Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome: Ms Meg Ryan, migrant services lead caseworker with the Irish Red Cross; Ms Nuala Ward, director of investigations with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children; Ms Clodagh Carroll, Barnardo's assistant director of children's services; Mr. Nick Henderson, CEO of the Irish Refugee Council; and Ms Kathleen Moran, chairperson of the Library Association of Ireland School Libraries Group. Dr. Caroline Heary, researcher at the National University of Ireland Galway, NUIG, declined the invitation to attend as the subject matter of the meeting is outside her area of expertise.

The witnesses are here to discuss the educational supports provision for displaced Ukrainian students. The format of the meeting is that I will invite each of the witnesses to make a brief five-minute opening statement. Members will then each have an eight-minute slot to ask questions and receive responses from the witnesses. I ask the witnesses to keep an eye on the time during their five-minute opening statements. This is because there are several of them present and we wish to give the members an opportunity to come in. I also ask the members to keep an eye on the time during their slots.

As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish opening statements on its website following the meeting. Before we begin, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that one should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in a speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statement is potentially defamatory with regard to an identified person or entity, he or she will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

I invite Ms Ryan to make her opening statement.

Ms Meg Ryan:

It is my pleasure to be attending today. I am the lead caseworker on the migration services team of the Irish Red Cross. To give some context to my role on the team, the Irish Red Cross is tasked under its mandate as an auxiliary to the Government to co-ordinate offers of support from the public, to support the placement of refugees into accommodation and to support the social integration of refugees at community level.

The strategic goal of the programme is to enable refugees in Ireland to integrate into Irish society and achieve their potential. The Irish Red Cross has been providing support in this regard to the Government since 2015 to assist in the fulfilment of its EU commitment to promote the resettlement and integration of refugees under the Irish refugee protection programme. In addition to the cohort of Ukrainian people with whom we are currently working, the migration services team also works with numerous people from Syria and Afghanistan and supports community sponsorship programmes.

The migration services team has been working in co-ordination with the Government and partner organisations to assist in the Irish nation’s response to the war in Ukraine. The caseworker team provides active casework support to Ukrainians in Ireland through the matching of suitable accommodation and providing support to essential needs, such as access to medical support, social welfare and education, where required, in association with relevant Departments.

Regarding the purpose of today’s meeting, when discussing education and supports provision for displaced Ukrainian students, my main questions will be raised from a caseworker perspective, and will be influenced by the experiences I have witnessed with my clients. The main struggle I have seen evidenced among parents in Ireland is finding suitable access to school places in Ireland. With many schools already at capacity and with waiting lists, not all Ukrainian children have easy access to Irish education.

Access to additional language support and English lessons will ease much of the tension felt by students who have been thrown into a new learning environment in a foreign language but it would be my

recommendation to extend these supports within schools to include parents also. The provision of psychological supports for Ukrainian students in Ireland requires either appropriate language support for translation or a system whereby Ukrainian health care professionals in Ireland are given the means to practise in the State.

I look forward to today's discussion.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Thank you very much. I invite the next speaker.

Ms Nuala Ward:

I thank the Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science for the invitation to appear today to discuss the provision of education and associated supports for displaced Ukrainian students. As members of the committee are aware, the Ombudsman for Children’s Office, OCO, is an independent statutory body. It was established in 2004 under the Ombudsman for Children Act with two core statutory functions. One is to promote the rights and welfare of children up to 18 years of age, and the other is to examine and investigate complaints made by or for children about the administrative actions of public bodies, schools and voluntary hospitals that have, or may have, adversely affected a child.

The Ombudsman for Children’s Office notes figures published by the Department of Education on 6 June which indicate almost 7,000 Ukrainian children have been enrolled into the Irish education system. We welcome the action by the State in providing supports for children and families under the temporary protection directive. We also welcome work by school communities, NGOs and community organisations in supporting the inclusion and integration of children who have fled Ukraine into our communities and education system. We especially welcome efforts to support unaccompanied minors who have arrived into Ireland from Ukraine without a parent or guardian, which we understand totalled 146 children at the start of June.

We want to talk briefly about curriculum provision. We note exemptions from studying the Irish language are being issued in line with existing Department of Education guidance in Circulars 0052/2019 and 0053/2019, which we understand are currently under review. This means that children arriving from Ukraine under the age of 12, who do not have significant learning difficulties as detailed in the circulars, may not qualify for exemptions. We suggest that children may benefit from a more flexible approach to Irish language exemptions, and we have recently engaged with the Department in this regard. We have been assured that any changes to this circular would include consideration of the best interest of the child and we hope that will be reflected in practice. As we know, children under the age of 12, for example, may benefit from additional time in their school day to adapt to studying English as an additional language, or for work in supporting their movement to a different national curriculum.

On language provision, we welcome the commitments relating to language supports for Ukrainian children in Irish schools, including through the establishment of regional education and language teams, REALT. We note from the meeting of this committee on 1 June that 724 primary schools and 194 post-primary schools now have English as an additional language, EA, teaching resources, with additional EA support hours allocated based on numbers of Ukrainian children enrolled. These supports are key to ensuring children who do not have fluency in English can fully enjoy their right to education and they need to be adequately resourced and funded.

We also welcome the publication of information by the Department in Ukrainian. Going forward, it is important there is not a reliance on children to support communication between schools and their parents or guardians. We would urge that all efforts are made to help parents and guardians to integrate into school communities, and to help them make informed decisions. Interpretation and translation services, therefore, should also be provided to schools.

We also welcome the announcement of the summer inclusion programme. Culturally responsive education supports are important tools in ensuring integration and inclusion. The use of intercultural workers in schools – as in Northern Ireland through the intercultural education service – is an example of good practice in promoting integration of children into schools. Due consideration should be given by the Department of Education, school boards, REALT and schools to providing culturally responsive supports to children as they transition into the Irish school system.

In relation to psychological supports, I reiterate the OCO’s existing position as a strong proponent of the inclusion of therapeutic mental health support and services within all schools. Under Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child "State Parties shall take all appropriate measures to promote physical and psychological recovery and social reintegration of a child victim of...armed conflicts". Thousands of children are entering the Irish education system who may have experienced significant trauma, and extensive consideration needs to be given to facilitating psychological recovery. Children with family in Ukraine and Russia may also be experiencing significant distress relating to the ongoing conflict. We welcome work by NEPS to support schools, including developing guidance. However, the complex needs of these children are unlikely to be met by existing staff and resources. Guidance should be supported by therapeutic mental health support and services within schools.

In relation to other issues, we believe there are some matters that require further consideration. On special educational needs, we welcome comments in this committee by the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Josepha Madigan, regarding students entering schools with special educational needs, SEN. This includes the involvement of the NCSE in REALT, and work by the Department of Education with the HSE to ensure a joined-up approach.

It is important that language and educational attainment are assessed separately, and schools have adequate resources to support children in both regards in order that children who have special educational needs can be identified and supported. The provision of special educational needs school places cannot keep up with current demand. We are concerned that, with significant numbers of children from Ukraine entering Irish schools, there will be an increasing gap between available provision and provision needed.

Finally on school transport, it is important to note that Ukrainian children may, in some cases, be housed in accommodation from which it is difficult to access the nearest school or local community. This potentially creates a barrier to accessing education. We would like to understand the status of the grant scheme proposed by the Department of Education to cover school transport costs for children in these circumstances.

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet today and I am happy to take any questions.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

Good morning everyone. I am the assistant director of children's services in Barnardos in the north of Dublin. I am delighted to be here today. Barnardos provides front-line services to children and their families. We work with children and families who have been affected by traumatic life situations such as poverty, abuse, mental health challenges, neglect, separation, bereavement and parental addiction. We offer a range of early intervention and targeted services in our 45 locations across the country and we work in homes, family homes, schools, early learning and care settings and in the wider community.

Since the first Ukrainian families began arriving into Ireland, Barnardos has been identifying opportunities to provide support and lend expertise wherever it is likely to be of direct benefit to these families or to the agencies working directly with them. This has included proactively exploring how best to respond to the immediate and longer term needs of Ukrainian children and parents arriving into Ireland by liaising with colleagues in Tusla and those within the children and young people's services committee. We also reach out to hotels and other facilities where large numbers of Ukrainian refugees are being housed to offer our Breath Body Mind programme. This programme has been shown to be particularly helpful for those who have experienced trauma. The programme specialises in releasing the impact of trauma from the body. We also advise schools on how to support the well-being of children by supporting them to feel they are in a place of safety which will allow children to regulate their emotions, learn, and make friends. It is only when children have a balanced nervous system that they are able to engage positively, learn, and make friends with their peers.

There is a focus on the importance of minimising sensory triggers in schools, supporting a predictable routine, and supporting children with language barriers. Working with Ukrainian refugees in Dublin Airport and City West assessment centres, Barnardos is developing training with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Our bereavement service is providing training to hotel staff housing Ukrainian families who have been bereaved. We also hold webinars with guidance for early years educators to support children from Ukraine, and provide resources for there early years educators.

Focusing on psychological supports, many Ukrainians who have come to Ireland over the past few months have faced considerable trauma. This trauma includes fleeing war; death of a family member or parent; being forced to leave their homes and their families homes suddenly; enduring a challenging journey; and entering a new country without speaking the language. It is important that agencies working with these children, be it for housing, health or education, take into account the trauma they have been through and consider this when designing the help they intend to provide. As children and families settle in Ireland and the immediate requirements such as housing are met, adequate attention should be given to wider needs, such as psychological well-being. Schools should adopt a strengths-based approach to Ukrainian children, with a trauma-informed lens. The children have experienced huge disruption to their lives. They may be more sensitive and alert to their surroundings and less tolerant to sudden changes. From our experience, children who have gone through considerable disruption and have been without a routine for some time can find it difficult to adapt to new rules and regulations. Where schools identify children who are particularly struggling, they should be able to refer them to family support agencies, such as Barnardos.

We can work with families and schools to provide them with the support needed to address school refusal or behavioural problems and build structure and routines again, helping children to find it easier to integrate into schools and to adapt to their rules and systems.

Schools should consider what it is like for Ukrainian children from the moment they connect with the school, including when they are in class, and think about how they can make it easier for them to adjust and how the schools can make it a more straightforward process for getting into school, getting through the process and getting used to a new routine and being made feel welcome. This extends to the school environment – the layout of the classroom and school, where is the child going to sit and who will sit beside the child - and helping children to be aware of this information before they get there. We urge the Government to help schools provide a strengths-based approach and that training be provided for schools so that all services working with these families can provide compassionate and considered supports that take into account all the trauma they have experienced.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it. I will speak on the further and higher education element of the committee's remit. I will begin with a little information on what the Irish Refugee Council does. Removing barriers to access to further and higher education is one of our key pillars. In recent years, there has been considerable impact and success and State-driven changes to broaden access to further and higher education, which we strongly welcome. We also administer an education fund each year, which is just about to open. Ukrainian refugees will be eligible to apply to it. That is supported by independent donations and in the last year we supported more than 500 people - refugees, protection applicants and Ukrainian refugees - who had inquiries about further and higher education.

I take this opportunity to emphasise to the committee that we believe that in addressing the needs of people from Ukraine in accessing education, be they children or adults, the State has a unique opportunity to remove barriers facing all refugees and international protection applicants. Maintaining a focus on equality of access will be crucial to ensuring we do not, either intentionally or unintentionally, create a tiered system of education access. In the context of children, we reiterate that we must cherish all children equally.

Our recommendations are broken down into three categories. I will begin by speaking about education for children and make one point on that. It is to draw attention again to the necessity for equal allocation of resources. I refer to the report yesterday by Emma O'Kelly of RTÉ and primary school teachers flagging the issue of English language supports being given to Ukrainian children and not to other children from a protection-seeking background. We must level up, not level down.

In terms of our recommendations regarding Ukrainian refugees and all refugees, the first category is the administration of support schemes. The Irish Timesreported in mid-May that Ukrainian college students were to get grants and free education. We strongly recommend that all refugees and protection applicants would be eligible for this. This is something we have advocated frequently to the Department and to other stakeholders. That would require a change to the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, scheme, the free fees initiative and the student support scheme whereby refugees and all people seeking protection would be eligible.

The second recommendation relates to the timing of various supports. This includes, for example, the Central Applications Office, CAO. I understand the opportunity to apply has passed. If students are going to access further and higher education in September 2022, there might have to be a mechanism that allows people to apply to get into university at that date. In addition, both the back to education allowance, BTEA, and the voluntary training opportunity scheme, VTOS, require a period of receiving social welfare. For the BTEA it is three to nine months and for VTOS it is six months. We recommend that if people on temporary protection are going to be eligible to receive those supports, the three-month and six-month requirements be waived.

We also have recommendations on ensuring that third country nationals who have fled Ukraine would be eligible for education opportunities. This is a much smaller proportion of the total number of Ukrainian refugees in Ireland, but they cannot be forgotten. Work will also have to be done on the recognition of prior learning - we have a report on this - and particularly the recognition of healthcare qualifications. Our report will be launched later in July. Work will have to be done on ensuring that adults have access to English language supports. Education and training boards are doing strong work there, but there will need to be a recognition of proper resourcing, particularly in areas where many refugees are living.

To conclude, we believe this is a great opportunity to support not only refugees from Ukraine but also all refugees and people seeking protection.

Ms Kathleen Moran:

The Library Association of Ireland school libraries group thanks the committee for inviting us to this discussion on educational supports provision for displaced Ukrainian students. As outlined in our original submission to the committee last month, we believe school libraries have an integral role to play in providing a wide range of curriculum, language, emotional, well-being, psychological and other supports to Ukrainian and other displaced students.

A school library is a dedicated space in a school managed by a professional school librarian where all students can feel welcome, learn and grow. Libraries give students access to supports and resources they otherwise would not have in school and they offer a sanctuary to all students, especially those who may be living in cramped or overcrowded conditions. Students can gather within the library space both within and beyond the school day not only to learn and cultivate their ideas but also to relax, re-gather their emotions and connect with each other. School librarians are not constrained by the demands of the curriculum and are therefore perfectly placed to quickly transition their supports and services to meet the particular needs of any student cohort at any point in time.

However, only 30 schools in Ireland have publicly-funded school libraries stocked by professional librarians. These are all part of the junior certificate school programme, JCSP, Demonstration Library Project and all operate in second level delivering equality of education in schools, DEIS, schools. Several hundred Ukrainian students have joined these 30 schools over the past few months and our JCSP librarians have already introduced a wide range of tailored literacy, reading and well-being support programmes, including multilingual welcome packs, books, dictionaries and other resources in students' own languages, support materials across all subject areas and much more. Many of our librarians are opening their libraries in the early morning to facilitate students to attend early morning online Ukrainian school classes using library devices and computers, a very important support for the many students wishing to continue their Ukrainian education. Ukrainian students have been integrated into the wide range of extra-curricular library clubs and societies, and our librarians have organised a range of arts and cultural trips for these students to help them to integrate into Irish society.

Supports to wider family members include parents book clubs, facilitating loans, both physical and virtual, to parents and younger siblings, block loans of book collections at local accommodation hubs and so forth. These supports will continue over the summer months in the form of library summer camps, ongoing library book club meetings, ongoing access to the JCSP libraries' digital library service and introducing students to local youth groups to ensure their continued engagement and entertainment over the summer months. Plans are already in place for a number of cross-school JCSP library events and initiatives to support Ukrainian students in the coming year, including themed cross-school Narrative 4 story exchange sessions. All our JCSP librarians are trained Narrative 4 empathy education facilitators. Cross-school chess tournaments, bilingual creative writing, book clubs, pen pals and other initiatives are also planned.

The JCSP digital library service currently provides access to over 42,000 e-books and e-audio books to all students and staff in second level DEIS schools. The collection includes over 600 titles across 26 different languages, including Ukrainian and Russian. We are currently working with our platform providers and with Post-Primary Languages Ireland, PPLI, to increase significantly the number of Ukrainian, Russian and bilingual titles available to students. A collection of over 400 digital magazine titles has also been added which will be available for simultaneous borrowing by all students. Access to this digital collection is of immense value to our Ukrainian students and we strongly believe that all second level schools and Youthreach centres should be provided with immediate access for all their students.

The school libraries group acknowledges the committee's recognition of the vital importance of school libraries and school librarians in its recent report on leaving certificate reform and we thank the committee for it. The committee's recommendations in that report are equally, if not more, applicable to the subject of supports for Ukrainian and other displaced students. We firmly believe that all students, not just those in 30 schools, should have access to a bright, vibrant, well-stocked school library space and to the knowledge and skills of a professional school librarian and that all should have access to a bespoke, professionally curated school digital library service. We recommend that a national advisory group on school library provision be set up immediately with the key aim of planning for the implementation of this committee's recent recommendation that there be a school library, a school librarian and fully access to a digital library service in all primary and post-primary schools in Ireland. As an immediate measure, the further expansion of the junior certificate school programme, JCSP, demonstration library project to further DEIS schools and the extension of access to the JCSP digital library service to all second level schools and Youthreach centres should be in place for the start of the 2022-2023 school year. This could be achieved quite easily and it would be of immense value to Ukrainian and, indeed, all students. Now is the time to act on putting these provisions in place. The members of the school libraries group and the JCSP library project will gladly make ourselves available over the summer months to assist with their implementation. I thank the committee for listening to my statement. I am happy to answer any questions members may have.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire has deferred his questions. He will come back in later and, when he does, I will call on him as the next questioner.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses for their presentations. I was reading their statements last night and this morning and it is worth noting the invaluable work they do all year round and the invaluable service they provide for children and for those on the margins. It should not be just in times of crisis that we acknowledge their work. The Ministers came before the committee two weeks ago, when we held two 45-minute sessions. I will make some comments with regard to what we raised with the Ministers. If any particular person wants to respond, that is fine. I do not want to put anybody on the spot.

There were three main issues. One was the issue of displacement. Teething problems have come to my notice. Of course, there will be such problems in light of the number of Ukrainian refugees and families who have arrived in Ireland but we have seen situations in which children have settled into a school environment and the uniform has been bought. These children may have seen and heard very traumatic things, they may be worried about family members and, of course, they face the language issue. I am given to understand that they can then, with very little notice, be moved from point A to point B, with point B being in a very rural setting. I do not know if the witnesses wish to comment on how that is being managed and communicated to the education system.

On a second issue, children with special educational needs may be more integrated or knitted into a school setting because their needs are being met in that school. Is the system too rigid to accommodate that? The Minister recognised what I was saying about that having an even bigger impact on a family but I was not convinced that there was sufficient fluidity in the system to allow for that level of education for such young people to be maintained, notwithstanding the difficulties with accommodation.

Reference has been made to the last point I wish to make. A situation like this is going to expose some of the frailties and fault lines in provision for children. That is good. We should never waste a good crisis. If this exposes existing problems within the system as regards education provision and the supports we provide for children, we should rise to that challenge. However, it has been said and is demonstrably true that there is a dichotomy between what is now being afforded to Ukrainian children and what is being afforded to children already within the protection system. I agree with Mr. Henderson's point that it should not be the case that we treat Ukrainian children in the way children already in the system are being treated. If we can provide a greater level of language support for Ukrainian children, then all children should benefit from that higher level of support. I would not want it to be said of the Irish system that is has one attitude towards - let us be blunt - white Christians on the edge of Europe and another towards those who are not white Christians and not from the edge of Europe. That is an uncomfortable sentence to have to utter but if that is the underlying suspicion within the Irish education system and among practitioners, it is a very troubling one. I have experience of being a Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality and I must say that I did not come away feeling that the Department was fit to deal with this entire area. I was extremely welcoming of the move by the current Government to take a lot of this responsibility away from that Department and to give it to the new Department under the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. That was a very positive move showing a much more humane mindset.

Those are my points. I mentioned the continuum of education for all children, how it can be managed and the displacement element. I also mentioned children with special educational needs and how that issue needs to be properly recognised. My third point was on the exposure of the dichotomy or split in the system between what Ukrainian children and young people are being afforded with regard to language supports and what is being afforded to those already in the system. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on that and on how it should be addressed. I am interested in what any of the witnesses have to say.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I ask that we stick to the Ukrainian issue. I know the Deputy is broadening to touch on other issues but I want to stick to the Ukrainian issue.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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I believe it is relevant.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. We can hold another meeting to have a broader debate but I do not want to lose our focus on today's point.

Ms Kathleen Moran:

With regard to school library provision, school libraries can target their supports at any particular group at any particular time, as I have said. In our field, anything that is introduced to benefit a particular group benefits everybody in that all services provided through a school library are provided for the whole school. There may be a focus on a particular group at a particular point in time. We have put in particular supports for Ukrainian students but those supports, whether investment in resources or anything else, are there for the benefit of everybody in the school. They can be targeted but whatever is introduced benefits everybody.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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Does the representative of Barnardos want to make reference to the displacement issue? Perhaps Mr. Henderson would like to make reference to his earlier comment on levelling up.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

From the perspective of Barnardos, the Deputy touched on a very important topic. It is something that can have a significant impact on children, especially children who have experienced trauma. I refer to a sudden change without information, without choice and without control. The impact of trauma we see children experiencing is such that they are constantly scanning their environment for threats, constantly uncertain as to what is going to happen next and constantly in a state of high arousal, which has an impact on their physical well-being, their behaviour, their interaction with peers and their relationships with others. They will also bounce off of their parents' high arousal when they also are not aware of what is happening next.

I can refer to a situation in Dublin. We were reaching out to a group that was housed in one of our regions. We were trying to provide our Breath Body Mind programme. We had developed this programme but up to 150 people were then moved quite suddenly within a day or two. We see the impact of that. Children who have experienced trauma need safety, security, certainty and stability. They need to know what is happening next and they need to be made aware of it before it happens. When you are in a traumatic situation, control and choice are very important to you. They help you to overcome the sense of powerlessness that comes with trauma. From the point of view of Barnardos, early information, certainty, security, safety, knowing what is going to happen next and being made aware at the first point of contact what is happening today and what is likely to happen next week and in a few weeks is an absolutely necessity for these children. Sudden changes, such as being taken out of a school before being taken to another centre and going to another school, retraumatise and retrigger children.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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That was my experience. We can appreciate that moving to temporary accommodation to more permanent accommodation is preferable, but at issue is the overnight element.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

Yes.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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The lack of information for schools was not great either.

Does Mr. Henderson wish to respond further on the levelling up issue?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I do not have much more to add and I am conscious of what the Chairman said. This is an opportunity to level up for all and, if we are going to make changes, to make them for everyone who is seeking protection. I have been clear on this point and do not want to labour it too much.

Regarding the Deputy's first point, and as my colleague stated, good communication can mitigate some of the anguish that a short notice removal can create. If children and their parents who are in a temporary accommodation space will be moving to medium or longer term accommodation at a future date, and if the children are in school and will have to leave that school and go to a different one in future, telling them may mitigate some of the anguish that this will create.

I will make two additional points. I hate to say it, but this phenomenon is not new to us as an organisation in the context of direct provision. It happens frequently. It will always exist, particularly if we are not getting on top of accommodation issues. As has been evident over recent days, there are real and challenging issues with the provision of accommodation. Short notice movements are a symptom of the State always looking for accommodation because there is a shortage.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I am concerned about an issue that I have raised directly with the Minister, namely, the carrying out of an assessment of the impact that the large number of students entering our education system will have. Some assessment should have been done in order to plan adequately and be prepared for the unprecedented situation we are now facing. An assessment would have been key. What are the witnesses’ thoughts on this point?

I have been contacted by many schools that have not been consulted or collaborated with by the Department of Education. It appears that there are gaps that need to be addressed and that there should be more collaboration. Have the witnesses discovered the same? I am sure they have.

There are already large gaps in special education provision. In County Offaly where I am from, we have no special educational needs organiser, SENO. For the Ukrainian children who have come to County Offaly, there is no SENO. The gaps need to be addressed. Are the witnesses’ organisations also encountering this issue of there being no one in place to deal with a situation or allocate the resources that children fleeing war need? I imagine that it is an issue across the country and not just in my county.

I would like to hear the witnesses’ thoughts on the need for an assessment. It is not too late to carry one out. We should be conducting one. The wait-and-see approach could cause problems and we do not want one crisis unintentionally creating another.

Ms Meg Ryan:

Regarding the impact of the large volume of students, let us just speak about the range of Ukrainians who have been placed in Dublin where there is already a large volume of enrolments and a large number of schools that have substantial waiting lists for Irish students, with priority given to legacy students or students with other connections. Among my clients, I have parents who have approached multiple schools – sometimes upwards of 15 – seeking spaces for their children in secondary education but who have been told that they have to adapt within, that is, the children will either have to repeat a year or go into a year with a different age group that is inappropriate for them. My clients are experiencing significant issues with certain years, in particular first year. No provision is being made to adapt to this situation. There are children of this age who need to be placed in schools, but there are schools that are restricted in how many students they can have in a class.

Now that we are in the summer period, something could be introduced. For example, exceptions could be implemented that would allow schools to expand their class sizes to accommodate these children. The summer period is a time when actions should be put in place. It is a pause during which case workers, supporters and parents of Ukrainian children can get a chance to find appropriate school placements and a guarantee, which would remove the sense of insecurity for the parents and the children. The same applies to special education access. We are in a window in which the holes can be filled.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

From our perspective, it would be helpful to know what level of training schools will need to manage children who are coming in and may be highly traumatised. From a trauma-informed care perspective, that starts from the second you have your first contact with that child. It is about understanding what has happened to the child, what the child has been through or may be about to go through, and what the child may be experiencing at home. It is a question of training in and understanding trauma behaviours and what they look like. It will not be the same for every child. Some will look like perfectionists and seem to be doing fine but will be withdrawn, frozen and shut down. Others will be aggressive, volatile and easily triggered. It is about helping schools to understand that they might get any number of children at any point on the continuum of trauma. It is about providing training for schools, building capacity, upskilling and supporting them in terms of knowing what to expect and how to support these children when there may be upwards of 30 other children in the class to look after. It is also about training schools in how to talk to children about their experiences and showing the importance of being able to do that. As such, an assessment to see what supports are needed or an understanding that supports in terms of training and upskilling are likely to be necessary would be helpful.

Ms Nuala Ward:

The Office of the Ombudsman for Children shares the Deputy’s concerns about the provision of education to these children, especially children with special educational needs. Our office has been vocal about this matter in recent weeks. Indeed, we will be publishing a report on forward planning in the coming weeks. We know the needs of these children from when they are born and grow into early childhood. We can identify them, so why we cannot plan in advance to meet the needs of children with special education needs is questionable.

It is a fundamental right that children have access to education, so not having school places is of deep concern, especially for children arriving from Ukraine. Education is where they will make their friends, get to know about this new country that they have arrived in and learn the language. It is critical for their recovery that they have school places.

I agree with my colleague that this is a pause. There is a crisis, but this is a time to gather information on what has worked and what has not worked and to implement a new process for the new academic year in September.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

If I may, I will make a general point regarding something that we have recommended along with the Ukraine Civil Society Forum, a group comprising more than 60 organisations that have come together to work on a response. We have said that there needs to be a greater focus on planning, logistics, co-ordination and medium- and long-term preparation of accommodation and education. This could entail a director of Ukraine response, given that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is under significant strain and the Department of Education has a wide and busy brief. A director of Ukraine response would not mitigate all of these issues but could help to co-ordinate, plan, ensure better national to local co-ordination and bring together central government.

What we are discussing at this meeting is symptomatic of the fact that Ireland has given a strong welcome to refugees from Ukraine, for which we commend it strongly.

It is exceptional in many ways. A short-term humanitarian emergency response must be matched with a long-term planning methodology, however, which is probably missing at the moment.

Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them very much for their comprehensive overviews. I listened very attentively and a large part of what they are talking about is access to more therapeutic mental health services, more urgent assessments and English language supports. We would expect many of those services in schools in any case but that all needs to be stepped up. Obviously, it is a job for the Department of Education to quantify that. Do the witnesses have an idea of the quantities we might be missing at the moment to support the numbers of children that are coming in?

Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned that he felt it was correct for this to fall under the remit of the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I certainly think that is true. I take the point Mr. Henderson mentioned, however, which is that we now require long-term planning and it falls to other Departments to do that. Part of that is accommodation. Nobody wants to move children from one place to another but we need to ensure that parents have access to jobs and accommodation. That is the reason it is done. It is weighing up what is in the best interest of the children overall and putting in the supports. The witnesses might comment on what might be needed in a long-term plan from other Departments outside of that integration piece.

It is also important to recognise the really positive contribution Ukrainian people are making in the lives of Irish people. My daughter and her best friend, who is Moldovan, were asked to do a passion project in their school and their passion project was Ukraine. It really has captured children's imaginations. That is also a really unique opportunity for us that will have long-term benefits if we all get this right and live in harmony with each other.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Whoever wishes to reply first may do so.

Ms Meg Ryan:

On the piece in terms of supports for integration, I would just echo what I already said that when it comes to language supports to help a child to fully integrate, that language support should also be extended to the parents because it also removes responsibility where we have some families where a child may have more English than his or her parent. It allows the relationship to level back so that the parent is not dependent on the child to provide translation for things that are beyond his or her responsibility. It is, therefore, about extending these supports and recognising that supporting children often needs to extend to supporting their extended family as well, particularly around help for integration and access to work and jobs. Expanding that access is important.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I will comment briefly on the Senator's first two points if that is okay. I cannot give information on the size of the gaps, if you like, in terms of the specifics. However, I would say that it is really important to think about service provision or support provision in terms of both a micro and macro perspective. Teachers in a school who notice that a child is struggling should be able to have a service to which they can refer that child directly for his or her own bespoke support.

Additionally, in terms of scope from the macro perspective, teachers should be able to assume there will be support for them in terms of upskilling and learning to provide to the whole classroom and whole group of potentially Ukrainian children who may in turn require support. Then, in individual schools, there will be an element of support that is necessary, like my colleague, Ms Ward, spoke about, in terms of therapeutic support within the school with which children can be supported. There are layers of support and meeting all those layers would be a very helpful process with which to start.

In terms of the movement of children, I completely agree that nobody intends to suddenly move children. There is always a reason for it; there is a purpose. As my colleague, Mr. Henderson, and I said, the important thing here is the "How". It is the time to plan. There should be an understanding that this is not the place a child will be forever; it is a place where he or she will be for now. Then, when it comes time to be in the next place, this is what that will look like. It is setting the path and the journey for children in a way they understand it so they know what they are doing and that while they are in one place, they have what they need at that time. They have the stimulation support and all their basic needs while they are there, as do their families, but they know what is coming next.

Ms Nuala Ward:

I wish to comment in regard to the intergovernmental and interdepartmental response. I completely agree. We believe that we need to stop viewing this in terms of the pathway to protection. This is a human rights and children's rights approach. We have international obligations in that regard and, therefore, one Department cannot fix everything. It must be an all-of-government response. We all spoke about the pressures with regard to accommodation. Children need a secure home to start to recover, go to school, have a base and feel secure. Of course, that cannot be fixed by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That needs to have the local authorities and Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage sitting at the table. It is the same with the Department of Education and Department of Health. It has to be an all-of-government response to meet the needs of these children. It cannot be left with one person; it just will not work.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I do not have an immediate answer to the Senator's first question but I suppose it is about getting the building blocks in place. Do we have the data yet as to where people are? Do we have a mapping of the services? Do we know what existing services need in addition to what they are already doing, bearing in mind that many servicers are already quite exhausted? Are we able to do needs assessments for the children themselves? I do not think we are at that stage. As colleagues said, with two and a half months to go until the start of the new school term, there is an opportunity to try to put those things in place but it would be quite a substantial piece of work. It is essential, however, if we are going to start September with a more organised system in place.

Ms Kathleen Moran:

Briefly, from our point of view, we probably deal with students at the individual level rather than from the top down. One of the things we have seen is that many of those who have come in have been placed in transition year if they are aged 15 or more. Some would be more advanced than that. Our librarians have often reported that students have particular aspirations for their careers. They may want to be an engineer, architect or whatever and they are planning they subjects they will need when they move into fifth or sixth year next year. However, the sudden movement of a student then to another school where those subjects may not be available does not seem to be taken into account in terms of their individual needs. It is accommodation over everything else. It is extremely traumatic for those students that they are not necessarily assessed for where they see themselves progressing in the education system and their careers in the future. Many of them are very focused on where they want to be. It needs to be taken into account that we are putting them somewhere and then taking the ground from under them again when we move them to somewhere those aspirations cannot be met.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Jim O'Callaghan then we will go back to Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the guests for appearing before the committee this morning and for the excellent work they have done in assisting and facilitating the Irish Government in its response to this crisis. It is important at the outset to acknowledge the generous response of the Government and, more importantly, the generous response of the Irish public.

My assessment is that this generosity is due to the fact that this is a unique event, certainly in this century. It has resulted in the invocation of the Temporary Protection Directive that was introduced in 2001, something that has not happened before. At the outset, I want to say I think that is the reason why there has been such a response to this event.

I will start by asking Ms Ryan about the role that is played by the Irish Red Cross. I know it is slightly off the topic but it does relate to a point Ms Ward mentioned earlier about secure accommodation for children.

I have met people recently who have registered with the Red Cross; they filled out the application forms but have not heard anything back. Is there a reason for the delay in terms of getting Ukrainian families fixed up with Irish homes that want to take them?

Ms Meg Ryan:

As I mentioned in my statement, I am speaking today from a caseworker perspective, so I am not speaking on behalf of the management of the Red Cross. I can tell the Deputy that in regard to the role of the caseworker in matching and placing families in accommodation, our priority from the outset of this war has been to place families with high needs, be it medical needs, risk of retraumatisation or an additional reason, perhaps due to highly unsuitable accommodation options or to the nature of the families we have been assigned. Our priority has been focused on vacant properties where a family has their own door, their own kitchen, their own space, their own areas and their own time to breathe and to settle in. Our priority, working in collaboration with other organisations and other partners, has been placing families into vacant accommodation while working in the background on shared accommodation options. There may be issues around vetting and processes that simply take time, but they are necessary processes to ensure the safety of the individuals being placed.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Ryan thinks it is appropriate and there is not undue delay in terms of trying to fix up families with Irish homes, and that it is a necessary part of the vetting process.

Ms Meg Ryan:

We have been placing families in shared accommodation and it is just that the prioritisation has been faster opportunities and vacant options. Also, when we are talking about these offerings, quite often a pledge of a vacant property is an offer of a minimum of one year and most of the shared accommodation offers begin at six months. Again, it is about trying to prioritise sustainability for families with high needs but we have been placing people into shared accommodation as well.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Ward mentioned in her statement that a number of unaccompanied minors have arrived in Ireland from Ukraine, which is obviously an issue of great concern to all of us. Is she satisfied they are being cared for adequately? Can she give us an update as to how that is progressing for those unaccompanied minors?

Ms Nuala Ward:

That question is timely. We have written to and are due to meet Tusla - the Child and Family Agency, which has responsibility for these children. We had flagged in recent years that we had concerns in regard to unaccompanied minors arriving into Ireland. In particular, as members may be aware, they come into State care but when they turn 18 and if they are not still in education, the vast majority transfer into the direct provision system. We had very serious concerns about that. We also had concerns about vulnerability assessments which are required to be done for unaccompanied minors under the recast directive, and we had raised that with Tusla previously in recent years.

Our meeting on Thursday is about a range of issues, including the issue raised by the Deputy. We want to be assured. We want to know we are meeting all of our international obligations towards these children. We also want to be assured they are safe, that they are being looked after and that they are being accommodated in places that are subject to inspection and regulation, like any other child arriving into Ireland without a guardian or parent, or, indeed, children coming into State care. That is what we are meeting about on Thursday. We are looking forward to the meeting and we are hoping that, afterwards, we will be able to answer very comprehensively that we are meeting our obligations and looking after these children appropriately.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I notice that Ms Ward's statement refers to an assessment of children with significant learning difficulties. Is that a much more difficult task in terms of the language difficulties that exist, with children coming here who may not have the capacity speak English?

Ms Nuala Ward:

That is exactly what we are seeing. It is very important, when we consider meeting the educational needs of children, that we assess not only their academic abilities but also their fluency in English. There are two separate processes and there is a very real risk they may become overlapped, and that if children do not have fluency in English, that may be seen within the context of their academic ability. We are very clear that these are two separate processes so children get both of their needs met.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Carroll in her statement referred to the difficulties that early years educators have in supporting children from Ukraine, and Barnardos is having webinars in this regard. What issues is Barnardos confronting and trying to resolve in order to update early years educators as to what support they need?

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

The challenge for any setting that children are coming into is the variety of needs the children may have, whether that is the additional needs that Ms Ward has spoken about, or traumatised children coming from situations that have been very unsettling for them and their parents. Our webinars and supports are around the trauma-informed care perspective, what to expect, how to set up an environment that can work towards balancing children's nervous systems, how to approach children who may respond differently, and how to recognise different behaviours that may indicate there are additional needs for that child or may indicate there is trauma behaviour. It may be parental support that is required for these children or it may be about supporting early years settings, in particular, in these webinars, to help to communicate with parents about how to support their children with the needs they have, whatever they may be presenting with. It is also about looking at availability of services in the area and how they can understand what is happening for that child in order to integrate that child into their service and provide support for that child and their parent.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Henderson referred to how the Irish Refugee Council is going to concentrate on further and higher education. I am conscious that the European Commission back in March or April made a recommendation about the recognition of professional and academic qualifications. Is enough being done in Ireland to facilitate Ukrainian people who have come with qualifications so those qualifications can be recognised? I am conscious that Ms Ryan mentioned something about that in terms of healthcare workers.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I do not have a great read on that, to be honest. We are producing a report in July, not just on Ukrainian refugees, but on access to all persons from outside the European Union having their healthcare qualifications recognised. It may be that the nursing profession is putting in place some changes in that regard but I do not have a significant read on it. It is something we will be publishing on in July.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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An interesting point mentioned by Ms Moran is that some of the libraries are opening early to enable Ukrainian children to continue remotely with their education in Ukraine. At some stage, is that going to have to terminate? I can understand the benefit of it but, as time goes on, could it become confusing for children?

Ms Kathleen Moran:

I suppose they came here not knowing how long they would be here. Integration into the Irish education system is hugely important but the hope on arrival is that they will be returning home. Certainly, for those who are at a later stage in their education and who would be leading up to exams equivalent to our leaving certificate, Ukrainian teachers are providing online education to their students. Sometimes the teachers are still in Ukraine or they may be in another country, but the students dial in and follow that. It is very difficult for them because they start at 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. and that is followed by a full day in the Irish education system and then back to a sports hall or wherever they may be living oftentimes. It is very traumatic for them and we have to acknowledge and respect them for the efforts they are putting in. If the situation of living in Ireland becomes long term, I would say that will probably phase out for those children or there will be the introduction within Ireland of specific supports in the education system for them.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I apologise that I had to leave after the opening statements for a media event. I agree with Deputy Jim O'Callaghan that the response of the Irish people has been remarkable. The response from school communities and the schools involved has also been very significant and, by and large, the effort from the education and training boards, ETBs, and the REALTs has been significant.

My first question is addressed to Ms Ryan and I raised a similar point with the Minister, Deputy Harris, a fortnight ago. The point is in regard to non-Ukrainian refugees. Of course, we need to be doing everything we can to support Ukrainian refugees, but I am concerned. I instanced an example which provoked me to think about this a bit more myself. I was visiting Mount Sion school in Waterford and I happened to ask if any Ukrainians had arrived there.

The principal explained to me that he had been ten minutes late because he was introducing two Afghani children to the school. The challenges and trauma that those children face are not in the slightest bit lesser than those of Ukrainian children. I was asking about access to SUSI in that context. I am concerned about supports needed, such as for English as an additional language.

I will put these questions to everyone. We have heard occasional and, I hope, isolated stories of children settling in a school and then being moved on to another area. There was one example of a child from somewhere in Dublin being moved to Youghal in County Cork. Is that still happening? Is it still the case? Is that widespread? First, it is very disruptive and second, it calls for schools to show leniency when it comes to uniforms, books and such, if there will be volatility in terms of placements and so on.

My sense of the REALT teams, at least in terms of my own area, is that they are doing, by and large, reasonably well and that they are working hard. Obviously, it is a very fluid situation but they are trying to manage as well as they can. I ask everyone what their experience is of the REALT teams. Are they satisfied the teams are working efficiently? What else do they need?

I am especially concerned about a few categories in terms of Ukrainian children and refugee children generally. One of my concerns is for those who have suffered severe trauma and another is for those with special educational needs. Another category of children about which I am concerned is that of children who are midway through, or towards the end of, post-primary school and are landing with more or less no English. They may have time to catch up at an earlier stage in the school system, but if children are in third, fourth, fifth or sixth year and are landing into a school with pretty much no English, they could find themselves very isolated and in a very difficult situation. I know there are efforts to try to align some of the children with the Ukrainian education system, but it is potentially a very challenging scenario. I ask Mr. Henderson to start.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

In terms of a timeline, The Irish Timesreported in mid-May that the Department was considering giving Ukrainian students access to SUSI and providing that they would not have to pay international fees and would be eligible for State grants. We warmly welcomed this, but in a follow-up letter to the Minister on 23 May, we said it should be considered for all people. The Minister's assistant came back to us to say our letter was under consideration. We asked to meet with the Minister. We hope that will happen in due course because this is an opportunity to make wider changes. It is a matter of equality and it is something for which we have advocated for many years. I do not think the numbers are that large, which should be borne in mind. That relates to SUSI, in particular.

Ms Meg Ryan:

With regard to the question of children who have settled, begun in a school and then have been relocated to another area, that is definitely still happening. Whether the child or family is being supported by a Department or an NGO, the nature of the accommodation options and the fact that many of the hubs are focused in specific areas where accommodation options are limited means that quite a large volume of children are being moved. I can speak from the caseworker perspective in that when we are moving a family from temporary international protection accommodation services, IPAS, accommodation, such as Citywest Hotel, we engage with the parents about the area to which they are moving. We engage with them about what kind of house or property they will be moving to and the school options available within the area. We then work with the parents to make sure that the child has access and that the correct connections are being made but it most certainly is happening that children are settling and then moving. We are finding issues with our clients, whereby children have uniforms for a school into which they have settled for one or two months and they are now faced with finding school supplies, new books and curriculum activities and a new path to school and uniform. Provision of supports is needed to help people with these integrations and transitions to make them as smooth as possible.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does anyone else want to respond to any points?

Ms Kathleen Moran:

One of the services we offer is access to a digital library service. I mentioned it in our statement. At present, all students and staff in DEIS schools have access. We have recommended and the committee has supported the extension of that service to at least all second level schools and Youthreach centres. There has been considerable demand for that, especially during Covid when people could not access physical materials. We see that students in our schools, including Ukrainian students, use the facilities and the resources in the digital library for language development that we provide. We are adding significantly, with the help of Post-Primary Languages Ireland, to the collection that is available in that library. Again, if students are moved from one of our DEIS schools into a non-DEIS school, suddenly their access is cut and they no longer have access to that resource. We very much encourage the committee to support the extension. It could be quite easily done and it would not cost much to give access to that resource to all schools in the country. It could be done for September quite easily.

Ms Nuala Ward:

We absolutely believe that English additional language supports should be adequately resourced, but we are concerned that children become the conduit for speaking on behalf of their parents. There has to be additional support for parents to learn English. I know the ETBs, as Mr. Henderson referenced, are doing considerable work in regional areas. However, that should be supplemented with interpreter services in order that parents can make informed decisions and choices about their children's education. A couple of years ago, we did a consultation with children living in direct provision. While I know we are speaking about Ukrainian children, the children living in direct provision spoke to us about their experiences of our education system in schools. What they told us was that they would like for there to be greater intercultural awareness and training for teachers in order that teachers have a greater insight into where children are coming from. That would help them to integrate into the school community. It would be very helpful if that could be brought beyond English-language support even though, of course, that support is of critical importance for communication.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It was Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's proposal that we have this round of meetings with both the Minister, Deputy Harris, and the Minister, Deputy Foley, last week and a meeting with the witnesses this week. For that reason, I will give Deputy Ó Cathasaigh an extra minute.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will endeavour to fill that minute well. This is the central challenge facing our education system at present. We are talking about 6,000 children arriving and presenting with a very specific, but complex, set of needs. In trying to get my head around it, I was trying to tease through what my central concerns were in terms of providing the most appropriate education that is cognisant of those specific needs. I was trying to think my way through the headings. We have to have an understanding of the children's previous learning. I am not sure that we are doing so but that question is probably more important to the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. The maths curriculum jumps out at me. If a Ukrainian child arrives into third class in an Irish-context school, does that third-class teacher have an understanding of the similar curriculum in Ukraine and of whether the child will have hit long multiplication or decimals at this stage?

Certainly, as a teacher, I would very much like to have that information at my fingertips.

We have spoken about the inherent trauma of dislocation and about NEPS psychologists. However, we must acknowledge that we were at and beyond capacity of provision before there was a Ukrainian crisis. There are specific language needs in the provision of English. I was in the same school on Monday and was talking to Michael Walsh. We must acknowledge that Ukrainian students are getting the support where the Afghan or Syrian students who sit beside them are not. That has to be addressed.

There must be an understanding of the specific context of the Ukrainians who are arriving. We have spoken a lot about mobility. They will first arrive into Citywest and then move to somewhere like Gracedieu in Waterford. As they find their feet in a few months, they will start to make decisions themselves about where in Ireland they want to live. Therefore we must look at three locations where there are immediate, medium-term and long-term solutions.

As far as I can see, there is an absence of a Europe-wide approach. If a child first lands in Poland for a couple of weeks - I will ask Ms Ryan to give a Red Cross, international overview in a second - is there any sort of coherence in the provision in Poland or Moldova by the time they arrive in Ireland?

Mr. Henderson and Ms Moran spoke of the medium-term hope that the conflict will cease and these people will return to where they want to be. The Gaeilge exemption kind of goes to the heart of the matter on this. Are we considering this medium-term to long-term approach? I am very much an advocate of teaching the Irish language within our primary and secondary schools but is it a good use of these children's time? If my child was dislocated and arrived somewhere I would hope that they would have English language and Irish language provision where they arrived. Are we providing Ukrainian language classes for them? Are we providing Russian language classes for those from the east of Ukraine who are most affected by the conflict and comprise a proportionately higher number of Russian speakers?

I am wasting the extra minute that the Chair gave me.

Ms Ryan is a case worker in the Red Cross. We are more than 100 days into the conflict. Have we any sense of the actual population flows in Europe? What pattern is emerging? When these people arrive in Ireland, as I said, there are likely to be immediate, medium-term and long-term responses. Are we beginning to see a pattern where Ukrainian refugees find their feet and self-sort themselves to get where they want to go?

Ms Meg Ryan:

I will respond in reverse. I will speak of my experience and the clients I have interacted with. The system has been put in place in a way that has enabled them to find their feet, having streamlined options for things like medical card support that gives access to healthcare and social welfare, and immediate provision of a PPS number. These are barriers that we find hugely limiting for the other cohorts of refugees for whom we are working who do not have the same access. I understand this meeting is to focus on Ukrainian refugees in Ireland but we cannot ignore the fact that the system to support a Ukrainian refugee is set up in a way that has been streamlined, which is not the experience of people from Afghanistan or Syria who the Red Cross supports through active case work and community sponsorship. It is a very different system and process. We find that our clients from Ukraine are hitting the ground running because options are available, including around language with translation of documents and so on being available, and the willingness to help is there. That is an incredible thing and something the Irish people should be very proud of but it is an example of a model that could be adapted to support everyone. It shows that the system can work and that it can be expanded.

On the long-term question, I find the parents I engage with, once they are in accommodation and their children are in school, are looking for work. They want to actively contribute, settle in and have a normal life. While it is disruptive and the situation is very difficult and unique, the Ukrainian cohort that we work with are hitting the ground running and settling in at a good pace because of the supports that we can now bolster and strengthen. I cannot speak on the figures or numbers relating to support in Poland. The International Committee of the Red Cross provides shelter, medical care, food, hygiene products, water, clothes, and essential humanitarian support. I cannot speak about the volume that will filter through Europe.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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My next questions are for Ms Ward. One might be unfair because it is probably the NCCA which would have to be here to answer this. Is Ms Ward aware of any comparison in curriculums in order that we might identify gaps? Take the example I gave of the maths curriculum.

She said a report from the ombudsman will be forthcoming on forward planning. The NEPs provision was not where it needed to be beforehand. Is there any sort of snapshot of where we need to be to meet the current demand?

Ms Nuala Ward:

The Deputy is correct, I am not the right person to ask about the curriculum. We are constantly scanning what is going on. My understanding is that the Department of Education has produced a guidance note for teachers on the Ukrainian curriculum but I do not know about comparisons. Internationally there are some excellent resources led by the UN but I do not know how much that has filtered down. I imagine if you spoke to teachers they would say there is very little out there but I cannot speak for the teachers. It is really important for outcomes and the children's educational achievements in a few years that we can answer what we have done for them. The Deputy's point about Ukrainian language is really good. I am curious now and I will ask because it is very important. If Irish children were going to another country we would want English and Irish language as well, if possible.

The Ombudsman for Children, Dr. Niall Muldoon has been before the committee to discuss bullying and mental health and this committee made a strong recommendation on expanding the NEPS service to be able to provide therapeutic services to children in schools. I do not know where we are yet. It is a really critical point. Barnardos shares our view. We are passionate on this. We spoke to children in inpatient units around the country some years ago for the report "Take My Hand". All the children said it would be so beneficial if they had counsellors in their schools in a place where they are comfortable and they know they can talk. That is what they want. We have a long way to go to achieve that but we must get there. The report we will publish in a couple of weeks is about forward planning for special educational places for children with special educational needs.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I do not know if I have exhausted the Chair's indulgence.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will give the Deputy a while more.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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This is a final question to everyone. The summer inclusion programme is a huge opportunity to get six weeks or so of very high quality education to a cohort which particularly needs it. I am thinking of English language. It is an opportunity to give a breathing space to parents who will need to find their feet as Ms Ryan outlined. What would the representatives here ideally like to see included in the programme as a specific response to the needs of Ukrainian children?

Ms Nuala Ward:

We think it is a real opportunity. The whole expansion of the summer programme or July provision in recent years to broaden it beyond children with special educational needs is very much to be welcomed. We hear from parents that there is a bit of fun in the programmes and it is not all about education but also a lot of getting to know peers and time spent just enjoying themselves.

I would like to think that would be a core part of it for these children and that as many schools as possible will take it up and provide that programme to all children who fall within the remit of the summer programme.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I do not have much to add other than to say it is a real time for connection, for fun and for children to let their hair down and feel part of something, belong to something, meet new peers and be children during the summer. It is a bit of side topic - and Ms Ryan touched on it - but from a summer perspective, it is really a time to pause and prepare for September as well. It is just an important time.

Ms Kathleen Moran:

Where we have physical libraries and librarians - unfortunately, there are only 30 in the country - we have been running summer programmes in conjunction with the schools completion programme since our organisation was established in 2002. Libraries facilitate activities during the summer for everybody who might be interested. There are lots of fun activities but also learning, reading clubs and chess clubs and so on.

For Ukrainian students who have come in, a number will be specifically opening over the summer to facilitate those students to continue their involvement in existing clubs and activities. They are often living in not very suitable accommodation and they do not have access to general things the youth would have during the summer and often they have not developed relationships. It just provides them with a place to be, which is hugely important, and to meet each other. Families are welcomed in, parents are welcomed in and so on. For the school to continue, through its library, to provide a space for students and their families over the summer months is hugely important. We certainly facilitate that.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

If I may add one point on including the trauma-informed perspective in the summer programme, body-based interventions for trauma-informed care are important to include. That is releasing trauma from the body through breathing, sensory input and also outdoor activities. Allowing children to engage in physical activities in order to reduce the impact of trauma and release trauma from their bodies is an important perspective.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I will begin by saying the best learning can be summer programmes for inclusion and getting to know other students. A tutor said to me one time that the best learning you will ever do when you are on placement is the learning you have over a cup of tea. That was 100% right, so I would not say the summer programmes are not learning, because they are.

On the Irish language, it should be a choice for all refugees if they want to take it as a subject. They may not. People from other countries being left out of that is inequality. We have seen it happen to Travellers time and again. You do not do Irish because you are a Traveller and that can put you at a disadvantage. I wanted to highlight that. Before I forget, I would love a copy of the report Ms Ward mentioned, if that is possible. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, was here two weeks ago. We asked questions and I was told not many people from Ukraine in our schools have disabilities. I would love a copy of the report in order to be able to do some work around access for children with disabilities.

A few years ago, there was a quote that asked who are we to say that a child matters more or less because of the community that child is from. Unfortunately, that is exactly what the Irish State is doing. As a member of the Traveller community, I have seen how Travellers are treated as less and how that can really impact on your life and on the whole community. I welcome the Ukrainian refugees. It is important and very positive going forward.

I genuinely believe we should treat all refugees who enter the country with the same dignity and respect. I worked with the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland and did some voluntary work throughout my ten years of activism. I was also involved with the Irish Refugee Council. I think of the amount of lobbying and campaigning for simple things like the PPS numbers. I can understand how much anger is out there among the refugees. What we are doing is dividing to conquer, whereas what we should be doing as a society is bringing people together. I do not see that in sight for us yet, as a country. Going forward it is about the learning we can implement and what we can do in our country. While it looks like we are really supporting people from Ukraine - that is damn right, and we should be doing it - people are staying in one bedroom or in hotels. They have no access. Again, being a member of the Traveller community, I know how accommodation can have a dramatic impact on your education and your well-being. You are fleeing a war situation and then you end up in a small room and your freedom is genuinely gone. We see that with direct provision as well. We need to tackle accommodation for refugees here. I have not got the answer as to how we are going to do that. Of course, this was not planned, and we will do what we can in order for people to be safe. Nobody is saying otherwise, but earlier I wrote to the Leader of the Seanad to ask when the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, will come to the House for a debate around ending direct provision because it is a year since the White Paper was launched. I am aware that a crisis has come upon us and how we deal with it I do not know; I do not have the answers to that. However, I would like to see us end direct provision for people who are fleeing war in Afghanistan and access to education for people fleeing all wars.

I have questions. I apologise to the Chairman; I will ask them very fast. On trauma and psychological supports, are those supports extended to all refugees? I have spoken many times in this committee and in the Seanad around the digital divide. Have we seen that happening with Ukrainian refugees? Are people getting equal access to digital devices? What kind of software needs to be downloaded for people so they can access education, be it in Ireland or Ukraine?

The most burning issue for me right now is ending direct provision and trying to get people out of hotels as fast as we can and get appropriate accommodation for people. How do we do that?

Turning to Mr. Henderson, it must be very tough for the Irish Refugee Council and the members it works with when they are seeing how one group of people is treated here and how another group is treated. How is the council dealing with that in terms of access as well? As Mr. Henderson said earlier, can we spread that out? Again, we welcome it and it is something I welcome with open arms but how do we spread it out for all people who are fleeing war zones?

I thank everyone so much for coming in. They do brilliant work with all refugees. I really need to credit them all for that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Whomever wishes may go first.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I thank the Senator. To respond to a few or her points, on psychological supports, for protection applicants a person, under EU law now transposed into Irish law, should receive a vulnerability assessment as to their reception needs. There is a vulnerability assessment in place. We have just produced a report on it that we have sent to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. There is a pilot that has been under way for more than a year now. Our report makes reference to it. A Ukrainian refugee, because they are entitled to temporary protection, does not have a legal right to a vulnerability assessment. However, the toolbox, if you like, of the vulnerability assessment could be applied to Ukrainian refugees though, unfortunately, I do not think there is capacity in the existing State services to do that.

We have commented that the vulnerability assessment delivered by the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, in some circumstances can be an empty device, in that the determination given by the assessment does not necessarily have a follow on because of a lack of capacity, resources and so on.

In regard to hotel accommodation, which is an important point, we are here today to talk about education, but where somebody lives is crucial to education. The Ombudsman for Children and the Ombudsman have criticised long-term hotel accommodation for children growing up in homeless accommodation. That has a detrimental effect on children. We know that direct provision has a detrimental effect on children. The Ombudsman's report on direct provision speaks to that so clearly. There are now more than 20,000 Ukrainian refugees in State-provided accommodation, the majority of whom are in hotels. The State's welcome to Ukrainian refugees has been extremely commendable, but I fear that without the implementation of medium- to long-term accommodation considerations, we will be talking in the autumn about them living in hotels for long periods and all the issues that brings. That will be a ball and chain and will hinder children's development in education. Unfortunately, much of it flows back to accommodation. The State's response to Ukrainian refugees compared with people seeking protection is very problematic. That is particularly the case at the beginning, in terms of supports being quickly delivered to one group and not to another group. The long-term accommodation problems will begin to hinder all refugees unless we take quick action.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I am very interested in the Senator's points. Barnardos works with all children who have experienced trauma. We work closely with the Department to provide trauma-informed training and support for those working with children and families in direct provision. We think the same should happen for schools. The challenges for parents, children and families living in hotel accommodation are under-estimated. I have seen families who have been in a hotel room day after day, with the sun splitting the sky, who are not able to spend time in the foyer of the hotel. The hotels are often remote so there is no access to get anywhere else. That impacts on the ability of parents with two, three or four small children to parent and the child's ability to develop is significantly affected. In all cases, what needs to be considered is choice, control, opportunity and hope for such families.

The sudden movement is a challenge for Ukrainian refugees. There are families who are not from Ukraine who may stay in that situation for a very long time. That issue must be considered.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry that I was late. I have a couple of questions. I spent 15 years as a teacher and I am still in touch with quite a few of my former colleagues. I am acutely aware of the difficulties schools are having in terms of resourcing capacity to accommodate refugees. All schools, to be fair, are putting their shoulder to the wheel, and they are getting on with it and making it work as best they can.

I wish to focus on education provision and capacity issues in particular. I am from an area on the north side of Cork city, which heads east towards towns like Carrigtwohill, Midleton and on to Youghal. The vast majority of secondary schools in those areas were already over-subscribed even before Ukrainian refugees became an issue. Are there any other pinch-points across the country where there are significant shortfalls in capacity that the witnesses could identify, be it parts of Dublin or other large urban centres? Where in particular are we struggling to accommodate students?

To be fair to Senator Flynn, she mentioned the special education provision. We are all acutely aware of the issues in that regard. Deputy Ó Laoghaire and I spent three hours at a briefing with the HSE yesterday. A good chunk of that time was spent dealing with issues related to disability provision and therapies, or the lack of them. Even if the refugees have an identified need for speech and language therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy or whatever the case may be, what is the likelihood that they will get to avail of the support, given the pressures we already have?

My third point relates to the Ombudsman's office. Have there been any complaints and, if so, what is the nature of the complaints? What are people saying about the educational provision that is being provided so far? Do the witnesses have any idea how many complaints have been made?

If time allows, I will ask one last question about a student's ability to learn. Ms Ward touched on the impact in terms of students who come from direct provision or emergency accommodation. If she has time, she could elaborate on that as well.

Ms Nuala Ward:

We have very few complaints about the provision of education for Ukrainian students. We have translated our complaints form into Ukrainian. We are going to engage with the NGO sector. We will have a webinar in the coming weeks to promote our office's redress mechanism for people who may have a complaint about any public service or school on the education they receive in Ireland. We hope that will help raise awareness of our office and how we can help.

The only issue that has recently arisen is exactly what has been spoken about earlier, namely, schools being able to access English language supports for children that are not from Ukraine. There are two different systems in place at the moment. That is obviously a serious concern for our office. If a direct provision centre has opened in an area or there has been an increase in the number of children coming from different countries, it is important for schools to be supported. It is not about the pathway to protection. That cannot be the consideration. It must be about the needs of the children. If children need support to develop fluency in English, there can be no discrimination about that. It must be a children's rights issue and assessing the needs of children. Is Deputy O'Sullivan asking about children in direct provision and their access to education?

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The impact on the educational outcomes of children that were in direct provision and emergency accommodation has been documented. Could Ms Ward please elaborate on that?

Ms Nuala Ward:

We have done a lot of work in relation to direct provision so I will not repeat it here. As the Deputy knows, we consult with children living in direct provision and they told us very powerful stories. One of their key asks is that teachers are trained in intercultural awareness and are provided with guidance and supports to understand the different countries and ethnicities the children come from and how they can help them integrate further into the community. That was really powerful.

We also did an investigation, coming up to 12 months ago, where we raised concerns about the safety and welfare of children in direct provision centres. We are pursuing it now with the Department and Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, to see how much progress has been made in that regard. We will publish our update on the investigation and we hope that will shine a light on exactly what the impact has been on all children seeking international protection in Ireland, arising from the Ukraine crisis. I hope we will touch on the education sector as well.

Ms Meg Ryan:

I welcome the comment on the schools being over-subscribed. As I mentioned earlier, something that I am finding with the Ukrainians the Irish Red Cross is supporting, is that a number of students have no access to a school in their area. Parents have contacted upwards of 15 schools looking for places. Certain years, in particular first year, are completely over-subscribed and the waiting list is prioritised for Irish students with legacies or other situations. We must have a system that would allow access to secondary education for children, in particular for first year and fifth year. Children entering into fifth year are trying to think of their future careers and to continue the momentum and the goals they would have had in Ukraine. We must ensure that access is being provided to the Irish education system and that it becomes more robust to allow them to access schools.

On the Deputy's question on the likelihood of getting access to additional support in cases where a need has been identified, it very much depends on the area in which the child has been placed. The caseworkers for the Irish Red Cross are trying to gain access to additional supports for a number of children. It is very much dependent on where the child is placed and the level of advocating that is possible. When another organisation, such as Enable Ireland, is included, sometimes it can create a pathway. However, the likelihood is not a guarantee.

Ms Kathleen Moran:

From our point of view, we are at the ground level, in that the children and students have come into our schools. We transition to support those who are in front of us. The Deputy mentioned accommodation issues and access to study space and so on. We do whatever we can to make available what the individual students in front of us need, whether it is opening in the morning for their Ukrainian classes, or staying open in the evening to provide study space for them because they do not have suitable study spaces in their accommodation. Going back to Senator Flynn's comment on the digital divide, we provide students with digital devices to access their Ukrainian classes. As we did right throughout Covid, we loan digital devices to students who do not have access to them. The value of a school library is that it can provide whatever is required. That can differ from school to school, depending on the cohort that is presented to us.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask one last question and get a one-line answer from each of the witnesses?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, briefly.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Based on what the witnesses have seen so far and the resources that have been supplied by the State, and given that the conflict in Ukraine may get worse, how well prepared is the State for the start of school in September if there is an additional surge in the number of refugees, and particularly young children, arriving in Ireland? I ask for a one-line response from each of the witnesses. Are we prepared or not? Given what has happened so far, are we likely to be able to accommodate further demand?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I do not think we are prepared.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else want to respond?

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I think if the numbers were to increase, we would see a similar repetition of a lot of the challenges that we are experiencing. The summertime is the time to really knuckle down and prepare for that.

Ms Nuala Ward:

I agree with that. Good work is being done, but there is potential to have a lot more in place for September if we knuckle down at this stage.

Ms Meg Ryan:

There is an opportunity for us to be prepared if we act now.

Ms Nuala Ward:

I agree with that. There is an opportunity and we need to take it. If we do not take it, then we will be in serious difficulties.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will ask some questions in the same area as Deputy O'Sullivan. There is huge pressure on school buildings, school places and teachers. Teachers cannot be educated over a two-month period. We cannot build and create school places that we do not have over a two-month period. What is the alternative?

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I completely agree with the Chairman. A long-term plan is required in respect of training, the provision of support for teachers and the delivery of buildings. However, I think the knuckling-down that is required to prepare over the summer months is about the integration of Departments and different levels of supports so that it does not all come down to having to be done in one place, as we said earlier. Everything working as well it can in schools will also be impacted by how it works in the community and voluntary sector, the statutory sector, housing and health. All of those areas are tied together for many of the Ukrainian people coming to Ireland. Integration is key. We must ensure that each piece of the pie, as it were, is supported at this time.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am not racist in any way. These people are in dire need. However, refugees are currently having to sleep in the Red Cow Moran Hotel. The Irish Refugee Council has raised concerns about the accommodation issue, as was reported on the news yesterday. That aside, there will be a similar situation in our schools in September, October and November. I have engaged with schools in my own constituency and they have reported that they do not have the places to take more Ukrainian refugees. They do not have the space in the classrooms or the teacher allocation required to do so. The other children, including the Ukrainian children who are already there, are falling behind because more is expected of the staff. Do we call a halt to it and admit that we have to take a breather for a period of six or seven months because we cannot take any more refugees, and then re-evaluate the situation before taking in more refugees, or do we just continue to take in refugees and give them an education that is not up to standard? Do we just put the children into a classroom so we can say that they are being educated, when they are not being educated to standard? The Government has some very difficult questions to ask itself. The agencies also have to answer some very difficult questions. Do we just continue to take people in and not educate them to a standard, whether in Irish, English or other subjects? The system is creaking at its foundations. We have to ask ourselves some very difficult questions and make some difficult choices. I am interested in hearing the witnesses' perspectives on that.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

There is a lot to say on this issue. I think there is a critical problem in that the Government's humanitarian response was very commendable at the beginning, but it has not been matched with a medium- to long-term plan. We have twice recommended to the Taoiseach and various Government Departments directly that the post of Ukraine response director should be created, and that there should be a national action plan on Ukraine containing various pillars, including education. We produced a policy paper on 7 April 2022 that discussed medium- and long-term housing options. Nearly two months have passed since the publication of that paper and only one action is being implemented, namely, the €400 payment for hosting refugees. In fact, it has not yet been implemented. From what I have heard from my colleagues today, a lot of good work is being done for children from Ukraine in schools. It is not as if we are saying it is all bad. I believe that we have an opportunity to prepare in the coming months.

On the Chairman's suggestion that we pause the programme, I think it would be completely unethical. It would bring us into line with that the UK is doing. The Taoiseach's leadership, compared to that in the UK, has been exemplary. Fundamentally, I think it would be a breach of EU law to pause the programme. We opted in to the directive. I do not believe we can necessarily opt out. Let us take stock. It is a very challenging period. I was at the Aviva Stadium on Saturday to watch a football match. There were way more people in that stadium than we have welcomed in the last two months. It is a manageable problem if we have resources and a plan in place. I fear that the absence of a plan will hinder us. I think there will be significant challenges ahead without it.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I very much agree with that point. It is about the co-ordination of an action plan that contains clear pillars and outcomes. We must also look at the issue of resources, how they are used and where they are directed. I know, from working in the community and voluntary sector, that the organisation that I work for and all of our colleagues in the community have come together to see how we, as a community, can provide support for children in their education, environment, development and other areas. We are doing that on a shoestring and in the absence of additional resources to do the work. Consideration must be given to the overall action plan, its pillars and the outcomes that need to be achieved. We must look at how all the aspects come together, how they are communicated effectively and how they are resourced to enable us to provide additional support to that which is already being provided, and to do that well and effectively.

Ms Meg Ryan:

I am in agreement with what has been said already. I reinforce the point that the aim of today's committee meeting is to identify cracks and the needs. Therefore, we are not recounting the litany of positive stories and successes of the programme and the response. The pressure is being felt in our infrastructure, including in the areas of accommodation, schooling and access to supports.

However, we have time to create a plan. As has been said, it is about having collaboration and co-ordination and ensuring a plan is in place in response to the needs that have been identified.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The point has been missed that it is great to come up with a plan and everything like that, but we cannot build classrooms, educate teachers or create school places in three or four months over the summer. In my constituency, school staff are coming to me saying they cannot take any more people. The schools are bursting at the seams. Children who should be getting additional resources are not receiving them. There are children, including Irish and Ukrainian children, being totally left behind. They are pushed into schools and that is it; the box is ticked. I spoke last weekend to a teacher from County Wexford who works in a primary school in Dublin that has DEIS status. She said she regrets going into teaching because of the pressures. She was under severe pressure at the start of the year and the situation is much worse now. She has six Ukrainian children who do not speak English in her class. Many pupils in this DEIS school have it tough and do not have supports at home. All of a sudden, there are six or seven Ukrainian children in the class who have no English.

The Government and the agencies must look at the reality of where we are today. There is no use giving the agencies additional resources next November, December, January or February. The current situation is totally unacceptable and should not be happening. Children are being pushed into classes that are full. It is all very well to take everybody and just throw them into classrooms but, in practice, it is not acceptable in my book. Can the witnesses tell us how Ireland compares with our European counterparts in this regard?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

In terms of numbers, we are approximately-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I know where we are in terms of the numbers. I am referring to services, including housing, education, health and everything else. I know what is happening in the UK, but how do we compare with other European countries?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

In some ways, we are doing very well. I have heard of very bad practice, for example, in places like Austria. However, I do not necessarily have a strong read on that.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understand. I was just wondering if the witnesses had that information.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

It all comes back to accommodation in some ways. People are being put in schools because that is where the accommodation is. Unfortunately, we are in a situation where, because of the lack of accommodation, the Department is grabbing on to anything it can.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. I see that happening in my constituency. Wexford County Council is shaking every tree in every townland, village, parish and town right across the county looking for accommodation. The management of one school has said it cannot take any more people. My point is that there is no use in the council securing accommodation in an area where there is no provision for school places and backup services. In the Dublin area, in which most of the accommodation will be located in hotels, etc., there is no matching up of services in terms of schools, healthcare and every other provision. A reality check needs to be taken and we may need to stall the whole process. We need everybody's co-operation. The situation yesterday evening was infuriating. No one should be sleeping on a floor. I am hearing what is happening and it is clear we are already, in June, at a crisis point.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

We have been flagging this with the Government for some time and-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Henderson is missing the point. We cannot educate teachers, construct new buildings and everything like that right now. I am asking whether we should continue to take in Ukrainian refugees at the current rate or if we should stall to re-evaluate and make sure we are making adequate provision for the people who already are here.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

We should not stall because it would be an excuse, it would be unethical and it possibly would be unlawful. It would miss the point that with proper planning and consideration-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is it not also unethical not to be giving these children a proper education?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

I do not think we are saying they are not being given a proper education. There is no doubt the system is under strain but none of us is saying it is-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What happens when it comes to September and October?

Mr. Nick Henderson:

We have been saying for some time, as I am sure our partners and colleagues also have been, that we can ride out the situation until the end of the summer, but things will have to be in place by September. I do not follow this particular issue closely on account of our various other responsibilities. I do not know whether the Department of Education has a plan and resourcing in place for September. That is a critical question because if it does not, it should have. That scenario is coming down the tracks.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Before I call the next speaker, I reiterate the point I am making. If a teacher is absent today and the school has to get a substitute, it will take 20 or 30 telephone calls to find one. There are not sufficient numbers of teachers at this time. That is the way it is. However, I have taken up way too much time. The next speaker is Senator Dolan.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. It has been a really good discussion. As noted, it is about identifying elements that are working well and also areas on which we need to work and focus. We are looking at a situation in which at least 8 million Ukrainian people have fled their country. According to a recent report from the UN, nearly 14 million people have been displaced out of a country of 40 million, the second largest by size in Europe. Ukraine is part of Europe, as are we. Our response has to meet the demand that is there. That demand is right now, not in a few months, and the Government is meeting it.

There is a whole-of-government approach but there also needs to be an all-agency approach and a whole-of-country approach. There is a demand on everyone here to step up and see how we can best support the families coming to Ireland. The question was put as to how other countries are faring. We know nearly 3.8 million Ukrainians fled to Poland. I understand some 2 million remain there, with more than 1.6 million having returned to Ukraine. Tens of thousands of Ukrainians are returning home every day. However, there remains a huge demand among families who have nowhere to go. Their homes, towns and cities have been destroyed.

The best thing we can do for the Ukrainian children in our education system is, number one, to provide safety. They need a place that is safe, gets them back into a routine and reduces the trauma they have endured over the past number of months. We can do the same for the parents and grandparents who are coming here as well, but the number one focus must be on looking after the children. That is really why the witnesses are here to speak with us today.

I am familiar with the great work that is done by each of the agencies represented. Barnardos staff see the children that are affected on the front line. They have been tackling the problems that disadvantage children throughout this period. The organisation has more than 45 service locations. I welcome that, among all the other things it does, it is providing training to hotel staff who are dealing with Ukrainian families who have been bereaved. I really like that as it shows evidence of thinking and forecasting far ahead. There will be a lot to do in getting children back into a routine. Will the witnesses comment on the importance of establishing routine for children who arrive here?

I am aware that the Irish Red Cross's migration services are also working with many other populations besides Ukrainians, including refugees from Syria and Afghanistan. Will Ms Ryan comment on the importance of the active case work support her organisation is providing to Ukrainians? Apart from educational support, this will include looking at medical support and social welfare, which requires a cross-departmental engagement with the Government. Agencies and Departments are working together to ensure we are providing the utmost support to the people who are arriving here.

Will Mr. Henderson give some detail on the Irish Refugee Council's education fund?

I also thank Ms Ward for her contribution. I welcome that she mentioned the NCSE is part of the regional education and language teams in each of our counties. Each county is working with the education and training boards and, again, the HSE, which I believe has really come to the fore in many of these areas to support children in finding places and in respect of school capacity. How important is it that the NCSE is in those regional education and language, REAL, teams? I ask Ms Carroll to respond first.

Ms Clodagh Carroll:

I thank the Senator for her input and questions. I will talk about what she mentioned regarding the importance of routine, which ties into everything we have talked about, including safety and security. When children are traumatised, they need to know what is happening next, and they need to know what part of that is in their day and what their day will look like. They are always scanning their environment for threats. Any sense of uncertainty, sudden change or things being different each time can be very retriggering for a child who has experienced trauma, especially a child who has fled a war and left his or her home suddenly. A sudden movement, a sudden change or any sense of uncertainty can retrigger that, make children believe it will happen constantly and make it very difficult for them to regulate their nervous systems. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked about when children are able to learn. It is when their nervous systems are regulated and balanced. When they are in balance, children can learn, engage and interact with their peers. Certainty, routine and security are all about achieving that safety the Senator mentioned.

An important part of that are the other elements that then come to the forefront, including choice, control, coming back to accommodation, how and where children live and how going to school works. Being considerate of all those things will be very important in the long term.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Carroll. I will move to Ms Ryan, if that is okay

Ms Meg Ryan:

To clarify, was the Senator asking for a comment on the work of other agencies regarding active casework support for Ukrainians in Ireland?

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Meg Ryan:

Having systems in place, such as a streamlined process for medical card applications that is in Ukrainian, has been very successful. It gives service users access to healthcare treatment and there is less fear about the financial implications of seeking medical support. It is very successful and useful to have systems like that in place. It shows that language access is key in supporting people who have been relocated.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Is that in an online way or is it simply that translators are available? Is translation being provided online?

Ms Meg Ryan:

The medical card application form is available online with Ukrainian and English side by side on the same form, in the same way many of our forms have Irish and English on the same sheet. It has also been shortened. Instead of a five- or six-page application, it is two pages. It contains very basic information and does not require some of the additional things needed for an Irish medical card applicant. That has been very useful for people in getting access to healthcare. It is the same for social welfare, where people have quick access to a personal public service number and social welfare payments, which has been very useful and very successful.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Ryan. I am conscious of time. I ask Mr. Henderson to come in for a few minutes and then Ms Ward.

Mr. Nick Henderson:

Our education fund is coming up to its fifth or sixth year in existence. It is open for one month a year in July to international protection applicants and refugees and it gives grants. Our average grant is approximately €350. This is a grant for a course itself and travel or resources to allow somebody to study. We are grateful to the donors for it. The fund has grown in size and we now have two people on our education team; our education officer, Ms Charlotte Byrne, and our education assistant, Ms Rosemary Kunene. It is a very useful tool.

On what Ms Ryan just spoke to, we also have a helpline staffed by five Ukrainian speakers. We have received more than 850 calls so far. We have answered calls from people in Ireland and elsewhere about anything and everything regarding their situation.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Well done. That is great to know. I ask Ms Ward to respond, if we have time.

Ms Nuala Ward:

We cannot underestimate the importance of the inter-agency approach of these regional teams. That joined-up thinking will benefit children. The involvement of the NCSE is critically important because some of these children are very young. Their needs will only gradually emerge over the next few years from teachers and parents. It is very important the NCSE is in there at an early stage to support schools and to give them resources they need through special needs assistants, SNAs, or whatever other means. By having them there at an early stage, it is to be hoped we will try to get ahead of the problem, which is a critical theme we all see from today's discussion.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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We have many pressures ahead of us but it is about seeing how we best use the resources we have.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us today and for sharing their expert knowledge and insights with the committee. We have had a fundamentally important debate. I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh for making the earlier proposal. I commend everybody on their efforts right across the board in giving a safe haven to the Ukrainian families who have come to Ireland and sought refuge with us over the past number of months. I believe this situation will get a lot worse rather than better, unfortunately, when we see what is happening in Ukraine and what the Russian Government is signalling. That loss of life is very sad. What the Russian people are doing to a very peaceful country is really unfortunate. I thank members of the public who have put their shoulder to the wheel over the past number of months in taking in displaced families. Many people have gone above and beyond the call of duty to help all these people, specifically those in the voluntary sector. I again thank them very much for that.