, Chair. I will come back before the end of the meeting with the correct turnover figure.

No. 5 is the financial statements of the Marine Institute for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 6 is the financial statements of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 7 is the financial statements of the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 8 is the financial statements of the National Pediatric Hospital Development Board for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. In that case there was a qualified opinion. The accounts, in my view, give a true and fair view, except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements only as they become payable, but that is a standard approach for many health bodies. No. 9 is the financial statements of the Royal Irish Academy for 2024, which received a clear audit opinion. No. 10 is the financial statements of the Technological University Dublin for the year of account 1 September 2023 to 31 of August 2024.

The financial statements received a clear audit opinion but I drew attention to two matters. The university incurred a deficit of €8.2 million for the year ended 31 August 2024, following a deficit in the prior period of account of €8.4 million. Note 29 explains how the governing body is satisfied to present the financial statements on a going concern basis. I also drew attention to the fact that the draft 2024 financial statements were submitted for audit only in May 2025, which was almost six months after the target deadline of November 2024. This was due to ongoing capacity issues. In addition, following the audit, significant adjustments were required to the results stated for the year of account. Normally the audit would be expected to confirm the financial statements that would be presented. It is a matter of concern it was not in a position to present the draft on time and for the draft to be correct.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to Technological University Dublin, the final operating results has been adjusted from the initial draft submitted in May 2025 by approximately €3.85 million and this relates to certain payroll matters. I am trying to reconcile in my mind how payroll matters might amount to such a large sum. It would seem like a large sum. The second line looks like a routine matter. Will Mr. McCarty tell us the nature of what this is?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There were three matters that required adjustment. First, there was an accrual. A requirement for back pay which totalled €0.47 million had to be recognised. There was also a provision for funding under the Building Momentum pay agreement. The agreement allocated 1% of basic pay to sectors to deal with outstanding complaints, and it was appropriate for it to recognise an accrual in respect of this to the total €1.3 million. The final element was a provision for hourly paid part-time assistant lecturers. There was an accrual of €2.1 million where there was an agreement to compensate staff in respect of the terms of their contracts. This also needed to be recognised.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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They were payroll costs as opposed to errors.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They were payroll costs that needed to be recognised in the period of account.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The financial statements were submitted six months behind schedule and then, following the audit, significant adjustments were required. This is quite concerning in my view. That they did not meet the timeline and then significant changes were needed points to a litany of failures. Will Mr. McCarthy go into some of the amendments that were required to the result?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They are the items I just mentioned for the Deputy. It is significant. A board is entitled to know at all times, and should be able to know at all times, what the financial position is, how much has been spent and what the trading position is for the year. Some of these matters were identified as needing to be recognised in 2023 and 2024. They will not necessarily be recurring items. It is already in a significant financial deficit position. To have deficits of €8 million two years in a row is quite significant. It is engaging with the Higher Education Authority in relation to its financial management. I would expect that we will not be seeing a repetition of these matters and that the performance in relation to the 2024-25 period of account will be significantly better.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. The listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

We will now consider B items of correspondence, which have been received from Accounting Officers and Government bodies. No. R0322 is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Health, dated 20 October 2025, providing information requested by the committee on the national maternity hospital. This had been flagged by Deputy Farrelly. I propose that we defer this item until next week's meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R0324 is correspondence from the Arts Council, NCI national development plan programme and climate action unit, Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, informing the committee on the delay in the laying of the Arts Council’s 2024 annual report. It was agreed to note and publish this item.

I will now move to the committee's work programme. Next week, on Thursday 13 November, the committee will meet with the Department of Transport.

Are there any other items members wish to raise at this point under any other business?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When would be the appropriate time to raise this matter? I read an article this morning on the underpayment of tax by civil servants in higher positions and Ministers. How can we bring this issue before the Committee of Public Accounts? Which Department would be responsible?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is an item we have discussed previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I did a chapter on this matter. The actual payments and the collection are matters for the National Shared Services Office, NSSO. Each Minister would be paid from the Vote they are connected with, so it is difficult to find the Accounting Officer who is responsible for the actual payment. The process of payment is the responsibility of the NSSO. I imagine-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will it come before the committee at any stage?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Because there is chapter for the committee to examine, that would be the appropriate-----

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we ask for it to come before the committee at some stage?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, we can include that.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That would be brilliant. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does any other member want to raise any other item?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I would like to come back to the correct turnover figure for St. James's Hospital. It is €756 million rather than the figure given on the listing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.