Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 25 May 2023

Public Accounts Committee

Appropriation Accounts 2021
Vote 24 – Justice

Ms Oonagh McPhillips(Secretary General, Department of Justice) called and examined.

9:30 am

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Verona Murphy, Brady and O'Connor who are tied up with other business.

I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that does not happen. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with that.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by by Mr. Paul Southern, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning, we will engage with the Department of Justice to examine the following: Appropriation Accounts 2021; and Vote 24 - Justice. We are joined from the Department of Justice by Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General; Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, deputy Secretary General, civil pillar; Mr. John O'Callaghan, deputy Secretary General, criminal pillar; Mr. Aonghus O'Connor, principal officer, finance and procurement; and Mr. William O'Dwyer, principal officer, immigration service delivery. We are also joined from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform by Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan, principal officer. They are all very welcome.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The appropriation account for Vote 24 - Justice records gross expenditure of €467 million in 2021. This was an increase of approximately €70 million, or 17%, on the prior year. Expenditure under the Vote in 2021 was distributed across two broad expenditure programmes. This represents a significant restructuring of the Vote from prior years when there were five expenditure programmes.

Programme A is titled the criminal justice pillar and accounts for €316 million, representing approximately two-thirds of the Vote expenditure. The programme has 24 separate subheads and includes subheads providing grant assistance for a range of statutory agencies involved in aspects of the criminal justice system, such as the Criminal Assets Bureau and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. Other programme subheads provide for the expenses of units of the Department which do not have a separate legal existence, such as the Probation Service and Office of the State Pathologist. The largest single component of spending in the criminal justice programme relates to the provision of criminal legal aid, which amounted to €73 million in 2021.

Expenditure of €72 million was charged to programme A in 2021 in respect of Forensic Science Ireland, which is a unit of the Department. This included capital expenditure of just under €50 million on the ongoing project to construct a new forensic science laboratory at Backweston. The total projected cost of that project as at end 2021 was approximately €100 million.

Programme B is titled the civil justice pillar, and this accounted for the remaining €150 million, or just under one third of the gross expenditure in the year. This covers 15 subheads, including a number providing funding for statutory agencies, such as the Insolvency Service of Ireland, the Legal Aid Board and the Judicial Council. Other subheads provide financing for activities funded directly by the Department, such as the Coroner Service and the International Protection Appeals Tribunal. The Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service is also funded under this programme but the related expenditure is not presented separately from the Department’s core administration costs.

The committee may wish to consider whether separate reporting of the costs of that service would be useful. Receipts into the Vote totalled just over €90 million in the year. The largest receipts related to immigration registration fees, which amounted to €35.5 million, and grants from the European Union, amounting to €21 million. Nationality and citizenship certificate fees amounted to just under €10 million.

I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account for Vote 24. However, I drew attention to the disclosure in the statement on internal financial control of 18 contracts to the value of just over €8 million in 2021 which were not competitively procured and which were not compliant with the relevant procurement rules. The note explains that steps were under way to procure the services compliantly. The Accounting Officer may be able to provide an update in that regard.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy for that. Ms McPhillips has five minutes for her opening statement. I invite her to proceed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee to discuss the 2021 appropriation account for Vote 24. I am also grateful to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his team for their diligence and courtesy. I am joined by my colleagues, who have been introduced.

This Vote is one of six in the sector as a whole, and it funds a wide range of activity, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has outlined, both in the Department itself and in 20 statutory agencies and bodies. Together, there are more than 3,000 staff who have a nationwide footprint and who carry out a variety of important roles on behalf of the public. The Department also has a global reach, with almost 40 officers posted in 11 Irish embassies and missions across four continents and working on a broad range of immigration and international justice issues.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General has noted, the Vote was substantially realigned in 2021 to take account of the Department's major restructuring and the transfer of our integration and equality responsibilities to the newly expanded Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in 2020. These changes rationalised the structure and reduced the number of programmes from five to two, namely, criminal justice and civil justice.

During 2021, the impact of the pandemic continued to affect the work of the Department. This necessitated making arrangements to protect and maintain the public services we provide, introducing remote working, onboarding hundreds of new staff over the past three years and safeguarding and supporting all our colleagues, including those serving abroad, especially those who had to remain on the workplace front line and in public-facing roles throughout the pandemic. It also included supporting all the agencies under our remit to continue to deliver their essential services to the public.

I must also mention the ongoing impact of the war in Ukraine on our work throughout 2022 and this year. More than 82,000 Ukrainian people have now been granted temporary protection by our response team. This response has involved an incredible level of leadership, collegiality and commitment from our immigration staff. The team now includes more than 20 Ukrainian colleagues, who have been of great practical assistance and support to the team and of course to the applicants for temporary protection.

The Department's original net allocation for 2021, the year under examination, was approximately €403 million. This was broken down by gross expenditure of €476 million, less estimated appropriations-in-aid of €77 million, and included a capital carryover of €3.9 million relating to the construction of the new forensic science laboratory.

The Department's mission of working for a safe, fair and inclusive Ireland encompasses a wide range of responsibilities. Despite the unexpected challenges of 2021 and 2022, a significant body of work was progressed. Strengthening the safety of all communities remains a cross-government priority. In 2021, the Department established three local community safety partnerships, LCPs, on a pilot basis, namely, in Dublin's north inner city, in Longford and in Waterford, which will help to inform the roll-out of the new community safety model nationwide following the enactment of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill. The partnerships, which are led by very effective independent chairs, have done tremendous work to date. We also established an implementation process overseen by a very effective board to improve community safety and well-being in Drogheda. More recently, we adopted a similar approach in Cherry Orchard. The community safety policy is not a one-size-fits-all approach. It is a whole-of-government effort, designed to support people to be safe and feel safe in their own community. It very much relies on empowering communities, not just to identify issues that impact safety, but also to propose and, importantly, to prioritise solutions that will work for them. It also relies on resources being made available. The community safety innovation fund, established in April 2021, is a good example of this approach. For the first time, the fund allows proceeds of crime to be directed into community projects to support community safety. A total of €2 million was allocated in 2022 and the 2023 open call for community safety innovation funding closed just last week. This year will see €3 million from the proceeds of crime reinvested to support the development of community safety through innovative, local and national community-based initiatives.

The new youth justice strategy was published in 2021 to support young people and divert them away from crime. It runs to 2027 and it is complementary to the community safety strategy. The immediate priority of the strategy is to enhance engagement with children and young people who are most at risk of involvement in criminal activity. This is another area where the funding available has been substantially boosted, increasing from around €18 million in 2021 to a total of approximately €30 million this year, and this supports youth diversion projects all across the country.

Tackling the scourge of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, is a priority for the Government and the Department. We worked closely with victims and survivors to develop and publicise in a completely new way Coco's Law, the Harassment, Harmful Communication and Related Offences Act 2021, as well as a range of other measures aimed at combating gender-based violence. Members may have noticed the launch this week of a second awareness campaign highlighting to the public that threatening to share intimate images is also a criminal offence. Following a very detailed co-design process undertaken in partnership with civil society organisations, in June 2022 the Minister, Deputy McEntee, published Zero Tolerance, the third national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Since then, the Department has done a lot of work, again in close conjunction with the sector and colleagues across government, to design and develop the new DSGBV agency. This will be a permanent statutory entity, exclusively focussed on gender-based violence and abuse, which we aim to have in place from the start of next year.

As committee members will be aware, the third national strategy rightly focuses on increasing the number of refuge places in Ireland in line with the guidance in the Istanbul Convention, but its most significant, ambitious and hopefully most enduring feature is more fundamental: to change the underlying societal attitudes and culture where this type of harmful behaviour thrives.

Public awareness and education are central to supporting this change. I can assure the committee there is commitment to this from my colleagues across all Departments. Over the past few years, as the pandemic, and then the war in Ukraine, impacted the provision of immigration services to our customers, the staff of the Department have worked to develop innovative and people-centred solutions. I have already mentioned the work done to protect people fleeing from Ukraine. This period also saw the introduction of a scheme to regularise undocumented people living in Ireland. I am glad to say this once-off programme has so far enabled eligible applicants to remain and reside in the State lawfully, to regularise their residency status, thus allowing them to maximise their own potential and, importantly, that of their children.

A key change in the way we work, particularly in our public-facing operational areas, is the start of a programme of significant investment in our information management and technology systems. The schemes for both Ukraine and the undocumented operate on a completely paperless basis. In fact, more than 80% of immigration applications have now transitioned from paper-based to online applications. This provides for a significantly improved service to our customers and also supports the efficiency of the services. An entirely new immigration website was delivered in 2021 and is now available in the 12 most common languages of our customers. An overarching modernisation programme for immigration services has recently commenced. I hope to be in a position to report further significant further improvement in our service delivery in the coming years.

As members will be aware, the immigrant investor programme ran from 2012 until February of this year, when the Minister, Deputy Harris, obtained approval from the Government to close the programme to further new applications from 15 February 2023. The programme was established during a time of unprecedented economic difficulty to stimulate investment in Ireland that would be of strategic and public benefit to the State. In fairness, the programme did make a contribution to attracting inward investment and particularly job creation at a very difficult time. The State's position is now thankfully vastly different, and while the programme served a purpose in generating investment for job creation projects at a point in time, the nature of the programme shifted over recent years so that its purpose is no longer justified in the context of the risks. The risk environment has also changed, and Ireland is not alone in reconsidering the continued appropriateness of such programmes. It is appreciated that closure of the programme has given rise to many queries and concerns on the part of individuals and organisations with an interest in the programme.

We are committed to an orderly wind-down and the management of the closure in a way that is fair to all. I assure the committee that the Department is aware of the many organisations that are anxious to receive a decision and we will communicate in a timely manner with the individuals and organisations concerned. The programme's independent evaluation committee has requested that an analysis be undertaken to assist it in the task of ensuring that the closure of the programme is carried out in a manner that is consistent and fair to applicants. The committee is committed to more frequent and intense engagement to progress these matters. The patience of stakeholders is requested over the coming months while this work is completed. I can go into further detail if members require.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The lead speaker this morning for the committee is Deputy Dillon. The Deputy has 15 minutes.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests joining us this morning.

I will start by focusing on the recent fines imposed on airlines as a result of the lack of documentation checks carried out prior to arrivals in the State. The Immigration Act allows the Department to penalise airlines with a fine of up to €1,500. This week, the Business Postprovided details of over 958 such fines issued by the Garda to airlines out of Irish airports during 2022. My first question is, how many fines have been imposed on airlines for failure to check documentation in 2023?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Deputy. This is obviously a function of An Garda Síochána but I have some information on it. One hundred and seventy-five fines have been imposed so far in quarter 1 of 2023. Separate to that, almost €462,000 has been paid. Those two statements do not necessarily align because there is always a bit of a lag in fine payment.

It is worth noting that if a fine of €1,500 is imposed and not paid within 28 days, it doubles to €3,000. That is just an incentive to pay.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Which of the airlines are the biggest offenders?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have that information today - I am not sure if colleagues have - but we can provide it. We work very closely with the airlines. My colleagues in the border management unit engage with all the airlines in Dublin Airport. It is quite a productive engagement. We have met them, on our own and with the Garda, over the first quarter of this year in particular.

That engagement has been productive. It is not all about the punitive measure. It is about supporting them to make sure that their ground staff, on the ground in the departing airports, have sufficient training and so on. We have been supporting them on that.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are the main reasons for the increase in the number of individuals arriving without any documentation?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I really can only speculate about that. The world is certainly moving a lot more than it did in 2020 and 2021 in particular. In 2022, people started travelling again. We did as well. Certainly, far more people started travelling. The fact that people arrive and do not have documentation is not something that I have an awful lot of insight into. I am not sure if colleagues can comment on that.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department have figures for the number of individuals who have arrived without documentation in Irish airports?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do. I will get it for the Deputy, if that is okay. I do not have it in front of me at the minute but I will get it for the Deputy in a second, if that is okay. I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to respond.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. If the Department also has details of the airlines that are the biggest culprits in relation to failures of documentation checks, that would be very useful.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

I thank the Deputy. To jump in on that, the figures we have for last year show that 4,968 arrived without documentation. The figure so far, to end of April, this year is 1,010. Our analysis is that represents a reduction of approximately 40% so far this year.

In terms of what airlines they arrive from, we do not have those data. By virtue of the nature of the phenomenon, a person arrives at our border post and will probably be intent on both not identifying the documentation and not identifying his or her route and we do not have any hard or fast data on the arrivals.

More generally, while obviously this is a phenomenon which was disrupted when international travel was disrupted generally, it has long been a phenomenon that a certain proportion of the people who arrive will do so without proper documentation.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We all understand there is a greater movement of people across Europe and across the world generally but I am trying to establish what is the highest incident rate in relation to the point of entry here into Ireland that the Department sees.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Dublin Airport has the highest volume by far.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the checks that we do, how many individuals have been refused entry or have been deported in recent times?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

We can check those figures for the Deputy. The reality is that most people who are refused entry on the basis of not having documentation go on to apply for international protection and as a consequence do not then immediately return. Of course, some people, it is a smaller number of people and we can send the Deputy the specific figures which we probably have here to hand, will be refused entry on other grounds and then they will elect to go back to their point of departure.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can those who travel without documentation remain in the State through the international protection system?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Absolutely. That is the case under the current legislation. It has been the case under the 1996 legislation. It has long been the case.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the figures Mr. O'Sullivan quoted there, how many of the 4,968 have remained in the State through the international protection system?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

In rough terms, I understand approximately 98% of people who arrive without documentation seek asylum and are, therefore, admitted to the process.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the countries and the cities where we have a high frequency of inbound flights into Ireland, which countries and cities are of concern to the Department of Justice in relation to these undocumented?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It changes from time to time. It is quite a dynamic situation. The Garda - our colleagues in the Garda National Immigration Bureau - work closely with the border management unit and immigration service around that analysis so that they can respond. What happens is that if there is an airport of particular concern and you focus on that, it moves to another airport or another country. It can vary quite a lot. That is the nature of what the Garda is doing at the moment. It is basing its responses on an intelligence-led approach. The Garda would be better able to answer that than I would. I do not have responsibility for that.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department, in effect, no remit in terms of the allocation of resources across each of the airports?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Garda is acting in relation to that. They are very active on it. We work closely with the Garda in terms of developing the intelligence and analysing the information that is available to us, and we talk to our colleagues in immigration services across Europe on an ongoing basis and we work closely with the UK authorities in relation to this. It is very much a collegiate effort but the operational piece is for the Garda.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has there been an additional allocation of resources to combat this challenge?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In terms of Garda resources?

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

My understanding is that the Garda is active on this on an ongoing basis.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department increased budgets around the deployment of these specialists?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is no issue in relation to the budget for this.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I will move on to the second item around the immigrant investor programme. Ms McPhillips stated in her opening statement that the programme has made a really valuable contribution attracting inward investment and job creation. It has made an enormous contribution across many community-led projects across the country.

As Ms McPhillips can imagine, the Government decision to close the programme came as a bombshell for many who were looking to submit new applications from February of this year. Ms McPhillips stated in her opening remarks that the purpose of the immigrant investor programme was no longer justified in the context of risk. My first question is, how has the risk environment changed? Can Ms McPhillips expand on the types of risks identified that have led to the decision to close the programme?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Deputy. The immigrant investor programme was obviously established in 2012 but I think most people would recognise that everything changed globally in 2022. The invasion of Ukraine was a massive global shock and an event that had an impact. One of the impacts it had, in these islands, if you like, is the UK closed its scheme in early March 2022 in response to the building up of difficulties in Ukraine. That had a significant impact on the risk environment. The other marked change in 2022 was the number of applications. The actual application numbers really increased during 2022.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The question I am asking is what were the risks around the decision to close the programme.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was part of the risk, if you like.

If one looks at the numbers from 2012 to 2021, the highest of those years was 2019, which saw 443 applications. In 2022, that number was 1,316, which was three times the previous highest. That was a concern in the context of the global risk and in the context of our own scheme and our capacity to manage that risk.

What you are trying to do is to balance the objectives. As the Deputy noted, the scheme has had a positive impact. It is about whether that positive impact outweighs the significant risk. That was what we had to assess and our assessment was that it no longer balanced that risk for various public policy reasons. That view was shared by the EU and many of its institutions, including the European Commission, the Financial Action Task Force and the Council of Europe. That assessment was part of the whole.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Were any of the approved applications later rescinded by the Department on review?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy is asking about the applications up to that point in time. What would happen is they would not be renewed.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If they were initially approved, would the Department subsequently have rejected any applications on further review?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I might ask Mr. O'Dwyer, who is more expert in this area, to come in.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many applications were refused on subsequent review?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have that information and Mr. O'Dwyer will not have it either. That is because the immigration permission that is granted is a stamp 4, which is the most valuable stamp. It just goes into the pool of stamp 4s, so we do not differentiate between the immigrant investors and anyone else who would get a stamp 4. I think that is correct. I will ask Mr. O'Dwyer to come in just in case I am mistaken.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I thank the Deputy. What Ms McPhillips said is correct. The application is fundamentally about the investor. Once the investor is approved, he or she is given residence permission for two years on the basis of stamp 4. That is subject to review and is then renewed for another three years and subsequently for five years after that. Since the start of the scheme in 2012, there have been 1,788 investors approved to date.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many were rejected on subsequent review? What was the reason for the rejection?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I am not aware that any have been rejected. To give more context------

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time constraints.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

If I could add to that, as Mr. O'Dwyer said, the scheme is about the individual investors but in looking at the operation of the scheme as a whole, we looked at it cumulatively and considered the effect over time.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was the average investment from the immigrant investor programme in 2021 and 2022, and the activities during 2023?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I can give the Deputy the value by sector. Did the Deputy ask about 2022?

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

There were 306 approved applications in that year. That was an investment of €205 million.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was that for 2022?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

That is correct.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the collection of fees, how much has the Department collected?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

The fee charged is €1,500. Since the start of the scheme in 2012, we would probably have taken close to €7 million in fees.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The number for 2022 was €1.9 million in fees.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many applications were received in 2023 prior to the closure?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

We reckon that number is 1,350. As the Secretary General said, we are still going through-----

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That number is 1,350.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

That is right. We are still going through the process of examining those so that is a provisional figure.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The total since the inception of the programme in 2012 is 1,788.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

That is the amount of approved investors.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Some 1,300 is the current amount.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is right.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

We would have more than that on hand in terms of applications. It is closer to 3,000, we reckon. As the committee can see, a rather large number of applications were received in a short period of time. As the Secretary General said, it will take a few months to work through the issues and to examine the applications in detail. We have a high level of provisional-----

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many applications were received after the closure date in February 2023?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Is that the 1,350 figure?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

That is correct. That is the figure.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is more than the whole of last year.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department estimated the potential investment associated with those 1,350 applications?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have not had the opportunity to examine most of them as yet.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What has been the cumulative investment for the current approved applications under the international investor programme?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

The figure is approximately €1.16 billion.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The number I have is €1.2 billion to the end of 2022.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our guests. I have many questions to ask, which is always an indication of the wide range of work that a Department carries out. To follow on from the point Deputy Dillon was probing, our guests indicated that Dublin Airport was the principal point at which international protection is requested. Do our guests have a percentage of cases where international protection was requested other than at ports? We obviously have ports and airports. We have the shores of the island and we also have the jurisdictional border on the island. All of those are points of entry to the State. What percentage of people claim international protection at ports or airports and what percentage claim it elsewhere?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will get those figures for the Deputy. Obviously, it changes from month to month. What I said to Deputy Dillon, and forgive me if I misspoke, was that the largest volume of travellers into the country comes through Dublin Airport. The other location where asylum is sought is in our office in Lower Mount Street, where people turn up. Some people come through the airport and go to Lower Mount Street but others come from elsewhere.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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If I recall correctly, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, or certainly the international protection accommodation service, IPAS, through briefings with different members, have indicated that the figure for those who apply for international protection at locations other than ports and airports could be as high as 40%, 50% or 60%.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It varies, but the number is high.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That would mean that a significant number of people seeking international protection are not seeking it through airports or ports.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

A large proportion seek international protection in Dublin Airport and a large proportion seek it in Lower Mount Street. Those are the two main locations.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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If somebody does not seek international protection at an airport or port, it is likely he or she has entered the State by a means other than an airport or port.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is not definite. Somebody might come in through the airport and then come to Lower Mount Street. That happens. The Deputy is correct, however, that people come into the State by other means.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Thankfully, we do not see our shores teeming with people who are washing up on this island, as we did see on some Mediterranean islands. The next potential entry point is the jurisdictional border with the United Kingdom. It is obviously an open border and nobody in this House would even suggest it should be anything other than that. The UK's policy has a significant impact on the way we manage international protection. Would our guests accept that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We recognise that. We work very closely with our UK colleagues and have done so during the entirety of the time I have been in the Department. That has intensified over the past decade. There is a common travel area forum that we host jointly with the UK. We consider all of these issues, which are issues for them as well as us. We work closely with the UK and share a lot of intelligence and information. We certainly recognise-----

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any evidence that the UK's decision to change the way it wishes to treat international protection has created an internal flow within the common travel area?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not sure I would say there is evidence to that effect. It certainly does not seem to have had an impact on the UK's numbers. Its numbers are up, in fact.

One would imagine it must have some effect. Even the policy direction has some effect. It is hard to quantify, however. I would say it is one of a number of factors.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The question is about whether the Irish international protection services are considering applications that previously might have been registered for international protection in the United Kingdom outside the EU.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do see that phenomenon. As part of the information we exchange with the UK, we are able to identify that and vice versa.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Would Ms McPhillips think that is a significant number?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not familiar with the detail. I do not know whether Mr. O'Sullivan has that information.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

No. It has always been recognised that a small number of people in both directions make irregular use of the common travel area. Sometimes, the UK may take the view that there are more heading their way and sometimes we might take the view that there are more heading our way. I do not think we have a concern that a significant proportion of our applications have already been through some process in the UK.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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On that point, for those who present without documents, do we see a higher proportion in the non-important ports? In other words, is there a possibility that somebody would make an application under international protection in the UK system and then make an application under the Irish system without documentation?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Under our arrangements, we fingerprint everyone who applies. Therefore, we are obviously in a position, regardless of whether there is documentation, to search the Eurodac database, to exchange information with our UK colleagues or to use the Schengen information system.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is an important point. Anybody who makes an application under the Irish system, their fingerprints are taken-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Absolutely.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----and those fingerprints can be compared with previous applications made in the UK.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

They absolutely can, yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

An arrangement was made post Brexit to continue that entire data exchange.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is a very important point. I had not intended to spend so much time on that-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is fine.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it is important to say that. When we question the system, I do not think anybody is suggesting that Ireland should not live up to its international protection obligations or that we should not support people who are fleeing conflict and discrimination around the world.

I will turn to the area-based interventions. Ms McPhillips spoke about the north-east inner city model, which is one name for it. There is also Greentown and several different interventions.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I should thank the Department for the increased funding, which the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, announced. There are eight additional youth workers in Finglas, for example, under the youth justice programme, which is incredibly important. I was previously involved with the Kilmore West Youth Project as chair. The youth justice programme is fantastic. It makes a real difference in people's lives. The area-based initiatives have been a bit sporadic in how they have been rolled out. The Department of the Taoiseach has been trying to put some structure on that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is right.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Let me tell Ms McPhillips about the journey we made in Ballymun. In 2017, we wrote to the then Taoiseach asking for a north inner city model in our community. It was recommended that we would have a local authority-led intervention. In 2019, when I was Lord Mayor, I commissioned with the city council a report entitled Ballymun – A Brighter Future: A Plan to Tackle the Underlying Causes of Addiction and Crime and to Tackle Open Drug Dealing, which was written by Mr. Andrew Montague. It is a really strong report.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, it is a great report.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In 2021, that was presented to the Department of the Taoiseach. In 2022, the Taoiseach engaged very extensively with different groups in Ballymun and committed to funding that. We still do not have in place the senior officials group, which is the necessary element of it. Since then, Cherry Orchard has had access to that senior official group because of a specific incident that happened in that community. Darndale has a different model in operation. I was happy to wait for the sustainable model because that is important. As much as I can advocate for Ballymun, Finglas has many of the same arguments, and there are other communities. With Ballymun having followed all the processes recommended by national government and having engaged fully, it is time that either the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Justice appointed that senior officials group. The question is about whether that is a political decision or one that will be made by Ms McPhillips's Department, because I understand that Cherry Orchard was triggered by the Department of Justice, or by Dublin City Council.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As the Deputy said, there are different models in place. The Darndale model to which he referred is led by the city council. It has kind of grown up a little bit like Topsy with different things. What we have tried to do is align them. They all have the characteristics of community safety in that they are whole-of-government approaches and so forth, and they have been very successful to date.

I completely understand what the Deputy is saying about Ballymun. What we are trying to do at the moment is evaluate the projects that are in being. As the Deputy referenced, there are also the two Greentown projects, which form part of this anonymously. I also referenced Drogheda. Much evidence is being gathered and there is certainly a good way forward in terms of what works and what the structure should be and so forth. I hear entirely what the Deputy is saying about Ballymun.

Fundamentally, it is a political decision but it is something we are leaning into in terms of trying to make sure we are not doing damage, doing different things in different places or reinventing the wheel where something is working well. I am happy to talk to the Deputy about that.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the structure; it has to have some degree of agility on the ground because it has to respond to local needs. There has to be a sustainable intervention. We cannot have officials from the Department of the Taoiseach going to every community in the country. That is not a sustainable model. We have put in the work in Ballymun, however. We have done it in the way recommended by the Government. I hope Ms McPhillips hears me, but I hope she also hears the frustration.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do.

Photo of Paul McAuliffePaul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Within the Department, regardless of which Ministers are in place or whatever, I would appreciate her support in ensuring that is executed because it is really needed. We also need it rolled out in other communities around the country as well.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely. In terms of the overall legislative structure, obviously, the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023, which we should have given a shorter title, is before the Houses at the moment. That will set up the local community partnerships. Hopefully, that will be enacted by the end of the year and then we can move forward to roll it out nationwide. I am happy to talk to the Deputy in the meantime, however.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy McAuliffe. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will start with the international investor programme. What prompted the review in 2019? Can Ms McPhillips detail the vulnerabilities that were identified?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Deputy. Since the programme was established, it has been reviewed on a number of occasions. The Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service did a report in 2017 and then our own internal audit unit did a review around 2018 or 2019. We then commissioned an external review that was done in two phases. That has a number of recommendations in it, some of which have been implemented and on some of which we were waiting for the overall policy decision.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who carried that out?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We commissioned external consultants Ernst & Young.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. That was internal to the Department.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It was while the deliberative process was ongoing. We are actually intending to publish it. I would have hoped to publish it before today, to be honest, but we will get it out and I will send a copy to the committee in the next couple of weeks.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. Obviously, the European Commission, the Council of Europe and the OECD cited concerns with this. What engagement was there? Did they direct the Department? Obviously, it was terminated very suddenly. There are still a residual number of cases going through. Essentially, were we directed to close it down?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No. In fact, none of the external international bodies expressed specific concern about our scheme. However, they expressed concern about the schemes in general, and these types of programmes in general, and their overall effect. They did not say, "You must do this in Ireland". In fact, we would be satisfied that we were running it to the best of our ability and with a reasonable degree of governance and so forth.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Completely over-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

What changed in 2022 was that volume was one of the contributing factors to the decision. The volume became really quite unmanageable in 2022. It will take us quite a long time to work through the volume of what came in during 2022 and the volume of what has come in since the scheme.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can Ms McPhillips talk us through what impacts they identified with schemes like this?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sure. There was an overall public policy concern. They highlighted the risk environment and the vulnerabilities in terms of-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What does Ms McPhillips mean by "the risk environment"? Obviously, there will be labels, but what does it mean?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I referenced earlier that the overall global risk environment changed so significantly in 2022 with the invasion of Ukraine. We saw the impact on the city of London, which had a very similar programme. It was directed very much at inward investment. The UK changed theirs-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is this about particular nationalities?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Certainly, ours is dominated by a particular nationality. Other countries have different patterns. The UK one was dominated by a particular nationality as well. They have different patterns depending on where they are. I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to come in on the Deputy's question about the recommendations in the review report.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could this be done quickly as I have very limited time?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Not specific to our programme, but what has emerged from a lot of international commentary on these schemes is that there inherent risks. There are risks of money laundering, the evasion of sanctions, terrorist financing, the inappropriate use of funds and tax evasion. We have a wide range of measures in place to prevent this being the case in our programme. As the programme and the number of applications grow, the extent to which we have to scale up our capacity to prevent this from happening also grows. This is in the context of a very disrupted international environment, with more sanctions in play internationally and growing concern about this.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some of the issues Mr. O'Sullivan has identified may well have been identified as vulnerabilities where the actual risks materialise.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Certainly, the UK Home Office did a very detailed look-back on its programme and identified instances in which this type of activity had featured. It was part of its decision-making.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the review done by the Department similar to the review done in the UK? Have we done this type of analysis?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It was very much of a different type. We identified governance arrangements that could be put in place and access to various international databases that could be checked. I will ask Mr. O'Dwyer, who heads the initiative, to speak on this.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I thank the Deputy. There is a series of checks that we carry out on particular investors regarding money-laundering and the public exposure of individuals. Another aspect of carrying out these checks is that given the volume of applications, it is difficult to identify risks that might be there in terms of public policy and the wider inherent risks in a scheme such as this. As my colleagues stated, these are the concerns expressed by the OECD, the Council of Europe and the European Commission.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Obviously, there are positives in terms of investments. There are also questions about some of the investments. If somebody bought a house in Dublin, for example, the value of property is such that it would not take much to qualify for the upper threshold. Was this a consideration about the investments themselves? There are good investments and I want to say that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That was not the type of investment included. We do not allow investment in property under the scheme. There is a list of the areas the investment has to be in, including an enterprise that creates jobs or an endowment to a voluntary body or a sporting body. This is a different thing.

With regard to the risks identified by various external international bodies, the OECD concentrated on the tax issue, tax evasion and the scope for anti-money laundering. The EU's focus was very much on access to the Schengen area and the security concerns.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to move on to another issue. I saw an article in one of the tabloids today, namely, The Mirror, the photograph accompanying which showed gardaí on patrol in Disneyland in Paris. I understand there can be deployments, and very understandably so, where there is international co-operation. Would the Department be asked for sanction for this or is it entirely up to the Garda Commissioner to decide where resources are deployed? There are obviously issues if gardaí are doing general policing in another jurisdiction.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It has to be the subject of a Government decision, as far as I am aware, when we deploy abroad. Obviously, it is a bilateral arrangement between police forces. In recent years, including preceding the pandemic, we found it useful to have a very small number of gardaí deployed to holiday areas in France to assist tourists with crime incidents and vice versa. I met the French ambassador recently and the French authorities find it very useful. There is a reciprocal arrangement.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Do we see police here from other jurisdictions in uniform?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, in areas of high tourist activity. They work closely with the locals. It is mainly an issue with language. It assists in situations where there can be difficulties. It is not a huge number of gardaí.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are very short of gardaí, and the idea that we would deploy them abroad-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a matter for the Commissioner's judgment as to whether this is of value. Obviously, he would have regard to those pressures.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask about the recruitment of gardaí and the age limit. Where did it come from? The maximum age for recruits is 35.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It was set a number of years ago. I cannot remember exactly when it was set. It has been in being for quite a long time. I am conscious there is a matter in relation to this before the courts.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I wonder why it is before the courts, to be perfectly honest.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is a High Court case at the moment.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is another matter. I have come across people from other jurisdictions who have returned here to live having emigrated for a time. They were police officers in other jurisdictions and have come back with immense experience. It is shocking that we cannot avail of it at a time when we are struggling to recruit. I will not press the issue because, as Ms McPhillips said, there is a case before the courts.

I have a question on the immigrant investor programme. Is it known how many people have accompanied successful applicants? Are they family members? Is there a breakdown on this? Did it form part of the review done in 2019 or subsequent reviews?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I understand that typically there is an accompanying spouse and one child.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They are always related.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, it is a family unit.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to touch on the immigrant investor programme, or cash for visas or golden visas as it was more widely known. It is fair to say it was controversial from the very start. It is also fair to say there were some benefits for community-led projects in particular. My question is about oversight and transparency. The Department was tasked with approving the scheme and with oversight of the scheme. Some documents were required. Will the Department confirm that three documents in particular were received from each and every individual involved in the scheme? These documents are proof of the legally required minimum wealth of €2 million, a statement of character from the policing authority in the person's home region and a due diligence report from a reputable risk management agency. Did the Department receive copies of these documents from each applicant?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I understand that we did. There was a change in 2019 and the risk profile was adjusted. There was a huge volume of applications after that and all of the documents had to be received before anything could approved.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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From every single applicant.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Prior to 2019-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The bulk of applications before 2019 also had them.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get figures on this just to confirm it? Did the Department receive the documents, or request and receive them, prior to or after approving the visa?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. O'Connor to come in.

O

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:Predominantly, the applications had those documents embedded. If we were happy with the application on first review but those documents were missing they would be requested if they had not been provided.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am speaking about these three documents.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

Yes.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department go ahead with anything without receipt of these three documents from each applicant?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

The assessment of the €2 million would definitely have been required at all times because we view that as protection of the actual applicant as much as ourselves because, in America, people had lost financially so we wanted to make sure that the statement of character would have been requested in all cases. I cannot say that with 100% certainty about every single one of them but we had a compliance unit within the immigrant investor programme, IIP, unit that would have checked subsequently, and I think there was not-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Subsequently, after the visa was granted?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

No. Before the visa was granted, they would have been checked. There could be human error or whatever. There would have been a second check at the two-year and three-year stages but after 2019, those documents were mandatory. That equates to the vast majority of people.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why were they mandatory after 2019?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

As the Secretary General has pointed out, throughout 2017, 2018 and 2019, we had been getting various reports. We had the-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So it was fairly lax up until that?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

No, certainly not.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, definitely not.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

But there is always learning-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Prior to it being mandatory, did the witnesses look for that basic proof and evidence for applicants applying for the scheme?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

The one I raise is due diligence. We brought in a heightened level of due diligence that would not have been in any other scheme in 2019. In fact, we implemented the equivalent of 2021's anti-money laundering measures in 2019, which was a progressive move on our part. That is why I am saying that we continuously recalibrated the actual risk.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I wanted to touch on one scheme in particular, which I think was the Huawen scheme. The sole broker there was Kai Dai. It is in the public domain. Many questions need to be asked about it. This comes back to due diligence, oversight and that sort of thing. The Department approved that particular scheme in 2018. It was to consist of an investment of €8 million in the Nuremore Hotel and €2 million for refurbishment. It was to include the Fairways Hotel in Dundalk, which was to be purchased for €5 million, with €2 million for refurbishment. It included phase 1 of the build of Carnbeg holiday village. None of that actually happened. The Nuremore Hotel was approved in 2018 but it was not purchased until 2020. The staff had lost their jobs at that stage. Bills were not paid. Staff are currently not being paid. The witnesses can correct me if the figure I have is incorrect. I think the Huawen Foundation received €43.5 million. Can the witnesses confirm whether that was actually spent on the scheme?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry, Chair, I am not in a position to deal with individual cases. I do not think it would be appropriate to deal with individual cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is in the public domain, in fairness.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the situation regarding individual cases but what the Deputy is saying is that at least eight or nine newspaper articles covered this. Insofar as the information is in the public domain, if Ms McPhillips feels she can answer it, I think it would be appreciated.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have information on the individual investments.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there anyone here who has?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, because our relationship is with the investor. The investor applies for an immigration permission. The actual project is not something that applies for approval from the Department. It forms part of the application but the investor has the relationship with us. I cannot comment on the individual.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There were a number of exchanges between the Department and Mr. Dai.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not aware of them.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Correspondence was flagged up over the years.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have copies of them to hand.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We were talking about the benefits of the scheme. Some €43.5 million was invested in the scheme and the scheme never happened.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not in a position to comment on it, Deputy. Sorry.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Would Mr. O'Dwyer know anything about this? Where did the €43 million go?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I can get that information for the Deputy. I think she is looking for the number and level of investment granted under IIP. Could she confirm that? I would also be cautious here because I think this is the subject of High Court proceedings.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I think those are litigation proceedings. Are there criminal proceedings?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

Liquidation is taking place.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Litigation. Are there criminal proceedings at the minute?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I am not aware of that but I just do not know.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are litigation proceedings. The hotel that was to be part of the investment has now gone into liquidation and people have lost their jobs. Where was the oversight? Some €43 million was committed to be invested. Investors got their golden visas and the investments disappeared. At what stage does the Department step in? It approved the scheme. The investors never followed through. Millions disappeared.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

As the Secretary General said, we approve that the investor and the project the investor is investing in are compliant with IIP objectives. The individual management of projects is not something we engage with.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who would be tasked with that if not the Department of Justice?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

If there are issues with the misuse of funds in terms of IIP, we would examine that, but in this particular case-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Correspondence was sent and red flags were raised. I am just trying to find out-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Any project in the country or any investment is subject to the normal regulatory oversight of any applicable bodies. If companies are in difficulty, though I am not talking about any specific company, to be clear, they are not subject to supervision on an ongoing basis.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about supervision. I am talking about-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They are subject to any regulator that is in place.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They got their golden visa, having committed to invest. In this particular scheme, €40-odd million was promised to be invested. That money disappeared. Red flags were raised with the Department. We do not know where that money has gone and the Secretary General does not seem to know where that money has gone. She seems to think it is not the Department's responsibility to follow up. It can grant the golden visa but does not follow up on the investment.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy referenced-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do any of the witnesses know where the money has gone for that scheme which the Department approved?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy referenced herself that this is the subject of litigation.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, liquidation proceedings. There are no criminal proceedings. We just had that confirmed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, sorry, we did not confirm anything. We know nothing of criminal proceedings or-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked if there were criminal proceedings and Mr. O'Dwyer said "No".

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do not know. He said he did not know.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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None of us are aware of any criminal proceedings. Liquidation proceedings are going on.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is litigation. It is before the courts.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but I am talking about the €43 million promised in that scheme. The Department approved the golden visas. Now the money has disappeared, the investment has gone and the witnesses do not seem to know where it has gone and take no responsibility whatsoever for it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not in a position to confirm what the Deputy is saying. I am not sure whether that is the case or not and I would not like it to be taken that I am agreeing with what the Deputy is positing. This is a good indication of the risk environment I am talking about.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That was flagged up in the UK, which was first to close the scheme, then maybe it was brought to the Department's attention. What I am talking about in this particular scheme, there were red-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

If I could just continue to-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, we are talking about a hell of a lot of money and about residency being granted to people following the promise of investing. They did not invest. Huge sums of money, running into millions of euro, that was supposed to be invested in this country has disappeared. Ms McPhillips said earlier that no applications were rescinded, yet this was flagged up with the Department several years ago.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry Deputy, as I have said, the Department is not in a position and is not required to supervise on an ongoing basis.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So who does?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The relevant regulatory authorities.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Department carries out a review of applications every two years.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Investors can be subject to an extension of their permissions.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What happened with this one?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not in a position to deal with individual cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So nothing happened that we know of.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not in a position to deal with individual cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In circumstances similar to this case where a review is carried out, what are the consequences? What are the consequences if the investment disappears?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not want to refer to a specific case but-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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She is asking about what would happen-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about a similar case.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

More generally, if there are issues in relation to the regulatory environment or criminal issues, we would co-operate and make discovery to any other oversight body, whether An Garda Síochána, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement or the Workplace Relations Commission, in a case-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Just one final question-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That would be subject to discovery in the normal way. To flag the overall issue and not refer to any specific case, this highlights the issue for the Department. The programme was being run and in the vast majority of cases, the investments were sound but it gave the impression the projects had some authorisation from the Department of Justice. Neither was that our role or function and nor did we do that. That was a risk for us and for the country as a whole. It gave the impression these had some kind of blessing from the Government, which they did not.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is an immigrant investor programme unit. Is that within the Department? It is referred to in the document.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is, right. After that discussion, I am not clear who monitors it. It is helpful for the committee to know this.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The programme is for the investor. The investor is the applicant. We grant the investor an immigration permission and the investor is subject to the review.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, say that to me again.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The investor is subject to the review, not the project, and whether they have been of good character.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The investor or their agent.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, we have no relationship with the agent.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If an agent gathers €30 million or €50 million off 25 or 30 investors, there is no one monitoring that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have no relationship with the agent and do not require people to use agents.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks for clarifying that.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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This raises questions about the immigrant investor programme. I am glad the programme has concluded and has been wound up.

In response to one of Deputy Dillon’s questions, it was stated that in 2022, there was a marked increase in applications, which rose to 1,316. The obvious question, particularly in terms of security concerns, is whether we have geographic information on where those applications came from.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have a breakdown for 2022 in particular but have an overall breakdown. It shows 94% of applications are from China. I have a figure of a total of 1,613, which was the number of approved applications at one stage, of which 1,500 were from China, 31 from the United States, 12 from Vietnam and 59 from the rest of the world.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It would be interesting if the Department could furnish the committee with particulars for 2022. Clearly, a specific concern arose in 2022 that led to a response.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I referred earlier to the volume. I do not think there was a big difference in terms of the countries involved but I do not have the breakdown.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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In terms of identifying security risks, I imagine geographic characteristics would come into the thinking.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Proportionality is an issue. The dominance of any particular country would be of concern and that is a feature of the issues raised by the international bodies.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The Department stated 950 applications were received in 2023, which seems an extraordinary figure.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Actually, it is 1,350.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Wow.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is changing.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Yes, the figure of 950 is what I have in front of me but it is over 1,300. We had a watershed in February, when we announced the scheme's closure. How many arrived before that and how many after? Are any applications received after the closure of the scheme being considered? Have any been approved?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

None of them have been considered or approved yet. Does Mr. O’Dwyer have the breakdown of before or after?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

We said in terms of the closure that existing projects and applications on hand will be dealt with and completed. There was a number of projects on which we had had substantial engagement. They were not quite ready but close to ready. We agreed to give them time to complete their work.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Does that figure of 1,350 applications mean that all of them were received before 15 February or have they still come into the consideration process because they were-----

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

The sheer volume of applications on hand means we have done a global, provisional overview of what is on the stocks but still have to go into the detail of the applications. It will take a number of months before we get a clear picture of the detail of the applications. The closure was 5.15 p.m. on 15 February. That was the deadline.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is an astonishing number for so early in the year.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have roughly 3,000 on hand at the moment.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Roughly 3,000 on hand, all told. I am sure there are more questions to be asked there but I have many other things I need to get to.

I have a question about international protection, the growth in staffing in particular and the impact that has had on processing times. The Minister, Deputy Harris, spoke on this in the Dáil Chamber on Tuesday. We have gone from 206 staff to 299 and want to get to 400. Doubling of staff involves both a financial outlay and a huge human resources outlay, in that I assume all of those staff need to be trained and brought up to speed. The first obvious question is whether we are putting enough resources into upskilling and training to get them on board as quickly as possible. That is probably a simple yes-no answer.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. It is quite a detailed answer, though, because we work closely with the UNHCR training and people are not allowed to make a decision until they have received that training. We also do resilience training and trauma-informed practice training as much as we can. It is difficult work and they need to be able to assimilate that. We are very happy with the quality of the staff we have. They are doing well. We have also taken the opportunity to redeploy staff from across the immigration service into the International Protection Office, IPO, because it is good to have a blend of new and experienced people. When you are trying to ramp up quickly, it can be tricky if you have a bunch of new people and nobody with experience. We have doubled it over the past year or so and want to add just over another 100. Maintaining that trajectory will be a real challenge in the current employment market but we are prioritising that area for staffing. It has to be said it is at a cost to other areas of the Department, including immigration.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I had a question to ask about the naturalisation of minors. Probably in common with many others here, I have had representations from people whose parents have been naturalised and are working in the health system. In this case, the youngest child is an Irish citizen. We have massive delays. A response I got to a parliamentary question stated it was 19 to 23 months for a straightforward application to be processed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is getting better. Was that very recent?

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It was not long ago that I last asked that question. I do not have the date.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will ask Mr. O’Sullivan to come in on that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

As an unfortunate by-product of the impact of restrictions on our building use and the fact our systems are paper-based, we have built up a backlog of cases in the citizenship area. The median processing time is about 19 months. Minors, particularly those whose family have already been naturalised, are a particular category. We have a programme this year of trying to break the back of that backlog. We have a particular programme in place around naturalising minors because they are straightforward cases.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It ought to be and yet they are taking a long time.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

It is more about how we muster our resources and take a focused approach on batches of cases. We have maybe 2,000 or 3,000 minors who we intend to try to push through the system this year as part of an overall programme of work, along with other reforms and things we are doing, including with technology, to try to get ourselves back on track after that Covid challenge.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have digressed a bit, which is my own fault. I wish to return to the international protection issue. We have seen significant numbers of extra staff coming in. I feel strongly, probably in common with many other people, that if somebody arrives here and makes an international protection and asylum application, that should be processed as quickly as possible, whatever the answer will be at the end of the process. In my teaching career, I was dealing with parents and children who had been waiting for seven or eight years for a decision. That is just inhumane. We are not living up to our international duties. What is the average turnaround time now? Is it coming down? What is the trajectory?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity. It is really important to note that is no longer the case. Some 2% of applications are waiting more than two years and 0.2% are waiting more than five years. That is for a first-instance decision. That is a very significant change over the last year or so. Therefore, 98% are waiting less than two years. It is important to say that. While it certainly was the case that there were huge delays in the past, that is being addressed. The International Protection Office, IPO, made twice as many decisions last year as it did in 2021. There is a real impact in terms of resources but also in terms of doing things differently.

We did an end-to-end review of the process and listened to our customers in terms of their experiences. The Deputy is absolutely right; speeding up the process is key. Every review we have ever done of asylum and international protection says that is the key to everything. Going back to the Dr. Bryan McMahon report in 2014 or 2015, that is what that report said and it is what Dr. Catherine Day said. That is what our customers said to us in the end-to-end review as well so that is what we are doing at the moment. The volume of decisions that have been made-----

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I want to squeeze in one more topic.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sure. I apologise.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am looking at the clock and it is running down on me. I want to ask a question about county registrars. I tabled a couple of parliamentary questions on this matter. The clue is in the name. We should have at least 26 country registrars. I am of the view that the work they do is effective. We know their role in the count centres, which is where most politicians run into a county registrar. They also have important roles in triaging court cases. They are very effective in speeding up the utilisation of our courts system. There was a retrenchment in their number in the financial downturn. We reduced the number to 16 and increased it again to 17. We only have 14 of those positions filled as per the latest information I have. I cannot see how these positions would be an enormous cost in the greater context of a departmental spend. Does Ms McPhillips have a view on the value-for-money proposition a county registrar represents?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not really have a view on the value for money. They are quite senior officials.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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They are.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They are not paid from our Vote. They are appointed by the Minister and paid from the Courts Service Vote. Therefore, it does not arise in terms of our expenditure. The reduction was very much based on the workload and the workload of county registrars was shrinking at that time. We would be advised by the Courts Service, by and large, in terms of the volume. The review of civil law by Mr. Justice Peter Kelly identified enhanced roles for county registrars, as the Deputy said, in terms of case processing, managing case lists and so forth. We would be advised by the Courts Service on what the requirements are. Their other functions are impacted by other developments as well in terms of their electoral functions and so forth.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We no longer have one in each county.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No. Some of them are doubled up.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We have 17.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The issue has certainly been raised with me. A constituent asked me a question about that approximately one year ago. There seem to be gaps in the system. Is there a plan to increase that number from 14?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is no gap as I understand it.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some of them cover two counties.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Exactly.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The number is 14 at the minute. Is there any plan to increase the number?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There are a number of vacancies. Certainly, there is a recruitment competition or maybe two ongoing. I think a couple of appointments are pending.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many is it planned to have?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think 17 is probably the agreed number at the moment.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Seventeen have been sanctioned and there are three vacancies. We have 14 serving as per the response to my most recent parliamentary question.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, and open competitions were held for those so I expect appointments are very imminent.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips. We will take a break and resume in ten minutes sharp.

Sitting suspended at 10.55 a.m. and resumed at 11.06 a.m.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The next member to contribute is Deputy Colm Burke.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. I thank all the officials present from the Department of Justice. I very much appreciate the presentation and the work they are doing. I have a question about the new women's prison in Limerick. I understand it is completed but not open. Will the officials clarify when it is likely to open, in view of the fact it has been fully complete for some time?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The director general of the Prison Service is keen to open as soon as possible. My understanding is it will be July.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It will be July of this year.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move to an issue I have raised a number of times on missing persons and the lack of co-ordination of information. I am aware the coroners have assembled a list of 44 unidentified sets of remains. In 2019, I proposed there be a central person appointed to oversee this. Now we have got some work done on this, is the Department going to do further work in the form of having far more co-ordination between the Garda, the coroners, the hospitals etc.? Is that likely to be considered by the Department?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I acknowledge the Deputy's role in highlighting this in the past. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, announced last year we would collate this data set. We have worked closely with the coroners. Forensic Science Ireland is obviously the other key element, along with the Garda missing persons unit, in compiling and publishing the information. It is a good first step and I agree it is a first step. We need to keep iterating on this. We have co-ordinated it in the Department. We have worked closely with the Garda missing persons unit, which is another key area. I spoke to the Commissioner recently about the Garda doing more in this space as well. There is very much an appetite to keep building on the groundwork that has been done up to this point.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I move the legal aid system. A review was carried out entitled Criminal Legal Aid: Overview of current system and potential lessons from an international comparison. I think there were seven recommendations in that. Have they been implemented? If not, when are they going to be?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The criminal legal aid system is something we keep under review on an ongoing basis because it obviously is a big chunk of the Vote. As the provision of legal aid is obviously a constitutional right, we constantly try to iterate it. The general scheme of a forthcoming Bill will go to Government shortly that will revise the scheme and place it with the Legal Aid Board for ongoing administration on a day-to-day basis. That Bill will take the opportunity to provide for better oversight and improved accountability for the expenditure. We do what we can on an ongoing basis on an administrative basis. Some of it is by regulation as well and the regulations have been revised and reviewed from time to time. The actual Bill will make a significant change.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There have been complaints by the legal profession in relation to-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The fees.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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-----how the remuneration they are receiving was reduced drastically back in 2008 or 2009-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is right.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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-----and has not been reviewed. Where are we with that review now?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Department has engaged with the Bar Council and the Law Society on this but the actual decision on restoring the fees would be a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Where are we with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Department is considering the matter at the moment.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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How long is the matter with the Department?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is probably quite some time.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Does the Secretary General mean more than six or 12 months?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry, Deputy. I understand that the matter has been raised with us since 2018. We have been talking to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for some time. I am certainly aware that there are concerns in the profession and concerns on the effect low fees have on attracting people to the criminal Bar and criminal practice generally. So we have quite some concerns about it and we raise it on an ongoing with our colleagues.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are we likely to have a response on this matter?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Burke may wish to ask Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform questions about the review.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Chair.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the status of the review if the decision has been with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for some time?

Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan:

On the issue of barristers' fees and the precise fees that are paid, as the Secretary General set out, this issue has been ongoing for some time. The Minister for Justice exercised powers conferred on him under the Criminal Justice and (Legal Aid) Act 1962, and Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) (Amendment) Regulations 2009, 2010 and 2011 to reduce fees. There has been ongoing engagement between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Department of Justice and other stakeholders on this issue over some period of time. As the Secretary General set out, there is a number of initiatives under way, including the general scheme for the criminal legal aid Bill. There is also a criminal legal aid oversight committee, which the Department established in 2016.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, this issue has gone on for quite some time. We had a substantial reduction ten or 12 years ago but no increase in that period. We now have a concern where people are dropping out of the system and, therefore, we may run into problems. Are we talking about a timescale of the end of July, September or December? Surely we are entitled, and they are entitled, to have some kind of idea of the timescale when a decision can be made on this.

Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan:

As I set out, the issue of the fee that is paid is a matter for the Minister for Justice, with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I suppose the Department continues to engage with colleagues in the Department of Justice on this issue. In terms of the precise time, I cannot-----

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can we tie down a time on this thing? We are talking about a substantial reduction that occurred more than 12 years ago and nothing has moved since.

Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan:

I suppose the Department continues to engage with the Department of Justice on this issue.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If Mr. O'Callaghan is back next year will I get the same answer?

Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan:

The level of the fee is a matter for the Department of Justice. In terms of engagement with ourselves, we will engage with the Department of Justice, as appropriate. In terms of a timeline, I cannot give specifics on that.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I think Mr. O'Callaghan accepts that this issue needs to be resolved because it has dragged on for quite some time.

Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan:

There is ongoing engagement on the issue in terms of the appropriate fee level in the context of the operation of the services and, indeed, the administration of the scheme.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is the only area where there has been no change in 12 years.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In fairness, Mr. O'Callaghan has only recently arrived on the justice Vote. The engagement has been ongoing. There has been engagement at a ministerial level and I understand that will continue. We will certainly highlight the Deputy's concerns.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the roll-out of the forensic science laboratory near completion?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The building is complete. At the moment the process of accreditation is ongoing and it being a laboratory there is quite a detailed process of accreditation. I expect the laboratory to open in either late June or into July so the time is very near.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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As the Secretary General mentioned late June, does that mean additional staff must be recruited? Is there capacity in the new premises to take on additional staff?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We absolutely do, yes.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Some pathologists must regularly send samples abroad for analysis because they cannot get the work done in Ireland.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The FSI has been funded to recruit over the last couple of years in order to ramp up for the new environment. FSI has received a net increase of €1 million this year - a 7% increase - which would provide for 13 additional staff. Recruitment is ongoing.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is there a difference between the original estimate and the final cost of building the laboratory?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is slightly over. It is about 6% over which would take account of inflation over the last few years. By and large, it has been a very successful project and come in largely within budget apart from the inflationary aspects.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On the work that must be sent abroad at the moment, will all of that work now be done in a forensic science laboratory in Dublin?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not a science expert. My understanding is that over time we will ramp up into being a very holistic service. I know that the laboratory and its development is to the highest standard in Ireland. There are categories of laboratories and the FSI laboratory is at the higher end.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On the Prison Service, some prisons provide a hepatitis C treatment programme over a period of eight or 12 weeks. In some cases people would be taken to a hospital setting to attend an outpatient clinic and, therefore, there is a huge cost issue because prison office staff must accompany prisoners, etc. I understand there was programme to roll out the treatment within prisons. Is the programme now available in all prisons?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not know Deputy, but I will get him a note on it.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I hope the Secretary General understands that I am concerned about the cost factor involved as three or four prison officers must accompany each prisoner to a hospital setting for treatment.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Where are we with that issue? Has the matter been resolved? Can the treatment programme be rolled out in each prison?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will come back to the Deputy.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The treatment programme is ideal. I think a person receiving treatment would have to attend a hepatitis C clinic once a week for a period of either eight or 12 weeks. The advantage of administering treatment in a prison setting is that the person can receive treatment they require there.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Prison Service has done quite a detailed piece of work on healthcare needs, in conjunction with the Department of Health. I imagine that this matter is being addressed but I am happy to get a note for the Deputy and address that.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Secretary General to come back to me on that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will indeed.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My apologies were given at the start of the meeting. They were meant to be that I was going to be late rather than not appear.

On paragraph 6.4, page 43, I note there is a huge disparity between the legal costs that are paid out by the Department and shows almost €11.7 million was paid but the compensation was just over €490,000. Please explain the disproportionate fees compared with the awards of compensation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not related to awards of compensation. An awful lot of our legal business would be in relation to judicial reviews of immigration decisions so it would not involve compensation per se. It would simply involve legal costs.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the Secretary General not think the legal costs are quite extravagant at €11.7 million? Does that amount mean her Department is paying literally for both sides of the judicial review? Of course the applicant receives legal aid.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sometimes but not always. Solicitors operate on a no foal, no fee basis in terms of those cases so there would be costs incurred for the applicant. It would not include our fees. I would not accept that the costs are extravagant because we negotiate and we rely on the State Claims Agency to negotiate in terms of a fee settlement.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would say the compensation is lower certainly. What is the success rate in judicial reviews for things like asylum seekers or international protection appeals?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have a sense of that to be honest, but I can come back to the Deputy.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Secretary General might submit it because it needs to be-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is about value for money and whether we are adjudicating decisions correctly.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy is absolutely right. What we are very careful to do is have a feedback loop so that we apply the learning from any cases so that we do not keep making the same mistakes.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will Ms McPhillips submit data on the number of appeals taken, the success rate, those that were dismissed and those that were never heard at all for whatever reason, perhaps because they were withdrawn?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am happy to do that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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To go back to something that was said earlier, does Ms McPhillips not think these are extravagant costs?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The number is very high but extravagance has a different meaning for me, if the Deputy knows what I mean.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. Regardless, I would consider that they need to be reduced. When compared with what we see from other Departments, they seem quite high.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The asylum list is one of the largest lists in the High Court. I have some figures on the number of judicial reviews taken. It fell from a high of 240 in 2021 to 166 last year. I hope that is a reflection of the quality of the decision making.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many of those were then allowed?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will get that information for the Deputy.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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All right. We will leave it there. There were initiatives the Department followed through on to reduce its legal costs.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The initiatives were to reduce the challenges.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What were the challenges?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I mean the bases for legal challenges.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I suppose you cannot do much about judicial reviews when it comes to-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Looking at the volume of immigration decisions made, it should be remembered that people have the right to exercise their legal rights in that regard. We try to concentrate on the quality of the decision making. We give people a lot of training. We take advice from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, which also participates in the training. The nature of the decisions is such that they have a very great impact on people's lives so people do challenge them because they-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There were 240 appeals taken. Is that figure for 2022?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is for appeals taken in 2021.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many decisions were actually made?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Hundreds of thousands of immigration decisions are made. The volume of immigration-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If Ms McPhillips could include that figure in her submission to the committee it would help us to develop an understanding.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is no problem.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is grand. Last year, we made some recommendations to the Department. One in particular related to a review it was carrying out with regard to international protection applications and how they are dealt with. It was then taking ten months to deal with an application. Has the process been reviewed? Is the timeframe now better?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. At the beginning of last year, the median time for decision making on international protection applications was 18 months. By the end of the year, we had that down to ten months. An accelerated process was introduced at the beginning of November, the aim of which is to ensure decisions are made within three months. So far, we are achieving that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department's customer portal is now online. No, it is not. It is due to come on stream for 2024. Is that right?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Roughly 80% of immigration applications are made online. The other 20% still represents a very significant volume of paper. We are trying to eliminate that. We have a modernisation programme that I would be happy to brief the Deputy about.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What proportion of the €18 million that was allocated for-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Staff?

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was allocated to bring the processing of the applications and all of that up to today's standards. How much of that has been spent?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have approximately half of the staff numbers we wanted to achieve this year in place. We need to add just over 100 more staff over the course of the rest of the year. That is quite ambitious in the current market but we have doubled-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department will be looking for more money.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, that increase would fall within the €18 million.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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All right.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We are covered on that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I assume we will have an update on that next year.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, absolutely.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Having regard to the clock, the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, appointed a gambling regulator in September 2022. Some €200,000 was allocated in the budget for 2021 that was never drawn down. Have any moneys been drawn down since?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. An interim CEO was appointed to the regulatory authority in September 2022. We did not manage to spend anything in 2021 because no appointments had been made.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What happened to that money, the €200,000 that was allocated in 2021?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It would have either been reallocated or returned to the State.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do we know which?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We had a surrender balance in 2021 so it probably formed part of that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was included in that. Okay. What has been drawn down?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Roughly €160,000 was drawn down in 2022. I am being corrected. It was €161,000.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The CEO was only appointed in September. Was that €161,000 drawn down in the last quarter of 2022?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, there would-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I mean the interim CEO appointed when the office was set up.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Non-pay expenditure would also be included in that. There are various other costs.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will quickly move onto Garda recruitment. I do not have much time left but I am very concerned. I receive an awful lot of emails from constituents about Garda transfers being delayed and about Garda recruitment in general. One particular individual tells me that, having waited for years to join An Garda Síochána, he has been rejected based on his body mass index, BMI, despite having been given a clear bill of health by both his own doctor and at a medical. Is there a stipulation regarding BMI in respect of recruitment to An Garda Síochána?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Recruitment falls under the Garda Vote. The Garda Commissioner is the Accounting Officer for that Vote.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It has nothing to do with the Department.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not get involved in it. To be honest, I would imagine the medical requirements are standard.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I find it extraordinary but we will have to take it up with somebody else. I take it the same pertains with regard to transfers.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am afraid so.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is fine. Could Ms McPhillips tell me who oversaw the firearms expert committee?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The firearms committee was appointed by the Minister of State.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes but who oversaw it on behalf of the Department of Justice?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As I understand it, there was an advertised call for expressions of interest. People applied and were assessed and then the appointments were made.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What role does the Department play with regard to the firearms expert committee?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Is the Deputy asking about the appointments?

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No. I am asking about the committee and what it is set up to do, which is to make recommendations, although I am happy to hear about the appointments if it is relevant.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We liaised with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform with regard to setting fees. We sent out the advertisements.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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These were advertisements for committee members.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, exactly. One of our own firearms inspectors, who is a professional expert, represents the Department on the committee, so we are part of it.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was Ms McPhillips at all concerned to read in one of the media outlets that one member of the committee came out and said that it was basically a farce?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I have not read that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Surely, to be honest-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a big Department.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is a big Department but Ms McPhillips is the Secretary General and this is a fairly damning indictment of an expert committee on which the Department has a member serving.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am honestly not that familiar with it.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is there anybody here who is familiar with it and who could speak on Ms McPhillips's behalf?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not know if Mr. O'Callaghan has any knowledge of this.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It has been well broadcast and reported in several media outlets. I have no difficulty in naming the committee member but I will not out of respect-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Please do not.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It has already been publicised.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, it is the opinion of one committee member.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The question was whether Ms Mc Phillips is concerned.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

All of the members are qualified and have particular expertise. They were chosen on the basis of their expertise.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How does Ms McPhillips know that?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Callaghan was going to answer the question but was interrupted.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry.

Mr. John O'Callaghan:

I was not really going to add much other than to say that the committee was established, did its work and reported. A consultation phase is now under way.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has that consultation not closed?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I have a note here that says it was launched on 3 May so I would say it is still ongoing.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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For how long will it remain open?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not know.

Mr. John O'Callaghan:

I am not sure whether it has closed but there is or was a consultation process through which people can or could give their views on the committee report. That consultation will be considered and decisions will be made on policy subsequent to that consideration.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who drew up the consultation process?

Mr. John O'Callaghan:

The Department was obviously involved in designing it and in setting up the committee, which the Minister of State established.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I went online to take part in the consultation and, even if I were a ballistics expert, I am not sure I would be able to complete the survey. I never read anything like it. That is why I have received so many complaints. It was not a consultation process that members of Firearms United Ireland or other gun groups could make head or tail of. I cannot say I blame them.

To me, that is concerning, especially when we are dealing with such important legislation. It seems to me there has not been any engagement with those groups thus far. I understand the consultation period would need to end, but when the consultation itself cannot be partaken of by those whom it is going to affect, this is mind-boggling. It is not possible to make head nor tail of it in the English language.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not the only means of consultation, though. I understand the Minister has sought written submissions from the relevant bodies-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Well, I have not heard anything.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----and intends to meet representatives of them.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will check that.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It may be helpful to state that according to the website of the Department the consultation period ends on 2 June.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay, that is fine.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will come in again later, but based on that, I ask Ms McPhillips to ensure there will be proper engagement because this is what public consultation is about. Derogatory media reports are out there in respect of the composition of the committee. I cannot say whether those are justified or not, but I would be concerned. This is primary legislation, and the headline in one of our local newspapers referred to the Kinahan and Hutch gangs not needing to go through this process. This is a little disparaging of anything we are trying to do as legislators.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will not dwell on this point, but what we have done with public consultation is to undertake various strands in this process. There are, therefore, other strands, apart from the questionnaire, but I take the Deputy's word for what she said about that.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Well, I was not able to partake in the public consultation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will look into that aspect.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure public consultation is not meant just for those affected.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I could not partake because I could not understand the-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy. That point has been made.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have some questions on the airline fines.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sure.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Garda issued 958 fines in 2022, which is a high number. If I heard what Ms McPhillips said correctly, in the first quarter of this year, 175 fines have been issued.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, that was it. That is right.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking about this in the context where we obviously want to help people coming here who are genuinely fleeing conflict, persecution or war. I am trying to get to the bottom of how people can arrive here without documentation. The airlines have, on anything I have ever boarded anyway, someone at the far side. What destinations do the bulk of these people come from? I know Ms McPhillips will probably tell me these could be different, but what are the top three locations in this regard?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have information on those to hand, but I will get it.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, somebody here will. Ms McPhillips must know this anecdotally.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In what airports in what countries is this happening?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I ask Mr. O'Sullivan to come in on this question.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

We can perhaps get back to the Cathaoirleach with a general sense of where the main routes are. By definition, however, if people arrive at a border-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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At European points of departure?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Sullivan must have some sense of this.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

As the Secretary General said, it moves around, and in any event-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it Rome?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

It moves around.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it Madrid?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

It can be.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it Paris?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

If the Cathaoirleach understands, and I am sorry for being difficult about this point, but people without documentation who approach a member of our staff at a hatch in Dublin Airport may not necessarily say where they travelled from. They have come through a general passenger area and they may have waited a while to approach. We might infer that flights have come in from Madrid in the last half an hour, for example, but those people may have been waiting for an hour to present themselves.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on. When people come off a plane, they are corralled into a queue and the first person they meet is the garda at passport control.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Again, this-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is the first person they always meet.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not a garda, actually, it is one of our staff.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. It is not a garda but a member of the Department's staff. There are also members of the Garda knocking around at that point. If people, then, get there and they do not have a passport-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----I presume they are brought to one side and a garda and immigration officers arrive at that stage.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As Mr. O'Sullivan has said, there is analysis of-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is what I am saying to the witnesses. Approximately 200 people may have got off a flight, for example, from Lanzarote or Lagos. This is a scenario that happens.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

I suppose to-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It changes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We know the destination those people have come from. Now-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

In terms of how the airport works and the volume of passengers arriving, sometimes we will have people who meet passengers arriving as they actually disembark from the plane. Typically, however-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

-----people will spend some time walking through the airport.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not a case of people arriving in distinct flight-by flight groups.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People are not free to just walk in and by where the-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

I am not trying to be difficult, but if the Cathaoirleach recalls an occasion when he arrived in the airport himself, he will remember that people wait, then go down the walkway and then through the terminal.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I remember it that way.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

It may take ten minutes to get through the terminal. Along the way, people pass bathrooms, places where they can sit down and they will be mingling with passengers from multiple destinations.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Our understanding is that people arrive from the main hub airports but pinning down which ones and-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is, therefore, mainly European airports.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, it absolutely is.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What we are hearing is incredible. On the fines imposed, according to the figures published, nine of ten passengers refused permission to land at Dublin for not having the required documentation were subsequently allowed to stay. Figures published in the last fortnight in the newspapers stated that 6,765 of 7,662 who presented were allowed to stay. A figure of 98%, however, was mentioned. This would seem to suggest that nine out of ten subsequently applied for asylum status. Did Ms McPhillips say it was 98%?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is correct, yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is 98%. The figures given in that newspaper article then actually underestimated the number.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It varies from time to time-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----but that is roughly the proportion.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What would be-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Just to clarify, for one second-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----the country of origin-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----it is not that they are allowed to stay but that-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are allowed to apply.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----they seek asylum.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. I am okay with that. In that context, what is the country of origin of most of those people?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

So-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking what airport they came from, but their countries of origin.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Again, this varies a little from time to time. In 2022, the main five countries of origin were Georgia, Algeria, Somalia, Nigeria and Zimbabwe.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Then in 2023, that profile has changed a little bit. It now reads as Nigeria, Algeria, Georgia and Afghanistan. It changes over time, therefore, and some of the policies are having an impact as well.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is obviously great pressure on the system and we must try to-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is terrible that we have people around the corner from here in tents.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We must be able to help people who are able to establish a case and help them faster and do better than we are now. Regarding those who arrive without documentation, what is the main reason they give?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They simply say they have no documents.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have established that aspect.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If a garda or immigration officer questions people, though, and that is the only answer given, unless they look at a spot on the wall for two days, surely a better answer will be elicited.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

To be clear, people in that situation are not under arrest. They are engaging with an immigration officer.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Surely they are getting some answers from them-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----and not just the response that they have no documents.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think, by and large, this is what they say.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Right.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will check for the Cathaoirleach, but this is my understanding of what they say.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has any research been done into the reasons this is happening?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

This has been a phenomenon down through the years. It has certainly increased and that proportion has increased quite a lot in recent years. In the past, though, people would have travelled on false documents. People have a tendency to destroy false documents because they can be charged with the offence of having such false documents. This is one of the reasons for this.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People, therefore, get on with false documents and then may tear them up and push them down the toilet or something like that while on the plane.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Exactly, or, as Mr. O'Sullivan said, en routefrom the plane to the immigration hall.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

I will turn now to trying to deal with international applicants and the whole challenge encountered in this respect. A great effort has been made in communities in the context of both the Ukrainian and the international situation, to separate those out.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, in many cases, a lot of misinformation gets out. It gets out ahead of us being informed. We were told we would have a level of consultation in respect of anything happening. I will say to the witnesses what I said to Mr. Kevin McCarthy, the Secretary General of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

I have never, ever received any information from any official in relation to the housing in advance, while it was happening or within a week of it. I had a positive engagement with the OPW and an official from that Department subsequently in regard to one situation which, thankfully, is working out very well and will work out well. When Ms McPhillips says there will be a level of consultation from the Department of Justice point of view, what does that mean for public representatives? The public think that we know but that we are not telling them, as TDs or Ministers.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We are not involved any more in the distribution of people around the country. We are simply not. We do not have an involvement in that. We do liaise very closely with our colleagues in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in regard to processing times, people who are in direct provision and all of that. There is an exchange of information but we do not have advance notice of where people are going.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, a lot of the direct provision system is blocked up at the moment because we cannot move people out quickly enough because of the housing situation and all of that. We need to get people integrated, in particular people who have cleared all of the hurdles and who have established genuine cases. In terms of moving them and getting other people in, and getting people out of tents and out of homelessness on the streets, that has to be the aim. In that regard, what is the longest period of time that people are in direct provision?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have the information on direct provision. What I have is the information in regard to the international protection process and those who are with us awaiting decisions, if that is okay.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the longest?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There are a few that are a very long time. There are 36 that are over five years but that is a minority of the 15,433 that we have on hand.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are these first-instance decisions?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, but they would be particularly unique cases.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know they might be unique. Just so that we can understand as a committee, and so the public can understand, why would somebody be waiting five years for a first-instance decision?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think there would be particular circumstances in many of those cases.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Such as?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There may be a judicial review, there may be people who have withdrawn and then come back into the system at some point, there may be medical reasons or there may be other complications. I would emphasise again it is 36 out of 15,433.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I got that. How many first-instance decisions are processed within the first year?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Two per cent of cases are processed within three years, or two years.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you repeat that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry, 98% are processed within two years. I was saying that the wrong way around. Only 2% are over two years and 0.2% are over five years.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many are done in the first year?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

In the last six months, since 8 November last, we introduced an accelerated process for designated safe countries, and some of those I have mentioned in that list of countries are designated safe countries. Some 60% of those were finalised within 79 days.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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First-instance decisions were 60%.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, absolutely. That is the new process.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is a huge improvement, is it not?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. The people directly involved in doing that need to be commended.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely, the staff are doing great work. As I said, it is difficult work but they are very conscious of the impact on the clients.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is 60% within the first-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Within 79 days. That is of the safe country ones and we are prioritising those.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Of those that will have a negative decision in the first instance, roughly what percentage appeal that and go through the appeals process? Would it be half?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The vast majority would go to appeal.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be 80% or 90%?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That profile probably looks slightly different in regard to the speed of the decision-making, so the longer the decision takes, the more likely that somebody will appeal. Those are still working their way through the system so we are keeping an eye on that proportion, but we expect it to be slightly different from what it has been up to this point.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the 2021 figures, obviously, there is a huge budget going in, rightly so, to try to provide accommodation. There were 869 who were refused entry, 94 were deemed not admissible, 2,081 were granted permission to remain and 1,383 were granted refugee status. With regard to the 869 that were refused entry, what happens to them?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am trying to identify the numbers.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is from a table in the documents.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Is it in the briefing that I gave to the committee?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. There is a table that states that 869 were refused. What would generally happen there?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

If the person was refused, they would have the option of appealing and would then go through the appeal at the International Protection Appeals Tribunal.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If they fail in the first round of the appeal, what happens?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Is that in the second round - in the appeal?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. Yes, the second round.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Then they would go to the ministerial decisions unit, I think, and they would receive a letter informing them of the decision. They would then have the option to remove themselves, or they would have the option of returning home in a supported fashion, or they-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Or going to court.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Obviously, they can exercise that option, yes. Or they would be deported.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many were deported last year or in 2021, if Ms McPhillips has the figures? It is just to give us a sense of it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

People do self-deport, and lots of people self-deport and do not tell us about it, so we do not know that figure - it is an unknowable figure.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many were actually deported?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The figure for enforced deportations in 2022 was 26, for self-deportation confirmed it was 93, for EU removal it was 37, and then a number of people were transferred under the Dublin III Convention.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the total number?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is 248.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was 248 last year. In terms of improving accommodation, there was a Government White Paper on this and talk of ending direct provision. From an official point of view, in terms of the Department trying to move towards that system, obviously the Ukrainian situation has happened and it has been a crisis. A war is a crisis and we are trying to deal with an emergency situation now, which has created huge pressures. Is there work ongoing at an official level in the Department in terms of moving away from direct provision?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The actual accommodation system is for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Our focus is on the speed of the decision-making and that is our part of that whole process.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Department would be consulted about this, would it not?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Not on the style and quality of accommodation or anything like that. We engage with and talk to our colleagues all of the time. They are in that procurement business and they are doing their very best in very difficult circumstances.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask about people entering. Obviously, we are an island and people have to come through a port or an airport. Ms McPhillips mentioned there was a figure in excess of 40% arriving at the immigration centres who have not come through a port, whether an airport or seaport.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think that was Deputy-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was Deputy McAuliffe. I think 40% to 60% was the range.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We did not give that figure.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips said it is over 40%.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I said that sounded about right but I do not have the figure to hand.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It could be 50% or 60% though.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Certainly, a big proportion are not coming through the airport.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So it is up to half.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It may even be more than half, to be honest.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips said there is co-operation with the authorities in Britain and we know Britain does not have a good policy in regard to the former Prime Minister wanting this scheme of sending people to Rwanda. We do not want to go there but, obviously, Brexit has had an impact here. Ms McPhillips said there is a high level of co-operation with the authorities in Britain on this. Is there co-operation specifically with the Scottish authorities or the Scottish police service?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. I think it is dealt with by the Home Office, which co-ordinates it for the entire UK.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the ports in the North, what level of co-operation is there?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

With whom?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What level of co-operation is there with ports in the North? In other words, with the port authorities or the PSNI.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Garda and the PSNI liaise on these matters.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would the PSNI be doing similar work at Belfast Airport as An Garda Síochána does at Cork Airport?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, because Belfast is in the legal jurisdiction of the United Kingdom. There is no immigration border at Belfast.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that. We do not want a hard border.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do not want to go there.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to understand how it works.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There are border force officials and Home Office officials at every port. There is no immigration check, per se, of people coming from the UK, but I would say they keeps an eye on things and certainly monitor the situation. I do not like speaking for those officials, because it is not my jurisdiction.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know. I do not expect Ms McPhillips to do so. I am just trying to understand how the system works. The point where people come to the immigration centre and are fingerprinted, etc., is really the checkpoint after which one can start to process.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Exactly.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I wanted to figure out how it works. Is the Department making a concerted effort for those who are awaiting a decision for three, four or five years, even though it might be a second-round decision? If people have a genuine case, it is important that we try to help them. The increase in staff is to be welcomed. We have highlighted this. It will more than double the current figures. When does Ms McPhillips hope to have those 433 staff in place?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The aim is to have them at the end of this year.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that realistic?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is hard to know. Recruitment, no more than in other areas of the economy, is very challenging. We have full employment. We have made good progress so far and we get good co-operation from our colleagues in the Public Appointments Service, PAS, but it is of concern to me. When one gets the staff, sustaining them is quite the challenge. These staff are highly qualified and mobile. They get promoted, move on and find other opportunities very quickly - much more quickly than in my day.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that the Department has approximately 300 staff at present?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We had 294 staff as of 18 May. We previously had 299 staff. The number dropped to 294 but it may increase to 302.

I will speak about appeals, because the appeals tribunal is a key element of this. It also has an increase in resources this year. The tribunal was resourced for a certain level of caseload and we are monitoring the impact of decision-making in the International Protection Office, IPO, on the International Protection Appeals Tribunal, IPAT, on an ongoing basis. We are resourcing IPAT to be able to step up its operations, which is a key element of the system. Its numbers are increasing and the panel numbers, that is, those who make the decisions in the IPAT, are increasing.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Following my earlier question on the airline fines, what measures does the Department have in place with the airlines, with regard to those who arrive in Irish airports and do not present themselves within an adequate timeframe, which provides difficulty to ascertain their country or airline of origin? What measures is the Department implementing to strengthen this perceived weakness?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

A number of measures are being taken on an ongoing basis and we are reporting to the Cabinet committee on a monthly basis.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are they?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

A big chunk of it, from our point of view, is the accelerated procedure, making decisions faster and the ramp-up in staff I just discussed with the Chair. The additional resources are key. That accelerated procedure is having an impact. We have recommenced refusal decisions. As we step away from the pandemic, it is very easy to forget its impact but, essentially, we did not make refusal decisions for two years because people simply could not be removed. It would not have been humane. People could not travel and we could not tell them to get on a plane, because there was no international travel. It had an impact. We recommenced the process in the course of 2022 and that is-----

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many refusal decisions does the Department make on a weekly basis?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The aim is to make 7,500 decisions this year and ramp that up to 12,000 by next year. The aim is to make 1,000 decisions per month. That is the ambition, when we are fully staffed.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are those seeking international protection or asylum processed as normal? How many weeks or months does it take to make the decision?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We introduced an accelerated procedure on 8 November in respect of countries that are designated of safe origin, of which there is quite a considerable number. Those decisions are now being made, in the first instance, within 79 days. The median decision time is less than three months.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Department reaching its key performance indicators?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We are well within the 90 days. Maintaining that is a real challenge. We need to do so. We have a backlog of 15,500 and we really need to ramp up.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What escalation process does the Department have in place for those who travel without documentation from countries that are not of safe origin? What is the procedure in place? How many individuals do we see arrive on a weekly basis, who are refused and deported?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The people who seek asylum, regardless of where they are from, have to have their applications considered. They have to go through the process. Our aim is to make those decisions as quickly as possible. We are reaching that 79-day target.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department make these decisions at the airport?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department ever refuse anyone entry at the airport?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We refuse people permission to land. If they seek asylum, they have to be admitted into the process. That is part of our international obligations.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What kind of numbers seek to land but are refused by the Department?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a very high percentage of the overall proportion. In the first four months of this year, just over 1,010 people were refused leave to land on the basis of having no documentation. Some 281 were refused for being in possession of false documentation.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What were those peoples' states of origin?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will get the Deputy that information. I do not have it to hand.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I asked about the airlines previously. Does Ms McPhillips have information on the airlines on which fines have been imposed? What airline has been issued the highest number of fines to date?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not have the information because we do not impose the fines. It is a Garda process. I can get that information.

Photo of Alan DillonAlan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department not review those fines on an annual basis?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The information is probably published; I just do not have it. We do not impose the fines. They are Garda fines, but I will get the information.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will come back in on the investor programme. I presume that 94% of the 3,000 applications the Department has on hand are from China.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is 94% of the applications in total. I do not know exactly what proportion of the 3,000 it is.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A small number of the 3,000 applications would be from other jurisdictions. Are there any from Russia?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No. We have no beneficiaries from Russia.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has the Department cancelled any programmes of people from Russia?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No. Over the lifetime of the programme, we have had very few Russian applications. There is nobody currently in benefit from Russia. People from Russia were not eligible for the past 12 months either.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will ask Ms McPhillips about the investigation that was carried out by the UK. Obviously, the UK would have very sophisticated security and intelligence, through its agency, MI6. It has a greater reach and intelligence capacity. How would the Department do a background check on sizeable numbers of people from the likes of China? Do we have the capacity to do so?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It definitely is a difficulty. We have required applicants to self-declare. There are various agencies and bodies-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is self-declaration?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will go into a little detail on this for the Deputy. There is a detailed process. I ask Mr. O'Dwyer to elaborate.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Briefly, because I have very little time.

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

We do due diligence checks. These are undertaken as part of our obligations under anti-money laundering legislation. We examine sanctions lists relating to politically exposed persons. Identity documents have to be verified as well, so where there is an apostille-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who are they verified with?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

They are done under the Apostille Convention. If a particular country is not part of that convention, it is done by the ministry of foreign affairs in that country and our own mission.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is China part of that?

Mr. William O'Dwyer:

I think it is, yes.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Presumably with the UK it was the same profile of investors, was it not?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, it is not. It is totally different.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right, okay.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is dominated by Russia in the UK.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They would have been different. Presumably you would have read the report of the investigation they did.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not think it was made public, but there were various reports of it.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You would have paid attention to some of those and factored them in in terms of vulnerabilities.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Presumably, when you did your review, you included those kinds of findings. I refer to the most review that was done in advance of this being terminated.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The overall international situation was very much part of the consideration as well. I will return to the due diligence reports. There are various international risk management and security screening organisations. I gather that it is a kind of standard in business that people have to adhere to these standards. It is a detailed process whereby they provide this information. This has been part of the scheme for the past few years, as recommended in one of the previous reviews.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a couple of other questions. Ernst & Young did the reconfiguration of the Department of Justice. They would have a good-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

To clarify, the consultants did not do the reconfiguration. The Department did the reconfiguration.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Consultants would have been involved.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We were supported by them.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They would have a very good understanding of the Department following that engagement.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Some people would.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. Does that confer an advantage on consultants pitching for further work being tendered? Is that factored in or is it an issue?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

What one is trying to do is get the best value for money for the State. In assessing any tender, one is trying to take that into account as well. One needs to try to make the playing field as even as possible and make sure sufficient information is included in the tender documents to ensure people have enough information to put their best case forward.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You obviously tender for everything.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We do, yes.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would expect the Department of Justice to be compliant with that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there another investor programme being looked at by any other Department, or is that it?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is nothing immediate. As I said at the beginning, we are conscious of the impact on people who had applications in development. We are trying to organise as orderly a wind-down as we can. We will be working through those applications over the coming months. I am not aware of any other plans in this regard, but other Departments obviously have other programmes and schemes in place, not related to immigration.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You tell us that property is not part of the categories.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For example, iCare Housing bought something above 500 houses. It would have had funding through this programme. Would that have been considered something different, because it was an organisation trying to deal with homeless people?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Something like that would come in under the endowment aspect of the programme.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is different. It does have a property component to it, but not in the sense that it is an investment in property.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As I said earlier, I am not in a position to deal with individual applications. I do not think it is right to comment on them. Certainly, social housing was one of the categories.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For what it is worth, they were quite complimentary about you in terms of the efforts that were made.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is a range of people engaged in this area. I am conscious that lots of people are involved in developing various things.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are there any open files on protected disclosure at the moment?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Off the top of my head, I think ten matters have been brought to attention and are under investigation at the moment. They may not all turn out to be protected disclosures. It is possible that they are just being assessed to see whether they are. It is an area that continues to-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What areas do they relate to?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They relate to various different aspects of the Department's work. Some of them relate to the prison service and some relate to our immigration service. To be honest, we get quite a lot of correspondence from the general public or employees in other Departments that do not turn out to be protected disclosures for the purposes of the Act for ourselves. They write to the Department of Justice about it. I would say the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General gets some of those too. We assess whether they are protected disclosures for the purposes of the Act.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am going back to the immigrant investor programme. To be honest, I find it very difficult to believe that you are not across the serious issues I flagged up relating to the scheme. It is in all of the media and has been flagged up in the public domain.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I did not say that. I said I was not in a position to deal with individual cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You said you would not deal with individual cases, and that is a comfort blanket you are using. If you are comfortable hogging that blanket, I find that incredible coming from the Department of Justice.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, please treat the witness with respect.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This had been flagged up in the public domain. Do you accept that your Department established a scheme that facilitated potential fraud? Do you accept that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I cannot accept that, Deputy.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do you accept that your Department stood over it for almost a decade, and facilitated it?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think that when you mentioned this earlier, you said that this is the subject of litigation.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but I said at the start that we are talking about oversight. I will give an example. As I have said, this was flagged up. Going back to November 2020, there was correspondence between the broker and the investor in that particular scheme.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Chair, people are being named.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There was correspondence from the Department. I did not name. There was correspondence from a member of your Department. Is she on the meeting today? Is she on Zoom? She might be willing to-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is nobody on Zoom.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there nobody on Zoom or Teams? Right. That is an awful pity. She said it was clear that the Carnbeg holiday village project could not proceed as per the approved business plan. She asked for details to be provided of the investments that had been received, which it was hoped could be reallocated in line with an attached spreadsheet. She said she had eight applications awaiting decisions for the project. She said that as it stood, they should be refused as the project was not proceeding, and there was not capacity within either Leixlip Manor or Nuremore Hotel to reallocate the existing investors and applications on hand. She asked the correspondent to advise if the applications should be withdrawn. There was other correspondence relating to the Nuremore Hotel.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Be careful, Deputy. You are dealing with specific cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. She wrote that she understood some of the Huawen Foundation approvals had been linked to the Táin Bó fund at some stage. However, after liaising with the fund and reconciling their records, she found that none of the applicants listed in an attached spreadsheet had invested in the fund. If they are not red flags, that was in 2020-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Chair, do I get to reply at some stage?

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why were these issues not addressed?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, you might let in the witness.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Thank you, Chair. As I said earlier, up to the end of 2022 there 3,565 applications.

The Deputy is quoting in relation to one specific application and I have said I am not in a position to deal with the individual applications.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms McPhillips maybe answer a general question, seeing as that is what we are here for?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy is reading into the record allegations in relation to a single application.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask a general question then. When serious issues of potential fraud were flagged, why were they not followed up?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I have not said they are not followed up. The Deputy has alleged that and I am not in a position to deal with that.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms. McPhillips tell us whether they were followed up?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

What I can tell the Deputy is that if any allegations are made, they are passed on to An Garda Síochána. We co-operate fully with An Garda Síochána and are proactive in relation to any matters we think should be brought to the attention of An Garda Síochána.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department of Justice-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not talking about any individual cases.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department of Justice report any of the projects to An Garda Síochána?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Or any cases in a general way.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, there has been liaison with An Garda Síochána.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was Destination North East-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There have been a number of-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The reason I am raising this again is that this correspondence confirmed there was €43.5 million in investments in the fund but if we skip forward to this month, a further €40 million was allowed to be funnelled through that scheme-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I have answered a general question-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----so that is €80 million.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

-----and the Deputy is bringing it back to a specific incident.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will go back to plain and simple. Ms McPhillip's Department established the scheme. That scheme-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy not to be specific.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a programme that has facilitated potential fraud. The Department has stood over that for almost a decade.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I have not accepted that.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It has been in operation-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry but I have not accepted that allegation.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It has been in operation for decades. Ms McPhillips has accepted that the Department granted the golden visas on the promise of investment. That investment never materialised. For areas where particular schemes, or any scheme, were promised investment, will Ms McPhillips how they benefited? In the north east, in particular, how did the people in counties Louth and Monaghan benefit from that scheme in which the Department granted residency to investors? How did the people benefit from that scheme? They did not benefit.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I actually cannot follow the Deputy's question. Is she talking about the specific incident-----

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Department initiated a scheme where it granted golden visas to investors. Those investments, worth millions of euro, disappeared under its watch.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry but it was not under our watch that this happened in relation to any individual case.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McPhillips said earlier that she was pretty much washing her hands of it and that she does not follow it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I did not say that in relation to this. I said I was not in a position to deal with individual cases, for good reasons. Individual cases cannot be dealt with when there is 3,565 on them.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If issues are flagged, will Ms McPhillips furnish the committee with-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A quick question, Deputy.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I think we need to have the Department back in on this. There are too many unanswered questions.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy to be careful about being specific. She may continue but briefly.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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To talk about the scheme in general terms, Ms McPhillips does not have to name specific schemes but where issues were flagged up years ago, will she furnish us with details of what follow-up took place and what steps the Department took to rectify them? What measures were taken to ensure that the residencies were rescinded after a review of two years, whether the applications were stalled or if the Department pursued them to make sure those investments followed through as promised? Will she furnish us with a breakdown of all of those details?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I can answer that if the Deputy likes but she has not asked me that up to this point.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would like Ms McPhillips to furnish us with the details of that in writing.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I can certainly provide the Deputy with information. It might be helpful to clarify as well that there are the investors and the projects, and there are agents involved. Some of this is in relation to individuals in that cast of people who are involved and it may not be in relation to the investor. It may be in relation to the agent or the business. There are various aspects to this. What I can absolutely ensure and assure the committee is that where any issues were raised that raised any criminal or any kind of regulatory issues, they would have been brought to the attention of the relevant agency, whether that is An Garda Síochána or the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, or whatever. I apologise that my voice is gone.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips. Where red flags are raised or a senior official in the Department does not get answers to correspondence on a particular scheme, and I am not mentioning any scheme, why would that scheme be allowed to continue and to take in another huge number of investments? Why would that happen?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am not sure. I am not sure what the circumstances are to which the Cathaoirleach is referring.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Let me present a scenario in which there is a scheme where the money does not materialise or is outside the State and people who invested €1 million, €2 million or €3 million in the scheme are given status and residency on the basis of that investment. Let us say a number of people invested €20 million in the scheme and this is never invested in the project in which it is supposed to be invested. If Ms McPhillip's officials follow up on this and draw a blank because they receive no response or a totally inadequate one, why would the scheme be allowed to continue and take in maybe another €20 million or €25 million? Why would that happen?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not know.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What I am trying to figure out is that when these things happen with a particular agent or investor, normally the first thing that would be done is-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There would be consequences.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Even before consequences, someone would press the pause button and would not allow the hole to get any deeper. I will be non-specific but what I am trying to figure out for the committee - I think it is what Deputy Munster was trying to figure out - is why, in such a circumstance, a scheme would be allowed to continue and to take in further investments from a number of other individuals?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Mr. O'Connor is assisting me with this. Lots of the projects would involve more than one investor. Some investors might be compliant and some might not be. Some aspects of the project might be compliant-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where there is an agent-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Where there is an agent and a question, the projects would have been paused or the engagement with that agent would have been paused pending follow-up.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If a project was allowed to continue with the same agent and people were still investing in it, obviously those people would be in a situation in which they are being misled. If, in a hypothetical situation like that, the investor does not respond to the Department's senior officials, there is no information on where, we will say, the first €20 million went, another €30 million is coming in, yet the Department just allows it to continue.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not think that is necessarily the case, generally speaking. Certainly, the Department would have engaged with An Garda Síochána, as I said before.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, was involved in some cases as well.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question. I hear that and I have listened very carefully to the replies. What I am asking is a different question. Why would that agent or investor be allowed to take in money from other individuals for a project when there has been no sight of the original €20 million from, we will say, ten investors?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am going to ask Mr. O'Connor to answer because he is more familiar with this.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

In the generic, if a cluster of projects was under question by ourselves internally or we were informed by An Garda Síochána, there would be a pause put on a number of projects. Some of those would resolve themselves in weeks, some in months and some would never resolve themselves to the complete satisfaction of the Department or that of other agencies. There was a multitude of responses. It was calibrated depending on the level of engagement we received from the agent. Some agents co-operated fully-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What if one of them did not co-operate at all?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

They all co-operated to a degree because they all engaged with us. It is the degree of responsiveness of the return.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could money not be found?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

It was not so much that the money could not be found-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It did not go into the projects. Is it not the case that there have been cases where investors or agents have continued taking in money that was supposed to go into projects? I have copies of correspondence from an official in Mr. O'Connor's Department-----

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

The Cathaoirleach does.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, unless what somebody gave me is fraudulent. It shows that there are investors who put in money. The money does not go into the project, but what appears to have happened are situations where that agent was allowed to continue, investors were allowed to continue, the projects were kept open, and the money was still being put forward by some of these international investors. This was despite the fact that not alone were there red flags, but the whole thing had hit a brick wall. Mr. O'Connor's Department and its officials drew a blank with regard to answers. Is that not the case?

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

I probably would not agree with that. I would agree with some of it, but not all of it because-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The letters from Mr. O'Connor's Department would indicate that one could not just disagree.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Chair, it is very difficult to deal with this kind of case in public.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that, okay. I accept that.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

There was another case, and I am not going into specifics-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Connor should talk about cases.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

There was another project where, basically, red flags were raised. Engagement took place with the agent, and the issues were sorted to the satisfaction of the investors.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That has happened in all cases, from correspondence I have seen.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

In other cases, and I have to use the plural here, we engaged with An Garda Síochána and other bodies where we have concerns.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, where a scheme hits a brick wall, the scheme should not continue.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Does the Cathaoirleach mean projects?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, sorry. Projects should not continue.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

Where there is a high level of concern, and that is all I can say about it-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where there is 100% concern, and there is nothing coming back, what happens? There is no money.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

The problem sometimes, Chair-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If there was no money and no responses, Mr. O'Connor. Come on.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

Sometimes there were responses, but they might not have been the responses that we would have expected.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about a hypothetical situation. Is Mr. O'Connor saying to me that the Department, where there is no response from one of these agents and where we have not seen the colour of the money-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry, Chair, I think what I already said-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----would allow this scheme to continue?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry, Chair, but what I said already was that in those circumstances, it would be paused pending a follow-up.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Paused.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes.

Mr. Aonghus O'Connor:

I would like to add something to what the Secretary General said. If there was no correspondent or engagement, it would have been stopped, and there would have been instances of that.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could we be furnished with a list of projects which were stalled or stopped?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do not think we comment on projects. It is commercially sensitive, so we are not in a position to put the projects into the public domain.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could Ms McPhillips maybe let the committee know how many projects have been paused?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will look into it and see what I can furnish the committee with.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There should not be any problem with that. It is just a number.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I will do my best.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have a quick question with regard to how many actual immigration officers we have, and how they are dispersed. Ms McPhillips can probably submit that the committee; it is more to do with what we are seeing.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I can.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am, at all times, hearing that we do not have enough in Rosslare Europort, which is in my constituency. I am told that a request needs to be made to An Garda Síochána.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That would be An Garda Síochána, yes.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When it comes to the national policing plan, is the Department of Justice party to advising Government with regard to Garda numbers?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Minister has a key role with regard to the policing plan. I might ask Mr. O'Callaghan to come in regarding the Minister's role and the Department's role.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We have the lowest numbers per capitain Europe. It is very disturbing and concerning, and they are going in the wrong direction year on year. I am not putting Ms McPhillips on the spot, but we need-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I cannot answer the Deputy in relation to Garda numbers obviously, because that is-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, but I am wondering about advices. Surely Ms McPhillips is aware of that, and its-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Sorry, but I will take it back from Mr. O'Callaghan, because I can answer it. Our role is in relation to the budget. The Minister secures the budget through negotiation with and the co-operation of colleagues in the Department and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Ms McPhillips happy with the budget?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The budget is in place to recruit up to 1,000 gardaí this year and 400 Garda staff.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is grand. When we say that it is in place to recruit 1,000, we are not going to meet those targets. We did not meet last year's targets, or those of the year before.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The recruitment was paused during the Covid-19 pandemic because Templemore was closed. That happened until the second quarter of last year.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Let us leave the pandemic aside. I am not going to beat around the bush. There is a serious issue. It is very concerning. I am sure Ms McPhillips is aware of it, and twice as concerned as I am.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It applies to all public service recruitment.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It does, but in the same vein, we are putting policies in place which, if I was joining An Garda Síochána, would make me look at them and say, "Rubbish, pension wise and transfer wise". I refer to the entirety of how we are recruiting gardaí at the moment. If there is a garda travelling from Wexford to Dundalk on a daily basis to cover his shift, there is something fundamentally wrong with that. I am not saying it is Ms McPhillips's fault. I am asking-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Deputy is asking the wrong Accounting Officer.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, I am asking what input Ms McPhillips has. Surely the buck must stop with her in the Department of Justice with regard to recruitment or policing plans.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The Minister signs off on the policing plan. With regard to recruitment, the Minister gets the budget in place, and An Garda Síochána works closely with the Public Appointments Service. The terms and conditions are part of the overall public service pay and conditions structure.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If we have no gardaí joining tomorrow-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is not the case that we have no gardaí. We will have up to 700 gardaí joining this year.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Well, the target is 1,000.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I know, yes, but 700 is actually a very good recruitment-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why are we making targets for 1,000 then?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We would like to have more, and one would always like to have more.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We probably should have 2,000, but we have set 1,000 with the hope of making it. I ask Ms McPhillips not to get me started. I am asking a very serious question. If we drop below 700, has she an active role? As the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, is Ms McPhillips concerned that we are not recruiting the numbers we should be? We are already below the European average. It is dropping year on year. Is Ms McPhillips saying that she has no role to play in that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

An Garda Síochána is a growing organisation, unlike many of its counterparts across Europe and these islands. An Garda Síochána is trying to grow, and it will succeed in growing this year. Far more people will be joining An Garda Síochána than leaving.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is not actually true, is it? It is not true according to the parliamentary question I have.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is true.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not. The number of new recruits will not be 700. They will be part-replacements. We will not be adding 700 to the force, will we?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, that is not what I said.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What Ms McPhillips said is that we are recruiting far more than what will be retiring. That is what she said.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

No, the Deputy added emphasis.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many are retiring?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some 700 are coming in, but how many are due to retire in the same period? That is the question.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Roughly between 300 and 400 people leave An Garda Síochána during the year.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many are on sick leave at the moment?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am sorry, but it is the wrong Accounting Officer.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is fine. Okay. Well then, I would ask Ms McPhillips not to stray there.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Indeed.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have asked Ms McPhillips a specific question. Is she concerned?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I am concerned about all public service recruitment. When I was talking about the IPO earlier, we have very strong targets with regard to our own recruitment to the Civil Service. It is challenging. There is a lot of competition in the employment market at the moment. People have options. I would love to see more gardaí, as would the Garda Commissioner and the Minister. We will do our best to get as many gardaí in as we possibly can, and we will work very closely with An Garda Síochána, the Public Appointments Service and with everybody involved in the recruitment process.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is the Department not listening then to everything that is being said on the fact that pay, pension, hours and transfers are all an issue, but none of them has been adjusted, dealt with, or nothing?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

It is a wider issue.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is it then?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

As I said, the terms and conditions are part of the public service pay arrangements. As I understand it, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has plans for a new pay negotiation process-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Through the public service.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

----- later this year, and that is where we negotiate terms and conditions for the public service.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. Would Ms McPhillips be recommending that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Again, I would have to-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am trying to ascertain what Ms McPhillips’s role is. Is she as concerned as I am? I cannot fix it but she is in the Department. I am telling her what I am hearing day on day, week on week from senior gardaí. Even people who are involved in the recruitment process who have waited years are then being turned down on things such as BMI. I am sure when people get into the Garda, their BMI is not checked, and if their BMI is way above what it should be, they will not be dismissed. I do not see how it is a factor for recruitment no more than age, which we know is already in the legal sphere. Is Ms McPhillips as the Secretary General as concerned as I am? We have a growing population. We have international protection asylum seekers all around the country. We are not matching Garda figures in our ports and airports. We are not matching Garda figures with the growth in population at all. We are going backwards.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

On that last point on immigration and the role of the Garda, at Dublin Airport, it is not the Garda at all; it is staff of the Department of Justice. They are civil servants at Dublin Airport.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I mean immigration.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes. Those are civil servants in immigration in the airport.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They are civil servants; there are no gardaí. However, there are gardaí in Rosslare and there are not enough.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have a project to civilianise that aspect as well.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Anytime soon?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There will be a project plan later this year.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of questions before we conclude. On the fines on the airlines, I am trying to understand how a fine would be imposed if the asylum seeker, we will say mingles or whatever, and is confused about which airplane they got off and the first place they show up is at the immigration desk. How is the airline they came on picked out? How is that resolved?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think that is the issue that Mr. O’Sullivan referred to. It can be difficult to ascertain. We use various methods for that, including intelligence, and analysis is done.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the percentage of fines, is it mainly Dublin Airport?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I would say it is largely Dublin Airport.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How about Cork or Shannon airports?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I do no not think so.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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None.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I could be wrong and I will come back to the Chair. It is An Garda Síochána that imposed these fines but I will check it out for the Chair.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What about the unmanned airports? Have Garda personnel been deployed to one of those?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

They would pay attention to various areas in the country on an intelligence basis.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McPhillips for that. I wish to ask about the domestic violence refuges. This is being held up by Ms McPhillips's Department. I refer to the nine new domestic violence centres, which are badly needed. I am in a county where there is none, namely, County Laois. There is none in Offaly. Victims of domestic violence and children sometimes are going long distances and out of the county. It is a problem. Along with the trauma of the domestic violence, there is the trauma of people moving away from their families and children moving away from their school and doctor and all of the other services. The Istanbul Convention outlines that in this State there should be 490 spaces. How many do we have?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

The strategy was introduced last year and we have 141 places. That was the baseline. The aim over the lifetime of the strategy is to double the number of refuge places.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So we have a little over a quarter. We have about 27% or 28% of what we need. There should be 490 and that is a minimum.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

That is one of the ranges that is recommended in the Istanbul Convention. Of necessity, we have to walk before we can run. There is a plan in place and a good programme. We are trying to build up the capacity in the sector to-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am concerned about building up the capacity. I am not trying to nail this on Ms McPhillips. It is not that we are walking, rather, we seem to be slow marching on this. We need nine centres for victims of domestic violence. We know the problems that are occurring. I see some of them when constituents come in about other matters but they may also be victims of domestic violence. As I said, Laois and Offaly has none. In the case of Laois, there is a bespoke solution possibly, favoured by Offaly Domestic Violence Support Services, of having three residential locations – a different type of approach. If that works there, that is good. Obviously, that needs to be helped as well.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I think there has been a site visit recently.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We need to be moving it along in respect of Laois. Is the money there? There is no hold-up of money.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

There is no issue at all with the money. In fairness, our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage have been working closely with Mr. O'Callaghan on this. They are very co-operative and collaborative on this issue.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The convention has an article in it that states victims of domestic violence should not have to travel more than 30 minutes to a refuge centre. We have people who are out of the county and could be for weeks with situations like that. It obviously creates problems because victims perhaps feel they have to go back to get the children back in to school and perhaps move back into a potentially abusive situation again. That is the problem. I know there is Tusla-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Portlaoise is included in the 12 priority areas identified in the strategy and the Tusla review or audit. We are working on them. I ask Mr. O’Callaghan to elaborate, it that is okay.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before Mr. O’Callaghan comes in, Ms McPhillips will appreciate that it is not just the county that is without a refuge. There is a whole midlands area without a place.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, I have a map-----

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Heads need to be knocked together. The county council is involved and has identified sites. If Ms McPhillips comes in and ask me what she can do in her position in the Department, it is to try to push this on to get the centre in place.

Mr. John O'Callaghan:

The main thing we are doing is we that we had a group to examine the accommodation issue last year. We set up a steering committee that involves us, Tusla, the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It is fair to say we started from a low base. However, particularly in respect of those priority areas, the work is going on in all of them to identify sites and make sure we have groups on the ground in the locality helping deliver the services when the refuges are built. Specifically regarding the two the Chair mentioned, in Offaly they decided to effectively prioritise the safe home option to start with.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In three locations.

Mr. John O'Callaghan:

In three locations. A site has been identified in Laois. We will be pushing on. That is one of the ones that we want finished by the end of 2025. Over the next two years, we will be working to deliver on that.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Callaghan wants to get it in place and I know procedures have to be gone through. I would ask that red tape and procedures be minimised and not just to wait for somebody else to make another decision.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. O’Callaghan and Ms McPhillips to take that away. I have raised it consistently and it is brought up regularly to me. I refer to whatever hold-ups may be at local level. I know the county councillors and the county management team are anxious to get this in place. I know the people who provide the service at Laois Domestic Abuse Service and Marna, who heads it up, are anxious to move with it. Anything that can be done from the witnesses’ point of view to accelerate it would be appreciated. Please do not let any bureaucratic decision hold it up when we get agreement and get it moving.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes the questioning, the witnesses will be happy to hear. I acknowledge the work of the Department and particularly the improvements in the international protection piece. We want to try to do better for people. People are stuck in the system for a long time and it is not good for anybody.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Absolutely.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It means that there are other people on the street. Obviously, people come here who are not entitled to be here and the Department has to do its job regarding that as well, and that is fine. However, we are dealing with a very urgent situation. Hopefully, the Ukrainian situation will improve and that will take some pressure off. I acknowledge the improvements. I ask the witnesses to give a detailed table. Questions were asked by members in response to which the witnesses could perhaps supply a spreadsheet on timelines and targets-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

Yes, I can do that.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----and general information around-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

I acknowledge the work of colleagues and the work of the people in the immigration service in the international protection office in particular.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a big improvement since the last time we checked and I want to acknowledge that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips:

We have to keep that up.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses, the staff from the Department of Justice and Mr. O'Callaghan from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for the work they did in preparing for today's meeting and supplying information. I also thank Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, and his team for assisting and attending today as well.

Is it agreed that the clerk with seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.

The meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts is suspended until 1.30 p.m. when it will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.40 p.m. and resumed at 1.34 p.m.