Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 5 November 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment
Engagement with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission
2:00 am
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Good afternoon. You are all very welcome to our meeting. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. I wish to explain some limitations of parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence.
Witnesses within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.
Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to the identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. Again, it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I propose that the following minutes be approved: 21 October 2025 and 22 October 2025. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On the agenda is engagement with representatives from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC. We look forward to discussing the following topics with the CCPC: its annual reports of 2023 and 2024; its key priorities for 2025 and 2026; and related matters. The CCPC will be aware that the competitiveness and cost of doing business in Ireland are priority policy issues for the committee. We look forward to hearing any views that the witnesses may have on those matters. I propose that we publish the statement submissions provided by the witnesses on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
In relation to speaking arrangements, we will invite our witnesses to speak for approximately five to ten minutes. We will then allow members to ask questions and make comments for around seven minutes. If we have time, we may have a second round. Members may be called as they appear on the week one speaking rota which has been circulated. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I am delighted to welcome the representatives of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to today's meeting: Mr. Brian McHugh, chairperson ; Mr. Patrick Kenny, member of the commission; and Mr. Simon Barry, director of research, advocacy and international. They are all very welcome to the committee. I invite Mr. McHugh to make his opening statement.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I was appointed chair in September 2023, and this is my first appearance before the committee in that role. I am proud to be leading a great team that keeps Irish markets open and competitive and champions consumer rights. The CCPC is responsible for promoting competition and protecting the interests of consumers through enforcement, information and advocacy. We also have roles in product safety, financial education and digital and data regulation. Open and fair markets are the foundation for the success of the Irish economy, and it is the CCPC’s role to protect and promote them. They drive innovation in products and services, create jobs and ultimately improve consumer welfare. At a time of turmoil and uncertainty, competitive markets are more important now than ever in Ireland and in Europe.
I wish to set out some of our recent achievements. Under our merger powers in 2024, we blocked Dublin Airport Authority's, DAA, proposed takeover of the former Quick Park car park at Dublin Airport. Today, thanks to our decision, consumers parking at the airport have more choice, greater supply and lower prices. In competition law enforcement, we are proactively using our powers and have conducted six dawn raids in the past two years. Our cartels teams have a number of live investigations under way, including into gambling, home alarms, ports and healthcare technology sectors. On consumer law enforcement, last year, we conducted over 200 front-line inspections throughout the country. We have actively enforced new laws designed to protect consumers from misleading sales discounts. This resulted in prosecutions of Boots, Lifestyle Sports, DID Electrical and Rathwood. We also took a prosecution against Tesco for failing to provide full pricing information of clubcard products. The outcome in all these cases were guilty pleas and a donation of €1,000 to charity.
Given their increasing role in consumers’ buying decisions, we also produced guidelines to help influencers comply with the law. We have followed this up with warning letters and more recently we issued compliance notices to a number of influencers, with more are on the way. Working with consumer protection colleagues across Europe, we secured a range of commitments to improve transparency and clarity for millions of consumers. These businesses included WhatsApp and TikTok and investigations are ongoing in relation to Apple, Temu and Shein. In 2023 and 2024, our market surveillance teams removed or prevented over 360,000 unsafe products from reaching the Irish market. This ranges from dangerous toys to hurling helmets and travel adaptors.
We have run multiple campaigns to inform and empower consumers to pursue their own rights and financial well-being. Last year saw 1.8 million visits to our website and over 44,000 calls to our helpline. A significant number came on the back of our sponsored consumer rights TV show, "The Complaints Bureau", which reached 2.7 million views. In the CCPC, our research and advocacy reports explore critical consumer and market issues and propose solutions. Some recent examples include: our car history report, which highlights the need for State-led access to car history information for consumers; our consumer detriment report which found that Irish consumers experience issues that cost them almost €1 billion a year; our groceries analysis highlighted that Irish consumers have recently faced sharp increases in grocery prices, but the evidence does not suggest that competition in the supermarket sector is a significant problem; and our home buyers report highlighted the challenges faced by consumers when buying a home and made several recommendations to improve the process, such as legislating for providing consumers with presale information and easy access to relevant information held by public bodies.
In recent years, our powers have been strengthened and new enforcement regimes added within our competition and consumer protection remit, including under the Competition (Amendment) Act 2022, the Consumer Rights Act 2022 and general product safety regulations. In addition, we have been, or will be, allocated a significant number of new responsibilities in areas, including the Digital Services Act, the Data Act, the Data Governance Act, the Digital Markets Act, the European Consumer Centre, the AI Act, accessibility regulations and foreign subsidies regulations, to name just a few. Some of the new functions, such as the Digital Markets Act and European Consumer Centre, reinforce the powerful synergies we derive from our dual competition and consumer protection mandates. However, we need to sound a note of caution. Some of the functions expand the breadth of the CCPC’s remit into significant new areas, such as data and accessibility regulation. We enjoy a strong relationship with the Department and this period has seen a significant increase in our budget and staff numbers, which is very welcome. However, the pace and scope of this change is challenging. This pressure was acknowledged by the Department in its recent review of the CCPC. Additionally, our organisation has not scaled at senior leadership level to match our increased mandate. Addressing these risks will be critical to the success of the CCPC in future years. In order for us to fulfil all our new functions, we will need additional resources.
While we have built a stronger more impactful organisation in recent years, we have more work to do to deliver on our current strategy. We have no doubt that businesses and consumers suffer significant harm from ongoing breaches of competition and consumer law and finding, stopping and sanctioning such breaches will remain a critical priority for us in 2026. We strongly welcome the Government's commitment in the action plan on competitiveness and productivity to provide the CCPC with new powers to screen for bid rigging in public procurement and financial sanction powers for breaches of consumer law, as well as increasing the limit of the small claims court. These all send powerful messages to businesses and consumers that those who break the law should not be allowed to benefit at the expense of those who do not.
We look forward to future engagement with the committee when the legislation reaches the appropriate stage.
In order to better empower and inform consumers, we will deliver a major upgrade to the CCPC website in 2026. Our goal is to deliver a mobile friendly website, optimised for AI and search, and to grow our traffic to over 3 million visitors per annum.
We will publish the first in a series of reports on the state of competition in Ireland in the coming weeks. This will provide a picture of how competition is functioning across the economy. We will build on this work in 2026 by initiating more detailed research into areas that merit closer examination. We will continue to work closely with the Department of Finance and the Central Bank to support the successful implementation of the national financial literacy strategy.
In inviting the CCPC today, the committee has highlighted its interest in competitiveness and the cost of doing business. Both areas are central to our work. You cannot achieve competitiveness and efficiency without strong competition within well-functioning markets. Today, the Irish economy and consumers benefit hugely from decisions made in the past to open up markets such as airlines and telecoms. We have analysed and issued recommendations for numerous markets in recent years, including banking, insurance, waste and the legal sector. In some areas, we have seen these recommendations implemented. In other areas, our recommendations have not been acted on. It is 20 years since our landmark report on solicitors and barristers but the appetite for reform has been anaemic. The Irish legal system is slow and expensive, and is a drag on Ireland’s competitiveness. Irish home buyers are poorly served by a solicitors' monopoly. The CCPC welcomes the proposed legal reforms set out recently by the Government, which reflected many of the previous recommendations made by the CCPC, but Irish businesses and consumers need to see reform go further and faster, and the CCPC will remain a loud voice advocating for this.
We also take a strong interest in the broader competitiveness debate in Europe, where there are arguments for the European Commission to relax merger rules to allow new European champions to take on US or Chinese firms. In our view, Europe needs to strengthen the Single Market to allow firms to trade freely and expand consumer choice. We believe that consumers should decide who the champions are, not bureaucrats.
The committee will see from the evidence today that the work of the CCPC has delivered significant results for Irish businesses and consumers and our role in ensuring open and fair markets remains critical to the future prosperity of Irish households. Our proposed new powers will increase our impact. We look forward to further engagement with the committee on future legislation. We are happy to answer any questions.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McHugh. That was very interesting. We now go to our members. The first slot today is for Fine Gael. I call Senator Nelson Murray.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It sounds like the CCPC is extremely busy. I thank the witnesses for all the work they are doing. I have two parts to my questions, so the witnesses can decide who will take which part. Of the five cases that Mr. McHugh mentioned as breaching the pricing directive, what percentage of the products were in breach? I represent small businesses and worry that we are going after the low-hanging fruit at a time when they are really struggling. I am talking here about retailers. How is the CCPC finding the products that are in breach? Is it online and trawling through retailers' websites or is it calling into shops? I have only recently been learning about the directive in respect of pricing. My understanding is that it is difficult for retailers. We have the black Friday sales coming up at the end of November. Many such sales have started earlier because shops must wait 30 for days before they can reduce the price of an item.
I have been made aware of a situation whereby one company was brought to court when three items out of 6,000 stock-keeping units, SKUs, breached the pricing directive. The value of the items was €250 in total. The company received a letter inviting it to a voluntary meeting to which it could bring a solicitor. This company and others had the same experience and found it a very serious meeting. The cost of the process to them was approximately €70,000. We can appreciate that that is a very high cost for retailers at this time. I want to protect consumers and ensure we are paying the right price for stuff. Should we be considering mediation or trying to cut down on some of these costs for retailers?
I will raise the issue of insurance. Despite many reforms by the previous Government, no new underwriters have arrived in the liability market in over ten years. That is from the CCPC's 2020 review. There is very limited competition in many sectors, particularly leisure, meaning no downward pressure on premiums. Is the CCPC satisfied that all the recommendations from its previous review, which took place in 2019, were implemented? Has it formally assessed that? Should the CCPC carry out a further review of the public liability market after the introduction of some great reforms in recent years, such as the personal injury guidelines and the duty of care?
My business is in that market whereby I can only get insurance if I am a part of a group scheme. In fact, according to the Alliance for Insurance Reform, 15% to 20% of businesses report only one insurer willing to provide cover. Should we now be looking for a review of the liability and broker market, including barriers to entry?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I thank the Senator. On issues around the pricing directive, we would agree with some of the sentiments expressed by the Senator in the context of the approach we take when we go about enforcement. Issues around pricing, and particularly black Friday whereby the discounts offered were not real discounts, are things that consumers find very frustrating. It is something we identified as a strategic issue that we wanted to address. How we went about that was we worked with the Department to ensure the legislation was workable. We then went out and ran a campaign among businesses to highlight that we were going to be looking at this area and were going to take action. We engaged directly with businesses. We would have carried out inspections both in-store and online. We do both. We did that for a period before taking any enforcement action. We sent warnings. We offered guidance. We decide to take action - this is subject to decisions of a court - where we see significant harm and think it is appropriate, on balance, to prosecute and bring somebody to court.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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What percentage of the overall number of products stocked by a company are found to be in breach?
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Is it finding one out of thousands or is it-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Okay, I have it. The CCPC identifies hundreds of breaches but specifically zones in on perhaps two or three.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The other important point is that we look at multiple retailers and their websites. Some have pretty much 100% compliance. Where a big company that sells tens of thousands of products has its systems in place, it is 100% compliant. It is striking that some companies clearly can do it and comply with the law.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I really want to get to the insurance issue, but I mentioned black Friday. Am I right in understanding that the following situation applies? A product costs €100 and you decide to reduce it to €70. You then realise it is not selling and you want to reduce it to €50 but you have to wait for 30 days. You cannot show the consumer that the product was €100 and is now €50. You have to wait 30 days. Is that right?
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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That is why black Friday sales are starting earlier. By the time the St. Stephen's Day sales come-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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There can be, all right. I will turn to the issue of insurance then, please.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is something that we see as a big issue in Ireland. That is generally recognised. We did our study a number of years ago. We made a number of recommendations and are pleased to see that quite a few of them have been acted on. We have seen a lot of change in the insurance sector in terms of actions that have been taken.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Lots of change but no competition.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
There remain very real issues that businesses and consumers face. When you make significant reforms, as happened in the insurance sector, it takes a bit of time. In terms of, for example, personal injuries, we have seen changes to the Injuries Resolution Board that we looked for. We welcome that. We know that legal costs at the Injuries Resolution Board are approximately €600 compared to €25,000 in court. We need to see more cases moving from the courts system to the Injuries Resolution Board.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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We do, and the committee has regularly gone through that issue. After the reforms, I wonder whether it is time to look again to try to identify why we are not getting the competition into the market. As the CCPC report stated, it is ten years since a new insurer came in on the public liability side.
We are desperate for them. The CCPC worked on this in 2019. Now we have these reforms. Is it time to look at it again?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We would think that it is not time just yet. In terms of our priority, we want to see the journey that has started, in terms of the personal injuries moving out of the courts system and into the Injuries Resolution Board, continue and not go backwards. That is really important. Further work has to be done there to make sure that we continue that journey because that is where they belong. We have only recently seen the IRB getting mediation powers whereby issues can be resolved through mediation within three months. That is hugely beneficial for everyone involved. In Ireland, we spend €1 billion every year on personal injuries through claims and legal costs and we have to address that.
In terms of the insurance companies themselves, we continue to call for more detailed information to be published down to insurance company levels in the national claims information database, NCID - the database of insurance information. That would be useful in terms of transparency.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I will finish because my time is up. There is something not right with the fact that we have insurance companies making such huge profits. We have companies paying higher premiums. We saw the motor industry report last week as well. Premiums are higher and higher. Sorry, that is motor insurance. They are blaming fixing cars. When it comes to public liability, we have had nobody in. I would urge Mr. McHugh, although he said it is not a priority for the CCPC now. The businesses in that sector that cannot get insurance cannot wait for the CCPC to decide that it will be a priority. I would ask Mr. McHugh to think about that and take it as something from today.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Insurance is absolutely a priority. Whether we do a big long study is a different question, but we continue to work on this. Even this week, we have been working on insurance with the European Commission in order to get more access to insurance information for the self-insured. That is something we have been working on this week as an agency. We will continue to work in the insurance area.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Nelson Murray. I now call Deputy Clendennen from Fine Gael.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair and thank Mr. McHugh for joining us here today. I have a number of questions. To pick up on pricing, first of all, maybe Mr. McHugh can clarify the so-called 30-day window. Has Mr. McHugh any observations on dynamic pricing in such areas as hospitality or air fares?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Dynamic pricing is used in a number of industries, including hotels and air fares. It is open to businesses to decide how they price. In Ireland, we do not direct businesses how to set their prices. That is generally a good thing. What we would say as the consumer protection agency is that businesses must be very clear with the information they provide consumers before they make a purchase decision. That is very important. It is our role to monitor and make sure that consumer law has been followed. Also for businesses, some consumers will find dynamic pricing very frustrating and unfair.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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How do we protect the consumer? A hotel bed, for instance, could be €100 today and €500 tomorrow. It could be a multiple of five. An airplane seat, for example, could be €20 today and it could be €500 tomorrow, which is a multiple of 25. Is there any way we can protect the consumer from that or what are Mr. McHugh's thoughts on it?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Should there be a scope where those multiples can function? For example, if it is €20 today and it is €500 tomorrow, should we be looking at a greater level, not of - I do not want to use the word - "control", but some element of reasonability to the consumer in terms of the likely price range?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
What we would say is it is important that consumers have absolutely clear information on what price they are going to pay before they make their buying decision. Where we get into in some way trying to restrict the freedom of businesses to set their prices, it is a slippery slope. It is very difficult. In spite of how frustrating consumers find it, it is very difficult to try and set some form of price control for industry.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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There are rack rates in the hotel sector, however.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there a rack rate in airlines?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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But so do hotels. They have to set the rack rate with Fáilte Ireland but I understand there is no rack rate in airlines.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
What we will have seen in Europe when we look at markets where consumers have benefited hugely from liberation and from letting airlines have way more freedom, is the airline industry. On the idea that we should in some way instruct or put restrictions on airlines as to what they should price, in the long run the consumer would be worse off.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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This is an important area, both for the protection of the consumer but also protecting businesses. Has the CCPC done any studies on the potential or relative cost for businesses to be compliant and to ensure that they are competitive but able to trade as well without excessive bureaucracy?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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But as a support to businesses.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We support the businesses. We work with local enterprise offices, LEOs. We provide our own guidance. What we find is that where businesses are putting their systems in place, to do so to make it compliant with the law at that time is not a huge additional cost. You have to put systems in place. I talked about the pricing directive. In terms of the IT systems that companies have, those who prioritise compliance with the law have put in place systems that ensure their prices comply with the law. What we do not want is that businesses who break the law get to benefit from those businesses who take the time to comply with the law.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the shadow economy, is the CCPC seeing numbers on the increase or what is it seeing in terms of different sectors? In relation to the shadow economy and activity in it, are there particular sectors that are worse than others?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If a business is trading and there is someone two miles outside the town or village who is trading as well, they are essentially impacting the business on the high street. Would the CCPC not investigate that at all?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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My final point is in relation to acquisitions, takeovers and mergers, we recently had a scenario with a recycling company that was put on the market potentially for purchase and there would have been concerns among consumers that there would be a concentration of this service, and, as there was no competition, if anything happened, there would be a higher risk of no service being made available but also pricing. What reassurances does the CCPC give members of the public, from a consumers' perspective, if they phone the CCPC and say that they have read this in the newspaper and it will potentially be a commercial sale? What reassurances can the CCPC give them? What clauses or enforcement can the CCPC put in place on such transactions to ensure that the consumer is protected?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
In terms of our merger regime, the ultimate point of the merger regime is to protect consumers. With the carpark at Dublin Airport, for example, we blocked the DAA from owning it and effectively having a monopoly. Consumers are now protected because when they go to book with a carpark at the airport, they now have a choice and can trade off the prices. The companies are competing for their custom. That is how consumers are protected.
Specifically on waste, we issued a report on waste in 2018 where we explicitly said that the merger regime will not protect consumers from consolidation in the waste sector that we are seeing, that it needs a regulatory authority to do so, that we are concerned about the waste sector and the long-term impact on consumers, and that the way the sector is structured will mean there will not be new entry. You always like to see new entry into a market. It is what brings new ideas and innovation that benefits consumers. That will not be seen in waste and it needs some form of regulation. Seven years ago, we made that study. We continue to advocate for an intervention within the waste sector in order that consumers are protected.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Senator Nelson Murray touched on the lack of competition in the insurance sector. Is there one particular sector that the CCPC would see above all others that is lacking competition and in dire need of new players or new entrants?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is great to be able to say that under privilege. I thank Deputy Clendennen. Our next speaker is Deputy Conway-Walsh of Sinn Féin.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies for being late.
The reason is that I was meeting with the Fastway workers. Maybe it is timely that the witnesses are here because I want to put a broader question to them about the company they worked for. What can the commission do to ensure that workers and small businesses are protected? Many small businesses and franchisees were impacted by the shutdown last week. There were signs all along. The workers told me some frightening stories about changes that were made within the company structures that have resulted in this 30-day receivership. How can we allow companies to operate like that in this State? What can we do to ensure that the businesses which are dependent on bigger businesses are either secure or protected? That is probably my main question.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We are very aware of the Fastway issue. We have issued information to consumers who are affected. Obviously, small businesses are significantly affected as well, in addition to the employees - the workers - at Fastway, which does raise a lot of issues, namely corporate issues and social welfare issues, that are not within our remit.
The other matter that we have raised and that falls within our remit is whether there is an element of dominance within that market. We have powers in relation to breaches of competition law, and abuse of dominance is one of those areas. I will not say anything further because that would be a potential enforcement action. In light of that, I would not like to go into any detail on the merits or otherwise of the allegations.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Let us not do that. I completely appreciate that in terms of talking specifically about one company, but what do we have in place here to ensure that companies in general operate in a responsible manner, particularly where they are based abroad or were part of a company has moved to a Third World country? All these things are happening, but is anybody inspecting what is happening within companies to prevent situations arising where workers and other businesses are severely impacted?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The CCPC is responsible for consumer protection. In that role, where does it step in to assist the 50,000 people who are waiting for deliveries?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have issued guidance information for consumers in terms of their rights. The obligation is on the seller to get the product to the consumer. The consumer should go back to the seller if there are any issues. It is not the consumer's responsibility to deal with the delivery, it is up to the seller to deal with it and to get the product to the consumer. We have issued information for consumers in that circumstance.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The seller can obviously be a small business that is struggling itself, and may be very dependent on its cash flow and having those transactions done in a timely manner. Where is the protection for the sellers?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McHugh can see what happens in a sense. We are talking about competitiveness, and our main aim is how we can ensure that businesses are sustainable and are protected and competitive going forward. If we have a situation where businesses can be forced to close down overnight because the environment within which they are operating fails them - not because they have done anything wrong themselves - who is there to protect them? I suppose that is the wider question. I understand the CCPC has the remit, but maybe the remit is too narrow as it is and perhaps it needs to be wider.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will not continue my questioning further, out of respect, because I know that others will have asked questions that I was going to ask anyway. I will just close on the point that we need to do everything possible to ensure that businesses, particularly small businesses, remain competitive but, also, that they operate in an environment that is safe for them and that is conducive to them looking after their workers.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McHugh, Mr. Kenny and Mr. Barry very much for coming in. I also thank Mr. McHugh for his opening statement. Competitiveness is of the utmost importance in a small open economy like Ireland, which has a population of 5.4 million. A small country provides challenges when it comes to competition because of the size of the market. I would like to talk to the witnesses about the banking sector, the legal sector and the insurance sector but, unfortunately, I do not have time today. Instead, I am going to concentrate on the grocery sector and supermarkets.
The cost of living remains one of the biggest challenges for households right now, and groceries are one of the biggest weekly expenses for many families. Given that, how confident can we be that the supermarket and grocery sector is fully playing by the rules and that consumers are getting a fair deal?
Following on from that, could the witnesses outline how many investigations the CCPC has carried out in the grocery retail sector over the past year and what those investigations have found? How does the CCPC decide which areas or companies to investigate? What does that process look like from start to finish? They are my first two questions.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I will start at the end. In terms of how we make decisions around what to investigate, we have prioritisation principles under which we focus on the areas where there is the most harm for consumers, and where we can have the biggest impact. We take into account how much resources it would take and the strategic impact in terms of the broader environment, for example, whether there is ongoing legislative work in an area that we could add to.
Groceries will always be a priority for us. This is a huge issue in terms of the amount of household budget that is spent on groceries, so we will always be interested. I mentioned earlier that we do carry out 200 on-site inspections every year across the country. We also perform online inspections. Many of those will be in respect of supermarkets and groceries.
In terms of the number of investigations, when we are doing inspections, there is a form at the start of an investigation. We will engage with supermarkets multiple times to ensure they comply with consumer law. I mentioned the Tesco case, which we prosecuted in terms of pricing and in particular around-----
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Tesco was prosecuted. It made a donation of €1,000 to a charity. Does Mr. McHugh not think that it is worth its while to be uncompetitive when it is only getting a slap on the wrist in the amount of €1000?
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Should the penalties not take into consideration the size of the business and the turnover of the business to make sure that it is not viable for it to go out there and be uncompetitive in its actions?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. That is exactly what happens in competition, so we now have powers to levy sanctions for breaches of competition law and we set out how we calculate them, which is about the harm to consumers and to the turnover the company, so that they are proportionate, but also they are a deterrent. If we take the Tesco case, what happened was around club card pricing.
Probably millions of Irish consumers will have been in a Tesco store looking at a Clubcard price. A big proportion of them look at the unit price so that they can make their decision on what to buy. As we know, Clubcard pricing is a big part of the Tesco business. The amount of product bought at those Clubcard prices that did not have unit prices that allowed the consumer to make the decision is a serious issue for us. That is why we took the case. The outcome of a €1,000 contribution to charity leads us to believe we need new legislation. We need better powers for consumer fines and we welcome the decision to bring those in. We look forward to coming back to the committee to discuss that legislation, hopefully next year.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I also look at some of the multiples and they offer vouchers for a certain amount of purchase. It is a sizable discount. That should be given to every customer, as opposed to just those who are making a certain purchase. In fact, they are abusing their power because of the size of the business. Is anything being done by the CCPC to stop this kind of action in the retail sector?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
There is no ongoing investigation. Vouchers and pricing in grocery stores are things we look at and monitor. There is no ongoing investigation, however. It is an issue in other countries as well and we work closely internationally because there is so much in common with the markets we look at. It is something we monitor and are aware of. We are aware of the concerns that consumers and stakeholders have. While there is no current action, groceries will always be a live area – this goes back to our prioritisation principles - because consumers spend so much money in supermarkets.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am not going to mention the names of any supermarkets because I am not going to give them the advertisement, but if we look at the insurance industry in Ireland, a small country with a small population, we know for a fact that it is making double the profit compared with other European jurisdictions. What is the comparison between the Irish supermarkets and what is happening in the rest of Europe with regard to profit margins?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We provided some figures in our recent analysis on grocery stores. We did not see a big difference between the supermarket profits in Ireland and other countries. The one thing, which we highlighted in our analysis, is that the entry of the discounters into the supermarket market in Ireland has had a huge, positive impact.
In the figure we set out in our analysis, food inflation in Europe since 2008, on average, stands at 59%. That is a lot of years. In Ireland, however, it is 1%. That is what the rate of food inflation has been. That is what happens when there are new entries into the market with new ideas and competition. It also says a lot about what competition was like before then.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why then does it feel so different for people walking into a supermarket when Mr. McHugh says there has only been a 1% increase in food prices? Why does it look so different to people when they are walking around, filling their trolley, queueing, getting to the till and paying their bill?
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Can the CCPC not get under the bonnet to see where this is coming from and follow up with sanctions?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We looked at whether the inflation problem, which is a very real problem, is driven by a lack of competition among supermarkets in Ireland. We did not find significant problems in that area. We also engaged closely with An Rialálaí Agriabhia, which has powers to look at the food supply chain. We have a good relationship with it. I know it is looking for extra powers in terms of its ability to get certain information and to look along the supply chain to see what is happening. It publishes interesting reports in that area.
Again, in the context of where the CCPC comes from and today’s discussion on competitiveness, I know that if the Deputy were to provide to his constituents the figures I provided earlier, it would not make a difference because they feel the effect today. In the big picture long term, however, the entry into Ireland of those supermarkets has had a huge, positive impact for consumers. That is the kind of big picture we look at. We look at what markets are functioning well and what markets need reform. It takes time for reforms to come through. I know people do not feel it and I have the same conversations myself, but supermarket competition is actually in a better place in Ireland than it used to be.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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With the backdrop of COP30, sustainability and all of these buzzwords around climate are important. At the end of the day, however, many products will have claims around their climate neutrality or carbon emissions. What I wish to get to the bottom of is whether the CCPC is actively testing claims like “eco-friendly” or “carbon neutral.”. That is my first question.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. This is a live area internationally. It is something on which new legislation has been brought in to provide more explicit detail on what is and is not allowed. The answer is "Yes". In the general principles, where consumers are misled into buying a product, then that is a breach of the law and something we are interested in.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, I do not want details of specific cases, but have there been cases of that nature where someone has falsely claimed that a product is carbon neutral or environmentally friendly and the CCPC has tested the claim to find it was false?
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
This has been looked at a European level because a lot of these claims are across Europe. There has been European action in that regard and new laws are coming down the track. It is one of those areas where consumers can be easily misled on any sorts of things like this. They can make purchases they later regret and we see the same thing with influencers and so forth. It is a live area that people are looking into. We look into complaints and we contact traders where we think there are issues with misleading claims. At the end of the day, if consumers are misled and people do not change their behaviour, it is kind of a pyramid of enforcement. You talk to them, show them it is wrong and wait for them to mend their hand.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is a risk of greenwashing out there at the moment. There are so many consumers who want to support products that are doing good for the environment and their goodwill towards such claims can be taken advantage of. It is an area that will develop and grow more and more. Are the penalties for misleading environmental marketing the same as those for any other misleading marketing?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. The next thing I wish to speak about is online subscription traps. Primarily, does Irish law adequately protect consumers from automatic renewals and difficult cancellation processes? Does the CCPC have direct engagement with companies about their cancellation processes? Does it have those open conversations about how things could be done more smoothly?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is a big area, both for us and internationally. The short answer is "No". There are not enough legislation and deterrents in this sector. We talked generally about the deterrent effect from consumer fines, which are very low in Ireland. On a broader European area, there is ongoing consultation around the digital fairness Act. The issues of subscription traps and dark patterns, where consumers’ experiences are not fair and they are misled into making purchases, are very real. Further powers are needed in this regard.
One of the key principles we are keen to see is the idea of “easy in, easy out”. The journey to buy a product or to subscribe to something should be the same as the journey to unsubscribe. It should not be the case that it takes one click to buy the thing, but then three months on the phone with no one on the other end trying to get out of it.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the CCPC is aware that there are still companies out there that operate like this where the cancellation process, whether it is for television or broadband, can be incredibly arduous and drawn out, involving multiple conversations. In some cases, those tactics are built in by design on their websites. It can be difficult to find the cancel button and there can be multiple attempts to upsell the person back into the product. That is really frustrating for consumers who have already made the mental decision to cancel. They just want to be allowed to cancel. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on that?
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
We did a study last year on consumer detriment and that is what we got at.
We asked people how much time they had spent dealing with traders. Most of the billion-euro cost is wasted time. A lot of it relates to things like this where it is very easy to come into the room but, all of a sudden, there is no button to click, no email address and no process laid out as to how to leave. It is a huge problem.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Would the CCPC support a one-click cancellation policy?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We would support the journey in being the same as the journey out. If it takes one click to get in, it should take one click to get out. The other principle is compliance by design. Systems must be designed to comply with the law. There is definitely more work to be done by way of legislating and bringing cases to make it easier for regulators to be confident in saying that these things we see, which get people very frustrated, are breaches of the law and in telling services not to do them and that, if they do, they will be punished.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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My last question is on switching. There are some really good websites in the Irish marketplace that offer a really smooth switching service. Whether a person is switching electricity provider or telecoms provider, these websites handle it all and it is seamless. While those options exist, does the CCPC find that it is frictionless for people to switch providers, whether for insurance or electricity? How does the CCPC find that process?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is a mixture and depends on the market. Some of those markets, such as the energy and telecoms markets, are overseen by regulators. The Deputy did not mention our website, which allows users to compare financial products. We all agree that the experience of consumers in switching financial products, including mortgages and current accounts, is not seamless whatsoever. One of our priorities in the banking sector is switching. We want to see new entries and we have seen the fintech companies but consumers must be able to switch seamlessly. One of our focuses is our website. We are always developing it and making it as good as possible. Another is the experience of consumers who switch. Going back to the legal sector, one element of that experience is conveyancing. If you want to switch your mortgage, conveyancing is a big barrier. It is difficult, lengthy and expensive. You must look at the whole picture to make the consumer journey as smooth as possible.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have run out of time but I really do appreciate that response.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Barry is indicating. Would he like to come in on Deputy Dolan's question?
Mr. Simon Barry:
I will briefly add a couple of things on that exact point to add to what Mr. McHugh was saying on the banking side of things. We made a number of recommendations that we have seen followed through. We very much welcome two things in particular that relate to the Deputy's point. One is that, when the new consumer protection code comes into effect next year, mortgage providers will be required to provide an annual personalised savings statement to draw customers' attention to any possibilities to change products and benefit from any savings that might arise if products with lower interest rates than their prevailing rate are available. The second thing we are also glad to see feature in the new code is a requirement for lenders to point customers to our website and our Money Tools services to allow people to see the range of product options available.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is very welcome.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late. I was caught in the Chamber. I am very pro-CCPC. It plays a huge role. It is what it says on the tin when what is on the tin is often not what is in the tin. Do the witnesses know what I am trying to say? It protects the consumer and that is very important. With that in mind, I have read that the CCPC is looking for additional resources to fulfil its duties. I would like to hear more about that. I am concerned about enforcement powers and I would also like to hear more about that. Will the witnesses discuss those issues in general terms? What steps have they been taking on both of those issues?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
On resources, as I have mentioned, we have a very good relationship with our Department. We have had a significant increase in resources and staff. That has been very welcome. We have had a huge increase in the number of new functions we have. That is ongoing. I mentioned it in the opening statement. There is a long list of new legislation that will give us new responsibilities. In order to deliver on these, we will need further resources. I will call out one particular issue that we continue to engage with the Department on. That is senior leadership. There are currently four commissioners at the CCPC. In 2014, when we were merged, there were five. While we have grown hugely and have more budget, which has matched our significant increase in functions and responsibilities, there is a reluctance within the system to allow senior resources at the level of Mr. Kenny and myself. That puts huge stress on the organisation and creates huge risks. With regard to our risk register, it is something we are particularly concerned about.
I will move on to enforcement. When we take on companies, whether Tesco, Ticketmaster, Temu, Shein or any other company, we are taking on very big companies that are very well resourced and which will protect their interests. We therefore need a team with the experience and expertise, whether legal, economic or technological, to sit across the table from a very senior and experienced defence and fight the corner for consumers. We very much welcome the new enforcement powers we received relatively recently in the area of competition. They have made a big difference. We know there are cartels in Ireland that we have not been able to find. We now have more cases than we have ever had before. That is great and we hope to bring them through to the imposition of sanctions at the end of the process.
On consumer enforcement, we have talked about various cases that ended up in a €1,000 contribution to charity. We are really looking forward to getting strong consumer powers because that will make a difference. The decisions that businesses make to comply with the law will change. I particularly call out the businesses that already comply with the law. They will not have to do anything. It is the ones who do not and who currently get away with it that will now have to comply with the law and protect consumers.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I note the swift response to Deputy Clendennen on the major issues in dealing with barristers and solicitors. I read that the CCPC feels we need to go further than the reforms that are in place. Will the witnesses outline what that means? What further steps do we need to take?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
As I have said, 20 years ago, we issued a report on the reforms to the legal sector we would like to see. We are still waiting. We have listed a number of these. To pick just one, conveyancing is a solicitors' monopoly in Ireland. It is not in England, Wales, New Zealand or Australia. It does not need to be. In Ireland, it costs about €1,800 to convey your house. In New Zealand, it is around €600. It is also much quicker in other countries. That is what competition does.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. McHugh repeat that figure?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is €600 in New Zealand versus €1,800 here. It is also much quicker in other countries. That is what competition does. Obviously, we all know that solicitors are perfectly capable of doing conveyancing but, when there is competition, you have to hone your game, get better technology and get better and faster at doing it because consumer want a good service at a good price. That is one area of legal reform we have called out. We are also aware of the training monopolies and the rules around the training of solicitors and barristers. There needs to be more places for them to train. The Kelly reforms, which go back a number of years, relate to the courts, how disclosure works and how things are let or not let into the courts as regards judicial reviews. We have a very slow and expensive courts system in Ireland. It is really important that we speed that up. One thing we have called for is just for the data to be provided so that we can compare Ireland with other countries. We want to have all the data on the courts system, how much things cost, how long they take and the price of legal services in Ireland. We do not have that. We need to have it so we can shine a light on the legal system and see how it compares. From our experience, we do not think it compares well internationally. The legal system feeds into all businesses, all consumers and all aspects of things we do. We were even in front of the courts this week. We deal with the legal system regularly. It is an area where Ireland could really up its game as regards competitiveness and the cost of doing business.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kenny is saying that the conveyancing fees are 200% higher in Ireland than they are in New Zealand. Can the witnesses compare them to any closer country, such as the UK, or another country in Europe?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time and keen to get into this. I took up a point earlier that there is a 1% increase in supermarket pricing.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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From what I can gather, the value supermarkets came in and brought the prices of everyone else down, but in the last while they have gone up. If the witnesses come back in two years' time will that figure be a multiple of 1%?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It may be. We spend a lot of time with our international colleagues. Issue number one in all other countries is groceries and food inflation. I mentioned the figure of 27%. That is lower than the European average. While prices have gone up significantly - we all see it and hear about it and it is a real struggle for families - in other European countries the inflation rates are higher.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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To return to my question, how does Mr. Barry think it will be in two years' time? It will be double digits.
Mr. Simon Barry:
All the evidence we have marshalled tells us that Ireland's price uplift has been lower than European norms over the long term and in the recent spikes. We are acutely aware that Irish households have faced serious pain in their household grocery bills, so it will provide no comfort to point out that the uplift we have seen in Ireland is quite a bit lower. It is 27% here compared with a norm of 35% across Europe. That is not to downplay the sizable uplift, but it is lower than European norms.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McHugh, Mr. Barry and Mr. Kenny for being here and for the important work they are doing for consumers and competition. Mr. Barry has acknowledged the pressure consumers are under with increasing grocery costs. I was nominated to run for election to the Seanad by RGDATA, which represents independent food retailers. Its members say that a large part of their increased pricing is being driven by increased cost that is driven by increased pricing in energy and insurance. Has the CCPC undertaken any investigations of competition in the energy and insurance markets?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I will ask Mr. Barry to talk in a minute about the work we have done in insurance. Both sectors are important. They both have regulators we work closely with. We carried out a study recently of the insurance sector and made recommendations, some of which have been carried out and some of which have not. I will ask Mr. Barry to go through some of the recommendations we think may make a difference and the ones that are outstanding.
Mr. Simon Barry:
Our work in insurance spans a long period. We have done studies spanning the past 20 years and it is an area we remain very active in because we are acutely aware of how important it is not just to the committee, but to the businesses and consumers we all serve.
Most recently, in our submission for the insurance reform action plan, we targeted a number of areas because we believe in their value in better outcomes for businesses and consumers, including the area of information, transparency and provision, where we welcomed not just the introduction in 2019 of a new database covering the insurance sector but also its expansion. We may have briefly touched on this earlier; we also think there is merit in and advantages for the further development of that database to be considered to provide even more detail on exactly how the insurance sector operates in different markets in Ireland. The reason that is important is that providing a degree of transparency about how the market works is an important way of attracting new entrants and highlighting where there may be gaps in provision or particular opportunities other providers may wish to seize.
Another area we regard as an important structural change is the way claims are settled, as claims are an important driver of insurance costs. We welcome the expanded remit the Injuries Resolution Board now has. What is really impactful is where we see the concrete examples of how much quicker and cheaper it is for claims to be settled through that mechanism. We believe that as the system makes more use of the board as a way of settling disputes, it will play an important role in getting better outcomes. As much as we welcome all the progress that has been made, we acknowledge - Mr. McHugh touched on this earlier - that in some cases, elements of the major changes that are unfolding will take time. I will give one example that goes back to the Senator's earlier question. In our major study of the public liability market, which we completed in 2020, one of the recommendations we made related to the expansion of the board's role to include a mediation service. That has now been implemented as of the end of 2024. That is relatively recent, but we are encouraged to see metrics, for example, that approximately 50% of cases that go into the mediation service offered by the board are accepted. Where that happens, the settlement time is three months, compared with litigation, which can take on average 5.8 or six years. It is not that where we are is in some way attractive from the perspective of people seeking to get insurance, but we take some degree of encouragement from the journey the system has been on and in the way our recommendations have been followed through on in a number of important areas.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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What activities has the CCPC undertaken on ensuring value for money and fair pricing in the energy sector?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The energy sector is complex. We engage with the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, on it. There is a huge amount of detail around how those markets work from a regulatory point of view. In the wholesale market, it is the around the various auctions, capacity and generation. We engage with the CRU in ensuring competition is a part of those markets. There is a fundamental issue in Europe, particularly since the Ukraine war. The way markets work is that the prices tend to be effectively set by the price of gas and that means the prices in Europe are very high because the price of gas is high. The countries that have much cheaper electricity prices tend to have other sources, such as nuclear energy, or cheap gas, such as the US, which has fracked a lot of gas. That kind of big picture of how that market can be amended is a European question, so there are no quick, easy answers unfortunately. We keep engaging with the CRU on the issues. For example, we have advocated for private wires to be allowed - we have seen something similar in water infrastructure recently - where developers other than the network owner can develop their own lines to be quicker and more efficient. However, the big picture is that it will probably require a significant change either to the price of gas, or the market structure which is a European question and one that is being debated regularly.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McHugh for his response. It is complex, but if it is complex for Mr. McHugh and me, it is complex for everyone who is paying an energy bill.
Truly, it is at this point one of the biggest costs for households but also for businesses. People are very exercised about it because it is threatening their quality of life, their ability to get on with their lives and do the things they want to do. They would an appreciate an authority like the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission that is respected and has credibility throwing some light or clarity on the issue and the complexity of it. For them, it is a really pressing issue. There is huge frustration, and rightly so, with people struggling to just cope with it. There are many factors and it is complex but an organisation like the commission would be ideally positioned to help bring some clarity and understanding for the public on it.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Some interesting questions were asked. I would like to follow up on some of the ones raised and ask a few new ones. Since 2023, the commission can now impose administrative fines of up to €10 million or 10% of the company's worldwide turnover. What proportion of companies do not have to go through the courts process? It has been criticised and the commission mentioned that the fines that are levied for smaller types of breaches are insufficient. What sort of response have the witnesses got from the Government about those insufficient fines? Is it working on it and going to bring forward legislation? Has it received any indication at all?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The fining powers we have of €10 million or 10% relate to breaches of competition law. They do not relate to breaches of consumer law. We have been engaged and identified this as an issue, in that we need to bring consumer law into line with competition law. We have seen with the competitiveness action plan that the proposal is that the Government will be bringing legislation forward, hopefully next year, to bring consumer law into line with competition law, whereby the commission can levy sanctions. It is subject to court approval.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Moving from the general to the very specific, could Mr. McHugh talk briefly about influencers? I notice the commission has issued a number of compliance notices to influencers. They are becoming more and more influential, for want of a better term. Often, what they are selling is absolute drivel and they are making a few quid out of it. In terms of influencers, even the smaller fines would have more impact on an individual than it would have on the company. Has the commission got the balance right yet in terms of compliance notices versus issuing fines to ensure that other rising influencers do not start following suit?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The approach we have taken with influencers is similar to what we have done elsewhere, in that we have issued guidance to those businesses or individuals on what the law is and what they need to do. We have issued warning letters where we are concerned the law is not being followed. We then moved on to compliance notices, as the Deputy said. I would highlight again that this would be a breach of consumer law. Currently, there is no ability for us to fine the individual or the business. It would be a prosecution through the courts.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Okay, which makes it a little more difficult, as Mr. McHugh said before.
I want to move on to the online sector. The commission has issued press statements before warning people about fake websites that say "Shop Cork", "Shop Ireland", etc., and they are totally fake. On the likes of Facebook, there are ads that tell people to do tai chi and they will be ripped in six weeks. Does the commission have any role in tackling those types of companies, or is it all left up to Coimisiún na Meán in terms of misinformation? Can the commission say to Meta that it is putting ads up that are totally fake and tell it to take them down or it will be fined? Have there been any cases where the commission has actually fined them? I would be interested in that.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
In terms of consumer law, if you are misleading someone into making a purchasing decision, it can be a breach of consumer law and we can take action. We have done that in a number of areas. Influencers are one element of that in terms of people buying this product but not saying that actually-----
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I mean these sponsored ads on Facebook that are prevalent. Meta seems to be making a huge income out of this and getting away with it.
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
I will come in on this. The Deputy is pointing out an important problem. There is new legislation to try to get that, including the Digital Services Act because the business model is to put these things out there. When we do point out, even before these things come in, that we have issues with stuff on marketplaces, they get taken down but they get taken down on a case-by-case basis.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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That is a problem.
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
Where we are moving to in the next couple of years is actually saying the business model is wrong, that platforms know that these things are happening and should be able to identify when they are scams are whatever and stop them from getting onto the system because that is a much better outcome. The experience internationally is that case by case it works but it does not work. It works on the individual case but the things keep popping up. We chase Gola hurling helmets and we get them taken down. An hour later they are back somewhere else. We are moving now in Europe towards tackling general business models saying you cannot be putting misleading or unsafe products on your platforms.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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In five years' time we could have a different scenario.
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
I am hoping it will be quicker than that but let us see. It will be a challenge because we are now starting to impact. Once you start to impact the business model, then you will start, as Mr. McHugh said, with the dozens of lawyers on the other side and Nobel laureates in economics and whatever. You will face a lot of pushback.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Moving on to housing, sometimes people are bidding for unsuitable properties due to unclear or exaggerated advertisements, which is something the commission has alluded to before. Delays in conveyancing were mentioned and to which others referred to. One thing that caught my eye was that an estate agent, if a question is asked by a potential purchaser, should publish that question or answer somewhere. I could see that would be quite easy to append onto the estate agent's site, daft.ie or myhome.ie. Is there any progress in that regard? Does it require legislative change?
Mr. Simon Barry:
It was published this summer. It looked at information provision in the market for home buying. I refer to one of the actions that we have taken on foot of the research because part of what we found in the course of that study was that consumers are frustrated and dissatisfied with the level of information provision, the quality of it and the time that the entire process takes, hence Mr. McHugh's point earlier about the conveyancing profession reforms, which we regard as important. On the Deputy's specific question, one of the actions we have taken is to write new guidance targeting estate agents and developers in order that we will set a new higher standard for information provision in property advertisements. That is something that we will be working on in the coming year.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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The 2018 report was the waste management report. This is my final question for now. The commission talked about getting a regulator in. Do the witnesses think it is feasible, on an estate-by-estate basis, for a company to tender to all the people living in the housing estate for the service every year, or is that too much regulation? How soon does the commission think it could have a situation where an estate with 200 to 300 people is told about the providers and the services they offer and it gets to vote collectively every two to five years? Is that a scenario the commission can envisage or see happening?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Again, what we said is that a regulator should look at this, get into the detail and drive a market that actually delivers for consumers. The detail will be up to the regulator. What we see elsewhere is bigger areas. A local authority might divide it into two or three. It depends on the geography and the number of consumers. The goal they would have is they want to bring in new entrants, someone who would see this contract over however many years and say, "I'm going to come into Ireland with my new ideas and service and set up because the contract is quite attractive to me". Currently, there is no mechanism in the waste sector in Ireland where anyone would come in and try to start from scratch. It just would not make business sense. The design of what area it will be, how long the contract will be and how many people will be in it will be part of the regulatory design.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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One thing that has come up repeatedly as a TD for the people of Cork East and as Chair of this committee from the witnesses who have come before us is the difficulty of being a small business owner in Ireland and the dramatic increase in costs, if you average it out on electricity compared to where it was ten years ago.
I have always wanted to pose this question. This is my first time to have the CCPC before us at the committee since I have was elected to the Oireachtas. This is a good chance to get an answer in respect of the matter I am about to raise. The ESB Group had €313 million in profits after tax for the first six months of this year. Bord Gáis had an operating profit of €75 million in 2024. SSE Airtricity had €111 million in profit over the 12-month cycle from March 2024. The profit for the ESB Group was, as stated, after tax. Something fundamental has gone wrong with the electricity market in Ireland in terms of what consumers are having to pay. What are the facts in this regard? They are that, on average, Ireland comes first, second or third in terms of cost for non-residential electricity prices in Europe. We topped the chart for a while in the past 12 months. This is putting people out of business. What is the CCPC doing about it? Without being flippant, it does not seem to be doing very much. The energy companies seem to be getting away with this again and again. We have seen what happens. I am often labelled as a 22-year-old who came into the Dáil with no life experience. However, one of the jobs I did, which was one of the most valuable experiences I have had, while I was in secondary school and during one of my summers as an undergraduate was to work in electricity sales in rural Ireland. I will not name the company I worked for. Doing that job allows you to see what life is like behind people's doors, to see the shape and size of every home, to discover who has lots of money and, more often than not, unfortunately, to realise that those who are living on shoestring budgets are under huge pressure.
Another issue that made me sick was the number of elderly people who were unaware of what being out of contract meant for them. People have this kind of loyalty in their older years, so they like to stick with a brand. They are getting screwed for doing so because they do not realise that once you go beyond your 12-month, 18-month or two-year contract with your electricity provider, the unit price range rockets by different amounts. It is not feasible for me to go through them all but it is in excess of 20% in many cases. That makes an awful difference for a widow or widower on fuel allowance in the context of trying to buy get a few groceries. We all know what has happened grocery prices as well. It makes a real difference in people's lives.
On the business front, while we, the enterprise committee, are discussing this issue, it also has ramifications elsewhere. I referenced the fact that we have topped the chart in Europe a couple of times. It seems that there is something terribly wrong. I accept there are huge capex requirements in the context of the electricity grid in this country. I am not underestimating those. However, consumers are really losing out. I would love to get the views of CCPC on this matter. Will the witnesses indicate what the commission is doing about it?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
In the context of energy and the profits of the various companies, the ESB is regulated by the CRU as a network-owning business. A huge amount of effort goes into overseeing that company in order to ensure that what it delivers is efficient, including in the context of its profits. I am not going to comment on the decisions that are made. A great deal is published on how those decisions are arrived at. There will always be questions for the CRU on how to resolve this problem, because the problem identified by the Cathaoirleach is very real in terms of businesses and consumers. We talked a bit about supermarkets where there have been major improvements. We just have not seen improvement in the energy sector. The market is not delivering for Irish consumers and businesses. A huge effort goes in from the teams there to try to deliver for Irish businesses and consumers. As stated earlier, how the market is designed and how gas prices drive the electricity prices in Ireland that we all experience are matters of constant debate. People are trying to find solutions. We do not duplicate the work of the CRU in terms of those market designs. The CRU tries, in multiple consultations, to make the market work better. We engage with the CRU on certain issues around competition. We had conversations with the CRU this week. There are regular engagements. In respect of the fundamental problem, however, as I mentioned, the market design is a Europe-wide issue. It comes up in many European countries.
In regard to the consumer, we did quite a bit of work on switching a number of years ago. There is a real issue with what is called a loyalty penalty whereby consumers who are loyal to particular businesses suffer for it. We have seen this in the insurance sector, for example. We believe that regulators should intervene to ensure-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to pause there. Unfortunately, time is running out. I want to be fair to other members.
There is an equilibrium between the loyalty value and how vulnerable individuals can be. Since the privatisation and demonopolising of the electricity network in Ireland, there are people who genuinely still do not understand that sticking with one company and not being in contract is costing them a fortune. There is an ethics issue there, because it is really hurting those who are most vulnerable. I have seen it. I would love to see that being addressed by your good selves, particularly in terms of where there is an age cut-off. As we all know, one person can be as sharp as a tack at age 105, whereas somebody in their 60s, because of medical conditions, etc., may not be as sharp. It is not clear-cut, but surely there is a common-sense point where age could be looked at in order to address that or where the companies would have to send out a proper notice that makes it very clear that a consumer is out of contract and is, as a consequence, paying a significantly higher cost for electricity.
I will finish on the business aspect. The CCPC needs to be aware of what the committee has heard. It is hugely significant. Whether it is a small supermarket in the west of Ireland or a haulier, a concrete business or any of the long list of organisations and businesses that have been in communication with us, energy costs have been high on their agendas. They are hurting. As we saw when we ran through the profits at the outset, the energy companies seem to be creaming it. We need to do something about that.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. It has been a really informative discussion. They are dealing with complaints in the areas of insurance, tourism and the legal sector. They are busy and have a lot on. There an opinion piece in The Irish Times today by Lorcan Sirr entitled "Irish households are wealthier than ever". However, the next part of the headline is "You're not the only one who didn't notice". I am involved with SMEs and the homeless sector, so I know that people are feeling the pinch and are definitely feeling the cost-of-living crisis. That is every day.
The witnesses mentioned the insurance sector. At last week's meeting, I asked why insurance premiums are rising and why businesses that have not made any claims are still facing increases. I was told that there is a Cabinet subcommittee which deals with all that. However, it seems we do not have any teeth to allow us to deal with it.
The witnesses probably addressed this, but, from a competition perspective, we are meant to have a competitive insurance market. It seems there are very few players, however. They seem to drive the pricing, and it does not seem to decrease. What steps can be taken to address that given that we have a Cabinet subcommittee and that we have the CCPC? Are we too afraid to face it?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
In terms of insurance, as we mentioned, we carried out a study a number of years ago and made a number of recommendations. One of the issues when we spoke to international players at the time about, for example, why they do not come to Ireland, we were informed that it was because the personal injuries landscape is uncertain, awards are high and cases are very lengthy.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The recommendations around changing that have started to come into play.
They are now having an effect. They are not complete, and they cannot go backwards. We need to move the decisions around personal injuries into the Injuries Resolution Board, IRB, which is happening. Mr. Barry talked about that today. That is one element of it.
The other element is we need to see entry. Entry is absolutely key to a healthy market, new ideas and new business models coming in. We have not seen a lot of that yet. That is something that we monitor in terms of the market. We do engage in terms of the information available to new entrants. Previously, a new entrant could not get access to all the historic information that it needed in order to price its insurance products, so-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Is it no claims bonuses from a general data protection regulation, GDPR, point of view?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
No. This database was held by Insurance Ireland and it was only available to members of Insurance Ireland. There was a competition investigation. It was actually led by the European Commission, although we would have worked with it on it. The outcome of that is that database is now open to-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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So, it was a protective mechanism even-----
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. Effectively, it was what we call a barrier to entry. If people want entry to market, they must have that information, and they did not have access to that information. They do now. Recently, we have been working to ensure that the self-insured, which is quite a big part of the market for certain businesses, can also access that database. That is really important.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Does Mr. McHugh think it is going to change?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We think significant reform has been made. We think that we need to keep driving because we have made further recommendations about what information could be available, including down to insurance level. There is a lot of information - rightly; it is a regulated sector - on the insurance that is published, but not down to the level of the insurance companies. It is important to see market shares, profit margins-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Does Mr. McHugh believe that will happen?
Mr. Simon Barry:
I will add something very briefly. This is not the case across all segments of the insurance market, but we did note and welcome some signs of entry in some areas, including motor and home insurance where we have seen OUTsurance, Revolut and Fastnet enter the market. We regard that as a welcome sign, and potentially some indication of payback for some of the reforms that have been introduced. Obviously, we would like to see more entry across more markets, but we do take that as a sign of encouragement.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I have another question. Deputy Gogarty mentioned that one can get a tai chi course - I have been googling, but I cannot find it - on how to get ripped in six weeks. The CCPC is now overseeing influencers and AI. That is all coming under its gig. Is that correct?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
In the context of misleading, to mislead the consumer into making a purchase is a breach of consumer law. Where influencers are effectively selling something that is a product they have an investment in and it is an advertisement and they are not telling the consumer that it is an advertisement, then they are misleading that consumer.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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A prominent rugby player was brought up over that recently. Is that being policed? I noticed that a lot of people I would know in that world get a lot of freebies. Is that policed? Is the competition being governed?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes, in that we have issued guidance as to what would be included where people make an advertisement, including them getting lots of freebies. That guidance is out there. Given that it is a relatively new and huge market, we did a survey. One of the very striking things is that the number of consumers who follow an influencer, have bought a product and felt misled - all three - is 5%. Some 5% of adults have done all those three things, which, as someone who does not follow influencers, I found quite surprising. We have prioritised that market. We have issued the guidance, warning letters and compliance notices and there will be more action in that area because it has such an impact on consumers.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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If they are reported to the CCPC, or does it keep-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Did Mr. Kenny see the website for the six-week rip?
Mr. Patrick Kenny:
-----but I did not, no. We have people looking and we are seeing because, again, it is that journey where we look through, we write to people and say we see stuff that is misleading, and they have to make clear that they are advertising. Then, we come back later. However, we are still sweeping across and we are working with the advertising authority.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I would say it is a quagmire for the like of Revenue as well, but that is a whole different conversation.
Finally, this is not really a question, but I hear what the witnesses are saying about the legal sector. It has been said for years. We are debating defamation in the Seanad and so forth. It is a whole sector that people are scared of touching. I know the witnesses are saying it does not compare internationally and we really need to up our game. I could not agree with them more there.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We will now move on to the second round. I politely suggest that, before we do so, we allow our witnesses and committee team here a five-minute break to use the facilities. Is that agreed? Agreed.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We now commence the second round and go first to Senator Nelson Murray.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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We have sat on this enterprise committee for a good while over the last few weeks going through the increased cost of doing business and insurance just keeps coming up. I know the committee members are probably wondering why someone would mention it again today but such is the importance of having fair insurance for businesses and for people out there that I am going back on it again, even though I started off on insurance when I first spoke today. I am going to speak about brokers. Their pricing model is mostly based on commission. I am not saying brokers would do this but if a broker does not do very well for its consumer or policyholder, he or she makes more money. Would the CCPC be happy with that? Should there be more competition there including looking at the barriers to entry? It seems like a lot of brokers are being bought up by bigger companies. Are we worried that there is going to be even less competition in the market? Again, I am particularly concerned about the public liability side of that.
One of the comments made on solicitors and the legal profession might make a headline because it was quite scary to see that in Ireland we are looking at about €1,800 in conveyancing fees compared to €600 in other countries. Legal fees also always come up as an issue when it comes to insurance. My colleague, Deputy Clendennen, asked what one sector in Ireland the CCPC would look for more competition in, if it could wave a wand or whatever, and solicitors or legal people was the answer given. I had a quick look there and between barristers and solicitors in Ireland we have about 15,000 to 15,500 of them. The equivalent figure in the UK is about 220,000. Looking at both our populations, we are probably on a par. On the solicitors side, how many more would we need? What way does the CCPC see competition coming in in that sector? It is something I have never even thought of in terms of competition. I genuinely thought that if more solicitors came out of college and work, they would just go with the fees the other solicitors have anyway. Is it going to take that one brave person to do a half-price sale on conveyancing, probate or something?
My last question is on the breaches that were mentioned with these retailers and big companies that the CCPC has brought to court. Will Mr. McHugh explain for the average person how it would have affected them had the CCPC not found what it found? What type of breach was it? Was it that somebody would have been paying €50 more for a product? Can he give us an idea as to what impact the CCPC has?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Dealing with the legal question first, in terms of what we mean by competition in legal, if we take conveyancing, what we want to see is the solicitors' monopoly ended. It is not that we want to see lots more solicitors. What we see in those other countries is that it is not just solicitors who can do conveyancing. In Ireland, there is a rule that only solicitors can do conveyancing. In other countries, people still have to be qualified and are still regulated in terms of conveyancing but it is a much narrower field. They are experts in conveyancing. Solicitors still provide the service in those other countries but they now have to compete. Then you have new entry with people coming in saying they are experts in conveyancing and that they will do it quicker and more efficiently and apply technology. As we know from our local solicitors, they do many things. When you have a focus and an expertise in conveyancing, we see new ideas, new technology and new innovation coming in and that is what competition looks like. When we talk about the legal sector, we also mean the broader question of the court system, which is not really about competition per se but it is a fundamental platform of how everything - businesses and consumers - is affected in Ireland. The Kelly reforms have been there for a number of years. We really welcome the Government recommendations to pursue and enact those reforms and they will make a big difference.
Regarding brokers, we have had mergers for brokers. We have not identified significant lessening of competition, which is the legal test we are required to check.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Sorry, the CCPC has not identified-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Yes, and the CCPC has not seen that.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have looked at them and we have not seen that test being of concern. There are a lot of brokers in Ireland. There is consolidation. It is something we do and are aware of and something we keep an eye on. Whether consumers are being protected by the behaviours and the actions of brokers is something else. They would be a regulated entity in terms of the Central Bank's role as the insurance regulator and in respect of consumer protection matters. That is where that would fall. However, there are genuine questions around incentives that are important.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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We did not get a chance to go through the breach one. Could I get one example?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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As we have gone significantly over, can we let in Deputy Gogarty and we can revert back quickly?
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Thanks. I wish to follow on from the waste management side of things on the recommendations the CCPC made in 2018, a long time ago. What in Mr. McHugh's view are the barriers? Is it due to the Government's failure to enact the legislation? Are there civil servants saying this is not workable? What exactly has caused the inertia given that it makes a lot of sense to bring in the regulator and improve competition for consumers?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Sometimes bringing about reform is hard. It is tough to do that. Arguments are also made, mainly by the industry, that the market is working fine and that consumers like having multiple trucks going down their streets. Obviously, the purpose of the industry lobby groups is to lobby for the industry. They are very good at it. Some may be convinced by those arguments, but we are not. Ultimately, it is a decision for the Government. We have seen a lot of commentary lately about the Government needing to make decisions. That is a decision for the Government. We have made our recommendations. We have talked about this already but I accept it would not be fast and quick and with one leap our hero is free. It is a piece of work that would take a significant amount of time.
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I have one other slightly new question. It has been raised before but I have not seen it come from the CCPC very recently. When a phone company or whatever starts to go onto a standard electricity tariff after 12 months, it is being penalised for being a loyal customer. We had a Private Members' Bill, the Consumer Protection (Loyalty Penalty and Customer Complaints) Bill 2021, that did not get past Second Stage because the Government did not move it on. Has the CCPC been having any conversations with Government representatives about making progress in that regard through some sort of related legislation?
Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I hope the CCPC will do another bit of work because a prod is needed, to be quite honest. I thank Mr. McHugh for his time.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Gogarty. We will return to Senator Nelson Murray.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It was on the breaches, because I think it is important that consumers get-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Mr. McHugh does not necessarily have to use those. Will he refer to just some breaches that he spots? In what way are they affecting consumers?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Regarding pricing, what we could see is where something is advertised as 30% off and we know that within the previous 30 days that price had been cheaper.
The consumer was told to buy it now for €100 and it used to be €130. We know from our investigation that it was actually €90. The consumer has been told this. Consumers love deals, which is why this happens. The consumer experience is a key part of our job. Consumers decide to buy the product because they feel they are getting a bargain, whereas they are not because it was cheaper, sometimes a few days ago.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Yes. That is very serious. On the other side, from the retailer's point of view, we do not allow retailers to reduce their prices until they go through a 30-day period. Is that something we should look at?
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I referred earlier to something that cost €100 and the prices is then brought down €70. If it is still not selling at €70 and the retailer wants to reduce the price, they have to wait for 30 days to say it was €100.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Can retailers not just say the product was €170 and now it is €40, to give the retailers even more-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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This particular detail has been raised with me.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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If it is presented properly, it is okay.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It is important to have it, yes.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry I am homing in on it but it is the example of Black Friday, which the whole of Ireland seems to do at the moment. It happens this year on 28 or 29 November. The St. Stephen's Day sales are on 26 December. That does not give retailers the 30 days to bring the price of the product down further and say it was at one price before Black Friday. That is the issue that has been raised with me.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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With regard to Black Friday and St. Stephen's Day, should it be a 25-day period rather than 30 days? It is something that has been raised. Retailers want to reduce their prices again for St. Stephen's Day and to be able to show people one price for a product in October and then say, "Now look, it is this price on St. Stephen's Day". They cannot do that at the moment.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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They should raise it with the CCPC.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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That is a good answer for me to bring back. I thank Mr. Kenny.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The last point I will raise is grocery prices. I know it has been raised by other members here today. I am conscious that we are coming into Christmas, which is a very expensive time for households. If you speak to credit unions, they will tell you about how many people are going to them to borrow and pay for that period of time. It is something that troubles me. I commend the credit unions on the support they give families but Christmas time can leave a very heavy financial toll on families in the first quarter of the new year. We know the year-on-year changes for grocery prices. To take the multiples, the year-on-year cost increases in groceries amount to approximately 6.3%. Prices increased by 6.2% in Dunnes Stores, 7.1% in Tesco, 4.6% in SuperValu, 9.2% in Lidl, 4.1% in Aldi and 4.6% in other outlets. There have been marked increases in the price of groceries and it is putting people under a lot of pressure.
What is the CCPC's message to this committee, and to families and consumers who are under a lot of pressure, around these price hikes. Second, how comfortable is the CCPC with the new systems being implemented around loyalty programmes in supermarkets? I will single out Tesco. The Clubcard price differential on some products is extraordinary, with enormous reductions available on certain products for being a Clubcard member. There are other systems in place. Dunnes Stores has a voucher system where, if the shopping costs in excess of €50, people get €10 off. How do the witnesses feel about the roll-out of these programmes and how they are impacting on households and those who need some degree of protection from a legislative or regulatory point of view?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
On the pain consumers are feeling, we are very aware of it. One of our roles is financial education, budgeting around Christmas and credit. We are very aware of the situation consumers find themselves in and we advise consumers on it and work hard on it. We will always come back to competition as the factor that will ultimately drive the best price for consumers. We are always really focused on whether markets are competitive and what we can do to make them more competitive. I fully understand - I think Mr. Barry has touched on it as well - that as the Chair goes back to his constituents who are really suffering this Christmas, we know this is not going to solve their problem. It is not going to address what they are feeling, which is very real. We, as an organisation and a team, work very hard to boost consumer welfare. That is what we are focused on and we will continue to do that in whatever way we can that will make a difference.
On loyalty programmes and vouchers, the Chair asked if we are comfortable with them. I think the answer is "No, not necessarily". We think they raise interesting questions and they are something we look at. We are wary of intervening because some consumers really like these but they raise questions. The market will always evolve and change and as a consumer authority, we always have to evolve, see what is happening and make sure we consider what is ultimately in the best interests of consumers. We have not intervened or called for a big change or some intervention to prevent businesses from providing various forms of discounts, loyalty schemes, etc., but it is something we look at carefully and will continue to monitor.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I take pride in being as bipartisan as I can. I think it was Deputy Conor Sheehan of the Labour Party who raised that very important point, which is one that needs significant focus. As Chairperson of the committee, I have noticed that there have been approaches made to me on behalf of the companies. They are welcome and I will speak to everybody but it is interesting that there is an awareness there of the role we have in highlighting that issue. It is good that we have that conversation. I ask the witnesses to please look into that, which may be something we will discuss in the future.
I thank everybody most sincerely for their time and contributions. I thank our witnesses for being here. I thank the clerk and the committee team. We will meet in private session on Tuesday week and then on Wednesday, 19 November. We are off next Tuesday on account of the inauguration. Gabhaim buíochas libh.