Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 23 May 2023
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government
Review of Part B (Fire Safety) of Building Regulations: Dublin Fire Brigade
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We are discussing the review of part B (fire safety) of building regulations. We are joined today by Mr. Dennis Keeley, chief fire officer and Ms Mary O'Brien, assistant chief fire officer, from the Dublin Fire Brigade. I thank them for giving their time to us today and their opening statements, which we received in advance. By way of background, the committee has met a couple of times prior to this to examine areas around modern methods of construction and building with timber and changes to building regulations to facilitate that. The fact that there is a public consultation under way at present is quite timely. Your presence is greatly appreciated by the committee.
Before we begin, may I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of your contributions to today's meeting. This means you have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything you say at the meeting, but members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you are directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The meeting today will be an hour and a half and will run until approximately 4.40 p.m. For the information of witnesses, we generally have seven-minute segments to ask questions and receive answers. I invite Mr. Keeley to make his opening statement.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I thank the Chair and committee members for the invitation and welcome the opportunity to attend and discuss fire safety issues, specifically the review of part B of the fire safety building regulations. I am the chief fire officer for Dublin Fire Brigade. I am accompanied by my colleague, Ms Mary O'Brien, assistant chief fire officer. Dublin Fire Brigade provides the function of the fire authority for four Dublin local authorities, namely, Dublin City Council, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, South Dublin County Council and Fingal County Council. This includes the administration of part B of the building regulations in the Dublin region.
The functions of a fire authority as prescribed in the Fire Services Acts of 1981 and 2003 are to make provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishment of fire, to establish and maintain a fire brigade and to make provision to respond to calls. The principle objectives of Dublin Fire Brigade are to respond and deal with fire and medical emergencies as statutorily obliged. Additionally, our objective is to promote fire safety through education and advice and to help to ensure that fire safety standards are being adhered to in existing buildings.
We are tasked to act as regulators to enforce the building control regulations and to ensure compliance with building regulations is achieved through good building design practice by competent professional designers. Consequently, our role is to ensure best practice in terms of fire safety in both new and existing buildings. The Fire Services Acts and building control legislation provide us with powers of inspection and enforcement.
The Building Control Acts of 1990 and 2007 govern the design and construction of buildings. They provide for the making of the building regulations and building control regulations, and the setting up of building control authorities with powers of inspection and enforcement. The second Schedule of the building regulations sets out the 12 distinct parts of the building regulations, Parts A to M, including fire, which is addressed specifically in Part B. The building regulations are not prescriptive but are performance-based regulations. Dublin Fire Brigade administers Part B of the building regulations. Each part is accompanied by a technical guidance document, TGD, and Dublin Fire Brigade primarily deals with TGDB. Works carried out in accordance with TGDB are assumed to demonstrate prima facieevidence of compliance with building regulations.
The building control regulations 1997 to 2023 set out procedures and controls which require owners, builders, and registered construction professionals to demonstrate through the Statutory Register of Building Control Activity that the works or buildings concerned have been designed and constructed in compliance with building regulations. Building control regulations apply to the construction of new buildings and to existing buildings which undergo an extension, a material alteration or a material change of use, with some exceptions. It is a statutory requirement of the building control regulations that a fire safety certificate must be sought and obtained for the construction, material alteration, material change of use or extension to a building.
Dublin Fire Brigade, working in conjunction with the building control authorities of the four Dublin councils, processes approximately 1,400 fire safety certificate applications per annum. A fire safety certificate, once granted, indicates that a building, if built in accordance with the design submitted, will be in accordance with building regulations. It is the responsibility of the designer, the builder and the owner to ensure that the building is built in accordance with the fire safety certificate and the building regulations.
Designers rely on the guidance in TGDB to demonstrate compliance with building regulations. The current TGDB was produced in 2006 and is currently subject to review and updating by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Dublin Fire Brigade took part in the public consultation along with other stakeholders. We submitted comments and highlighted areas for consideration as well as points to be included or strengthened in the final document. Dublin Fire Brigade was also part of a national submission by the Chief Fire Officers Association, CFOA, that considered the comments of fire authorities nationally. The areas we have identified, in no particular order, that should be included or strengthened in the final document include a regulatory impact analysis review of Part B (Fire Safety) of the building regulations, B5 amendment; alternative designs and fire safety engineering approach to compliance; sustainability in building practice – future steps; modern methods of construction, MMCs; green walls and roofs; car parks; nursing homes; evacuation and ventilation strategies in residential buildings; vertical escape and fire fighting in residential buildings; common non-complex building types and scope; and separate guidance.
Dublin Fire Brigade supports environmentally sustainable development and the rapid construction of homes in the context of the housing crisis. We recognise the role that MMCs can play in achieving the Government's housing targets but fire safety should be integral to the adoption of these methods. Traditional construction systems such as reinforced concrete structures or steel have undergone a vast amount of large-scale testing which provides confidence and resilience in this type of construction system. Steel and concrete-type construction have their own issues with fire if not adequately addressed from a design perspective but fire safety design using these construction types is well known and has been practised widely over a sustained period, with lessons learned and changes adopted when necessary. MMCs are new and innovative designs. Generally they are faster in delivery and environmentally more suitable. Dublin Fire Brigade is meeting with designers, seeking extra test data, reviewing advanced analysis, and increasing our understanding of these methods to understand their use and their performance in a fire event. We suggest that reference to these types of construction in the new TGDB will greatly help designers to demonstrate compliance and regulators to determine such compliance. Guidance is needed to promote consistency across the industry and for all stakeholders. In order to ensure that appropriate guidance is in place, more regular amendments and updates to TGDB may be required to ensure that there is clear guidance in relation to these and other MMCs that emerge and to ensure that buildings are designed and constructed safely.
Dublin Fire Brigade welcomes the publication of and the public consultation on the updated TGDB 2023 - Volume 1 – buildings other than dwelling. We acknowledge the significant work that has gone into its development and publication and look forward to its final publication in due course. Additionally we welcome the new regulation B12 and look forward to future supporting guidance in this area. It will be important guidance for designers and regulators in establishing compliance with building regulations and continuing to provide prima facie compliance with building regulations B1 to B5, and to the new B12, as they relate to the future development of the built environment.
Dublin Fire Brigade has been actively supportive in the early review and development of the updated document, working collaboratively with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on it. Additionally, in recent times we worked collaboratively with the Department and stakeholders across the sector as part of a consultative committee. We continued working closely with the Department to support the public consultation and the final publication.
Dublin Fire Brigade fully supports the updating of TGDB and trusts that our comments, observations and submissions are useful and constructive. We are available to offer assistance in progressing fire safety guidance towards the continued improvement of current and future design and construction of buildings in Ireland. We have been invited to work with the Department and other stakeholders in the development of topics for further research and we welcome this new endeavour and the opportunity it represents. We suggest that more frequent updates of the TGDB should occur to embrace any new research and to keep apace of changing technologies and innovative construction methods. This would be very beneficial for all stakeholders and would keep our building standards in line with international best practice, to continue to deliver a safe built environment in Ireland.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank both of our guests for being here and I want to express my appreciation for the work that they and all members of the force do. It is incredible work that is incredibly valuable to all of us and is greatly appreciated.
I thank our guests for their submission. Representatives of the Department will be before this committee at a later date. They could not be here today. Mention is made in the opening statement of approximately 1,400 fire safety certificates per year. When a certificate is issued, is there a time limit on it? Is it valid for a limited period? Does it have an expiry date? How are certificates reviewed or updated or indeed, are they?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
An application is made for a fire safety certificate when somebody wants to construct, alter or extend a building. The certificate certifies the design of the building in accordance with building regulations. Using TGDB provides prima faciecompliance with the building regulations. It is not a certificate like other types of certificates for buildings. It is for the design of the building.
If the building is built in accordance with the application, there will be a building in the end that is in compliance with building regulations.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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When a building is built for a certain purpose and, at a later date, after it has received its certification and has been in operation for that original purpose, there is a change of use, what requirement is there is for an updated certification for that property? I am thinking of situations in which a commercial property is changed to residential accommodation, whether for short-term use or more long-term permanent accommodation.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Are there different standards, including built standards, to which there must be adherence?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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What is the procedure when a building has previously been certified as suitable? I am thinking of an office building or any commercial property. I am based in Dublin's north inner city, where there were a lot of older properties that may have originally been built for single-family use, were subsequently subdivided into bedsits and now might be in use as hostels. What is the procedure there?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Approximately how long does that process take?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I assume applicants cannot make an application until such time as they have done whatever alterations they are going to do to facilitate the change of use. What is the permitted use in the interim?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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However, is it correct that the certification cannot be completed until the work is completed?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Is it an offence to go ahead and change a building's use without obtaining a fire safety certificate?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Is it punishable by law?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Dublin Fire Brigade has welcomed the technical guidance review and made a submission to the public consultation. Is their submission publicly available?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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If the witnesses are in a position to share the submission, the committee would appreciate it. Having a copy would be helpful to us.
A long time has elapsed since the previous review was conducted. We live in a rapidly changing world. Reference was made to the massive acceleration of housing delivery, including not just new builds but also conversion and reuse. Can the witnesses share any thoughts on how this type of review process could be conducted on a more frequent, agile and iterative basis? A process whereby it happens once every ten years probably is not fit for purpose.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
One of the proactive initiatives the Department has engaged in is establishing a review group, of which we are members. As we see it, that group will allow for agility such that current topics, evolving strategies and evolving technologies in building construction can be assessed more quickly and guidance notes issued to accompany TGD B, as opposed to doing a complete review of the technical guidance. That is our assumption of how the process will work, but the Department needs to clarify that. A number of topics have been outlined for discussion. If they are not addressed within the new TGD B that will be published, we would see a need for a process to address them much more quickly.
Our view is that there should be a timeline of two to three years for additional guidance to be published. That is principally to guide the application of consistency across the country. It can be quite challenging for individual fire officers and fire authorities, as it can be for consultants, to interpret new and evolving technologies and how and where they sit within or interact with TGD B. We hope this initiative will allow for the agility the Senator referenced.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. Like Senator Fitzpatrick, I thank them and the men and women of the Dublin fire service and fire services throughout the State. They do not just provide a vital front-line public service; they put themselves in harm's way to keep all of us, our families and our communities safe. It is important to acknowledge that.
Sometimes, the most technical of the meetings of this committee are the most important. This is a very important discussion and I am delighted the witnesses are able to participate. It is important partly because it is such a long time since the technical guidance documents underpinning Part B of the regulations were last formalised. There have been some interim reviews, but 22 years is a long time to wait for updated guidance. not just for fire safety officials but also for people involved in the construction of buildings. It is really important that the Department concludes this work in a timely manner and that new technical guidance documents are published. I fully support the witnesses' proposition that there should then be periodic reviews every two to three years.
I have three questions. The first relates to coverage in the Business Postsome months ago pointing to a significant number of appeals of conditions attached to fire safety certificates by developers that were upheld by An Bord Pleanála, contrary to the advice of the Dublin fire service and other fire services. I understand these appeals generally related to more complex buildings, including buildings with underground car parks and buildings with multi-use occupancy, including nursing homes, apartment blocks, etc. Are the witnesses in a position to give us some information on that? My understanding is that in their endeavours to have international best practice at the forefront of the conditions of those fire certificates, they included certain requirements that were not necessarily statutory requirements under the 22-year-old technical guidance documents. I would like some information on that because we need to know whether such requirements should be included in the revised TGD B.
Second, I am delighted the witnesses referred to new building technologies. The committee is very interested in those technologies, both for environmental reasons and because of the speed aspect. However, it is absolutely vital, as a number of us have said, that as we move toward encouraging new building technologies, we do so in a way that provides the highest possible level of fire safety for the people who live and work in those buildings. We have had conversations on timber-based buildings, moving above 10 m, etc. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on the best way to ensure those kinds of buildings, particularly residential buildings, meet the best possible fire safety standards?
Third, reference was made to having updates perhaps every two to three years. Do the witnesses have any other observations on how to make sure we are in line at all times with best international and domestic practice?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
The Deputy's first question was about appeals to An Bord Pleanála. He is correct in what he said. We follow the process. An example I will give is nursing homes and the requirement for sprinklers, which is a position Dublin Fire Brigade took seven or so years ago. We conditioned sprinklers as part of the construction of new nursing homes. That was not legislatively required for the application of fire certificates but we were of the view it was necessary, given our knowledge of the occurrence of a number of incidents internationally and our own experience in responding to institutions such as nursing homes.
The benefit of sprinklers were pretty obvious to us so we made it a condition that there should be sprinklers in those premises. The owners or consultants did not agree so the only option was for this to go to An Bord Pleanála for decision. The Deputy is correct that we would have had a high incidence of not being successful in those cases. We were successful in some cases. The situation speaks volumes in terms of our interpretation of modern construction, our own operational knowledge and base and the international experience. I wish to make it clear that this was a decision taken by Dublin Fire Brigade.
It is worth noting that within the review it appears to us that our suggestion has been taken on board. While we do not believe it goes all the way to address our concerns about nursing homes, it goes a long way in acknowledging the benefits of sprinklers in a residential institution such as a nursing home. There are a number of areas, such as underground car parks, which would follow a similar line. I mean, from our experience and international experience, instances where we felt that the addition of additional measures was warranted, which resulted in us going to An Bord Pleanála. I have outlined the background, which indicates our lack of success.
I mentioned the new-build technology in my opening statement. We are enthusiastic and excited by a lot of new technology. We also understand the design that this can bring to a modern city and the country in enhancing modern constructions. The Deputy has rightly said that enhancement must not come at the cost of fire safety. We have had a number of engagements with various stakeholders on these technologies, whether it is light gauge steel or cross laminated timber. We have questions on both of these technologies and the variety of technologies. What is important is that they should be addressed within the TGD B or subsequent guidance. That will be important because, again, it goes back to ensuring there is consistency in the industry. We will need a level of guidance to drive that level of consistency for the fire authorities and building control officers.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Keeley, from his knowledge of where the review is going, think this is likely to be dealt with in the revised document, as published, or more likely to be dealt with subsequently through the review group?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
It is more likely to follow on from the publication. This technology is emerging. The requirements, from a fire safety perspective, is very much built on exploration, testing and certification and I am not sure whether we are quite there yet. I know, from our discussions with industry representatives, that they are very anxious to be able to demonstrate compliance and to know how the performance of these technologies will perform in a fire situation, which is crucial.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Keeley.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am sorry but I must keep everyone to time because we only have a short meeting today. I call Deputy Higgins.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank both fire officers for being here today and for sharing their expertise. I also thank all of their teams for everything that they do day in and day out to keep people safe across this country but particularly across Dublin, including my own local authority of South Dublin County Council. Both of our guests have been very articulate in describing why their experience, expertise and knowledge is so important. Their real life examples makes them best placed to provide feedback that shapes the review.
Mr. Keeley has outlined nine themes that should be included or strengthened in the final document. I ask him to please elaborate on what needs changing in those themes so that we can advocate on behalf of the fire brigade.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I will refer to the themes in the order in which I listed them starting with the regulatory impact analysis that mentions B5, which is access to facilities. Within the existing TGD B reference was made to the protection of life and property but the term "property" was omitted from the revised version, which led to us having the following two questions. Why? In addition, will there be unintended consequences for fire authorities by the omission of the word "property", particularly under the Fire Services Act?
The next theme is alternative designs and the fire safety engineering approach to compliance. What that means is that the TGD B will have certain limitations in how it will deal with assuring there is compliance for both designers and fire authorities. As there are buildings that are complex or very tall, which sit outside of the TGD B, then we feel that the guidance document should encompass that particular element or provide additional guidance outside of the TGD B.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
Again, that is to drive consistency. The next theme is sustainability in modern building practice, and I have touched on that issue. The theme concerns the MMCs. I would add that there are green walls and roofs, which are certainly a more popular element that we are seeing. They have some fire safety issues for us that we would like addressed within the TGD B as well.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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How can those safety issues be addressed?.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I am sure that people will have seen green walls throughout the city. The issue with green walls is fire spread. Again, there are, and can be, control measures placed on how green walls are constructed and, in particular, on how they are managed in terms of drying out, etc. but green walls are a means for fire spread.
The next theme is car parks. We have historical evidence both in this country and abroad of the implications of a car fire, particularly in an underground car park that is enclosed. We are looking at the strategies around ventilation but particularly at sprinkler systems and their use within underground car parks. I have mentioned the next theme of nursing homes, which is similar.
The next theme is the evacuation and ventilation strategies in residential buildings. This is an extensive theme that concerns the strategies and evacuation as buildings get higher, and how that is managed and how it works. It is the number of staircases that are available. It is the use of sprinklers within residential buildings. It is conflict because one wonders whether, as we go higher, we can provide that level of comfort for both people who seek to evacuate but also firefighters who need to go in, fight the fire and deal with the incident. That aspect also goes for the next theme, which is the vertical escape and fire fighting in residential buildings. That is on the premise of our process and procedures for evacuation as opposed to staying in place, which is a different strategy.
The next theme is common non-complex building types and scope. I touched on that issue by saying that the TGD B guidance will not cover all of the various building types. There will be buildings that will be outside the scope of the TGD B, which we believe should be incorporated. In particular, these are issues between buildings of between 30 m and 60 m, and buildings that are over 60 m in height and the differentiation between them.
The last theme is separate guidance, which is similar to the last theme. This theme refers to high-rise buildings that are greater than 60 m in height. That separate guidance would fall from some of the other bullet points that I have mentioned previously.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Keeley said in his opening statement: "Steel and concrete-type construction have their own issues with fire if not adequately addressed from a design perspective." What should happen from a design perspective?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
My comment relates to the protection of certain principles. Steel has huge tensile strength but when exposed to direct heat loses strength very quickly. The TGD B has guidance on how that is protected, what protection is afforded and how long that protection should last. As we frequently use those kinds of design principles, our engineers and staff are very used to engaging with consultants and designers on how to deal with these issues. Modern methods of construction are relatively new so it is a different element.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense and I thank both witnesses.
Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
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I am grateful to the witnesses, as I think we all are, for giving of their time and knowledge. It always helps us move forward with whatever agenda we have. My question is partly timber-related and concerns the effective prohibition of mass timber over three storeys. Considering that most of the First World is constructing for mass timber buildings of up to eight storeys, why are we so far behind given that our closest neighbour is constructing COT buildings of up to eight storeys - predominantly in London - and has similar building regulations. They are going over 20 storeys in the US. Based on the witnesses' vast experience, can they enlighten us how our regulations should move forward and what needs to change to enable the use of timber, which is a sustainable material compared to steel and concrete? Where do the witnesses see it going?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
The Deputy is right. The regulation is not there. I do not think we have any of those constructions on our books or that any of them have been built in Dublin. In principle, Dublin Fire Brigade is not against the use of timber. Timber has been used in construction for generations. These new regulations need to address where timber is used as a supporting column or structure. We would be anxious that those regulations do address it and the engagement with the manufacturers and the industry ensures they can guarantee the fire safety requirements of those products in a fire. That is what is missing at the moment. We are engaging with the industry and trying to educate ourselves about the performance of these products during a fire and how they would be used. In the absence of direct regulation, however, we cannot really move forward on it.
Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
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If the Department decided tomorrow that it would allow buildings over 30 m, I assume that would put Dublin Fire Brigade in a particular position. The fact that these buildings are being built in the UK and across Europe means the regulations are in place there. How difficult is it to mirror what they are doing? Why have we not got there yet? That is what I ask myself. It is not Dublin Fire Brigade. How come we are stuck?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I do not have the full answer to that. There are questions around the performance of the products. That is a healthy position where we are constantly learning. These are relatively new methods. It is right that we question them. I am sure the Department is questioning them. There are some concerns around second burn of columns where charring occurs on a portion of it, it falls away and it opens it up for second burning. We are aware of those issues but I cannot answer as to how and where it is at from the Department's perspective.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome our guests from Dublin Fire Brigade and thank them for the report, which raises many issues. We do not have all the answers but they are certainly very frank in setting out their issues. The witnesses identified areas and said they were in no order of priority so I presume they are all equal in priority and should be included and strengthened in the final document. They set them out, which was very helpful.
We would all be familiar with the terrible tragedy at Grenfell Tower. At that time and afterwards, there was much soul searching here. It was suggested that there did not appear to be a similar threat here but there needed to be a strengthening of the fire regulations. Eoghan Murphy was the Minister at the time and he commissioned a report on the Grenfell Tower fire's potential impact on Ireland and his responsibilities. That was done in June 2017. The report outlined many shortcomings, including fire prevention, protection of buildings and enforcement regulations, particularly around combustible cladding of buildings. An extensive audit was to be carried out across the local authority jurisdictions. I do not know how that was followed up. The witnesses might share their knowledge of that because it is an important concern that people relate to very much. It arises with regard to our challenges in getting higher densities, although we do not always have to have high-rise to have high density because there is a very subtle difference between the two, but that is a concern being expressed by some people. There is also a very substantial cost relating to health and safety requirements around apartments fed into standards, and rightly so, but that is a challenge and an issue for people involved in construction. Could the witnesses talk us through in terms of fire safety and the categories of buildings?
Another area of concern raised in this report was the potential exposure involving buildings providing sleeping accommodation because that is really important. People are sleeping in accommodation. These were identified as the ones in most urgent need of attention in terms of addressing them. The report dealt with hostels, short-term lets, bed-and-breakfast accommodation, student accommodation and dormitory accommodation, including boarding schools. It also included buildings subdivided into flats - older buildings with which Dublin Fire Brigade would be familiar, particularly in the city - and other sleeping accommodation buildings shared by unrelated persons because when you have a lot of people sharing accommodation, that is another complexity. There are also challenges around emergency and homeless accommodation, which is particularly challenging. I am more interested in hearing what the outcome of that report and all that engagement was. Can the witnesses assure us today that they are happy that all that has been followed through on? I would like to think they will be able to do that today because it is important.
Mr. Keeley is chief fire officer for Dublin fire services. Is he confident that he has the necessary resources and supports to fully carry out his functions and the remit for which he has a statutory responsibility? It is really important that we have that assurance and if he is not confident, I would like hear why he is not confident and what his needs are.
I live in Dún Laoghaire so I am perhaps more familiar with the Dublin scene. Could Mr. Keeley outline how he operates the services for the other three local authorities in Dublin? I understand he operates fire services for all four local authorities in Dublin, which is an important function. These local authorities have made a conscious decision to engage and have this collective shared service approach, which is a good one that makes sense. Could Mr. Keeley share his interplay or engagement collectively or individually with those local authorities? Perhaps there is a format for doing that. If so, could he share it with us?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I appreciate that. We have only a few minutes left.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will give two minutes.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will stay for the next round.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I will do my best to get through them. Regarding the audit that was commissioned, the national directorate for fire and emergency management drew up the audit of cladding buildings nationwide. Dublin Fire Brigade engaged in that audit. We discovered a small number of buildings and engaged with the owners regarding the type of cladding and where the cladding was identified as needing to be changed or altered - I think it was about 18 premises in total - a very small number of them required modification or changes. All but one of those fully engaged with us. There was one case where the property was vacant and we had trouble identifying the owner but subsequently we got to that. There was a very small number where that issue arose and there was nothing at the higher end of risk as far as we were concerned. We produced those audits several times in the years since that report was published as follow-up with the Department. That remains an ongoing piece of work.
We have a particular unit that was established within Dublin Fire Brigade to do an audit of those particular types of accommodation and we have engaged with the various stakeholders running those particular institutions to ensure that the fire safety standards, where we identify any deficiencies, are brought up to relevant standards. That is an ongoing piece of work, very well advanced at this stage, and we see an increase in the level and quality of those accommodations from a fire safety perspective as a result. Those are visits we engage in and follow up on, as I said, in respect of the standard.
There are a variety of resources from operational to fire safety to our engineers right across the brigade. This is a challenging time for personnel and recruitment. The market is very difficult. We have a small number of vacancies in our fire safety element, on which we intend to go to the market very shortly. We have a business case with the chief executive to strengthen and enlarge our fire safety element with additional engineers, which has been looked at favourably. That is in a process. We hope to go to the market in the coming weeks or months on that. As for our operational, we have a recruit class starting next week and another class scheduled to begin on 8 October, which will bring our firefighter numbers up. We have taken delivery of a brand-new turntable ladder, which is the first 42 m one in the State, and we have a second one on order, which will be with us in January. We have additional vehicles requested through the Department. I am in the process of getting sanction for two of them. That is a long way around to saying that the resources that are required are being provided and we constantly evaluate our needs. Dublin is a growing city. It is a challenging city. There are new risks constantly coming into the city, so we are constantly evaluating that risk. Where demand or resources are required, I have found the chief executives and the various councils forthcoming in addressing those requirements.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and join the others who have commended the great work done by firefighters in Dublin Fire Brigade and all across the country on behalf of all of us.
Following up on the 42 m ladder the brigade has and the other one being ordered and high-rise and taller buildings, is it now the case that all personnel have been trained in how to deal with fires in taller or high-rise buildings or is it just newer personnel? As for the kind of high-rise kit firefighters need for taller buildings, is that all being provided or what is the position on that? As for the one 42 m ladder and the other one on the way, do the witnesses think that will be sufficient in dealing with taller buildings or will more be needed?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
Fighting fires with ladders and external firefighting is a tool in the armoury of firefighters. The principal mechanism for firefighters should be internally, and the building should be built to the standard that allows firefighters to enter. Our turntable ladders are used for firefighting, rescue and a number of other tasks and, frankly, I do not see that we will ever have a ladder tall enough to reach all risks. That is not the purpose of ladders. They are another tool. The 42 m is a jump from 30 m, which is the height of the existing stock of ladders we have in Dublin and across the country. In short, yes, for the city and road infrastructure, 42 m is probably at the extreme end of what we need. London has received 60 m ladders. They have a different purpose and represent a different way of firefighting. I think 42 m is sufficient for our needs.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I referred to training.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
One of the surprises of the 42 m turntable ladder was the amount of training it required. It is certainly a lesson for me in that any switchover from equipment, while involving knowledge, brings with it a level of training. There was quite a considerable amount of training required on that. While we have had the 42 m ladder from the beginning of this year, it arrived for operational use in headquarters only last week, such was the level of training that is required. I am very confident that it is going in as a second turntable ladder into headquarters. That is the second response to allow more time for the operators to familiarise themselves with it, but the operators have been trained and are familiar with how to use it, and it will be in operation.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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But are all personnel trained in high-rise firefighting?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
We have a high-rise review group which is developing training courses for staff. We have a module which all new staff undertake as part of their induction and recruit training. That is for all officer upgrading, that is, somebody who is promoted is also facilitated with high-rise training. We are developing-----
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I am talking about the existing officers, though.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
Most of those go through phases, that is, there is promotion from sub-officer to station officer. Then you get that training. When you go from station officer to district officer, you get that training. We want to develop a final module which we can give to everybody, and that work is under way.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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If I may ask something specific about the Part B guidelines and the issue of smoke toxicity levels in building materials, that was one of several issues that came out of the Grenfell Tower fire. One of the main issues was the smoke toxicity levels in some of the insulation materials. The majority of the insulation materials in Grenfell consisted of polyisocyanurate. A 2019 study showed that 1 kg of that material is enough to fill one normal-sized room with lethal smoke. There was more than 19,000 kg of that material in Grenfell Tower. According to a 2004 Building Research Establishment report in the UK, only two countries in Europe do not have regulations on smoke toxicity levels in their building materials, the UK being one and Ireland being the other. Does Mr Keeley have a view on that in the context of the building regulations and whether they should regulate smoke toxicity levels in building materials that are used?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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In the submission Mr. Keeley made is there anything about smoke toxicity levels?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It is useful that Mr. Keeley is on the record as saying that that would be beneficial. It is very concerning that in our building regulations we are an outlier in not covering smoke toxicity, which poses a huge danger to residents in the context of fires and to personnel in fire brigade units. It is an unnecessary risk we are taking in this country compared with other countries. A lot of things went wrong in Grenfell, but if the insulation materials had not had those smoke toxicity levels, many more people would have survived that fire.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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This is exceptionally interesting. To go back to the issue of the fire safety certificates and the complex buildings, it is positive that Mr. Keeley thinks the revised technical guidance document is moving in the right direction. From the brigade's own assessment, I think about 80% of the appeals by developers against the conditions that were proposed by the brigade were upheld by the board. That seems to be a very high level. From the outside, I wonder is it the case that, on the one hand, there are independent fire safety professionals recommending the highest possible fire safety protection and, on the other hand, there is always a pull around cost, viability etc. Would it be unfair of me to assume that that was part of the consideration? There seems to be no fire safety reason why the proposed conditions would not be accepted. Is it that there is that kind of tension? We see this in other areas of our discussions, in that there is the highest possible standard and then there are those arguments around cost, viability and so on. I ask that question not just to look back at those An Bord Pleanála decisions but also to look forward to the technical guidance document review itself. Are there those same tensions there? That is my first question.
My second picks up on Deputy Duffy's point. If the conversation within the Department and the brigade is we would like to start to change our building regulations to allow, not high-rise buildings, but even mid-rise buildings - below 20 m, for example - I presume, from your point of view, that it is a straightforward issue whereby if that is the direction of travel, here are the fire mitigation measures in terms of the number of stairwells, the number of escapes, the kinds of firebreaks etc.
If Mr. Keeley has anything to share with the committee, we are actively looking at a report on that in the context of another piece of work we are doing. It would be interesting to hear the witnesses' perspectives on what they are looking at in other jurisdictions in terms of what is best practice and what is required. It is clear they are saying that it is not the case that it cannot be done but that if it is being done, protections are required. I am interested in their view on that too.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
On the tensions around costs, I suspect that some of that 80% is cost. I would be reluctant to put an exact percentage on it. There is another factor we are trying to address in Dublin Fire Brigade, which is early engagement with planners. We find that if a planner sets out their stall for a development, whether a nursing home, underground car park or whatever else, they are operating under the current regulations. That is fair. When they discover Dublin Fire Brigade is looking for some additional components to that structure, it obviously can come as a surprise. If that is on us, then we have to address it. We have had a number of workshops with the industry. We try to engage with it to ensure there are no surprises. That intervention with planners at the early stage would help, where they at least consider designing in what we are asking, depending on the nature of the build.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Keeley indicated that Dublin Fire Brigade has been talking about the need for sprinkler systems in these more complex buildings for around seven years. Nobody today should be surprised to get a fire certificate from Dublin Fire Brigade requesting a sprinkler system for a complex building. Sprinkler systems increasingly are much more cost effective. The cost is coming down despite the high quality. That might have been a good argument from the applicant's or planner's side five or six years ago. I presume it is not a surprise today.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
It is not so much now but certainly historically, that could account for some of the high percentage. Most of the professionals would be aware of Dublin Fire Brigade's requirements, particularly with nursing homes, so it is not so much of a surprise. Some of our asks are around the two stairways. We have raised this issue and we would be on the record in that regard. We operate a system where we evacuate. We do not have a stay-in-place procedure. There are some tensions, as the Deputy would put it, relating to the cost of that additional staircase. The question, particularly with high-rise, will be whether it is a second staircase and sprinklers or a second staircase or sprinklers. That is one of the big questions.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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For the second staircase, is Mr. Keeley talking about buildings between 10 m and 20 m, or above 20 m?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Between 10 m and 30 m or 10 m and 20 m, is the ask for sprinkler systems?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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All of this works on the assumption that the staircases are internal to the building. Some of the new designs we see from architects in other jurisdictions, particularly low-rise mid-density or mid-rise high-density show a return to more external staircases or landings. I presume, from a fire safety point of view, there are advantages to external exits and stairwells being built into the design, as opposed to assuming everything is walking in a door and up a lift shaft and down a stairwell internally.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Finally, I want to pick up on Deputy O'Callaghan's final question about combustible cladding and combustible insulation materials. Is it Dublin Fire Brigade's expectation that those areas, which do not currently have clarity in the existing technical guidance documents, are likely to be addressed in the revised document?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for leaving early but I have to go to the Dáil.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I am conscious that I asked a lot of questions. Is Dublin Fire Brigade confident it has the necessary resources, personnel and supports in place to deal with fire safety and protect life and property within its jurisdiction? Clearly, fire safety and the protection of life and property are both important. Most people do not draw a distinction between them. I would like that teased out. A lot of people are interested in the Dublin Fire Brigade's appearance at this committee. I had a few emails today about it. I think it is important for people who are listening in. They may not be present but they have a vested interest to listen in for a range of reasons. I am always conscious of that when we are teasing out issues like this. There are operational issues and there are resource issues. There was a reference to Dublin Fire Brigade trying to make a business case. Is that business case made to the four individual chief executives? The four in Dublin Fire Brigade's area are Dublin City Council, Dún Laoghaire and Rathdown Council, Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council. Is there collaboration with a representative of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, or the city or county manager? Who is the direct contact of engagement with those four local authorities?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I respond to the Dublin city chief executive on a regular basis. Where business cases, significant policy or increased resources are flagged, my first port of call would be the Dublin city chief executive. I would then be invited to speak with the four Dublin chief executives who hold a regular meeting. I present my business case and the explanation and reason for it to the four chief executives. It is generally a collaborative decision, at that table, in relation to advancing any of the policies or projects that may be within the requirement level for Dublin Fire Brigade.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is not the Department. Mr. Keeley deals with the Dublin city chief executive and the other chief executives. What if he does not feel he has the necessary support or funding? He has to make a professional judgment. He is trained and charged with this responsibility of protecting life and property. Where is his next line?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I am sure he is tuning in, and I hope he is tuning in.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I have a very good relationship with the Department and the national directorate for fire and emergency management, which provides support to fund provision of vehicles and capital funding for stations, etc. That relationship is born from many years of engagement with the Department and the provision of fire vehicles and the turntable ladders as I have mentioned.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is Mr. Keeley telling he is happy, in as far as he can be, in terms of the infrastructure and plant? They are up to speed and he is reasonably satisfied that Dublin Fire Brigade has the resources, plant, mechanisms and machinery to carry out a professional firefighting service for Dublin city and county.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
As the Senator knows, we are operating in a city and county that is expanding and growing. We have plans in place for expansion and we have plans in place for the development of the fire service. It will not and cannot be static. We see the business case for fire prevention on the engineering section. I also see the provision of a number of new stations in coming years. We are looking at the provision and expansion of our aerial appliances. For example, we are in discussion with the trade unions to find a way of increasing the number of aerial appliances across the city. I want to assure the committee and the citizens of Dublin that Dublin Fire Brigade has a vision. It has a vision for expansion. It is a bigger and growing brigade, and I believe I have the support of the chief executives to make that happen.
Unfortunately, it can never happen quickly enough and I can never have enough resources - I am in want constantly - but as we make plans and put them into practice, I have the support of the chief executives and the councils. We are putting plans in place to provide the additional resources that we will require in the coming years.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I understand it is more than just the expansion of the physical fire stations as such. Recently, I looked at a schedule produced as part of a press release by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, with priorities A1, B1, C1 and so forth. Some of the local authorities and stations seemed to be falling back. I do not wish to name any specific one, as that is not necessarily appropriate and I do not want a league table of local authorities or fire stations. Sharing the vision at some stage would be helpful. A vision or a plan is a great thing, but it needs to be shared with the public.
Speaking as someone who has lived in Dublin, I join with others in saying that the Dublin Fire Brigade is an exemplary and professional service. I have never had to call it out, but the public is generally very much supportive of it and value the service. I served for many years on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, so I understand the dynamic of the four local authorities and the collective shared services initiative.
This meeting has been most helpful, as has the review of the fire regulations. I thank the witnesses for attending and sharing their expertise and experience. I wish the Dublin Fire Brigade well and continued success.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I wish to be clear on the role of the fire service in regards to a planning application for change of use. A paper-based planning application is received. As part of that process, the fire service reviews the application and makes its views known to the planners. Is that the process?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
The planning application process is separate from the building control application process. To build a building, one needs to apply for planning, but one also needs to comply with the building regulations and building control regulations. It is an automated process now and someone can make an application on the building control management system, which was introduced in 2020 and was a significant step forward in how we did things. As part of the application process, we analyse the plans and reports and determine compliance with building regulations.
Mr. Keeley referred to high-rise and complex buildings. We are speaking to planners at an early stage of a development's design process – before they get planning permission – so that, when they come to the fire certificate process, which is late in the design cycle, they will know that we will be looking for sprinklers in certain types of building.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The building control application process and the planning system are separate. Someone can have planning permission granted prior to the next step of building control approval and fire certification, but they are all needed before development can commence.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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At the construction or completion stage, is it the architect who signs off on the building's compliance with the drawings that were sent in and on which basis the fire certificate was granted?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
Yes. In 2014, the building control amendment regulations, BCAR, were introduced. They placed more responsibility on designers, builders and developers for constructing buildings in accordance with the applications they had made and the building regulations. It is the responsibility of the assigned certifier to sign off on the building and provide oversight and supervision during construction to ensure that the building is built in accordance with the building regulations.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is the BCAR system.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Ms O'Brien. I just wanted to clear that up.
In his opening statement, Mr. Keeley stated that the building regulations were not prescriptive but performance based. What did that mean?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
The building regulations are B1 to B5 and they are not prescriptive. Under them, internal fire sprays and a means of escape shall be provided to a building. TGD B provides prescriptive guidance on how to achieve prima faciecompliance with the building regulations. This is why a great deal of reliance is laid on TGD B in the design of these buildings – it provides prima faciecompliance with the regulations.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That was a helpful explanation. The regulations are non-prescriptive, but the technical guidance documents set out how to achieve what is required by them.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When examining modern methods of construction and so forth, a couple of groups appeared before us. I found the question of who it was up to to decide changes in regulations confusing. If the Minister were to say that he wanted to permit medium-or-high-rise buildings in cross-laminated timber, CLT, the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office, NBCMSO, would have to formulate building regulations and the technical guidance documents would have to show how to achieve those. Are these the steps that would need to be followed?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
I do not believe the regulation will change too much – it is all-encompassing – but the guidance under TGD B is being updated at the moment. If we use that guidance, we can determine prima faciecompliance with the regulations. We suggest that the commentary on CLT and other modern methods of construction should be added to TGD B to allow a method of compliance with the building regulations.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is great. I am following along so far.
There was a conference in Avondale recently that Deputy Duffy and I attended. It was about building with timber, including CLT. It was the opening of the Avondale Coillte construction project. Clause 3.2.5.2 seemed to be referred to as inhibiting building higher than 10 m in timber construction. Does it need to be changed? What I gathered from the presentation was that this clause had travelled in time with us but had not kept pace with modern timber construction methods and did not take into account how timber could be as fire resistant as conventional materials. Will Ms O'Brien guide me on this?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I was just reading it. It applies to compartment floors, which I presume are timber floors in this instance, that require 60 minutes or more of resistance. It reads: "should be constructed of non-combustible materials". Is that compulsory? The word "should" is used, but is that just the way the clause was written at the time and it has travelled through each iteration of the guidance?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is one of the problematic clauses. Actually, perhaps it is not problematic. It may have suited its purposes at the time, but perhaps we have moved on since then and now need to address it.
We have discussed the issue of two staircases, one staircase with sprinklers, etc. When carrying out a risk assessment, one considers the likelihoods and impacts. If we were to remove combustible fuels from buildings by getting rid of open fires and gas cookers and by going all electric instead, that would reduce some of the fire risk. I am referring in particular to converting commercial centres' second storeys and above for living over the shop. When making a risk-based assessment, can the fact that there will be no fossil fuels – gas, coal or oil – and it will be all electric be taken into account? Would that reduce the risk and, consequently, some of the measures that would have to be taken?
Ms Mary O'Brien:
We consider each design on its own merits. Every design is different. We consider the buildings as they present and assess the risks inherent in them. At design stage, it is difficult to limit a building to certain uses for its lifetime.
That is why technical guidance document B, and the prescriptive guidance in it, tries to cover the eventualities, to minimise the amount of deviation from that through the lifetime of the building.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We had architects in about two weeks ago who talked about the regulations in Germany and said we should transpose those regulations in the Irish regulations. What I gather from what Ms O'Brien has said is that it is the technical guidance we need to change. The regulations are okay because they are just there to make sure we have the safe functioning buildings, and it is the guidance on how to achieve that which we have to change. It is not necessary the regulations.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Fire escapes have been an issue, especially where there are terraced commercial buildings and fire escapes have to be put in at the rear. The witnesses have said there are pros and cons to external fire escapes. Is security one of the things that comes up there, in that there is external staircase access to second and third floors?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
Security is a factor. However, from a fire safety perspective it is about the ability for an enclosed space to be protected, versus an open space which can be impacted by fire from several different floors. If the stairwell is open, the question is whether it can be impacted by fire impinging on that stairwell from one of the windows or from another door, therefore impacting the possibility of evacuation or access by firefighters. It is about how well escape routes and access can be protected and if that level of protection is equal, whether internal or external. It is very much a design constraint depending on the building itself. There are a number of factors but it is predominantly about the safety and protection of the exit route. If it is an exit route to afford evacuation for residents or access to firefighters, it has to be protected. The challenge is different depending on whether it is external or internal.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is very helpful. I thank the witnesses for that. I will let Deputy Gould in for the last slot.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate the opportunity to listen to the witnesses' knowledge and insight. There is an issue I am concerned about and I have been speaking to firefighters in Cork about it. The witnesses might give me their thoughts on derelict buildings. In the last couple of years, numerous derelict buildings in Cork have gone on fire repeatedly, on more than one occasion. I personally believe that the owners of these properties have a responsibility to ensure these properties are safe. Firefighters are going out and putting themselves in harm's way when these buildings should have been secured in the first place. That is not only when it comes to tackling fires but sometimes they might have to go in there when these buildings are unsafe. We had an issue in Cork on North Main Street where a building nearly collapsed. There were other buildings that did collapse. There have been a number of fires in places like the Good Shepherd Convent, which went up multiple times, St. Kevin's Hospital, Vita Cortex and the Sunset Ridge Motel. Firefighters had to go to fight fires at some of these properties, especially St. Kevin's, the Good Shepherd and the Sunset Ridge, numerous times. Is that something that happens in Dublin or nationally? Is there some recommendation that should be brought in to require the person or the company that owns these properties to ensure they are safe so they are not putting firefighters at risk?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
It is less of a problem in the recent past than historically. That is for multiple reasons. The Deputy is absolutely right. When a vacant property burns, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is going to become habitual if intervention does not take place. That is where you have antisocial behaviour. There are a number of aspects associated with that fire. We have a good relationship with the various local authorities, which generally do a good job of shoring up properties. Preventing access to the building as much as possible goes a long way to preventing that long-term damage. It is certainly something that has reduced in Dublin in recent years. One of the advantages for us is local knowledge. If there are buildings that are habitually set on fire, usually local crews are aware of that. Where we can, we make them aware of it. Accessing a building such as that has unique hazards. Where we have knowledge that floors may be missing or partially missing, for example, we would try to get that level of intelligence to crews where we can. The biggest benefit is early and adequate shoring to prohibit and prevent access and malicious damage to the building.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I believe that whoever owns those buildings should have a legal responsibility because firefighters are going out and putting their lives at risk. We have seen it in Cork multiple times. It is good to hear that the problem has reduced in Dublin but I imagine it is still a danger or a risk.
There is another issue I wanted to raise. The witnesses are probably aware of it. I am talking about the closure of the Ballincollig fire station in Cork and the whole issue of retained firefighting staff. Is that feasible now in an urban setting? The witnesses might enlighten me. There might be a place for retained fire staff but Ballincollig is now part of Cork city. Cork City Council has been trying to recruit there for almost two years but it cannot get people to apply to be a retained firefighter. Ballincollig is different from a rural area. People in the town might be working in the city, in Little Island, Ringaskiddy or anywhere. According to the regulations, if you want to apply for a retained firefighter position, you have to be on call and you have to be local. As a result, the fire brigade station in Ballincollig has closed and the existing fire stations in Cork city are having to deal with that. Cork doubled in size when the boundary extension happened a few years ago.
Related to that, what is the target of pumpsper capita?How many people would there be for one pump? How many would be in Dublin?
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
I am not all that familiar with the issues relating to the Ballincollig station. However, Dublin Fire Brigade has two retained stations so we are familiar with the retained system and the retained service. I am also aware that there is an ongoing review of the retained service nationally and it is subject to some industrial action and discussions that are ongoing as we speak. We have two retained services in Dublin and they are extremely busy. I understand the challenges for personnel who operate as retained firefighters. It is an extremely challenging position. We have been fortunate that recruitment within our two retained stations has not been a problem, thankfully. We have been fortunate enough to have been able to recruit and also retain the personnel we have, who tend to stay with us quite a long time. Our problems may be somewhat different to other parts of the retained service but I do understand that it is extremely challenging to recruit and retain staff and I understand the challenges those staff are undertaking in terms of modern life and the commitment they must make. I am very conscious of that.
What was the second part of the Deputy's question?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Listening to the witnesses, it sounds like they have been very lucky to get the retained fire staff. We have not been so lucky in Cork. The other question was about pumps and how many pumps we needper capita.
Mr. Dennis Keeley:
The national directorate sets the level of standards for a response, which is related to the time of arrival. In Dublin we have 19 full-time pumps, which are available 24-7. We have a mix of the full-time stations across the city and county and our two retained services with headquarters in Townsend Street and Tara Street. That is where our centre is.
We have that mix of full-time and retained stations which share the operational response for our predetermined attendances in the north of the county. In general, in terms of the operation, part of the review is looking at the sustainability of the service, when to shift from a retained service to a full-time one and what volume or amount of work is required for that to happen. That will form part of research and review for us in the north of County Dublin, where our two retained stations are located. The issues in Cork are obviously specific to the area and they can be very challenging. I appreciate that.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We really do appreciate Ms O'Brien and Mr. Keeley taking the time out of their busy day to assist us. It is an area of work that the committee is concentrating on because we want to see these changes in construction methods in use. On behalf of the entire committee, I thank our guests and all members of the fire services, not just in Dublin but across the country, for the incredibly important work they do. I thank those in both the full-time and retained service. Some committee members come from constituencies that do not have a full-time service. I express our gratitude not just for the emergency work officers do in terms of emergency fire attendance and emergency ambulance services when things go wrong, but also for the other work the fire service does in the area of building control, fire prevention and community work in order to stop things from going wrong. It is very much appreciated all round. I thank our guests for their time.