Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and people in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones, please. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

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Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance regarding participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The purpose of today's meeting is to undertake an examination of a new school of veterinary medicine in Ireland.

In the first session, the committee will hear from the following representatives from the Veterinary Council of Ireland, Professor Vivienne Duggan, VCI president, and Ms Niamh Muldoon, registrar and CEO; and from the following representatives from the Higher Education Authority, Dr. Alan Wall, chief executive officer, Mr. Tim Conlon, head of policy and strategic planning, and Dr. Victoria Brownlee, senior manager, system development and performance management. The two groups have indicated that they would prefer to go straight into a question-and-answer session, as their opening statements have already been distributed. We will, therefore, do that. The witnesses are all very welcome here. There are many students who want to do veterinary medicine and they are going overseas to do it. UCD has its quota. We are finding it very hard to meet the number of veterinarians required in this country. This discussion is, therefore, extremely timely and worthwhile. There has been a lot of media attention on the issue in the last while. We would like to see where the Veterinary Council of Ireland and the Higher Education Authority see the debate on establishing a second school of veterinary medicine in the country.

I call Senator Paul Daly.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief because I have read all the submissions, including the ones we received from the farm representative bodies. It has been the first time since I entered these Houses that everybody is on one page. I presume everybody in here is also. Even with the best will in the world, I will not be able to create a bit of controversy this evening.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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You will succeed.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The farm bodies are looking for it and everybody sees the need for it. I think all the witnesses have accepted it at this stage and are very much in favour of it. They, along with the Department, are well down the road, having sent out the expressions of interest. It looks like it is happening. I appreciate, and this will shorten my contribution even more, the fact they have sent out expressions of interest and have received some. I would not expect the witnesses to go into it further while it is still at that stage.

I have a couple of quick questions, one of which came up in one of the presentations by the farm organisations. When this happens, will an allowance to be made for people who have attended agricultural college or otherwise as opposed to having to achieve high points? The points are getting higher because there is a limited number of places. With the greatest of respect to our students, not everybody who has achieved high points might be the ideal candidate for veterinary medicine. However, somebody who may be from an agricultural background and who may not have achieved the points in the leaving certificate but who went to agricultural college and who may know a lot about the practical element of dealing with animals could progress. Will provision be made in whatever new courses are introduced? Thank God, it looks like it is afait accomplithat they will be introduced.

My other point relates to UCD, which has not been included this evening. I would not like the message to go out from here that anybody has anything negative to say about the service that is being provided by UCD. It is a numbers game, as opposed to a quality of service or a quality of the graduate issue. However, I presume its hands are tied with regard to expansion. Was that considered or looked at? Would it be a possibility that it could up their numbers? It has the know-how at this stage. It is world-renowned. We were lucky enough to visit Lyons Farm a couple of weeks ago where it has practical, hands-on facilities.If it is not broken, why fix it? Was that considered or is it a non-runner? Are its hands tied with regards to the expansion of numbers?

The number of students going overseas to be qualified was highlighted in almost everybody's submissions. I do not recollect whether anyone made a comparison as to what points, qualifications or criteria they needed in order to qualify for those courses they went to. Is that an issue? For the purpose of this evening's debate, if a student can get into a course in Budapest on the equivalent of 400 points, if we were to have more places here, would it be along the lines? The VCI will give the very same recognition to the person when they come home as they will to the person who has gone through UCD and who has achieved 600 points. If that comparison was made, it may give a scope to open up the qualification status.

I do not know whether I would have made a good vet and whether VCI would have certified me, but I never would have gotten those points. I would like to think, however, that I would have made a good vet, because I come from a farming background and because I have worked with animals since I was able to walk.

I do not think this is an area that should be points-oriented. However, I appreciate that in a system, especially where there are limited places, the points will have to keep going up to stay ahead of the posse. Approximately how many points will get you into one of the universities on the Continent or somewhere else? I would like the other questions I asked addressed.

I welcome the fact this is the first time I have been here when witnesses and colleagues are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Dr. Alan Wall:

The Senator's first question was about students who have other backgrounds, such as graduates in agriculture. We do not have a view on this, but we would not mind it if it did happen. One of the things we are concerned about, and UCD does this, is that there is a portfolio that tries to recognise the experience of individuals. It would be a matter for the college, but if it were possible for it to take, for example, agricultural science students into second year, that would not be an issue for us. It would be a matter for the colleges themselves, because, as the Senator knows, the way we run the system in Ireland, the colleges are autonomous institutions. We would certainly guide them towards at least the kind of portfolio that UCD does. It is our view that the portfolio UCD does could be broader, in order to deal with some of the issues that have been raised around the backgrounds of people who are getting in, the experience or the expectations they might have had of what veterinary practice might be like. We are open to that and it is not an issue for us.

I will come back to the points issue, if the Senator does not mind. I will address the issue of expansion. In our expressions of interest, we had four or five professional areas we were interested in to see what we could provide as a system and how the system would respond. As part of that, we asked right across medicine, veterinary and nursing, which are groups that already provide those professions, whether they could do an expansion. UCD, in fairness, responded positively to that. As the Senator alluded to earlier, I have a difficulty talking about some of this in detail, because it is an issue going to Government-----

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.

Dr. Alan Wall:

However, I can say that the expansion piece is certainly still live, as far as we are concerned. From the HEA's point of view, as I said in the opening statement, one of the things we are charged with is maintaining a balance in the system, planning it and thinking in a strategic way around it. As the Senator quite rightly said, there is a world-class provision from UCD. It is one of the best in the world. There is a question regarding a too-rapid expansion. Given where it is and the space it has, what is the likelihood of that being in some way damaged? As I also said, the consumer protection people have raised with us that there is one supplier of this. Except for optometry, it is probably the only profession where there is only one supplier in Ireland. There is expansion in there and we see it as being part of a blended response to the needs, rather than being a case of if-or.

On the issue of the points system, the net answer to the Senator's question is "No". We have not done an analysis of the points achieved by students who go away because, from our point of view, it is not the immediate issue we are trying to address. This is to be absolutely honest. I know they have requirements that are slightly different from the CAO piece. I think they are required to do exams before they enter the institutions. Much of the time these are in chemistry, maths and biology. This is slightly different from how we do it. Some of them recognise the leaving certificate. The issue of points is interesting for us in higher education. It is always an issue because it is not an educational requirement. In fairness to UCD, it does not set out the number of points it wants for veterinary medicine. Rather, the market does. In other words, it is the demand. The demand for the 82 or 83 places in UCD is 7:1 or 8:1. The points are always, therefore, going to be used as a differentiator. It is the same with medicine, law and history, for instance, in some institutions. It is about demand. As the Senator is aware, if you look at UCD's requirements for veterinary, they are not 600 points. I defer, but I think they require H2s and H3s in biology and chemistry, and H5s and H6s in maths.

They are not at 600 points. The 600 points is how they differentiate between applicants. That is always difficult for us. It is, as was said, the system we live with. However, there are ways - UCD has started down this road - of using the points added to graduates from other like or key areas, such as agriculture, but also portfolios, which is another way in.

I have seen some in the press talk about interviews and that maybe the farmers' sons and daughters should have a special provision. The difficulty with that in a system like ours that is so small is that if you start to allocate scarce places on the basis of what parents did it becomes really problematic across a number of areas.

Also, the points system is one we all struggle with. It is a good system in some ways but there are alternative methods. UCD has led on that, on the portfolio piece.

I do not know if that is any help.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Wall.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I echo the comments. This is a welcome discussion. It is a great opportunity for us as a nation to potentially have more access to veterinary medicine and expanded capacity.

In terms of the routes or terms of access, that is not for the veterinary council. We look at the standards once a programme is up and running. We have conversations with our counterparts all around the world. We know what other countries are looking at and doing, and the differing approaches in terms of diversity and positive discrimination in some cases. We would be happy to share any of our thoughts, input and experience with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, or any of the potential programme providers. We will collaborate as best we can to make sure that there is wide and appropriate access as needed.

My colleague dealt with the potential expansion of UCD. That is an accredited programme by the veterinary council and carries all the benefits of that accreditation internationally.

In relation to some of the European programmes, as far as I am aware, there are minimum requirements around mathematics and some of the sciences and it is an interview process, but I do not believe there is a strict points requirement from all of the European programmes being delivered in English in veterinary medicine.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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On a timescale, there is progress being made, but will we see extra places for the academic year of 2023-2024?

Dr. Alan Wall:

Not being evasive, I simply do not know. As the HEA, we went out to the sector, came back with a response and made a recommendation around a blended approach to how we might do additional numbers. It is with Government after that. I cannot talk to timescale. To be honest, I am not familiar with it.

We are tick-tacking with our own department, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science around it. In our expressions of interest, we set out the 2025-2026 and 2026-2027 timescale. We had to give a definitive timescale, in fairness to the institutions, because nearly any institution could do any course if it thought it had five or ten years to plan it. We had to curtail it to see how it could manage.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I possibly should not have even asked. I will ask that question to the Government. It would be more appropriate.

Dr. Alan Wall:

It is probably better if UCD answered. "I do not know," is the short answer. I do not have a number for the dropout rate. It is low, though. The dropout rates in third level tend to be at lower-points courses. It is unlikely to be high, I would have thought.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I do not have those figures to hand. I could try to get them from the feedback that comes from the programme to us.

Dr. Alan Wall:

I can come back to the Deputy on that.

Dr. Alan Wall:

Will the Deputy say that again? Sorry, I missed that.

Dr. Alan Wall:

Yes, it is.

Dr. Alan Wall:

I suppose there are a couple of things I could say. First, within the European Union, students are free to do that. It is probably a good thing, and they do come back. We are seeing that. We see it in the veterinary register that students take the opportunity to be educated abroad and come back and work here. It is the European Union working in a good way.

It is easy, as the Deputy will be aware, to have a go at the points system and high points, but actually it is a very good system from a number of viewpoints. I accept, as the Deputy says, that there are students who go to other places which require fewer points but, to be clear, the HEA does not distinguish between the provision it has across 17 institutions. They are all of a high class. We do not make that distinction.

I will not help the Deputy by condemning the points system because the points system, taken in the broadest sense, is one of the ways in which we can do it. We use the health professions admissions test, HPAT, for medicine, for instance. That kind of thing can be used. UCD has introduced a portfolio. There are other ways of doing things.

The issue about the points is also about the number of places available, as the Deputy will be aware. I suppose what caused us to go out to the system was that we knew there were 82 places and two thirds of the register in the past five years are Irish students, mostly, who have gone to Poland or Bucharest, and we wanted to know whether there was an issue there for us, and that is what we did.

Dr. Alan Wall:

Forgive me, we would be happy to come back after the report is published and talk in detail about that. There are bits that I cannot talk about because it has gone to Government.

Dr. Alan Wall:

We looked for a range of numbers. We hope that we have some idea of what the demand is. If the Government is interested in extra numbers, we will take a number from the Government. We deliberately asked the institutions to cost, in terms of capital - and also infrastructure, time, lectures and syllabus creation - what the cost would be of that provision. That is built in to the recommendations we have made. Those costs travel. As for the time to do it, the universities were well aware of the time they would need to do it.

I will say that while this is new in veterinary for a number of them, universities are very good in terms of new course provision. The State has been lucky, in fact, that third level has managed to expand so rapidly to produce good graduates over time. This is something they do.

What we are good at, as the HEA, is being able to assess what their applications look like. What we cannot do is make a decision about whether it suits a veterinary council or not, and that is why we involve the veterinary council in that part of it.

In terms of the Deputy's question around infrastructure, numbers, etc., we have gone as wide as we can because we are conscious that there is no point in pretending that if they do not get the infrastructure they can get through a veterinary council process. That is where the answer lies. The number in the end will lie outside of us. We hope to talk to Government and to the two Departments more directly over the next couple of weeks but it will be a matter for them to decide to things.

Dr. Alan Wall:

According to the CAO, 600 or 700 students apply for the 82 places that are here.

Dr. Alan Wall:

Each year, yes. Every year, there are 600 or 700. Every year, a new group of 600 students come online looking for those 82 or 83 places.

I know this less well because those institutions are not within my purview. We think there are more than 200 students overall studying abroad, as the Deputy's daughter will be. Those are the numbers we are looking at. You will never satisfy all of those numbers nor, frankly, should we seek to as a system. We do not do it anywhere else. There will always be those who are disappointed. I think what the Deputy is asking is if there are broader things that matter in an assessment, besides points. The points will stay but as I said, medicine has looked at the health professions admission test, HPAT, before. There is a portfolio system, which UCD uses. We would advocate broader use of it. They are supplementary. They give an opportunity for students to demonstrate a broader capacity. The HPAT is good at that. It asks other questions beyond the points ones. There is a likely solution in there, but the market will never be entirely satisfied, nor should it be. The State could not sustain 600 or 700 vets per year. There is also an opportunity cost to the university in terms of other things the students could be doing.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

If one were to look at a snapshot of the register now the highest majority of vets are in their 30s and 40s. We also have significant numbers in their 50s, 60s and 70s. There are higher numbers on our registers now than we would have had five, ten or 15 years ago. Every single year, the number of vets joining our register increases. That is a good thing and probably speaks to increased demand from students coming from the UK or different programmes across Europe.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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In large animal practice, would the same age profile be consistent with what Ms Muldoon has said?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I cannot give the Cathaoirleach a definite answer on that. We look at our register without getting into the specifics of the area of practice. I would have to go digging, but I can do that.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I cannot disagree with that anecdotal assumption. I can say that we are doing a piece of work at the moment. We have more information than we have ever had about the people and practices on our registers, and the areas in which they practice. We are currently in the process of compiling a report to look at this, and would be happy to share that report once it is finalised. It will be the first time we have had a clear snapshot of the age profiles, and whether or not people are in full-time or part-time employment, and in companion animal, mixed, equine or large animal practice. We have collated lots of information, which now just has to be analysed and put into a report. We would be happy to share that with the committee, whenever it is finalised by the council. I hope it will not be too long.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Lombard will take the Chair, ask his questions and keep the meeting going. Some of us have to leave for a vote in the Dáil.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We will continue and I welcome the witnesses again.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today. The current service was mentioned. I am from Limerick, but I have used the service in the current veterinary hospital. I compliment the staff there. I was there on two occasions with two different dogs. It is a very good service for small animals and I know there is also a service for larger animals. I believe those services need to be expanded. I see where I am from that many people travel abroad to go to college. I know the witnesses cannot comment on specific applications, but I would like to ask what timeframe we are looking at before there is an announcement. I know it will be up to the Government after the recommendation has been made. Has a recommendation been made, from the submissions received, as to which location is best suited for the next veterinary college? Will there be a veterinary hospital as well as training?

I will go back to a point made by Senator Daly. In my neck of the woods, the University of Limerick looked at collaboration between veterinary practices and people who might have had experience. People could bring a portfolio to the table to demonstrate experience. They might not have qualifications but may have practised as a veterinary nurse. They may have grown up on a farm or been on another course that is appropriate or complementary to veterinary medicine. Could that be considered as part of the recommendation?

Dr. Alan Wall:

The Senator has invited me to make specific comments, which I cannot. It is not a secret that Limerick is one of the applicants. We have made a recommendation to Government. We have made a recommendation, not on the basis of an institution, but a different approach. The Senator has referenced them. There is a hospital model of veterinary training, but there is also a more distributed model. We have made a recommendation for a hybrid based on that. That may involve different relationships between different institutions. She asked a question about entry. I understand that she was saying there may be other entry routes.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Dr. Alan Wall:

That is not a recommendation we have made deliberately at this point. We have segmented the process, to an extent. First, we have asked if a course can be provided. What kind of course will it be? How will it be funded? What will it look like and what kind of model will be used? Once we run the rule over that and the veterinary council says it would be viable, it will move onto the next stage, which is the Government. We will interact at that point. On a professional level, the institutions will be talking to the Veterinary Council of Ireland. At our level, in the HEA, we will begin to talk about the issues raised by the Senator around entry, and what other things can be done. We have made it clear there is an issue around professional practice. There is a view about how people get in. That is fine. The CAO is probably the dominant mode of doing this. There could be places, as I think there are in UCD, where bachelor in agricultural science students can go across. There could be a use of broader things equivalent to HPAT. We are open to all of those. We are not dogmatic about that. It will depend on a conversation between us and the institutions once we get to that point, if that makes sense.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witness.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I will be long-winded, I would say. There will be a lot of waffle heard now. This is an important debate. There is a need for a second or an additional place when it comes to veterinary schools. Everyone is aware of the issue of veterinary places. As Senator Daly said, this is the first time that almost every organisation we have spoken to is in favour. The actual profile of the vets was mentioned, and the number of vets we have at the moment. It is interesting to think that 30-year-olds and 40-year-olds are predominant on the veterinary register. We have a large number of vets currently going abroad to be educated. Are there figures for how many of them return? There is talk with the industry of exceptional leakage with Irish students who go abroad, and who might not come back to Ireland to practice? Is there an indication of where or what the leakage is with regard to the numbers who go abroad?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

What we have access to is the vets who come onto our register. We can tell where they have qualified, be that UCD, Budapest or Warsaw. We know the CAO is an unforgiving system. We see the qualified vets returning from different places of qualification but we do not see those who qualify abroad and never join our register. We do not have access to that information. In terms of the leakage of those qualifying from, say, Budapest of Irish origin who do not return to practice in Ireland, we will never know. We only see the vets who return to join our register and practice in Ireland.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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On how the Department has looked to set up the courses, when it has spoken to institutions proposing to take on this body of work, have they discussed the courses proposed? Has a bias to large animals been discussed?

Dr. Alan Wall:

What happens in a professional qualification for a vet is that you are a vet. You can deal with a wide range of animals across the spectrum that you expect to encounter in an Irish practice. There is not such a thing as an undergraduate course on large or small animals. You have to qualify as a vet. In the conversations we have had, the universities who have applied understand that very well. They have seen the syllabuses used abroad. It is not an issue that comes up for us.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

That is the position. To join our register and come from a programme accredited by the Veterinary Council of Ireland, which is a stringent and robust process of accreditation, you have to be fit and qualified to practice in a broad range. You cannot simply come out qualified to do companion animal or large animal. You have to be a generalist. Then you can choose to specialise in an interest in a particular species or area but you must be competent across all species.

On Veterinary Council of Ireland accreditation processes, we accredit programmes every five years. There is a detailed visit for a number of days where a panel of experts, usually containing an international expert, will go on site, review the curriculum, look at the facilities and at everything including finances, clinical placements, the expertise of the teachers and lecturers involved, supports available to students and around placements and the training given to those supervising clinical placements. It is a detailed process. That accreditation visit takes place every five years. Alongside that, any programme will be required to provide information to us every year. There was a reference earlier to drop-out or fail rates. That kind of information would be returnable to the council as the competent authority for accreditation on an annual basis.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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When it come to the famous 82 places in the CAO at the moment, I ask Mr. Wall about international students and where they fit into the process.

Dr. Alan Wall:

It is a fair question. We have a large number of courses, not just veterinary, but medicine is another example and some will think of nursing and pharmacy. They are part of what enhances UCD’s reputation internationally so are important from that point of view. They provide an income aside from the State for UCD veterinary, which is important. This goes to my point about expansion. When we look at expansion, we look at doing it in a sustainable way which does not damage that international piece. It is important to Ireland Inc. that we have a reputation for providing high-grade courses to international students. Expansion requires us to be careful. UCD has indicated that it can expand. The question for us is what that does overall to Ireland Inc’s offering. As a higher education authority, that has to concern us. There is not an easy win here by just deciding we-----

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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When it comes to the figure for international students, does the institution set that figure?

Dr. Alan Wall:

It is the institution. It is part of its autonomy. It is an income stream for the institution, particularly in the medicine and veterinary space. It is part of what they build their offering around both for our students and internationally because they are supplemented in that way.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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What is the figure in the current year?

Dr. Alan Wall:

I do not know. I can get back to the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Dr. Vivienne Duggan:

There are roughly 48 graduate-entry places, mostly North American.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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In the process going forward with the applications Dr. Wall has received, without breaking any major confidentiality, is there an international element to some of these applications?

Dr. Alan Wall:

There has not been explicitly yet. We think there will be. Whatever decision is made by Government, when we go back to the institutions, I imagine they will start talking around that. Our view is the focus should be on Irish students in the first instance. That is where we are keen to see expansion. If an institution were to start providing and Government has decided, we are keen that be for Irish and European students, rather than an international offering.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Does the institution set the Irish offering or is it the HEA?

Dr. Alan Wall:

In that case it will be us. Historically, Irish universities have an international offering in medicine and veterinary. Where something is starting de novo, we are keen to establish this is an Irish and European Union offering in the first instance. That is what we hope because it addresses directly the issue the Senator raises around supply.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is a significant project for any new institution to take over. Funding models going forward are unique. International students play a part, and that is why I mentioned that. In this model, where do the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine; the Department of Education; and private money fit in in terms of putting a funding package together with the capability to deliver 100 students per year, which is probably what we are looking at? Where will that model go?

Dr. Alan Wall:

We have taken from the institutions the costs and have examined them to some extent. We are happy they are more or less reasonable. It has been part of our recommendation that that funding is State funding. Beyond that I cannot really talk. It is not really for me. The HEA, having identified this was something we could ask the sector to respond to, reflected what the costs were to Government. That is why it is a Government decision. We are tick-tacking with our Department on it but, beyond that, we assume it is a State offering.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the programmes the colleges have been putting together on the educational profile, what input will the Veterinary Council of Ireland have in making sure those programmes are appropriate to the needs of vets? I refer not so much to the health and safety as to the mental health of our veterinary professionals. We have an unfortunate suicide rate in the service. They are one-man-bands in the sense they are in a van going from A to B to C. They are meeting farmers who could be distressed on occasion, depending on how it goes. It could be a bad TB test or something else that can happen on a farm. What input will the council have to the education platform that is put in place to make sure those issues are addressed?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

That is a welcome question. As part of our accreditation standards, we require from any programme of veterinary nursing and veterinary medicine that health supports be available to students. Veterinary medicine is an intense programme. It is a tough course to get into and to come through, which is great for us as members of society in terms of the quality of graduates. That is the case for any programme accredited by the Veterinary Council of Ireland. A requirement to meet council accreditation standards is that health supports are in place, so that there are individuals, such as tutors or lecturers, available to support the students, that there are health and well-being supports and that there is an appreciation for the challenges that might face any member of the profession throughout the continuum of their career.

The Veterinary Council of Ireland has carried out in recent years the first study of the mental health of veterinary professionals. In 2021, we carried out a survey in partnership with the National Suicide Research Foundation, a UCC-based programme funded by the National Office for Suicide Prevention. That anonymous survey looked at the well-being and mental health or our veterinary professionals. The results of the survey, published in a report issued by the council in April last year, offer some reassurance. There are levels of anxiety and challenges within the veterinary professions, as there are in many others, particularly health professions.

Equally, the Leas-Chathaoirleach referred to high suicide rates. One of the findings in that report from which I would take comfort is that a member of the veterinary profession is no more or less likely than a member of any other profession or any other person on the street to experience suicidality. There is a detailed report that sets out all that.

The other thing it is helpful to make reference to is the supports the Veterinary Council has put in place. We have issued a SAFEVET SMART booklet. It is a very practical guide. Throughout the continuum of a professional life, an individual or his or her colleagues may encounter challenges, and it is a matter of making sure there is an acknowledgment around the available supports. We are also collaborating with the National Office for Suicide Prevention in delivering a pilot scheme, we hope on a county-by-county basis, known as safeTALK, which is effectively a half-day programme which we hope will be available free of charge to any veterinary team around the country, thanks to the National Office for Suicide Prevention and us, so I have to give that office a nod. I believe that will make a very positive contribution not only to the veterinary communities but also to the communities our veterinary professionals serve. We know vets play a unique role throughout society, often in remote and rural parts of the country. The Leas-Chathaoirleach referred to individual farmers and the different challenges they face. Often the vet is a trusted professional who has regular contact with them.

Dr. Alan Wall:

To help the committee, it might be useful if my colleague Mr. Conlon, who is head of policy in the HEA, speaks to the issue of mental health generally for students because the HEA does a lot of work in that regard.

Mr. Tim Conlon:

It was interesting to listen to my colleague Ms Muldoon talk about the work with the National Office for Suicide Prevention because it is something we do very much in the higher education system more generally. We have a national strategy for student well-being and mental health. The issues of student resilience and student well-being have been a feature post pandemic, and we are very much working with the National Office for Suicide Prevention in supporting students into, through and out of higher education, so there is a good bit of cross-working there. There was reference to the National Suicide Research Foundation in UCC. We work very closely with it as well to try to draw together the various pieces of research nationally on this, which is a very difficult issue. It is just worth noting that there is a lot of work ongoing on supporting students into and through higher education and out into their careers.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I welcome our guests. This is a very important discussion by any look at the numbers of graduates and the numbers of graduate vets registering. I believe 82 or 83 are coming out of vet school, but something like 320 young vets register in the country every year. The balance, the 240 or so, are training overseas. I understand half of them are Irish people who have gone overseas and the other half are people who are not from Ireland who are coming here to work. There is therefore clearly a very significant need for this new school, and it makes sense to have it in Limerick. I think the witnesses will not necessarily-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That is not a parochial comment at all. Is the lad beside you going to support you?

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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The Chair might agree with me and Deputy Crowe might agree with me, and while I did not hear Senator Maria Byrne, I suspect she might agree also. There is a strong representation from the mid-west on the committee.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I do not disagree with you either.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I am quite in agreement with the sentiments of earlier speakers about the route to veterinary medicine, and certainly the thinking would apply to other courses. Dr. Wall is correct that the points system has served this country very well. It is brutally fair, I suppose, but we would understand, and I think the witnesses would understand, that the entry requirements for certain courses can be broadened out.

In Limerick we have a very good example with the general entry medical school, which was opened probably 16 or 17 years ago. The anecdotal feedback we receive from students who have gone through it - graduates and patients who have been treated by graduates of the school - is that it works really well because they take in young people primarily, but they are not so young. They are not fresh out of school. Many of them have gone through a primary degree in some other area and bring that third-level experience to bear when they make the decision in that case to go into medicine. It gives us a diversity of graduate in that sector, and I think that would apply to veterinary medicine as well, not that I claim at all to be an expert in that area. I know a little more about engineering. When I was in the University of Limerick, UL, a long time ago, there used to be a transfer. A cohort would come in from the institutes of technology, ITs, after the end of first year or the end of second year. Those people would not have got the points to do engineering first off coming out of school, and straight away they went to the very top of the class. They were very good engineers. The system works quite well when we take a broad view of entry to some of these courses, and that thinking should apply when it comes to the entry requirements for any new veterinary school that is agreed.

I wish to state on the record my support, unsurprisingly, for University of Limerick for being as objective as it can be. It makes sense that the mid-west would have a veterinary school. The east has one in UCD. It is important the location should be near the demand. I think the demand is in the farming country of Munster, and Limerick is ideally suited there. I do not think the witnesses can tell me anything about Limerick. It does not come to them-----

Dr. Alan Wall:

The Deputy is right. I take on board what he says. Yes, the University of Limerick graduate entry medicine programme is very successful and is done very well. The Deputy is right that it takes in a broad range of students from all kinds of backgrounds, as those medical courses do. It is a very useful thing. If the Deputy will forgive me for this, I will talk in generalities a bit because I must. One thing to note is that when we went out to the system looking for a response in the case of veterinary medicine, we were not prescriptive at all and nobody came back with a graduate offer, so we are working very much with what we get.

The issue of entry is a complex one, as the committee will know, and some areas can lend themselves more easily to this than others, but the system, just looking at third-level education, is open to and uses numerous routes into degrees, as the committee will be aware. We are not particularly blind to that. The specifics around agriculture as a way in will be in the hands of the university. There is another provider. There will be a dialogue about how we manage this. I am loath to give any sense to the committee that somehow we will dismantle the points system, because that is a bigger issue. As I said, one would have to be objectively a fan of what it has done, although it is unfair on the margins to some students who can do well and actually later find other routes in. I accept all that, but I do not think that somehow we will use veterinary medicine as a way of solving that bigger issue.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I would not expect that at all and-----

Dr. Alan Wall:

I accept what the Deputy says about being as broad-minded as we can. It is the economics of the system. It is supply and demand that puts the points up rather than, as I said earlier, the demands or the needs of the course, and we are aware of that. I appreciate that.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I would not at all denigrate the points system. It has served the country well, notwithstanding the challenges with it. The witnesses might speak about the location.

Does that come into the HEA's thinking as well?

Dr. Alan Wall:

Yes. I will speak in generalities, if the Deputy does not mind. One of the things we are concerned about, as the Higher Education Authority, is how we plan a system and the regionality of it. We are concerned about regional balance and it is something we have mentioned in our response back to Government. Without getting into specifics, a regional spread is something that we think is important, not least of which is because although the evidence is anecdotal, it seems to stack up that people tend to stay where they are educated. That is an issue around some of the provision of education not just in veterinary medicine but in pharmacy, nursing and all the other things we looked at the same time. Without getting into specifics, we are mindful that as the HEA we have regional responsibility. As the Deputy knows, we have created very powerful universities by amalgamating institutes of technology. They are more than the sum of their parts and are providing education on a regional basis. They have a mission about regional interaction. We are mindful of that, let us say, in terms of the overall provisions.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Going back to the entry piece, Dr. Wall said the HEA was not prescriptive at the outset about how any institution should propose entry. Will it take a view after it has heard from those applicants?

Dr. Alan Wall:

We will. I imagine that a range of things are going to come up. I responded to it earlier and I understand why people are saying it but I get nervous when I read things about how the sons and daughters of farmers should have particular dispensation. In a small system like ours, if you begin to allocate scarce places on the basis of what parents did, it is a world of pain. We have worked very hard, with a number of governments over a number of years, to broaden that and to get away from that kind of perpetuation in order that people who get the points get in, irrespective of who they are. I accept that there is a downside to that as well, that the Deputy is thinking about. One of the things that worries me is an interview system, to be honest, because again we are a small country. One of the things the CAO did was to get away from that. I am taking that UCD uses a portfolio which broadens that out, and I am aware that the health professions admission test, HPAT, has done that for medicine and has changed the profile of people getting on the course. There are other ways of dealing with that, but it is a conversation that I imagine we will have at a later stage. The key point to get across to the committee is that this is first step, as it were. Just getting to find out who is willing to do it and what it might cost them is the first step. All those things follow from that and will be dealt with.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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It is very much a decision of the Minister or Government but is it expected imminently?

Dr. Alan Wall:

I am not being particularly evasive but I do not know. I suppose it is a bit like Harland & Wolff; the ship has left us. That is where we are. Obviously, we engage with our parent Department, but it is a matter for it at that point.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Has the HEA given a shortlist to the Department?

Dr. Alan Wall:

We have made a recommendation around a way in which additional veterinary education provision and others could be delivered, looking at things like regionality, as the Deputy mentioned, the possibility of expansion, and thinking about what kind of veterinary medicine practice education we would be giving. Some of them are doing hospitals and some are in the dispersal model. All of that is in there.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Dr. Wall.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today. I have a number of questions, and I understand that we cannot be parochial. I can be parochial, but the witnesses have to be careful in their replies. Looking at the UCD course, how does it compare with other courses that are on offer across Europe, given that quite a number of Irish students go abroad to study veterinary medicine?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

In terms of standards of accreditation, the Veterinary Council of Ireland accredits UCD on the basis that it is in Ireland. We rely on and use European standards of accreditation. There is a group called the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education, EAEVE, and there is a minimum standard or threshold of education that any programme delivering veterinary medicine education in Europe has to comply with. That minimum standard is there for all programmes across Europe that allow any graduate to join, for example, the Veterinary Council of Ireland register to practise veterinary medicine here in Ireland under the European directive on the mutual recognition of professional qualifications. UCD has the benefit of the additional status that Veterinary Council accreditation affords. Once a programme of veterinary medicine, whether that is in UCD or another institution, holds Veterinary Council accreditation, that enables a graduate of that programme to join, for example, the register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to practise in the UK or Scotland, or to join a register in Australia or New Zealand. There is additional status that is afforded to a graduate of any programme of veterinary medicine, such as UCD, that is accredited by the Veterinary Council. I hope that answers the Deputy's question on European standards.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How many veterinary graduates do we need at the moment, to keep up with demand, to look after small animals and large animals?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I cannot give the Deputy an exact figure. We know there is demand all across the sector from companion to large animal, and there is some migration within our registers. We have never had more vets on our registers, yet we hear anecdotally that there are increasing challenges around recruitment and retention for rural large animal practice. While I cannot give the Deputy a set number, suffice it to say we know that huge numbers of Irish leaving certificate students travel across the water to undertake veterinary medicine studies. Traditionally, there has always been an association with some of the programmes in Scotland. For example, we always have a number of graduates from the University of Edinburgh coming onto our register every year. We know there is huge demand for Irish young people coming through the CAO system going abroad. While I cannot give the Deputy a set figure, suffice to say that there is a welcome opportunity for additional capacity in veterinary medicine training. It strikes me that there is strong demand in the industry and the sector. Certainly, there is employment for an increased number of vets than there are currently on our register.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Speaking with another hat on as Chair of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, we have had a number of meetings over the last month or so on science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, subjects, and veterinary medicine was mentioned more broadly in some of the witnesses' statements. When the HEA was considering its proposal and making its recommendations to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and his Department, was the idea of giving agriculture students an opportunity to go further and to study veterinary medicine considered?

Dr. Alan Wall:

It was not, because what we were concerned with was, in the first instance, provision. We will look at is proposals from additional colleges, if they exist, about how they want to do their intake. I think that will be one of the things we will be asking them to think about. We are not at that point yet, but we will be looking at innovative ways of doing that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I know that the witnesses have to be careful in their replies. I am aware that South East Technological University, SETU, and the University of Limerick have submitted applications. I am a former student of Kildalton Agricultural College. It is probably one of the few agricultural colleges that is left across the country. What is the HEA's view on the importance of having such colleges close to third level institutions, where veterinary medicine could be offered as part of the college courses?

Dr. Alan Wall:

We have assessed the applications in the broadest sense, and we would be aware of the broader hinterland that universities brought to this. To talk in generalities, we were very aware of Kildalton and forestry, agriculture and horticulture as part of the offering there, and the applied science that SETU has in that context, particularly in the agrarian and agricultural field.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure if I picked Dr. Wall up correctly when he was responding to other Senators and Deputies. Did the HEA make just one proposal to the Minister advising him that this is where we should be, or did it make a suite of proposals, for example choosing one college, or another where there might be a number of components to veterinary medicine? What way was it done?

Dr. Alan Wall:

It was more the second one. What we did not do was isolate one institution that answered all the questions. Depending on the need that was being met, and how we wanted to approach the issue of different types of veterinary education, the demand for them, the numbers and the regionality, we effectively came up with a number of scenarios that we left open to Government. That is what we did. For us, this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to say something about the provision of veterinary medicine education.

We have to be as broad as we can to enable Government to make a better decision, rather than tying its hands by picking an institution and then finding later that there could have been a different type of provision done. That is what we have chosen to do.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Senator Paul Daly spoke about students with practical experience, as did Deputy Leddin. The points system is one thing but we should take into account the large number of people who studied agricultural science or went to agricultural college and have gained huge practical experience because they would make fantastic vets. They may not have the points to do so, however. That may be a debate for another day. Is Dr. Wall aware of other courses available outside Ireland where practical experience is taken into account?

Dr. Alan Wall:

I am not, to be honest. What other countries seem to do is focus on leaving certificate equivalent maths, chemistry and biology, although there are more graduate entry courses abroad. I will ask my deputy, Mr. Tim Conlon, to address that.

Mr. Tim Conlon:

I will comment on academic entry because it has come up a few times. We need to be cautious on this because academic matters are a matter for the higher education institutions which have expertise in academic matters. It is not for the State to define with regard to the economy of an institution what constitutes a good student for their programmes. However, as the Deputy is aware from his work, we have clear national strategies on diversification of entry to higher education. For example, there is the national strategy for equity of access, which talks not only about particular target groups but also diversity of entry routes and diversity of means of assessing students' access to and through programmes. That type of thinking is a feature of a number of the proposals which came into us. The institutions are certainly thinking about how they diversify provision and they think more broadly about the types of students they take into and get successfully through programmes. As Dr. Wall said, there is a regional balance to that as well with regard to the kinds of programmes. Could they retain students within regions and, more broadly, nationally? Would that encourage them to stay within their regions? Could there be a diverse set of methods of learning and learning outcomes?

There is a very broad consideration of those proposals. Part of the next step of the process, once we see what Government decides, will probably be to have a further conversation with institutions. They are definitely open to and very aware of that need for a diversity of offer and provision, while at the same time meeting the requirements of our colleagues in the Veterinary Council of Ireland. One has to maintain standards at the same time as opening up provision. Institutions are very wise to that and they are very keen that it becomes a feature of any additional offer or an expansion of an offer that might come through this process.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I would like to add to that for the sake of information. Massey University in New Zealand is the only university offering a veterinary medicine programme in New Zealand. It is comparable to Ireland in that there are, give or take, 5,000 or 6,000 vets in New Zealand. While there is still an academic requirement, one of the initiatives which Massey University is moving towards is allowing enhanced accessibility through the extramural studies, clinical placement experience, empathy and communication skills testing, and profiling. There are other elements being trialled in other countries. Often, the objective of achieving diversity of access involves positive discrimination towards, for example, particular parts of the population, such as the Maori population, which has driven the initiative in Massey University. However, there are a number of initiatives in other countries on which we at the Veterinary Council of Ireland would be happy to liaise with our counterparts around the world, and share information with the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and this committee, as required.

I should also point out that the Veterinary Council of Ireland is wholly objective with regard to where any location might be. Our concern is around standards, the quality of the programme offering and the quality of the graduates to make sure society has the benefit of the superbly high standards we have in veterinary practice. Regardless of location, the Veterinary Council of Ireland's focus will be on standards, and standards alone.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have no doubt that if SETU is successful, there will be very high quality standards in the courses being run and among the students. While regional balance has to come into this, the south east has a very strong farming background in that it is home to the Teagasc headquarters and Kildalton Agricultural and Horticultural College. SETU would make a fantastic facility to join everything up.

How many students does UCD take in annually? Once the decision is made, how many student places is it projected will be available in September 2024 in UCD and whatever other facility or college is offering places?

Dr. Alan Wall:

I genuinely do not have a quantum to share with the Deputy. We have tried to capture and provide some flexibility for Government around the number. The figure will probably come from the Government rather than us. As the Deputy knows, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine probably has a view on this. We do not have a number. We worked through proposals which are flexible enough to allow for a flexing up in number if necessary. Certainly, the quantum of vets the State wishes to educate will impact on the choices to be made around institutions.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

Regarding the numbers in UCD, usually between 135 and 140 students are accepted every year, of which 82 places are allocated through the CAO. A handful of places go to people transferring either from science or agricultural science courses into year 2, and then a number of places are awarded to graduates coming from North America and Canada. There are 82 places through the CAO in UCD but, on average, there are about 135 to 140 students in the year.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have one further question for Ms Muldoon. As regards small animals versus large animals, everyone starts with the same. Do vets then venture out and concentrate on certain animals or what is the story there?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

Every vet who qualifies from UCD will have a competency across large and small animals, equine, food safety, and all of the various components that give rise to a degree in veterinary medicine. They are competent across all species. People might then opt to do postgraduate training or simply to go into practice in a particular area and gain experience in it.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There are three more speakers. I must limit their speaking time to five minutes each because we are over time.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is no problem. I am not a member of this committee but I am interested in its work. We farmed at home in Clare. We do not do this often but sometimes it is nice to namecheck someone on the Dáil record. I refer to our local vets in the mid-west, including Kevin McNamara who is fantastic, compassionate, helpful and everything else. I think highly of vets. We hear repeatedly from farmers at constituency level that there is a lack of vets, particularly at the large animal and pet level. This issue needs to be addressed. I am from County Clare and I think the situation is different between counties. That has definitely come to the fore in this discussion.

Watching Sky News yesterday, I saw the British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak flip everything on its head when he said that, because of a lack of GPs in Britain, he had decided to sign into law a measure whereby pharmacists can now prescribe certain types of medicine. While there has been a backlash to that measure, it is innovative, if nothing else. We need to be innovative about the shortage of veterinary surgeons.

Like Deputy Kehoe, I am a graduate of Salesian Agricultural College, Pallaskenry. I went to University of Limerick, UL, and I was in Pallaskenry for a while. I did not choose to be a vet but I saw a lot of people coming through the college with very good skill sets in subcutaneous and intramuscular injecting, disbudding, castration and dehorning. They did not have all of the skill sets required for large animals but some of them. There needs to be some pathway for them, provided they obtain a green certificate and a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 8 qualification, to enter and be fast-tracked through this course somehow. I do not agree with the argument made on the radio in the past 48 hours that a son or daughter of a vet should be fast-tracked. Skills are not hereditary. People have to acquire them in a centre of education. Where someone has a QQI level 7 or 8 qualification, there should be fast-track pathway available. As with what Rishi Sunak did yesterday, that would provide a quick gain in addressing the shortage.

Wherever it is decided this course will be located, we need to know what the lead-in period will be. Our current crop of sixth-year students have already engaged with the CAO. Obviously, this course will not be available in September 2023 but is there an aspiration to offer it in 2024 or 2025?

That needs to be spelled out. There are youngsters who, while they might not be watching Oireachtas TV tonight, will probably read something in the newspaper tomorrow and they would like to know what is happening. The lead-in period is important.

While I know our guests cannot comment on this, I join others in saying that the University of Limerick would be a fantastic setting for this. It is in the west. We in the Houses are constantly trying to develop an economic counterbalance to the greater Dublin area. The university is perfectly positioned midway along the west coast. It is near the agricultural college in Pallaskenry. It is surrounded by the Golden Vale of good land in Limerick and not so good land in Clare. A lot can be learned by locating in UL. There is a needs to differentiate between large animal and small animal veterinary practice because there is a shortage in that regard. Most vets, when they graduate, and you cannot blame them, say it is a lot easier to neuter dogs and cats and work with nice animals in a practice rather than work on farms that may have poor handling facilities. That is manifesting itself in the numbers.

Those are all my questions. If the witnesses could respond to some of them, I would be very grateful.

Dr. Alan Wall:

On the timescale, again we went out to the system on the basis that a 2025 or 2026 starting date was the one we were asking the universities to consider. To be honest, we had to give them some notion of the timescale. We have submitted our report to Government and it is a matter for it. I cannot really help the Deputy on the timescale.

I take the Deputy's point about other skills and entry points. As Mr. Conlon said, we will be happy to entertain that with the university, whichever is chosen. We are certainly not dogmatic about that at all.

We are talking about one piece here about veterinary courses, but actually, as the Deputy will know, there are a number of routes into a number of the professions that we do quite successfully, so it is not unusual for the universities.

There was a third question, which I have forgotten.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I asked about UL, but Dr. Wall has answered all my questions. What the witnesses pass on to the Minister is very important. Last year, a memo about elective hospitals went to the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly - it was a whole different committee and a whole different realm - and the memo pretty much spelled out that it should be Dublin, Cork and Galway. Lo and behold, the Minister and the Government accepted the memo as presented; that was it. I think we heard that the witnesses' memo gives an option, and it is very important that that would come to the fore.

I am enthused to hear the witnesses are looking at both regional balance and the pathway into this. There must be more innovative ways than people flying to Wroclaw and Warsaw in Poland to train. The HEA should be talking to the agricultural colleges, if it is not doing so already, and asking them to identify a link pathway from their QQI levels 7 or 8 in order to fast-track. I am a former primary school teacher and people who had Irish language or arts qualifications were able to leapfrog us into the second semester. It happens in many courses and it could happen in veterinary courses.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. I apologise for being late but I was brought in at the last minute to replace my colleague Deputy Kerrane. I presume every member present has made their pitch. I hope the Cathaoirleach made his pitch for County Tipperary as it is easily accessed by train and the whole lot and is right in the middle of the Golden Vale, the best land you can get.

It is accepted there are 135 places. Have we any indication of the numbers who are not successful? How many source training somewhere else? Do they continue on and source training someplace else outside of the country? How can we stop people who are interested in these courses having to go elsewhere because of the lack of them in this country? It takes a long time, if they train someplace else, to get them back. How can we change that around so that we can hold them here when they do the training?

Dr. Alan Wall:

As I understand the Deputy, the issue is around the number of places we have here. The exercise we did on the expressions of interest was to ask the higher education sector what it could provide, and that is what we have used to structure our report to the Government. There are 82 places through the CAO. Roughly 600 to 700 students apply for them every year, so there will always be students who will go away. It is part of the European experience for students to be educated in Europe. It is not necessarily a bad thing and many of them are coming back, but that is notwithstanding the fact that we would not have undertaken this exercise unless we thought there was an issue to be solved around the number of places we have.

From a system point of view, it is worth saying again that the higher education system has been very good at providing and dealing with the massification of students. This is an exercise where we asked the sector to look at it again and it has come back. What we have given to the Government is a report that opts for a number of scenarios around solutions. It is not so much options between institutions but a scenario about how things might be done, such as regional balance or different ways of veterinary education. That is what we are trying to do, but being aware that we are never going to fully solve the problem and suit every student who wants to be a vet.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Have we any indication or does the study show that most of the number who are not successful will try to source training someplace else or change their mind and go away from veterinary altogether?

Dr. Alan Wall:

That does happen. We are aware that if veterinary studies was a person's first choice, then he or she takes his or her second choice. We see the same in medicine. People do biomedical courses and things like that when they do not get their first choice. That is common enough for students across the CAO. I cannot remember the statistics but a high percentage of people get their first three choices in the CAO, so at least they get the choices they want. The ones who are dedicated to doing a veterinary course are probably the ones going to Poland and elsewhere.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Could an argument be made for veterinary medicine courses to be coupled with some of the locations where veterinary nursing courses are provided?

Dr. Alan Wall:

Yes. There will be applications like that who have made that argument, yes.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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What about the availability of qualified lecturers and tutors? What availability do we have in that regard?

Dr. Alan Wall:

Again, one of the things for us to concern ourselves with is the danger that we in some way strip that kind of talent from the incumbent in UCD. As we said earlier, UCD is a world-class offering. It is a very highly recommended and highly regarded course. It is too initial at this point but one of the things we will wonder about is how universities, were they to be successful in the provision of veterinary science, would staff that and how broadly they would look. It is a live issue. The population of university lecturers is quite mobile. We have a lot of internationalisation in the system, so it is not unknown and would be part of normality to source these people from other places.

Mr. Tim Conlon:

As part of the process we have had conversations with institutions about the viability of what they are offering to us and have raised those kinds of questions with an eye to maintaining that balance in the national system. We do not want any of the five discipline areas we have looked at to cannibalise provision somewhere else or move it somewhere else. The HEA has to be very conscious that we have a higher education and research system that is very finely balanced. It is a very important question and one we have asked of institutions, that is, given the timelines and provisions they have offered us, whether they can realistically spin it up, as it were, how they will manage risk, how they will find the staff they need, and how they will develop the curriculum. We have had those conversations. As Dr. Wall has said, there are further steps to go through. In terms of the offer we have made to Government, we have checked that very carefully in terms of its viability because it is a big promise for institutions to make but we have held their feet to the fire to some extent on that.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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What steps need to be taken to speed it up and turn people around, for want of a better word, so that they are qualified?

Mr. Tim Conlon:

That is a good question and a difficult one to answer. We would need a signal as to what the appetite or requirement is. We cannot speed a process such as the Veterinary Council of Ireland would have to go in terms of the appropriate validation of a programme, because that is not guaranteed. We have to be very careful that the offer to students is appropriate and proper and that the validation is there. There is a piece of work Ms Muldoon and her colleagues have to do that is going to be part of the process and that will take time.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

Veterinary medicine and veterinary nursing are two separate and distinct professions and are subject to two separate and distinct standards of accreditation. It is important we do not underestimate the level of commitment and responsibility involved in delivering a programme of veterinary medicine. It is very expensive, intensive and there is a huge requirement for expertise. It is one of the more intensive programmes delivered by any institution in terms of disciplines and professions, and it is important we do not underestimate the undertaking for any institution to deliver that programme.

The Veterinary Council of Ireland will work closely with any applicant programme. However, our eye is firmly on the standards and making sure that any graduate of a veterinary medicine programme accredited by the council, which, effectively, is a ticket to travel internationally, reaches a certain standard. That is important for us in Ireland as food consumers and as animal owners and holders for our industries. We cannot underestimate the importance of the quality of the programme. The Veterinary Council of Ireland’s role is to make sure that the quality is as strong and high as the programmes currently on offer.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in. After many partisan contributions, I feel I should nearly make a pitch for a veterinary college in Longford. I do not think we have a submission in, however, so I will pass on that.

I note with interest the breakdown from the Veterinary Council of Ireland that 52% of the vets on the register are male and 48% are female. Did that happen over a short period or has it been an evolving story? It is an impressive statistic, that we are almost at 50-50, which is what many sectors aspire to.

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

It is. It would have been a different story 20 years ago. We are almost at parity, and there is increasing growth. The register was dominated by males 20 years ago. There is greater parity now, and we see an increasing number of females joining our register every year.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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As an authority, did the Veterinary Council of Ireland do anything to encourage that or was it a natural evolution?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

That is a natural evolution.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Good stuff. To pick up on a point on the HEA, my wife told me this morning that I am bad with figures, so perhaps I misinterpreted this, so correct me if I am wrong. Over the past five years, 33%, or 74 people, of those on the register for more than five years qualified at UCD. We had 82 CAO places at UCD each year over the five years, so that is in excess of 400. Where are those vets? They are obviously going abroad. Is there a problem? Has research been done to see why we are not able to keep those vets here?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

I will speak in general terms. UCD may be a victim of its own success. It is internationally renowned and holds American veterinary medicine accreditation status, which is part of the appeal in North American and Canadian students coming here. Usually, graduates from UCD might opt to take internships in, for example, equine practice in America. Dr. Duggan is better placed to speak about that, having done it herself. We often see Irish graduates coming through UCD who might choose to practice abroad for a couple years, no more or less than those in medicine, dentistry and other professions. Usually, we will see them returning to our register. Just because, on qualification, somebody qualifying from UCD does not join the Veterinary Council of Ireland register immediately does not mean that they do not come onto our register. There is a trend across many professions to travel abroad, get some experience in a particular area of interest for two, three or four years and then come home.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Muldoon have figures to validate that and show when people are coming back onto the register?

Ms Niamh Muldoon:

No, I do not have them this evening.

Dr. Vivienne Duggan:

It has always been the case, though. It is not something new. Vets always went abroad for a few years, quite often to the UK, and then came back.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of the HEA, we are aware that several submissions are in. I am pleased that Mr. Conlon is challenging the robustness and veracity of some of those, particularly in terms of the skill set and academic staff in place. A message that probably needs to go out is that we do not dismantle something to rebuild something. That is what we need to be doing. We hear from vets in the community that this is badly needed but it needs to be some place that is accessible and has a track record. Ms Muldoon alluded to the fact that UCD is world-renowned and has international standards, so I make my pitch for Dublin.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I predicted at the start that we were on the same page. However, it was remiss of me to ignore the fact that all politics is local. It would be equally remiss of me if I did not pin my colours to mast regarding the Technical University of the Shannon: Midlands Midwest in Athlone.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. We will now suspend to allow the second set of witnesses to come in.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. As they are aware, there is a vote in the Dáil which Deputies must attend. We will commence the meeting and the witnesses can read their statements into the record. I hope the Deputies will be back by then.

Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and persons in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones. Members are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting their mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to airplane, safe or flight mode depending on their device. It is not enough to just put their phones on silent mode as this will maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I bring to the attention of those present that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action arising out of anything said at a committee meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, within reason, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as do witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publications by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance regarding participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

We are now commencing session 2. We have the following representatives with us: Mr. Keith Moynes, assistant secretary from the higher education policy division of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and; Mr. Michael Sheahan, director of veterinary operations and Dr. Avril Hobson, senior superintending veterinary inspector from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I invite the witnesses to read their submissions into the record while we wait for our colleagues to return.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

I thank the committee for the invitation to come here today to discuss the very important topic of veterinary medicine provision in Ireland. I am assistant secretary with responsibility for higher education in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. This Department is responsible for the policy, funding and governance framework for the tertiary education, research and innovation system, which includes higher education and further education providers. Among our core aims is to support the sector in responding to regional and national demand for skills and innovation to support Ireland's economy and society, including critically in the context of this committee's area of interest, agriculture and the agrifood industry.

We work very closely with national agencies, including the Higher Education Authority. I know the committee has heard earlier from Dr. Wall, Mr. Conlon, and Dr. Brownlee from the HEA. Higher education institutions routinely engage with employers in the enterprise sector to ensure that graduate output aligns with the needs of enterprises, public services and the wider economy, and much of this would quite rightly be done at an institutional level. In certain cases, however, there is a need to take a national level perspective, including where Departments are leading workforce development initiatives to support public services or specific areas of the economy or where the scale of investment or engagement required cannot be met within the business-as-usual funding envelope. In these cases our Department seeks to work with other Departments to support them in articulating their workforce requirements, or requirements for their sector, so that they can determine the scale of the required graduate pipeline. In the case of veterinary medicine, the relevant partner is the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is important to say that while graduate output is an important factor in the workforce, it is not the only one. There are issues such as the attractiveness of the profession and retention, which play critical roles. My colleague from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Sheahan, will touch on this.

Working closely with the Higher Education Authority, we seek to engage with the higher education system to determine the potential for the system to deliver in areas of skills demand, the nature of such provision and what enablers are required, including investment, policy levers and practical supports. The proposals which arise from such a process must be assessed having regard to resource availability both in terms of recurrent and capital expenditure and relative prioritisation of competing demands, all in the context of the public spending code.

Turning specifically to veterinary provision, since the late 1970s, University College Dublin, UCD, has been the only higher education institution to provide a veterinary medicine programme in the State, with both undergraduate and graduate entry programmes. UCD also provides a level 8 full-time undergraduate veterinary nursing course, as well as full-time and part-time postgraduate programmes, which includes PhDs and research masters, a doctorate in veterinary medical specialisation and postgraduate certificates in areas such as dairy herd health, small animal medicine and equine sports medicine.

Veterinary nursing programmes are also available in the Atlantic Technological University, the Technological University of the Shannon, and Dundalk Institute of Technology. While no official statistics are available on how many Irish students study outside the State in different disciplines, the Department is certainly aware that a number of Irish students travel outside the State every year to study veterinary medicine in institutions in the UK and in central and eastern Europe. There are many reasons students seek to study in institutions outside the State, and international mobility can be a positive experience for learners. However, the Department's understanding is that there is a relatively higher proportion of veterinary students studying internationally relative to other disciplines. The Minister, Deputy Harris, is on record as saying that he wants to see more Irish students being able to study veterinary medicine in Ireland. While it would never be the case that there would be one-to-one matching of supply and demand, there are very sound reasons why in the longer term Ireland would wish to have greater resilience in terms of domestic skill supply across a range of skills needs.

As with any academic discipline which is regulated, involves significant practical and placement work, and requires clinical facilities, there are real, material limits on the number of places that can be delivered without very significant additional investment. I set out in the opening statement provided to the committee the process which was followed by the Higher Education Authority in respect of the expressions of interest process. I might take that as read given that the HEA itself has been into the committee earlier and I will turn to the next steps.

We received the report in the Department a number of weeks ago from the Higher Education Authority. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has engaged in the first instance with his Cabinet colleagues, the Minister for Health, given that this relates not just to veterinary medicine provision but also to wider healthcare for humans, and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to the HEA's recommendations.

The expansion opportunities and scenarios identified by the HEA, if implemented, would have the potential to lead to a significant change in the number of domestic graduates which Ireland could produce in the relevant disciplines over the next decade. However it is important to recognise that these opportunities come with a very significant associated cost both in terms of capital, and ongoing staffing and resource implications. These will require careful consideration by the Departments concerned, and in due course, by the Government in the context of future Estimates and engagements on capital allocations.

It is important to say that the assessment and deliberative process on these matters is ongoing, and the Minister, Deputy Harris, intends updating the Government in the coming period in order to advise his colleagues of the opportunities identified through the capacity building process; to outline the costs that could arise with any expansion proceeded with and; to update on his engagements with his ministerial colleagues in Health and Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Given where we are in the process, and in advance of any discussions by the Government, I hope the committee will understand that it is not possible for me to elaborate on any potential outcomes of the process. Given that we are still in a deliberative process and feedback has not yet been provided to institutions, neither can I give specific indications on what the HEA recommended, beyond what the HEA indicated to the committee earlier in terms of the scenarios it provided to the Department.

More generally, both the Minister and the Department will continue to engage across the Government to identify priorities for the coming years and will continue to work with the HEA and the higher education sector to ensure alignment of graduate output with existing and emerging skills needs. I am happy to assist the committee in its considerations.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

Like my colleague, I thank the committee for the invitation to attend here this evening to discuss the topic of the new school of veterinary medicine in Ireland. While the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine is not the lead Department in relation to matters to do with third level education, we do have a significant interest in having sufficient availability of veterinary practitioners to provide services in Ireland, so we have significant skin in the game when it comes to veterinary graduates.

The role of vets has probably been discussed in the earlier session.

Vets play a crucial role in society through their work in animal health, animal welfare and food safety. In Ireland the work done by vets underpins much of the valuable and important agrifood sector, a sector that this committee will be aware had exports of over €15 billion in 2021 and which employs around 170,000 people. Vets work to ensure that the food we consume domestically and that we export to 180 countries is safe and is produced to the highest standards. Vets are the guardians of animal welfare, which is increasingly important in society and they play an important role in relation to antimicrobial resistance. Increasingly, vets are working in a cross-disciplinary way with medical and other colleagues with a "one health” approach that recognises that the health of humans, animals, plants and the wider environment are closely linked and interdependent. The Covid-19 pandemic and antimicrobial resistance are two very topical examples of where a “one health” model is increasingly recognised as being the optimal way to approach such global problems.

Outside of the agrifood sector, vets play a very significant role in relation to companion animals. Pet ownership has grown very significantly in Ireland in recent years, as in many other countries. We have a springer spaniel in our family and it would be fair to say that our pet is very far up the pecking order in our house. The role of vets in safeguarding and enhancing the health and well-being of our pets is something that we all value.

There is little argument about the value of vets in society for health, economic and many other societal reasons. The demand for vets across society has been increasing, especially in the companion animal area over the past four or five years. The number of veterinary practitioners on the veterinary register is at an all-time high and is currently of the order of 3,300. In recent years, a significant number of Irish students have travelled abroad to veterinary schools in different parts of Europe, particularly Poland and Hungary, where English-language veterinary courses are available. While students may wish to travel abroad to study for many reasons, it seems reasonable to explore whether extra places should be available in Ireland in critical sectors such as veterinary, in order that these students would have the option of studying in Ireland rather than having to go abroad. Many of these veterinary students are returning to Ireland after graduating and are working as vets in Ireland. I am sure the committee got detailed statistics on this from our Veterinary Council colleagues. Despite the increasing number of vets on the veterinary register in Ireland, concerns have been expressed about the availability of veterinary practitioners to provide services to the large animal farming sector, in particular, in some parts of the country. This is an issue not just in Ireland but in many countries throughout the EU and the world and is one that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine continues to keep under review.

In 2018, the Department commissioned an evaluation of the availability of vets for the farmed animal sector, the results of which were published in 2020. The results showed that in general terms, Ireland compares favourably with other European countries in terms of the number of veterinary practitioners per 1,000 inhabitants, with 0.43 in Ireland, compared to 0.41 in the UK, 0.29 in the Netherlands and 0.29 in France. However, the study did signal that certain parts of rural Ireland face challenges, with relatively few practitioners operating in some peripheral areas. Based on anecdotal evidence as well as several studies published in Ireland and elsewhere, it appears that the retention of veterinary practitioners within the profession is contributing, in part, to some of the difficulties being experienced. The Department is in the process of updating the study published in 2020 and we expect to publish the updated version before the end of June.

The Department has been happy to support the expressions of interest process that the Higher Education Authority, HEA, commenced in October 2022. The recommendations from the HEA have been provided to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and discussions across Government are continuing. We look forward to continuing to engage in a constructive and collaborative manner on this issue over the coming period.

As has been mentioned earlier, the number of vets on the register has increased significantly, by somewhere in the order of 25% since 2017 and a considerable number of Irish students are going abroad to study veterinary medicine. However, despite the increase in numbers, it seems that demand has outstripped supply. In that context, it makes perfect sense to explore the possibility of having more veterinary places available for students in Ireland and this exploratory process is now under way.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Will I go first?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Sheahan for his presentation. I will be brief. I do not want to put the proverbial commentator's curse on this but usually when we have departmental officials in here for session two, we have had lobby groups or people with issues before us in the previous session so we get armed but today, everybody is singing off the same hymn sheet. Our guests have given us a good synopsis of how the process is progressing and it is to be welcomed. We had submissions from the farmer representative bodies on this previously. As I said at the start, it is possibly the first time that we are all singing off the one hymn sheet.

When the decision is made, we want things to happen quickly. Our guests are all on the same side on this so a lot of the questions that we might put to the Departments have already been asked and have been answered by the HEA. The timescale is important. I appreciate the sensitivities involved here because there was a call for expressions of interest and the HEA is working its way through them at the moment. I accept and appreciate the sensitivity there and would not expect our guests to give us any information that would be deemed sensitive. That said, is there any indication of the time scale here? I presume, given that we are now in May, that we are not looking at the 2023-24 academic year but would 2024-25 be a possibility?

I got caught out the last time by going first. I did not lobby for the Technological University of the Shannon: Midlands Midwest but all of my committee colleagues who came after me lobbied for their respective areas. I am not going to get caught out twice on the one day and am putting that on the record now. That is tongue in cheek, by the way, but we had a lot of local politics in the last session. The only question that could not be answered earlier related to the timeline. I suppose it was answered in the sense that we were told the Departments and the politicians will make a decision on when it happens. Can our guests give us an indication of the timescale involved in terms of what is progressing at the moment?

If and when we have an expansion of the number of places, could we grasp the nettle and try to become the world centre of excellence for veterinary studies? UCD is that already, in many respects. I was thinking that maybe we could specialise in the equine area. We all know of our standing in the racehorse industry. If numbers permitted, it would be great if we could become the world centre of excellence for equine veterinary training. The numbers at the moment do not permit us to bring in many people from outside the country. Indeed, we are not training enough of our own vets.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

I thank the Senator for his questions. Having listened to the earlier session, the question on the timeline is relevant. We are in a deliberative process at the moment and the matter has not gone to Government yet. Therefore, I am not going to be able to give the Senator a definitive answer with regard to the timeline but there are a few things I can say. First, the Senator is right that the 2023-24 academic year is too ambitious. We are in train with the CAO and all of that but given the capabilities that would have to be put in place, we are not talking about the coming academic year. On the issue of where are vis-à-visthe steps in the process, we are engaging at the moment with other Departments and received reports from them a number of weeks ago. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has met the Minister for Health on the other side of the expressions of interest process and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the issue of veterinary provision.

The Department has been engaging with the HEA on some of the detailed points in the report, which is very strong, so we have a clear understanding of the issues. We need to talk to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform because that is the way the process works.

Any extension of this provision is, by its nature, costly. There are reasons it has not been done for 50 years. It is a very costly form of provision. We need to talk to our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The Minister has indicated that he wants to bring the matter to the Government in the first instance to do a number of things. He wants to advise his colleagues of the opportunities identified through the capacity-building process. He wants to outline the costs that could arise with any expansion. He also wants to update his colleagues and engage with them. We will then take that forward into the Estimates process and any process relating to capital allocations, because that is what it boils down to. It is a matter of competing resources. This is a costly endeavour and we must consider how it feeds into the budgetary process. That is the key question. The budgetary process happens in autumn. Without prejudging what the Government will say, those are the steps we are taking. However, these decisions are not made in advance of budget time.

Mr. Michael Sheahan:

I will come in on the second part of the Senator's question about going the whole hog and taking a centre of excellence approach. As the Senator rightly pointed out, UCD now has a well-deserved reputation and features in the top ten in the rankings. It would be fair to say that it has taken a fair amount of blood, sweat and tears over many years for UCD to achieve that level of excellence. It is not an unreasonable ambition that whoever eventually gets the nod to provide extra capacity will aim for a very high standard. The Senator mentioned equines and that is an obvious thing. We are world leaders in many ways in respect of equines so that is not an unrealistic ambition.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. What is the Department's view on regional balance when it comes to the creation of the new veterinary schools? Is the Department working on the assumption that it will be one new centre or is it considering opening new centres in several places? If we are talking about regional accessibility, what kind of spread has the Department in mind in that regard?

Mr. Keith Moynes:

That is a good question. Regional balance is very important to us in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We recognise the role that higher and further education plays in driving regional skills needs in making regions sticky and meeting their needs. It is important to us. I cannot speak to what decision the Government might want to reach on these issues but to be sure, the regional dimension will feature in any multi-criteria analysis. When we looking at the different options available in a process like this, we will certainly be considering the regional dimension. We will be looking at what colleagues are telling us about sectoral demands in terms of that regional dimension. We will be looking at that alongside considerations relating to cost, affordability and capability, but regional issues will be a strong consideration.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Will it be just the one new centre or are talks continuing for others?

Mr. Keith Moynes:

I think the HEA told the committee earlier that it has not yet given us a recommendation for a single institution. It has recommended scenarios. What will need to be considered by the Department, and ultimately the Government, is which scenario matches all sides of the multi-criteria issue. We must consider what will best meet the needs of the sector and students, and how such an approach will compare in considering affordability, resources, capital expenditure and all of those issues. A balanced decision is required. Those are considerations we will be bringing to the Government.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department any data about the full extent of people's interest in pursuing veterinary medicine as a career? We were told earlier there are 135 places in UCD, and numerous people do not get onto the course. Some students, perhaps for monetary reasons, are not able to go to a foreign county to study. Have we any idea how many people are put off doing veterinary medicine because they cannot get onto a courses a result of there being so few places? Has the Department any working assumptions as to how to arrest that situation?

Mr. Keith Moynes:

My six-year-old was building veterinary practices with LEGO last night so there might be an issue in 12 years' time.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That child will have to start thinking about the CAO.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

I am saving up. I hope she is very bright. The Deputy's question is fair. The data we have show that in recent years, between 860 and 1,000 people have applied for veterinary medicine through the CAO process. We know there are 82 places available. We do not have statistics on what proportion of those people who are not successful in their application move away to study but, broadly speaking, one would imagine that a proportion of the cohort goes on to study in central or eastern Europe. There are a few hundred Irish students overseas. Undoubtedly, a proportion of that cohort are studying abroad. A proportion of that cohort probably take their second or third choice. Others might take a year out. Still others might go back and repeat their leaving certificate examinations. There is a variety of choices that people make in that situation.

To answer the second part of the Deputy's question, this boils down to supply and demand. There is no high-demand course in medicine or veterinary medicine that can be matched one for one. One would not want that to be the case because it would misalign with the employment opportunities that are available. However, it is undoubtedly the case that for veterinary medicine, a far higher proportion of people are going overseas to study. That suggests a reasonably high latent demand for veterinary medicine. As already stated, the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has said he wants to see more Irish and European students. When we speak of Irish students, we must remember that we have to apply the same rules to EU students. The Minister has said he wants to see more Irish students being given the opportunity to study in Ireland. Any execution through this process is intended to develop additional provision and that is the sort of process involved. I do not think there is any other way to ameliorate the situation except through students choosing other courses. However, if students are determined to study veterinary medicine in Ireland and are not offered one of the 82 places currently available, the only model available is the expansion of the provision.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Of those who go abroad to study, have we data to indicate if they come back? It is an awful pity we are so short of veterinarians here and are still sending students abroad. The unfortunate truth is that many of those students do not come back for a long time and we are stuck in the same situation. Do those who study abroad come back once they are qualified or do they stay put and come back at a later date?

Mr. Keith Moynes:

It is hard to track exactly. We know that a few hundred Irish students are going overseas to study. We have figures for first-time Irish registrants with the Veterinary Council of Ireland. In 2022, 72 first-time Irish registrants were educated in UCD. Approximately 66 first-time Irish registrants were educated outside Ireland. The proportion is, broadly speaking, about half and half. That would imply that people are coming back after studying overseas. The proportion was also half and half in 2021. Fewer were returning from overseas in 2020, perhaps as a result of the pandemic.

It seems that between 50% and 60%, approximately, educate in Ireland. There does seem to be a degree of return but it is hard to trace exactly.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. We have another vote in the Chamber so we will have to suspend.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair for allowing me in because I am not a permanent member of the committee but I have a really strong interest in this subject since my time on the Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. I want to make a couple of points about this. First, on accreditation standards across the island, can we have assurance that any consideration that is given will have the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons accreditation as well as the Veterinary Council of Ireland?

Second, I will not talk about a specific higher education institute but it is very important that whichever one is selected has the capacity to deliver the world-class excellence we need. We have a wonderful opportunity here to do that and that must be first and foremost in terms of being able to attract the very best teachers from around the world. We need to bear that mind while we are doing it. I am thinking of North-South accreditation and being able to attract the quality teaching staff.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Leddin have a quick comment? We have another vote and I would like to tie up the meeting and not to be delaying the witnesses.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair. I will be very brief. Mr. Moynes’s opening statement was peppered with cautious language. I may have to go to a vote but perhaps he could answer on the record, if the meeting continues while we are away, about the sense of urgency in the Department on delivering this project. The opening statement referred to an entry for 2024-5 or 2025-6, but I do not get the sense of urgency from the statement. Mr. Moynes is right in many ways to be cautious and I respect that, and we have been told about the discussion around the budgetary process, that the Department will see how much it costs, leaving the decision and so on. I am somewhat concerned if that is the thinking - perhaps there is not the thinking - around the urgency and the logistical challenge of delivering a very significant education facility, as this would be, because if we were talking about 2024-5, that is only a year away. In the previous session, Ms Muldoon said this would be a very big undertaking for whichever institution may come out on top. I would like if Mr. Moynes could answer that if the meeting continues.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We will try to finish because it is not fair on the witnesses. If Mr. Moynes could answer Deputy Conway-Walsh’s question first and then Deputy Leddin’s, please.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

Accreditation is a matter for the institutions, but patently North-South engagement is critical for the mission of any institution. Professional recognition of qualifications and the ability of graduates to work in all places on the island and elsewhere in Europe is critical, so while accreditation is a matter for the institutions to seek, that is a critical thing to which they will have to have regard.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What was critical in the assessment of the original assessment? It is important we get that right from the beginning. I will leave it there. I have made my other point about the capacity of the higher education institutes to do that.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

We absolutely agree about capacity. On Deputy Leddin’s point, the statement reflects the reality of how the process works. We asked the HEA. The Department commissioned this piece of work in October and we got it in March. We are engaged in very detailed engagement-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Moynes mind if I asked him for a written reply to the last two questions?

Mr. Keith Moynes:

Of course.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There will be voting on amendments to this Bill consistently. If he could give a written reply to those last two questions, we would really appreciate it.

Mr. Keith Moynes:

Of course.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, I am not trying to be rude. I thank the witnesses for their constructive engagement with us and for coming in today. I do not think I have ever seen such unanimity around a committee room as there is on getting this project up and running. While there might be some issues along the way, I think we are all on the one hymn sheet that there is urgent need for this. Senator Paul Daly’s point about an equine centre of excellence, with our great reputation, is one that could be developed.