Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our witnesses. Unfortunately, they will be joining us remotely via Teams. We had hoped we would be able to have them here in person, but it is what it is and we have to carry on working remotely for the moment. I welcome Mr. Tom Ryan, director general, and his colleague, Mr. Donal Smyth, national match officials manager, Gaelic Athletic Association, GAA; Mr. Gerard Perry, chairperson, national referees committee, and his colleague, Mr. Ger McDermott, director of grassroots football, Football Association of Ireland, FAI; Mr. Dudley Phillips, head of referees, and his colleague, Ms Anne Marie Hughes, Spirit of Rugby programme manager, Irish Rugby Football Union; and Mr. Sean Slattery, vice president, Irish Soccer Referees Society.

I have some housekeeping to go through first and I hope the witnesses can bear with me while I do so. The format of the meeting is such that witnesses will be invited to make opening statements, which will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes - a limit on which I will be as strict as possible in order to allow as much time as possible for questions, debate and discussion - I wish to explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House as regards references they make to other persons in their evidence.

The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, a number of witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present would do. That is to remind witnesses they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that the provisions of Standing Orders, in relation to matters which are sub judice, place an onus on them to avoid, if at all possible, comment which might, in effect, prejudice the outcome of proceedings. Therefore, I will not permit any discussion or questioning which relates to any current litigation or investigation in the course of this meeting.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I also ask members to identify themselves when contributing for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report and to please mute their microphone when not contributing to reduce the background noise and feedback. I ask members to use the raised hand function when they wish to contribute. I remind all those joining today's meeting to ensure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

We welcome the opportunity to represent the GAA and address the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sports and Media to discuss concerns around abuse of players and officials in our games. At its heart, the GAA is about playing matches and valuing and developing people, which means an organisation fundamentally about players and match officials. The welfare and well-being of those groups are a high priority for the GAA, as I am sure they are for all sporting organisations.

I am joined by our national match officials manager, Mr. Donal Smyth. Mr. Smyth oversees match officiating in all respects. That includes referee recruitment and training and, crucially, general welfare and supports for our referees. Mr. Smyth and I will explain the refereeing environment in the GAA. We will be happy to hear the views of the committee, to learn from our colleagues in the other sporting organisations represented here today and, of course, to answer questions that may arise.

There are approximately 3,000 active referees and match officials in the Gaelic Athletic Association spread across football and hurling. We should remember a few key points about the members of this group; they are essential to the playing of our games; and they carry out their duties in a high-pressure and high-profile environment and do so on a voluntary basis. This is all the more reason that they deserve our protection, gratitude and respect. In the GAA, we try to manifest this protection and respect in a few different spheres. We will expand upon these as the discussion evolves today.

We equip referees to carry out their duties to the highest standard possible. This centres around training, evaluation and feedback mechanisms for match officials. We respond appropriately to any adverse experiences referees might encounter. This includes providing counselling as required for our national panel on a confidential basis.

We bolster the authority of match officials and strive to make their job easier by operating and maintaining appropriate playing rules and a disciplinary system. That process and its evolution is always undertaken with one eye on the practicalities for referees and it also provides for their protection in certain specific circumstances.

We expend a significant degree of effort on improving the culture that surrounds match officiating. For example, the Give Respect-Get Respect initiative is an awareness campaign that seeks to ensure Gaelic games are promoted and played in a positive, fair and enjoyable manner. That campaign engages with players, coaches, spectators and referees. We have commissioned significant research into many of the pertinent issues being discussed here, including the mental health challenges our match officials face and their experiences of verbal and physical abuse during matches. We have a referee development plan that details our ambitions regarding welfare provisions for match officials into the future.

We are acutely aware of the issues referees face. We are aware of our responsibilities in this regard and we are working hard to improve things, but one significant challenge is the fact that not all of the determining factors are within our direct control. There is a pervading climate among those who watch and report on games and, more significantly, those anonymous commentators on discussion forums and social media to persistently pass judgment on referees. This is quite often unfair, with little balance and, frequently, there is very little actual knowledge of the rules of the game. Despite our best efforts, this lack of respect can at times transfer itself to the field of play.

In conclusion, match officials and on-field discipline are a vital part of our and every other sporting association. Their contribution cannot be overstated. Put simply, if we do not have referees and officials to monitor our games, we will simply not have games. This is a message that sometimes does not seem to hit home for many sports followers and, at times, players, irrespective of the code. I welcome the fact that this joint committee has chosen to focus on what we consider a key issue for sport generally, and I look forward to hearing its views.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Ryan for that comprehensive statement. I am sure it will incite many questions from our members. Before I invite Mr. Perry to make his statement on behalf of the FAI, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Republic of Ireland team which had an amazing win last night with a score of 11-0. I listened to all the discussion and debate about it this morning. Unfortunately, I did not get to see the game. It says something when there were more than 340,000 people tuned in to watch that game. Fair play to the ladies. It increases our hopes for a World Cup qualifier. Well done to them. With that, I invite Mr. Perry to make his opening statement on behalf of the FAI.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for her good wishes and for acknowledging the successes of our women's team last night. It was great to see and to see so many people tune in.

On behalf of the Football Association of Ireland, I thank the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media for the opportunity to address this meeting on issues relating to the abuse of referees, officials and players across different sporting codes. I am the chair of the Football Association of Ireland’s referee’s committee whose responsibility is the governance of all referee matters within the association. All the referee committee members are volunteers.

As the biggest participation sport in the country, football provides so much pleasure to so many players, coaches, volunteers, officials and, of course, referees or match officials. Our referees currently cater for more than 80 leagues across the country and in excess of 220,000 registered players. The benefits of football to Irish society are immense and across so many areas not least the physical and mental well-being of all involved, including players and match officials. As such, it goes without saying that in order for players to play competitive matches, we need match officials to take charge of them. Referees are an integral part of the game, and our current social media campaign highlights no ref, no game; respect the referee.

Everyone in the FAI is well aware of the current issues around the abuse of referees, other match officials and even players and team officials. Unfortunately, this appears to be a growing problem in Irish society and across many codes, not just football. The recent cancellation of an entire weekend’s programme of underage games in one league is the most recent manifestation of this problem, and it highlights the concerns of all involved with grassroots football and our united desire to combat this issue at all levels of the game before it threatens mass participation in our very game.

This issue is now coming to a head, but it is not a new one. As recently as 2018, football’s world governing body, FIFA, warned all national associations, including players, coaches and spectators, that the current trend of abuse towards referees would result in a global shortage of match officials. Ireland has not escaped this scourge but we are taking steps. Since 2019, 34 cases of physical abuse of match officials have been brought before the disciplinary control unit of the Football Association of Ireland. As members will see from documentation forwarded to the committee, 22 of those cases resulted in long-term suspensions for those found guilty of physical abuse, ranging from 12 to 24 months.

We cannot and will not tolerate the abuse of any match official. The onus to respect the referee in the first instance falls on the players, then the coaches, the club and supporters. We are involved in education programmes to best inform all involved of their obligations to respect referees, and we have also engaged in a social media campaign featuring grassroots officials to highlight this with the hashtags, #NoRefNoGame and #RespectTheReferee. As members will see from the documentation sent to them, this campaign was highlighted at the recent Ireland versus Portugal international game at the Aviva Stadium when the message was captured live on television.

We are also actively working with existing and new referees to ensure they feel safe when they cross the white line to take charge of matches. While our referee numbers fell from 1,400 to 1,200 between 2015 and 2020, over the last 18 months we have successfully launched a recruitment drive. At the start of 2021, while we had 1,211 registered referees, that figure has already grown to 1,430 referees today after 581 recruits to the online course, 261 of whom are already allocated to leagues and 281 awaiting Garda vetting.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have to stop Mr. Perry there because we have run over time. He has quite a bit in his statement. All members have his statement; it has been circulated. We can extract some of that in the questioning later. I thank him for that. I invite Mr. Phillips to deliver his opening statement on behalf of the IRFU.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend today and offer some insight into the experience of the IRFU regarding abuse of match officials. I am the head of referees with the IRFU, a position I have held since I retired from the professional game in 2017. In total, I have been a referee since 2001 and have officiated at all levels of the game and, while not week in, week out, I am still an active referee within Leinster.

I am joined by my colleague, Ms Anne Marie Hughes, Spirit of Rugby programme manager. The Spirit of Rugby programme was launched in September 2017 to promote and protect the values of the game. It is primarily an education and information programme to guide the types of behaviours that the IRFU wish to be lived across our clubs. Aimed at players, coaches, volunteers and parents, the main purpose is to educate players on their rights and responsibilities, while implementing initiatives for volunteers and administrators so they can positively influence all to engage in the game in a fair and ethical manner. Through a series of workshops, educational material and ongoing communication, it encourages a culture within clubs where the values of the game are embedded in all activities, clearly demonstrating our values through actions.

Unfortunately, abuse of match officials is on the rise, and while rugby has a good reputation for respecting our officials, we are not immune and must continue to take the matter extremely seriously. Sport is one area impacted by what seems to be an increase in abuse in society in general. One only has to look at the many reports through social media that arise in sport week in, week out to see evidence of this. As elected officials, I am sure members are only too aware that there are too many minority voices with extreme views.

While we have become aware of incidents of abuse at games, abuse of match officials is not something we have faced week in, week out. Our goal, backed up by the work we do through Ms Hughes and the Spirit of Rugby programme, is to make the experience of rugby enjoyable for all involved. This can include some appropriate encouragement towards players and referees. In fact, most referees appreciate appropriate feedback after a game.

We continue to spend a lot of time and resources in education on culture and the values of the game. The Spirit of Rugby charter, included in appendix 1, shows that all players, coaches and match officials sign up to a code of conduct, which we expect to be upheld. When there is an example of the charter not being followed, there are processes in place in each province to address it and, if necessary, to sanction those who have been found to cross the line from what is acceptable. Sanctioning of spectators is not so easy and is a longer journey we must travel, but we will continue to focus on ensuring those on the terrace understand our culture and respect the match-day experience for all. We have provided education resources to clubs and schools throughout the country to remind those attending games that players, referees and coaches are volunteers and take part for fun. Examples of this material are included as appendix 2.

In cases where abuse has been experienced, we believe it is vital match officials who have been impacted are supported by their province and, ultimately, the IRFU. Refereeing is a rewarding and enjoyable role in sport, but it will come as no surprise to members that it can also be a lonely job at times. We urge rugby clubs to include their referees in activities such as training and social events to counter any feelings of isolation, which in turn can add to the difficulties experienced on a bad day.

On the professional side of the game-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for interrupting Mr. Phillips but he has run over time. I appreciate he has prepared an extensive presentation, but all members received a copy in advance of the meeting and it will be more useful to spend our time on a question-and-answer session, where we might extract more information.

I thank Mr. Phillips and invite Mr. Slattery to make his opening statement.

Mr. Sean Slattery:

On behalf of the Irish Soccer Referees Society, I thank the committee for its invitation to the meeting. There has been much media attention recently regarding the continued nationwide verbal abuse of referees and threats of violence towards them in a number of sporting codes. My own reference point is the Irish Soccer Referees Society, which comprises almost 1,000 members nationwide in our 27 branches, with members in every county.

Thousands of matches take place every week, providing a vital recreational outlet for many thousands of players, parents and spectators. In some of the more socially deprived areas, this is sometimes the main outlet for young people, and our members gladly play their part. The downside is when banter is replaced by insulting, foul language, sometimes followed by threats of violence directed at the referee. In 99% of games, referees are on their own at the venues; it is only at the top level of schoolboy or girl and amateur football that assistant referees will be present. The effects of this type of behaviour can be very demoralising for the referee, and when this becomes a regular event, many of them decide enough is enough, say to themselves they do not need this in their lives and retire from the game. Even worse is when assaults occur. In Dublin, there have been three in the past three months. In these instances, the players were suspended for 12 months, the minimum suspension allowed for under FAI rules.

The question being asked today is what the State can do to improve the situation. We have always recommended to our members that if they are assaulted, they should report the matter to the Garda, but in most cases this does not happen, possibly due to the fear of recrimination. Another factor we have noticed over the years is that when cases are reported to the Garda, the judicial process seems to take a long time. Perhaps the State could help by encouraging a more urgent response from our lawmakers when such threats or assaults are reported. This, in turn, could lead to our members having more confidence reporting such incidents. If this happened, the people involved in this behaviour might see there are real consequences to their actions.

We are open to any suggestions that may arise from this meeting and look forward to any further engagement that may follow.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Slattery, in particular for sticking to the time.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Perry is offering to respond to the Deputy’s questions.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I thank the Deputy for his insightful comments. This is a complex issue and as one of my colleagues from the other codes said, refereeing is complex and it is not a simple task. Lots of things happen at different levels of the game and something can happen in the same game that is handled or managed differently at different times in the game.

On punishments, about two and a half years ago we changed the rule to change the level of punishment. The minimum punishment for a straightforward offence was 12 months and for more complex offences it was three years. Those are minimums and they can go up extensively. In one of the most recent cases there was a 40-year ban. I think there is a legal issue with giving lifetime bans. I understand that if someone is banned for a lifetime that has an implication in law. That is one of the reasons we do not support lifetime bans.

The Deputy talked about clubs being punished. The FAI regulations provide an opportunity to fine clubs and the association has recently reformed a welfare group for referees, which is addressing the area the Deputy has touched on in punishing clubs more severely. That has only recently been re-established in the last month and some of the initial conversations are around how we get clubs to take responsibility, not only for their players or coaches, but also for their spectators, and what punishments we should-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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There is just one minute left and Mr. Ryan had indicated as well so I will give him an opportunity to respond.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

I thank Deputy Andrews for his comments and I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of them. I want to point out that we have provision in our official guide for expulsion from the association. In terms of punishing a club, there is a possibility for games to be forfeited and so on but we do not have a suspension mechanism for clubs. We will be happy to take that and other ideas emanating from the committee today on board.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I will start with the FAI and then I will move to the other organisations. This morning my local paper, the Meath Chronicle, carried an opinion piece on this subject and the headline in Jimmy Geoghegan’s piece was "Time to give all bully boys the red card". I will jump to his summation where he talks about how the Meath Chroniclecarried a story in early October on how the Louth branch of the Irish Soccer Referees’ Society, ISRS, had issued a statement referring to the difficulties encountered by its members, officially in games in the north-eastern football league. It adopted a zero tolerance stance whereby if they had abuse directed towards them they would simply pick up the ball and walk off the field. They said that on certain days they knew there would be serial offenders playing. The officials also clearly felt that not enough was being done by those who govern the game to stamp out the abuse. A spokesperson for the Louth branch said, "The lack of appropriate sanctions is allowing such serial offenders to continue to attend and operate in an official capacity." One of the things they asked for was clearly marked areas for coaches and officials and that supporters would be at least 2 m back from the pitch behind a rope, fence or marked line of a different colour. Is that being taken on board by the FAI to protect its officials? Will those clear lines of demarcation be brought in? I remember some years back from my time as a sports reporter being at a derby game in the Meath and district league round and a supporter beside me headbutted one of the players over an incident. That happened because there were no demarcation lines. Will what the Louth branch are calling for be taken on board?

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I thank the Senator for the question. I am aware of the Louth branch’s issues, which are similar to many branches around the country, as I am sure my colleague from the ISRS will say. All of those inputs are on the table with our referee welfare group and those things will be considered. A number of leagues already apply a rope around the football pitches in public spaces but it is difficult for a referee to police that and it is up to the clubs to police it. What happens is that after a period of time the rope gets pushed forward and then all of a sudden it is on the ground. It is difficult and it is much easier to deal with that behaviour where there is an actual fence on a private ground. I wrote to the Louth branch immediately after it raised those issues and invited it, through the ISRS, to contribute to the work of the welfare group. All of those matters are being considered.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of retention, Mr. Perry mentioned the figures in his presentation. He said the number of referees had dropped to 1,200. Is a part of that drop also associated with the increase in the registration fee to €100 to complete the referees course? What is the retention figure for those 1,400 referees who are registered today? Is that fully retained at 1,400?

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I will answer that question first. We have in excess of 1,400 registered for this year but the Senator again touches on a valid point in the retention issue, which I mentioned in my submission papers. A book was released in 2021 by a guy called Tom Webb, who is a sports scientist. He said there are worldwide difficulties with the retention of referees across many codes and sports, including small sports like athletics. Retention is one of the primary areas for us to address. Within refereeing circles we provide continuing professional development and the ISRS provides welfare and education, which are key. One of our initiatives is a buddy system so that for the first six months a new referee will be assigned an experienced referee and our one pilot project of that, for those who bought into it, even those it was small numbers, had a 100% success rate. We need to widen that.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Perry mentioned that the training happened online this year. Is the FAI liaising with the ISRS to get that practical support, even in terms of spatial awareness on the pitch? Is that happening as a follow-on from the online courses?

Mr. Gerard Perry:

As soon as the Covid restrictions allow us we will be providing practical sessions. We have just finished training 15 new members in our referee instructor course, which is trained to quality and qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 6. Our 20 existing members will then be providing on-the-field training and then we work closely with the ISRS, which provides practical experience to referees. We set the standards around that and we have to ensure they are appropriate. A lot of work is going on in retention but more needs to be done with the clubs and the players.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I will move to Mr. Ryan, who is welcome. I told my colleagues earlier in private session that being from Meath we do not have any problems because we always played by the rules and we did not need whistles. We have come a long way from the incidents of the 1980s with referees being put into the back of Fiat Uno's. On a serious note, I am guessing Mr. Ryan heard David Gough, my fellow countyman, on "Morning Ireland" this morning.

He pointed out the abuse in the GAA is not the same as what happens in other codes. He disagreed with our colleague, Deputy Dillon, and said we are not at the stage where we are talking about escalating to strikes. I agree with him on that. He is a top referee in this country. He was candid in saying he is not sweeping things under the carpet. I have experience as a dad going to my son's under-10s matches and formerly as a reporter. David Gough pointed out that there are rules for sanctioning players and officials. Where do we stand on sanctioning parents on the sidelines? Second, online abuse is a problem in the association. It cannot govern the online space but what is happening in the communications department? Officials are being abused online on social media.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

The Senator touched on two aspects at the outer reaches of our control. On spectators, that proves difficult. One of my colleagues from another sport referred to it a minute or two ago. There can be a distinction between people attending games and our members. Members can be and are identified and prosecuted under the rules of the GAA. If people are not members, it can be difficult. I do not want to be defensive about this but such incidents are not all-pervasive in the GAA by any means. I do not say that to minimise them. It is not a question of relativity. I heard David Gough on the radio this morning and he made comparisons with other sports. That is not particularly relevant. If there are any incidents in the GAA, they need to be taken seriously and dealt with. I am not interested in where we rate compared to other sports; we need to look after our own house. That can be difficult when the people we look to pursue are not members. In fact, it is almost impossible.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Whether it be underage or senior, where does Mr. Ryan see the problems from liaising with his colleagues?

Mr. Tom Ryan:

A difficulty which might even be greater than that of abuse is lack of respect. That can manifest itself in isolated cases in more extreme behaviour but in its own right lack of respect for officials is a problem. The Senator mentioned underage games. I am at plenty of underage and intercounty games and there is a culture that pervades where it is okay to pass commentary on referees or to second-guess them. The referee will be a topic of conversation at the end of every game, irrespective of who has or has not won. All of that contributes to an environment where the referee and his performance is fair game, and it should not be.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is online abuse something that concerns the GAA? I refer to the online commentary that nearly happens live at the event.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

It does. People might have heard our uachtarán coming out after the recent senior football final in defence of a particular player. That was necessary at the time and people will see more of it. It is not just players who deserve our attention in this regard; referees deserve it too, and perhaps all the more so.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I see my clubman, Donal Smyth, is joining us and I acknowledge the work he does for the referees' association.

As someone who covered club rugby for a long time, I acknowledge the culture in the IRFU is very good and emanates from club level. Mr. Philips mentioned that does not mean there are not problems. Does he know of specific problems at particular levels of the game?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

It is something we are constantly aware of in our sport and in society. We have mentioned social media in the last few minutes. Is it a problem? It is thankfully not witnessed week in, week out. If an issue arises across the country, it would be reported to the individual province associated with the game in question and a disciplinary panel would deal with it based on the facts of the incident.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Philips have statistics to that effect? In the FAI report, we see there were 34 reported cases over a three-year period. Does Mr. Philips have similar statistics?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

Up to the middle of November across the country we had approximately 27 cases. That is with more than 3,500 games.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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At all levels.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

Yes.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That is for just this year, is it?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

Yes.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That would seem a high number. Does that refer to sanctions for abuse of match officials?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

They are reported cases. Some may still be going through the process of disciplinary hearings.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of that disciplinary process and the IRFU attitude to innocent until proven guilty, where does the onus lie? Is there a heavy burden on the referee and match officials to prove that in that process? Across all codes, that grates on match officials as they try to prove they suffered substantive abuse.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

The key factor is evidence that is detail-driven in a report. Each match official is assisted, developed and educated about how to write a report around abuse and any on-field matter that needs to be reported to a disciplinary panel. The more detail and evidence a referee can provide, the stronger the case to be dealt with through the disciplinary hearing.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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I welcome everybody. The most common word used today has been "volunteers". Without volunteers in all organisations we would have no sport. If we had no sport, there would be an awful lot of depressed people out there. I am a sportsperson and enjoy playing sport. I played soccer, Gaelic, rugby, athletics and tiddlywinks and did everything involved in sport. I have nothing but admiration for sport and think sport is fantastic for the health and well-being of anyone participating in or watching it.

One criticism I will make is that social media and sports pundits have a lot to say. I am disappointed that these ex-sports stars and ex-referees go on social media, radio, Facebook and everything else to criticise fellow players and referees and do not realise that these people are human beings. Over the last number of years, a large number of people have had depression, suicidal thoughts and everything else. This is something these people should not get away with. As a player, manager and currently county board chairman, one thing I have learned in sport is not to criticise your own. If you have nothing nice to say, do not say anything. That is something all organisations should look at.

We are here today basically to talk about referees. The biggest problem we have is when a referee makes a decision, puts it in his report and it goes to the committees and hearings. All of a sudden, it is an in thing that all clubs do whatever they can to get a decision overturned. That can even mean getting solicitors or barristers involved. All they are doing is belittling the decisions the referee makes. County board and associations are doing their best to help referees but this is about making the referees look stupid at all costs when he or she makes a mistake. I notice from my involvement in sport that this is becoming very common. We all have to put our hands up and to protect referees.

With ex-players and referees coming out with mental health issues, what is each organisation doing to help facilitate volunteers who have given up loads of their time to help the organisation, mostly free of charge? I will start with Mr. Ryan and Mr. Smyth in the GAA. I am the chairman of the Louth county board. I am a GAA person and have known Mr. Ryan and Mr. Smyth for a number of years. I have great respect for all the organisations, especially the GAA. The number of young people participating in the sport is fantastic.

The logo the referees have on their jerseys states, Give respect, Get respect. To me, it is a sign that before the whistle is blown, people can see the referees are there to do a job and that all they are looking for is respect. If you give them respect, they will give you respect back. It is a fantastic achievement that there are 3,000 active referees at the moment.

I agree with Senator Cassells. This year, I was involved with the Louth GAA. We got an extra 11 referees this year. That is a great boost because we play a lot of football. We need maybe 30 or 40, if not 50, referees every weekend to facilitate the games. As the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, stated, if you have no referees, you have no games. When I sat down to talk to those 11 referees, I asked them what their major problems were this year. They said the biggest problem they had this year was not on the field, but off the field. As Mr. Ryan and Mr. Smyth know, most GAA pitches in the country have a perimeter wall around them. The problem is the parents and the abuse they give to the referees. This is from the under eights and under tens, the Blitz or whatever it is. This abuse is creeping into all games. We will have to look at it going forward. Ms Hughes runs the Spirit of Rugby programme, which is educating the spectators and the families.

Do the organisations meet on a regular basis? Do they talk about the problems they have? They are the three biggest organisations. This year, my son, Stephen, retired from football but he wanted to stay involved in the game. He became a referee, which was great. It means he can participate in the game and carry on. The common issue for all the organisations is the turnover of referees. The FAI said that 66% of new referees withdraw their services after two years. To me, that is a high figure. That should not be happening. Mr. Phillips said earlier, and I agree with him, that as a sportsperson looking in, rugby seems to be the sport that gets the most respect. I do not know whether that is both on the field and off the field. I go to many rugby matches.

If the three organisations sat down and talked to each other, I am sure they would find many common goals. It is important to protect the referees. They are human beings. What protections are the three organisations giving to referees? When a referee gets abuse, a decision is made by the relevant organisation’s committee. Next, it will go to hearings, to the DRA or whatever. It is important we let the referees know we are totally behind them. As Mr. Smyth said, all of these referees are well trained and fit. There seems to be serious knock-down in all of the organisations. It is important that we protect the referees. We need the referees. Without the referees, we would have no games of football. What are the organisations doing to recruit more referees? What protections are they giving the referees? If a referee gets into trouble, either mentally or physically, what back-up plan do the organisations have?

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I remind our guests that we have three minutes for replies, so I will ask them to as brief as possible. I think the questions were directed at all three organisations’ representatives. I call Mr. Perry who has one minute.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

On the protection of referees, we work closely with the Irish Soccer Referees Society around welfare. There has been a historical issue around the referee getting information about the outcome of any case that was taken against the player. Since we have centralised that process, that has changed dramatically. In the last two years, that information around the results of cases of assault goes directly to the referee. It is copied to the referees committee and to the Irish Soccer Referees Society. Around the protection of referees, both the society and the association run ongoing continuing professional development, CPD, programmes. It is a requirement for all referees at every level to complete at least three programmes. We focus on many areas that are associated with abuse. The programmes are primarily around match control and around player management. The laws of the game also allow referees to address coach behaviour. There was a recent change in the law whereby if somebody associated with the technical staff cannot be identified, the referee can issue a caution or an expulsion to the head coach. That is what is going on within football.

The Deputy asked a question about volunteers but maybe I do not have time for that.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will stop Mr. Perry to allow everybody an opportunity to come in. I ask Mr. Ryan to reply within one minute.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Smyth, who has direct responsibility for this area.

Mr. Donal Smyth:

I would like to say to Deputy Andrews that I have a problem. I am a goalkeeper and a referee, so I must be in real trouble.

As Deputy Fitzpatrick will know, this year the GAA brought in a provision to deal with misconduct of the team officials on the day. Yellow and red cards can now be implemented on the day the referee deals with the situation. The protection of referees is important. We have to encourage referees to report abuse. That is the most important message going out. We have to report it. County boards have to report it as well.

On welfare, I am the point of contact for most club referees. In the background, we have Justin Campbell who provides counselling for us in lifestyle and in other issues relating to that. This year, we have the two big decisions in the championship. The referee can be referred by me, or the referee can contact Mr. Campbell independently. He will deal with mental health issues.

The one issue we had this year, especially at national level, was that we did not have the panels together. As Deputy Fitzpatrick knows well, if there is an issue on a football team, we can look after each other, we can put our arms around each other and we can deal with it. We cannot do that in refereeing because of Covid-19 and bringing everyone to one place. The reality is that what happens in the house, as part of the squad, is as important as what happens outside of it.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Phillips to respond within one minute.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

When our referees find themselves in the unfortunate position of being on the wrong end of abuse, they report the incident to their province. The figures I gave earlier are across the four provinces. There is an element of support across each of the associations and societies. It puts their arm around the referees and gives them any support, either mental or general support, to get them through that particular case. It offers them some guidance from those who have perhaps been there before them. We have gone down the road of education over the last 12 months to help a referee to identify an abuse before it escalates into an unacceptable behaviour. They might gain some insight into and change their behaviour to try to counteract it before it happens.

On welfare, thankfully this does not happen often, but if a scenario were to be that severe, we would certainly offer some additional support to an individual referee who might need it off-field.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will now move to my colleague, Senator Warfield, who has ten minutes.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair and all of our witnesses for this interesting conversation. My notes are a bit scattered here, but I want to pick up on the under-reporting side of this. Do the organisations' representatives think there is under-reporting both internally, within the associations, as well as to An Garda Síochána? There is no need to reinvent the wheel. We see under-reporting of racism to An Garda Síochána and we see under-reporting of homophobia. I was looking at a document and some of the questions that arose were: “Isn't it just something that I have to just put up with?”, “Would I be wasting police time?”, “Would everyone find out about me?” and “What is the point in reporting?”. These are all questions I am sure any referee would ask themselves because it has become so acceptable on the pitch, on the terraces, or on the sidelines to hear this kind of abuse.

Is there under-reporting both internally and to An Garda Síochána? Would the organisations support referees, and Mr. Phillips touched on this in his last comment, if they want to report to An Garda Síochána? Do they inform referees about their rights or the appropriate State agencies? For example, the Immigrant Council of Ireland has a trusted service for reporting racism, if someone might not want to go to the gardaí, or whatever.

There are templates there. I commend the FAI. I was at the cup final in the Aviva stadium in Lansdowne Road, and I saw the "No ref, No game" campaign advertised. I acknowledge that. Deputy Andrews asked if we would see it in League of Ireland grounds as well.

The IRFU called on clubs to include referees in social events. The witnesses should please excuse my ignorance, but I do not know if a referee is associated with a club. I assume not. How would such inclusion happen?

It was mentioned at the outset that politicians know all too well about online abuse, but perhaps less so in person. It is horrific to think that young women and men are literally petrified on a pitch and have to put up with the kind of abuse we get day in, day out online. It is shocking. From my experience of playing, while there are issues concerning abuse, because we are more conscious of the abuse, in some cases it is increasing the amount of respect towards referees and an extra effort is put in by some people on the pitch to thank and acknowledge the referee.

Is the FAI hampered in how it might deal with this culture by FIFA or UEFA? Is the FAI limited in what it can do because of a lack of willingness on the part of FIFA or UEFA to prioritise this? The question could also be asked of the IRFU.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

I wish to refer back to two points that were made. One of the first points is that referees might ask what is the point. That would be a big worry for me across all sports if a referee were to have that view. It is our job to make sure that referees feel the support of whatever code they are involved in, that they will be supported and that there is a proper structure and procedure in place to follow through and rectify any wrongs that may have taken place. That is the first point I would make and encourage us to do.

I was asked another question about involvement in clubs. An integral part of retention, which is a word that was used earlier, is to feel part of a club. At the end of the day, we are club members. That could be either be through training and affiliation with an individual team or teams or social events. Ultimately, it could also help create a familiarity and bond between players, coaches and referees as we go through the journey of a match official.

Mr. Sean Slattery:

I thank Senator Warfield for his comments. Regarding the under-reporting of assaults to the Garda, this is where the State could throw its weight behind the process. I have personal experience of it. It could be seven or eight months from the initial report before hearing from the Garda again. We hear the case is with the solicitors, for example. A tiny percentage of assaults in soccer are reported to the Garda. I will not mention any names, but there was a high profile case a few years ago. That takes media attention from the other assaults. Everyone thought a big lesson would be learned, but in the following year there were 21 assaults. It would be a fantastic help if the judicial process could be speeded up so that it might not take a year and a half before an assault case goes to court. Supports could be put in place.

I highlighted to members of the committee that the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act was used in one case with which I was involved. The threat of an assault is enough to get a conviction, apart from any FAI rules or suspensions. A clear message could be sent out that there are consequences, other than just being banned for a month from a football game. That would be a great benefit to the members, and it might lead to an uptake. We always encourage members to report assaults to the Garda.

We also had an incident two weeks ago where a referee was told he would be killed by somebody when he was getting into his car. That has been reported to the Garda. There is stuff that goes on and suspensions are handed out by the FAI. The FAI has regulations in place. It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel. What happened is that some of the disciplinary bodies in the leagues around the country are not using the sanctions that are available to them, which could send a strong message. The FAI and the society have worked very hard to get the regulations in place. There have been small fines and the same people are being reported. There are options for multiple sanctions. We do not need a brand new list of rules to come in but, from a legal point of view, it would be great if members knew that it would not take forever to get something addressed.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I thank Senator Warfield. I echo what Mr. Slattery said. The issue of reporting is important. Some of the representatives of the other codes have already mentioned this. Training referees to make detailed reports is important. Both the society and the FAI regularly include that in our continuing professional development, but it needs to be improved.

I thank the Senator for acknowledging the respect campaign. There was a question on whether we are hampered by FIFA and UEFA in terms of the culture. In fact, the contrary is the case. As recently as last week, UEFA wanted to know about the issues involved in referee recruitment and how it could assist with that. As I said in the opening statement, FIFA is very keen to say that everybody has a responsibility in this regard in football. That applies to all codes.

Pre-Covid, the three main sports that are represented here were in contact. I echo the point that all sports have issues. Following this meeting, the FAI would be very much open to having a high-level joint campaign.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

I will be very brief. Mr. Perry is correct. There have never been better relations between the three sporting organisations as we navigated our way through the recent difficult months and years.

In response to Senator Warfield's point about under-reporting, I do have some fear around that. I will restrict my comments to the sphere of verbal abuse, because that is the more prevalent worry we have in the GAA. That could be due to a combination of factors. As individuals, people can have different levels of tolerance for different situations. That is not a good thing. People can perhaps have reservations about how issues are going to be dealt with. We have a responsibility to reassure referees that not only is it their responsibility to report but it is our responsibility to act on it when they do. I acknowledge Mr. Phillips's point about referees and integration within the clubs. Referees are representing clubs on the Gaelic games field as well. We do our best to make sure that they feel part of the club organisation. Mr. Phillips has explained that very well and I fully endorse his point.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I am probably oversimplifying it, but it seems that in rugby the only player that can talk to the referee is the captain. That is a simple step FIFA and UEFA could take that would make the lives of people easier. However, I may be oversimplifying it.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I got all the opening statements but I had to leave the meeting for a while, so I apologise in advance for any repetition or any questions that have been already asked.

This is an important session to highlight the abuse, mainly of referees, but also of players and management across the board in terms of abusive language, etc., in sport. What was highlighted in the opening statements is incredibly stark and worrying. This is an issue that we definitely have brushed under the carpet and, maybe, had a blasé attitude to as something that is part of sport and that we need to get on with it and over it. It has to be remembered that these are individuals and they have lives and feelings too. I am glad we are having this session and, hopefully, highlighting this and making people think twice about it.

We have all seen this happening. Anybody who has attended a sports game from local to international club level will have heard the shocking and abusive language levelled in the main at referees. We have also witnessed the intimidation, with families being brought into much of the abuse that is being levelled. Management are not free from this abuse either. Where a wrong substitution is made, a certain section of the crowd will respond and call the person responsible for it everything under the sun. It is not good enough and we need to clean this up, not just for referees but for players and management as well. I respect that this discussion is mainly about referees. I have seen some of the disgusting hand gestures being made towards referees, the name calling and the physical intimidation after a game where referees sometimes have to run a gauntlet of really angry disrespectful individuals. We have all seen this. It has been part of the furniture for so long, we have turned a blind eye to it. We cannot do that anymore. In that regard, this engagement is really important.

I have two questions, on which, with the permission of the Chair, I would like to engage in a questions and answers session. If possible, can the witnesses give examples of the worst cases of abuse, intimidation and assaults of which they are aware and can highlight? I would welcome two or three examples such that people can understand what referees have to encounter.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Slattery to respond first.

Mr. Sean Slattery:

We have had the full spectrum, from referees being physically attacked and hit during games, some if it high profile, to intimidation, with referees being told "We'll get you in the car park" and "We know where you live". One member recently received a telephone call which, again, the Garda are dealing with because it was from a private number. He was told that he would be knifed at his next match. It is only in the tiny minority of games that these things happen, but we welcome the possibility of some action coming out of today's meeting.

The FAI and the regulations in place are very strong but, as I mentioned, we need the State to show a stronger hand when it comes to the reporting of these incidents. They are not just isolated incidents. Referees are going home feeling scared, etc. If it were not for the network of colleagues, more people would be leaving the game. Often when something happens in a game a referee can receive up to 15 telephone calls by the end of the day, etc., from colleagues. It is one of the loneliest feelings when you have to abandon a game of any type because on the long drive home you are constantly thinking about it. The full spectrum of what can be imagined is used and said, including threats. That would not be specific to any one area; it can happen anywhere to any of our colleagues.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Would Deputy O'Sullivan like a response from the other witnesses or does he propose to ask another question now?

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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What Mr. Slattery outlined is pretty stark. Would any of the other witnesses like to add to that?

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Smyth like to comment?

Mr. Donal Smyth:

From our point of view, there are a few incidents that are historical. During the championships last year where there were a couple of big decisions that went against particular teams the referees were subjected to awful abuse. Ireland is a such a small country that an envelope with only Donal Smyth, Navan, on it can get to me. That is what is happening around the country. The top referees are so well known these types of letters are getting to them. I get them at Croke Park as well, which I deal with specifically.

The other issue is the online abuse. A referee makes a decision in a split second on a particular day, which he believes is right. There is no understanding of how or why the referee makes a decision. On two occasions last year, two of our top referees were subjected to awful abuse. As rightly said by Mr. Slattery, we are lucky that we have such comradery of the panels in supporting each other, as well as the other supports. As said earlier by Mr. Ryan, in ordinary club games, in some cases, referees do not report the incidents. That is where the issues arise. We are trying to provide support and to encourage referees to report abuse, but as said in earlier responses it is insidious. When top referees are being subjected to it, what is happening at local level worries me.

I want to return to a point made earlier by Mr. Phillips. The most important thing is the support structure. As every referee in the GAA is a member of a club, the club should be putting the arm around the referee in that circumstance as well and also be providing support. We are a community. We should be providing support from that perspective as well.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Mr. Phillips to come in at this point.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

The Deputy asked a question so I will answer it. While no abuse is acceptable, thankfully, it would be verbally centred rather than physical abuse that I would be aware of across the board.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for responding. I am struck by the seriousness of some of the incidents. Mr. Slattery spoke of that feeling of loneliness. That must be a terrible place to be. I acknowledge the witnesses have called for supports. The following question may have been already asked, but what are the existing supports in each of the organisations for someone who finds himself or herself in that very lonely place? Are those people pretty much on their own or are there avenues of support available to them?

Mr. Sean Slattery:

In terms of supports, the network is in place and there are people available to them to talk to but they are not qualified psychiatrists, etc. A positive development following on from this meeting would be the putting in place of professional help. We encourage members to talk, but that is not the same as having a professional or specialist for them to engage with. That is something we need to look at ourselves, but if the State could help in any way in terms of the putting in place of people who know what they are talking about when it comes to that type of trauma, that would be a help. We do not have a specific set routine for when that happens. It is generally comradery.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Slattery. Would Mr. Perry like to comment?

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I am trained professional clinical psychologist. The interventions we would want would be a community response in the first instance, such as set out by my colleagues in terms of clubs and referee societies. We need to go in at that level. If it needs to escalate to another level, we could move to referee observers in terms of providing support and, finally, to GPs and up to counselling, if needs be.

Referees are a terribly strong, resilient group. A tiered approach is used, rather than going directly in with professional help.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank all our witnesses for their contributions. I come from a GAA background and am lucky to have had the privilege of representing both my club and my county, Mayo. I have seen first hand the importance sport and the GAA have in our lives and the importance of sport in our society. I acknowledge the huge contribution our match officials play. We might not agree with them at all times, but they deserve the utmost respect when carrying out their duties. It was fantastic to see Maggie Farrelly make history in County Cavan three weeks ago by becoming the first female referee to take charge of a senior men's county final. We have seen progression in terms of more females participating in officiating matches, which is important.

I will start with the reporting structures or fear of not reporting abuse and threatening behaviours against match officials. It is important we know the true extent of the problem. To be fair to David Gough, a person and referee for whom I have considerable respect, he may have got the wrong end of the stick when I made reference to the GAA not being immune to this issue. That is an important statement. The GAA should be looked at it in its own right and not in comparison to other sporting organisations. What do we use to track the level of incidents? Mr. Perry talked about a centralised system. Will the GAA and IRFU provide some figures to support the tracking of incidents?

Mr. Tom Ryan:

I completely agree with Deputy Dillon. It is not a question of relativity or comparisons with other organisations. To the extent there is an issue in the GAA, it is the GAA's problem to solve. Sadly, we are not immune from many of the issues we are discussing today. With regard to the process involved in referees reporting and collating information, if there is a disciplinary issue in a referee's report, he is required to submit that report within 24 hours. At national level, that is done electronically. We have good and fairly robust numbers, electronically, because of a new IT system we have rolled out in the past 18 months or so. That has not yet extended to county level, which is still largely paper based. Reports of local instances of abuse are dealt with by the competition control committees, CCCs, at county level.

In terms of robust statistics, overall, the national statistics are probably more relevant for me to quote and I hope, give a decent indication of scale. Over the course of the past year, we have had towards 1,000 intercounty games. Some 104 players were sent off during those games and three of those were sent off for abuse and those instances resulted in suspensions. In addition, there was one case involving a team official.

I have to admit that speaks to me of under-reporting, for whatever reason, whether it is cultural, or to do with tolerance of individuals or trust in ourselves in terms of how we prosecute them. I cannot point to anything empirical to suggest what the level should have been, but we would all accept there were probably more than three instances of abuse at intercounty GAA matches over the course of the past year. In terms of going forward and the collation of information, the intention is that we continue the roll out of the new Foireann system, which will happen post-Covid. We will be recording disciplinary reports electronically at that stage.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I certainly welcome that. If there are more than 3,000 referees under the remit of the GAA and three cases, it is probably an issue that needs further consideration. With regard to how the CCCs deal with these cases and their reporting structures, it seems the GAA is soft in its disciplinary sanctions. Does Mr. Ryan agree with this?

Mr. Tom Ryan:

Respectfully, I do not. That is quite a broad statement and the Deputy will know the characteristics of each incident can vary quite considerably. One thing that is built into the system which people can find frustrating at times, but it is fair that it is there, is the right of appeal at every stage. If the sanctions arrived at, at the end of the process are to be robust and stood over, it is important all of those little protocols are built into the system. What we have, more than a lax disciplinary system, is a disappointing culture of lack of respect for officials. That can manifest itself in behaviour on the field, the grounds, the sideline or social media after, where it is kind of okay for us all to have a view on a referee and not to be guarded in how we express it.

As with any mechanism, I am sure there are ways our disciplinary system can be improved, but it has stood us in reasonably good stead up to now. The real job for us, which is a difficult one and sometimes one is not sure how to go about it, is the culture that surrounds the entire games. When it starts at the bottom, it permeates right up the through the organisation and the difficulties seen at senior intercounty level are a result of learned behaviours over the course of a juvenile playing career.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Do we have an example of enforcement of the disciplinary procedures to ensure rules on verbal or physical abuse are dealt with? Are there examples of what has been imposed on clubs, players, officials or supporters in recent times? I will open those questions to the FAI and IRFU, as well.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

The Deputy might know of a particular ongoing case. I will not comment on that, because the penalties have been proposed. It was fairly high profile and the appeals process is still ongoing. If Mr. Smyth does not mind, I will defer to him on past experience of the scale of penalties handed out. The full suite of penalties is available to us, in terms of match and time period suspensions, loss of games and expulsion from the association. I cannot answer how often the extreme has been applied. I do not know off the top of my head, but Mr. Smyth might be able to help the Deputy with that.

Mr. Donal Smyth:

The funny thing about refereeing, which the other boys would also say, is that when the referee submits his report, it is for the CCC to deal with and it goes on from there. There is some frustration around some decisions of the CCC in refereeing, as to the way they are dealt with and that kind of stuff, but each county keeps its own records of abuse and such. How do we wrestle that all together to get a true picture of what is happening? We have been involved with Dr. Noel Brick in Ulster University to try to get the true picture of what we are dealing with. It is hard to do so unless one has empirical evidence to deal with what we are dealing with. The reality is we do not have the true figures, because each county keeps its own and we will not have them until we get a centralised system.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I will echo what Mr. Smyth and Mr. Ryan said. The FAI has a centralised system to record physical abuse, but not verbal abuse and that is very difficult. However, to get accurate data, we have to begin to define what we mean by abuse, whether it is verbal abuse or threats.

The international literature has struggled with that and I made reference to that in my submission. We all need a common language around what we mean by abuse. What one person perceives as abuse somebody else perceives to be background noise and he or she turns a deaf ear to it. We need to drill into definitions and collect hard data on verbal abuse and threats. That would be helpful in how we not only individually but collectively address this problem.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I call on Mr. Phillips to respond.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

We do not have a centralised record because the provincial disciplinary panels record and deal with the issues as they occur. If it is a national competition or one at representative level, that is when it would become a disciplinary matter for the IRFU to deal with but up to that point it would all be dealt in the provinces.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Dillon for his line of questioning. I will move on to Deputy Mythen. He has ten minutes for questions and answers.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for attending. Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned women in sport. Maggie Farrelly was mentioned as having made history. I would also mention Michelle O'Neill from Wexford. She became the first Irish referee to officiate at the Olympic Games, which was great. As we are approaching the end of the meeting, most questions have been asked. The representative of the Irish Soccer Referees Society said in his statement that the problem is nationwide. He also said that the FAI rule book sets out certain rules but are they are greatly enforced? What is the case?

A representative of the GAA mentioned a survey was being done by Dr. Noel Brick, a lecturer in sports psychology. Is that available to the public and to the committee? I would say its findings would be very interesting.

What do the witnesses consider to be the biggest obstacle for referees? I played all sports and I coached the three sports represented here. I have some experience of it. I ended my sporting career in rugby. I passed on much of the information I got from rugby because it was disciplined. There were very few incidents. In the other sports there were some, especially with respect to players. We must concentrate on having a player-driven and particularly a coach-driven approach to tackling this problem. I have found there are good coaches and bad coaches and often when there is a bad coach there is indiscipline and that spreads throughout the club and on to the field. It is important coaches are really aware of what they are coaching.

Regarding the Respect campaign, we also had a great campaign against racism. Racism must be addressed in sport. Do the witnesses consider a campaign involving high profile spokespeople could help in championing respect towards officials? Should such a campaign be introduced? Many high profile panellists are inclined to take apart referees when they make a mistake. We have high profile games where the referee has a video assistant referee, which is very good. We should welcome the technology and we have Hawk-Eye and so forth. Ordinary referees do not have benefit of that technology. They have to make a split second decision at a moment in time. They make it, whether it be right or wrong, and it has to be dealt with. I advised all the teams I coached that the referee is the 16th player on the field. The referee can play with the team or against it and it is up to members of the team to be disciplined. That point should also be put forward.

It was also stated that great knowledge could be shared from all three organisations getting together. Even if players from the different disciplines met once or twice a year and discussed situations in each discipline, that would be very good.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Do any of the witnesses want to respond to Deputy's comments and observations?

Mr. Sean Slattery:

On the Deputy's question on the rules not being enforced, those are FAI regulations. Some members might not be aware that every league in the country has a disciplinary committee. They are mostly run by hard-working people who are also volunteers. A new system was brought in a few years ago and Mr. Perry would have been on top of that when it was introduced. Any assaults are now reported. The referee sends in a match report of the assault to the league. Immediately, all assaults nationwide go to a disciplinary control unit, which is run by the FAI. It has its own panel, including legal experts. Assaults have not been dealt with at local level since 2019. They all go to the disciplinary control unit, which has very strong powers. It recently handed down a few suspensions for 12 months, which is the minimum. The problem with the persistent verbal abuse and misconduct, sometimes by coaches, etc. - the same people engage in it all the time - is that it is dealt with at the discretion of the local league disciplinary committees. The problem seems to be, and it surfaced a few weeks ago, that the same names keep getting reported for misconduct and either small fines or small suspensions were given out whereas under the FAI’s regulations there is a much wider span. It is nearly open-ended for the handing down of lengthy bans, etc. There is a sense that many of the leagues do not the enforce the existing sanctions. It is not that new sanctions are needed but there needs to be enforcement of the existing sanctions. I hope that is helpful to the Deputy.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Smyth is offering.

Mr. Donal Smyth:

The Deputy asked about a survey being carried out by Dr. Noel Brick. Ulster University was carrying out a survey on mental health with respect to referee abuse. It asked us to get involved and we gave it people's emails so they could be contacted about the survey. That research has been ongoing for a few years. Dr. Brick is doing a research paper for the Ulster University. I presume it will be published in due course. It might be no harm for the committee to contact Dr. Brick to find out the stage the research it at.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Perry is offering.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I echo Deputy Mythen's congratulations to Michelle O'Neill who refereed the cup final last weekend. It is great to have our women referees doing so well. I want to pick up on what the Deputy said about players and coaches being involved. That is really important. The footballers' association of Ireland is fully behind referees in our game and is willing to have some of its members take courses to be good role models in this regard. That is really important. I am sure all the clubs would support the same approach.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Has Deputy Mythen concluded?

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Not yet. I have a final question. The role of parents in tackling this problem has not been mentioned. Do the witnesses consider it would be a good idea to create a parents against harassment committee or steering group where parents could be invited to take part in conversations and in finding solutions, particularly in clubs? I find particularly with under-age players that the parents can get emotional when their young sons or daughters are playing. They really get into the game and sometimes what they say on the sidelines is not nice. Often parents try to live their lives through their children. The parents may not have been such good players but they want their sons or daughters to excel in everything and they put pressure on them to do so. Could such an initiative be taken?

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McDermott is offering.

Mr. Ger McDermott:

Parents' education is really important. We rolled a parent education workshop five or six years ago which clubs and coaches at club level can take. I am happy to share information on that with members after the meeting. It effectively holds up a mirror to people of their behaviour. It is only when people on the touchlines and sidelines, particularly parents, are shown their behaviour played back to them or examples of how they behaved that they realise how poor their behaviour was.

Some 33% of our clubs are currently engaged with our clubmark accreditation programme and under our next strategy we want 100% of the clubs to be engaged in the programme.

As part of achieving accreditation on an annual basis each club would need to work with its coaches to have a parent education workshop delivered to every parent in the club. I hope that in time the workshop will become part of club culture. That speaks to some of the points some of the Deputy's colleagues have made on the role clubs must play. The associations need to provide clubs with resources so we are able to help with this matter. A parent education workshop exists.

We are acutely aware that many of the children who play our game play other sports such as rugby and GAA games, so when we educate parents on ways to eliminate abuse, we are not just educating them for ourselves because, hopefully, such education will cut across to other sports too.

Ms Anne Marie Hughes:

It is important organisations adopt an holistic approach when it comes to educating parents, coaches, referees and club administrators. The Parents in Sport Week is a useful initiative, which is provided by Sport Ireland and Sport Northern Ireland, and in which I am sure the other governing bodies have been involved. The week takes place in the autumn, which is a nice time of the year to bring in parents and remind them of the codes of conduct. The IRFU has created a snappy video that conveys a message with the line "play your part, let them play". The video reminds parents of their role and that matches are a nice time to engage in silent sidelines. It is a huge opportunity to adopt an holistic approach to educate players, parents, coaches and people on the sideline at the one time.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

Ms Hughes has covered a good deal of what I was going to say. Like the IRFU, the GAA has a code of behaviour that sets out the standard of behaviour that we expect from everybody who is involved in the preparation of fielding a team. I agree with Deputy Mythen that good behaviour extends to parents as well.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for their contributions and all the volunteer referees and the other people around the country who are a vital part of sport in this country.

I will follow on from what was said by my colleague, Senator Shane Cassells, about the online abuse of referees and players. It is an issue others have raised. Such online abuse has become a growing trend.

In terms of the interactions by the organisations here with social media companies, do they believe the social media companies, such as Facebook and Twitter, are doing enough to combat online abuse in the area of sport?

This committee is considering the general scheme of the online safety and media regulation Bill. We will have an online safety commission for the first time in Ireland and it will be responsible for dealing with online harm, including online abuse. In terms of the witnesses' experience of sport, what issues would they like to see addressed by the online safety commissioner? Should there be an individual complaints mechanism provided for referees or players if they feel that they have not been treated fairly by the social media companies?

I am conscious of a lot of the very good efforts to combat racism and racist abuse within the sporting codes. Homophobic abuse has only briefly been touched on. It is a type of abuse that has been directed against referees and players. I ask the representatives of the organisations present to briefly outline what is being done to ensure that the LGBT community can feel far more included within the sporting codes. What more actions need to be taken either by sporting organisations generally or the Government?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

Online abuse is a societal issue and does not just occur in sport. Online abuse is highlighted in sport because people take an interest in sport, watch events and then may comment. On a personal note, the ability of users to hide their identity significantly contributes to their contributions because they do not have to answer to anybody for what they say, do and how they make people feel.

We mentioned volunteers earlier. The vast majority of our match officials are volunteers so they are somebody's mother, father, daughter or son. I do not think that the people who offer the abuse across the social media platforms give that fact consideration. I would love to see the significant issue of online abuse addressed but, unfortunately, I do not have a magic answer as to how that can be done.

Mr. Ger McDermott:

I completely agree with the points made by Mr. Phillips and agree that online abuse is very much a societal issue. The FAI has a social media policy on online abuse, which is linked to the code of conduct that is part of our regulations. A mechanism to deal with online abuse when it happens, and the anonymity that people have, as Mr. Phillips referenced, is really important. It is tough for us to deal with online abuse so any legislation or mechanism for reporting and handling online abuse would be fully welcomed.

Negative behaviours, such as incidents of racism, will not be tolerated and are unacceptable. They are learned behaviours. As part of our new strategy we are considering how we can get into the education space and look at how we can help teachers with resources. All sports, in particular the senior international football team that recently enjoyed some success on the pitch, are very diverse, which reflects Irish society. Children view players as superstars. Therefore, we have an opportunity to use the profile of our superstars to help teachers in the education sector to, hopefully, use sport and these superstars as a way to educate people on what is acceptable behaviour. We are all different. We need to treat people fairly and stamp out racism. We certainly need help to counteract online abuse and anything that can be done with the mechanism would be fantastic.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

Let me outline one interesting aspect in terms of the social media question, and it relates to the other codes as well but in particular to ourselves. The high profile GAA stars and players are amateur players and the Monday after a weekend match they must attend college, work or wherever. Much of our discussion today has been, and rightly so, centred on the protection of referees but the same principles and rights extend to anybody irrespective of their role, whether it is playing or officiating a game.

What we would like to see is some understandable and easily communicable charter that sets out the rights and expectations of individuals when they feel they have been subjected to abuse. Criticism is fair and not something that any of us shies away from but it must be balanced, measured and informed.

I think Mr. Phillips defined abuse. There may well need to be something around that and I am not sure what the answer is. If a threshold is set then it would be fair to expect that when somebody who feels that threshold has been breached, with regard to themselves, they have some clear path or recourse, and are able to understand what course of action they can take and what are the responsibilities the social media firm involved. That would be a fantastic initiative not just for sport but for society in general.

In terms of the overall and general inclusiveness of sporting organisations, I hope people will have seen the GAA's involvement in things like Pride recently. I also wish to refer to the GAA's involvement in things like promoting Gaelic games among people from diverse backgrounds and people who have come to this country from overseas, with which we have made huge efforts. We would like to get to a stage where all of the protections and respects that we are talking about here today are afforded to everyone be it Gaelic games players, or GAA referees, irrespective of their country of origin, faith and sexual orientation. All of those principles apply across the board. The Senator might have seen, and I hope he did, that the GAA had a campaign called Where We All Belong.

I hesitate to call it a campaign. It is a little creed we try to adopt that says Gaelic games and the Gaelic games family are open to everybody irrespective of their background and that we value the contribution they make. Involving people from more diverse backgrounds can only make our association stronger.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I was very much aware of that campaign. It was very powerful and it spoke to the message, not just for the GAA but for all sporting organisations. For us, it is an interesting issue which I deliberately asked about. One of the issues we are grappling with is that question of the individual complaints mechanism where we deal with online abuse. We obviously know about it in politics. Many journalists would know about it. In sport, it is quite high-profile as well. While we accept the criticism, our challenge is that when that criticism morphs into abuse, we need to set a threshold to give people security. The way some sports stars have been treated is appalling.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Maria Byrne.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I apologise; I was at another committee meeting earlier. An area that I have a keen interest in is sport and I support many sporting organisations. I have heard some of today's discussion. When people are abused, be they the referee or the player or whoever, is there a support mechanism across the organisations that supports the referee at such a time, because some people go through horrific times?

Senator Malcolm Byrne covered some of my questions around the social media aspect and whether it is driven. I thank the witnesses for the response to that. My main question had been about the whole social media side and whether there are support mechanism. It is important there are proper supports in place for somebody, especially when they have experienced abuse. We often hear of people being abused in different walks of life. In sport, 99.9 times out of 100 people's involvement is in a voluntary capacity. It is terrible to think people believe they have the right to abuse others.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Do any of our guests want to respond to Senator Maria Byrne's questions or comments?

Mr. Ger McDermott:

Mr. Slattery referenced some of this, as did Mr. Perry. In terms of supports, Mr. Slattery made the point very well that the support network which exists among and within our referee fraternity is really strong. The Irish Soccer Referees Society is excellent and the branches do great work in supporting referees who are members. From our perspective, on the working group referred to by Mr. Perry that has been established to look at referee welfare and the next steps, we have done the regulations piece and some of the governance work. It is now about implementation and additional supports. Something we are keen to implement, and that was started in a number of leagues but which we are keen to implement across all leagues, is a referee liaison officer. This would be somebody outside the current and existing network who could link between the likes of the society, the people who organise fixtures, the referee, and the FAI. It would be important to have that additional person in place. I know everyone is aware of this but I note that those people were asking more of volunteers and asking for new volunteers. The FAI has an obligation and a responsibility to put the education piece in place to make sure we bring in the referee liaison officers and that we train them and explain the steps they need to take. They would have a key role in being that direct contact if and when something happens on the pitch.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Smyth want to respond?

Mr. Donal Smyth:

I responded earlier on this. We have professional counselling for senior referees in the country, which comes through me as a referee match official, and support mechanisms. Each county has its own referees' administrator and a referees' administrating committee that look after referees as they are going through the system. They are the first point of contact. The importance of the system of referees supporting each other is there as well. As one of the other contributors said, we have a graduated report that finishes with full-time counselling whenever required, and that is done in either of two ways, namely, by referral by me, which I can do through the association through ordinary referees, club wise, or they can talk to the counsellor confidentially. That is entirely between the counsellor and the referee.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

To answer the Senator's question without repeating everything that has been said, the structures in place to support the referees through each of the provinces is associated with other volunteers. We have a team of referee development managers who are very experienced and lend support to referees and help them through the issues escalating them to some form of formal help, should that be needed.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Phillips and Senator Maria Byrne for her contribution. Senator Carrigy is on the line. I am sure he has questions to be answered as it is an area of interest to him.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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First, I apologise because I was late-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The sound is not great. I suspect your microphone is not plugged in.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I apologise to our guests for being late; I had sent word of this. I welcome them and complement them on the work they do in their sporting organisations. The amount of work they do with the youth of our country is massive, especially throughout Covid in that it has been a difficult couple of years. I have young kids and it was great to see them get back onto the sporting field. It is an outlet for kids and has been over the past 18 months in what has been a difficult time.

I welcome Mr. Ryan who I know very well from Croke Park. I served at an administrative level throughout the GAA from club level - I am still involved in my club - to serving on the central council in Croke Park until about two years. I am very aware of the Give Respect-Get Respect initiative within the GAA in particular. I served at an administrative level for a number of years but I only ever refereed one game, and I umpired for probably ten years at national league level. It was an under-12s match. I will not say who were involved. I did it on an occasion when the referee had not turned up. I said to myself afterwards that I would not do it again because of what was said to me from the sidelines. I have to pay tribute to all those who don the referee jersey across all codes. It is important that we support them.

I have a couple of questions and I apologise if I repeat ones that have been asked already. Counselling services was just mentioned. Do all organisations have that service in place to work with referees who might have suffered both verbal and physical abuse? As regards games and the loss of referees, what number of games are we losing in the various codes due to the difficulty of getting people to take up refereeing?

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Perry indicated first.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I thank the Senator for his questions. I will take his second question first. It is a very difficult one to answer from our point of view. Games within the FAI and 80 leagues are played six days of the week now that we have floodlit pitches at grassroots level. Our referees are out referring six days a week and many games are played. When games fall through, it can be due to a clash of fixtures. If referees are all only available at the weekend, that is when our biggest problem will arise. If we look at the number of referees per league, it varies significantly. It is very difficult for us to capture an exact figure of the number of games lost because it depends on whether a referee is available for only one day or one afternoon, whether he or she is available multiple times a week or whether there is a clash of fixtures.

That is a difficult question to answer.

On the counselling piece, we have a medical director in the association. If needs be, we can refer cases up for consultation. We do not have formal counselling, but we are available to guide and assist referees who feel that is a requirement that they might need. Senator Carrigy may not have been here when I made the comment about having a pyramid approach to dealing with abuse and the sequelae of abuse. In the first instance, we look at the support mechanisms locally, whether it is from the Irish Soccer Referees Society, referees’ observers or friends and colleagues. If their needs are greater than that, then we would escalate it to more professional services.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

The number of referees has been impacted by Covid-19. I assume it has impacted the number who have returned across all codes. The challenge of the increased number of mid-week games, which was mentioned by Mr. Perry, has also impacted the numbers. We have already spoken about volunteers who have other commitments, which makes their availability that bit more of a challenge.

From the counselling point of view, as we referenced a few times, thankfully, we have not had to call on that, but professional services would be made available in an instance where the case was deemed that severe that we needed to escalate it up the board.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

A little bit like Mr. Perry’s experience, we do not find that losing games tends to be an issue, or it does not tend to be where the difficulties around referees manifest themselves. Referees are probably doing more games than they would have done previously. They are committed and busy individuals. Losing games is not really an issue and that is probably due to playing games throughout the week and so on, which we might not have done as exhaustively before.

We have professional counselling available to referees should they need it. They can either engage it themselves or they can be referred by ourselves.

On the overall loss of referee numbers, things a little distorted by the circumstances everybody finds themselves in at the moment. In general, our refereeing numbers are holding up okay. We would expect to take in approximately 250 to 300 new recruits each year. That has been the case in 2021, which is encouraging. We have not seen a huge fall-off in numbers. We are seeing people refereeing for longer and they are busier than they have ever been.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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On refereeing, I was on the Gaelic Players Association, GPA, representing the GAA. What sorts of numbers are coming back, say, from retired players across all codes? Maybe there needs to be stronger links with players coming back into refereeing. Has any initiative been put in place in the organisations to try to increase the numbers of former club, provincial or inter-county players coming back and giving a number of years to refereeing?

Mr. Donal Smyth:

I am a former inter-county player. Four or five years ago, we actively recruited through the players. Very few players get involved. It is strange. They say, "Look, I would not go near that if you paid me" and everything else. We are struggling there. Again, it is about constant recruitment. Every referee is trying to recruit fellows and trying to bring people with them. I try to identify people in clubs when I am refereeing games in order to bring them in. It is a struggle to get former players involved.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

He was a good goalkeeper.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

The player avenue is an untapped well of resources. These are people who know the game, who have a feel for it and who could get up to speed quickly. We touched earlier on club interactions and how more of a referee presence within their clubs could help give a player who is coming towards the end of their career a better insight into the refereeing world and how it might be of interest to them. That could even be through training with somebody or chatting with somebody and getting to know a bit more about the positive experiences of involvement.

Someone else referenced a referee liaison officer. This is another good idea that I believe in. We could have dedicated people within a club who make it their business to liaise with teams and coaches and as players are coming towards the end of their playing days, they might start that conversation a bit earlier. We could even go down the road of education to a point of giving them exposure to youth games through an affiliation programme, etc., or mini-games. This about getting interest, giving exposure and, hopefully, encouraging the transition over from playing.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

I would like to add to what Mr. Phillips said. In some respects, we have been guilty of our own success, given the growth of the game. Our over-35 leagues have increased exponentially. Those are the people we would have targeted to become referees in the past. They are now continuing to play. That is a problem for us. We have what we call an "associate referee", whereby people play and referee at the same time. We will have to look at exploiting that even further going forward. I know some of the other codes are already doing that. Our numbers need to grow and that is something we are actively considering.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and contributions. I am finally getting to my questions. I am glad my questions have not been touched on yet. When one is near the end, every question tends to have been exhausted. Some of my colleagues alluded to the huge and historical achievement of Maggie Farrelly who was the first female to ever referee a county final. I find it extraordinary that in 2021, she was the first female to do so.

I have two simple questions for all organisations. Could they tell me the number of female referees as opposed to male referees in the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI? If the numbers are low, have intimidation, abuse, verbal abuse and threatening behaviour a part to play in the low numbers of females participating as referees within the various organisations?

I will call Mr. Ryan first because it is in his organisation where Maggie Farrelly has risen to fame.

Mr. Tom Ryan:

I have to admit I do not know the answer to the Chair’s first question. Perhaps Mr. Smyth has it at his fingertips, but I am not sure.

Mr. Donal Smyth:

We have a number of them, but we are slightly different from the other organisations because we have camogie and the Ladies' Gaelic Football Association, LGFA. These are our sister organisations, and they supply referees. There is a dual mandate across the organisations. Many GAA referees referee at both ladies’ camogie and football. Even though Maggie Farrelly is refereeing, we would not consider her a female referee. Rather, we consider her a referee. She has been on the Ulster panel for the last while. She is on the provincial panel. There is no recruitment ban and we encourage everybody to be involved in refereeing. We bring them through the system in the same way as everybody else.

To go back to where I started, there is a correlation between what is happening between what is happening in the LGFA and the camogie and our games. Even though they are three different organisations, there is much correlation between the referees across the three associations.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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To finish on that point, since Maggie Farrelly is the first female to referee a men’s game - I am mindful of the distinction between that and camogie and so on - is the reason for that anything to do with this problem around how referees are treated from the sidelines by coaches, players and spectators? Does that have any part to play in that question?

Mr. Donal Smyth:

No, we do not find that at all. The last time we recruited we did a survey on the referees who had come through the system. It mentioned abuse in the first couple of years.

However, that does not come across in regard to them getting involved in the first place.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I am going to move that question on to Mr. Phillips.

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

Do we have as many female referees as male? No, we do not, but this is very much something we are targeting and working on. We are extremely fortunate, as with the other codes, to have successful female referees. We have Joy Neville, who was the first female referee to referee a male professional rugby game a number of years ago and, indeed, she refereed the women's World Cup final in 2017. We have worked with Joy and other referees. We have two female referees as part of our national panel. We are working hard around creating the right environment to encourage female referees to join and start the next chapter of their enjoyment within the sport.

While we will look at specific mentoring and specific female workshops to create that environment that I have mentioned, we are very keen that, as already mentioned by one of my colleagues, we do not look at female or male referees but that we look at referees. We have a joint pathway. It is very important that what while being aware of the need to facilitate certain aspects, we get all referees on the same pathway right the way through the system.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I will pose the same question again. Does Mr. Phillips feel this issue of how referees are treated when they are on the pitch is any deterrent to female referees?

Mr. Dudley Phillips:

I do not believe so. The general feedback I get is that the players and coaches are extremely respectful and appreciative of the fact that female referees are becoming more involved in the game, and that should be encouraged.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. That is positive news from Mr. Phillips's sector. I ask the same question of the FAI.

Mr. Gerard Perry:

The number of female referees we have is quite low at between 40 and 50.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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As opposed to how many males?

Mr. Gerard Perry:

We currently have approximately 1,500 so probably 1,450 are male. Like the other codes, it is about having the same standard of refereeing. If a person is refereeing at a particular level, whether it is grassroots level up to national league level, the person will have the same standard of refereeing to achieve in terms of knowledge of the laws of the game, application of the laws of the game, physical fitness and so on. We have had three female FIFA referees refereeing worldwide. Michelle O'Neill was the first assistant FIFA referee to officiate at the European Super Cup a couple of years ago with a French referee. Therefore, the avenues are open to female referees.

On the recruitment issue, the Chairman asked about abuse. Unfortunately, this is where there is absolute equality. Female referees are abused in exactly the same way as male referees, except for some of the stereotyping around gender, where the language is often something stereotypical that we would have heard in the past. It is neither more nor less. As to whether that is a blockage, I do not think so, and I think it has to do with the small numbers. It is about finding a way to attract people and using the good role models that we have to attract more females into trying out refereeing.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes my line of questioning. I thank the witnesses for their participation. It has been a very insightful, interesting and timely discussion. I hope that from the ideas and suggestions the witnesses have raised today, we can do something to address the issue in a proactive way. On behalf of the committee, I thank them all for their participation and their opening statements. It has been a long session but a fruitful one. Slán gach duine.

That concludes the business of the joint committee for today. We will adjourn until Wednesday, 15 December 2021, when we will meet in private session at 11.30 a.m. via Teams.