Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 23 June 2021

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation

Reactivation of Economy Following Pandemic Restrictions: Discussion (Resumed)

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank members and the witnesses for participating in today's committee meeting in line with the exceptional circumstances and measures we must take with Covid-19. Apart from me and the members of the committee secretariat, all members and witnesses are required to participate remotely. All members are required to participate from within the Leinster House complex. Apologies have been received from Deputy Stanton and Senators Garvey and Gavan.

Today, we will give consideration to facilitating the reactivation of enterprise, trade and employment following the pandemic restrictions. The committee will be assisted by representatives of the County and City Management Association, CCMA. Members will recall that last week the committee considered a similar issue with representatives from Irish Small and Medium Enterprises, ISME, and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU.

From the County and City Management Association, I am pleased to welcome Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, chief executive of Fingal County Council and chair of the CCMA business, enterprise, innovation and urban-town economic renewal committee. I also welcome Dr. Pat Daly, who I know well, chief executive of Limerick City and County Council; Ms Anna Marie Delaney, chief executive of Offaly County Council; Mr. Richard Shakespeare, assistant chief executive of Dublin City Council; and Mr. Padraic McElwee, chair of the local enterprise office, LEO, network and head of LEO from Clare County Council.

Before we proceed, I must outline some issues around parliamentary privilege. I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Evidence given by witnesses physically present or by those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If a witness's statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

To commence our consideration of the matter before us, I invite Ms Farrelly to make her opening remarks on behalf of the County and City Management Association.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

On behalf of the CCMA, I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to present on the role of local government in the reactivation of enterprise, trade and employment following the pandemic restrictions. I am the chief executive of Fingal County Council and chair of the CCMA business, enterprise, innovation and urban-town economic renewal committee. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Dr. Pat Daly, Ms Anna Marie Delaney, Mr. Richard Shakespeare and Mr. Padraic McElwee.

Local authorities provided a range of social and economic supports throughout the pandemic appropriate to the level of restriction in place for the economic sectors and across our communities. The roll-out of supports was implemented with pace, agility and efficiency with the aim of maintaining as much business confidence as possible during this time of unprecedented economic and societal change.

The following supports are managed directly by local authorities: 107 urban regeneration and development projects approved to a value of €1.6 billion; 164 rural regeneration development projects approved to a value of €338 million; €633 million paid to 108,000 businesses through the restart and restart plus grants in 2020; €1.2 billion of rates waivers processed, with the waiver continuing for quarter 3; €85 million in direct funding to local businesses, including €38 million for online trading to 16,000 businesses; €60 million in funding provided for the small business assistance scheme; more than 22,000 businesses supported with one-to-one mentoring through the local enterprise offices: and the participation of almost 110,000 people in upskilling training events organised by the local enterprise offices. There are now 35,000 jobs in 7,500 LEO-supported client companies. In excess of 20,000 outdoor dining spaces have been facilitated for the hospitality sector on the public realm. This includes local authority provision of more than 1,000 parklets and café-style options for business. More than 1,000 hospitality businesses have also benefited from in excess of €4 million in outdoor dining grants so far. Almost 3,000 new benches and public seats have been provided. Greatly enhanced litter prevention and cleansing regimes are in place.

As has been demonstrated, local authorities play a key role in the democratic, social, economic and cultural development of local areas. City and county councils across Ireland provide infrastructure, amenities and services designed to improve local areas as places to live, visit and invest. From an economic perspective, local authorities play a critical role in putting in place initiatives to stimulate the local economy and to support business in creating employment. Never has this role been more critical than in the past 16 months. Local authorities work closely and in partnership with Departments and key State agencies, such as Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Fáilte Ireland and the Arts Council, and on a local level with chambers of commerce and business representative bodies. This collaborative and partnership approach has been essential to navigating the challenges faced by business due to the impact of Covid-19.

The community call was one such action-led programme to provide services to vulnerable individuals during the Covid-19 lockdown. Co-ordination at local level by the local authorities was critical and the sector immediately responded to the call to mobilise community networks across the State over the space of a single weekend. At a local level, local authorities established a local authority response forum, which co-ordinated the work of the community call.

This involved frequent engagement through the national oversight group which included CCMA representation in its membership.

The local enterprise offices play a key role and are an integral part of each local authority, supporting start-up businesses, entrepreneurs and in general assisting businesses to scale up, innovate and develop their market potential. Local enterprise offices, LEOs, are recognised as a one-stop shop, providing enterprise advice, coaching, management development and expertise. The financial supports available through the LEO network have proven to be a critical contributory factor in the success story of many of Ireland’s high performing start-ups. It has been widely recognised that in the face of unprecedented challenge, the LEOs managed to pivot and adapt quickly to assist businesses to endure the crisis of the pandemic.

In addition, local authorities play a pivotal role in supporting tourism and the development of destinations and attractions throughout the country. Working in collaboration and partnership with the national tourism authority, Fáilte Ireland, tourism task forces have been established across the sector. The tourism industry has been one of the most affected industries by the pandemic. The impact on a national, regional and local level has decimated the industry. However, throughout this time, local authorities have been active and responsive in ensuring tourism on a local, regional and national level will survive and build back stronger.

Local authorities have also been instrumental in the provision of enterprise hubs. A national digital hub networkof 400digital hubs is now established, providing 15,000 workspaces and 270 broadband connection points. Wifi4EU schemes are also being rolled out nationally. All of these services are integral to future remote workings strategies. The Look for Local and staycation tourism campaigns had significant success in 2020. Further campaigns for summer 2021 are under way. More than 4,500 local companies have participated in the Look for Local campaign which covered every business sector throughout the country.

Local authorities continue to lead, deliver and finance city and town centre rejuvenation projects, economic activations and other direct business supports in line with the following Government initiatives: the urban regeneration and development fund; the rural regeneration development fund; the town and village renewal scheme 2021; the walking and cycling infrastructure programme; the rural active travel investment programme; the Creative Ireland programme; the reimagining outdoor spaces fund; the outdoor seating and accessories fund; the outdoor dining enhancement scheme; the local live performance scheme; the local authorities urban animation capital infrastructure scheme; the creative climate action fund; the enhanced litter prevention and cleaning programmes to support outdoor summer 2021; and the community enhancement programme.

The projects include large-scale urban regeneration investments and town centre public realm improvements and revitalisation projects. Town and city recovery task forces have been established to work in partnership with An Garda Síochána, the Licensed Vintners Association, Retail Excellence, chambers of commerce, local business improvement district, BID, companies and other relevant stakeholders. Dublin, Cork and Limerick city councils, along with most other local authorities, have been very active in this regard and further information is provided in our submission.

The restrictions on travel and the reduction in the capacity of public transport accentuated the necessity to accelerate active travel initiatives in cities, towns and local areas throughout Ireland. Local authorities implemented and continue to implement a series of measures to support walking and cycling. Active travel measures being delivered by local authorities primarily involve the improvement and expansion of cycling and walking infrastructure. These measures were supplemented by a suite of supports designed to enhance the safety, security and comfort of cyclists and pedestrians, such as the pedestrianisation of streets, installation of benches and parklets to accommodate rest, segregation of cycle lanes and roadways, provision of quiet spaces and installation of temporary and permanent toilets.

In addition to facilitating mobility, these active travel measures play an important role in supporting the physical and mental well-being of people through the pandemic. These measures also helped foster a greater appreciation of the natural and built heritage of local areas, while connecting local communities. The CCMA acknowledges the considerable support of the Department of Transport and the National Transport Authority which have committed €393 million investment for multi-annual active travel plans, with more anticipated. The roll-out of this is supported by creation of 248 active travel posts. Local authorities will play a key role in achieving the Government’s objective of delivering 1,000 km of cycling and walking infrastructure by 2025.

Local government economic plans for the coming months will build on our efforts over the past 16 months. In November 2020, a framework for development of local economic sustainability initiatives was developed by the local government sector. The framework was centred on significant measures and activities that were under way across the sector to support businesses at this critical time. Over the coming weeks and months, a robust suite of initiatives will underpin economic growth at local level and provide confidence for communities, as we move forward into a period of rebuilding. Local authorities are committed to supporting and facilitating an agile and appropriate response to business and community needs, working collaboratively with business communities and representative groups throughout the country. New regional enterprise plans are now being developed to encourage development of new and existing businesses and to increase employment in every region. Local authorities are a key partner in this process.

The CCMA and the local government sector acknowledge the extensive and far-reaching support provided by Government during the pandemic crisis and on a continuing basis. Local authorities have and will continue to respond to the needs of their local areas, assist business recovery and help get people back to work.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The members will have received a submission which they have read. I invite the members to discuss this issue with the witnesses. Members should raise their hands on the Teams function and, more importantly, when they have finished speaking, take their hands down. The first member who has indicated to speak is Deputy Louise O'Reilly who has 14 minutes.

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning and the important information they have shared with us. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge that Ms Farrelly from my area is here. I thank her for being here and for all of the work she and her team have done throughout Covid-19. I have written to her about this as well. It has been outstanding. Notwithstanding the challenges faced at every turn, the staff of Fingal County Council have been first-class in terms of the service provision, etc. I would be grateful if Ms Farrelly would pass that on to the staff.

We cannot ignore the elephant in the room which is the recent issue raised by members of An Garda Síochána, some members of local authorities and myself last night on the floor of the Dáil, with regard to consumption of alcohol outdoors. I do not believe any person in government, when he or she said we would have an outdoor summer, meant we would solely and only be consuming alcohol outdoors, but I also do not believe any person who said it could be ignorant of the fact consumption of alcohol will form part of the summer outdoors for some people.

I will be straight with Ms Farrelly. It does not seem sufficient preparation was put in place. I say that because last night, when I was on my feet in the Dáil Chamber, the Minister of State read out a script on behalf of the Minister for Justice that was contradicted by a statement issued previously to the media. The Minister for Justice has now indicated she will be drafting primary legislation to ensure people can stay within the confines of the rules and use the outdoor seating, whether that be for eating or consumption of alcohol.

That is regrettable. It sends a poor message to businesses that are struggling. Many of them in my area are counting the days until indoor dining reopens. In the meantime, all they have is takeaway and outdoor dining and this has thrown a spanner in the works. If you talk to local businesses, which I know Ms Farrelly does, they will tell you this is the last thing they need. If you talk to the workers who are working in these local businesses, they will tell you that uncertainty over their employment is the last thing they need.

My questions are fairly simple. Can Ms Farrelly say, with confidence, to those businesses that are operating outdoor seating for eating, drinking or both that they can continue?

Does she believe the primary legislation is necessary? Can she detail what consultation took place because for my part, it does not seem like there was sufficient consultation? If there had been, these issues would not have arisen. What level of consultation was there with the Government in establishing what the legal position was locally? That does not seem to have been done and it seems to be different from area to area. It is really disappointing.

Can Ms Farrelly provide her views on the primary legislation and on the level of consultation? If I were to have a pint next Friday in one of the many parklets provided by Fingal County Council outside one of the many lovely establishments in Skerries, where I live, would I be within the confines of the law? Does she think the primary legislation is necessary or does she believe businesses can continue to trade? Advising members of the Garda to use their discretion is not a good policy. The Garda does not want to do that as it puts its members in a poor position. Business owners and workers are concerned that it puts them in an unstable and precarious position.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

I might ask some of my colleagues to supplement anything I say here. I thank Deputy O'Reilly for her compliments with regard to the county of Fingal. Great efforts have been made across the country in every local authority to make sure we could get ready for the congregation that has happened as a result of the lack of indoor space. Much of what has happened in our counties is because of the need for people to congregate outdoors. We have been getting ready for the outdoor summer, including the provision of parklets, as referred to by Deputy O'Reilly, and outdoor space.

I can speak for most local authorities insofar as saying that usually, the local authority by-laws apply and prohibit drinking in public places. However, where licences have been provided under section 254 of the Planning and Development Act, the alcohol by-laws do not apply to those areas. Deputy O'Reilly is correct in saying that when I mentioned 20,000 outdoor spaces, a substantial majority of those areas have been provided to coffee shops and other dining areas where alcohol is not an issue and that should be taken into account. Many restaurants and public houses are using their own private space for the outdoor summer. Some have been supplemented by the outdoor parklets.

There was a lot of consultation in relation to the grants for outdoor dining, to help businesses purchase furniture for their private space and the public areas. It is clear that local authorities are responsible for the public realm and policing of people is a matter for the Garda. At a local level, in Fingal, there have been many conversations with the local gardaí, and we worked together. There is no doubt that the provision and the reopening of businesses, albeit with outdoor space, has greatly assisted the issue of people congregating. As an example, in Deputy O'Reilly's own town, it was mentioned to me recently that there are as many as 2,000 seats available in the private outdoor spaces of local bars and restaurants. Those 2,000 people were more than likely in the public area up until the bank holiday weekend in June. That has, therefore, greatly helped maintain the safety of our towns and villages.

The discretion seems to be necessary. Insofar as a precise interpretation of the legislation is concerned, none of our public space provision ameliorates against provisions in the licence for the public house or restaurant and that needs to be taken into account. I understand the point of sale of alcohol is a consideration as well. Ultimately, however, I am in members' hands as to whether further legal provision needs to be made.

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That is the point I take issue with. The Minister has now said she will bring forward primary legislation. Let us bear in mind, shortly before said she was going to bring forward primary legislation, she was tweeting that it was not necessary. This kind of shambolic carry-on is driving business owners and workers up the wall. My time is limited so I want to be very clear. Is Ms Farrelly confident that without primary legislation, people can serve alcohol, not in their own private spaces because I know that is covered by section 254, but in the public realm? Is she confident that without having to exercise discretion, members of the Garda can leave people alone so long as there are no public order incidents and that the people in Skerries, Balbriggan, Swords, Rush, Lusk or wherever they happen to be can have a glass of wine with their pizza or a pint or whatever in the public spaces specifically?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

I am not in a position to advise Deputy O'Reilly on the individual licence criteria of businesses. That is a matter for the businesses and only they can determine that. I have no sight of the licences. It seems to be working well in Fingal, insofar as the section 254 licence provides for the serving of alcohol. There is, therefore, no issue from that perspective. However, I cannot advise the Deputy on the licensing issue.

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine and I thank Ms. Farrelly. I have a question for Mr. Shakespeare on the pedestrianisation of streets. I will use South William Street as an example because it was only partially pedestrianised. As Mr. Shakespeare will know, that causes some issues because cars parks are located at either end of the street. The impression that has gone out is that the people who control the car parks control the pedestrianisation, which is bonkers because the people who control the car parks clearly have an interest that is entirely at odds with the goal of pedestrianisation. I would appreciate it were Mr. Shakespeare, particularly because he is here representing Dublin City Council, to respond to that. It seems that the partial pedestrianisation has worked. Is there an intention to expand this to facilitate more on-street dining etc. or is he content to facilitate the car park owners and confine the pedestrians into a small space?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

We have to balance everything out. The people who use those car parks are also people who participate in city life, be they fully abled, partially abled or somewhat disabled. This requires balancing between all the various people. We have 25 pedestrianised areas throughout the city and we hope to expand those. As Deputy O'Reilly will be aware, we are piloting different areas at different times of the day and night to see what works best. It is a delicate balance because the car park owners have rights and the car parks are needed to facilitate business and people coming into the city.

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure how many people were in the car parks on South William Street on Friday night, but I know that anyone who was there as a pedestrian was squashed into a much smaller space. It appears that was done to facilitate car park owners. I am not saying that people do not have a need to drive into the city sometimes but it strikes me as being a bit odd that the car park owners appear to hold sway over this. If there are no plans to expand the pedestrianisation in South William Street, that would be regrettable. I was on the street and talked to people who were there. For the vast majority of people there, notwithstanding some messing, it was a very enjoyable experience. People say that it is great and that it would be great if it were bigger. Is there an intention to expand the part of the road where it is working well, on the small area that is pedestrianised, on either side?

While I have the floor - I am conscious my time is short - does Mr. Shakespeare agree with his colleague, Mr. Coilín O'Reilly, in his assessment that providing bins and facilities will only encourage people to come into town or does he believe it would be a good thing to put in additional facilities? I think his colleague sent out a poor message to people in that there is no point in putting in facilities because that will only encourage people to come into town. Business owners want people to come into town. Retail workers want their jobs to be secure and people need to come into our towns and villages to do that.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

In answer to the first part of the Deputy's query, we review constantly what we do in terms of an enhanced public realm and public space. The comments of my colleague, Mr. Coilín O’Reilly, came at a particular point in time when there was no outdoor dining. We took a cautious approach and in response to calls from various sectors, we deployed 150 extra toilets. All public buildings that had toilets were opened. We deployed an extra 134 bins of varying sizes throughout the city where we believed they were needed. Things were said at particular points in time in the environment we live in and where we were with the reopening of the city and of premises.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Shakespeare. Deputy O'Reilly's time is up. Deputy Bruton is next. He has 14 minutes.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and all the speakers. I am in the happy position that both Ms Farrelly and Mr. Shakespeare cover my constituency. I have a couple of questions. I am interested in the council officials' view of town centre reinvention following the impact of the pandemic. One certainly gets the impression the shift away from retail to online has dramatically accelerated. I wonder what will be the permanent impact on town centres. As a group, are the officials changing their strategy with respect to town centres, particularly regarding residential living within towns? I saw data on the use of the local authority scheme for reviving derelict properties. Waterford, which is just one city, was using 45%. There appear to be opportunities on that front. Is there a new approach in this regard? The officials are now recasting both enterprise plans and development plans. Will we see a new approach to town centre reinvention? Ms Farrelly rightly quoted many schemes out there including, creative, public realm, cycling renewal and community schemes. There is a need to inject within individual selected towns some methodology for pulling people together to frame a comprehensive plan and I am interested in that.

As for the long-term impact of the pandemic, the second item I am interested in is the development of remote working outside the major cities. To what extent are local authorities looking at the potential of hubs to copper-fasten that development? Alternatively, do the officials think this is likely to be a fairly temporary phenomenon that will not call for very significant change in infrastructure?

Obviously housing is on the minds of most people and while the building of social homes was allowed to continue through the pandemic, I am sure it was considerably interfered with, and private housebuilding came to a standstill. How are local authorities approaching the issue of getting that back on track as quickly as possible, because there is such pressure in the housing area?

As we exit this pandemic, there are bound to be many businesses under considerable pressure. Have the councils been looking at how they are going to look at outstanding rates bills - although I am aware they did not apply during the Covid period - or how they might manage the problems of essentially viable businesses with short-term problems? In some cases, those businesses may be tenants of the local authorities.

Finally, I have a question for Ms Delaney of Offaly County Council. What perception does she have at this point of the progress on just transition? Covid has no doubt dealt a blow to many of the projects that were hopefully coming on stream. I would be interested to hear her view on where we stand with that and whether it can be accelerated in its impact.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

I thank the Deputy. I will come in quickly on the town centre approach and how we might reinvent some of our town centres. Certainly the town centres first initiative coming from Government is something on which we are working very closely with it. It is about living and working in town centres. The remote working opportunities may help reinvigorate some town centres and bring back more employment. Local authorities are looking at that quite closely. There is no doubt we need to work with all the stakeholders in towns. The principle of town teams is well accepted by ourselves and is in place in many towns across the country. I take the Deputy's point on dereliction. A combination of penalisation and incentives will get more activity into our town centres. We are worried about retail. However, some towns which are remote from city areas have done quite well during Covid and some of those areas have reinvented themselves. This has not perhaps been the case with city centres across the country. I will allow my colleagues from Limerick and Dublin city to come in on that. On remote working, I mentioned the 400 digital hubs already established and the need for more. It is not necessarily a rural issue alone. The likes of the towns in north County Dublin would benefit greatly from remote working hubs. Those towns have thrived somewhat during Covid as more people lived and worked in their local time as they were working from home. I would like to capture some of that benefit and ensure we can keep it into the future.

There is no doubt housing was delayed by the Covid restrictions earlier this year. We are doing everything we can to get that impetus going again and it certainly started off quite quickly when the restrictions lifted. We are all working to an agenda of activating more sites and getting more construction on the ground. It is going to be a challenging year but we are all working to the one agenda and driving through progress where we can. On the current rates waiver, I can only give the Fingal County Council experience but 40% of businesses benefit from the rates waiver at the moment in Fingal, so we are working quite closely with the other 60% on where they stand this year and whether they are in a position to pay the rates liability due. The communication is open and as we work very closely with businesses and try to address any challenges they face, that communication is already established.

I will hand over to Mr. Shakespeare and Mr. Daly to address the city centre issue.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

Deputy Bruton's first question was about the shift online. There was a 45% shift to online trading but we are focusing on the experience of city centre shopping and town centre shopping. In the long term, it is all about creating a more liveable city and people are talking about the 15-minute city. We have seven of the eight national cultural institutions within Dublin and that is an area on which we will need to focus. The question of what does city shopping offer people might be asked. The retailers have been preparing for this online shift and all we can do is try to facilitate it by improving the experience in the public realm and how people experience their city. In Dublin we have the living city initiative, which is encouraging people to live over the shop. That is based a particular area in the city. It relies on tax relief for individuals who own such properties to get them to build over the shop, as you might say, and get them to create those living spaces. We have had limited success in that but to try to attract people into that, it might be more help for it to be more about grants than tax relief.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Is there not a substantial grant to both local authorities and to private owners? The take-up seems very low, including by local authorities.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

It is primarily the tax incentive where people and owners are getting tax relief. I am not very familiar with this area, but Deputy Bruton is right. We have had limited success. We have promoted it online through normal channels and letter drops to relevant properties. In terms of the rates in Dublin city, we have just over 20,000 accounts. Last year we applied 18,000-odd rates waivers to a value of approximately €160 million. Approximately 45% of the charge was waived. This year, because of the changes, approximately 9,000 accounts have some form of waiver to the value of €84 million, and that is approximately 23%.

The Deputy had a query on commercial tenants of local authorities. We have approximately 750 commercial tenants. We invited people to write to seek waivers. Depending on the type of business, we have given waivers ranging from 12% to 85% in rent relief on properties in our ownership. I hope that this answers the questions.

Dr. Pat Daly:

I would like to add to what Mr. Shakespeare and Ms Farrelly said. Our experience in Limerick city centre is similar to Dublin. The market is changing and people’s needs and wants from the city centre are changing, particularly around retail. We are all aware that. The experiential approach will to feature more. We have been looking at this as part of the development plan process in Limerick. We have looked at the retail strategy for the metro area. That is common across authority areas in the country as they prepare the development plans. It is about looking at how to animate that space much more, as well as at how it can trip into the night-time economy, so that there would not be two distinct phases of an experience in Limerick from the business side in the daytime, switching not very effectively into the night economy. We have been asked to look deeply at that.

Revitalisation will be the carrot and stick approach, as Ms Farrelly mentioned. We are using all our legislative bases to challenge people who are moving on or developing properties. At the same time, we are gaining some success in Limerick on taking those back into ownership, changing them, and offering them back to the market. The owners are also stepping up to the plate and doing things. The Living City Initiative was mentioned. We are having some success in Limerick, which is a Georgian city. The scheme is dedicated to older buildings. Georgian buildings, in particular, are costly. The grant level may need to change or to be looked at. Broadly, it has the potential to be successful, but it may need some tweaking. We will probably engage with the committee on that later. However, it has potential and it would give people an impetus to develop, if either the grant or the percentage level on a tax base, were tweaked.

When people could only walk within a 3 km, 5 km, or 10 km limit, they engaged with their places. Place-making, as well as where retail animation is within that place-making, will feature heavily. I found it interesting - colleagues might share my view - that the engagement with trade and stakeholders has been active. People have taken much more interest in what they are trying to achieve, and in what they want from their cities and counties. That will feature heavily and the dialogue has been enriched. It should feature heavily in the development plan process going forward. I hope that answers some of the questions.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I ask Ms Delaney in Offaly for a comment.

Ms Anna Marie Delaney:

I will comment on just transition. I thank Deputy Bruton for his question and for his support previously at the commencement of the regional transition team process and its activation. On the just transition process itself, progress has been slow. That would be the perception of progress, both locally and throughout the region. However, there have been significant activities around the just transition process. We got engagement with the start team at EU level. It engaged with communities locally. There have been a number of recommendations and an action plan going forward to address some of those communities that are most impacted. With regard to the just transition fund, it supports projects across three specific priority areas, namely, enterprise and employment; training and upskilling; and community transitioning. There are Strand 1 and Strand 2 projects. Strand 1 is for those under €100,000. Of those projects, 16 are currently in contract. They are delivering. The total value of those is €1.2 million. As reported under those 16 project plans, they will create 28 direct jobs and 175 indirect jobs.

Provisional offers were then made to 47 Strand 2 projects, which are those up to €1 million. All have undergone state aid assessment, etc. It is a significant verification process. There many hurdles for those projects to get over in that verification process. However, at this stage, approximately 30% of those applications are in contract. Work is ongoing with Department of Environment, Climate and Communications to get the rest of them over the line. They are at varying stages of that process. Some €27 million was committed overall. We do not know if all that will be drawn down. We are seeking assurances on that and on what will happen to funds that are not drawn down.

The EU territorial plan is being prepared by the Department for submission. That will go to Brussels for ratification. There is €77 million in that just transition fund allocated to Ireland. With match funding and national funding, I think that brings it up €150 million. We ask that that will go to those communities that are most impacted. We look forward to working with the Department further on that.

We are looking at the administration of funds in Offaly. We are working with the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications to see if Offaly County Council can administer those funds to enable them to be rolled-out to those communities more quickly. It has been approximately 12 months since applications were made. It has been six months since the announcement of the successful projects. This is a obviously significant issue for communities that have made applications, particularly in getting their match funding. They have not been able to do local fundraising due to Covid-19. There is, therefore, a match funding issue for a number of those. We have been asking our Deputies and MEPs to look at that. We have had a couple of meetings with MEPs in relation to the NUTS 3 region and the EU territorial plan. These are progressing, but progress is slow.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I call on Deputy Paul Murphy, who has seven minutes.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation. I have a couple of questions for Mr. Shakespeare and Dr. Daly. I will start with Mr. Shakespeare. Obviously, I welcome the commitment to a liveable city, with its emphasis on outdoor spaces, outdoor living, and public spaces. All of that is important in the context of Covid-19 and also post-Covid-19. How does that commitment square with the plan of Dublin City Council to sell off Tolka Park to fund the redevelopment of Dalymount? This a regulated, controlled environment where young people, in particular, go to spend time on a Friday or Saturday night. It is a community facility, it is open-air, and so on. How does it make sense to get rid of a facility like that, and to replace it with private housing? This cannot be reversed in a few years' time, or certainly it would be difficult to reverse it in a few years' time.

If we lose a space like that, it is likely lost for good.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

It has been no secret for quite some time that when the redevelopment of Dalymount Park was first mooted it would need to be funded by both Dublin City Council and the Exchequer and that the city council's funding would be raised by way of levies and the sale of Tolka Park. For all intents and purposes, Tolka Park is private and it is not used day to day or week to week. People have to pay to access it. It is a run-down football stadium, as is Dalymount Park. One well-equipped and well-functioning 6,000-seat, multipurpose stadium would probably be of more benefit to the community than two poor stadiums. I know there is a "Save Tolka Park" movement but the land could be sold to an approved housing body. At no point have I said that it will be sold to private developers. The better outcome for everybody and for every football fan in the city would be a fully functioning Dalymount Park.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Is that the choice? Do we have to choose between one of the two or is it a question of finances? For example, Mr. Shakespeare indicated the refurbishment of Dalymount Park is to be funded by the Exchequer and Dublin City Council. He stated Dublin City Council does not have enough money from rates, etc., and must, therefore, sell off Tolka Park to raise the money. If the Exchequer was to make the funds available, would Mr. Shakespeare see the benefit of the "Save Tolka Park" campaign? The campaign calls for investment in Tolka Park in order for it to be a fully public facility. It has a good and detailed proposal that is costed at €10 million. This might be a question for the politicians on Dublin City Council but the ruling group has made a commitment not to sell off public land and to keep public land for public use. Would that rule out the sale of the land to private developers? Mr. Shakespeare denied saying the land would be sold to private developers but he is not ruling that out either.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

It is too early in the process. We have only just engaged with the design team for Dalymount Park after a hiatus. That will work its way through a process which will lead to a fully designed and specified stadium for which we can go out to tender. As a lifelong League of Ireland head, my preference would be to have one good municipal stadium with a community library and various community facilities approximately 1.5 km away from Tolka Park and to reuse Tolka Park for other purposes that would be of wider benefit to the community at large.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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If the funds became available from the Exchequer, would that still be Mr. Shakespeare's position? If Dublin City Council did not have to choose between the two and could choose to have both options provided in a quality manner, would that then become Mr. Shakespeare's choice?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

No. I would still be of the view that we should develop one municipal stadium because there is a viability issue. There is no point in having two stadiums servicing the area in question because the fan base is not there. We are trying to build atmosphere within stadiums so my preference is for a one-stadium solution for the northside of the city.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I have a question on Limerick for Dr. Daly. There is a big discussion taking place internationally on the changing nature of work. There is a question of where people will work and there is an emphasis in the opening statement on digital hubs. We could have a scenario whereby people work partly from home and partly from digital hubs. With that, the traditional office space becomes less dominant as the mode of working for a lot of people. Does that cause Limerick City and County Council to alter any of its existing plans? For example, I am thinking in particular about the opera site, which was to be developed primarily to accommodate what were described as gold standard offices. With this shift in emphasis, does Dr. Daly agree that there is a case to review that? The real pressure point in Limerick is the lack of affordable and quality accommodation and there is a need to increase the number of people living in the city centre. In the context of this discussion about digital hubs and all of that, is that something Limerick City and County Council will look at again?

Dr. Pat Daly:

On the question regarding the nature of work, Limerick is unusual in its history of development in that a lot of developers and entities built offices or units to order for clients. Limerick did not have a lot of speculation and the speculation it had did fill. It has been well managed in that regard. We have kept in close contact with both the indigenous and the foreign direct investment markets to see what the trends were. Their view is that the office market will maintain and that there is a role for the market and the office. They believe that people may do transactional work at home and that where people are transacting or processing work, they may do part of that at remote locations. However, for creativity, teamwork and strategising, people will still need spaces and offices. The inside of the office may reconfigure but the pattern of office development or the need for offices will not change. We are seeing that there is still a healthy pipeline in Limerick and we are still getting a lot of interest because the cost base is right.

We are benefiting from remote working in the sense that, through technology, people are beginning to relocate to Limerick or the mid-west to work. We have been working on remote locations. We have an innovation arm, Innovate Limerick, that has spent a lot of time putting digital packages together for Limerick, through community centres and new hubs, and with colleagues in the mid-west. That has been successful and our pipeline for offices is still strong.

On the opera site, much of that project is at advance negotiation with some client entities. That big landmark site is moving well and we are on-site carrying out ground works. We are having advance discussions on that. There is space for both public and private on the site, including a new library centre, new innovation offices and maybe an aparthotel. The Deputy is correct that we will still need affordable and social housing in the city centre, including new types of same. We are working on that project as well. It is not a question of one or the other; we need both to happen if we are to reach the target set for us in the national development plan, which is at draft stage. We will see a lot more investment. We have to make sure the city centre gets both commercial and residential investments. We would see everything working together.

Photo of Marie SherlockMarie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank our guests from the CCMA for appearing before the committee. I am particularly glad to see Mr. Shakespeare from my area in Dublin City Council here. I pay tribute to the council officials on the ground, particularly for the enormous efforts they made when the pandemic kicked off last year. It was an incredible response and it has continued in the months since. I acknowledge the enormous effort that was made and the challenging circumstances in which officials had to work.

The appointment of an office of city recovery is an important development. Every local authority should have such an office. It should not be confined to a small number of local authorities.

It is an important development that should be in every local authority, not just confined to a number of them. I am delighted to see Cóilín O'Reilly in that role. I have disagreed with some of his recent comments but it is good to see him in the role.

I have a question for Mr. Shakespeare about the planning taking place at the moment regarding certain parts of the city and the concerns about footfall, certain multinationals not renewing leases on buildings and the knock-on effect that is playing out, which will play out further if more people are working from home and there is not demand for local coffee shops, shops and whatever else. What planning is taking place in Dublin City Council with regard to the IFSC and the Docklands to prepare for a change in how people are working and will work in the future?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

All the language over the past year has been telling people to stay at home and work remotely. That narrative is starting to change. We are hearing about a move towards hybrid working from the commercial sector. There has been a reduction of footfall in the city centre and it is at approximately 70% of the normal rate now. That is without tourists and quite a lot of offices. We are doing our research through the economic development unit and we have the Dublin Economic Monitor, which tracks trends and sentiments. We will continue to do that and see how it plays out but we are aware of what is going on. We are keeping an eye on how we can work with other State agencies to ensure that these multinationals stay and help to generate the business that will sustain the coffee shops, newsagents or whatever else. We have all the metrics from the past four years from the Dublin Economic Monitor, which is well worth reading. It is published four times a year.

Photo of Marie SherlockMarie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Shakespeare. I am conscious that my time to ask questions is limited. I have three specific questions for him and a broader question for the other county managers.

We are in the middle of imagining a different city for ourselves. What steps have been taken regarding arts and cultural space in Dublin city? We know there has been a hollowing out over the past 12 months. What steps have been taken by the city council to dramatically improve the number of cultural and arts spaces in the city, especially with the large number of vacant sites?

Has any work been done on air quality? We had a quiet city last year and for the first half of this year. Has there been an escalation of the monitoring of air quality in this city for that period when people were not travelling compared with now?

There are obstacles to Dublin City Council retaining Tolka Park. It is owned by the council. I believe that we need to have juvenile pitches, community amenities and some housing on the 3 acres. I want to hear from a local authority perspective why the council has to sell that site.

This question is for Mr. McElwee, Dr. Daly and Ms Delaney. In their counties, there is concern about certain towns that are doing okay, which took a hit during the pandemic but will recover, and that we will see a widening of the gap between those and other towns that have been in decline for many years. That is what I am picking up from Mayo, Limerick and other counties. Is it borne out by the witnesses' experience that some towns will continue into decline and that recovery will not happen?

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Sherlock is going to run out of time. If she wants answers, she needs to finish up.

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

The arts office is currently doing research, especially in Dublin 8, on the arts and cultural space. There will hopefully be good news about two sites on Bridgefoot Street and Merchant's Quay. I do not have any specifics about air quality but we are looking to deploy air quality monitors in some of the smart bins we have to get the on-street air quality. The obstacles to retaining Tolka Park are more than just that. There are many underutilised spaces in that area. There is a need for space but there is also a need to fund capital projects, whether it is Dalymount Park or other capital projects. These types of development are not generally overly funded by the State. Coming back to Deputy Murphy's point, funding in that space could be enhanced but I do not think it is the key driver for removing Tolka Park.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

Regarding town centres, I mentioned the urban regeneration fund and the rural regeneration fund earlier. There are almost 300 projects under way and most are probably in towns with particular weaknesses, which need more jobs to be created and to be better places to live. It is a fair point. We have to monitor and make sure that we prepare for it. Those types of funds will try to redevelop those town centres and make them good quality places.

Photo of Joe FlahertyJoe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I address my question to Ms Farrelly, chief executive of Offaly County Council. It relates to just transition. I was pleased that she referred to some of the issues that groups are having with trying to draw down their strand 2 funding. It is frustrating for them. An additional issue is the escalation in construction costs. Some project managers are saying that their costs have increased by as much as 30% and it poses a problem. The region is disappointed that the ESB plans to proceed with its demolition plans at both Shannonbridge and Lanesborough, County Longford. Ms Farrelly said that they have plans for energy hubs there. Does she have any more information about what those energy hubs entail? Are they purely storage facilities for energy? Is there any dividend to the local community? Are there any job opportunities? There is a sense that there will not be.

Is there an onus on us as a Government to go to the ESB and an onus on the ESB to come forward to say that the €5 million it has committed to the just transition is not sufficient? The midlands have been the energy centre of the country for 60 years. If that €5 million is broken down, it would be the equivalent of €1,600 a week over those 60 years. It is derisory in that context. There is a growing sense of frustration in communities that what they have got under strand 2 will simply not make the numbers add up. Has Ms Farrelly any more information on the energy hubs? Is there a potential local upside? What is the view at senior management level of local authorities about going back to the ESB to ask it to man up and put more money in the pot?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

Longford and Offaly have been the most impacted places by ESB's closures in Lanesborough and Shannonbridge. I do not have any further detail on the energy hub proposal. I saw the press release that the ESB issued late last week. Kieran Mulvey, the just transition commissioner, has engaged with the company on our behalf. He facilitated a meeting with it about a community gain fund for Longford and Offaly, specifically Lanesborough and Shannonbridge.

We do not have any agreement on that yet. Negotiation is ongoing and I understand that any agreement at local level also has to be agreed with the ESB board in due course, if there is community gain fund availability. As the Deputy said, €5 million was provided by the ESB. In some of the discussions we are having with the company, there are buildings on both sites that may be given for community use. We are working through those proposals with the ESB at the moment, particularly those for Shannonbridge. The Dalton Centre is the building in Shannonbridge that has been mentioned and the local community group has also been liaising with the ESB in that regard. We are trying to facilitate that at the moment. However, the community gain fund would be very welcome in trying to get those communities that are impacted at Shannonbridge and Lanesborough some matched funding for the just transition projects and applications they have in the system at the moment.

We are getting commentary on the construction cost increases. The just transition fund was available over a three-year period. Due to delays in the system, it is now a two-year period with a closing date of 31 December 2022. We have asked the Department to look at that to allow a three-year period for those projects to get off the ground and to utilise the funding available to them. We are aware of the escalation of construction costs. We have also made that point to the Department. That is the full picture we have at the moment. Negotiations are ongoing with the ESB regarding any additional community gain funding that might be available for Lanesborough and Shannonbridge.

Photo of Joe FlahertyJoe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will be quick as I know other people want to come in. Is there any opportunity for communities, and those projects that will struggle with their matched funding, to utilise the community gain fund? Will it come on stream quickly enough and will it be of enough significant value to assist those strand 2 projects?

Ms Anna Marie Delaney:

What we are seeking would be sufficient. However, there is no agreement on it as yet. I cannot give the Deputy any further detail on it because the negotiations are as they are. I could not be any more positive that we will get that funding at the moment. I honestly do not know. Our elected members have also raised concerns, as the Deputy will be aware. I am sure it is the same in Longford. At Monday's meeting, Longford County Council passed a resolution to invite the ESB to a meeting with it.

Photo of Matt ShanahanMatt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I thank the guests. I will speak about the living city initiative. I am interested in hearing comments from Mr. Shakespeare but not about Dublin, which has been well covered this morning. I am thinking more about my city of Waterford. We are probably following the same narrative as other cities at the moment in trying to develop remote working opportunities, seeking to expand digital hubs and, hopefully, retain some of the outdoor amenity space we are developing, as well as developing public transport, access and all of that. I agree with what Ms Farrelly said. Much of this is predicated on jobs. It is basically a chicken and egg situation. If a place is not invested in, how can economic activity be created to drive job creation within it?

The living city initiative is not working in Waterford. The reason for this is largely economic but we also have many old, listed buildings. There is no benefit in giving property owners a tax break because there is no money to be made out of it in terms of a rental yield. The question is how we get these properties back into use. There are two hotels in Waterford at the moment, both of which are derelict. The property owners are sitting on them and waiting for a market bounce. In one case in particular, the economic tide has turned and one would imagine the owners would get going but the properties are sitting there despite dereliction notices and so on, which are not having the desired effect. Does Mr. Shakespeare have any strategies for moving that type of situation on?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

The one thing we have found is that people are reluctant to engage with tax breaks, as the Deputy rightly said. Given the age of the stock he talked about, there is a need for investment. Various grant schemes are available but they could do with beefing up in terms of quantum, heritage buildings and the repurposing of those into usable spaces. These properties need some investment from the State by way of a grant. It is a difficult issue. As I said, we have had limited success but we prefer to move away from tax breaks and more towards direct subvention to the building owner to develop a property.

Photo of Matt ShanahanMatt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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How will that scheme be achieved? Mr. Shakespeare mentioned direct subvention. How does the local authority achieve that with an owner?

Mr. Richard Shakespeare:

A local authority would need to scope out what type of scheme it would fund. There should be a pure, simple application that is assessed. We have a multidisciplinary team, including architects, conservation architects, planners and engineers to facilitate anybody who wants to engage in that. That is where we can be helpful in terms of what will work and what will not. From that side of things, it is that type of approach. A grant scheme would need to be specifically put in place. I do not know what my colleague, Dr. Daly, from Limerick, has to say. Limerick seems to be having a little more success than we are.

Dr. Pat Daly:

I thank the Deputy for the question. Limerick is akin to Waterford in size and scale. To add to what Mr. Shakespeare said, we could look to the blending of a conversion to a grant or a raise, or look at the time period of the building and the percentage of the tax allowance. We have had good dialogue and have gone door-to-door with our conservation and architectural teams, and talked and walked with the owners to challenge them to do more. It has resulted in 20 or 25 buildings coming back into the market, either being redeveloped or being brought for sale to the market. I can understand there is a great fear of using the scheme among some owners, developers, potential investors and even homeowners, which is that when they get into conservation of these old Georgian buildings, it will just be an open-ended bill. We have been able to guide it very heavily, as Mr. Shakespeare has said. We have been able to talk to property owners and, hopefully, give them some assurances. We have given them design templates to help them.

When we started that process and dialogue it helped things along. We were not the big, scary place where people felt they would just end up with a lot of costs, bills and regulation. We turned it on its head and said to property owners that these are very important buildings that are part of our urban architecture and history and we wanted to work with them on it. That kind of carrot approach has been better than the stick in this instance. If we could do that, and I know colleagues in Waterford are doing that, to try to make it happen, in addition to looking at some of the schemes' limits and potentials, it would help us all greatly. There is still great potential in the programme.

Photo of Matt ShanahanMatt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I have a quick question for Mr. McElwee. Can he outline any activity the LEOs are doing in terms of entrepreneurship around the living city initiative besides new coffee shops, eateries and all of that? There is an awful lot of that happening in all our towns at this stage. What other direct activities is he involved in when trying to get other small businesses in the service sector into that space?

Mr. Padraic McElwee:

Our core focus is on a lot of upskilling for small businesses. The pandemic has probably highlighted that many businesses were, possibly, under-resourced in their management capability. We have been working closely with them by putting in expert mentors to help and guide them. This also feeds into the green economy and sustainability. It is also about attracting people into shops and creating an experience in shops and retail.

It is also about attracting town workers to come back into those town centres with hubs. That is very important for rural towns. Much of the LEO client base is small businesses employing three and four people in local communities. They are fundamental to keeping our small towns and villages going.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the speakers. I will direct my questions to Dr. Daly. I compliment him and his team for how they have worked diligently to help transform our city centre. They do a lot of work to encourage businesses to survive and prosper and to get people into the cities.

I know Dr. Daly has worked very closely with Limerick Chamber of Commerce. Its excellent report, The Future Development of Limerick City, painted a really positive picture of transforming Limerick into an urban environment where significantly higher numbers of individuals live in the city and others are attracted to visit and to participate in cultural, hospitality, educational and other activities. It estimated that we would need 1,100 additional homes in the city each year. I want to revisit the issue of the Opera Centre in that context. The word "balance" has been mentioned. I think we all agree that we have to get the balance right. Given the aim of revitalising our city by getting more people to live in the city centre and in light of the urgent need for affordable housing, should we not revisit the balance in the Opera Centre and perhaps look at increasing the housing element?

Dr. Pat Daly:

I thank the Senator for his kind words. I will pass them on to my colleagues. The chamber of commerce report, which was prepared by Indecon Consultants, was very useful as an insight into how they see the world, as an analysis of how Limerick might emerge and develop and as an input into the draft development plan for Limerick. It identified that urban living, particularly in the city centre, needs to come up a level at pace. We would agree with that and we are working through it.

For the benefit of other members of the committee, the Opera Centre site is a large 4-hectare site in the middle of the city that we are bringing forward. We have a development company in Limerick called Limerick 2030 DAC. It is probably Ireland's only public interest development company. It is taking forward key sites that we felt would anchor the redevelopment and revitalisation of Limerick city centre. We are now looking at other locations around the county as well. The site will be mixed use. It will primarily have public spaces. In addition to a new building for Revenue, which is expanding in Limerick, there will be a new library centre, an innovation office block, an aparthotel, some retail, a neighbourhood centre and some limited residential development, involving the conversion of a Georgian area.

That is only one site and there are many others we are working through. A great deal of attention has been paid to the mixed-use aspect of the Opera Centre site. Much of it is under negotiation which I probably cannot get into. We have nearly all the blocks in dialogue with possible investors and owners. Work is continuing on other key sites around the city centre, some of which are in our ownership and some of which we are working on with the private sector, to bring forward apartment living and social, affordable and student schemes. I acknowledge that we have lacked such schemes in Limerick. Our planning has not been confined to the Indecon report, on which we worked very closely with the chamber of commerce, with which we have a strong relationship as a stakeholder. We have also worked with KPMG Future Analytics on our own reporting as part of the development plan process.

On an economic and spatial basis, we are asking what else is needed and how the mix works. We probably need seven or eight new sites that would have social and affordable aspects along with more commercial and residential aspects. That is where the next phase of the plan will be. We spoke earlier about animating the city centre, what the change in the mix of retail and living will be, and where the night economy meets that. I think that will be the next phase for Limerick. It is quite an exciting phase. I think there is a lot of interest in the public consultation around the draft development plan. That came through very clearly. It is very interesting that both reports we have been working with have come up with that as a finding. While I agree with what the Senator has said, it will be not be confined to the Opera Centre. We are a long way down the road in the Opera Centre - on-site works are taking place and development agreements have almost been finalised on several of the key buildings. There are plenty of opportunities to drive this agenda forward in and around the city centre.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I will follow up with a separate question on infrastructure. There has been quite a development of infrastructure, particularly things like cycling lanes. A core comment I get from people on the cycling side of things is that they are encouraged by what has happened but they really want to see an integrated network. How much of the infrastructure development is permanent? How close are we to getting to an integrated network where we can travel across the city on bicycles without interruption? On a separate but perhaps related matter, are there plans to have more public toilets and bins and to hold more events in the city centre, such as concerts in Arthur's Quay, to revitalise our city?

Dr. Pat Daly:

We are committed to making many of the cycle lanes permanent. They will be going back out to consultation as part of the transport strategy that is coming forward. There was so much interest in it and so much ambition that people wanted to see in the plan that the NTA, the Department and ourselves have gone back out for another bite of consultation to facilitate this. Adaptive travel is supported by the Government and the Department. We have a team of 29 coming forward that will take these initiatives forward for the council. We are delighted that many of the pilot projects in mobility, and particularly cycling, have worked very well. They have been integrated well. I believe they will become a permanent feature as we go through the draft plan. As we want people to be more animated in the city centre and to come to the city, we will have to look at the provision of public toilets and facilities. The pandemic has taught us that if we want people to be able to move freely and have spaces to work, rest and play, the public facilities and infrastructure have to follow. We are committed to making that happen as are colleagues across the country.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Finally, commuter villages such as my own, Castleconnell, Murroe and Caherconlish have an issue with a lack of public transport links. For example, there are only three buses from Castleconnell to Limerick city centre on Saturdays. Are there any plans to revisit that? I know it falls to Bus Éireann to extend the service but it is something that needs to be addressed, particularly for younger people who want to get into the city centre.

Dr. Pat Daly:

That is a very good and fair question. We have lacked frequency. We have been talking to our stakeholder groups both in Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann about increased frequency. A lot of that is coming back in through the transport strategy for Limerick. Orbital routes that would allow people to get around Limerick if they want, while also enabling them to park and ride into the city and back out, have been lacking but we are pushing hard for them in the strategy. I can see that villages like Castleconnell will be served both with better bus frequency and times and better rail frequencies. I know Iarnród Éireann is very committed to that. That would be a new feature where we would have proper and strong park and ride facilities, better frequencies and better rail line offers for people. That has come through very strong in the consultation in the transport strategy and it will be a feature of the new plan. We are committed to that.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I welcome everyone here and thank them for their contributions. Cycle lanes were just mentioned. I want to compliment all the councils on the work they have done and the funding that has come through in the last year. So many schemes have come through the county councils. They have tried to get them out to businesses and communities as quickly as possible. I am sure it has not been easy but it has been done very well. Many rural towns in my own county of Tipperary, such as Cahir and Cashel, and around the country have been enhanced on the back of the outdoor dining scheme. I compliment the work the councils have done throughout the pandemic.

I have four topics on which I seek some insight.

I ask our guests to comment on their involvement in housing. Is there more local authorities can give in terms of playing a role in building more houses? What is their view with regard to the Land Development Agency and what it will do?

Many people are discussing rural development and county development plans. I refer to the relationship of local authorities with Irish Water. It seems to me that the priorities of many local authorities within their county do not align with the priorities of Irish Water for the county. Is that difficult to align? Where do our guests see that going? It seems to me that the priorities of local authorities relate to economic growth whereas those of Irish Water relate to environmental aspects. We cannot attract people into rural Ireland, to counties such as Tipperary and elsewhere, unless Irish Water and local authorities are aligned. What is the view of the witnesses in respect of staffing issues and the ambitious targets that have been set out with regard to agreeing a way forward with Irish Water? What are their views in that regard internally going forward? Those targets set down in the White Paper are quite ambitious.

Reference was made to remote working hubs. It is really positive and very welcome. I am a huge supporter of such hubs in County Tipperary. It is all well and good to have remote working hubs in place, but there is a need for them to be managed. What role can be played by local authorities in the management of remote working hubs?

Several speakers touched on rural regeneration and the amount of funding that has come through the rural regeneration and urban regeneration funds. Obviously, costs have gone up in the past year but it seems to me that there is a difficulty in respect of the rural regeneration projects, rather than the urban regeneration projects. Is that the experience of county councils in terms of getting extra funding because of increased costs? I know Ms Farrelly stated that most projects are up and running but it seems that they are progressing more slowly than was hoped. Obviously, we are in the pandemic but, leaving that aside, do our guests believe there is a requirement for extra staff to get these projects moving? We are getting to a stage where groups are applying for money for phase 2 of projects but phase 1 has not necessarily been started. Is there a staffing requirement in that regard?

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Which of our guests wishes to answer those questions?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

I will come in on the Senator's questions. My colleagues may also wish to respond.

As regards housing, there are ongoing discussions with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage regarding what the new targets may be under the new plan for housing which I understand will be launched in the coming month. As to whether there is more we can do, we are trying to utilise every avenue for housing delivery, including direct build by the council, working with approved housing bodies, AHBs, and pursuing public private partnerships where they are a smart solution in certain circumstances. The Senator asked about the LDA. I do not think there can be too many actors involved in housing provision at this time in terms of ramping up housing supply. The LDA will play its part in that regard. It certainly has a big part to play in the provision of affordable rental and affordable housing. We are all mobilising to do more. Housing supply can be difficult to get off the ground but we in Fingal, for example, have sites on which we can deliver 3,000 units in the coming years. These are sites on which we are actively involved in planning or design and hope to get to site on most of them very quickly. We are already on site in some of the developments.

The Senator is absolutely right with regard to the alignment of priorities across all infrastructure providers. Land activation requires everybody to be working to the same programme and delivering on time in order to get development happening, whether that is commercial or housing. There is no doubt that active engagement with the likes of Irish Water to ensure it is doing the right projects in one's area at the right time is the only way we can get sites active. There is a significant amount of work ongoing in that area. I am not sure it is as difficult as the Senator suggested. More probably needs to be done with regard to communication to make sure priorities line up on time, but it has happened quite well in recent years.

I am not sure I will comment on the staffing issue relating to Irish Water. It is the subject of ongoing discussion and we might let that take its course in terms of the White Paper.

We are engaged in the management of remote working hubs but it is not our wish to staff them ourselves. Some of my colleagues may wish to come in on this issue. Ms Delaney may have further information on it. Most of the hubs will work to a business plan that allows the doors to be open, so to speak, but we assist and are very often involved in the overall management structure for the hubs to ensure they run efficiently.

As regards the rural regeneration and development fund and the urban regeneration and development fund, the most frustrating part of any project is design, planning and procurement. There is no avoiding it in respect of all these projects but it can be frustrating not to see work happening on the ground. We are working through that for many of the projects. Obviously, increased costs are a concern and something we will have to keep under review. The increase in cost happened quite quickly and we do not know where it will bottom out. Most projects are currently in the design phase, which can be slow. We use our Part 8 processes within local authorities to look after that.

I will ask my colleagues to come in on any issues they wish to address.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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On the issue of Irish Water, I know Ms Farrelly cannot comment on the staffing issues as they are being dealt with by the Workplace Relations Commission and I totally respect that, but does she think there is a need to keep a certain number of water staff if we are going to keep that engagement within Irish Water going forward?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

The engagement will happen through our development plan processes and local area plan processing throughout our counties. That is more to do with forward planning and how we look at the development of development land. It is not necessarily traditional Irish Water staff or water services staff; it is more to do with that forward planning piece and knowing what infrastructure is needed in order to service one's land. I hope that answers the Senator's question.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Farrelly.

Ms Anna Marie Delaney:

On the issue of the management of digital hubs, we are considering various funding streams that are available to fund the staffing and management of the hubs. Offaly County Council has accessed Enterprise Ireland funding through local enterprise offices for hubs, but other funding streams are becoming available under the Our Rural Future policy document and strategy which will allow for some funding of the hubs. I note there is a new national network of hubs which will assist with their co-ordination and running.

Photo of Matt ShanahanMatt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I have a general question for the local authority managers in respect of the escalation in build costs and the affordability of housing development. It is somewhat similar to a question asked by Senator Ahearn. Are local authorities again considering trying to keep some type of in-house build team rather than just project management? I refer to the retention of skills in terms of tradespeople. I have been speaking to several developers and smaller builders in recent months. It is becoming quite apparent that the current costs in the building sector are very unlikely to unwind because of planning regulations and specifications. It is going to make housing unaffordable, particularly outside Dublin. As I stated previously, in Waterford we do not have high-quality jobs like those available in Dublin and affordability is already a very significant issue despite the fact that the housing market has moved on. Affordability is the central problem. We are trying to get houses built under the affordability scheme. A significant amount of social housing is being planned but not a lot of private housing is being done, apart from one-off builds. What can local authorities do to ensure they have capacity in that regard? We are hearing that local authorities should be building. We know there is no capacity within local authorities currently to take on build projects.

It is all done by tender through third parties. Secondly, if we have an affordability problem, will we be building houses in the future under the local authority or is everything going to turn into tower blocks? Is that where the national development plan is going to end up?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly:

I will comment on the housing piece. It is probably unrealistic to think we will staff up completely to be in a position to build each and every home ourselves. The engagement with private builders and the tendering piece is probably the reality of where we are going.

On speed and making the procurement process more efficient, the construction industry is aware exactly of what our level of activity is going to be in the coming years. I expect it to scale up and to be in a position to assist us. I might ask my colleagues to comment on some of the other issues.

Dr. Pat Daly:

I will follow up on Ms Farrelly's points. Due to Brexit and distribution issues, we are currently having problems sourcing product, which is impacting on some contracts. However, the feeling is that as Brexit and distribution issues are addressed, as deliveries ease and product gets easier to find, some of the cost will come back in. That should alleviate some of the pressures. In time, as we emerge from the Covid pandemic and come through Brexit, the hope is that we will get the cost back in a relatively straight line and there will be more manageable inflation on some of the contracts. That is what we are hoping for. There are some good examples of that. We have a development arm in Limerick in terms of the public interest works. Even if councils want to get back into the building game directly, it is very difficult because the staffing is not there. We will see a lot more special purpose vehicles or joint venture type arrangements that will accelerate the delivery of housing in the future, but it will need to be properly thought out.

Certainly, in the case of the Limerick development draft plan, and it may be common to other development plans in trying to address and even get round the issues Senator Ahearn mentioned in respect of Irish Water, where service sites or small clusters emerge, a lot of that is ready-made for small builders and procurement through smaller framework contracts. We will seek to make some schemes available so that smaller builders can come in. They will be the right fit for such projects. The larger density projects will be built by the larger commercial interests.

There will probably be a blended approach. A one-size-fits-all approach will not be the solution. There will be individual solutions, not just in different locations but in different areas within locations. For example, county towns will have a different approach from a city or metropolitan area. It will be a matter of how we structure or organise around that rather than getting involved in building directly. There may might be a different organisation of the process.

Photo of Matt ShanahanMatt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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Dr. Daly mentioned small builders. According to a model used in Germany, small builders can come in and piggyback on projects. Is such a model being considered? I do not get the sense from the local authorities that that is happening in public procurement.

Dr. Pat Daly:

It is being considered. It will be a feature moving forward. In Limerick we have a regeneration programme where we are trying to bring forward such a model. It is not just about making space for small builders. It all has to be managed through public procurement, the tender process and the EU directive. If it can be constructed in such a way that there is a proper framework that can be used and is fair and transparent to people who wish to apply, then it makes sense. Even within that, we are trying include a social clause in procurement contracts whereby the builders or successful tenderers employ local people on projects. We are trying to address a few areas within those schemes. We always try to look at international best practice and bring that to bear where appropriate.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Do any other members wish to contribute? Senator Ahearn.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Dr. Daly touched on the issue of Irish Water. I will return to the point. He is from a neighbouring county so he might be familiar with some of the issues that I have raised. The reason I have talked about Irish Water is because many of the outcomes we are trying to deliver over the next ten or 20 years are based on financial support in water infrastructure.

Dr. Daly will be aware there are around 900 estates that have legacy issues in respect of water supports, waste water treatment and infrastructure. There are estates with such issues, for example, in the Glen of Aherlow on the border with County Limerick. Negotiations between Irish Water and the county council are ongoing at the moment. Is it Dr. Daly's view and that of county councils that responsibility for all of those legacy issues and the estates should be transferred to Irish Water?

Dr. Pat Daly:

I am not familiar with the detail of each individual case. There is a process within councils around taking charge and where responsibility lies or does not lie. The Senator's suggestion is one way of dealing with the issues. Many of the issues are going to be bound up in the negotiations generally between the Department, local authorities and Irish Water. As Ms Farrelly outlined, those negotiations are still ongoing. There will be space for them to be addressed but it will be an ongoing issue.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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If it is the case that local authorities have to retain some water services, it makes sense that they also retain some water staff. If some of the services are still being controlled by local authorities, who will provide the services if all staff move to Irish Water? That seems obvious me, but I am not sure it necessarily does to Irish Water. I know Dr. Daly is constrained in some form in what he can say, but it needs to be said. Are we going to tell roads people they have to provide water services now? I do not think that would go down well. If services are going to be retained in local authorities, there must be a serious conversation about ensuring there are water experts in local authorities to deal with that. I appreciate Dr. Daly's response.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions for Dr. Daly. First, I commend Dr. Daly and the staff in Limerick City and County Council. They have done the best they can in the past year, which has been very difficult for everyone. They have done a really good job. Limerick itself is looking well at the moment. I was there at the weekend. It is buzzing again for the first time in a long time. It is great to see.

I have a few queries on the living city initiative. Obviously, there is a huge Georgian centre in Limerick and a medieval centre around the Nicholas Street area. What could the Government do to make it easier to bring many of those properties back into use? I know Dr. Daly said quite a few properties have been brought back into use. I believe the total is 25. I have seen some of them myself. The quality is excellent and the properties have been finished very well. How do we make it easier for those properties to be brought back into use? As Dr. Daly will be aware, there is a lot of dereliction, particularly in the Georgian area and Nicholas Street. Although many of the properties on Nicholas Street have been addressed, there is a lot more to do there.

My second question concerns Arthur's Quay. Is there any specific plan to do something with Arthur's Quay? We need to reimagine the city in light of the Covid pandemic and the fact we are emerging from it.

On the issue of the Cleeve's site, would the local authority consider putting social and affordable housing on the Cleeve's site? To be honest, I do not see any other potential development for that area.

My final question concerns infrastructure and the very welcome redevelopment of O'Connell Street. Has the council had any significant discussions or does it plan to change the initial development plan? Obviously, the plan was agreed before the Covid-19 pandemic and things have changed during the pandemic. Will there be any changes to the outcome of the redevelopment of O'Connell Street and the surrounding area?

Dr. Pat Daly:

I thank the Chairman for his kind words. We are happy to pass them on to colleagues. In respect of the living city initiative there are two aspects to consider. We could look at the time bands within it, what buildings fall into it and what buildings could be included. A study of the impact across the sites and the city may be beneficial in that respect. We could also look at the tax treatment within the scheme, specifically a potential increase in allowances or, as Mr. Shakespeare and Ms Farrelly mentioned previously, a possible conversion to a grant mechanism. There is an opportunity in the scheme. To get it to the scale people are talking about, it would need a rethink and a part overhaul. However, it could withstand that. It is probably the last of that particular type of urban regeneration programme that could benefit from a rethink or a tweak. It is perhaps something to look at as we go into the budget cycle towards the end of the year. With some changes, strong communication and perhaps some local management, it could work very well.

Arthur's Quay is a sister site adjacent to the Opera site in Limerick. We are working with a number of partners at the site regarding how it could be developed. That work is ongoing. I believe there are opportunities. Abutting that site is the site for the university campus in the city centre. There is a ring of development emerging. Arthur's Quay will be redeveloped as part of that programme, which is exciting because one can see where the city centre is nearly shifting down to that riverside area and the waterfront, which was supported under the urban regeneration and development fund and the Government's schemes. Limerick received some €116 million to make that happen. It will be a significant project.

The Cleeves' site is in master planning and the consultants are looking at that. I imagine they will look at all options around residential, mixed use and commercial, and how that mix will be. It will most definitely be looked at for social and affordable.

On the infrastructure of O'Connell Street, we are on-site and we are disrupting Limerick city centre a little bit at the moment. I am sure our traders are hopeful. They have been very patient so far and with a little bit more patience we will get the benefit. There have not been many changes because we are working to the panning permission on it and we must be careful of it. The revitalisation project was designed to cater for more pedestrianisation, a reduced thoroughfare, a specific public transport lane, a reduction to one motor lane from the current two lanes and a lot more paving animation on the public side. Once we get through the works and people begin to see each phase emerge, hopefully they will be very impressed and happy with it. It will really future-proof the main street in Limerick. It will be quite exciting. I hope I have answered the members' questions.

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Daly. That concludes our consideration of the matter for today. I thank all members of the delegation from the County and City Management Association for assisting the committee today. It is clear from the discussion and the range of their responsibilities that they have an impact on enterprise, trade and employment throughout the State. We may well wish to engage with them again on this issue in the future. The committee will continue our consideration of the general matter again. I thank the witnesses for attending.

The joint committee will adjourn until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 July 2021. On Wednesday, 30 June 2021, the select committee will meet at 9.30 a.m. to consider the Revised Estimates for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for 2021 with the Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar. I thank the members for their participation in today's meeting under exceptional circumstances. Obviously, we have a difficult time trying to conduct meetings during Covid. I thank members for attending, it is much appreciated.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.23 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 July 2021.