Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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We are in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputies Funchion, Cairns, Murnane O'Connor and Brady and Senators Seery Kearney and Clonan. The item for consideration is engagement with the chairperson-designate of Oberstown Children's Detention Campus. At this session, we are joined by Ms Koulla Yiasouma, who has been nominated by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, to the position of chairperson-designate. Following engagement with the committee, she will soon take up the position. Ms Yiasouma is very welcome to the meeting.

I will deal with a few housekeeping matters before we begin. I advise everyone that the chat function on Microsoft Teams should only be used to make the team on-site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise during the meeting and should not be used to make general comments or statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member, therefore, who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, and prior to making a contribution, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

In advance of Ms Yiasouma making her opening statement, I wish to advise her of the following concerning parliamentary privilege. I draw her attention to the fact that witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. This completes the housekeeping matters.

I invite Ms Yiasouma to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for the introduction. I thank the committee for the invitation to engage with its members today. It is an honour to be the chairperson-designate of the board of management of Oberstown Children's Detention Campus. I will tell the committee a little about myself. I am a qualified social worker. Initially, I worked as a probation officer in England and then briefly in Northern Ireland, where I have lived for 29 years. I continue to be registered as a social worker with the Northern Ireland Social Care Council. Regarding my ethnic background, I am a Greek-Cypriot by culture, but I was born and brought up in London. As I said, I have lived for over half my life in the North.

Over the last 25 years, I have worked to realise the rights of children and young people in Northern Ireland, particularly those involved with the criminal justice system. I led an NGO for 17 years which supported young people who had care experience or been involved in the criminal justice system to improve their employability through work experience, training and education. We were also the primary policy and advocacy organisation for young people in the criminal justice system and we engaged with all relevant decision-makers in Northern Ireland, the UK and Europe more broadly to ensure best practice was implemented and the voices of those young people involved in the system were heard.

In 2015, I was appointed by the then First and Deputy First Ministers to be the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People. My term ended in March of this year. Like the Ombudsman for Children in the South, it was my role to safeguard the rights of children and young people, monitoring and advising on every aspect of government. Naturally, I continued to work with the youth justice system in that job, supporting young people with individual complaints, conducting formal investigations and monitoring and reviewing policy, legislation and services.

My career goal has always been to demonstrate that being child's rights compliant is essential for us to have an effective youth justice system, one that keeps the community safe, is able to respond to the needs of victims and that enables young people to overcome the consequences of childhood experiences through those interventions supporting them to develop alternative behaviours. Rights-compliant youth justice systems use international frameworks and robust evidence to inform how they respond to children in conflict with the law.

I will start with the aspect of robust evidence.

That requires drawing on academic research and often the first port of call for me over the past two decades has been the work of Professor Ursula Kilkelly, my predecessor in this role. Her work and advice have been key in informing my own advocacy on issues, particularly the best interest principle and custody for children. It is therefore a huge honour to be succeeding Ursula in this role and to progress the work that has been taking place in Oberstown over the past decade.

Regarding international standards, incorporating the Havana rules on juveniles deprived of their liberty, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, general comment No. 24 states that where detention is unavoidable the State should make it count for children. Detention should address their educational and training needs, improve their health and well-being, support relationships with their family and community, and provide an environment for leisure, social and sporting activities. Systems, policies and procedures should be in place to ensure that detention is a safe place for young people and that restrictive practices are used sparingly. Finally, international standards require that there are independent and rigorous monitoring, supervision and complaints mechanisms to protect the rights of children in detention, holding the detention system accountable, on behalf of society, for the care of children there.

The reason I applied for this role is that there is clear evidence that Oberstown under the leadership of Professor Kilkelly, the board of management, the current director, Mr. Damien Hernon and his predecessor, and the wider staff and management teams, has made significant progress to ensure that the centre complies with these standards for which Oberstown has gained an international reputation. My ambition is to build on this.

Moving on to the campus itself, as the committee will be aware Ireland ratified the UNCRC in 1992 which, along with other rights instruments, is explicit that detention must be a measure of last resort, imposed only for the shortest appropriate period of time. This provision is explicitly recognised in section 96 of the Children Act 2001 and a range of community-based sanctions are now in place to divert young people from offending in general and from detention in particular. The Children Act makes clear that the children for whom no suitable alternative is available and who are placed on a detention or remand order in Oberstown are entitled to a placement that provides for their needs across the key areas of care, education, health, work on offending behaviour and preparation for leaving. Indeed, these are the goals of Oberstown under the legislation and they form the basis for the model of care known as CEHOP - Care, Education, Health, Offending Behaviour and Preparation for leaving. That model is designed to ensure that child-centred and integrated placement planning is core to the time young people spend in detention.

More recently, and building on this approach, the Oberstown board of management adopted the children’s rights policy framework with the consent of the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth under the Children Act. The framework sets out the rules that govern the campus, the rights to which all young people are entitled while in Oberstown, and the duties on staff, management and the board to meet those needs. Importantly, this framework informed the new judgment framework adopted by the Health Information Quality Authority, HIQA, which inspects Oberstown annually.

The continuous and substantive improvements in the care provided to young people in Oberstown has been achieved through the work of staff and management on the campus and is clearly evidenced in the HIQA reports, the most recent of which was undertaken in November 2022. These reports are published annually and stand as a detailed and objective record of all that has been achieved over several years in this most challenging of environments. Of course, they also highlight where progress still needs to be made.

The board of management comprises me as chairperson and 12 other members, with representation and nominations from staff, the local community, relevant Government Departments and agencies and five members appointed through the Public Appointments Service, PAS. I was also appointed through PAS. It is apparent that the board is hardworking and a recent independent review concluded that it demonstrates the highest standards of compliance with the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies and governance standards more generally. I am looking forward to leading and working with the board as we build on this.

Oberstown has a budget of €27 million with a staff of 266 full-time equivalents, including residential social care workers and night supervising officers who bring exceptional care and skill to their work with the young people. The campus has an occupancy certificate of 46 young people, 40 boys and 6 girls, and in 2021, there were 102 young people on campus through the year, with an average daily population of 31. While the numbers vary, the majority of young people are in Oberstown on detention orders.

Oberstown has a statutory obligation to provide educational, training and other programmes and facilities for children referred to it by the court in a manner that embeds an ethos focused on the care, health, education and long-term welfare of those children. Oberstown's records show that while children are there because of their offending, they often have adverse childhood experiences in their backgrounds such as abuse, trauma, domestic abuse, parental mental ill-health and parental drug and alcohol misuse, which failed to be addressed throughout their lives. Often they also come from our most socially and economically deprived areas. To be able to address these issues requires a multi-agency approach and wraparound service, of which Oberstown is one element. The campus is in a unique position to be able to give young people the building blocks so that they can re-enter their communities and families where possible. This unique insight into the lives of the young people and the effectiveness of policies, legislation and services can support the wider children’s system to change and develop.

In accordance with the Oberstown 2022 to 2027 strategy published last year, the centre will continue to develop its model and will publish outcomes that demonstrate the impact that it makes in the following areas: providing safe and effective care of children under the CEHOP model; developing successful partnerships to do its work; incorporating the voice of young people; ensuring that staff enjoy their work and feel safe and supported; having sufficient resources that are used effectively and efficiently; adhering to best practice standards of governance; and ensuring that the campus is sustainable.

I am at the beginning of a four-year term and I look forward to engaging with the committee throughout my tenure as chair.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Yes, of course.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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That is for adult prisons.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I will put a caveat on everything I am about to say with the fact that I have not joined the board yet. I will join next week on 1 June. I will answer the questions as best I can. The Senator is right. The minimum age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is 12, unless the child has committed the most serious of offences. I see a head being shaken. I can have that conversation very happily when it is ten. A ten-year-old or 11-year-old who commits a most serious crime would end up in Oberstown. I think I am right to say that there is nobody of that age at the moment. The average age of young people in Oberstown in 16. Most of them are in that older age group. If memory serves me, I think the youngest is 14 but we can get that information.

The Senator spoke about violence. In my view, Oberstown should not be compared to a prison. It should be compared to a children's home where the doors are locked. It is what we call a secure children's home. When one looks at the figures and reads the HIQA reports, one can see that violence between children, and between children and staff has decreased. It is always inevitable. Wherever there are groups of kids together it is going to happen. To help answer the question on age, Oberstown is arranged with house units. It has separate units, so it does not have big dormitories. I think it has units of eight. They are separated in accordance with needs. If two young people know each other, and are adversarial or in conflict they will be put into separate units. That diminishes the violence. When it comes to funding, I make no apologies for the €27 million. When the State decides it needs to lock up a child it has a responsibility to care for that child in the best way it can. I have not interrogated the budget. In one year's time I will be able to stand over it. Having looked at the figures, €19 million of that €27 million is spent on staff. This is a staff-heavy service. It is 24 hours per day, seven days per week. The punishment for young people is losing their liberty, and then we need to care for them. I understand there is work ongoing around cost. It is difficult to measure that. Once that has been completed it will be made available. On the success rate, it is very difficult to ask a place like Oberstown to stop a young person offending forever. As I have stated, bearing in mind the nature and background of the young people we are talking about this requires a systemic approach. As Oberstown has developed its practice and model of care it needs to be able to demonstrate its outcomes. This is what I see happening in its next phase of its development. At the moment there are no statistics on recidivism or success. I can see that the work has been to make sure the quality of care is as good as it should be. The next phase is to provide the evidence that it helps young people progress in their lives. That is what I hope to do in the next four years.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I welcome Ms Yiasouma. I am fascinated by her background. Although this is not a job interview, I think occasions like this afford us a little opportunity to have some perspective.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

That is the purpose.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I know Ms Yiasouma has led an NGO called Include Youth. I speak as a Deputy who is constantly thinking of ways of keeping people, not out of detention, but out of care so they are not under lock and key. What do we need to do? What interventions do we need to make, and how old do young do people need to be when we make those interventions? Does Ms Yiasouma have any observations from her own experience working as a probation officer, in youth services and as a social worker? Could she share any of those that would give us some perspective? The State is always reactive. I speak for myself, but this committee is proactive in terms of advocating for children. It works with the Ombudsman for Children and promulgates legislation that ensures the rights of the child are absolutely sacrosanct. Does she have any perspectives or observations on the type of early interventions this State, which is a small country, can make. I would love to hear those.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

That is a huge question.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am sorry.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

That is a big question particularly for someone who has worked in another jurisdiction. I know there is some good work going on in early intervention and prevention led by Tusla and the Department. That is what I meant when I spoke of the unique insight Oberstown has into the lives of the young people who are there. Not all factors will be in common, but there will be some common factors like I said. They will have had some sort of trauma in their background. They will have been in families where there has been domestic abuse. They may be in families where there has been parental mental ill-health that has not been treated and responded to. They may well have had an education system that did not meet their needs, and was not flexible enough to meet their needs. They will live in poverty. They will often come from poorer communities. I speak for what I have seen in the North. Until you have a system that sees the child as an individual deserving of his or her rights, that breaks down the barriers of poverty and makes education more flexible, that is able to intervene on things like speech and language and parental support in a way that does not label parents, then we are consigning children to a very difficult background.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I apologise, but what does Ms Yiasouma mean by that?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

By consigning children to a difficult background?

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Well, labelling and so on. Can she expand on that?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Again, I am speaking about the North.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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That is her personal experience.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Sometimes when parents go to parenting programmes, there is a feeling that is because they are bad parents. The scariest thing I have ever done was bring a baby home. My baby, not just any old baby. I had worked with lifers. I had done work in the Maze Prison. I brought my daughter, my little bundle, home.

I had a husband who was supportive and an extended family who answered the phone at 3 o'clock in the morning when we did not know what to do with her. That is the scariest thing I have ever done. Being a parent is the scariest thing a middle-class woman such as me has ever done; I can only imagine if someone does not have the supports I was privileged enough to have what it would be like. Yes, you may need to engage with other parenting programmes, but we need not to pretend that is because you are a bad parent. It is just because we all need a bit of help. We need to stop judging people and families who struggle and we need to be able to give them the hand they need. That is, again, being very general.

What happens? As I said, some young people, regardless of background, may do horrible things, and Oberstown is there for them. If, however, we had good early intervention and prevention services at every age and stage, we might not have 40 young people in Oberstown today. I say that as somebody just coming into the Republic of Ireland to do some work.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Deputy Creed is next and Senator Ruane will be after him.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Lest you need to ask, Chairman, for confirmation, I am on the campus.

I concur with the two previous speakers that we have a very suitably qualified, experienced chair-designate and I wish Ms Yiasouma every success in her role. On a lighter note, as a professed lifetime Gooner, which I am myself-----

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Great.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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-----she could not but be eminently qualified for such a position, and I wish her well.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Deputy Creed has just lost her the job.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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He has not impressed this Spurs fan with that intervention.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I think the sympathy towards me has just gone up.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I will not advise Deputy Sherlock as to what the chair-designate's definition of success in a given football calendar is if he is a Spurs supporter, but I do think we have somebody who is eminently qualified.

I have two questions. Ms Yiasouma mentioned in her address that significant progress had been made and it was her ambition to build on it. Maybe she could give us a flavour, looking in from the outside, as to what she believes to be not so much the remaining steps, because I think it is always a journey of continuous improvement, but the immediate steps in which she might be interested in continuing that progress or her priorities on that journey.

The second question I wish to raise is probably more philosophical. We live in a very materialistic society. I think particularly of young people and the pressures they face in terms of the always-on social media and the always-on exposure to endless advertisements for things they want, whether the latest iPhone or the latest pair of runners. Does the chair-designate agree that a missing piece in some young people's lives is some form of spiritual guidance and leadership? I am not making a case for a particular spiritual direction but I would like to know, in the context of leading Oberstown detention centre, if Ms Yiasouma sees a role under her stewardship for appropriate spiritual guidance for young people. Whether in Oberstown or not, it is something that has diminished significantly in people's lives generally, probably more so in young people's lives in more recent times, and I am not sure that is a good thing. The world is not just about material or physical things; it is about values and appropriate spiritual leadership. I make the point in the broadest possible sense. I am not being prescriptive in that regard but I think that is generally missing or less prevalent than it used to be and probably is something from which young people, in particular, could benefit. I would like to know the chair-designate's views on that.

I concur with others that we have found somebody who can do a very good job. I wish Ms Yiasouma well. It is not an easy task. She will carry the can in public for Oberstown in the accountability sense. She undertakes a very responsible, important job, and I wish her well with it.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I tried, when I was Commissioner for Children and Young People in Northern Ireland, to get every child to be an Arsenal supporter and I failed. I may try in Oberstown.

The progress Oberstown has made in the past decade, as has been recognised, has been quite remarkable. It is a matter of continuing with that and making sure that young people have the best care and that the centre is able to respond to the needs the young people bring at any given time. That is a matter of always being alive to the issues they have and what is going on for them. It is a matter of being able to implement all the recommendations of the latest HIQA inspection, which were not about the quality and level of care but more about the quality of record-keeping and recording of decisions. I would like to see that developed. There is also something in the HIQA report about staffing and staff feeling a little overworked, so it is a matter of making sure that staffing levels are healthy. As I said, one of the strategic objectives is that staff enjoy their work and feel safe and fulfilled in their work.

I referred when I answered a previous question to the outcomes. Oberstown is able to demonstrate the impact it makes in the lives of the young people it seeks to serve and that it helps them along that journey. Not only does it help individuals, however; it also uses the information and the insight it has to influence the broader system, as I have said. That is where I think the next phase is, but that is my thinking before I start. In six months, that will obviously be adapted. It is an iterative process so it will evolve.

As for spirituality, I have worked with young people involved with the criminal justice system since I qualified nearly 35 years ago and I feel that young people do have a value base. Sometimes the disconnect is in the sense of belonging. They also often feel like they belong in their communities but it is whether they have the connection to the broader world because the world others them because they are poor, because they come from that family, that school or that community, because they have that disability or whatever. I have seen young people who have made a connection with a religion, a sport, a talent, a piece of art or a job and I have seen the light come on for them and seen that spark, but that spark has always been there. I say this a lot about young people in these circumstances: they are the funniest and most resilient group of children I have ever come across. In my previous role, I met many children. I have never laughed as much as I have laughed with those kids. They have ambitions and hopes and they do know the difference between right and wrong; it is just that they are not always given the support to stay on the right side of the line. Yes, some people should have a spiritual life, and that should be open to them. I am not aware how that works in Oberstown. I will make it my business to find out. I am sure there are services that generally are in organisations and places like this. Young people have values; it is just a matter of being given the opportunity to follow them through and the luxury some of us were born with to be able to fulfil them.

I do not think that answers the question.

Our spiritual being is different for all of us. Our spiritual life is different for all of us and we find it in different ways. We need to be flexible to fulfil that for young people. For some, it will be religion; for many others, it will not. We need to be open to both.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I will move on to Senator Ruane, after whom I will ask a question or two.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Because there is no one else here, is it okay if I tic-tac back and forth a little bit? I know we put five minutes on the clock, but we probably should have extended the clock given how few of us are here. I am retrospectively-----

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I have been my typically soft self in terms of chairing. We have to give the room back, so to speak, at 4.30 p.m., so that is 45 minutes for the two of us.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

That is a lot of tic-tacking in 45 minutes.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Ms Yiasouma is very welcome. I am definitely responsive to the type of language she is using and how she is speaking. It makes me excited to see what she does in the role.

Subjects like this are always close to my heart. At one stage, it looked inevitable that I was on my way to Oberstown, only for probation intervened at the time. It was nearly part of my life but it was very much part of many of the lives of my friends, who ended up in Oberstown at very young ages. It was not for serious crime, rather it was for robbing cars and stuff like that. Many of them went on to end up in addiction, in and out of adult prisons and stuff like that. There are huge conversations to have on what the point of detention at that young age is. I sit uncomfortably with the idea that it exists in the first place.

Some of my questions are operational. If Ms Yiasouma is not in a position to answer them now, perhaps they can be points to hold onto that we can feed back in six months’ time.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Yes.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Ms Yiasouma referenced the culpability at 12 piece. I would love her general thoughts on that. When you come from a community that has been heavily ostracised or marginalised, you even mature at different rates. Risk is situational; it is context dependent. The way we respond and take risk in some communities may not be understood by communities that have a different safety net or setting around them. Culpability nearly almost needs to be fluid rather than static. It needs to take in many different issues or things that are happening. I would love Ms Yiasouma’s thoughts on that in general.

Feeding on from that, how flexible can culpability be? Obviously, it cannot be flexible in terms of what is written in the law. Deputy Creed talked about spirituality, principles and values. Like Ms Yiasouma said, there are a huge number of values in communities, such as the loyalty, humour and the way we look after each other. That might not go out into the rest of the world but the loyalty, commitment, determination and will is huge. Within that, there are a load of unmet needs, such as undiagnosed learning difficulties, intellectual disabilities, autism spectrum disorder, ASD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD and dyspraxia, and the issue of being able access any sort of care for them. Then add in a chaotic situation. Schools are often doing crisis management rather than having the luxury to learn. You mix all of those things into one pot and you then have this cut-off age for culpability when there are so many other different things going on. Regardless of whether we can or cannot change the culpability thing or whatever case has to be made for that, how do we then treat people who potentially have diagnoses that have not been detected? Is there room to be able to access diagnosis? Can that then affect whether the right place for somebody is in a secure home instead of having an adequate diagnosis and heavily funded supports into those young people and their families to steer them away from a secure home?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I will come to that because it is quite a complex question and is dependent on what is available in the community. The purpose of detention does not sit easy with me. As a child’s rights advocate and somebody who has children's rights running through my DNA, locking children up does not sit right with me. However, I also have seen some children commit the most awful offences. My test used to be whether I would be happy for that person to sit in the same classroom as my daughters. If my answer is “No”, then why should they sit in the same classroom with anybody else’s kids? There are a handful of children who commit such awful offences and many of them are those who go to Oberstown. We have, by necessity, places of detention for children.

On the minimum age of criminal responsibility, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is quite clear. For developed countries such as Ireland, it should be 14. It probably should be 16 actually. My position for the North was that it should be 16. Up until 1998 in Northern Ireland, we had something called doli incapax. The minimum age of criminal responsibility was ten, but between the ages of ten and 14, there was some sort of assessment with regard to the child’s understanding and that very thing – culpability. Did they have the maturity to be able to understand the consequences of what they had done? That was abolished in the North in legislation in 1998, roughly the same time as the Jamie Bulger murder happened in Liverpool. That seems to be something that the Senator would be suggesting. Bear in mind that many of the Scandinavian countries have a minimum age of criminal responsibility at 16 and, in some cases, higher and do not use secure care to get around it. They are able to respond to children who do the most heinous thing.

I go back to my answer to Deputy Sherlock’s question. If we had good community-based services that see the child as a unique individual and did not see kids in groups and not know what to do with the one who sits outside of that group, if we are comfortable as a society to meet the needs of all those children, we would see very few going into custody or even secure care. That is the job of a children's strategy. That is the work that Tusla, education, health and justice do.

What I am seeing in my early engagements with Oberstown and in the records is that young people are getting assessed. Within the first 72 hours they are getting a health assessment and their care plan is developed. They are also getting some good education assessment. The Senator is quite right that it is sometimes the first time their educational needs and level of learning is assessed. Why is it? Is it because they have a disability, a neurodisability or are on the spectrum - what is going on? Sometimes that is the first time that is happening. We know speech and language is critical for these young people. It would be great if those assessments were done before they went to school. It is critical. Then there are the mental health interventions, the drugs and alcohol, the education and the training. Sometimes, when they get into Oberstown, it is the first time they have had those individual assessments. That is not a reason for them to go to Oberstown.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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It is a reason for us to fix it on the other end.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

In Oberstown, they are doing the best job they can with the young people they have. As of 1 June, we will continue to improve the service that we give those young people. They have the right to the best level of care. I would like to see more than €27 million but we can talk about that with the Department another time.

Sometimes, it is the first time children are getting those assessments. Bearing in mind I said the average age is 16, that is a shame. Those are missed years in particular with schools and education. However, I am not speaking of what I know, rather, I am speaking of what I know in other settings. I would be happy for members of the committee to come and see us. I can feel the director saying: “Don’t be inviting them.” We would welcome them to come and see how it operates, either as a group or as individuals. It is a sight to see.

It is clear young people ultimately pay the price of unmet needs, poverty and failure of care in the community.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Absolutely.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We should not have Oberstown to get those things done; it is the other way around.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Of course.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We should be moving into a preventative space.

When I was developing my spent convictions legislation, there was an area I could not do through that legislation. I will probably come to it as soon as the spent legislation makes its way through the Dáil. The area would have to be dealt with through children's legislation. I will ask Ms Yiasouma about this because of her expertise. I work with a number of men who took a life in their teens. They did not go on to reoffend and many of them came home to the community but, unlike other crimes, this conviction will not be quashed when they turn 18. These men have barely reached the age of culpability and yet, there is no special provision for that conviction to be removed from their record. Culpability is different when it comes to adult stuff, that is, if a person is in their 20s or 30s. Those convictions stay on their record. However, there has to be a special provision for kids who lack the understanding and maturity when they commit that act. A special provision is needed. What are Ms Yiasouma's thoughts on that?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I ask the Senator to bear in mind what I am about to say are my personal thoughts. They are not the views of Oberstown. We had an independent review of youth justice in Northern Ireland, which was chaired by John Graham. Mr. Graham was independent and he had two other colleagues, one of whom was an ex-commissioner in Scotland with a rights-based overview. One of the recommendations the group made was that all children should have their slate wiped clean when they reached 18. The recommendation never quite made it through, not so much because of murders - there are not many of them - but because the older kids, that is, the 17-and-a-half year olds who commit a serious crime. Is it right to wipe the slate clean six months after they have committed a heinous offence?

I am generally in favour of the slate being wiped clean-----

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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After a period of time.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

-----after a period. However, there could be some sort of an assessment for the older ones to ask where they are at, after a period of supervision and they have served their sentence. The recommendation is right. We know Simon Weston, a Falklands war veteran, did something as a child. I cannot remember what it was. I think it was a minor theft. He could not stand for certain positions because it followed him through, even though he had been hailed as a hero. Young people say they cannot rewrite their story when they want to go for a job, because they have this record lurking in their background. Our vetting procedure in the North, AccessNI, is being much more pro-holding back, rather than showing everybody everything if there is no need to or it is not relevant. It makes it very difficult for young people to be able to take the work they have done on themselves and move on to the next stage if certain paths are closed to them, because it will be disclosed that they have offended. I am in favour of wiping the slate clean, with some caveats.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The rest of my questions are more operationally styled. I will do a few at a time, so I do not go all the way to 4.30 p.m. I know we are saying €19 million is for staff. I would love to get an idea of what the figure is made up of. Does it include teachers, occupational therapists and speech and language therapy? Does Oberstown have the capacity to meet the individual needs of all young people in all the different sectors that might be involved? The HIQA report from 2021 is the latest report I can see. Are there any vacant posts? Have any new posts been established since 2021? HIQA reflects the interim organisational structure as of October 2021. Where does the designated liaison person fall within the organisation? Has a deputy designated liaison officer been appointed? HIQA outlined cases where no one was appointed when the designated liaison person was on leave. Have those roles been filled and what exactly is the role within the organisation?

Has the safeguarding statement been updated? What is the rationale for continued use of single separation? Has the supervision model been implemented? Some of this stuff would have come up in the HIQA report. Ms Yiasouma can send responses in another time, if she does not have access to information now. I know there were concerns around supervision records and complaints and allegations. Does the multidisciplinary approach address the psychiatric assessments that may be required? With regard to the relationship with family and friends and how that is managed, does the centre support those relationships? What does that look like? If there is a breakdown in those relationships, is it just accepted that the relationship is broken down? What types of efforts are to be made to bridge those connections between young people and their families?

Is there a process for recording the young person's views on their placement, planning meetings, etc.? In what capacity can the centre support the wider children systems? I think Ms Yiasouma has referred to some of that anyway. Will she tell us about the individual recovery programme procedure? It is the programme to assist young persons returning to baseline behaviour following an incident. I think I read that in one of the reports. What supports are envisioned for those transitioning from Oberstown? I know the strategic plan mentions interagency work, as per the youth justice strategy. What is the plan, or does it happen when a persons turns a certain age? I would like an insight into that. I hope Ms Yiasouma has managed to note all of those questions.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I think we have noted them, between Úna Ní Dhubhgaill and I. Senator Ruane does her homework, does she not? I am not in a position to say whether there is enough staff. When Oberstown is fully staffed, bearing in mind there are often staff off ill or on annual leave, the figure of €19 million includes everyone on Oberstown's payroll. It would include healthcare and other staff. What was the question after?

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Was it about the designated liaison person?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Yes, it was. There is a HIQA report from 2022 as well, which also mentions the deputy designated liaison person. That person has now been identified and he is about to have training. I do not know where he is in the organisation, but I know the director is responsible for that action. The role is critical, because it is the liaison where there are safeguarding and child-protection systems. The child protection statement is currently at draft stage and is being reviewed by senior management. I remember the organisational question; the final organisational structure has been agreed. Two senior posts are about to be recruited for, or have been identified and are to be recruited for. I cannot remember which, but we can certainly get the information to the Senator.

Some of the other issues the Senator identified I have spoken on. HIQA says when it talks to people, it knows they feel safe and nurtured. We do not see that reflected in the record keeping. As the chair going in, if there was going to be one or the other, that is the right way round, but it needs to be fixed. The next phase of development is to make sure the records are kept and reflect the quality of the care going on.

That is work in progress.

I cannot answer the question on whether the multidisciplinary team, MDT, is able to meet the psychological and mental health needs of the young people. I hope so, but I would need to verify it first, as that is an important question and I do not want to mislead the committee. We will get that answer for the committee.

Similarly, I cannot answer the Senator's question on family and friends. I asked a question when I was at the centre a couple of weeks ago, so I know that a flexible approach is taken to visits by family and friends. It is not that there is one visiting day each week. Rather, people can come on down when it suits them. It is family friendly. I am unclear on how far the centre supports young people when relationships are fractured and there needs to be some healing or mediation. That was an important question and I am happy to revert to the committee on it.

When the HIQA spoke to the young people, they said that they were involved in their care planning. Families said the same. The record does not always reflect that, though. The element to do with the voice of the young people is strong. There is a campus council. There is also a designated advocacy officer, whose job it is to ensure that the young people's voices are heard and their views are incorporated at every level of Oberstown. There is a young people's committee that the chairperson chairs. When I say "young people's committee", I mean a committee with young people who are having their say and feeding back views. However, that is not always reflected in the system.

Oberstown is very much involved in developing the youth justice strategy for the wider youth justice system. Bearing in mind that we are discussing a children's social care system and we sit in the Department with responsibility for children, I would like to think that the information and insight that the team at Oberstown has influence the wider children's system.

I do not have information on the individual recovery programme procedure.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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It was suggested and encouraged by-----

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

HIQA.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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-----the campus council.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Yes. We need to consider that. Transitioning or preparing to leave is one of the core tenets of Oberstown's model of care. It is the "P" in CEHOP – care, education, health, offending behaviour and preparation for leaving. It all comes to nothing if the young people are not supported to return to their communities. A great deal of work in education, the offending behaviour programme and physical and mental health is done in preparing them to leave. How well that works is one of the main questions for me. We need to be able to produce more information on it.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Would some young people be released into homelessness at 18 years of age?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I would be shocked to hear that a young person was released into homelessness. Young people can stay in Oberstown, depending on their sentences. For example, if someone was sentenced for a year at 17 and a half years of age, that person could stay in Oberstown until 18 and a half years of age to help with preparation to leave. If people's sentences are very long and they have to go into adult facilities, they are supported. I do not have the answer to the Senator's question on whether some people leave into homelessness. I would be shocked if the answer was "Yes", but if it is, then it will be "No" by this time next year.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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There is probably a gap-----

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

In my knowledge.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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But also in the statistics that capture how many people do not reoffend.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Yes.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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What about the continued use of single separation?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Single separation is an issue that is close to my heart. I did a great deal of work on it just before I stopped being the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People. There have been some reports in the media about Oberstown's use of single separation. When I saw some of the figures, there was a lump in my throat, but I have interrogated them further. When referring to single separation at Oberstown, we are not talking about solitary confinement. Rather, we are speaking about young people being separated from their peers. They still have engagement with staff and others. In the past month, the maximum has been 13 hours and the average has been seven hours. We are talking about timeouts in their rooms or on their units, with members of staff but away from other young people because they have fallen out or something has happened. It is generally because they pose a risk to others or to themselves. I am not justifying it. It is-----

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I engage with a woman regularly whose son is in Oberstown. She felt the more separation he endured, the more frustrated, lonely and isolated he felt. His behaviour was not improving with separation.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

It was exacerbated. The work we did before I left my previous job showed it was not healthy for a young person to be separated. The statistics show it is less than 13 hours at any given time, but we need to bear in mind the question of whether it is a regular occurrence. The staff and director are very alive to the single separation issue. My understanding from Professor Kilkelly is that she monitors it between board meetings and is kept informed on it. In light of my interests, I will be doing the same. Oberstown is nearly at its peak number, which sometimes exacerbates the situation. It is not good. I am not saying what the solution is, but having read the board's papers for last month and this month, it is something that all the staff – not just the board – are very alive to. We need to get the numbers to the minimum. I assure the committee that we are not talking about solitary confinement or days. We are not even talking about one day. If it is happening regularly, though, then I get the point.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Are there any parents on the board?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

No. The board comprises staff, representatives of local communities and then the great and the good, namely, public appointees.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Would it be worth considering having a member who has expertise through experience of this?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

One of the conversations we will be having in the next few months as I take over as chair will be on engagement with families. I have asked about parents groups and parent supports, as those are critical. What young people want is to be connected to their families, if it is safe for them to do so. Oberstown has family days and so on, but it is about-----

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The decision-making level.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

The voice and a parallel process to the young people's council. It is something to explore.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank Ms Yiasouma, and I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for indulging me.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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No, those were useful questions. I was going to ask one or two of them.

I will pick up on the final point. Oberstown has a youth council, youth board and so on. Why not have a parents council at the very least? Even if we cannot get a parent on the board or parents are not in a position to engage with it without some support, a parents council would certainly be a first step.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I agree. It is well worth considering.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The flexibility of the "come on down" approach is great, but it is fair to say that Oberstown is not in the most central of locations. In the past, it has used a minibus to pick up parents from the local train station, but even getting to the train station can be a nightmare. Can the bus pick up parents in the city centre? Is there flexibility enough to do that?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I asked the same question. I live on the other side of Belfast in the North and my preference is public transport. I googled how to get public transport to Oberstown and I saw I would have to mission it. The reason is historical, but its location also means it has space. There is a football pitch and a garden, which we hope will be developed. I asked how families could reach it. Apparently, if they can get to the airport, to which there is good transport from the city centre and various surrounding towns, they can be picked up from there. That is probably easier than the train station, which I believe is in Balbriggan.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Rush.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Is there one in Rush?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I used to get the train to Rush, but with the anti-social-----

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Like I said, Google was having none of it. As I understand it, they are being picked up from the airport. The parents and family piece is really important.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I am also conscious of some of Ms Yiasouma's comments with regard to the multi-agency aspect. It would be great to have her back to talk about that and about the roadblocks with other agencies, particularly Tusla, which obviously comes under the same Department and under this committee. She could talk about the assessments. Many of the children who will come into her service have already been engaged with Tusla for a very long time. There are questions to ask if they are being assessed for the first time when they come to Oberstown. I say that with an eye to our colleagues from the Department. If that is the case, it raises questions as to why other services, including Tusla, are not providing those assessments or ensuring they happen. I will leave that as a comment.

Another thing I wish to pick up on is the role of independent advocacy. We had Empowering People in Care, EPIC, before the committee a few times. It supports young people in care and is also involved in providing independent advocacy. I know Ms Yiasouma mentioned an advocacy officer but I hope that can continue under her watch.

To pick up on some of the stuff we talked about with regard to people on the cusp of turning 18, Oberstown does really good work in a variety of ways including getting people ready to leave, providing assessments, often for the first time, and getting people to engage in education. There could be a not-so-young young person, a 17-year-old, with a very lengthy sentence who has to continue that sentence in an adult prison. Such prisons operate from a very different viewpoint or place, and that is being generous. A lot of the intensive work that has been done and the intensive support that has been given is just going to fall away. Given Ms. Yiasouma's experience and given her role, would she like to see young people being able to stay in Oberstown, perhaps until the age of 20 or 21? The youth courts in Germany have jurisdiction over cases involving young people until their 21st birthday. Is that something Mr. Yiasouma would like to see? Is it something Oberstown could provide to ensure the positive work that is being done does not get lost?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I am not the chair at Oberstown until 1 June so I will just give my personal opinion. Transitions are really important. Ensuring that the work done in a place like Oberstown is embedded and continues, whether in the community or elsewhere, is really important. A child is a child until the age of 18 and we have a different system for children. As a children's rights advocate, I think we have to preserve that. However, it does not make sense to put a 19-year-old or an 18.5-year-old into an adult prison. There is a facility for those aged 18 to 21 in the North called Hydebank Wood. The juvenile justice centre in Northern Ireland provides for those up to the age of 18. Those aged 18 to 21 go to Hydebank Wood while those over 21 go to adult prisons. There is a need for a facility for those in between. Oberstown has a role in contributing to that. It may also have land to contribute. That is a discussion that needs to be had with the Department and with the Department of Justice. However, the Leas-Chathaoirleach is right about putting a 19-year-old in an adult prison. Such a 19-year-old may think he is mature and a big man but he is not really because he has not had the life experiences of any other 19-year-old. I am the parent of a 22-year-old and I would not think her able for prison, even though she is a teacher. There needs to be an in-between place. I would be reluctant to put such people in with those aged under 18 because a child is a child, if that answers the Leas-Chathaoirleach's questions. It is a huge leap from Oberstown to an adult prison.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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In terms of record keeping, tracking outcomes and research, is Oberstown in a position to track someone who has made that transition over to the adult system and to see how much of the multi-agency work and positive intervention is kept up and how much falls away?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

Part of the next phase of development for Oberstown relates to outcomes for young people. The work being done has been extraordinary. I have been watching the development and there has been a lot of joint work between North and South. I was often the NGO representative in the work happening in the North. I have been watching Oberstown from a distance and the work has honestly been remarkable. I am not joking when I say that it is a world leader in detention for children. I am not sure whether the State wants to be known for being the best at that but the quality of care for children is world beating. It is certainly held in very high regard across Europe, if not around the world. The next phase of development relates to outcomes, tracking young people and being able to demonstrate the impact the model of care in Oberstown has on children. You can only do so much, however. It is an incremental journey.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I am very concerned that a lot of the quality of care Ms Yiasouma is talking about gets lost in the transition or just does not exist in the adult prison service. That is a separate question that we have addressed in the Joint Committee on Justice. There is a problem if that quality does not exist in the adult service. If this high quality is there and then gets lost because we are not doing transitions right, that is a bit of a problem.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

It also sets Oberstown up to fail. If the work cannot continue in the community or begin before young people come in, Oberstown is being asked to do too big a job. It is far too big a job. You cannot fix - if I can use that word - young people who have been failed by a great many systems and who may continue to be failed once they leave. You cannot ask Oberstown to fix that. It cannot do so on its own. It needs to be part of a system but it has information that can inform that system.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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As I have said, it would be great if Ms Yiasouma could come back and tell us about those roadblocks.

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

I look forward to it.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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That would be great. Are there any other questions? Would Ms Yiasouma like to make any closing comments?

Ms Koulla Yiasouma:

No but I will say that the committee has asked some questions I did not have the answers to and that I will come back to the committee on those. We are genuinely on a continuing journey. It is in incredibly good nick but there is work to be done. We will come back to the committee with some of the answers. I look forward to engaging with the committee and with individual members. I know I speak for the director when I say that.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Yiasouma for engaging with the members this afternoon. We wish her every success as she takes up her new position. The clerk will inform the Minister that the committee has completed its engagement with the chairperson designate. I propose to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. With all of that done, the meeting now stands adjourned until Tuesday, 30 May.