Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am very pleased to open this public hearing of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the topic of the constitutional future of the island of Ireland. I warmly welcome the Senators who are members of the committee. Senator McDowell has joined us as well. This is the first day of our public hearings. These public meetings are the second part of a process that began in July, whereby the public were invited to make written submissions to the committee. On behalf of the committee, I sincerely thank everybody who sent in a written submission.

This year marks the centenary of Seanad Éireann. While we are glancing back, we are looking forward. The public consultation will look at the constitutional future of the island of Ireland in the context of the ongoing public policy debate on the issue, the safeguarding of the peace process and the future we would all like to see for generations to come.

As part of the public consultation process, we invited submissions from individuals, interested groups and organisations from all over the island, from all communities and all traditions. The committee encouraged all those traditions to put forward their views, whatever they are, in order that we could hear about their vision for the future. The Seanad Public Consultation Committee acknowledges the important work of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The Seanad public consultation process was as follows. We wanted to: listen to the views of young people throughout the island of Ireland, including the voices of the communities and traditions of Northern Ireland, on their vision for the future; examine the criteria for referendums and the lessons of referendums held here and in other jurisdictions; and consider the societal and economic opportunities and challenges that should be considered, such as all-island healthcare, all-island education, housing, climate change, biodiversity, culture and language, sport, reconciliation and the important question of the subvention in Northern Ireland. Following on from all of our hearings, we will issue a draft report, which will be prepared by the committee and published as soon as possible.

I welcome the members of the Public Consultation Committee. I will name them all. There is the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Senator Joe O'Reilly, and Senators Frances Black, Victor Boyhan, Pat Casey, Emer Currie, Vincent P. Martin, Mark Wall and Niall Ó Donnghaile. I thank Senator Gerry Horkan, who is substituting today for Senator Casey. Most importantly, I welcome our witnesses. We are here to listen to you, the young people, who are representing the voices of many throughout this island about the future you would like to see for this island for the next 100 years and beyond. I welcome Caitlin Thompson, Eoin Forkan and Eoghan Flood from Foróige and Frederique Offereins and Conor McAuley. Thank you, Conor, for being here. I welcome Roisin Myers from the National Youth Council of Ireland. We have Eoin Millar, Holly Clyde and Kate Lynch from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum and Niamh Mallaghan, who will speak on the theme of youth advocacy. I welcome you all sincerely and thank you for all the effort you have put into drawing up your thoughts on how we should move forward.

I will now read out the legal briefing. This is standard practice at all formal sittings of all committees. I remind you all that it is a long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in respect of any identifying of a person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with such direction immediately. For our witnesses attending remotely, there are limitations on parliamentary privilege. I remind Members that they are allowed to participate in this meeting only if they are on location in Leinster House, which they are.

I first call on Caitlin Thompson from Foróige. Caitlin, you are most welcome.

Ms Caitlin Thompson:

Good morning, a Chathaoirligh, committee members, Senators and fellow young people here today. My name is Caitlin Thompson and I have a voice. We, the young people sitting in the Seanad, have voices, important voices, and our voices deserve to be listened to. I want to talk about the significance of our being here today, including our voices in this discussion about Ireland's constitutional future and ensuring we continue to have an influence on the processes that could radically affect our future and the future of this island.

Ireland has come a long way since the days when it was the case that "children should be seen and not heard". Young people's presence in the Seanad Chamber today compounds just how archaic that statement is. It shows how much we have evolved from those traditional, limiting and conservative views from our parents' and grandparents' times.

I speak from my experience when I say that young people today are inclusive and accepting and demonstrate immense generational development. We focus on treating all people as people. These values are all needed in decision-making, political conversations and the question of constitutional change and a possible united Ireland. As young people, we are part of the solution because we see the world through the proverbial youth-coloured glasses. We are important for what we bring to the table today, not just when we are older and in positions of leadership then. In fact, young people are ideally placed to play a leading role in this conversation here and now.

I am fortunate to have the invaluable opportunity to act as youth observer to the board of directors of Foróige, elected by my peers around the country. This experience is instilling in me a deep understanding of the inner workings of the organisation. It contributes to my development through building my skills, such as confidence, communication and critical thinking, but is also positive for Foróige, making it more inclusive and future-forward by having young people represented and able to influence the organisation's direction at this high level.

I acknowledge that there are many young people who may not always have the opportunity to have their voices heard. It is for that very reason that it is important to enlist other young people to act as advocates for their peers and to make sure we give opportunities and support to young people from all walks of life to participate in order that youth voices are included in the decision-making processes of important political decisions that affect our future. What could have a greater impact than the decision process of Ireland's constitutional future or the chance of a united Ireland? Young people, time and time again, display our stellar ability to take the initiative and to do our research on topics that matter to us such as climate change, social injustice and so forth. This ensures we have a level of understanding and allows us to speak factually on issues that affect not only us but all of society. Our pursuit of issues that we care deeply about highlights our ambition to be included in and to meaningfully influence the decision process. Perhaps this means allowing young people to vote at the lower age of 16. We are passionate about building a future that is fair and just for all.

In recent years, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has supported young people's voices, as seen through Comhairle na nÓg and the initiatives around youth participation in decision-making. This has led to real change for young people such as the comhairle executive's successful campaign for a youth travel card. This highlights how a positive relationship between young people and decision-makers at a local and a national level can contribute to forward-thinking change, but all are striving to achieve a common goal. As the old Irish saying goes, ní neart go cur le chéile: we are stronger together.

I invite the committee members to take a look around the Seanad Chamber today. The faces they see are the future of our island. The decisions made today and tomorrow are decisions that will ultimately alter and shape our lives. If we do not encourage and engage our young people to participate in our democracy, we risk an Ireland where young people are enticed abroad by better financial and lifestyle opportunities and where they feel more valued. There is no more important decision that could affect young people's future than the possibility of a change to the island itself. The way that young people experience Ireland, North and South, will be different from the experiences of older people, and the history and memories they have will shape their perspective. A nation that does not listen to my voice, the voices of the youth, is a nation without a future. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí: encourage the youth and they will get there. I thank the committee for listening to my voice today.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Caitlin. Next we have Eoin Forkan from Foróige who will speak on the role of youth work in uniting communities.

Mr. Eoin Forkan:

Good morning everyone. I am 17 years old and I am from County Mayo. What I want to talk about today is the importance of youth work and its role north and south of the Border. It can play a vital role in the future of this island and I will explain why. I will begin by telling the committee a bit about myself. I have been involved in youth work since I was 13 when I joined my local Foróige club. I have seen from my experience and that of my friends that youth work provides important spaces and opportunities for young people. In my home of north Mayo Foróige gives young people a safe space outside of school where they can make friends, meet up, discuss their ideas and relax in a setting that may not be possible in all homes.

In rural Ireland especially, a youth club helps to open up the country to young people in a way schools often cannot. It allows us to go on trips and meet like-minded people. We can join Foróige's special interest clubs or attend events such as balls or regional conferences. It also lets us meet the local adults who volunteer to run the clubs. It helps us to feel more connected to our communities. In short, youth work gives young people a place to be themselves and have a sense of place and belonging.

My involvement with youth work has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life, giving me opportunities such as speaking at an international conference at the University of Galway and being here today. It has also allowed me to meet peers from various communities and backgrounds and not only those I meet in school or in my neighbourhood. Having grown up in rural north Mayo my experience with cultural diversity was limited to say the least. During my time in Foróige I have got to know an incredible variety of people from diverse backgrounds. I have worked alongside young people with ties in Poland, Nigeria, Iran and Britain among many others. Getting to know this diversity of experience and opinions has been hugely beneficial to my perspective. For me this is the value of youth work.

In Northern Ireland it is still common for young people from different communities to attend separate schools, socialise in different locations and play different sports. When someone enters through the doors of a youth club they have an opportunity to drop all their labels and just be themselves. In my experience youth work allows young people to come together outside of all the different groupings, discuss the challenges and issues that affect them and work together to find solutions. For example, in the spring young people in Foróige recommended that all affiliation fees be waived for any Ukrainian refugee wishing to join. Within a month this decision was agreed and formalised by the board. Youth work gives young people from all backgrounds the time and space to collaborate on issues such as these. The opportunities provided by youth work for discussion and problem-solving will play a vital role in the future of the island because they support a foundation for uniting various communities. Through youth work we have the chance to discover what we have in common and what brings us together. When we work off our commonalities as opposed to our differences we can achieve great things.

Youth work is hugely overlooked in the development of young people. We speak mostly about school. Of course school is important but it does not allow young people as much freedom to choose what we want to learn, including important skills we will need in our future such as leadership, empathy or citizenship. The scope of education needed for life expands beyond the classroom. Youth work has the space to fill these gaps. Youth work has made me more openminded and empathetic. Most of all, it has increased my confidence in ways I could never have imagined. If you had told 13-year-old me when I first joined that I would be speaking in front of you today in one of the most important buildings in Ireland I would probably have called you delusional. This just shows the impact of youth work.

The role of youth work as a form of education does not only benefit young people. It also provides an invaluable learning experience for the adult volunteers who run the clubs, giving them an opportunity to be involved with their entire community across generations. This collective learning in our communities will help to bring us together throughout the island. Improving the quality of our future leaders will make approaching difficult questions about Ireland's future easier. I hope the future of this island is one of peace and prosperity with young people at the centre. I thank the committee members and other witnesses for listening to me and I hope they enjoy the rest of the day.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Eoin. Now we have Eoghan Flood who will speak on the view from the Border counties.

Mr. Eoghan Flood:

Good morning everyone. I am 18 years old and I am honoured to share my view on a united Ireland as a young person from the Border counties. I grew up in Monaghan and I am now studying in the Ulster University in Derry. We could say I have seen both sides of the coin. In today's political reality it is increasingly likely that politicians North and South of the Border will have to be open to discussing the possibility of a 32-county Irish state. Of course they will have to ensure there are equal rights and equal opportunities for all its citizens. A process such as this is easier said than done and it will take a lot longer than some hope. The people of Ireland on both sides of the Border and their elected representatives need to take this into account before dates and goals are set. We cannot rush into any decision if we have not even started the conversation. We need to talk about the issues openly before we come anywhere close to having a referendum. This is why it is important that we are here today to speak about the options facing us.

I have grown up in a Border parish in north Monaghan where a united country has been a desired hope for many locals. Unfortunately many do not see the process as involving the citizens of Northern Ireland in a meaningful way. They assume that Northern Ireland would just join the Republic when, in fact, any such process should be about bringing the two together. I have realised the questions that must be asked to satisfy people on both sides of the Border. These may be very uncomfortable for some but they are essential to achieving a united country. Can we agree on a new capital of Ireland, such as Sligo or Derry? Can we create a new flag to unite North and South of Ireland?

There are very few groups throughout the island of Ireland that bring together people from all communities. The only one that clearly comes to mind is the Irish rugby team. It is unfortunate that even sport is divided. Why can we not include everyone in every sport? The GAA does openly include unionists but it is still seen as an nationalist sport. Other types of social groups or activities are also divided. Living by the Border I have not had the opportunity to mix with young people ten miles away from me because we all attend different societies and clubs. On top of this there is no straightforward transport system in the Border counties to facilitate young people moving back and forth easily. Small things such as these are vital so we can start to make it easier for young people to get to know each other. We have to provide meaningful unifying opportunities for all.

I have also come to the realisation that many in the North perceive healthcare in the UK to be very good compared to the system here. Many young people I have met in Derry have said they would be open to a united Ireland but only if free healthcare was guaranteed. If we move towards becoming a united country we will have to work out how to integrate two different systems in a way that works for everyone.

Growing up in a Border parish in County Monaghan the Troubles had a huge impact on my upbringing. It is clear that support is needed in the Border region. It is essential for two governments North and South to create schemes that allow young people on both sides to come together regularly. PEACE funding is very important to support this work and must be safeguarded and continued. I am glad to see a good start to this with the new PEACE campus being built in Monaghan and the announcement of additional funding in the budget on Tuesday.

It is 100 years since the creation of the Irish Free State and the creation of the Border with Northern Ireland. In this time so much has changed on both sides of the Border. It is now time that we really focus on making a start, put in the time and investment and develop the working systems of the two states. Moving beyond the focus of a 32-county country, it is now time to start the process of working together to put a stop to violence and stop focusing on the differences between people and instead show the passion we have for a united island.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Eoghan. I will call next Ms Frederique Offereins, who will talk about the challenges we all face in the decisions we need to make.

Ms Frederique Offereins:

What does the constitutional future of the island of Ireland hold? It holds a reflection on the decisions we make today. It holds the lives of my generation and of all those to come. It houses the prosperity and the growth of this island, whether that be with or without a united Ireland, but really, it is as simple as that. The future is a matter of us growing older and of us living our lives, a simple human process which is made easier by the support we receive from one another. If we look on our lives with such a simple viewing glass, I invite the committee to look at the matter at hand with the same lens. I ask it to envisage a society in which any political stance is removed and there is no backwards mindset, where we look forward into the sun and leave the shadows behind us.

We educate people from all around the country on what a peaceful unity between the North and the South can and should look like. The only way to do this is by taking a step back and realising what is truly important in our lives. An article from the Human Givens Institute outlines that each human being must fulfil a certain nine emotional needs. When we strip back all the man-made problems in the world, we are left with these nine basic needs. Energy is simply energy. We can use it well or we can use it badly. We can minimise the amount of energy that is wasted by elements of society by rebelling and fighting and instead guiding them towards more beneficial ways of spending this energy.

Catholic, Protestant, North or South, our focus should be on ensuring that our basic emotional needs are respected and are met. In order for society to benefit from living on this island, it is important to stay focused on these needs, as it gives us a different purpose to fulfil rather than fighting and constantly fearing a change that is ultimately to come.

Within Northern Ireland, there are conflicts rooted in Catholic and Protestant communities. How can these two religions live side by side peacefully on the rest of the island and in the rest of the world, yet a different religious belief divides Northern Ireland so severely? It is a division which many people might not even be aware of in this country. In a united Ireland people of these religions would be allowed to practice their beliefs freely. They would still keep their identities and ways of life but in the diversity of culture and beliefs would be a nation that could prosper. As a nation, we must include the communities within Northern Ireland, which are still victims of segregation and sectarianism, and whose basic needs are constantly being compromised. I feel that now is a better time than ever to strive for reuniting the people from the entire island after generations of political and religiously-driven segregation. The future of Ireland is important to everyone in this room, but particularly for this upcoming generation, which remains largely uneducated on the current status of our island, including the Troubles which continue on in Northern Ireland, Troubles we must start to involve ourselves in.

What is the first step? The first step is educating and you educate through simplicity. We must show those who are stuck in the past what is really important and what will allow us to move forward, which is focusing on our basic human needs and helping each other to achieve those. We must take this stripped-down version of our lives and we must encourage everybody to realise what is truly important: the safety of our lives and the well-being of the future generations. We must remind them that we all have the same unanimous goal, a goal which can be fulfilled when we work together and when we work on our needs.

Take a look at our national flag, for example. It stands for inclusivity. I, myself, was not born Irish, yet I have never felt like a foreigner in this country. Such is the acceptance within this country to live side by side harmoniously. Yet, we remain completely alienated from the Six Counties, which lie just across the Border. We cannot continue to turn a blind eye to these Troubles, because they are more the responsibility of the UK than of Ireland.

One of the biggest assets of my generation is our ability to accept change and adapt to modern ways of life. If you were to ask a teenager who was walking down the street the question, “Why is our island divided?”, I would say that they could not give you an answer. In my opinion, that is because the division is only caused by generation upon generation being ill-informed and being unwilling to change by staying stuck in their old ways, in the past. This is because much of the time, that is just what is done. Yes, this is a past that needs to be remembered but it is no longer relevant to the modern way of life and we must overcome it by putting our differences aside and embracing them.

In difficult times our responses have a purpose, but these are no longer difficult times so that response must be altered. I ask each member of the committee to picture himself or herself with only days left in his or her life. He or she can look back on each crossroad and each decision he or she has ever made and, more importantly, how these decisions directly affect an individual's life. He or she would hopefully look back on times like these with a positive outlook on how we attacked this issue at hand, which was through unity by diversity. I see a nation that can prosper from side-by-side living, where both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland can benefit from supporting each other while still allowing individuality. It is time that we heal as a team or we suffer as individuals. I thank the committee for its time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on the Senators to ask questions, I would like to call Mr. Conor McAuley from the National Youth Council of Ireland.

Mr. Conor McAuley:

I thank the committee for being here today to listen to me. The future of Ireland should be an all-inclusive one, where community surroundings are adapted to suit people’s needs so they that can live and work independently. Equality on our island of Ireland is a must. This means fully accessible transport throughout Ireland and not being left on a roadside because an inaccessible coach turns up or being left in a train station because it is unmanned, or having the person you booked 24 hours in advance not show up. Recently, our Government in the South invested in 41 new rail car carriages that disabled people still will not be able to get on independently and still will have to book 24 hours in advance.

On the issue of suitable, accessible housing, one person in eight on the island of Ireland has a disability and housing should be adapted to their needs. Local authorities need to include community support systems. Personal assistance is necessary to support living and inclusion in the community. People have also been on waiting lists for social housing for years and this needs to change. Youth services should be made all-inclusive so that no one feels isolated or alone, because mental health, I feel, is a disability in itself. We need more access to these services.

Hospital services are severely delayed and diagnosis of conditions are taking so long that it delays supports being put placed to help somebody with their disability. If there is a service available through the NHS that is not available through the HSE or vice versa, we all should be able to access it on either side of the country.

Counselling also should be made more available and quicker to access for people with disabilities. In my own experience, I have been sent to appointments up a flight a stairs in buildings that the HSE use. I have had to ring to change those appointments to suitable venues that are further away.

The Government, when introducing the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, said that the cost of living is approximately €350 a week and rising, yet it expects people to live on a disability allowance of just €220 or even less in the North of Ireland. Carer’s allowance should not be means tested, because carers are either underpaid or not paid at all. Most people are carers not through choice but through circumstances. When education stops, so do personal assistant, PA, hours and people with disabilities are left fighting yet again when they need their PA most in order to help them live and work independently.

Workplaces should be more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities and they should be able to get easy access to PAs in order for them to contribute back to society.

There should be more incentives for companies take on people with disabilities. I hope that the laws that have been implemented in recent years are put into practice so that all the people of Ireland, regardless of disability, religion, sex or nationality are treated equally, with the respect that we all deserve. I thank the committee for letting me speak here today.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Caitlin, Eoin, Frederique, Conor and Eoghan for their contributions. We will have five more contributions but before then I would like to invite Senators to briefly ask questions. The first Senator who has indicated is Senator Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will be brief. First, it is marvellous that we have these youth voices before the committee. We have spoken about minority voices in Northern Ireland. We have spoken about Northern voices and minority voices in the South as well. I am awe-inspired, as I think we all are on this side of the House, to see this Chamber full of young people and to hear the voices of youth, which are strong. I have one question, but before I do, the recurring themes of the five speakers before the committee today are clear and consistent.

These young people are from all sides of this island of Ireland and this is also part of this wonderful process, and I pay tribute to the Cathaoirleach in this regard.

To touch on some aspects of what was said, "diversity" was the strongest word used. Then there were also references to equality, inclusivity, unity, acceptance and accepting. These words recurred continually in all the speeches. Young people want to be part of the solution, and that came through loud and clear from all around the Chamber today. References were also made to a future for the island of Ireland that is fair and just.

That is a summary of my takeaway from the contributions that were delivered powerfully, impressively and emotionally by the witnesses. I say, "Well done" to them all. I have one question. Identity is an emotional response. It is a powerful response, and we all have our own identity that stems from where we come from, our past, our tradition and our culture. Turning back to the keyword, "identity", I ask the witnesses to share with us, in a few words, what they think identity means to them and if they see a greater acceptance in this regard. I ask this because we talk about diversity, respect, inclusivity and a united Ireland, but I would also like to talk about united minds and hearts. If you win hearts, you win minds. Therefore, I ask the witnesses to touch on the keyword of "identity", what it means to them and how they understand this concept in their contexts.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Boyhan. The Senators will ask all their questions collectively first and then any of the witnesses can indicate if they would like to respond. They do not have to respond, but they can indicate if they wish to do so regarding any of the questions raised. I call Senator Black.

Frances Black (Independent)
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It is an honour to be here to hear the witnesses' voices. I felt so emotional listening to them that a few times I nearly burst into tears because they were so inspiring. I feel our future in this country is in safe hands because we have young people like these here with us. It really is a privilege, and I thank them all. Some of them have travelled from far and wide to be here. I also thank the Cathaoirleach for pulling all this together because it truly is a wonderful day. It is the beginning of something new and fresh. Eoin mentioned conversation. This is the conversation that needs to be had. Thankfully, these young people are all here today to have this conversation. We should not be afraid of this conversation any more. We must have it. We must talk about planning and preparing for possible constitutional change in future. There definitely has been a shift in this regard. A huge event is happening in the 3Arena concerning having this conversation with all parties. It is so refreshing to hear all the voices here today. Ireland's future is in their hands, and it is in safe hands.

Turning to my questions, reference was made to the fact that many young people in the North of Ireland have limited opportunities for cross-community interaction because, and this is contained in the submission that was given, they attend different schools and play different sports. What do the witnesses think could be done to promote greater contact and understanding among young people, North and South? How can Governments, North and South, better support voluntary organisations, like those represented here today, in working with young people? Those are my two questions.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for their excellent submissions and presentations. Regarding the Foróige submission, I had the pleasure of working with the organisation in Blanchardstown, specifically with Miriam Ryan and the team there. I am originally from Tyrone. I grew up in a house that was committed to youth work. We had a youth club. I did not have the same opportunities when I moved to Dublin. Therefore, I completely agree with what the submission states regarding youth work allowing people to focus not on differences but on commonalities. This aspect was fed back today in the presentations by saying there were no labels. We need to see more of this, in the North and between the North and South. We do not need to place too much pressure on it, because it will happen organically when we bring young people together and let them discuss issues collectively. I have seen that happen first-hand in Dublin 15.

I hope today is the day we start to move this conversation on from whether we want a united Ireland to the issue of the united Ireland we want. I agree completely with Eoghan that this is easier said than done. It was stated in the submission that young people are a massive part of this process and that they wish to be involved in the nitty-gritty, in discussing the issues and to be part of our journey in seeking how we can bring together the best of both jurisdictions, based on the values of peace and reconciliation. How do we ensure young people do not just engage in this conversation in a romantic sense? How do we ensure young people are part of the journey in exploring how we can make this happen? I say this because we need a framework for the great amount of work that will be involved in this endeavour.

I thank our guests for coming in today. It is an historic and momentous day for us, and I hope it is the day the conversation starts to move on and they are part of that.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to extend a warm welcome to all of our witnesses. Senator Boyhan talked about how great it is to hear the voice of youth in this Chamber. As the youngest Senator present, I want to say, among all of my distinguished colleagues, how great it is to represent the voice of youth on this side.

I thank the Chair for organising today and ensuring that dialogue happens. As previous speakers said, we have had a very significant week with the launch of the Northern Voices exhibition to highlight minority voices and different voices heard in this Chamber which, for the 100 years that it has existed, has always been the essence of what should happen.

In discussing the constitutional issue and our island, one thing that worries me is at this very moment in time we have an Assembly that is not doing exactly what we are doing – meeting, speaking and exploring the thoughts that the witnesses have done today in such a careful and thought-provoking manner, bringing it to the level that we need for discourse. Mr. McAuley spoke about the need to address basic disability services and transport, which is what people care about. Looking at the census results from the North this week, that is what people care about. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses on the fact that while they are discussing these issues, the adults in Stormont cannot get themselves in the room to hear each others’ voices and discuss issues. Does that worry them? What does that mean for the constitutional issues we are discussing?

Mr. Eoin Forkan:

I will address Senator Black’s two questions. On encouraging young people to come together across communities, they go to different schools and play different sports but especially in sports, much of that is just from what their parents did and their parents’ time and they have just continued what their families have been doing. However, youth clubs, for example, do not have a history of sectarianism and being split with one for unionists and one for nationalists. Youth clubs are a great space to bring young people together.

Governments in the North and South can support them with more funding. Much of Foróige's funding is tied up in projects. We run many youth projects in disadvantaged areas. It is hard to get funding for clubs because it is all tied down in projects. Governments could provide more ore undenominated funding to these clubs.

Ms Caitlin Thompson:

I thank members for their feedback. It was interesting to hear their side of things.

I would like to address Senator Ó Donnghaile’s comment regarding my posing the question to the committee on lowering the voting age to 16. It is a controversial topic and everyone has their opinion. However, when we look at it, it is our futures that we are affecting. The Senator asked when it should be and whether it should be like the Scotland referendum. It is important now. It is important that we weigh in, which I mentioned in my statement. It is more important because we have the abilities. Maturity might be a question, but we are here today representing young people. We would not be here today if we did not want that constitutional change. By representing ourselves, we prove that we have the ability to be part of voting society and democracy.

I also wish to address Senator Boyhan’s point on identity. Identity is important in our world and we see that. Every young person and member in this room has their own identity. Identity is your characteristics, how you treat other people, how you converse with other people, how you benefit the world in a better way and how you contribute to society in a way that you can develop and engage others. Identity is the most important aspect in our conversation on constitutional change.

Regarding united Ireland, we all have our identity and that is important. Looking at each other, we can see past religion or race and see each other for who we are and what we do.

Mr. Eoghan Flood:

I would like to address Senator Ó Donnghaile’s point. I completely agree that the Troubles had a big impact on business and industries in the Border are but there are only two ways of fixing this. It is about putting the recognition out there and providing funding and grants for businesses in the Border region and the transport facilities to get people around there so they will want to come and live there and not be scared of the Border. Many people have been scared of the Border. They still are scared of the Border and a united Ireland. This is how it is done and we need recognition of this region in the whole of Ireland, not just in the Border counties.

Mr. Conor McAuley:

It was good to hear everybody’s feedback and I thank them for it. I wish to comment on the Senator Currie’s last point. It is important to start off with basics; that is how we will get a united Ireland. We all want to go for the bigger picture, but we have to start off with the small things first and build our way up. That was a very good point, because we need build together as communities before we can go ahead and crack on.

Ms Frederique Offereins:

I thank everyone for their helpful feedback. I want to continue on Ms Thompson’s point on identity. It is very important in the conversation now because it is something that does not go away. We will all always hold onto our identity. Those who are scared of a united Ireland or something else that might happen will always still have their identity. Physical individuality will not change, whether people are in a united Ireland. That identity is then something we can all learn from. We can speak to each other and learn from our own cultures and backgrounds. That will help with moving forward. It is very important that we stay in touch with our own identity and stay true to who are when we are moving forward on it as well.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senators for their questions. We will now go to the next five speakers. I call Ms Myers from the NYCI.

Ms Roisin Myers:

I thank the committee for the invitation and opportunity to speak here today concerning the constitutional future on the island of Ireland.

We live in an Ireland that currently has the youngest population in Europe, with more than one third of our nation’s population being under the age of 25. These young people are our country’s future. It is vital that they are enabled to develop the necessary skills to enact change, engage with global and national issues, learn the importance of teamwork in community involvement and understand the power behind their voice. These skills are nurtured through experience and taking a hands-on approach.

Organisations throughout the Republic of Ireland and Europe use vital funding, such as Erasmus+, to provide young people with opportunities to engage in international youth work. Erasmus+ is the EU programme for education, training, youth and sport. It has a budget of €26.2 billion for all of Europe to fund learning mobility and cross-border co-operation projects for 10 million Europeans of all ages and backgrounds.

I am speaking this morning as a young person who has had the privilege of engaging in youth work, both at a national and international level. I wholeheartedly feel that this youth work has been crucial to utilising my voice as a young a person and in developing my opinions on topical affairs. I developed these opinions through going out into the world and conversing with fellow young people from a diverse range of multicultural backgrounds. Examples of this youth work include working with the NYCI, through the Young Voices EU Youth Dialogue and travelling internationally with the European Youth Parliament. Attending events like these open many doors for me, including my attendance in the Seanad this morning.

As well opening my eyes to a world of opportunities, taking part in international youth work shaped who I am as a person. Providing a space for young people to explore and discuss topics that are highly relevant in today’s ever-changing world instils a sense of empowerment and nurtures self-confidence within young people.

International youth work acts as a stepping stone into our future. It creates bonds between various countries and allows young people to challenge their personal biases and become more tolerant and understanding of other cultures and communities. Listening to various experiences enables them to consider perspectives that they otherwise would never have given thought to. The benefits are truly endless so it deeply upsets me that passionate and diligent young people from Northern Ireland could not avail of the same opportunities I could solely because of a lack of access to funding.

Post Brexit, the UK Government replaces EU funding with an initiative called the Turing scheme. The scheme aims to act as a global mobility programme for students from a variety of institutions such as colleges, universities and schools. The scheme is an inadequate replacement for the Erasmus+ programme as its structure is systematically exclusionary and creates a gap that many young people outside of the formal sector fall through. The vast majority of the opportunities that I have availed of are unrelated to my formal education. The Erasmus+ programme has always had a reciprocal nature of disregarding fee differences between participating universities. Previously, this made the prospect of studying in the UK, where fees are high, attractive to foreign students thus increasing social mobility among youth from across the globe. The Turing scheme has no such nature which means that European students, including those from the Republic of Ireland, are discouraged from going to the UK for study placements. Also, students with a British passport must apply for a long-term visa to live in a Schengen state for more than 90 days in an 180-day period. This can be a costly process that requires proof of economic solvency, which many students do not have. Why is the replacement for EU funding targeted towards marginalised youth and the non-formal sector? In order to move towards a future in which there is collaboration and strong relationships on the island of Ireland, actual mobility and social mobility should be guaranteed for all irrespective of their geographical background.

In conclusion, I will make a few suggestions to the committee. First, funding should be allocated for which organisations can apply to fund collaborative efforts between young members from the North and South of the island. Second, a unique framework should be devised that would allow youth organisations to work together. Scouting Ireland is an example of an organisation that has managed to adopt an all-island approach, although it has not been easy. Progressive changes like this allow for unity within groups. In Scouting Ireland, scouts are not viewed as being members of Scouts UK or Scouting Ireland but rather as representatives of their respective counties. In creating these cross-Border links there is a widespread feeling of unity, connectivity and solidarity among members. My suggestion would encourage other organisations to follow suit. Finally, I would like to see a continuation of discussions between young people on our constitutional future on the island of Ireland. Conversations in which a multitude of perspectives are heard, such as those occurring today, allow for understanding and creative thinking. I propose that a committee of young people be formed to continue these progressive conversations. Giving a seat at the table to a diverse group of youthful voices is crucial in aiding decision-makers to create sustainable policies that adequately cater to all. It also gives young people faith in the future because they feel listened to and believe their views are taken into account. Providing a formative space for understanding policies supports young people to see themselves as co-designers of policy processes and outcomes. We can only begin to move forward if all sides are listened to. Is fíor an seanfhocal, ní neart go cur le chéile. I thank the committee for its attention. I welcome any questions and comments on my contribution.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Myers for her comments on the theme of international and European youth work and opportunities. The next speaker is Mr. Eoin Millar from the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, NIYF, who will speak on the theme of children's rights and the future.

Mr. Eoin Millar:

I thank all of the speakers who have spoken. It has been invaluable to hear their opinions. I am a charity trustee and the treasurer for the NIYF. Our purpose is to promote the youth voice, which we were established in 1979 to do. We promote the youth voice in a variety of methods through "have your say" days and by directly engaging with decision-makers.

Today, I will focus on children's rights, which are a key part of my vision for the future. Primarily, the main form of children's rights comes from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC. The United States of America is the only state in the whole world that has not ratified the convention. Saudi Arabia, North Korea and even Somalia have ratified the convention. I believe it is crucial to use diplomatic links to enshrine the convention within the United States of America.

Closer to home, the UNCRC has four general principles: the best interests of the child; non-discrimination; having a say; and survival and development. I doubt that any person would disagree with the importance of these principles and the requirement for a modern society to look after its youth. The UNCRC also has other optional conventions that further enshrine children's rights.

A periodic review is currently being conducted for the United Kingdom. The NIYF's submission is our youth manifesto for change which utilises a rights-based approach for our key themes. The thematic manifesto has been compiled following research we conducted over the past five years, and after meeting stakeholders and conferring with young people on the document.

Currently in Northern Ireland there are approximately 500,000 young people aged 25 and under. This is new information that was recently released following the historic census results, and other results were published there as well. It seems that children and young people make up between one third and one quarter of Northern Irish society with lots of varying identities. Regardless of identity, one thing that must unite us all, young and old, is rights. We know they exist but education is properly lacking within the specific realm of children's rights. We know that we have the right to vote if we have reached the age of 18, and that we have the right to life, privacy, etc. Through our own research we have realised that children and young people are unaware, through no fault of their own, of the special rights afforded to them. Do rights truly exist if one is not aware of them?

I was first made aware of the UNCRC when I was 16 years old. I had returned to school after the Covid lockdown. That summer was a mental and hectic period. I found it challenging, but it helped me to grow and made me more resilient. I saw a notice that the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People, NICCY, was looking for youth ambassadors. NICCY is the Northern Ireland equivalent of the Ombudsman for Children in the South. I decided to apply and was lucky enough to get accepted. Only for such good luck I would not have known my rights when they were still afforded to me. Now that I am 18 years old, I fall outside of that scope. I only had two years in which I was aware of my rights and was able to talk to decision-makers knowing the power that I had because of this document. The Children's Law Centre stated in its submission to the periodic review that there were "systematic failures, with no comprehensive framework to provide strong protections for children's rights in Northern Ireland". Why does that matter? States must respect, protect and fulfil the convention regarding all of the decisions that affect children and young people, but we have seen regression in certain states. We know that children and young people are utilised as soldiers in certain areas so not only is their right to life and play removed but their childhood is also ruined, and childhood is a precious and truly once-in-a-lifetime thing. We have also seen that rights have been made harder to access in terms of knowledge and implementation. We have seen rights being taking for granted such as the overturning of abortion rights via Roe v.Wade in the United States. We need rights in order to have a meaningful and powerful future, regardless of what the constitutional arrangements are. Therefore, knowledge and empowerment are crucial. When children and young people are aware of their rights, they know when some entity has wronged them and can seek redress to make a more fair, equal and just society.

Young people are not just the future because we are here and we are now. I thank the Chairperson for inviting us. I do not have a view on constitutional change but regardless of what happens, children's rights must be protected and enshrined in law everywhere. I thank everyone for their time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Millar. The next speaker is Ms Holly Clyde from the NIYF who will speak on the theme of youth apprenticeships.

Ms Holly Clyde:

I am truly delighted to be here today. I am a youth apprentice at the NIYF. Today, I will talk about the importance of apprentice roles and their impact on young people. An apprenticeship is a paid job that offers a hands-on leaning experience with professional help and mentoring. Last May, I started as a youth apprentice at the NIYF along with two other apprentices. My role consists of shadowing qualified youth workers, helping to deliver group work and getting to know basic housekeeping such as checking emails and other aspects of being an employee before going out and working full-time. Experiential learning is a massive part of my job along with constant reflective practice, which is definitely drilled into me in my community youth work degree.

I decided to apply for the post because I had thought for a while that I should move jobs in order to gain more experience for university. Previously, I worked in a youth club in my local area as the youth support worker in charge but I felt that I was not ready for full-time employment and was unsure of where to go or what to do. Luckily, a family member sent me the job application the day before the deadline.

At that point I did not know what being an apprentice meant but I thought I should just go for it. What was the worst that could happen? I quickly settled into the Northern Ireland Youth Forum due to how welcoming the staff are and the atmosphere in the building. The forum has supported me in ways I have never been supported before. We are forever doing check-ins to see how everyone is and what is going on. It helps track our journey and we can reflect on it. In the youth forum I work on the housing and homeless team, which is close to my heart. I, along with another apprentice, go out to shared accommodation across Northern Ireland to deliver group work and build relationships with young people who have been through similar experiences to us. We are intervention workers while the third year apprentice is a prevention worker who goes out into schools to do workshops on how to prevent homelessness and make young people aware of their rights.

Apprenticeships provide opportunities for young people aged between 16 and 21 years and in some cases those aged up to 25 years. This includes my workplace. Not only do they build pathways of opportunity for young people but they also combine academic and technical instruction with paid work. It gives young people a chance to experience working life while being provided with a wage and valuable skills, including effective communication, active listening skills and organisational skills. As an apprentice, you receive mentoring by professionals. This gives young people an idea of what a career as a youth worker is like and helps to find your specific interests. They also provide young people with an incentive to work hard and develop new skills and qualities that lead to well-paying careers.

For young people, apprenticeships can be motivating, practical and affordable. They are motivating and practical because young people enjoy learning by doing and they are affordable because you can earn as you study and learn - that was not actually meant to rhyme. Rather than other young people diving straight into full-time employment after education with no training or mentoring, apprenticeships enable mentors to provide support and allow young people to overcome challenges. Mentors play a positive role in the development of young people and helping them to get to know themselves more through personal and social growth. The mentors give out constructive advice that helps to develop confidence and independence when moving forward in the workplace. Apprenticeships are also cost-effective and bring positivity into the workplace. There is funding from the government to help towards paying apprentices, and more businesses need to be made aware of the advantages employing apprentices bring. Some of these advantages include that young people embarking on apprenticeships are willing and eager to learn and contribute new ideas for the company. Their positive and fresh approach will have a domino effect on other staff members, which can help revitalise an organisation. According to a recent government study in the UK that was carried out by YouGov, 78% of employers said apprentices helped them improve productivity. Registered apprentice roles last around four to six years and youth apprentice roles last one to three years.

I will share a few quotes from my fellow apprentices Demi and Shannon, who are not here with us today. I asked them both them same questions, namely, what is important about having youth apprentices and what is the importance of having youth apprentices for young people. For the first and second question, Demi said that as a youth apprentice she finds it important to use her life experiences to help other young people realise their full potential and break generational and societal expectations put upon them. She said representation is important, including having young people see other young people who have experienced similar challenges and overcoming them to be in a position of influence and empowerment. Shannon said it gives someone with lived experiences a chance to use them in a more positive light and it shows they are not alone and can make it. My ask to decision-makers in the room is to create more awareness of youth apprentice roles and make them more available and accessible to young people to provide the opportunity of earning a wage through experiential learning. I thank the committee for its time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Holly. Next up we have Kate Lynch, who will be speaking on the theme of sectarianism.

Ms Kate Lynch:

Go raibh maith agat. I am a Northern Ireland Youth Forum executive committee member and I also work as a part-time youth community worker in the north Belfast area of the North of Ireland. Working in the deprived area, I have had first-hand experience of trying to challenge sectarianism and the organisations and paramilitaries, or both, that are targeting young people.

Growing up in my community, sectarianism ran rife and this caused severe riots and civil unrest. I normalised and internalised every stereotype and made a list of everything I thought I could not do and did not deserve due to a religious identity I did not choose to be born with. It is truly heartbreaking to see the cycle can repeat, with the young people in my community facing that same reality, but why is that still our reality? Many give the expression of sectarian perspectives as a result of transgenerational trauma for young people born after the Troubles, but this is not good enough. The ideologies held by the older generation immediately affect young people as they are impressionable and want to be accepted into the community they are born into. The Belfast Good Friday Agreement was monumental as a peacemaking document, but when we look at the language and clauses, it is heavily dependent on the future young people of the North of Ireland. Without good role models, how can we fulfil the legacy of that document? People in power and decision-makers have at times not modelled the behaviours outlined within the agreement to inspire young people to adopt a differing mindset. Governments at times cannot work together and rights-based issues such as an Irish language Act, marriage equality and abortion rights act as a barrier to doing their elected responsibilities and duties. In youth work there is a government-funded strategy entitled Together: Building a United Community, T:BUC. I beg to say our policymakers may benefit in being participants on these programmes and not the young people. This could be an example of the trickle-down impact of our decision-makers and may give us a reason to see the impact of a sectarian mindset in communities.

Paramilitaries continue to have a presence of power and control in communities. Young people are often targets of this, do not feel safe and can at times be influenced to do certain things. How do we get a safer North of Ireland? There are government initiatives helping us as a society to work together to bring about an end to paramilitary influence in the North of Ireland. These groups being able to cause less harm to communities is a key priority. Though I recognise the hardships government has faced due to the pandemic, political deadlock and now the cost-of-living crisis, unfortunately, I see none of these amazing goals outlined being achieved or attempted within my community. As a youth worker rooted in cross-community work and reconciliation, our society and youth settings should be for everybody to be able to access a safe space within their community to seek opportunities. Again, this is unfortunately still a fantasy for many young people in north Belfast. As I live on an interface, I walk to and from work in fear for my life and the lives of young people aged as little as seven years because of paramilitary groups influencing and instructing young people to riot at our gates by throwing fireworks and even throwing weapons like knives. It is easy to make decisions from a chamber or presumptions from your sofa, but to engage with these young people can make a real difference that leads to the creation of meaningful change.

Today, I stand as an example that you can break free from the list of norms young people are being taught. I am giving a voice to those who seem voiceless, and showing them religion does not define your capabilities or how far apart your eyes are. I am asking decision-makers in Ireland as co-guarantors of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement to review their approach to paramilitary influence on communities and how we as a collective can work together to tackle paramilitarism.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before we go back to the Senators for questions, our final contributor is Niamh Mallaghan.

Ms Niamh Mallaghan:

I thank the committee for having me here to speak about my experience as a young person in the North of Ireland. I am elected honorary secretary of the Northern Ireland Youth Forum. I am here to speak about youth advocacy. That means young people like me sitting in rooms with decision-makers and having a say on the issues that affect us. Obviously, this meeting is a fantastic example of something like that and the first one I have been lucky enough to come to in the South of Ireland. This currently happens in a very limited capacity through work like the Northern Ireland Youth Forum. I have been in rooms in Stormont many times. I have been to Westminster and met with councillors, but that is not the norm. I am extremely lucky to be involved in this organisation and have those opportunities. Young people are consistently telling us they are not being heard when it comes to pretty massive issues, including mental health, the Covid-19 pandemic - we did a massive piece of research on that where young people were saying they do not care about us at all - voting rights, which were already spoken about today, and peacebuilding. For the future of Ireland, I hope young people are brought into these conversations as valued members and not just for the sake of trying to appease the youth but to enact meaningful change.

Why would you ever try to decide something on behalf of another person without talking to that person first? I am not going to make my mate dinner without asking them what they fancy. It makes no sense to leave young people out of this conversation. This issue is particularly bad in the North where our government parties seem to decide every five minutes that they do not want to work with each other. When we ask decision makers to enforce change or even to have a conversation with us, the excuse in recent years has often been that the government is not actually sitting so nothing can be done at the moment or that it has just started back up and so has more important things to do. If we are lucky enough to have a functioning Executive, we have to fight against the green versus orange issue to get any change whatsoever. For young people in the North, this is not only incredibly frustrating, but is keeping our society from progressing to any acceptable degree. Personally, I am coming to the end of my university degree and my family is constantly telling me that I should leave the North because nothing is ever going to get resolved and I am just going to get stuck in the past. That is awful. It is my home but my family is telling me I will be better off somewhere else.

We have sat in rooms with politicians and realised very quickly that they had us there for a meeting simply for the photo opportunity or good PR. They think that, because we are young people, we do not have anything important to say. Perhaps they just do not care that much. Sitting here today, I have heard all the young people make fantastic speeches and points. We have important things to say. Especially when you are under 18 and cannot vote yet, politicians do not feel they need to appease you through having conversations with you. It is incredible the change we can make whenever we are actually taken seriously. We are valuable and contributing members of society and we can fight to have our voices heard. I have seen young person after young person come though programmes like the Northern Ireland Youth Forum and fight for change in their communities and their country. Whether decision makers listen or not, they will continue to fight and to make change. It would just be a whole lot easier if the decision makers helped out in the first place.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of our contributors.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for being here. It is really valuable to have them here. Perhaps some more of our own Members could have been here, although they may be watching, but I have never seen the Seanad Chamber this full. It is never this full. You can tune in any day of the week and you will never see as many people in this room. The fact that the witnesses have all turned up and are here and that they have got involved with organisations that gave them the opportunity to be here is fantastic. I have no doubt that, in five, ten or 15 years' time, we will see some of their faces in this Chamber, in a new chamber somewhere else or in the Dáil. There is no doubt about that. Most of us were involved in youth politics in our younger days. I was. I remember watching Senator McDowell setting up a brand-new party when I was growing up and when he was younger than he is now. Senator Cassells and I were both in Ógra Fianna Fáil and, when that was set up in 1975, it was to challenge the main party rather than to be a patsy and to say that everything in the senior party was fine. Séamus Brennan set it up to challenge the senior party. It is really important that the witnesses are here and, for me, this is more of a listening exercise than a time to make long speeches. However, I do have a few points to make, reflecting the fact that I was listening.

I will not be available this afternoon because I am going to Germany Unity Day, which celebrates what is probably the most recent example of a unification process close to home. The day is technically Monday but the ambassador is having a small function this afternoon. It is fitting that we are here on the day that, so many years ago, East Germany and West Germany reunited. It had to go through a process to bring two systems and two peoples that had been divided for a long time together again. It provides a practical example. It is important to reflect on the Taoiseach's objective of a shared island. It is not about threatening or questioning anybody but determining how to share the island and, for example, how to merge our health services.

There is an issue in border areas right across the world. If a government invests in a border area, half of the people who benefit are not in its territory. That government is spending money for the benefit of people who cannot re-elect it. This can be seen in local authorities and at national and international level. Border areas will always suffer because, if you put money into the centre, everyone around there can vote for you. If you put it into north Monaghan - and I have a great-grandfather from Monaghan - some of the spillover will not benefit your jurisdiction and the people who can re-elect you. It is the same on the other side of the Border. That applies in Germany, Spain, Portugal or anywhere else. Those challenges have to be overcome. That is where things like the PEACE programme and other things have helped.

I am on the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. We have done a lot on low-floor buses and so on but the idea that we are buying any transport infrastructure that is not accessible to everyone is completely unacceptable in this day and age.

I have a question. I took on board the points made on voting at 16. When I have campaigned as a candidate in local elections and, more recently, in general elections, I have found people who are aged 22, 23 and 24 who are not registered to vote. How do you engage? It is a challenge. The witnesses are here and engaged but in the South of Ireland we have recently seen young people who should not be driving at all ramming Garda cars and not participating or getting involved with organisations like those here today. How do you get those people engaged? How do you get people who are very comfortable and in very nice areas but who cannot be bothered voting or registering engaged? When a referendum on an issue they are interested in comes along they may register but I have found people of 23 or 24 who have just not bothered. That is a challenge I am asking the witnesses about.

I have another question for all of the witnesses. If they were around the Cabinet table tomorrow, as Taoiseach, Tánaiste or Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, what would they like to do first? What would be their number one and number two priorities? We have come a very long way as a country. I was looking at the number of people who did the leaving certificate in 1923. It was 700. There are now approximately 60,000. We have brought our country a long way but the past is the past.

We need to build on what we have achieved. With all of the representatives' help, involvement and advocacy, we need to make it a much better country for everybody on the island. We need to create a state that everybody wants to be part of as opposed to being part of a different state.

I may live in Dublin but I have two grandparents from Mayo. Mr. Forkan may have noticed that our names are not that dissimilar. I do not know if somebody spelled my name or his wrong a million years ago, but perhaps we are connected somewhere. Equally, while my grandmother was from Ballina, her father was from Monaghan. We are all more connected than we think we are. We probably have a lot more in common than divides us. At the same time, I can see Ms Lynch's point about the impact of tribal behaviour when people say "we are good and they are bad; you cannot talk to them or deal with them." This is what results when people have been brought up never knowing others. We heard the comment about eyes being too close together or not too close together, or whatever it was.

It is important that people talk. It is important that people listen and engage. My challenge and my question to the witnesses is to set out what would they like to do if they were in power, and not just here for a day. If they were here and had to get re-elected in three, four or five years' time, what would they say are their top priorities? With regard to youth engagement, how do we engage with those who are not here and are not involved? This is a problem in parts of the island from North to South, and from well-off areas to disadvantaged areas. I thank all of the witnesses for being here.

Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I will start my questions with Ms Myers. I mentioned youth work and the importance it played in my early life. I do not feel that here in the South we are investing enough in universal youth services. I believe this has become more of an issue in recent years. If we were giving enough funding to universal youth services, it would pay dividends. It would certainly help to fuel this conversation. I really see value in a 32-county approach to youth work. We also need more adult volunteers. There needs to be more awareness of getting adults to participate. They are an essential part of this as well.

With regard to Lanark Way and the interface, I am aware of how much youth workers did last year in holding people back and persuading them that returning to the past is not the way for the future and is not the way for progress. I absolutely hear Ms Lynch's point, and I will return to this shortly.

With regard to Mr. Millar's contribution, we should take it as an action point for today that when we look at the framework and the size and the scale of the work we must do in approaching constitutional change, children's rights must be a key part of that. This applies not just here on this island but also in the international context. I really appreciate Mr. Millar highlighting that knowledge, empowerment and awareness of rights must be part of that. This is the beauty of what we are doing now. We can write the vision for what we want.

I completely agree with what Ms Clyde said about apprenticeships. I am pleased that she has a pathway that is working for her. It can work for many other people too. Just last week our Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, announced more apprenticeships in farming. One of them was in sports turf. I did not really know what this was, but I learned that it involves work in places like golf courses. The number of different apprenticeships will increase to approximately 100 over the next couple of years. Again, it must be a key feature of our framework, our vision for apprenticeships as a pathway and the creation of opportunities.

I completely agree with Ms Mallaghan about the Assembly. The Assembly is not optional. Power-sharing was set up because when we share power, we share our problems and we realise that we have so much more in common than we have in terms of our differences. Using those differences to collapse the Assembly, and to create a cycle of collapse and crisis, is not doing anybody any good. At a time when we are facing a cost-of-living crisis, the witnesses' elected representatives are not able to do the job they were put there to do. I absolutely agree with the witnesses that it is time for politicians to stop letting the Good Friday Agreement down, and to work it as best as possible. I will not just concentrate on the politicians in the North. Over the past 25 years there were three strands to the Good Friday Agreement and they all need to work together. All of those institutions have to be worked with a permanency. We need to see a recommitment to that permanency as we approach the 25-year anniversary.

With regard to the youth workers' voice, we need their voice for this conversation to be effective. In that spirit, we would welcome any suggestions and any ideas. It goes back to what I said previously about how young people are part of this conversation. They help us to create a vision that brings people with us while we are talking not just about what a united Ireland is in conceptual terms but also about what that actually means.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I will keep it very short. I thank the representatives for their contributions. We need their voice, as my colleague has said. The issues that we are talking about here today impact young people enormously. Sometimes we in Government Buildings live in a bubble. We are nearly institutionalised. I may be repeating myself but this is why it is so important that the witnesses are here today, and talking in particular about basic human rights for children. It is vital that we really bring that to the fore and prioritise it. It really impacted me to hear that young people are not aware of their human rights. There is something not right with that. Where is that coming from? Why is it not made a priority? Why are the adults not making it a priority? I thank the witnesses for raising these issues.

Ms Lynch's presentation was powerful. Young people, particularly in the North, have a multitude of challenges. As my colleague Senator Ó Donnghaile has said, I would definitely love to hear more. It is shocking to think that 25 years after the Good Friday Agreement, people are still afraid to walk down the street because of issues related to the conflict and the problems the witnesses have spoken about today. That is really shocking and it is not as it should be. I support my colleague in trying to organise a trip to north Belfast to hear the voices of young people.

I said that I would not talk for very long, but I have a few more points to make. The polls say that younger people are more likely to favour constitutional change. I am raising this as a general question. The witnesses may or may not choose to answer it. Ms Myers mentioned a forum. I would love to hear a little more about that forum and how she would see it happening.

Ms Clyde referred to apprenticeships. There is no doubt that in the North and in the Republic, we lose many bright, young and ambitious people. What can we do to stop losing young people? How do the representatives believe we can encourage more young people? Apprenticeships are so important. It is like the heart of our culture and of what goes on. What can we do to encourage more people to go into apprenticeships? What can we do in general to stop this brain drain?

Do the witnesses believe that constitutional change would create new opportunities for their generation? That is the question I would like to ask today. I thank all of those who have made wonderful presentations.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I thank everybody for what has been very interesting up to this point. I hope I do not change it. A number of things struck me. Mr. Millar took an agnostic attitude to constitutional change. He has different priorities. Ms Clyde concentrated on the bread and butter of apprenticeships.

At the same time, we are having a discussion here about identity and constitutional change. There are a couple of things I think we need to face up to. Yes, there could be a poll in Northern Ireland in five or ten years on Irish unity but unless we actually have some idea of what Irish unity is about, it will be like the Brexit referendum in England. People will vote for a principle and then find out that they did not solve a lot of problems. If we look at what is happening in England at the moment, we can see all the results of that.

I take the view, and Eoin Forkan made this point, that we have much work to do to actually establish reconciliation on the ground before we simply start talking about an abstract united Ireland or non-united Ireland identity, or whether a person is British, Irish, Northern Irish, none of the above or whatever. One thing that struck me, and I am going to be controversial now-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It would be very unlike the Senator.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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The elephant in the room that has not been discussed yet as far as I can see is denominational education. I am taking the point from all the Foróige people and everything else that youth work is hugely important because it allows people to break out of the channels into which denominational education puts them. However, it is both North and South, by the way. This is not a Northern Ireland issue alone. Can it be right that if a priority is learning to live with people with different identities that people go to a different school? I pose this question to anyone who is willing to answer.

Looking back over the education they have received so far, especially between the Christian faiths, is there anything now at this stage that really would make a difference if the witnesses' school was simply a Christian school or a non-denominational school? Is there anything they have learned that is of particular value because they were at a Protestant, Catholic or non-denominational school? In other words, is it important that we continue with denominational education? If we are going to have denominational schools, we are going to have denominational sport to an extent. Then we scratch our heads and ask how come all the Catholics are playing Gaelic games and all the Protestants are playing soccer and some of the wealthier people are playing rugby. We have to ask ourselves whether denominational education serves any useful purpose either North or South. This is a big problem for us in the South as well because the churches still have control over a lot of education.

I want echo what Senator Currie said that we cannot have a certain situation. I was part of the Good Friday negotiations and the St. Andrews negotiations where the DUP and Sinn Féin eventually came together and we had the Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness partnership arising out of it. However, one of the things that is in the Good Friday Agreement and that is still in the St. Andrews Agreement is, as Senator Currie said, this notion that a person can opt out. A person can say, "I am sorry, I am not concerned with hospitals or schools; I am more concerned with abortion", so we have no Parliament or no Assembly. He or she can say the Irish language is too important for him or her to put back for a while so we are not having a discussion about finance, health, education or the other things. Maybe the time has come when we talk about constitutional change to change that bit of the Constitution where people cannot just opt out of politics and use a veto on each other. I would be interested to hear the witnesses' views on that.

Lastly, I will mention the European Union. On both sides of the Border, a majority favoured staying in the EU. It strikes me that everything good that has happened on this side of the Border has happened largely because of the EU. I really think that Northern Ireland's interests are to be back in the EU, however that happens, be it in an Irish confederation sharing our membership of the EU or whatever it is. Do the witnesses agree with that proposition? Northern Ireland should get back into the EU because it seems to me it has done us huge favours. When we were out of it, we were floundering. Our population was going down. Now things are good, or rather better. We should be talking about trying to get Northern Ireland back into the EU. Do the witnesses agree with that?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator McDowell. Before I go back to our witnesses, I call Senator Clonan.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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First of all, I want to apologise. My son was in here this morning. He is 20 and a wheelchair user. He had to go through a health and safety briefing of the building. I watched the witnesses' contributions on the monitor, however. I am delighted that they are here. They made a very important point about young people. Believe it or not, I was once a young person. I did my leaving certificate in 1984. Do not add up the numbers. That is the equivalent of A levels. I went to Trinity College Dublin. I represent Trinity graduates now as a Senator. I was in the school of education in Trinity and we had sister colleges in Belfast. We had St. Mary's teacher training college on the Falls Road and Stranmillis University College with people from both communities.

As a young fellow from Dublin, I went up on the train. We had a couple of exchange weekends and my goodness, Belfast in 1984 to 1987 was a revelation. I do not know if these places still exist but we used to go to the Botanic and the Eglantine or as they were known then, the "Bot" and the "Eg". One of my favourite places was Lavery's. I see some flickers of recognition. I think I might have left some graffiti in the bathroom. It was an extraordinary experience for me as a young man to go to Belfast in the 1980s and make the friendships that we made. I had friends from St. Mary's and from Stranmillis.

I am sure everyone is familiar with "Derry Girls" and some of the issues around cross-community identities where people in one community might keep the toaster in the press while others have it out in the kitchen. I can tell you, we noticed straight away coming from Dublin that everybody in Stranmillis and St. Mary's were much better looking than we were, and they had better record collections. We made friendships. I remember I met one girl in particular who was in Stranmillis. She brought me home to her house and the first thing I noticed when I went in was that they had a picture of the Queen on the wall. I had only ever seen Queen Elizabeth on the television but there she was on the wall of the house. That girl's father was very suspicious of me. I do not think it had anything to do with my political views or what community I came from but eventually I kind of-----

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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It was his clothes.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I forged a bond with her father and finally he said to me, "You're my favourite wee Fenian", which was fine except for the word "wee". I took exception to that. We forged all of those friendships. I am still friends with some of the people I met 30 years ago. We did that against the backdrop of RUC land rovers, armed RUC patrols and checkpoints, the Ulster Defence Regiment going around in armoured personnel carriers and the British army. That was just part of the backdrop because for me, the most interesting part of that experience was meeting our fellow islanders and realising that there is nothing to be afraid of. We can celebrate each other's identity and reach out and embrace each other.

The reason I say this is because after I graduated from Trinity, I did a really stupid thing. I joined the Army. Now, as a grown-up, I realise that I would not recommend it to everybody. I found myself suddenly on the Border. I remember a particular checkpoint just north of Monaghan town in what we called the salient going into Fermanagh and south Tyrone. There were a stream of cars coming South. It was coming up to 12 July.

There was a kind of traditional exodus. It was a very warm evening and the windows of the cars were rolled down. We were at the checkpoint where I remember a child pointed at me from the back seat of the car and told his Daddy and Mummy to look at the wee Irish Brit. I thought it was very funny because, for that child, "Brit" meant somebody in uniform carrying a weapon. Having been on, if you like, the front line - without being too dramatic - we went from a situation in which we were carrying firearms on the Border or in the towns, villages, streets and byways of Northern Ireland to one in which that, to a greater or lesser extent, has been eliminated.

As part of my military service, I served in the Middle East and saw communities in Lebanon that were divided along sectarian and ethnic lines. I was at a meeting in Beirut where we saw Sheikh Nasrallah of Hezbollah talking about having the Koran in one hand and the Kalashnikov in the other. I remembered hearing talk in Ireland about having a ballot box in one hand and an Armalite in the other and I realised people all over the world are exactly the same. One of the problems in Lebanon was the fact that communities were educated separately and kept apart. It created suspicion, fear and conflict.

My last overseas experience was in the former Yugoslavia. My good colleague mentioned West Germany and East Germany. I do not mean to be alarmist but I do not believe Ireland is analogous to East and West Germany. It is more analogous to the experience I had in the former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia, because of the highly developed identities, traditions and cultures that cannot be amalgamated. We have to live together by whatever means. Senator McDowell has promised to send me an article he has written about all of the different models for how we might do so. It is very important to remember that we are all the same, essentially, and that there is nothing to be afraid of.

Whatever happens on this island in the next ten or 15 years, it will not be Senator McDowell, me, or anybody here - I will not mention the older people - who will have to navigate that. It will be the young people such as those in Foróige, the National Youth Council of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Youth Forum, my 21-year-old and 20-year-old sons and my 18-year-old daughter. They will live the next step of the peace process. I echo my fellow Senators' sentiments to get involved. I know that I am speaking to a group of people who are already involved and engaged, but there is faith among those of us with the grey hair-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I have a special shampoo but I will tell members about that later.

We trust in the young people and they are absolutely vital to what happens next on this island. If we get it right, it will be a considerable success. Of course parts of it will be messy, whatever happens next, but we can celebrate in that mess together. It is for all of us on this island, in whatever form or model it takes, to move forward together. If we talk to one another and reach out to each other, it will be a great success. If we do not, I can tell the committee from my experience, here and internationally, that we will have problems. There are unfortunately, in the Republic and in Northern Ireland, some voices who will say it is too soon to talk, ask that we not go there or say that they will not talk or will opt out. That is the antithesis of our future. We must start talking now about our shared future.

I am delighted to see my Northern counterparts here. I learned a great many new words in Northern Ireland such as scundered, foundered and wee spides. Are there any wee spides here? I hope not. The witnesses are very welcome. The educational system is keeping communities apart. Certainly my experience in the 1980s was that there was cross-community mixing in places such as Lavery's Bar and in the university experience. Is that still the case? Is social life in Belfast demarcated along lines or is it completely open?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It was interesting to watch the monitor outside and hear the responses on identity from the panel at the front and then to listen to the different sense of dialogue because it is a lived experience. I was especially taken by the contributions of the second group. I will touch on the significance, importance and strength of identity in the greater debate. It is very important and it reoccurs in all of the submissions we have received. It is a simple word but it is powerful and it means different things to different people. I know we have all talked about identity with regard to inclusivity, equality and all of those issues, which is great. It is a common denominator with most young people of the witnesses' generation. That is positive and we very much promote it in this House. However, what does identity really mean to the witnesses as people from Northern Ireland? Is it an obstacle in embracing something bigger and more powerful with regard to unity?

Ms Roisin Myers:

I thank the Senators for the recognition. I will first refer to Senator Horkan's questions on what I would first act on if I were put in government right here, right now. I would act on the Mental Health Act 2001. Mental health issues have been exacerbated due to the pandemic, especially among young people. This Act has been lying idle for many years. It was first brought up and signed on by multiple politicians in 2001. The committee reconvened on it multiple times in the past few years and, yet, it has still to be implemented.

This Act would be revolutionary for young people. It would allow them to access mental healthcare, which is desperately needed, especially in lieu of recent events surrounding Ireland's mental-health sector for young people. It would give them access to mental healthcare of their own volition without needing to consult a doctor or have their parents or guardians involved. It would be amazing and revolutionary. I still wonder why it has not been implemented. It is vital and very much needed. I strongly believe that physical health is just as important as mental health. Why are we staying so idle when our young people are bleeding out? It is shocking.

The Senator asked what we would do to engage young people in voting, especially people who are of voting age and have not registered. I would make it mandatory for schools to have members of the Garda come into school to speak to fifth and sixth years who are coming of age or of age to vote. They could set up a quick event in which people could register to vote. It is a very simple and quick process that would help many people. The process can be tricky and confusing to go through on one's own and this would mitigate many people avoiding voting.

I think Senator Ó Donnghaile's question was misconstrued within the line of communication but I wish to refer to it. I think it was something along the lines of EU funding being an incentive for young people in Northern Ireland to vote to rejoin the EU. I agree that it may well be but I was speaking about the here and now, and the very near future. We require funding for young people, irrespective of their geographical background. Whether they are from the north or the south of the island, they require attention. In order to move towards a more peaceful and understanding future between the two sides, an equal and level playing field is needed. Young people should be offered opportunities to engage in national and international youth work, irrespective of where they are from. That is what I was talking about with regard to requiring funding from the EU.

Senator Currie is preaching to the choir. She was speaking the language when she said we needed more adults and volunteers to man youth organisations. To travel to an event with the National Youth Council of Ireland, I have to get up at 5 a.m. to catch a train at 6 a.m., to be in Dublin for 11 a.m. for an event.

It is extremely exhausting for me. There are not enough facilities down in Cork, where I am from. I am from a town but have to catch a train to travel to the city just to get to my local group. There is no group for me at a sufficiently local level to allow me access within my community. I have to take a whole day off school. This is a huge demand for me given that I am doing the leaving certificate. It is incredibly taxing on my student life, yet I am so passionate about this that I am willing to take the risk. We absolutely need more engagement down south for everybody, especially regarding the training of people to look after these youth events. Many young people, being under 18, cannot attend the events without adult supervision. There is no incentive for them. It should be mandatory that we provide more training events, widespread throughout the country, for adults to engage in youth work.

Senator Black asked about a forum I suggested. I do not just suggest a forum as a one-off event. I suggest that a committee of young people convene to speak about issues that will affect young people's futures. To move towards a brighter future in which we have a level playing field for everybody, we need to have a say on all these issues. As committee members can see, a wide spectrum of issues have been raised regarding the constitutional future on the island of Ireland, but these issues need to be talked about in more depth. We need to have young people to consult on these issues. Therefore, I propose an ongoing initiative, not just a once-off forum.

Mr. Eoin Millar:

I will try to be as brief as I can, given that others have to speak in regard to the questions. For Northern Ireland, the EU has funded something magnificent, the Peace Bridge. That is really symbolic of the work the EU played not only in peace-building but also in fostering good relations. None of us here had a say in or got to vote on Brexit. I am now here and believe we are lesser off as a consequence. Being European forms part of my identity. I would say I am European, Irish, British and Northern Irish. I am a plurality of things in that regard. No one is more important. My sense of being European does not trump my sense of being Northern Irish, and my sense of being Northern Irish does not trump my sense of having a collage of identities.

Senator Currie stated power sharing is a way to share our problems. I truly agree. As I said in my opening statement, I do not really have a view on the constitutional future. Actually, 17 MLAs with the Northern Ireland Assembly do not have a say like that of those who designate, be they nationalist or unionists. When it comes to the petition of concern, their vote is meaningless. It is weighted in favour of cross-community majorities. We need to tackle the needs of the people I am referring to and enfranchise them. They comprise a growing group in the North, for better or for worse.

With regard to votes at 16, our organisation, Northern Ireland Youth Forum, has conducted research in partnership with the Electoral Commission. We found it all bubbles down to education. There is a lack of political education. There is a lack of education on matters that make young people active citizens in society. Schools should set you up not only to be good at mathematics, English, languages and other subjects that are so crucial to the development of humanity but also to engage in the development of civic society as a whole.

On the young person's forum and Senator Black's comments, the others also have a key say. Arguably, there is no majority in Northern Ireland now. There is no nationalist, unionist or other majority. The others are the ones who will decide the future of this island. They really need to be talked to in tandem.

With regard to schools, there is another big, separate issue. People go to school and youth groups and then go back to their own communities, which have their own leisure centres and playing parks. It is a question of ours and theirs, us in them. Even this division of infrastructure causes issues. I know that, as a member of my community, I was not engaging with people from the other side. I find that Northern Ireland, regardless of where you come from or your background, is one community. We all care about healthcare and issues concerning schools.

With regard to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the recent election, the Members were elected in May to do a job. There is no excuse for not doing that job. It bubbles down to the fact that they are our representatives. If those people who are meant to be representing wider society are incapable of doing a job, it is an issue. Seeing the younger people here today, I feel they, I and everyone across Northern Ireland and the wider island should be up in the Chamber. The main issue is the fact that the majority of MLAs in Stormont want to work for their communities and address the cost-of-living crisis. We are entering a winter that will be very difficult for families, and there is a party that decides, through its mandate, not to take its seats. This is why the assembly needs to be reformed. Institutions need to be reformed. That will lead to a more mature society, a society that allows politics to work for everyone, not just them and us.

Ms Holly Clyde:

I promise I will make this quick. Senator Black talked about youth apprentices and why young people are not going into apprenticeships. I believe it is because of a lack of awareness. Apprenticeships are now becoming a more popular pathway but it is hard because many employers look for experience. At 16, you have just written your CV and are delighted when handing it in, but where is your experience? You will not have had time to get any; you will just have a national insurance number. The youth apprentice roles provide a different pathway, giving education while learning. They are vital. It is hard because young people may have to break a generational cycle in order to go down the apprentice road. They may have been brought up in a household where you go into education, get further education and then go into full-time employment, where you stay until retirement. However, there are so many other pathways available nowadays.

Touching on the point on identity, in Belfast you are born into a community. It is very hard to look outside it because you have everything you need at your doorstep. Some young people growing up think their community is the world and that there is nothing else outside that. They ask why they would want to leave their community. Therefore, it is a matter of breaking the generational cycle and understanding your own identity by taking a step outside the community.

Ms Kate Lynch:

It is really interesting. Everyone has answered their own questions. The key is discussion. Senator Clonan is going to love this bit of Belfast dialect, but, by not having the discussion, you are creating an us'uns and them'uns and a yous'uns and them'uns. Politicians help create that divide. I am not saying it is those present but the institution in which politicians work whenever people refuse to engage in the conversation by saying they cannot focus on a certain thing because they are now focusing on another. The subject under discussion should always be at the root of what we are talking about because it is clearly what every single one of us wants.

I agree with Ms Clyde in that, in Belfast, it is very much about where you are born. It is so hard to break out of that community. As Senator Ó Donnghaile will know, north Belfast is the best place in County Antrim. It is the jewel of the North; it is my favourite place in the entire world. It is the best. All I am saying is that it is great. It is really hard to look past that community when that is what I have been told. People ask, "Why would you associate with that community? C'mon, you have three chippies here; that is amazing." That is how we categorise it in Belfast. I really appreciate Senator Ó Donnghaile's desire to engage in north Belfast. It is really hard to get people at a table or in a community. That is something we have experienced as an organisation. It relates to the amazing question of what I would like to do. I refer to broadening branches. It is a question of having more youth services across the whole of Ireland. There are barely any youth services anywhere outside our hotspots. Even Derry barely has youth branches.

It is all very Belfast- and Dublin-centric, whereas in places like Banbridge, Tyrone and Monaghan, there are not as many options as there are in the North. I am just speaking from my experience as a youth worker.

By broadening that branch, you are answering your own question about the vote at 16. By broadening that branch, young people can gain qualifications and experience in ways they cannot anywhere else. For example, education does not work for everybody. There will always be people who do not have a GCSE, an A level or a degree to their name. From my experience of youth projects, I have been able to gain qualifications through them when I did not think I would get a single qualification from school. Through that, it comes down to the apprenticeship role as well, by getting involved and learning in a different way and with different people. It helps to build awareness around why the vote at 16 is important and why it is important to engage with your government, because you are learning in a different way. We follow a curriculum in youth work. It is about personal and social development, such as learning about your rights and what is important in your communities and stuff like that.

Ms Kate Lynch:

Absolutely. It would change just from the experience of the friends and connections they have. Social media is a powerful place where you learn so much about this. It would definitely change. The young people who I engage with would blow you away. I am not much older than them and they teach me a new thing every day. They blow me away.

Again, on the idea of broadening branches, more adult volunteers are coming into the system who will then become members of staff, like me, and that cycle continues because they see that positive role model. Creating that space for young people and those who engage with youth workers is important. People who work with children or young people are stereotyped as just doing it because it is a hobby and is easy money, and that we just sit and play games with the young people all day because we are not smart enough. That is a genuine thing that is to youth workers, day in and day out, and that is not the case. It is so important that a space is created for young people. When young people are being engaged with - Roisin said she had to take a day off school to attend - it is about fitting it to our timetable. We are all busy people. We all have families, but I ask that Senators work with us on our time as well rather than us having to come out of school, university or our jobs to meet with them because it suits Senators. Meet us halfway.

Ms Niamh Mallaghan:

I will try to keep this brief; I have just a few points to make. Many great questions were raised and I will not be able to address them all unfortunately. The first thing that comes to mind is how we keep young people in our country, which was mentioned. We raised issues such as the government, the lack of services such as transport, stuff like that, that are already a barrier for young people wanting to stay here. The one thing I would like to mention, which is a bit left-field, is brain drain. As someone studying for a master's degree in physics, I have been told that if I want to stay in the North of Ireland, there are loads of jobs in finance. I do not want to do finance; I have done a degree in physics. I find that a real barrier to me wanting to stay. There needs to be a broadening of the job market in the North of Ireland. I am not as familiar with the market in the South.

On segregation in schools, I went to a Catholic primary school and secondary school. I do not see why it needed to be Catholic. I had to do religion as an GCSE but that did not help me in society. What really helped me was joining organisations such as the Northern Ireland Youth Forum where I met a broad range of people. As a Catholic person from a unionist or Protestant area, it was nice to be in an environment where it did not matter whether I was Catholic or Protestant. When I went to university, I felt for many people it was less segregated but at the same time there is a bit of controversy. The speakers from the North will probably know what I am on about regarding a certain society within Queen's University Belfast. I will not mention the society because I do not want to call it names. The society was making things more difficult for a certain side of the community based on what society members were preaching about at the freshers' fair, of all things.

In terms of a united Ireland, I agree there needs to be a plan, if anything. Brexit was horrific because everyone was just voting "Yes" or "No". There was not a plan in place. I personally would love to be part of a united Ireland. However, I would not just vote on that based on whether I would like it or not. I would like to see what a united Ireland would look like and how would it affect the North and things like healthcare. As already mentioned, we get free healthcare in the North. The NHS is in no way functioning as it should be. I got a QR code in the post asking me if I still wanted a tonsillectomy, which baffled me after being two years on the waiting list. Those are the things that are important to me. Will I still have free healthcare? What will healthcare look like? What will the civil service look like? Will we need two civil services? It relates to all those kinds of things.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to let Ms Mallaghan finish.

Ms Niamh Mallaghan:

I completely agree that this is part of it, but the issue with Brexit was that the average voter, who is not in rooms such as this, was not educated on what Brexit would look like. This is the same issue. We can have all the discussions we want but my mum is sitting at home and is not part of this conversation. There needs to be education within the population about what that will look like. Sometimes people do not want to sit here and have this conversation. They do not want to be told, "Here, this is what you are voting on." It is like looking at a political party's mandate and stuff like that.

Lastly, I refer to the issue of identity. In Northern Ireland, depending on what arena you are in, your identity changes. While I am a Catholic and a nationalist, the most important parts of my identity, as Caitlin said earlier, are what I am doing, the work I am involved in and me as a person. We should not be defined by what we choose to vote on or what religion we identify with.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee, I thank our guests for their insights and contributions. They will be taken into account in our report, which will be finalised and sent to all contributors.