Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 7 October 2020

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection

Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020: Discussion

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I ask members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the recording equipment. The last meeting was held in private session on Monday morning and one item which was discussed was the election of a Vice Chairman. Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh was deemed elected and I congratulate him and look forward to working with him.

I welcome the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Heather Humphreys. She is accompanied by her officials Ms Dearbháil Nic Giolla Mhicíl, principal officer, and Mr. Henry Fottrell, assistant principal officer. The Minister must leave at 9.45 a.m. to attend business in the Dáil at the Convention Centre, at which stage Mr. Fottrell will participate.

The committee has invited the Minister before it to discuss the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020 as it is clear that these matters are of huge significance as we are just over 2,000 hours away from the end of the Brexit transition period and subsequent withdrawal of the UK from the European Union.

Ireland and the United Kingdom have had a long history of reciprocal co-operation regarding social security and on many other matters. These arrangements are the bedrock of relations between our two states. This relationship of mutual benefit and co-operation serves both Irish and British people extremely well. From January we must continue to develop and deepen that overarching relationship. However, amid the uncertainty of Brexit all eventualities must be planned for. These are important concerns which impact upon the lives of people on an everyday basis and all aspects of our economy and society. I thank the Minister for being with us.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of evidence they are required to give to a committee. If in the course of committee proceedings they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for the invitation to come here to discuss the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020. This is my first appearance before the committee and I want to take the opportunity to congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and to say that I look forward to working with him and all the members in the time ahead in my role as Minister with responsibility for social protection and rural and community development. It is a broad brief but I think there are great synergies between the two Departments. Together with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O’Brien, I want to work with the committee. We do not have a monopoly on good ideas and while I know we will not always agree on everything I hope we will be able to work constructively with the committee to progress proposals which will deliver real benefits for people across the country.

I have Private Members' business in the Dáil at 10 a.m. so it will be a short visit this morning but I understand I will be back next week and the following week on the Revised Estimates for both Departments and that will allow for more detailed discussion on the wider aspects of both briefs.

Coming back to the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020, there are now just 85 days remaining until 31 December.The Government and the EU remain steadfast in our efforts to secure a negotiated outcome on the future relationship with the UK. However, we have been planning for all scenarios.

To underpin the readiness measures required at the end of the transition period, the Government approved the preparation of a scheme for the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020, known as the 2020 Brexit omnibus Bill. Many of the provisions reflect the legislation enacted before the original expected Brexit date of 29 March 2019. The Bill underlines the common travel area arrangements formalised in a memorandum of understanding signed by both Governments on 8 May 2019 and ensures the rights and entitlements of Irish and British citizens which remain under this long-standing agreement.

The overarching aim of this legislation is to address the wide range of complex issues that could arise for citizens and businesses post transition. Parts 14 and 15 of the Bill fall within my remit and I will outline each of these in turn.

I will first speak to Part 14.A key area of concern is the impact of Brexit on those current reciprocal arrangements for social insurance, which includes pensions and social assistance, being means tested schemes linked to residency rights, and child benefit between Ireland and the UK, including Northern Ireland.

Part 14 sets out the amendments to the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 2005 in order to maintain the status quo under the common travel area arrangements, which build on work already completed by the Department, which has resulted in a new agreement on social security with the UK. This was possible due to the unique nature of the common travel area and the associated rights and privileges which it provides and will continue to provide for Irish and British citizens in each other’s countries. This agreement was signed 1 February 2019 and passed through the necessary parliamentary ratification processes in both Ireland and the UK during March 2019. Under the terms of the agreement existing arrangements with regard to recognition of and access to, social insurance entitlements will be maintained in both jurisdictions. This means that the rights of Irish citizens living in Ireland to benefit from social insurance contributions made when working in the UK and to access social insurance payments if resident in the UK are protected and maintained.

There are approximately 132,000 people in receipt of a UK state pension living in this country and approximately 1,000 people receiving child benefit payments from the UK for children residing in Ireland. There are 27,100 people residing in the UK who are in receipt of a contributory State pension from Ireland. Just over 900 people residing in the UK are in receipt of full rate child benefit payments from this Department. These payments are in respect of 1,950 children, 97% of whom reside in Northern Ireland. A further 920 people residing in the UK are in receipt of child benefit supplement payments, in respect of 2,015 children, 98% of whom reside in Northern Ireland. The work undertaken to date is to ensure the continuation of these payments.

The provisions of Part 14 are as follows: to allow for the Minister to make an order to provide for the implementation of a signed agreement which has not yet been ratified; and to enable the Department to continue to share data with UK operators for the purposes of the recovery of benefits and assistance arrangements. This will ensure that specified benefits paid to an injured person by my Department following an accident can be recouped from a UK based compensator, just as before; and provides for other technical amendments to insert specific references to the UK into a number of sections of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 2005 which include references to EU payments.

Specifically, these ensure the continuation of the existing arrangements in the case of persons receiving an invalidity pension from Ireland who become entitled to a UK state retirement pension; the continuation of the recoupment of supplementary welfare allowances paid by my Department to persons awaiting UK payments; and that island allowances can continue to be paid to persons who rely on an equivalent primary UK payment to support their entitlement. In addition, UK child benefit will continue to be disregarded in the means test for social assistance schemes.

Part 15 of the Bill amends the Protection of Employees (Employers’ Insolvency) Act 1984 which provides for the insolvency payments scheme. The scheme covers wage-related entitlements of employees who are employed in Ireland by an employer who has become insolvent in Ireland or another EU member state. After the end of the transition period, employers in a state of insolvency under the laws of the UK will not fall within the scope of the Act. That means employees of those employers, who work and pay their social insurance in Ireland, would no longer be covered by the protections set out in the Act unless the amendments set out in this part of the Bill are made.

The amendments in this part of the Bill are to ensure those employees will continue to be covered by the scheme after Brexit. The amendments in this part provide for updates to existing definitions in respect of employees employed, or habitually employed, in Ireland and whose employers are made insolvent under the laws of the UK so that they continue to be covered by the scheme, technical matters concerning the date of the insolvency and the amounts certified by the actuary and that the Minister may, by regulation, provide for the transfer of data to the UK for the purpose of carrying out the functions of the Act.

Given the economic uncertainties which may prevail if no deal is reached in the future relationship negotiations, and indeed in the current Covid-19 scenario, it is vital that we continue to provide this protection to workers in Ireland and that is why these amendments are being introduced.

This legislation is an essential part of the whole-of-Government preparations for Brexit. I thank the Chair and the members of the committee for allowing me to outline my Department’s legislative planning. I appreciate the co-operation of this committee, and its support, to ensure that we can get this Bill enacted by 31 December. I thank everyone for their attention and I am happy to answer questions.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister. We will try to give as many members as possible the chance to ask the Minister questions directly, and then we will ask further questions of the officials. I will allocate four minutes for questions and answers in the initial contributions. I call Deputy Ó Cuív.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. The Minister has provided us with a detailed Bill, but do I take it that its objective is, quite simply, to retain the status quo? I refer to the system of arrangements we have had in the context of the European Union now continuing in respect of our relationship with the UK, both Northern Ireland and the island of Britain. I ask the Minister to outline to us how many countries we have bilateral social welfare arrangements with outside of the European Union. Many people do not understand that there are many countries around the world where they can build up contributions and then use them here for their pension entitlements. Will the Minister also explain the difference between Regulation EC 883/2004 and these bilateral arrangements? Is there a big difference between our arrangements with the European Union and our arrangements with the rest of the world, including, for example, America and Australia?

My time is short, so I will make one final comment. In the context of Brexit, we were told that planes would not fly and many other things. Now, however, when we are coming to the edge of the cliff, we have found that life will go on with or without an agreement on Brexit. We all hope that there will be agreement, but life will go on regardless and we will have to make arrangements in that context. I am glad that this aspect is going to be absolutely seamless for those in receipt of social welfare. I state that because every one of us, particularly in the west of Ireland, is used to a mix of contributions, with America and the UK being the two major countries involved.

The only complaint I have concerns the bad service which the Minister's Department seems to experience in getting the details of people's contribution records when those are sought from the United Kingdom to supplement records here. That has nothing to do with the Minister's Department, but during the negotiations with her British counterpart I hope that the Minister will raise this issue. In this day of computers, it should be possible to be able to transfer a record within 24 hours. It often takes months to get those records now and that not is not fair to people who are entitled to benefits.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Ó Cuív and I echo his comments regarding the turnaround times, which can be horrendous.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the question. This legislation is to ensure that the status quoremains and that everything happening between Ireland and the UK will continue to happen after Brexit. That is the most important aspect. What we are dealing with now is the back end of the work to ensure that people on the ground can continue to receive their payments and benefits seamlessly. That is the purpose of this Bill.

Arrangements with the EU are more comprehensive than other bilateral agreements, including, for example, with the USA. The arrangements we have with the UK mirror those with the EU. I do not have a figure for the number of bilateral agreements that we have and I will have to respond later to Deputy Ó Cuív with an answer. I honestly do not know how many we have-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It would be good if we could get it, because it is public knowledge that many people do not realise when they come to the pension age that all these contributions can be worth a lot of money to them.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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That is a good idea, and we could make those entitlements better known, perhaps through this committee or perhaps via the Deputy's own endeavours. I will find out the number of agreements. My official thinks it is about 12. It is no harm, however, to let people know that those arrangements exist with other countries-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can we get the countries as well?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We will get the list and forwarded to the Deputy. It is certainly worth letting people know about this issue. Regarding the delays in getting information from the UK, such as social insurance contributions, I understand that is an issue and I am aware of the problem. We will ask the UK authorities, in this age of modern technology, if they could pass over those records more quickly. It is annoying for people waiting for payments to have to wait for that information from the UK.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for that answer and I call Deputy Kerrane.

Photo of Claire KerraneClaire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief because I want to allow my colleague, Deputy Paul Donnelly, to step in. I appreciate that the Minister has been clear in stating that the status quowill remain regarding social welfare payments. Regarding the secondary payment, the winter fuel payment, which many people living here receive - it is the English version of the fuel allowance - I want to make sure that will be protected. Turning to the Protection of Employees (Employers’ Insolvency) Act 1984, I understand that the Minister is stating that Irish employees left redundant by an English company based here will be covered by the insolvency payments scheme. I assume that the onus of paying for that will fall on the Irish authorities

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it will.

Photo of Claire KerraneClaire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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If the existing suspension of redundancy provisions is extended, then Brexit happens and we have a situation where an English company, with employees here, becomes insolvent, is it possible that those workers could get access to redundancy payments, even if the suspension is ongoing? If they were to move to another job, would that redundancy provision be protected for them?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Regarding redundancy, because the UK will no longer be in the EU different rules will apply to companies based in the UK but employing people here. We want to ensure, therefore, that staff working and paying their PRSI contributions here will get their full entitlements under our legislation. That is why we are ensuring that we have this agreement and that commitments will have to be honoured. Staff who work in this country, however, will get benefits from our redundancy payments.

Photo of Claire KerraneClaire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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The redundancy scheme is suspended at the moment. If that were to continue and a UK-based company goes out of business, would employees based here be able to access their redundancy entitlements? If something like that were to happen after Brexit, and the insolvency was because of Brexit, would it be possible for those employees to access redundancy payments, even though the scheme is suspended?

Given Brexit and its impact, is there a possibility that they would be able to access their redundancy or that they could move on to another job and have that redundancy entitlement protected?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There are rules for the extended redundancy. All workers' rights have been protected under the extension. If a worker went to work somewhere else and was subsequently made redundant, then the workers' rights are protected even though it was extended. It has been extended now to November, although I do not have the date off the top of my head. Workers' rights are protected and we will ensure their rights continue to be protected on that basis.

Photo of Claire KerraneClaire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I also asked about the winter fuel payment.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I have a note on the winter fuel payment from the Department for Work and Pensions in the United Kingdom. It is a tax-free lump sum payment to eligible people to help towards their winter heating costs. It is a lump sum payment between £100 and £300. In most cases, it is paid automatically between November and December. As of winter 2012-13, people who live in the EEA or Switzerland who have a genuine and sufficient link to the UK are potentially eligible to receive the winter fuel payment regardless of whether they previously had entitlement to it while living in the UK. This change occurred following a 2011 European Court of Justice ruling. Before 2012-13 only people who had entitlement to the winter fuel payment prior to moving overseas were eligible. The Department in the UK published statistics to show that in winter 2017-18 a total of 78% of the winter fuel payments made to EEA countries and Switzerland were made to people living in the Republic of Ireland. This amounted to approximately 31,200 payments. As I understand it, that payment will continue.

Photo of Joe CareyJoe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will be brief as well. I wish to express my support for this legislation. It is important that the status quo is maintained and that we enjoy equal rights between Irish people and UK citizens. I compliment the Minister on the way she has presented today in a clear and open fashion to the committee. When does the Minister envisage that the Bill will come before the House? Will it be in the coming weeks? When does she expect that to happen?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We want the Bill to come through as soon as possible. We have to wait until we get our slot. I expect it will be in the next few weeks.

Photo of Marc Ó CathasaighMarc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister for the presentation made today. It was useful. It has clearly been underpinned by a great amount of work by the Department. The one comment or question I have is about the principal of reciprocity or the reciprocal arrangement. A great deal has been happening with Brexit and we have seen ample preparation on the European and Irish sides. This has not always been reflected on the UK side. A significant amount of work has gone in here to ensure we are well provided for in terms of the social welfare arrangements. Is the Minister happy that the same amount of work and preparation is taking place on the UK side so that Irish citizens living in the UK will be similarly protected as we get to the far side of Brexit?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Deputy Ó Cathasaigh on being appointed Vice Chairman of the committee. As I said earlier, I look forward to working with him and the rest of the committee.

To be fair, in this case we have had a good deal of toing and froing between the UK authorities and us in reaching this agreement. We have agreed the convention with the UK. These provisions are to ensure that we can operate the agreement, which we call the convention, regardless of what happens. In fairness to those responsible in the UK, they have been co-operative with us. I remember my predecessor, Senator Regina Doherty, saying that when our officials were working with their counterparts prior to getting the whole agreement together, they had been co-operative. They agreed the common travel area before any withdrawal agreement was in place and they were happy to come with this. I am satisfied that Irish citizens living in the UK should get all the payments to which they are entitled.

Photo of Paul DonnellyPaul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of questions. One relates to people who are on the southern side of the Border but living in the North and their social welfare payments. How will that work post Brexit?

Head 15 provides for the Minister to provide for transfer of data to the UK by regulation for the purposes of carrying out the functions of the Act. The data would be exchanged by relevant officers and so on. What type of data would be transferred from the South to Britain and the North?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The type of data we are talking about are social insurance records. The provision would allow the payment of the necessary benefits that people are entitled to. Initially we had thought we would need a data protection change but we did not as it relates to the law enforcement directive, which has its own data protection requirements. We can make this agreement through an exchange of letters. The purpose is so that we can have recovery of benefits and assistance. Furthermore, where, for example, someone receives a benefit and gets a claim from an insurance company and the insurance company is based in the UK, then we can get that information if we need it. That is the purpose of it.

Deputy Donnelly asked about Northern Ireland. I said earlier that approximately 98% of some of the payments go to people who are resident in Northern Ireland and working here. We are satisfied that with this arrangement the people in Northern Ireland will get all the benefits to which they are entitled. That was probably the overriding issue because that is where most of them go and we want to ensure they get all their entitlements.

Photo of Paul DonnellyPaul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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This week the British Parliament is discussing what some people see as the most draconian legislation that has ever been seen for the use of murder, rape and sexual assault by British state security services. I am deeply concerned. What protections do we have to ensure any data or that type of information being passed over on individuals from the Twenty-six Counties do not get into the hands of the British state security services?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There are certain conditions around sharing data and they form part of the agreement. We are satisfied that the purpose of the data relating to Part 15 of the Act concerns the insolvency payments scheme. For example, authorities would need to know the hours worked and the wages. We need certain information to make the necessary payments. I am sure those on the other side need certain information so that workers will get their entitlements. I am satisfied that the data will be used for the purpose for which they are intended.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and wish her well in her new portfolio. I have three brief questions. Has the Bill to be passed by a certain date? Is there urgency on the date for the Bill to be passed and to go through all Stages in both Houses? We have discussed reciprocal arrangements. If the date of the pension age changes in Ireland, will this Bill have any effect? Does it cover that aspect of it? Will it have consequences for people if the age changes from 66 to 67 or 68 years?

The Minister said that the provision in the Bill relating to the memorandum of understanding on fraud control is not required now. Why is the control of fraud provision relating to social welfare payments not now required in the Bill?

Am I reading that correctly?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Progress continues to be made between Departments, the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Attorney General on the drafting of the Bill. While the Dáil Business Committee decided to grant a waiver to the normal pre-legislative scrutiny process in respect of the Bill, it has asked all relevant Ministers to brief their appropriate committees by 9 October. It is expected that the final version of the Bill will be brought to Government shortly thereafter for approval, to publish and to bring before the Oireachtas. It will be essential ensure swift progress of this legislation to minimise any uncertainty for businesses. There are only 80 plus days, or 2,000 hours, as mentioned by the Chairman, remaining before Brexit so we need to get this Bill through as quickly as possible.

The pension age is not impacted by this legislation. I will bring legislation before the House before the end of this year to provide that the pension age will not increase to 67 next year as anticipated. It will remain at 66 until the commission on pensions, which we are in the process of establishing, has reviewed the matter and made a recommendation on it to Government. To clarify, people who will reach age 66 by 1 January next should apply for their pension now. I think some people were a bit unsure about that so I take this opportunity to get that information out there.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome that clarification. Will the Minister respond on the fraud aspect of the legislation?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Head 14.4 relates to the transfer of data between Ireland and the UK for the purpose of the continued operation of the Ireland-UK memorandum of understanding concerning cross-Border social welfare fraud and control activities. The Department had initially understood that a legislative amendment would be required in this regard but recent advice from the Office of the Attorney General states that is not the case. The matter can be dealt with by an exchange of letters.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Many older people will be reassured in regard to the pension age issue. It is a matter that has caused a lot of anxiety for people.

Photo of Mark WallMark Wall (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for her presentation on the Bill. Some of my questions have been already asked.

On the UK fuel allowance, I have spent many an hour on the telephone to Newcastle on behalf of many constituents trying to get their details. I ask that the Minister and her officials seek greater co-operation with their counterparts in the UK because there has been long delays in getting that information through, as other Deputies and Senators have said. I welcome that this legislation protects that payment. As mentioned by Deputy Ó Cuív we need to get information out there because many people qualify for this payment in Ireland but are not aware of it. I have come across many of them over the past number of years. It is a substantial payment. As mentioned by the Minister, it is between £100 and £300 sterling and so it would make a difference to those who have an entitlement to it. I ask that the Department encourage its counterparts in the UK to be more co-operative in this regard. As stated by the Chairman and the Minister, respectively, there are only 2,000 hours or 85 days to withdrawal. If there is no agreement, this Bill will still be agreed by both sides. We need to get that message out today because a substantial number of people here are entitled to UK pensions. I welcome that this Bill will secure those payments for them and I again thank the Minister for bringing it before us today.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We hope matters will be resolved as we get closer to the withdrawal date and that a deal will be agreed. The purpose of this Bill is to ensure that in a no-deal scenario, we will have this agreement in place with the UK. We welcome that the UK has co-operated with us in this regard.

On the winter fuel allowance, there will be no change. People can continue to claim it because of this reciprocal agreement with the UK. We will raise the issue of the delay in processing claims or providing information.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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My questions have also been asked so I do not propose to delay the meeting. I welcome the Minister and acknowledge her engagement on all issues. I appreciate her getting back to me on issues.

I welcome the clarification in regard to the fuel allowance. I acknowledge the Minister's statement in regard to the pension. As stated by the Chairman, it is good news that people can go ahead and make their applications.

In terms of all of the changes being made, will there be a financial cost to the State?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There is much work going on but I do not think there will be any direct cost to my Department as a result of what is being provided for on passage of this legislation. We are maintaining the status quoand making sure that people continue to get their entitlements. Much work has been done on the legislation by my officials but there is no cost beyond that which would be the case if the UK were to remain in the EU.

Photo of Róisín GarveyRóisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister. It is great to have her here. In the short time she has been a Minister she has done amazing work. I thank her for the supports she has provided for rural Ireland. As spokesperson for rural development I look forward to working with her and the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien. I hope this Bill passes smoothly or without too much hassle.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am aware the Minister needs to leave soon, but that here officials will remain with us. Before she leaves, I have a question for her. Will there be a public information campaign on the consequences of Brexit and the impact in regard to rights, entitlements and so forth, not just by the Minister's Department but across the whole of government. Currently, everybody's focus is on Covid-19. Is it proposed to have a public information campaign to prepare people for what will effectively be a no-deal Brexit regardless of what happens in the next 2,000 hours?

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman will be aware that there has been a ramping up of the campaign. I have heard on radio the call for businesses to get ready for Brexit, which I am sure the Chairman has heard too. In my previous role as Minister with responsibility for business, that Department had a massive campaign and held workshops. As part of those workshops, officials from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection attended to provide people with information on social protection entitlements.

I am happy to engage with the committee. It is about letting people know that the status quoremains and people will retain their entitlements. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, we can broaden that out in regard to the other countries when we have this bilateral arrangement. I am happy to work with the committee on that.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I accept that the Government is doing a lot to try to engage business. I am talking about citizens. For example, with the best will in the world I believe there will be a prolonged delay in getting information from Newcastle after 1 January. I accept the Minister's reassurances here but I personally would be very concerned about GDPR, data protection and so forth. In regard to those persons who will become eligible for a pension from 1 January surely we should be actively encouraging them to apply now if they have a mixed contribution so that we can get that information in advance.

That message is not getting out there and I think there is a responsibility on the Department and across the Government to look at this issue and other broader issues across the Government that impact on individual citizens and not just business.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We have all of the information on our website. I take the point that we need to reassure people that if they have worked in the UK and are now living in Ireland there are benefits they can get and they should make sure to check that out. I do not know if we ever do campaigns around that. I am not sure. Perhaps we have done in the past. We have general campaigns on what people are entitled to, but we will consider this specific matter. The Chairman is absolutely correct. People will be concerned about whether they will still get their UK pensions. That is one thing they are worried about. We will reassure them. There is no reason we could not do an information campaign as part of the overall Brexit information which will be provided through the Government over the next number of months. Minds will be focused as we get closer to the date.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister. I will release her from the committee because I know she has to get to the Convention Centre. Mr. Fottrell will join us. If any other members indicate regarding specific questions I am happy to take them now. I thank the Minister.

Photo of Heather HumphreysHeather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee. I will see members again.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Do members have any supplementary questions for the officials? I have a couple of brief questions. If it is not possible to answer them today, responses may be submitted in writing afterwards.

There are approximately 132,000 people in Ireland in receipt of a UK pension. How many have received top-up payments from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection?

As we know, the common travel area goes back to 1924 and predates the establishment of the European Union. We have reciprocal arrangements in place. However, from my experience the common travel area has never been properly recognised after the initial period in terms of the habitual residency condition. In respect of the habitual residency condition, initially a different approach was taken to British citizens residing here. However, in more recent times there has been a very rigid interpretation of that. What will be the treatment of the habitual residency condition test from 1 January?

The convention on social security between the Government and the UK authorities, which was signed on 1 February 2019, recognises the schemes that were in place at that time. Since then, the parental benefit scheme, the unemployment benefit schemes for the self-employed and the pandemic unemployment payment have been introduced here. They are not covered by that convention. I would like reassurance that citizens of this State or people who have built up an entitlement in this State will continue to be able to draw on those entitlements from 1 January 2021.

What arrangements are now in place to deal with the all-Ireland free travel scheme from 1 January? Does legislation need to be introduced? Why is that not referenced in the primary legislation that we have?

Colleagues referred to Newcastle and the reciprocal arrangements that are in place. The difficulty for all of us is that there seems to be a bottomless pit once a request goes in to Newcastle. My concern, as I outlined to the Minister, concerns GDPR issues and the fact there is now a third country state that does not have GDPR recognition with the European Union. We have seen the various interpretations of data protection legislation in Ireland. Could that delay the process of releasing information and deny entitlements to individuals residing here, or vice versain terms of Irish citizens with mixed contributions making a claim in the UK?

Ms Dearbháil Nic Giolla Mhicíl:

I thank the Chairman. I will start with the last question and work back through them. The issue with delays in getting records is not something we have any control over, unfortunately. We simply do not know whether the delays will be worse after Brexit. We hope not. As the Minister said, when we were drafting the convention we had very good co-operation with our UK counterparts and we hope that will continue after Brexit. I expect that it will. All I can tell the committee is that we hope there will not be any further delays. We will not know until things start to operate in the new environment. We will see how things work out then.

The all-Ireland free travel scheme is a non-statutory scheme. There are no legislative provisions for it as it is, which is why there is nothing in the Bill about it. The main issue concerns the contract with Translink to produce the cards for the all-Ireland free travel scheme. Our colleagues have worked with it in order to update the contract to ensure it is GDPR compliant. Again, the issue is the UK being a third country after Brexit. That is in hand but no legislation is required.

When we started the work on Brexit preparations, it was obvious that not very much was written down about the common travel area although it had existed since 1924. There are two key documents. The first is an overall common travel area agreement that was signed in May of last year between the UK and Ireland. It set out the range of issues that the common travel area covers, including our social welfare issues as well as health, education and the ability to move and work between the two jurisdictions. The convention on social security deals specifically with the social welfare payments which were covered under the EU regulations and which are now covered under the new convention.

As the Chairman said, there was a provision regarding the habitual residence test in the legislation at one stage. I understand it provided that a person who lived within the common travel area for three years would be regarded as habitually resident. That was changed a number of years ago. Nothing we are doing now changes the rules regarding the habitual residence condition. It will continue to operate as it does at the moment.

I am not sure we have figures on the number of UK pensioners living in Ireland who are in receipt of top-ups. We can certainly get that information and send it to the committee.

As the Chairman said, the convention lists specific schemes and they are the schemes that are covered. The convention was drafted and passed through the legislative processes of the two countries in time to be ready for the original Brexit date of 29 March last year. As the Chairman said, some new schemes have been introduced since that time. We always knew that was a possibility and likewise we knew the UK might introduce new schemes over the course of the agreement. It was our intention to keep the agreement up to date to include any new schemes that come online.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There will not be a diminution in regard to any of those schemes. I will leave a final comment with the witnesses. The habitual residency condition is something that could come back to haunt us if, down the road, we take a different approach from that taken in the UK in terms of the test.

I do not think it is an issue in the short term but it will have to be looked at again.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding was that they did not have the same habitual residence test in England as they have here. Our habitual residence test applies to anybody coming here from anywhere and asks people to prove their centre of interest is this State. I have discussed this with people in Britain who are familiar with welfare and my understanding is that they do not have the equivalent. When a person goes to England and claims welfare, they do not have our habitual residence test, which we introduced to stop welfare shopping or people coming here for the purpose of welfare. As the Department can confirm no doubt, back in the day there was an arrangement made with St. Brendan's Safe Home Ireland. If it vouched for a person then it had to produce as much evidence as it could but if somebody was picked up off the streets then it was presumed that St. Brendan's was fixing him or her up and that a person's main centre of interest was going to be here. I understand the arrangement worked quite well. We all are aware of problems with people coming from America, England or wherever proving habitual residence. It is the only case, to my knowledge, where one does not get anything not even supplementary welfare. One cannot apply for housing, a medical card or anything else until one proves habitual residence. My understanding is that was an Irish arrangement to deal with an Irish problem.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, and it is a particular issue for many people who seek to spend their retirement back home in Ireland.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a little bit of mischievous fun when native speakers return and we are dealing with the Department in Irish and they are still saying they are habitual residents.

Ms Dearbháil Nic Giolla Mhicíl:

On the habitual residence condition, the arrangements with Safe Home Ireland are still in place. The Department's guidelines about how the condition operates include a specific section about people who have been assisted by Safe Home Ireland.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Our two big concerns are the implementation of some of these schemes such as the habitual residency condition, the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, and other entitlements. Also, there should be engagement between the Department officials and their counterparts in the UK in terms of the turnaround time from Newcastle.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We are not suggesting that it is part of the agreement. We suggest that when our officials are at the table and having very friendly meetings with their counterparts that they might just mention these matters to them.

Ms Dearbháil Nic Giolla Mhicíl:

Sure.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I clarify that that is the intention. We accept the legislation, the need for it and the need to expedite same. It would be useful if these issues were highlighted during bilateral engagements.

I thank the Minister, her officials and colleagues for their time. I thank the Minister and her officials for going through the issues with us. The meeting has been extremely useful and, hopefully, the Bill will progress through both Houses.

The joint committee stands adjourned until 10 a.m. on Monday, 2 November 2020 when the committee will meet in private session on the Microsoft Teams platform.

The joint committee adjourned at 9.55 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Monday, 2 November 2020.