Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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The purpose of the meeting is to discuss port capacity with respect to the renewable energy challenge and opportunity the country has. We have representatives today from Shannon Foynes Port Company, the Port of Cork and Rosslare Europort.

I welcome to the meeting from Shannon Foynes Port Company, Mr. Pat Keating, chief executive officer; from Rosslare Europort and Irish Rail, Mr. Glenn Carr, general manager, and Mr. Barry Kenny head of media and PR in Irish Rail; and from Port of Cork, Mr. Tim Murphy, port engineering manager.

Before we begin, I will read out the note on privilege. I remind the witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind those members joining us online that they are allowed to participate in the meeting only if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. I ask that they confirm that they are in the grounds of the Leinster House campus before making their contributions.

I call Mr. Keating to make his opening statement.

Mr. Pat Keating:

Shannon Foynes Port Company is Ireland’s largest bulk port company and has statutory jurisdiction on the Shannon Estuary covering 500 sq. km. With channel depths of up to 32 m, we handle the largest vessels entering Irish waters and have capacity to handle over 11 m tonnes per annum. Our activities have a trade value of circa €8.5 billion per annum supporting 3,900 jobs.

Both EU and national policies, including the national development plan, endorse the strategic importance of Shannon Foynes Port which is a tier 1 port of national strategic importance and a core corridor port in the EU’s TEN-T regulations. To date, we have made several successful funding applications under the TEN-T budget, receiving grant aid supporting projects costing over €40 million.

Importantly, there are several sites adjoining the estuary, extending to 1,200 ha, which are zoned for maritime development, making Shannon Foynes ideally suited for future national port infrastructure of scale for this country. To fully realise these comparative advantages, expansion and development of the port is led by its 30-year master plan, Vision 2041, which was updated in 2022 with the assistance of global engineering company Bechtel. The updated Vision 2041 review was launched by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, last November.

Our plans take account of changes in policy, such as 2030 and 2050 climate action targets, together with changed freight market dynamics since 2013. Accordingly, future port expansion at Shannon Foynes is generally classified over four main themes: the deployment of floating offshore wind at scale; the green hydrogen and transition facilitating alternative fuels production; required port expansion to meet expanded, diversified and more sustainable logistics services; and the implementation of the Limerick docklands framework strategy.

With regard to the deployment of floating offshore wind at scale, our plans demonstrate that €100 billion of offshore wind farm investment can locate in the Atlantic within 36 hours of the estuary, and that in order to support that offshore investment, €12 billion in supply chain investment could locate to the Shannon Estuary by 2050. Our plans also provide for the development of a 1 GW-scale green hydrogen production facility powered by offshore wind. This facility also allows for production of derivative fuels such as green ammonia and-or e-methanol.

In addition to becoming an integration port for floating offshore wind, the Vision 2041 review found that Foynes Port, conditional on developing the proposed new deepwater quay at Foynes Island, could add substantial freight capacity to the national supply chain. Importantly, this capacity at Foynes will be situated at an uncongested point in the national road and rail network, assuming completion of the Vision 2041 transport objectives.

The €100 million Limerick to Foynes rail connection and the €450 million Limerick to Foynes road scheme are key requirements of Vision 2041. These crucial hinterland connections, together with the port infrastructure planned for Foynes, will transform the Foynes terminal into a major national freight and logistics hub. This connectivity, together with its 180 ha port estate, ensures Shannon Foynes can provide substantial capacity and resilience for the national freight sector.

Successful implementation of our plans, by delivering on the identified offshore renewable energy and logistics opportunities, will be transformational for Shannon Estuary and the country. The Atlantic’s renewables resources could provide an almost infinite green energy supply, ensuring our country becomes energy independent for the first time in its history. Freight transport can be considerably decarbonised by reducing tonne per kilometre travelled by using the planned Foynes logistics hub and producing e-fuels.

Resulting economic impacts will be tens of thousands of jobs created and billions of euro invested in supply chain and route-to-market infrastructure and facilities over the entire western seaboard.

The successful implementation of our plans requires a collaborative and co-operative approach with all stakeholders. In that regard, the following areas should be addressed in the short term. On offshore policy, we welcome recent policy updates, such as the policy statement relating to phase 2, calling for 2 GW of floating offshore to be in development by 2030, and the national industrial strategy for offshore wind published by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment recently. It is essential that the milestones for offshore wind continue to be prioritised in order that we can deliver the requisite port infrastructure on time. We should also ensure that the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, becomes operational in quarter 3 of 2023 and that An Bord Pleanála has the human resources to meet prescribed timelines. Completion of the Limerick to Foynes road scheme and the reopening of the Foynes to Limerick rail line are mission critical. With regard to enabling infrastructure, new deepwater port infrastructure and updated offshore grid strategy are essential to enable the utilisation of our immense renewable resources in the Atlantic. Shannon Foynes is addressing the former and calls for the latter to be fast-tracked.

As regards funding, new port infrastructure estimated to cost €500 million will be required to facilitate our plans. However, this investment could mobilise more than €100 billion in private sector investment in offshore renewables and supply chain activities. We note that the Department of Transport is planning a new ports policy this year. We respectfully request that new port funding mechanisms would be considered for port projects of national strategic significance.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Keating for staying about within his five minutes by about five seconds. I am pretty impressed. Mr. Carr has to try to stay within the five minutes as well. I read his opening statement, which is possibly a little longer than Mr. Keating's. We would appreciate it if he would truncate it to some extent and just give us the principal points.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss Rosslare Europort, which is our second busiest roll-on roll-off, ro-ro, and passenger port. It is now a key national strategic port handling between 18% to 20% of the ro-ro freight in the country and we forecast that more than 600,000 passengers will go through the port in 2023. In overseeing significant growth in freight at Rosslare, we are also focused on supporting the growing demand for sustainable travel. We will see a substantial increase in tourism and passenger traffic at the port. We are currently well ahead of pre-Covid passenger numbers.

Rosslare Europort is primed to play a leading role for the country as the gateway to Europe for freight and passenger activity, creating Ireland’s offshore renewable national hub, and providing much-needed additional port capacity for the south-east coast. It also has the potential to alleviate the challenges facing ports such as Dublin regarding current and future congestion. To support our ambitious plans, the port and its stakeholders are embarking on the largest ever investment in the history of the port. Significant physical and digital infrastructure projects are under way at the port and include the following: construction of the T7 border control post; a port freight and passenger master plan; a berth extension programme; the purchase of additional land; digital port smart systems; a new port access road; and the offshore renewable hub. I am delighted to say that we received the required foreshore licences and planning and secured funding for most of the above projects.

I will concentrate on the construction of the offshore renewable hub. I can confirm that all foreshore licence requirements have been received and we are currently well advanced in our planning and funding phases of the project. The offshore renewable electricity support scheme, ORESS, 1 auction results released last week by Eirgrid mark a significant milestone for Ireland’s offshore wind. These projects, involving in excess of 3 GW of capacity, represent a major step forward to delivering a capacity target of 5 GW of offshore wind by 2030. I take this opportunity to congratulate all those involved in Ireland's first offshore wind auction. The first successful wind farm operators can progress their projects in the knowledge that, by the time construction commences, Rosslare Europort will have progressed our current plans to establish a dedicated offshore renewable hub. Equally, for the unsuccessful bidders, we continue to look forward to working in partnership with them in future.

Rosslare Europort is the best positioned and located to be developed to meet the port infrastructure needs of this industry for the projects planned but we cannot stand still. Ireland must invest heavily in port infrastructure and supporting facilities to deliver these major renewable infrastructure projects. The offshore renewable energy, ORE, hub development at Rosslare Europort will be the first of its kind in a port within the Republic of Ireland. Representing a €220 million investment, this world-class facility will provide the ORE industry with the necessary port infrastructure to support the many wind farm projects planned for the Irish and Celtic Seas.

The project at Rosslare will see the construction of two new berths of at least 230 m in length, with a chart depth of at least 12 m, an approach channel of -10 m, and 20 ha of reclaimed land to create a dedicated storage and assembly area and a management control centre, along with offices and other operations and maintenance, OM, facilities. Our planned new ORE facility at the port will be designed to be multimodal in the future. This means that once the heavy ORE activity is completed for the various projects, the facility at the port will be easily transferable for additional ro-ro, lift-on lift-off, lo-lo, and container roll-on roll-off, con-ro, activity.

This will be of strategic importance for the east coast especially in light of the future capacity Dublin Port will face in the next decade. The design of the facilities has been informed by discussions with ORE developers and major equipment manufacturers, as well as port and ORE engineering specialist consultants. Rosslare has received its foreshore licence, which will allow for the final surveys to be completed which are necessary to apply for planning permission. Planning permission is expected to be submitted during the second or third quarter of 2024, with a maximum six- to 12-month planning period needed to follow. A 12- to 18-month construction schedule would see the site operational late 2026 or early 2027.

Delivery of the project in a timely manner will be key to maximising its value. From a commercial perspective, a delay in availability of Rosslare’s port infrastructure will mean that the earliest ORE projects will need to turn elsewhere potentially outside of the State to service their projects. A delay in the delivery of Rosslare’s port infrastructure will also have a knock-on impact in the context of the delivery of 2030 offshore targets and broader economic implications for Ireland.

Success in the auction is considered to be a major de-risking milestone for phase 1 developers. Prior to auction submission, developers will have undertaken extensive engagement with suppliers but would not have had firm agreements in place at the time of bidding and will therefore have made assumptions on key supply chain elements. ORE projects that were successful in auction can now commence work to lock-in major supply chain items, including ports and installation vessels, and we look forward to continued engagement with industry in the coming months to address these issues.

Iarnród Éireann has also engaged with a number of funders to understand their key considerations in respect of structuring and overall project bankability. Funders are keen to stress their interest in working with Iarnród Éireann, particularly in respect of the ORE project which would align well with their lending strategies and increasing sustainability focus. We are finalising our business case and funding options. We intend to present these to the Department of Transport in the coming weeks and discuss the options and interventions that will be required to support the delivery of the project.

We look forward to engaging further with all agencies and stakeholders in successfully completing the final milestones of this project. We wish to acknowledge the collective collaboration to date between the Departments of Transport, Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Environment, Climate and Communications and Finance, Transport Infrastructure Ireland and Wexford County Council.

We cannot not shy away from the importance of ensuring how a more sustainable way our ports operate can be developed. Ensuring ship-to-shore connectivity requirements in the medium to longer term plans for Rosslare and the reconnection of rail freight are high on the agenda for the port.

We await the outcome of the all-island rail review. We have very ambitious plans for rail freight, and we must enhance and grow rail freight at Dublin and Waterford ports which are already connected. Work has commenced on the reinstatement of the Shannon Foynes line and discussions are under way with the Port of Cork. Rail freight is a key national and EU policy in decarbonising the transport sector and ports have a responsibility to ensure that rail-based solutions form part of their master plans.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak about the Port of Cork's plans to support renewable energy. The Port of Cork is the second largest port in the State and a designated European core port under the trans-European transport, TEN-T, network. We handle all six modes of port traffic. Later this week, we will launch our new port master plan with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in Cork. The master plan is our strategic development plan for the next 30 years. It is underpinned by two strategic goals: first, our move out of the city to the lower harbour by 2050 to deeper waters and nearer shipping lanes and second, our decarbonisation to net zero by 2050. We took a big step in our move to lower harbour last year by opening up the new container terminal at Ringaskiddy. This represented €100 million capital investment.

Our next big step is to support Ireland’s energy needs and ORE in particular. In order to meet the ambitions set out by the Government in respect of ORE, we plan to keep two container terminals open until two things happen: first, the completion of the M28 motorway to Ringaskiddy; and, second, when Ireland’s ORE needs are met. The Port of Cork is unique because it currently has planning permission and foreshore lease in place for two quayside berths that can be built out early to facilitate the country’s plans for fixed bottom ORE. Thereafter these walls will support floating ORE. The version of my opening statement submitted to the committee includes graphics of our infrastructural plans.

Once the offshore renewable energy construction phase is over, we will repurpose the quayside berths to support our move from the city.

In January this year, we applied to the EU's central fund for partial funding. We are in active discussions with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, on the possibility of its becoming a potential funding partner. For some time, Cork Harbour has been an energy hub, with Ireland's only oil refinery in Whitegate and two combined-cycle gas terminal, CCGT, power plants in Whitegate and Aghada, which between them produce more than 1 GW of energy. They are just two examples. The new master plan for the Port of Cork identifies that the port can be a key enabler of Cork Harbour's transformation to a green energy hub, which will include not just ORE but also emerging green energy fuels. In June this year, Green Biofuels will officially open Ireland’s first green fuel terminal in Ringaskiddy.

The new master plan for the port identifies the infrastructural changes necessary to ensure sufficient port capacity is in place to meet trade demand. It also identifies how the build-out of the infrastructure can be accelerated to support Ireland's energy needs, particularly for fixed-bottom ORE.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I will kick off the questions. Unlike the other speakers, Mr. Murphy did not mention rail as being important. Is rail part of the plan for the Port of Cork?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

We have rail connectivity via Marina Point, which is our deepwater terminal. However, the ORE prospects are in Ringaskiddy, which will be motorway-connected.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Murphy. I want to give all the witnesses an opportunity to outline succinctly what they need from the Oireachtas. Mr. Keating's statement is quite clear in this regard but I am interested in the timelines he would like to see for the delivery by the Government of the various aspects.

Mr. Pat Keating:

Since I was before the committee last March, we have updated our master plan, as I said. We employed a company called Bechtel, which has global expertise in this area. We have put some science and quantification around the potential in offshore energy, which is 70 GW within a 36-hour tow time. That quantifies the resource within a proximity to the port, which is very important for the cost of production of that electricity. Ports need to be close to the resource to cut down the transport costs of moving equipment and people, which is part of the operations and management aspect.

Moving on from that, we basically mapped out what infrastructure was required on the estuary. The natural deep water of the estuary is important, particularly for floating wind but also for fixed. Depths of 10 m to more than 15 m are in abundance in the estuary. We identified during the master planning process that there are four core projects necessary to kick off the offshore hub, which will cover the entire Shannon Estuary, as per my opening statement. The appendix will give members a flavour of what is required. As I said, four key projects are required to facilitate the supply chain to build out wind farms, whether fixed or floating. They include the integration hub at Foynes Island and the Green Atlantic project at Moneypoint, the promoter of which is the ESB.

The third project involves the wet storage aspect, which is a critical requirement for this sector. At the key phase, particularly for floating wind and to a lesser extent for fixed, turbines will be producing at a steady state, with a run rate of a couple of hundred megawatts per annum being produced or prepared, or maybe one to two turbines per week. That will be a steady-state production cycle. There will have to be a wet storage area on the waters because it will not always be possible to tow the devices because of weather windows, supply chain tightness and the like. Wet storage is a critical aspect. We have identified areas on the estuary that do not conflict with the anchorages or shipping lanes and offer significant space to allow for the build-up of stock or inventory if there are weather window or supply chain issues.

The fourth key project is to do with the operations and maintenance aspect, which arises once things are up and running. Our whole intent is to assist the industry to build out its turbines. The Cathaoirleach's question is about what we need to do that. It is necessary to look at how we interact with the system.

The first part of what is required, which in under way at the moment, is the designed maritime area plans, DMAPs, which are under the offshore renewable energy development plan, OREDP, II process and are due to be completed next year. That timeline fits with the process. The DMAPS define the areas offshore, particularly in terms of the Atlantic, and different DMAPs have different parts of the coast. They will define the areas that maritime area consents, MACs, will be granted to. Looking at the interaction of the industry and infrastructure, which is the ports piece, it is DMAPs, followed by MARA handing out a MAC, and it will then go to An Bord Pleanála. Those are the first three critical stages for port infrastructure. We are working closely on that front with the Department of Transport, which is ensuring that our journey through the preplanning and planning is as assisted and prioritised as much as possible.

In respect of the key milestones, it is important that we stick to the timelines that are currently being published, which is the DMAPs completed in the first half of next year. That will enable developers to seek MACs. MARA is due to be up and running in quarter 3. It is already established. It will be operational in quarter 3 of this year, or perhaps sooner. We welcome that. That is important from a supply chain readiness point of view. As a port company, we must have our infrastructure in place before the developer needs to use that infrastructure. With MARA on the way, it enables us to receive the MAC, hopefully, this summer. The MAC is needed in order to go to An Bord Pleanála for planning.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I have limited time. Could Mr. Keating comment on the funding point that he touched on?

Mr. Pat Keating:

For the project, we are looking at developing a new deep-water terminal on Foynes Island – 800 m, a significant quay set down. It would be largest deep-water quay in the country. It is over a number of phases, but phase 1, between the offshore renewable energy, ORE, and the existing port element, if you like, is around €500 million – roughly €300 million for the ORE section and 400 m berth. In parallel with the likes of Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, European Investment Bank, EIB, and the Department of Transport, we are examining the funding mechanisms available to us. The Department announced that it will be updating its ports policy this year. Given the scale of this infrastructure relative to the port company’s balance sheet, we will need some kind of new thinking around port infrastructure of scale in certain cases. I am not saying it is open season. However, for certain types of port infrastructure and particularly infrastructure that will assist the ORE sector, it is important that as a country – I know the Department is thinking of this – we relook at how we might fund it and have more State involvement in that, whether it is sovereign guarantees or something else. A few options should be looked at.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I take it from that that public-private opportunities would be explored.

Mr. Pat Keating:

Yes. There is already potential facility for public-private. We can create subsidiaries with the Minister's consent. However, even they may struggle because this is a very nascent sector. It is early stage. We need to get the run rates and be able to prove that - that kind of 300 MW or 400 MW per annum build-out, which gives a positive cost-benefit analysis, CBA, on one’s project, for example. More Government involvement, not direct funding but perhaps a sovereign debt model should be examined. I am not sure what that would look like but it needs to be considered under the new ports policy. There will be consultation open on that policy towards the end of the year and we will be making consultations on that front.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I want to be fair to members. Most of my time is gone but do any other guests wish to make a quick point?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

To follow up, from our point of view, time is critical. We now have our foreshore licence. We will be submitting MAC as soon as we can and then it is through planning. We have to be through planning in six to nine months. There is no room for error on this because we are phase 1 and phase 2.

The industry will need a port like the facility that is being built at Rosslare if we are going to realise its potential. On funding, there is going to be a requirement for intervention. If we just stand back and look at it, there are no bankable contracts as we speak. The developers that were successful last week are now going into planning. If you are going into corporate debt, project debt or any type of debt like that, the funders are looking for surety of the revenue stream. We know it is going to happen, but we do not have signed contracts. Nobody will have signed contracts until there is surety on both sides. One is that we have the facility built in time, but are willing to take that risk because we will develop and deliver the project. From our point of view, until they are through planning, it is very difficult for developers to commit. There will be a requirement for support, particularly in the magnitude of port investment.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

In terms of consents, the Port of Cork already has planning permission and a foreshore lease in place. We met with the developers and ORE applicants last week as part of the process relating to consulting on our master plan. We are satisfied that we have all the infrastructure required to satisfy their needs. In terms of funding, we will know the outcome of our European CEF application in June. Hopefully, there will be good news there. If not, we are actively engaging with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, in any event, so I am not as strident as my two colleagues on the issue of intervention.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the ports for they work they are currently doing in highlighting this issue. We have all gotten caught up, to some extent, in the potential or bounty, as it were, particularly in the mid west, where there is lots of talk about the potential for the capture of offshore wind in the Atlantic, not just for the domestic but also for the international market. People are getting carried away with the numbers and the scale of it. Without key infrastructure, and that requires the State to fund it, we are nowhere. Like others, I have had the opportunity to meet with various different actors outside of Ireland. We are a long way behind. In Norway, where I recently I met with representatives of Equinor, they do not see Ireland as being first up and best-dressed, or even second up and poorly dressed. They do not see us as being at the game. While we might rely on the basis that it has left the EU, the UK, for all its failings, is still powering ahead with this stuff, particularly in the north east and Scotland. It appears that the Government there is far more clued in to the needs and expectations of developers. It is not really a question for the witnesses in terms of their interaction with developers, but are they coming across any concerns being expressed about the potential loss to Ireland? Particularly in the area of floating offshore wind, the platforms can be moved. Ultimately, that is how it will happen. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that they will be formed elsewhere. Yet again, we will be at the tail end of a development that we should have been pioneering. We may lose all the potential employment that we might have got in terms of work in the ports, and not just port work but in the construction works that would take place. Has that been factored that in? Can the witnesses talk to us about the real risk of losing a major opportunity?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

I can speak to phase 1 and phase 2, because they are the immediate ones. In fairness, for Mr. Keating it will be different phases as they come along. Let us be clear, once the developers have planning permission, they will need to mobilise their supply chain. They will have to have surety of that supply chain. If there is not a port in the Republic of Ireland that is ready, they will go elsewhere. Going elsewhere is not as easy as people might think, because right around Europe and the world every country is increasing its offshore renewable capability. As a result, ports are filling up. However, there are ports that would have capacity. That will have an impact on the supply chain and will involve an additional cost that may not have been factored in. In Rosslare, we know that what we are developing is not just the infrastructure for the construction phases; it is about creating a regional enterprise that supports the industry, including in educational training, fabrication, and where all the jobs are in the heavy construction staging and installation stages. What comes in the operations and maintenance phase is on a much smaller scale, and a lot less is required of the port there.

If we are not ready for 2027, when the mobilisation of the components need to land in a port, rest assured that the opportunity will be lost if Ireland is not ready with ports to cater for that.

Mr. Pat Keating:

Our plans for the large infrastructure of which I spoke are around delivery in 2028. Given the system as it is currently outlined in the MAP Act and the timelines that actually work towards that, there is not much time to spare. In the past year the Government has rolled out a good deal of policy. I note that Deputy Coveney is launching an industrial policy around offshore wind. We keep thinking of offshore wind in energy terms but it is bigger than that. It provides downstream opportunities as well. Ireland is obviously seen as having the best resource. There has been much talk that the port is not ready. However, there is also a dovetailing aspect. The ports all have plans. When the deep-water port infrastructure will be required particularly for floating wind turbines, the Shannon Estuary certainly has plans in place and is working closely with the Department of Transport which also has prioritised the Shannon Estuary developments. It is clear to us that there is a strong recognition across Government that we need to continue to roll out at pace. We were late coming to the party but things are catching up at this stage. There is very little slack in the timelines. The MAPS Act, the MARA, An Bord Pleanála, planning, consenting are all key intersections between our delivery of projects and how we interact with the planning system. The resourcing of all of those agencies is critically important. Developers are obviously concerned. These are huge projects across the board. There is always going to be concern. There are also such issues as industrial policy. This is now seen as a whole-of-Government approach, which is welcome.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses, some or all of whom were at the transport committee meeting last week. There is obviously a keen focus on our ports and their importance. I thank them for that.

In regard to the hurdles and barriers that need to be straightened out in order to deliver on the potential that is there, there are several fora. Government pointed to the offshore wind delivery task force. There are subcommittees of that to focus on ports. What is the experience of that forum? Do the witnesses here before us today who at the transport committee last week believe their voices are heard and that the Government is attuned to the needs of the ports? Going back then to the issue of funding, the scale of funding that is required and the vehicles that are used elsewhere and may be used in this context, we raised with the Government the issue of direct State funding. It was mentioned that this may not meet what is required here. Other jurisdictions and municipalities have found a way to support ports. As time is of the essence, will the witnesses touch on their engagement and the type of financial vehicles that will deliver their objectives and how close they are?

Mr. Pat Keating:

In regard to the overall Government hierarchy, there has been a huge evolution in it, in the past 12 months. There is the cross-departmental task force, chaired by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. Under that sits the port co-ordination group which has responsibility for the port delivery piece.

From the point of view of port infrastructure and the Shannon Foynes Port Company, in our engagement with the Department of Transport, there is certainly a prioritisation there of projects for the port infrastructure which we have identified. I am not saying that this is exclusively for us but we feel it and it is clear.

The other important pieces are the designed maritime area plans, DMAPs which are currently under consultation. There is a timeline for those to be completed. We are hoping that will be the case and there is no reason that timeline will not be met. That is important because under the Acts, the maps need to be evaluated against these DMAPs. The map is the first milestone, so to speak, which then opens the door for maritime area consents, MACs, particularly for the Atlantic and the phase 1 projects which were outside of that regime.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Are the port companies applying for these or is it the developers?

Mr. Pat Keating:

For port infrastructure we require our own MAC but the developer will obviously also require a MAC; we do not require a DMAP because DMAPs are offshore. That is why the planning system, as described, is very much to ensure that we stick to the timelines at this stage. This is accepted and there is no criticism of that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Keating speak about the finance piece, please?

Mr. Pat Keating:

The finance piece is being developed and is evolving but for the Shannon Foynes Port Company, we have looked at potential funding and finance methodologies and strategies. It is early days and we have opened discussions with the Department to look at certain funding methodologies. These projects, and certainly the projects we have in our masterplan, are commercial propositions but it is around that early stage piece and the securing of that run rate. Once one starts producing or having a throughput which is acceptable to the project, where in our terms it is probably up to 300 to 400 MW per annum and the producing of 25 turbines on the jetty front, approximately; one then has a commercial proposition. That, by the way, means approximately 10 GW by 2050 of windfarm energy and that is not very significant, by any means.

Getting that first phase and certainty is important. That is where we believe that some State intervention, perhaps not in direct funding but in some sort of-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Guarantees.

Mr. Pat Keating:

-----sovereign debt funding. Yes, and that would just be for an initial period. We are having conversations with the Department and with the New Economy and Recovery Authority, NewERA, which is a body responsible for providing advice also, together with the European Investment Fund, EIB, and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF. The funding model looks at the entire gamut of funding available to us. EIB and ISIF are all commercial bodies also. That conversation is happening and it is premature to say where it will go to at this stage but the good thing is that it is happening. The focus is on getting to the far side of planning and, in parallel, bringing along the funding conversation and methodologies. The update of the ports policy is very timely in that regard because it will happen this year.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

If the Deputy will pardon the pun, with a fair wind, we plan to have all of the structure in place by the middle of 2026. This is well in advance of any developers' needs.

Second, it is quite clear from talking to developers that they will need at least two ports in the Republic to serve the needs of ORE. We welcome the Government's planning-led approach to the consenting within phase 2 and phase 3 and, despite some developers initial misgivings about it with respect to money being lost, they believe it is the correct way of doing it. That has been the practice around the world and it should be welcomed.

I have already mentioned the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, of the new National Industrial Strategy for Offshore Wind which is also welcome.

We have had very positive engagements with the Minister's national task force, NTF, and the Department and they have been very supportive of this.

Regarding the scale, we are talking about a couple of hundred million euro, or €200 million. We are in active discussions with the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund and are awaiting EU funding.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

Engagement has been great cross-departmentally. We had all of our foreshore licences delivered within 11 months. I thank all those involved in putting us in that position. The next engagement will involve consultation, including public consultation and consultation as we enter the planning phase.

Regarding finance, we have appointed financial people to support us in identifying funding. Corporate debt, project debt, project equity, shareholder equity, EU funding and Exchequer funding are all being considered. We are analysing all these. We are talking to all the major players, including the European Investment Bank and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. We are also having talks in respect of possible developer investment. There is a multitude of possibilities, but, as has been mentioned, we have to build and cannot wait for developers to come through their planning permission processes. If we do, we will be two years too late. We have to build and will have to take a strategic approach that I would say is low risk because we know all the opportunities that are coming. Once the Rosslare facility is built, it will have been designed to be multimodal after heavy construction. We all know about the constraints at Dublin Port and the need in the south east for additional capacity. Rosslare is a port that can easily be developed, with open-sea access and available land. We are going to reclaim up to 50 additional acres and have two additional ports that can be easily converted for lift-on, lift-off, con-ro and ro-ro and that can easily take anywhere from 300,000 to 450,000 units out of Dublin Port. We must do this anyway. With the road and rail connections serving Rosslare, it is a no-brainer at strategic level to make a strategic investment of the magnitude of €200 million. Obviously, CIÉ will be coming to the table. Potentially, we are looking for a funding injection of around €170 million. It is a lot of money in one sense but we are talking about a multibillion-euro industry and something that will be of strategic importance nationally if we really are to switch from fossil fuels to new, green energy. It just has to happen.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I compliment the Department on getting the foreshore licensing done in 11 months, considering that it took three years for west Cork.

This is a great conversation to be having on port infrastructure, especially in respect of renewable energy and future offshore renewable energy infrastructure. I am a Cork Deputy so I will focus on the Port of Cork, if Mr. Murphy does not mind. It is great that a master plan is due to be announced. With regard to the master plan, reference was made to the rolling out of fixed-bottom offshore wind infrastructure. What is the timeline for that?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

The first step was last week, when clarification was obtained regarding offshore wind renewable electricity support scheme competition, ORESS, auctions. At least we now know who the potential customers are. On the back of that, we will re-engage with them to see what the requirements are. We are fairly confident, having considered the matter with them, that we have two key walls that will meet their planning and foreshore requirements. Also, we have a quay-side area in place with lay-down and storage areas.

On timelines, it is a matter of finishing our business plan this year. We have a multi-party framework for consultants in place, so we can pull consultants off that. Our plan for all next year is doing the design and getting the project out to the contracting market. The plan is to build it out throughout 2025 and in early 2026. By the time the developers announced last week are getting their planning permission, we will be building out.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is great. That it is not a million years away is really positive. In Mr. Murphy's opening statement, there was much focus on fixed-bottom offshore wind infrastructure. He mentioned that, in time, he would be considering floating offshore wind infrastructure. Is there a timeline for focusing on the latter?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

That is a good question. The timelines I am talking about here are all related to fixed infrastructure because, as the Deputy knows, the Government's planning-led approach is all about phases 1 and 2A, which are all related to fixed infrastructure. Those concerned made that decision. The decision across Europe seems to reflect the view that the floating technology is not quite there yet.

It is a bit off. It is coming soon. Fixed is certain, and the size is proven, scalable and feasible. It is why the Government took that decision and it makes sense. The infrastructure and planning in place will serve the fixed offshore renewable energy, ORE. Floating is a much bigger investment and outlay. We have time now to get that in place. We are ready now for fixed bottom ORE, which is the first phase.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is great, but I have concerns, not just because I am from Cork, but in general about lack of ambition in terms of floating offshore. We have heard from Shannon Foynes Port Company and there seems to be ambition and realisation that floating offshore is a massive part of Ireland's future energy production. It is great to see the master plans and I am not taking anything away from them. However, I am not seeing that ambition in Cork where a lot of the renewable energy companies are now based. They have offices and they might even have headquarters in Cork. The Port of Cork has significant potential. Mr. Murphy mentioned that earlier and it is true. The coast of Cork, be it in mid-Cork or further west, has incredible potential for the production of floating offshore wind in particular. We have heard from Mr. Keating and Shannon Foynes Port Company about what they are doing to get ready for this future technology. Does Mr. Murphy not think there is a lack of ambition or short-sightedness? I am trying to use terms in the least condescending way. I am saying that at this point we should surely be readying ourselves for floating offshore use. Government certainly sees the potential in floating offshore. I know we have phases 1 and 2. Europe also sees the potential. There are about 10 GW of floating offshore due to be in place by 2030 in countries like Scotland, France, Portugal and Norway. The technology is not quite as advanced as it should be. It is great to see the master plan. Surely we should simultaneously focus on infrastructure for floating offshore wind in the Port of Cork as well, given the potential off the Cork coast.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

The Deputy's point is well made, but he has not had the benefit of seeing our master plan yet. It is being launched this week. It has huge ambition on floating offshore renewable energy. We are showing 22 ha of reclaimed land in the lower harbour to satisfy that. We are not saying it is something that will not happen. It will happen. We are saying that, right now, the immediate requirement of this Government is to have 5 GW of ORE in place by 2030. That can be mainly satisfied by fixed ORE under phase 1 and phase 2A. That is the first requirement. The second requirement is 20 GW by 2040, and 37 GW by 2050. That is in ten, 20 and 30 years time. The immediate call for Ireland is to get fixed ORE out there and get infrastructure in place for the ports to satisfy that. We have huge ambitions for floating. It was the same theme recently at the WindEurope Conference in Copenhagen - get fixed ORE built out and then focus on the floating. Do not confuse them.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have one final question as I am over time. Another fantastic potential facility for servicing mainly floating offshore wind is Bantry in west Cork, which also falls under the Port of Cork. Will that be contained in the master plan? I know we are waiting to see that. It is a deep port and has huge potential. It needs investment in infrastructure for sure. The big ferry operators are choosing Bantry as a port, which shows its potential and suitability. As Bantry is under the remit of the Port of Cork, I want to ask if that is also under the offshore renewable future.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

Yes, Bantry is identified specifically on that basis.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Are there no more details than that?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

We have called it up on the master plan as having huge potential particularly for floating. It is a huge, natural deepwater harbour and we are present there. Of course we will promote it.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is also an opportunity, while developing that, to simultaneously develop the leisure side in Bantry. There are groups who have identified fantastic plans in terms of provision of pontoons, marinas and so on to realise its potential.

I look forward to seeing the master plan. Mr Murphy is being very reserved with the information he is letting slip. When is it being launched?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

Next Thursday.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I am sure the Deputy, as a Cork representative, will get an invitation.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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They will get me to open the Bantry one, obviously.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for the really interesting presentations. I want to understand the ordering and what the State needs to do. So far, the auctions are only for three on the east coast and one on the west coast. The witness stated that even those are not yet bankable projects. There is a long way to go before we have a stream of bankable projects coming through this and subsequent auctions. How much of this early stage funding is needed? What is the State looking at in terms of an investment? I know the presentations mentioned a figure of a billion in investment but that was partly to do with the ports and was not exclusively in the offshore area. I am interested in getting a better handle on how governments are to order this process of upfront investing. Are there any models in other countries that we could look to? Did any country set up an Enterprise Ireland-type body that started to prioritise time and identify funding models that would work from the State's point of view as well as from the ports' and the industry's point of view? Do we have models to build on and how long is the State going to be out of pocket before it sees a flow? Presumably that weighs with people.

Allied to that, is there a pecking order we need to start considering, for example, starting with the east coast and then moving on when there is a line of sight on deliverable projects in other locations? Do ports have a specific geographic competitive advantage in that they can look at an array within a certain distance they can service in order that they are not competing with one another? It is to understand the process and how we can progress this.

Has an assessment been done for the business case for hydrogen production, sale and distribution? I know from a previous trip to Holland that Cork already has some links with the Dutch industry which is an enormous hub. What is the business case for hydrogen and how does that come together? Will it again require a lot of upfront State investment, taking the early phase capital strain, if you like? I would like to hear more from the witnesses as to how we might make that journey. It would allow lay people like ourselves to disentangle what we need to do and the order in which we need to do it.

Mr. Pat Keating:

The infrastructure required falls under two classifications, one being enabling and the other being the actual wind farm and the build-out. The enabling infrastructure is primarily the grid and the ports. In the plans for the Shannon Estuary, the State has a role, initially at least, in the enabling process of infrastructure funding. The developer infrastructure is done through the ORE system or a private wire network and other route-to-market strategies. Upfront and to get Ireland ready, it is about ensuring we have the enabling infrastructure in place to accommodate the sector. As I said, that comes back to grid and port infrastructure. Regarding our plans on the Shannon Estuary, there are two main infrastructure projects currently up and running which are going through or interacting with the planning system and preplanning, which are the Foynes Island development and the ESB's Green Atlantic at Moneypoint project. On top of that, we have looked at the potential for cable corridors through the estuary and, obviously, in consultation with EirGrid.

However, there is potentially a cost for that grid infrastructure. That is outside my expertise. Eirgrid would be better placed to inform the committee how that might be modelled. It needs to be in place or there must be a plan for it to be in place because the timing is important. If we look at phases 1, 2 and 3 under the enduring regime first, potentially at wind farms - apart from the Skerd Rocks wind farm which is fixed and can be managed within some of the existing port infrastructure on the estuary - there is a large-scale opportunity around the entire coast.

On the competition piece, we need several ports here. We are competing internationally, not nationally. The regimes in other countries, such as Portugal, Norway, the UK and France are slightly ahead of us. The resource is so large that we need a multi-port approach. That is part of the port's policy statement that was launched in 2021. That is a good thing. However, we must hone in on the enabling infrastructure. From a port perspective, our plans are all about ensuring we have the port infrastructure in place by the time it is needed. The funding model is part of that. Bechtel is a big infrastructure company so it has funding expertise. Part of its remit is to look at the various strategies and funding approaches. All this infrastructure will be commercial in time, but there is an initial period of two or three years, depending on how long it takes to get to the run rate or production stage. It could be a turbine a week or 30 turbines a week depending on the style of port infrastructure. Foynes Island needs to get up to 20 turbines per annum under phase 1. That has a capital expenditure cost on the offshore renewable energy, ORE, side of €360 million. The question is how that is funded. It can be funded under project finance, once the run rate of the 25 turbines is established, which means the scene has been set for the demand on the estuary for developers to build wind farms. Until we get there, we are potentially looking at a quasi sovereign debt model where the likes of the European Investment Bank, EIB, commercial banks syndicates as senior debt; the likes of the Irish Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, as equity debt; the port as equity; and the Connecting Europe Facility, CEF. By the way, we have already been successful in obtaining funding for Foynes Island for the pre-planning stage under the CEF Trans-European Network for Transport, TEN-T programme. We are already on the CEF radar. That is a 30% capital expenditure potential on works. That is a hugely important factor. Going back to the funding model, as I said, it is somewhat premature today to be talking specifically about what the right model is. We have started the conversation with our shareholder which is the Department of Transport in this case. Models are available, but given the nascent nature of this sector, the State-----

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Are the models sort of arm's length from the Government, like Enterprise Ireland with its own board and decision making process or are they more public service led?

Mr. Pat Keating:

The ports are directly involved in borrowing from the State for example. Lending could also be done through an EIB syndicated model under which the State may give some level of guarantee or surety at the outset for the initial phase, until the projects can be switched to a project finance model where the private sector takes over the Government's surety or guarantees. That period depends on how successful Ireland is at attracting developers to build out wind farms, in our case in the Atlantic Ocean. Given the available resource and the demand from Europe, that period should be quite short.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Until we have hydrogen as a credible route, does that cap our-----

Mr. Pat Keating:

I do not think so because for example, the Science Foundation Ireland Research Centre for Energy, Climate and Marine, MaREI, has stated that once we electrify transport and industrial heat, our grid requirements will be 27 GW by 2050.

Phase 1 of Foynes, for example, and the Green Atlantic Moneypoint projects, are 10 GW by 2050. The domestic demand is going to grow pretty exponentially from where it is today anyway but it comes back to the holistic approach. We require the grid, obviously offshore and onshore, to be improved as well to be able to accommodate that type of increase. It is currently around 5.5 to 6 GW. Domestic demand is actually going to be quite significant. However, the route-to-markets are potentially hydrogen production but there are also a number of others such as interconnection with Ireland to the likes of France and the UK. There is the hybrid model where power could be sold directly from the offshore sites and not have to land that grid in Ireland. Therefore, there are a number of different route-to-market strategies. There is also a big opportunity because the green energy we are producing will be in huge demand and we should be able to attract in more value added to the shores of Ireland, in downstream users such as chip manufacturers, data centres and all of that. Once we have our turbines producing zero carbon energy, that will be a huge selling point for Ireland Inc. There is a lot of opportunity to grow through private wires as well where the power would be brought ashore and the users would be located shoreside in this energy concept model. There is also potential there. However, the first part of all of this is ensuring we get out of the blocks. The system is being overhauled. As I said, a lot of work has been done over the recent months to ensure that is happening. We just need to keep the foot down and the timelines around designated marine area plans, DMAPS, marine area consents, MACS, and the maritime area regulatory authority, MARA, at this state are important. The funding piece for the enabling structure infrastructure is critically important as well.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

Deputy Bruton is right in the question he asked. He is asking what the ask is of committees like this one, and of Government. We need to bring that ask clearly to the Government. The simple fact is that in the next few weeks we will have a very detailed business case. We would say that it is the first one that has been done through serious in-depth dialogue with developers on what they are willing to pay per square metre and what port dues will typically be generated. The simple fact is that a revenue model has to be built when looking at the scale of borrowing that will be required. The average contract with each developer will be 18 to 24 months for each developer. These are short-term contracts although we are looking at many of these contracts over the coming decades. The simple fact is that each developer we meet will probably want access to a port for about 18 to 24 months. Again, these are short-term revenue opportunities over what we really need which is a long-term repayment of the borrowings. The models such as ten-year or 20-year return on investments have to all be looked at again. This is national strategic investment. If I was in a port in France today, of which I have visited a few, I might see a much longer payment model agreed either through the region or direct investment and so forth. It is incumbent on us to bring forward the business cases that can stand up to scrutiny and to public spending codes and in the coming weeks we will be bringing that to the Department.

The Deputy is also right in terms of the sequence because there is a very clear sequence in the renewable electricity support scheme, RESS, auctions. We saw it last week. There are three of them on the east coast. The next phase will be the east coast coming around by Cork. We have to focus on delivering the infrastructure for them. Like everything in business, location is key. We are within 60 to 100 nautical miles of the majority of the wind farms. It makes absolute commercial sense and absolute sustainable sense in terms of the environment and the distances that ships, barges, and crews would be travelling, that we do this in the most efficient and most cost-effective way. Location is key in that from a port point of view, like all of our activities. What made Rosslare so successful with Brexit? It was the closest port to Europe which attracted shipping lines that could have frequent services and a lot of capacity commercially. That is what it is all about. It is no different in this industry as well. Some of these vessels will be chartering at hundreds of thousands of euro per day. The last thing any developer wants is to be losing downtime in the supply chain. That is added cost at all times. We have to come around. We have to follow the market here to make sure we are approaching that.

We might come across as though we are all competitive, which we obviously are, and I want to get as much business for Rosslare Europort as is feasible. However, at the same time, there is a need for at least three ports to be developed in the Republic of Ireland. We are not going to be involved in floating offshore wind farms because the projections of what will be needed far exceed what we are capable of doing. We accept that although it may change in time. We cannot keep deepening ports. We have seen that in other sectors of port activity where the industry has become more agile. People used to tell me that ships are getting deeper but they are now getting wider and longer because dredging is very expensive. We must be ready for phases 1 and 2. The same is true in Cork. At the same time, the Shannon Estuary must be developed. However, we must keep our focus on phases 1 and 2. We cannot miss out. Some of these companies will be in phase 1, 2, 3 or 4. If they set up their bases somewhere outside the jurisdiction, with all of the supporting activities around that, it will become very difficult to move all of that activity. It might be possible to move the shipping but we might lose the heavy concentration we have been talking about and jobs that create regional development. We believe up to 2,000 jobs will be created in the south east alone. We cannot lose sight of that because it is the big prize at the end of all of this.

In respect of the funding, we simply have to find a way through. Whatever mechanism we use, we must see support for the ports and the provision of funding. I am convinced by what I have heard from the Department and all of the agencies that everyone wants the same goal and we can make it happen. Equally, we have to bring forward a business case that can be fully scrutinised to ensure it stacks up.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

We are commercial semi-State companies so we follow a different model from the one in France, where, in places such as Port-la-Nouvelle, it is possible to build out purpose-built renewable energy, RE, facilities. Their system comprises municipalities, which are like local councils, that can give out their own money for a build. We are different in that context. The Irish Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, which is a patient capital kind of model, fits into what can support the ports.

Many industries fed back. There are constraints at the moment in that offshore renewable platforms are fixed at 60 m of water depth. However, there is evidence in other ports around the world where that has been pushed up to 70 m, 80 m and beyond. There is potential there to push out the boundaries of what can be facilitated in the first fixed offshore renewable industry.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I apologise for popping in and out of the meeting. I may ask questions that have already been asked. We are talking about the development that our guests need in order to play a part in offshore wind development. I note that the development in Rosslare will happen in 2027, assuming everything goes according to plan and that the planning process is very quick, which is often not the case. Is it the case that it is hoped construction of the four options that were approved this week will begin by 2027? There will be a time lag. If the Port of Rosslare, for example, is not developed until 2027, the work will already have started. Is there a risk the port will miss the construction phase of those phase 1 developments?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

The developments themselves are going into a planning process. They need to get through planning as quickly as we do. There are many positive things about the planing process that are in favour of Rosslare. We have had expert consultants in. There is no reason we cannot get through the planning process in six to nine months. As I said earlier, we have a foreshore licence. We will be submitting our maritime area consent, MAC, as soon as we can. At the same time, we are doing something different in Rosslare. We are doing the design and tender specification in parallel with the planning. Some people might say that is high risk but we simply cannot afford to wait to go through planning and only then consider design and build-out. Once we receive planning permission, we will go straight into construction, which will be a 12- to 18-month build. We will have the facility ready by the end of 2026. That is aligned. We are in conversation with all of the developers. If I have that facility ready in 2026, will I have a queue of activities ready to go? Possibly not.

It is probably likely to be into 2027. The other thing about these developments is we are going to start by building the berths and then we will start adding on the land. We do not need the 22 ha straight away; we need it in the coming years. I reassure everybody here that Rosslare Europort will deliver the ORE national hub and we will be ready for the developers in phase 1.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Carr. Coming back to the governance models as well, is it correct that Rosslare Europort is a commercial semi-State company? Wicklow and Arklow ports are under the governance of Wicklow County Council, so that is a separate model to some degree. I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I am very disappointed that we do not have anyone from Wicklow and Arklow ports here to take part in this discussion today, in particular given that the phase 1 developments are happening primarily off the Wicklow coast. Therefore, they do need to be part of the discussion. I will be raising that with them.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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For clarity, they were invited today.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I will follow up with you, Chair. It is important that they attend and it is a missed opportunity for them not to be part of this discussion. I thank the representatives who have come to see us today.

I wonder about the governance, in particular in Rosslare. This is something that is sitting at the back of my memory. Does the UK Government have ownership? I am originally from Wexford town and this is one of the points that always comes up. It is one of the reasons there was such a lack of investment. It was always seen as a barrier. Could Mr. Carr explain to me the involvement of the UK Government in Rosslare Europort, and whether that could create a barrier when it comes to its development, but also the risk if the State is to fund the development of the port? Where is the State’s control and involvement in the money?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

I will not bore everybody with the details of the history of the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company, but what I can-----

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I saw Mr. Carr put his head in his hands when I mentioned it.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

What I can assure everybody, as we got legal advice on this, is that it would never have inhibited investment into the port. I cannot comment on the reasons before, but in the past five to seven years we have seen a total transformation in it.

The reality is that the original Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company pertains to the original piece of infrastructure that was in the original port back in the 1890s. Ever since then, in terms of any of the development that happened, the licence and ownership of the land came under CIÉ and therefore the State. Any future developments or investment in Rosslare Europort fully belongs to the Irish State. Likewise, on the Fishguard side, we have no call on Fishguard, which is run by Stena Line. There is a technical matter that involves the original formation of the harbour company, which does today sit on the London Stock Exchange, but it does only involve that section of the port which is not involved in any of the upgrades or master plans that we are seeing today. The border control post that is being built at terminal 7 is being accessed through the Brexit resilience fund. We addressed that issue there. We have also assured the Department based on the legal advice that we have received that any investment into the ORE facility will be 100% part of the State.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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So Mr. Carr has legal advice to that effect. Was it ever considered that it should be a separate entity, and whether the future development of the harbour should be separate to that historical deal, as such, in order to have complete clarity in regard to it?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

It is something we look at. It is a matter of Government policy. It does require legislative change to unravel that small piece of legislation both from the UK point of view and in Ireland. We manage it, run it and we invest in it fully on the basis of growing the port. We are not inhibited in any shape or form in doing that, despite the perception there might have been in the past.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Carr. I wish to clarify the position from a co-ordination perspective, given that we have a lot of different port entities. I understand there is a working group in the Department.

Have the roles of the different ports ever been examined to say, for instance, we expect Rosslare Europort to be the port of choice with regard to the phase 1 developments? Then, the likes of Arklow and Wicklow would do the smaller jobs. Obviously, however, when these big turbines come in, a big port is needed to deal with them and, similarly, with Shannon Foynes Port and the Port of Cork. Has a strategic decision like that been made by Government and the ports would then row into that? Is it more that whoever makes the best business case and is in the right place at the right time gets it? I am not sure; this is a very new conversation for us.

Mr. Pat Keating:

There was a ports policy statement exactly to that effect, which was in December 2021. That strongly promoted a multi-port approach basically because of the size of the resource, and proximity to the resource is important from a port point of view. It is just that Ireland is so fortunate to have a huge exclusive economic zone, EEZ. Even with the infrastructure we are promoting in the Shannon estuary, for example, by implementing all our phases, and because the supply chain almost becomes the constraint and not the resource, we can build out 30 GW from wind farms by 2050. If we look at European demand, it is put at 450 GW by 2050. That resource and energy is absolutely needed in the European context. To be honest with the Deputy, there are probably not enough ports in a way given the scale of it. That is the huge opportunity. As a country, we are extremely fortunate that is on our doorstep.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How often do the port representatives meet with the Department?

Mr. Pat Keating:

In our case, it would be very regularly. Obviously, there are informal and formal meetings but we have on the formal side, for example, quarterly shareholder meetings and all of that. Informally, it could be telephone calls every day. It just depends on the circumstances. There is a very strong relationship, however.

In terms of the offshore renewable energy, ORE, opportunity, the Department of Transport is full square on it. From our perspective, we can see that our plans are being prioritised.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Keating.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Whitmore. I will go to Senator Pauline O'Reilly now.

Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
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It is disappointing that representatives from Rossaveel could not be here today. I know they were also contacted by the committee and could not make it.

It is quite clear from many conversations I have had that the important thing is long-term planning. As has been said, it will be some time before planning is through and yet we need the port infrastructure to be in place and ready, and that gives confidence to the market as well.

The witnesses have spoken about the first four projects that obviously had successful bidders last week, one of those being Galway. However, when we look at the potential, particularly on the west coast, what I hear from the ports I am in contact with, whether that be in Killybegs, Rossaveel or the Port of Galway, is that they also need the same kind of long-term security.

I am delighted to hear Mr. Keating mention the multi-port strategic development. That is certainly what we saw when we went on a delegation to Scotland. Developers can say they are going to use this port and then some way down the line find that it is actually not the best port for what they need and they need to look at alternatives. If the alternatives are not there, the business is lost and the potential for Ireland is lost.We certainly saw that with Moray East when we were there. The plan had been to go with one port and then it shifted to another one. It is important that we keep on saying that because I can see that competitiveness sometimes slips in into conversations and I do not think it is helpful for anybody.

I want to go back to what the Chair mentioned at the start about rail down the west coast as well the south east. That is really important. The more we can put on the record the importance of that for the witnesses' industry both in terms ofORE but also other kinds of plans they have for their ports, the better. Obviously, we are concentrating on ORE but in my experience, all ports have several streams. In order to keep above board and stay afloat, for want of a better term, they need to ensure they have all those bases covered. Those are my general points. Many of the other points have been covered.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Does anybody wish to respond? Mr. Carr is indicating.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

On rail, my other role in Irish Rail is the rail freight strategy for the country. We have a very ambitious rail freight strategy essential to which is the connection of the seaports. We have seen the reinstatement of Shannon Foynes line. We will be working with Cork on the reinstatement to Marino Point. Waterford is already rail connected, with Rosslare in the medium to long term. The reality is that many of the offshore renewable energy, ORE, components will never go by rail. They will never leave the inside of the port because they are so big. However, it is essential and Rosslare Europort will be rail connected. We await the all-island rail review with regard to the Waterford to Wexford line.

This is all from a regional balance perspective but it is essential that Dublin Port has a rail-based solution in its expansion. It is essential that any big inland development in Dublin Port is rail-based and not road based. Dublin Port needs to continue to have rail going in there. When one considers the regional ports, we will have Rosslare, Waterford, Cork, and Shannon Foynes connected, and we will have the rail all the way up to the west of Ireland where the ambition of many multinational companies is to switch from road to rail. That is our stated ambition.

We will also create some intermodal hubs that will provide the relevant warehousing and so on that is required. This will be rail but we will still need road connection. Road will be done for the much smaller journey in a much more sustainable way. Rail can be very competitive over the distances covered in Ireland despite, again, what people might think. It is a simple fact that the top two things that industry wants going forward now, apart from efficiency and profit, is a sustainable way to move its supply chain. We must be very careful, in that if Ireland does not offer a sustainable way to move goods, in time the decision-makers may make other decisions for their plants to be developed elsewhere. These are the conversations we are having with multinationals today who want to be ready over the next three, five and 15 years to be fully green in the way they move their goods that move through Ireland, into Europe and onwards around the globe. Currently, they often move this into Europe by rail and around the world by rail, but within Ireland we just do not do enough in that regard. Together with the ports and with industry, we are going to address that in the coming years.

Mr. Pat Keating:

I would like to support Mr. Carr's points. On rail, we called it out in our original master plan back in 2013. Thankfully, the construction is now under way. It is a key piece of where we see our future. Part of our Foynes project is to grow the existing freight traffic as well because it is not just all about ORE. Given the population growth in Ireland, freight is going to grow considerably because it is almost a one for one correlation. We see rail as having a role to play there and there is a big ambition. Currently, Ireland is roughly 1% rail freight. To grow that into the EU average, or to get growth significantly, there is a lot of headroom there for us as a country. Again, I welcome the co-operation between ourselves and Irish Rail, which is very strong on that front, to ensure we can deliver other options and decarbonise for existing freight traffic for Ireland.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I might just jump in on this topic of rail with Mr. Carr and Mr. Kenny. My first question is around track access charges. Do they have any comment to make on that? I understand these are very high relative to other European countries. Is there a plan as part of the strategy to bring those charges down?

My second question is about Dublin Port and its 3FM Project master plan. Have the witnesses engaged with Dublin Port or has Dublin Port engaged with them on that? I am aware there is a public conversation now between the Minister and the board of the port around the importance of rail. Am I correct in saying that we are not seeing this in the master plan as of yet? If I am hearing the witnesses correctly they are arguing for a review of the master plan.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

We are having a lot of dialogue with Dublin Port and the Department at the moment. We disagree with the 3FM Project, in that it has the potential to be the largest inland facility in the country but it will not be rail connected. We believe that any inland port facility on a scale of that nature must be rail connected. We will be engaging on that footing at all times with regard to a conversation with Dublin Port. We recognise Dublin Port's capacity constraints.

However, there is an opportunity for other regional ports to be developed in order to alleviate some of that capacity constraint. One of the really interesting statistics that came from Brexit is that once the land bridge went, 52% of that traffic came to Rosslare. Even though Dublin Port is five times the size of Rosslare in terms of activity, 52% of that traffic migrated to Rosslare. It migrated very successfully, without either major congestion issues or cost implications. What that means is that as you develop the regional ports, you are addressing some of the congestion issues that may face ports such as Dublin. At the same time, we must ensure that there is sustainable infrastructure in and ways of moving freight and people through our ports. If we do not have that in our key ports, we will really struggle to get momentum regarding our rail freight strategy ambitions. This is simply because of the sheer scale of Dublin Port. That is where we stand on that. We are very open and clear on that.

Regarding track access, much work has been done in the last while on track access charging. We continue to look at that in terms of the rate per tonne. Cost is a critical issue in the supply chain, but, equally, we must recognise that a premium is there for sustainability, and there are now green bonuses for industry. I therefore say that there is a much more mature model emerging. Constantly, rail was compared with the rate per road. Ireland has very aggressive road haulage rates. Many of those in industry, particularly large industry, are looking at it in the round as regards not just the pure cost of the transport, but with all the other added benefits. We will find it to be a very competitive rail proposition. We already do. Some very big multinationals are using rail as we speak today. They are often very aggressive with their pricing models. They also recognise the benefits and values that rail brings. We need to balance that because we cannot run to the bottom of the ladder. We need to provide a service that needs to be efficient and needs to be invested in, for example, additional freight capacity. We have to find the right price point. Track access is part of that and we will do that.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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They are among the highest, if not the highest, in Europe at the moment.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

Yes, although we have significantly reduced them since the most recent report was done. They have been significantly reduced. Where it is a freight-only line, it is different to a passenger-shared line. In a shared line, you are probably looking at the marginal additional cost. The track has to be maintained there anyway for passengers. Therefore, we employ a marginal rate in that circumstance. There is a broader debate about freight-only line. Where there is freight-only line, either the State will have to step in and subsidise it or the corporate world will have to pay for that infrastructure. Our job is to deliver that infrastructure in the most efficient and safe way. I distinguish between a freight-only line and a passenger line, because two different rates kick in when you are looking at track access charges.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Which are the freight-only lines?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

Tara Mines, which is the Navan line, is a freight-only line. Going forward, under our freight strategy, the right thing to do is to always be building, think about how a line will be a shared line and ensure that we are putting in freight-only lines that cover a cluster of industries. For example, in Shannon Port, Mr. Keating will have the potential to develop an even bigger inter-modal hub than Dublin Port. Therefore, clusters of industry will use that one line, but it will be shared across multiple industries. The current Tara Mines Navan line is just for one company. Therefore, there is only one revenue stream coming in, and we have to balance the costs against that company.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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On the Foynes line, even though the contract at the moment is to develop for freight purposes, we see in the mid west that it can have multiple uses. In particular, there is a passenger opportunity on that line as well. The Ryder Cup will be taking place here in 2027. We would really like to see passenger services provided on the line in advance of that. We spoke yesterday about the new station in Raheen. There was a wonderful announcement regarding analogue devices there. There are approximately 8,000 people working in Raheen. I would not like to see that line being considered as freight only. The opportunity for the region is far greater than that, notwithstanding how important freight is.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all our guests this morning.

It is great to hear such positive plans and see ambition. However, I want to put some of the concerns raised by Wind Energy Ireland and at least give the witnesses an opportunity to respond. Wind Energy Ireland stated that, right now, those behind offshore wind projects still have no idea which Irish ports, if any, will be available to construct the wind farms we need. I would like to hear the witnesses' opinion on that. Will they give a timeline for when they believe they will be in production in terms of wind farms? What is the potential for jobs? Crucially, what are the skill sets and how are we geared up in a very tight labour market to find the people we need to deliver the production that will be crucial to the success of these projects? It would be helpful if the witnesses could comment on that the role education may play in that.

Mr. Pat Keating:

We have been very public with our plans in Foynes. We appointed Bechtel in March or April last year to do an extensive strategic review of our master plan. This included extensive stakeholder consultations, including probably with Wind Energy Ireland. The master plan was published and launched last November by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan. Our timelines and when we hope to deliver are clear in the master plan. Our timelines dovetail with the phase 1, 2 and 3 enduring regime. Due to re-enabling infrastructure, we need to be there as fast as we can at this stage. We have pencilled in delivery for 2028. That allows for an element of judicial review, by the way.

The skill sets here are wide and diverse. All of the universities in the mid-west region, including the University of Limerick, UL, Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, and the Munster Technological University in Tralee, are looking at this from both a skill set and a research and development point of view. As I keep saying about research and development in this sector, there is a huge role for technology in bringing down costs of production, particularly in the area of floating. Cost of production will be important because this electricity will be competing across Europe. Whether that is drone technology, for example, in terms of operation and maintenance, blade technology and all of these kinds of things, it is very wide. There is huge scope for both research and technology spend and for the skill sets from apprenticeships through to engineers and all of the tertiary sector, including finance and funding.

It is very broad. There are a raft of figures that can be quoted in terms of jobs per gigawatt. The Danes did a study in the summer of 2020 and came up with a number of 14,000 jobs per gigawatt onshore supporting their offshore. They have a very well developed supply chain. The licensing of much of this - and this has been done across Europe - can dictate how much local supply chain content we want in our bidding process. That can be inserted as a key criterion to be looked at, and it is being looked at.

Mr. Glenn Carr:

We are members of Wind Energy Ireland. Most of the ports are members and it is a very helpful and good association. We are in detailed commercial discussions with the developers and it is now very clear that the ports have a clear path. Our delivery plan is to be ready in late 2026 or early 2027. That is aligned and as the Senator can imagine, people want to keep the pressure on in commercial conversations. He is right that there is not a port in the Republic of Ireland with the physical infrastructure ready today but we will certainly be ready in 2027 and in time to provide the support. We work closely with Wind Energy Ireland and all the developers to ensure that.

In terms of the skill set, in Rosslare we also work with Wexford County Council, Enterprise Ireland, Skillnet Ireland and the universities. This is not just about creating a piece of infrastructure in the port but about creating a hub and supporting the industries with training facilities and so on. It is about new enterprise and start-ups. In my visits to the some of the ports, I have found that some of the small components are starting to be made in the local area.

There is a history of jobs like that, involving fabrication skills, in the south east, which are key skills that need to be brought back. The universities are certainly looking at, and are working with the developers on, where the next generation of skills will come from. We are starting to see that happening already as regards courses being developed. The good thing is, from talking to these companies, many Irish people who have gone abroad to work in this sector are now migrating back. That connection is there.

Regional areas, such as Rosslare and Wexford, can offer housing, a way of life and schooling that are probably not subject to the same degree of pressures there are in the major cities. For any of the developers we are talking to, that work-life balance, as well as an available labour force or a labour force that is being developed for the future, is essential. We are working together and have endorsements from all the county councils in the south east. We are working with Waterford Port on operations and maintenance, OM, in addition to Wicklow which will be doing the OM, and so on. It is about creating that cluster and then delivering that activity, at the end of the day, for customers who, in this case, are the developers. That is all part of their decision-making when they are looking at a site.

Sometimes, it is not just about the port. That infrastructure is essential but it is about what else is wrapped around that port that creates the hub. If the hub is created, then jobs are created. We have estimated that up to 2,000 jobs could be created in heavy construction and ongoing OM. If there is no port infrastructure, the reality is there is potentially a big risk of losing that cluster and hub.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

To answer the Senator's first question, we should be ready by quarter 1 2026 with infrastructure to support renewable energy, RE. The committee will also see our master plan this week, which will show the graphics. I included some of them in the opening statement.

It is important to say, in the context of our consultations on the master plan with all these developers over the past couple of years, there is already a significant amount of expertise in Ireland. Many of these companies are not only based in Ireland but have built out many of the onshore wind farms around the country. There are two in County Cork alone, namely, Statkraft and Ørsted. There is also Energia and Corio. All have places in Ireland and have built up huge expertise around Ireland and Europe. Many of them have built out offshore wind farms in Europe. The expertise is also in Ireland and there are many engineering jobs in that regard.

It is one thing to build out during the construction phase. It is even more important that there are sustainable jobs after that. That is the OM of the wind farms. There is big potential for sustainable jobs in that area.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank all the representatives for coming. I apologise for just arriving and firing questions at them that have probably been asked. If they have, I ask our guests to indulge me and give some brief answers to them.

My first question is in the context of our rising emissions, which shot up by 12% in the final months of last year. This was the complete opposite to most other European countries. We are an outlier among the 27 member states with our emissions heading in the wrong direction. I have listened to this discussion, and taken into account all the planning and development of offshore wind, which is very important and the way to go, etc. The witnesses may reference commercial sensitivity and all the rest of it, but is there a coherent, integrated plan for what companies go into what port? Are the ports competing against each other? In that sense, is it a mishmash of who gets to grab what company, of the ones that have been given licences and may commercially organise offshore wind? As offshore wind is not a national, State-owned enterprise, it could be a mishmash of different companies in different ports. Is there any rational, joined-up thinking about who goes where, and when and how? Is it a case that each port is competing with the others? That is not helpful for transport, emissions or our plan for the future.

On liquefied natural gas, LNG, terminals, the Business Post recently reported that the port of Cork has signed heads of agreement with a US firm to explore the possibility of setting up a floating LNG facility in Cork harbour.

The answer may be - but it is not what I want to hear - that it is not fracked gas and that it is just other kinds of gas. But whether it is fracked or not, we need to take account of what the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and the International Energy Agency are saying, which is that there can be no new fossil fuel infrastructure in any country if we are really to deal with the catastrophe that is facing us. After all, that is what this committee is all about. Therefore, as well as commenting on the Port of Cork, can each witness address whether they would allow or welcome or if they are in discussion on any LNG company about terminals like this on their sites? Do they think it is compatible with our just transition targets and our targets to reduce emissions?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

On the first part and LNG in the Port of Cork, our paymaster is the Government. We are awaiting the energy security document that is to be issued by the Government. On the back of whatever the Government decides, we will take that steer. As a commercial State company, we are mandated and obliged to have enough port capacity to meet demand. We look at what the demand is in the market but, ultimately, it is up to the Government, which is our paymaster, to decide where that goes.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is the Business Postright that the Port of Cork signed heads of agreement with a US firm?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

There is a memorandum of understanding, MOU, in place with the company. That is all. As for heads of terms, I do not think it has gone that far.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Sorry, will Mr. Murphy say that again?

Mr. Tim Murphy:

An MOU was signed, I believe.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is not heads of agreement but an MOU.

Mr. Tim Murphy:

I think so.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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And would the rest of the ports welcome LNG? Has there been discussions in Foynes or anywhere else?

Mr. Pat Keating:

An application relating to an LNG terminal at Ballylongford is going through the planning process. The application is with An Bord Pleanála. Consent for the project was given. Our role as a port authority is to ensure that we can oversee the traffic to and from the terminal. We have been part of the planning process from a maritime navigation safety point of view. We have looked at it from that perspective, which was positive, but we are not the arbiters of whether or not that project goes ahead. It is within the planning system.

On co-ordination for ORE among the ports, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, launched the policy statement in December 2021. Some of this is based on natural positioning too. For example, different types of port infrastructure are required. There is marshalling port which is potentially for the construction phase and then there is the operations and maintenance facilities as well. The marshalling port stage requires deep water ports to assist in the construction of the actual wind farm devices to be towed offshore. It is necessary to have deep water port assets or deep water in a harbour. For floating, significant wet-storage areas are required. There are natural advantages, as well as the proximity to the resources offshore where those farms are deemed to go.

The policy is evolving around it. We mentioned DMAPs, MARA and maritime area consents and all that. Much of that is to ensure that the sites are well chosen from an environmental perspective. And this all has to be environmentally sustainable development. Those tests are carried out through those processes, particularly under the planning process which will do most of the environmental investigative-type work for offshore under the new Maritime Area Planning Act. There is a pretty co-ordinated approach to that. A DMAP consultation is ongoing. Sustainable development of port infrastructure and these wind farms is top of the agenda.

Ports are also environmentally sensitive areas and all of us involved in the ports are very conscious of that. The ports need to comply with that policy, and, of course, we will comply with it.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I apologise for being so specific about this. Is Mr Keating implying that there is not competition between the ports and that they have co-ordinated, joined-up thinking at national level about who goes where?

Mr. Pat Keating:

Ultimately, our customers will decide who goes where.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is not the State and not the port authorities.

Mr. Pat Keating:

No, we try to determine that they come to us by offering efficient services and good infrastructure that is fit for purpose. That is based on the framework of the company law structure under which we were established.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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So the ports are competing with each other.

Mr. Pat Keating:

We do compete against each other.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Instead of joining it up and co-ordinating who goes where. That is what I thought. I thank Mr. Keating.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I am coming at this as someone who represents a constituency on the east coast. Is it correct that there are plans for freight to be moved on the Rosslare to Dublin line? If there are, then that railway line is not going to be utilised as part of any of the wind farm operations. I understand that the Waterford to Wexford line is under review. When will the strategic review to determine whether that railway line will reopen be finalised?

Mr. Glenn Carr:

I want to be clear that the components for ORE would not be moved by rail. It does not work that way. They are all brought in, stored and preassembled within the port confinement. We are talking about blades of 120 m in length, for instance. They cannot even go out on the public road. Some smaller components may be moved by rail but that would be if they were manufactured here in Ireland and being moved to a particular port. Some smaller components will come in on the ro-ro ferries into Rosslare. They will move into the designated area of the hub for that. The rail line from Dublin to Rosslare is a single line and it is a commuter line. It also has tunnels, etc., on it. It would not be the route that we would be using in terms of rail freight when Rosslare is rail connected. If we continue what we spoke about earlier with connection into Waterford Port - we will connect into Cork in the future and Shannon Foynes is being connected - the natural route, depending on the all-Ireland rail review outcome, would be at that point that the Wexford to Waterford line would be reopened. We would go across that either onward to the west or at that point use the double tracks, etc., out of Waterford, which, obviously, would free up much more rail utilisation to be maximised for freight.

The outcome of the all-Ireland rail review is pending. Mr. Kenny might comment on when that is likely to be completed.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

The Department of Transport here and the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland are leading the review which is nearing completion. There are some issues with its publication owing to the absence of the Northern Ireland Executive. The Department would be very keen for the opportunity for public engagement on its findings in the relatively short term, hopefully in the coming months. Issues such as Waterford to Rosslare and other routes where there are aspirations for reopening and building the capacity of the existing rail network on a long-term strategic basis are all encompassed in that. We look forward to seeing its publication. There is a very strong momentum behind expanding the role of rail as part of our sustainability solutions.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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The Wexford to Waterford railway line appears to be a really important link to enable the offshore-----

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It would be more in terms of longer term rail freight connectivity for Rosslare. In the past, it had a significant role in the context of rail freight. When the sugar beet industry was active in Ireland, it had a hub there and was very intensively used on a seasonal basis for freight.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Does it need much upgrading?

It was used up to quite recently. My understanding is that there is still some maintenance traffic on it.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

We do care and maintenance, and there are weed spraying operations. There would absolutely be a requirement for investment if the decision to reopen it were made.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Kenny. On Shannon, Mr. Kenny welcomed the environmental considerations. The Shannon Estuary is incredibly important from an environmental perspective. It is a special area of conservation, SAC. Does Mr. Keating see any challenges with that because the plans he has for growth and the involvement with the offshore wind sector will involve an amount of industrialisation in the area. Can he see that the two of those will operate in tandem or does he have any concerns about this work when the area is an SAC and the impact it could have on the environment?

Mr. Pat Keating:

The Shannon Estuary is probably one of the most industrialised areas in Ireland, relatively speaking anyway. If one looks across the estuary, there is power generation and a lot of large-scale manufacturing activities as well. Obviously, it adds an extra layer of complexity. It is important to note that it is not an either-or situation as regards the habitat directives. What the directives promote is a sustainable approach to development. EU maritime policy recognises the importance of ports and the positioning of ports across Europe that happen to be in sensitive ecological areas. It does add an extra level of complexity but by no means do the designations preclude development.

The port has had recent planning applications in respect of the estuary. A multitude of planning applications in sensitive environmental areas across Europe have been granted. One takeaway from that is that one can develop in an environmentally sensitive area as long as it is done in accordance with the various requirements. We looked at that in the context of our master plan. The areas we identified in our master plan have already been subject to significant environmental screening. For example, the Shannon Estuary integrated framework plan was completed in 2013. A great deal of environmental-type work, assessing the cumulative effect, etc, was done in respect of that plan. We are looking at sites that have been zoned because of their proximity to deep water but that are the least interfering from an environmental perspective as well.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Whitmore. As no other committee members are indicating, we reached the end of our proceedings in good time. I thank everyone for attending. It was a very interesting discussion and will give the committee a sense of the challenges involved and that the witnesses are ready and clearly know what needs to be done. The committee has a report outstanding from last year, but we will take this session and discussion and supplement the draft report with what has been said during these proceedings. We hope to issue the report in the not too distant future. Once again, I thank everyone for coming. Their time is very much appreciated.