Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I wish to advise the witnesses that any submission or opening statements that they make to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with our sound system.

I welcome all of our witnesses here this afternoon. I propose that the main witnesses speak for a total of five minutes, and if witnesses wish to share their speaking time they might indicate that to me and I will allocate two and a half minutes each. The presentations will be followed by a question and answer session, and each member may ask a question not exceeding three minutes. I would also ask members to wait until all presentations have concluded. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The first witness is from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Mr. Kevin Brady, principal officer. He is head of the heat and transport energy policy division, and he is sharing time with Ms Anna O'Sullivan. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Brady:

I might take the whole five minutes; it is easier that way.

I realise the committee has had a number of meetings on energy and climate targets, so I will just talk about bioenergy.

We all know that Ireland has a 16% target for renewable energy, and that we reached 9.5% in 2016. Of that renewable energy, 49% was from wind energy. The next largest portion, some 39%, was from bioenergy. Of that 39%, 25% is from biomass, 11% is from biofuels and 3% is from bio gas. Looking at each of the sectors, it is important to see where bioenergy is used. Some 2.3 percentage points of the 27% renewable electricity came from bioenergy, and some 5.1 percentage points of the 6.8% heat came from bioenergy. Even though it only represents 10% of the renewable electricity it accounts for 75% of renewable heat energy. Furthermore, almost all of the 5% renewable energy used in transport came from bioenergy. We are seeing that the majority of bioenergy is used in the heat and transport sectors and that there has been some penetration in the electricity sector.

National policy in terms of bioenergy is well set and has been laid out in the national mitigation plan, the energy White Paper and the draft bioenergy plan. The draft bioenergy plan is undergoing a strategic environmental assessment with a view to finalising it. All of the actions under the draft plan are being progressed. The key projects in the electricity sector are the refit and renewable electricity support schemes. In the transport sector there is the biofuels obligation scheme, BOS, and in the heat sector there is a new support scheme for renewable heat, which was formerly called the renewable heat incentive, RHI.

We are very familiar with the REFIT 3 scheme, so I will not go into that in much detail. The new renewable electricity support scheme, RESS, is currently in development. There was a public consultation which closed in November 2017 to which there were 1,250 responses. The design proposal for the scheme is being developed, with a final proposal to be brought to Government later this year. The introduction of the scheme will of course be subject to state aid clearance.

In the transport sector, the BOS, which has been in place for a number of years, now requires fuel suppliers to include 8% of fuel in petrol and diesel supplied in Ireland to be from biofuels. There is some double-counting so the figure is not a full 8%. The 8% target was introduced on 1 January 2017. We had a public consultation which closed in January which sought views on increasing that rate to 10% from 1 January 2019 and to circa 12% from 1 January 2020. There has been a relatively low level of indigenous biofuels used in Ireland; only 17.5% of the biofuels used in feedstock in 2016 came from indigenous sources. As the demand increases, not just in Ireland but across Europe, the opportunity for biofuel producers in Ireland will also increase.

In the heat sector, the new support scheme for renewable heat - formerly the RHI - was approved by Government in December 2017. Two key work streams are under way at the moment. One is the state aid process; we are at the pre-notification stage at the moment. The other is the development of the detailed terms and conditions. Deputies and Senators familiar with the scheme will see that we published a scheme overview which has been approved by Government on the website. The detailed terms and conditions are being developed by SEI for review and for the approval of the Minister. That will happen over the coming months.

We are working on the issue of how the support scheme for renewable heat and the renewable electricity support scheme will work in conjunction with each other to support combined heat and power. We are also looking at the potential for using bio methane, to be produced by anaerobic digestion and injected into the natural gas grid. This has not been supported under the current approved support scheme for renewable heat, but we are examining the different options in terms of how that could be supported in future.

This is a meeting on bioenergy, and I want to stick to that topic. I should not leave out the fact that there is an electrification piece around heat and transport as well, which we can talk about at a point in the future.

Bioenergy is already playing a role, and has a role to play across all three sectors. The State supports that through the new renewable electricity support scheme in the electricity sector, the biofuel obligation scheme in the transport sector, and primarily through the support scheme for renewable heat in the heat sector.

Dr. Ger Devlin:

I thank the committee and the Chair for the invitation to IrBEA to discuss the key issues we are dealing with today. Attending with me is Mr. Tom Bruton, who is head of policy in IrBEA and Mr. James Cogan, who is leading our new biofuel subgroup within the association.

IrBEA represents more than 200 members in the bioenergy space, from biomass supply to biomass technology, and in bio gas and liquid biofuels. Bioenergy itself is one of the largest sources of renewable energy in the EU. It has not factored so well from an Irish perspective, but the opportunities are great in that it is unique and can contribute to each of the targets, be it heat, transport or electricity. From an economic perspective the benefits of bioenergy are large, in that over 3,600 new permanent jobs in the bioenergy sector can be created if the targets we are trying to achieve are met. Some €1.5 billion of direct investment in this sector is achievable. Some 8,300 workers will be employed during construction and installation, and it will provide sustainable family farm incomes in the Irish agricultural sector. The energy import bill can also be reduced by 7.5% by the provision of a secure, competitive energy source for Irish homes and businesses.

The primary barriers to fulfilling bioenergy's real potential revolve primarily around the slow implementation of the support scheme for renewable heat. We feel that state aid is currently too slow and we would like to see it open for applications for 2018. Not enough effort has been directed towards developing bioenergy as a source of combined heat and power, and indeed district heating. We also have the slow implementation around the RESS. Currently it is at 22.7% and the target is 40%. Bioenergy is factored very poorly in subsidy schemes around electricity in previous years. There has been a lack of effort towards mobilising our indigenous biomass for these particular bioenergy markets. There is a slow increase around the BOS, which we will use to decarbonise our transport sector.

Our recommendations for the support scheme for renewable heat include the opening of applications from mid-2018, with a push to expedite the whole state aid approval process. We would also like to see improved tariffs post-2018 for a bigger uptake of bioenergy projects. Sustainability criteria should be in line with the renewable energy directive, RED 2. Robust eligibility criteria is key, and there should be a simple application and approval process for projects that get off the ground. Positive uptake will really only happen with the correct tariffs in place. We could follow the mainland United Kingdom as a very good example of how to make that happen. There should also be a low ongoing administration burden from that perspective. Allowing useful heat to cover the drying of wood is a key element that we would certainly lobby for.

Looking at the BOS, which applies to transport fuel, Ireland has only reached 5.2% in over ten years. We are hoping to close the gap, with another 5% in less than three years. That will be difficult. There has been low development because of the low deployment rates in biofuels across the transport fleet. Some 40% of all engine fuels are not currently included in the BOS. One of the recommendations that IrBEA made in the consultation response to the Department in January is that that 40% should be included; it is low-hanging fruit. Fuels in the aviation, agriculture, marine and construction sectors are not included in the BOS.

According to both the International Energy Agency and the European Commission, use of biofuels needs to grow by a factor of ten if we are to stay within the 2° climate change target. I believe we need to move to 12% biofuel. If the UK can move, Ireland will also follow. We will probably need to petition to the UK to make that happen.

In terms of recommendations on a RESS, we certainly need to see it implemented by 2019. However, the state aid issue needs to be expedited.

Technology options are key for bioenergy. We will not compete if it is technology neutral. All renewables can play a role, but specific technology options are key for bioenergy to be successful. Of course, that 40% baseline needs to be more ambitious. We have modelled on the basis that 55% is achievable while still driving down the cost of electricity for consumers.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We now come to the representatives of RECAP. I understand Mr. O'Carroll is sharing time with Mr. Sadlier. They have two and a half minutes each.

Mr. Joe O'Carroll:

I am grateful for the invitation to attend. RECAP stands for the Renewable Energy Consumers and Producers, which was formed towards the end of last year essentially to act as a coherent contact point for the Department and other State bodies in discussing the acceleration of climate action, particularly in the area of energy. Unfortunately, one of our members, Mr. Brian Britton, passed away last week. I wish to put on record our thanks to him for the phenomenal energy he put into establishing RECAP. He was one of few people who could pull together all strands of the industry.

RECAP members cover energy generation from all different renewable energy technologies. We also include consumer groups. This is in recognition that many of the foreign direct investment companies in Ireland have already signed up to the RE100, which is a commitment to source 100% of their energy from renewable sources. We are seeing a strong demand from consumers as well as, obviously, people active in the industry.

Since RECAP was formed we have made submissions to the RESS consultation, the enduring connections policy and the National Planning Framework. We continue to work proactively with a wide range of stakeholders. Our ultimate belief is that we need to work towards a 100% renewable energy target. It is only when we accept that this is the long-term goal that we will start to make all policy decisions and regulatory regime changes with a long-term goal in mind.

Over recent months we have seen a number of very positive announcements, including the climate emergency measures Bill, the commitment to the SSRH, the ending of grant aid for oil boilers etc. We are starting to see an acceleration of very welcome activity. We will need all these actions and more. It has taken us 30 years to get to about 10% renewable energy. We need to treble that over the next 12 years if we are to keep in line with our Paris commitments. It seems like a tall order, but we have the fastest growth rates for biomass. We have the second best wind resource in the EU, which will be the highest post-Brexit. We have solar radiation levels similar to much of Europe. We have a very skilled industry here capable of meeting those targets and making the necessary investments.

We see this as an opportunity rather than a compliance issue. I will give just one statistic. Over the course of the last year we imported €9.6 billion of energy products, €4 billion of which came from the UK, mostly in the form of oil and gas. To put that into context, it is about the same value of all of our food and drink exports to the UK. That gives an indication of the scale of activity.

Mr. Bill Sadlier:

RECAP welcomes the ambition of EirGrid as set out in the publication, Tomorrow's Energy Scenarios. We believe that a scenario somewhere between the "Low Carbon Living" and "Consumer Action" will materialise, requiring about 8 GW of additional renewable energy generation. To meet our energy needs and to ensure our security of supply the deployment of a blend of technologies will be vital to deliver a sustainable energy system. Separately we note the RESS consultation document proposed a range of RES-E scenarios between 40% and 55%. We believe the analysis used to underpin the RESS consultation document needs to be revisited.

We commissioned analysis by leading consultancy firm, Baringa, to assess the total cost of renewable energy to consumers in our pursuit of more penetration on the system. The analysis looked not just at the scale of the PSO, but incorporated the benefit and reduction in the wholesale power price. The Baringa modelling shows that the 55% RES-E scenario can be fully cost neutral to consumers with the right blend of technologies and flexibility measures. This effect gets even stronger under a 75% RES-E scenario. The perception of increased cost should not be a bar to weaning ourselves aggressively off fossil fuels.

In the coming months we will need to define a long-term decarbonisation plan for Ireland, which shifts the narrative away from focusing only the cost of renewable energy to also advocating the benefits. Ireland's decarbonisation plan needs to be underpinned by the socialisation of the energy system, focused on community engagement and ownership, and the removal of obstacles and project development uncertainties through long-term grid allocation planning and long-term RES option planning, both of which will attract long-term capital to the sector. We would welcome any questions from committee members.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the witnesses' brevity.

I call Mr. Mike Quinn, CEO of Ervia, the parent company of Gas Networks Ireland.

Mr. Mike Quinn:

I am the chief executive of Ervia. I am joined by Brendan Murphy, commercial director at Ervia, and Denis O'Sullivan, head of commercial at Gas Networks Ireland. I appreciate the opportunity to brief the committee on the work under way by Gas Networks Ireland to reduce the carbon concentration of gas supply in Ireland and to help meet challenging 2020 emissions reduction targets. I would like to outline to members the role that natural gas, renewable gas and Gas Networks Ireland can play in attaining those targets and in underpinning Ireland's energy security as we transition to a low-carbon economy.

In the longer term, Gas Networks Ireland believes that Ireland's annual emissions, currently 61 million tonnes per annum, could be reduced by up to 17.5 million tonnes by further utilising the gas network. Gas Networks Ireland is currently assessing or implementing many of the technologies to make this happen.

Natural gas is of strategic importance to Ireland, representing 30% of our country's primary energy mix. Some 688,000 homes and businesses in 20 counties throughout Ireland depend on it every day. Of particular importance is the demand for natural gas from foreign direct investment companies seeking to locate or expand in Ireland.

In starting to transition from natural gas to renewable gas, in 2018 Gas Networks Ireland will introduce renewable gas onto the Irish gas network for the first time. Our first renewable gas-injection site is under construction in Cush, County Kildare. It will receive gas from the anaerobic digestion of agricultural and food wastes and will have an initial capacity of 90 GWh per annum. Over the next five years we plan to construct six additional renewable gas-injection facilities with a total combined annual capacity of 1,450 GWh. To put it into perspective, this is enough energy to heat 145,000 homes with a 100% carbon-neutral fuel. By 2030 we are targeting to have 20% of total gas demand met by renewable gas, a figure supported by the SEAI report. This 20% of gas demand equates to 11,000 GWh - or sufficient renewable gas to meet the needs of every home currently using natural gas along with 50% of fuel requirements of the entire truck and bus fleet in Ireland.

Renewable gas also has the advantage of helping Ireland to address the emissions from our expanding agriculture sector. Using agricultural waste will not only create a new energy source, but will also allow us to achieve our potential as a food producer while mitigating agricultural emissions. Where renewable gas is burned in existing gas-fired power stations it will produce renewable electricity, but with minimal additional infrastructure required. Running just two of the existing gas-fired power stations on renewable gas would increase Ireland's renewable electricity by an additional 20%.

In terms of natural gas in the power generation sector, Ireland has made considerable progress in the development of renewable energy, predominantly electricity. However, this has only been possible by relying on secure, flexible and efficient natural gas electricity generators to partner intermittent renewable technologies, such as wind. Its vital role in guaranteeing security of our electricity supply is without question, with 52% of our electricity currently produced from natural gas on an annual basis. While considerable progress has been made in decarbonising electricity, an ambitious policy is required to ensure it meets its decarbonisation targets by 2050. An energy policy based on replacing heavy carbon emitters such as coal and peat with cleaner natural gas, combined with greater renewable energy use, makes sense.

Ireland will need to reduce emissions by 80% to 95% by 2050 to align with our Paris agreement commitments and European Union commitments. Gas Networks Ireland is currently assessing carbon capture and storage, CCS, for gas-fired power generation in Ireland, which is the only technology that can reduce power generation emissions at scale, while providing Ireland with the levels of inertia and system services required. Ireland could also achieve negative emissions in this sector by utilising our renewable gas resource with CCS, which is known as bioenergy carbon capture and storage, BECCS.

I now come to natural gas in the heat sector.

Of the 1.7 million occupied houses in Ireland, approximately 700,000 are heated by oil. Unlike gas, oil-fired homes currently have no pathway to become zero-carbon homes. Out of these homes, 300,000 are located in urban areas which already have natural gas and some 100,000 of them are actually located within 20 m of the existing gas network.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. P. J. McCarthy is chair of RGFI; Mr. Simon Shannon is in utilities procurement at Diageo International; and Mr. David Fitzgerald is sustainability engineer at Dairygold.

Mr. P.J. McCarthy:

The Renewable Gas Forum Ireland is an industry forum that represents the interests of the biogas industry in the whole island of Ireland. The RGFI represents the full supply chain of the renewable gas industry from the biogas producers, technology providers, academia, innovation and the end gas consumer. The RGFI is consumer led and is an advocacy body for all gas consumers and for members seeking to decarbonise. We take a consultative approach with Government agencies and Departments to find solutions and a cost-effective route to carbon-neutral pathways for decarbonising gas as a primary energy. The core objective of RGFI is to inform policy makers and decision makers of where solutions can be found.

Under consumer demand and climate change obligations, approximately 60% of total heat energy consumption in Ireland is provided by gas, 80% of which is consumed by our large manufacturing and processing companies. The ETS manufacturing processing companies operate in Ireland predominantly in two sectors, being the FDIs in agrifood and the beverage sector. The proposed policy in the energy White Paper excluded the ETS manufacturing sectors, perhaps unintentionally, and it states that they are not accessible to the renewable support heat scheme. This will significantly impact on competitiveness and on attracting and retaining FDI industries and jobs in this country and will severely impact the agrifood sector in its drive to decarbonise and compete internationally with its consumer products. There are €13.6 billion in exports crying out for solutions to decarbonising. Sustainable energy is now a mandatory criterion for the majority of these companies as they look to secure new markets and competitiveness as well as retain existing employment.

On the potential for biomethane in Ireland, the EU has issued a report outlining that Ireland could be a net exporter by maximising the use of its own resources. It states the wider economic and environmental benefits of utilising agri-residues, excess crops, the rotation of cash crops and cattle slurry and manures, which would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture creating a circular economy and a valuable indigenous biogas industry leading to security of supply and revenues.

Biomethane supply can be utilised in various sectors to decarbonise energy in heat-thermal, renewable electricity generation in CCGT, transport in the public and private sectors and HGV haulage. The provision of renewable gas injection into the grid can utilise existing infrastructure without major capital cost and it can use existing high-efficient technology all at low cost to citizens, industry and commercial gas consumers. The existing high-efficient use of gas can achieve efficiencies of up to 90%.

Business and domestic consumers make decisions on their energy sources for the long term. By excluding renewable gas, namely, biomethane and BioLPG, in the proposed first phase of the RHSS, essentially locking out energy users from investment decisions that will fundamentally alter the market in Ireland, we will place the roll-out of biomethane and BioLPG technology in jeopardy.

We are proposing to Government that carbon tax be utilised to support the renewable gas industry. Every gas consumer pays a carbon tax on gas consumption and in 2016 the Irish consumer paid €126 million. If utilised to support the renewable gas industry to roll out biomethane, it would contribute to 7% of the national gas grid's consumption. There are opportunities in this area.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Can the Department comment on the progress made in the past three years since the implementation of the renewable energy development plan, REDP? Does it feel the REDP, which it leads, is fit for purpose? What was the outcome of the public consultation process on the mid-term review, which closed at the end of December?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their submissions, which I have read and which will help us in our work. Mr. Brian Britton was in contact with me on numerous occasions and I wish to recognise him today. I met with him just before Christmas and I am deeply saddened at his passing. He is a loss to his family and friends but he is also a significant loss to this industry. He was a pioneer, particularly of offshore wind energy.

Mr. Carroll spoke about wind and solar. He seems to think there are some 3,000 job opportunities in the solar sector but I think it might be more and could have a greater impact. Many people talk about offshore wind in the Irish Sea but offshore in the Atlantic Sea is where the real resource is. What is the timescale for harnessing offshore wind in the Atlantic Sea? Some pilot projects have been done but certain groups believe there is a need for greater Government initiatives and to be more attractive to investment.

Mr. Joe O'Carroll:

I agree with Deputy Dooley's point about the jobs in the solar industry, because it is not just about large-utility scale energy. There is potential for a significant amount of rooftop panels and we have been involved in a large number of commercial rooftop schemes. They are probably more labour intensive than other schemes so the final figure could be a multiple of the 3,000 mentioned in the report.

The technology for harnessing offshore wind already exists and the opportunity off the west coast is for floating platforms, in which respect a number of different technologies are already being deployed. Japan is taking the lead in this area, along with France. A number have been deployed off the west coast of France and a significant number are to be deployed off the coast of Japan as it looks to move away from the nuclear sector. The barriers include the route to market and the physical grid connection and these should be looked at. There is a suggestion in the national development plan that coal will be taken fully offline by 2025, which will free up almost 1 GW of grid capacity.

It should be an aim within that timeframe to have a significant offshore wind opportunity using at least some of the grid connection already there. On cost, offshore cost continues to come down. It has probably halved over the last ten years. Prices are now about £50 per megawatt hour in the most recent contracts for difference, CfD, auction in the UK. That would have been unheard of and even people's most ambitious projections a few years ago would not have seen prices come down to that. We can see the same here.

However, driving down the cost of delivery of renewable energy requires a scale of ambition that attracts the right level of activity in the supply chain. One takeaway point we would make to the committee is we would encourage it to use its influence to set a very high ambition. With that ambition, we will see more actors come into the market and that will help drive down the costs of the technology and the implementation of projects.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What we really need is great infrastructure along or connected to the western seaboard to make this possible. The national development plan rightly talks about electricity connection through the Celtic interconnector into France. The witness seems to be saying we need to look at connecting to a resource that is already there for which the technologies are advancing and developing?

Mr. Joe O'Carroll:

That is the immediate opportunity. We are going to need more grid infrastructure and within the space of the next seven or eight years that grid capacity should be available. It needs to be used to support renewable energy rather than any form of fossil energy. It is not a technology barrier at this stage. Siemens has estimated that, within Irish territorial waters, we have one third of the offshore energy resource in the European Union.

The potential for Ireland to be a massive exporter of energy exists if the right grid infrastructure is put in place. That is the trend of most EU policy. It wants to see generation where the resource is strongest and then, through increased interconnection between member states, to see the power flow from least cost production to consumers. Ireland, and the west coast, has a great opportunity. The Deputy's constituency could be looking at replicating what Aberdeen was to the oil industry and at the benefit that part of Scotland had from offshore oil. The west coast of Ireland can get a similar benefit from offshore wind.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witness. If witnesses want to come in at any time, they should indicate to me. I call Mr. Brady, if he wants to come back in.

Mr. Kevin Brady:

The interim review of the REDP commenced in 2017. It is generally viewed as being fit-for-purpose given the level of development in terms of where we are. However, the consultations are being examined. The timeframe at the moment for a final report is the end of this quarter. We would look to see something there. On Deputy Dooley's point, offshore wind was looked at as part of the RESS economic analysis. That was published on our website.

Grid is vital for any electricity infrastructure. Cost is another element. Studies on the REDP showed the cost levels for the east coast and the south-east coast, because of the less deep water, might be where the Ireland's initial, or only, offshore wind farm is at the moment. However, I think that grid point is clear. It maynot be a matter of building grid to the west coast but there are strong points of the grid on the west coast, particularly in the Shannon Estuary, but also in the Cork region. That would need to be factored in with respect to location when looking at offshore wind.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Stanley.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being late. I was attending another meeting that clashed with this one. I was interested in the Siemen's report. It said Ireland possesses one third of Europe's offshore wind energy. It has the wind power to do that. I heard what Mr. Brady said. I still think other European countries that do not have nearly the same potential that we have seem to have developed a viable industry. What are the blocks to Ireland doing that?

In respect of biofuels, we are way behind in using it as a renewable source. We have relied on onshore wind and put all our eggs into that basket. We are ignoring the wider portfolio and bioenergy in particular given our large agriculture sector. I welcome Mr. Mike Quinn, whom I met in a previous incarnation. I think it was about this week last year, if my memory is correct. I express my sadness at the loss of Mr. Brian Britton. I had the pleasure of meeting him on a few occasions and he was very passionate about renewable energy.

We have failed to develop bioenergy. I brought forward a paper on behalf of Sinn Féin in January. I welcome comments on that. It is available to everybody online. I refer to tapping into the huge agriculture sector, trying to use it in a more sustainable way and creating a circular economy and extra income for rural communities. The European Commission says we should be able to export energy produced from biogas. We need a change in Government policy to develop the energy mix. Mr. Brady might outline what officials in the Department see as the change needed in Government policy to bring forward a strong biogas and biomass sector. However, I refer also to other sources such as solar, which many of us have been banging the door about for a long time, geothermal energy, which has been almost completely ignored and hydro, recognising its limitations but also that other countries have made progress on that.

I direct this to Mr. Quinn, in particular. I am familiar with the example at Cush. It seems like an easy plugin. The gas pipe is passing by between the railway line and the road. The old Cush Inn has been bought. The plant nearby will be bringing compressed gas to that. It will be a great success and I look forward to it coming onstream. However, I refer to the current haulage fleet in the State. Second to agriculture in terms of greenhouse gas emissions is the haulage industry. We do not want to stop the haulage industry but we need to find another alternative. What level of production would be needed in the State to fuel that? The other and final part of the question is: has the semi-State sector a role to play? Briefly, what would that be in respect of developing the biomass and biogas industries?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Eamon Ryan or does he want to hear the answers to those questions?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No, I will hear the answers.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Mr. Bruton after. I will start with the Department, if it would like to come in on those questions.

Mr. Kevin Brady:

The first one question is: what is the block to offshore wind? Traditionally, it has been cost. The cost differential between offshore wind and onshore wind has been significant. That is coming down. Internationally, we are seeing the cost of offshore wind coming down. They are not level yet. However, when we look at the renewable electricity support scheme, there is a proposal for a technology neutral auction so we would not necessarily be selecting technologies. There would be an auction of whatever can bid in.

This committee has heard previously that there is potential for different people looking for different pots for different technologies. I refer to looking at a segmented amount for solar, offshore wind or bioenergy. That is an alternative approach. Anything that moves away from that would mean potentially a higher cost for the consumer. However, I think the main difference in terms of why offshore wind has not been a success in the past and should be in the future is that dramatic reduction in cost we have seen.

In respect of bioenergy, undoubtedly, we have a large potential for biogas, biomethane or renewable gas or whatever we want to call it. There are two main items we are working on at the moment. One is we need absolute certainty from EUROSTAT on exactly how biomethane injected into the grid will be treated in regard to our renewable energy targets and our emission reduction targets. We need to know, from the point of view of the Exchequer if we are going to fund the scheme, exactly how that can count towards our targets. Will it just go in and be a mix or can we direct it towards the heat sector?

The second point is the business case. This is under the support scheme for renewable heat. In order to support this, we need to put together a strong business case to show why and how we can spend Exchequer funding on biomethane injection.

That is something we are working on at present. We have committed to the industry that we will look forward to the Budget Statement 2019 to bring that forward.

In terms of some of the other technologies mentioned by Deputy Stanley, I have covered biogas, biomass obviously has been quite successful in the heat sector, and the support scheme for renewable heat, SSRH, should bring that along further. In terms of solar energy, the renewable electricity support scheme , RESS, comes into play and there are questions on whether it is technology neutral or not. We looked at geothermal energy in terms of the support scheme for renewable heat, SSRH, and included it in our economic analysis. We found a very low take up at a comparable level of tariffs. In terms of hydo, we have had some development in small hydro energy, as the big barrier there is probably our geography.

On the question of freight emissions, freight emissions are around one quarter of the emissions in the transport sector, which is obviously the largest part of our emissions in the non emissions trading scheme, ETS, sector, and transport accounts for approximately 58% of non-ETS emissions.

The movement of freight to lower emissions fuels such as compressed natural gas, Gas Networks Ireland, GNI, are rolling 14 publicly accessible filling stations, but there is also the potential for biomethane or renewable gas to be injected into the grid and be directed at transport to further decarbonise it. That is a potential path for freight.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Brady. I invite Mr. Mike Quinn to respond to questions from Deputy Stanley.

Mr. Mike Quinn:

I thank Deputy Stanley and will respond to his question on compressed natural gas, CNG. As Mr. Brady pointed out Ervia is in the process of rolling out some CNG terminals across the country. The first one is actually in Dublin Port and it should be coming on stream in the first quarter of 2018. We are waiting for the Commission for Regulation of Utilities in Ireland, CRU, to give the safety certificate. The second terminal will be on the M7 and under what is called Project Causeway, there will be up to 14 stations in place by 2020.

Our plan is to roll out 70 stations by 2027. It has got an investment of €100 million. That will supply fuel to about 5,000 commercial vehicles. To put it in perspective, there are approximately 80,000 commercial vehicles currently on the road in Ireland today. It can have a major impact. If we converted more than 50% of the commercial fleet, that is buses and trucks to CNG, on fuel savings alone it would save approximately €524 million over diesel and an emission saving of 270,000 tonnes of CO2. If we use renewable gas instead of CNG, that saving grows to 1.225 million tonnes of CO2. It is very significant.

It is not as if we have to invent this technology. This technology is already being deployed. There are 24 million CNG powered vehicles globally so it is not something we have to invent ourselves. We will roll out existing technology. The reason it will take time is that we have to become used to rolling out the CNG refuelling stations and the other major challenge up to now has been getting right hand drive vehicles. A number of firms have signed up, including a waste company in County Clare is in the process of converting its waste fleet and as of Monday, 26 February, Bord na Móna will start to convert the first ten trucks to CNG as well. It will gather traction in the next number of years.

The Deputy asked about the role of the semi-State companies. I think the semi-State companies have a significant role to play in using biogas and biomass. GNI has a big programme in terms of rolling out the support infrastructure for biogas. We talked about the first injection point in Kildare, a second injection point should be going for planning permission in Mitchelstown and we hope to have ten to 12 anaerobic digestion plants generating gas that we can inject into a central agreed connection point. GNI's role will be to provide CNG powered transport to collect the gas from the network of anaerobic digestion plants and then inject the gas directly into the grid. We are also going to operate the Green Gas Certificate programme, which we hope will be approved by the third quarter. We should be in a position to start providing those green gas certificates of origin for the gas injections. We have a very significant role to play in that. We have identified a series of networks right across the country where we will build out these injection points

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Quinn stating that ten anaerobic digestion plants will be supplying the refuelling station in Mitchelstown?

Mr. Mike Quinn:

Yes, that is correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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What is the proposed timescale for the plant?

Mr. Mike Quinn:

We will seek planning permission for the gas injection point this year. I will ask my colleague Mr. O'Sullivan to address the length of the construction period.

Mr. Denis O'Sullivan:

The construction period for the injection point is relatively short. It is about nine months following the completion of the planning process and the granting of the various permits. We would expect to see the initial AD plants to come online simultaneously with that, and then increasing up to ten to 12 plants in total.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Will they be located in a close radius?

Mr. Denis O'Sullivan:

They will be within a 30 to 40 mile radius of Mitchelstown.

Mr. Mike Quinn:

We plan to replicate that model throughout the country. We have identified ten to 12 injection points that we will build out in the next number of years.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I invite Mr. Tom Bruton, who indicated earlier. Did Mr. Burton wish to comment on a particular point?

Mr. Tom Bruton:

Yes, Chairman. It would be remiss not to convey some of the sense of the frustration of the Irish BioEnegy Association members around policy implementation. The SSRH, as it now known was conceived of in 2013 and mentioned in a draft bioenergy plan in 2014. Now we are in 2018, and the scheme is not open for applications. No application has been made to Brussels for state aid for that scheme. It is quite frustrating that 800 tonnes of oil are being burned every day, while that scheme is being cooked too slowly for the needs of industry. There is an industry waiting to deliver on it and install boilers, with farmers and foresters waiting to supply crops and forest thinnings into this. There is an urgent need to meet the 2020 target for renewable heat. It is part of the Irish BioEnergy Association's everyday job to try to turn around to members and explain why the opportunity is not open and available in the short term.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will now invite Deputies Ryan and Bríd Smith before I bring in Mr. McCarthy and Mr.Sadlier.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I apologise, but I was in the Chamber as I had tabled a question to the Taoiseach. I have read the presentations. I will watch the video with interest.

On Mr. Bruton's final point, I attended the Bioenergy conference last week. It is absolutely clear that the industry has been completely stymied in the past four years and it looks like it will be later than 2019 before we benefit for state aid rules. We killed it for five years by holding out the expectation of this scheme, so that any customers will say that they will wait to benefit from that scheme, so the industry has been crippled for five years.

It is still going on. Mr. Brady will have heard me say at the Irish BioEnergy Association conference that we have just done the same to the solar industry. The Minister comes out, stating that he will introduce a roof top scheme, sometime in the summer and in every office of every single developer in the sector, the phone goes dead. Anybody thinking of entering a contract, thinks they should wait for that aid. That is a mistake we must stop in terms of trying to promote what should be a thriving industry.

I want to put a question to Mr. Brady, and again he would have heard me call for this, but it follows from an early presentation to the committee when Mr. Paul Kenny from the Tipperary Energy Institute made the very simple astute point that some 67% of new houses we are building, are being built with fossil fuel heating systems which in any scenario we will have to take out again in the next decade or two as we seek to meet our climate targets. That will be at the real expense of the householders. It is particularly frustrating when there are viable alternatives, such as solar water heating, geothermal, air heat pumps to name but a few. Is there a prospect, Mr. Brady, that the Department will be looking at introducing regulations where we will just stop the introduction of the fossil fuel heating systems in any house? In any industrial system, one could look at sustainable biomass for solution. Where are we continuing to go with oil and gas, when we have biomass and other renewable alternatives? It is the cheapest, quickest and easiest way of getting those industries back on their feet. Has the Department considered that? Will it consider it?

There are many areas I could go into, but I will focus on the future use of gas.

I read the presentation from the CEO of Ervia. Again, on a purely climate change science basis, we have heard presentations from international authorities showing the scale of the changes we must make to comply with the Paris Agreement. This means that we need to see an end to all fossil fuel production, particularly in the power generation sector where two thirds of energy is lost as waste heat. This is an incredibly wasteful use of a resource we should be limiting our use of. This brings me back to Deputy Dooley's question about the future of Moneypoint and peat-powered power stations because there seems to be no way one could justify a new gas-fired power station in Moneypoint to replace a coal-fired one. Regarding the argument that it helps us reach the climate targets, it might help us meet it in the very short term but these plants last 30 years. We are not going to, or cannot, use that gas plant in 30 years' time so why would we go with it, particularly at a time when, as Deputy Dooley said, we have a comparative competitive advantage in terms of very high wind speeds and a huge sea area? Surely that should be the future of Moneypoint as a connection point for off-shore wind energy and the use of DC cables to connect to continental and British markets as a way of playing our part in what the EU looks to do now, which is creating a north-west European regional market where we ship power over long distances and across markets. I cannot see how any rational energy approach would say we should go with gas rather than offshore wind. There are issues around inertia. This is a technical issue with which we must deal but I believe our engineers are capable of doing that far more quickly and more cheaply than the alternative Mr. Quinn seems to be advocating, which is that we might be able to find some CCS solution to the gas issue. Is there any working example of a CCS plant on the scale of Moneypoint that is in any way commercially viable? Could Mr. Quinn show me where it is working and who is developing it at scale? I would be very interested to see where that is happening.

I am very supportive of the concept of renewable gas - getting gas from waste products, anaerobic digestion and possibly from grass - but my understanding is that at best, even if we really maximised that gas from grass potential, it might provide at a maximum roughly 25% of current gas consumption. I understand that Ervia is now expanding its gas network in the midlands and surrounding counties. How is that happening? I also understood that we had really come to the end of building out our gas network and that there were no more significant commercially viable options in terms of extending our gas network. Given that we may be facing a future where our gas supply is restricted to a renewable supply by 75% for climate change reasons, how is it that Ervia is expanding its gas network now? Why are we looking at two new LNG terminals in Shannon and Cork, which I can only presume is to import American fracked gas, which is a threat to climate? Why is Ervia talking about new gas-fired power stations? How can that in any way live with the climate science reality that says we must switch from gas just as much as other fossil fuels because the carbon from it will be in the atmosphere for several hundred or thousand years and we must stop putting that carbon up there?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Smith wish to come in at this point?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have a few questions about the environmental impact of biomass and biofuels. Obviously, I am trying to learn from everybody here as well. I am not being dogmatic about this but is there not an argument that the use of biomass and biofuels can have an impact on other parts of the planet? Alternatively, have things moved for the better? I remember quite clearly being in Egypt prior to the Arab Spring where food poverty and food security were significant questions. One of the things farmers spoke about was big land masses being bought up to produce biofuels for the west. I believe this was a trigger for the Arab Spring in countries like Egypt and Tunisia. The farmers could not grow the food they needed to eat and the cost of food shot up because there was scarcity of ordinary, proper, healthy food in the region with most of the land being taken up with the production of biofuels. There is an ethical question here about the energy the First World uses at the expense of the Third World and indeed the greater impact of climate change on the Third World than on the First World. I want to tease out this issue. Is this still a concern?

Another issue I have come across recently because people have written to me about it is getting biomass from dumps. Apparently, Bord na Móna has a dump in Kildare from which it extracts biomass. What is the impact of that on the local communities and environment? Would anyone here from the Department and elsewhere comment on that?

We are trying to get all the freight carriers to move to biomass fuels but at the same time freight is responsible for more than 15% of CO2 emissions from transport. I am old enough to remember the goods trains in the good old days that went up and down the train tracks carrying Guinness, food and fuel. As a State, we should be trying to return to a massive reintroduction of trains as a means of transporting goods thereby getting freight carriers off the road. This would be a big contribution to cleaning up our air and our usage of fuel. I am more interested in the ethical arguments around biofuels.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of questions there from Deputies Eamon Ryan and Bríd Smith. I might start with Mr. Brady. I know Mr. Quinn was addressed and I also want to bring in Mr. McCarthy, Mr. Sadlier and Mr. Cogan.

Mr. Kevin Brady:

I might clarify matters in terms of the state aid application. We are in the pre-notification phase for the support scheme for renewable heat, SSRH. This is the period during which we discuss what our scheme is and how we plan to implement it with the Commission. As I said earlier, there are two strands of work. The other is the development of the detailed terms and conditions so that is part of the pre-notification period as we develop them. I know it has not been mentioned but I might put it out there in terms of grandfathering. This is where plants might already be up and running. Can they avail of the SSRH? That is part of this pre-notification process. We would like this to be the case but it needs to be teased out with the Commission so that when we agree or disagree with it, that goes into the final official state aid application. I assure everybody that we are working to implement the SSRH as soon as possible and that being in the pre-notification process does not mean there is a delay. It is part of the process.

In respect of Deputy Eamon Ryan's points and the two thirds of new homes that are being put in with fossil fuels, we could look at it as being the glass being one third full. Under Part L of the building regulations, all new homes and homes undergoing major renovation require a portion or an amount of renewable energy to be delivered on site. This is generally done in two ways. One is through solar PV panels on the roof, which is generally done in combination with a fossil fuel heating system, while the other way is in terms of heat pumps generating heating for the whole home. We have seen a growth in the number of heat pumps over the years and this number is growing so it is positive but, yes, fossil fuel heating systems are still being put in. At the moment, as part of the clean energy package, and I think the committee has talked about the package of measures that are moving through Europe, there is an energy performance of buildings directive that is almost at completion in Europe. The transposition of that directive will necessitate a change to the building regulations so that would be an opportunity to revisit that and examine whether it should be further changed. The building regulations in many ways constitute the stick stating what people must do. The carrot in terms of fossil fuels has been removed in terms of the recent changes to the better energy homes scheme whereby grants are no longer being offered to retrofit or put in new oil or gas boilers so there is definitely a direction of change there. It may not be as fast as the Deputy would like but it is certainly a move in that direction.

With regard to gas, Moneypoint and climate change targets, I would like to clarify, although people may already be well aware, that our renewable energy target is across the entire energy sector whereas our national emissions reduction target is only in the non-ETS sector. Electricity lives in the ETS sector so whatever the future of Moneypoint and peat stations is and whether they convert to gas or full renewables, I want to be very clear that this would not impact our national emissions reduction target. That is important.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Is there not some crossover? When there are negotiations on fines or how we are doing, will there be cognisance taken or recognition of what we do on the emission trading system, ETS sector? In terms of national security, competitiveness and economic benefits, we should not just sanitise the whole ETS sector and say it is nothing to do with us; it is some market thing. We can make strategic decisions. It would help us in Europe in the wider negotiations if we were doing really well in the ETS by providing renewable power to the rest of Europe by switching away from fossil fuels. That will help us in our broad policy approach.

Mr. Kevin Brady:

I would not disagree with that at all. I want to make sure that people understand that when we hear about the non-ETS target, against which we are measured very strictly, that issues around Moneypoint or peat are not necessarily part of that conversation. Undoubtedly, it has a part to play in terms of the overall national policy position on 2050 and decarbonising the whole energy system. In Europe, if one is out of line in one area but in line in others, it can only help.

On Deputy Bríd Smith's points on environmental impact, there is considerable concern about biomass and biofuels and the impact on land use. An amendment to the renewable energy directive was brought in called the integrated land use change directive. It put a cap on the amount of energy from biofuels that countries can count towards their renewable energy target. That cap is 7%. A key part is that we cannot just say that we will decarbonise transport by putting in more and more biofuels. We can do it but we are only allowed to count up to 7% when those biofuels come from food or feed-based crops. There are strict sustainability criteria in the renewable energy directive and they are getting stricter. It is a topic which is live and is being addressed by European legislation.

The point was made about removing waste from dumps. We are entering a phase where we are viewing waste as a resource. We are seeing the Dublin waste-to-energy facility is generating energy from waste and hopefully, in time, heat via district heating. I do not have any information on what is being done locally. Anything would have to pass the standard environmental tests and planning regulations.

I want to be clear about some of the figures I gave for trains and freight. More than 50% of our emissions in the non-ETS sector are from transport, within which about one quarter are from freight and half are from cars. There is potential for converting freight to trains, but it generally works where one is transporting goods over a very long distance or when one is transporting goods from a particular point to a port. We use freight for wood, principally down to the south east, and have trains running from one of the mines. Our current freight fleet is very dispersed. While converting it to rail has merit, it does not have significant potential.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Mike Quinn. I am conscious that three others are waiting and ask Mr. Quinn to be as brief as possible and simply answer the questions.

Mr. Mike Quinn:

I will be very quick. Deputy Ryan correctly pointed out that there is decision on inertia around the 400 kV line that comes out of Moneypoint. The Government has stated that Moneypoint will be retired at 2025 and a decision will be made around 2020 or 2021 on this. I have not seen any scenario where conventional generation does not supplement renewables up to 2050. I am not sure of the case after 2050 but until then there has to be a base load alongside renewables. Ireland has been very successful in that and we are at 55% at present but we still need gas. One example that we looked at in 2016 when the wind dropped to 1% on one day and the slack was taken up by the combined cycle gas turbine, CCGT, plants and it went as high as 73% of energy in a particular day. We need that fast response from the CCGTs. My colleague will touch on the carbon capture and storage, CCS, generally.

Deputy Bríd Smith referred to the Bord na Móna biogas facility in Drehid, County Kildare. That gas was being flared before we put in the landfill gas engines. It is from organic waste which generates gas when it decays, which we now use as fuel for four engines which provides power to 8,000 houses. That will change over time, however. The majority of household waste goes to the waste-to-energy plant in Poolbeg. Changes in legislation that are being brought in regarding the brown bin organic waste-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does brown bin waste also go to Poolbeg?

Mr. Mike Quinn:

No, that will go to anaerobic digestion in future.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Where will it go?

Mr. Mike Quinn:

To anaerobic digestion for biogas generation.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Quinn. Does Mr. Denis O'Sullivan wish to come in and finish those responses?

Mr. Denis O'Sullivan:

I wanted to touch on carbon capture and storage. There are several successful carbon capture and storage plants operating in Canada and the US. One plant in Canada is producing 115 MW of electricity and they are capturing roughly 92% of the carbon coming off the plant. Ireland has a unique opportunity, in that we have a lot of the infrastructure in place already in Cork with a gas field that is coming out of service. It is a low-pressure gas field, which is a distinct advantage in terms of the cost of storing the carbon.

More generally, as Mr. Quinn observed, there is no scenario where gas is not involved in power generation for the foreseeable future, until 2050 and perhaps beyond that. That being the case, we should use the opportunities there to capture the carbon from the natural gas while it is there and being used. The potential for carbon reduction or carbon emissions during that period is very significant. We have that opportunity to capture the carbon and store it back into the gas fields from which it originated.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We do not have anywhere in Moneypoint to store the carbon. Extensive surveys have been conducted which showed there was nothing suitable there. We have a fleet of modern gas plants, often quite young, some of which we are now switching off because we cannot pay the capacity payments or they did not win in the bidding system. The idea of building new gas plants when we are shutting others down is unusual.

Regarding the Canadian plant, what is the average price per kWh of power produced?

Mr. Denis O'Sullivan:

I do not have a specific price for that plant. Studies that have been undertaken in the UK suggest £85 per MWh for electricity where carbon capture has been deployed.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would love to see carbon capture as a viable technology. It should, could and would have a place but I hear no international expert or have seen no major report which currently thinks that it is viable or that there is any sign of it becoming viable in coming decades. At a time when we could be connecting with the Continent to provide that balancing power supply and developing our renewables, I think it will go 100% renewables. I do not think that we will burn gas in the future, I do not think that our climate will be able to take it. The key reason why carbon capture and storage is not working is not ideological; it is just not economic. It is nowhere near it. It is twice or three times the price of the renewable alternatives, which will kill it for the foreseeable future.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Mr. P.J. McCarthy from the Renewable Gas Forum Ireland, RGFI, and then Mr. Bill Sadlier and Mr. James Cogan. I ask them to be brief as we are under time constraints.

Mr. P.J. McCarthy:

If we can be afforded the time, this point is important. We need to understand and realise as a community, as policy makers, Government and semi-State agencies, that electrification of biomass will not address the matters and the urgency required to decarbonise manufacturing and processing industries such as those represented by the gentlemen beside me from Diageo and Dairygold. Other foreign direct investment companies and the biopharma, biomedical, medical, ICT and IT sectors, as well as the data centres with which we are all familiar, have been criticising the Irish Government for its lack of energy policy. It is critical that we understand that we need to talk about an energy mix. Electrification is not the solution for manufacturing and processing. I note that 60% of the energy demand in Ireland is from thermal, that is, gas, of which 80% is consumed by our pillar industries in the manufacturing and processing sector, which is the employment backbone of this country, and in the agrifood sector, which accounts for €13.6 billion in exports.

It would be unfair to discount the merits of renewable gas and biogas in terms of the opportunity to decarbonise agriculture, assist rural Ireland in having a place in the future and decarbonise energy, as renewable gas can.

On the EUROSTAT, we are positively disposed to working with the Department and Europe and there have been some recent developments in that regard, which we welcome. This is part of our consultative approach with the Government and Europe in addressing these regulatory barriers. It is important to understand that the green gas certification project being rolled out by the renewable gas industry and other industry participants will capture, verify and validate what is being done about greenhouse gas emissions. It will be 100% accountable, fully auditable and transparent. The gas industry is highly and fully regulated. We can fully account for what we are producing, which offers value for money to the end consumer and is sustainable.

Mr. Bill Sadlier:

I wish to address some comments made by Deputies Dooley and Stanley on the cost of offshore. As I stated, we need to move the narrative away from the cost of renewable energy and toward focussing on its benefits, including security of supply, sustainability and economic benefits. The industry across all technology is going through an unprecedented reduction in cost and efficiency. Our nearest neighbour has experienced a twofold reduction in the cost of delivering offshore since 2013. It established its offshore programme with the average price approximately £120 per megawatt hour but is now delivering offshore wind at approximately £55 per megawatt hour. However, it got there by creating the environment and ambition to establish supply chains and operational maintenance hubs. It is now delivering offshore wind in the UK for 30% less than we can from onshore. That price differential goes to the economic modelling for the wholesale power price which accompanied our submission to the renewable electricity support scheme, RESS, consultation in respect of the reduction in energy price on capital costs.

Mr. James Cogan:

As regards Deputy Bríd Smith's question on biofuels, this meeting is to address meeting the targets for 2020. The targets for renewable energy and transport for 2020 are 10%, while Ireland is currently just over 5%. That number diminishes because some of it is double counting, so it is notional rather than real progress. Ireland is one of the least ambitious countries in Europe in terms of meeting the target. In terms of targets for 2030 because 2020 is around the corner and we seek continuity and growth in ambition, the European Council is currently proposing legislation for 2030 which would cut the 10% down to 3.5% in real terms. Nominally, it is 14% but half of that is optional - optional directives are curious to consider - and the remaining 7% is double counted, with half being notional, so in real terms it is 3.5%. That shows that there is a cohort of countries, including Ireland, in Europe which advocates a much reduced obligatory ambition for renewables and climate progress in transport. This begs the question of whether Ireland is prepared to be ambitious on its own even though the European Union has reduced its level of ambition or if it will stay within the maximum obligation that Europe imposes. I hope that gives members some context of where we are going.

As regards Deputy Smith's question on whether or not biofuels have created food security issues around the world and, specifically, in Europe, it is a very legitimate question which has been debated up and down the street over the past ten years in Europe. Not a single drop of biofuel imported into the European Union comes from a region or area that presents concerns such as those raised by the Deputy. I am more than happy to meet her and go through that in detail. Most biofuel used in Europe is biomass produced by European farmers. European farmers are a superpower in terms of their ability to produce such crops and forms of biomass. The volumes required to make progress in climate progress and transport are tiny compared with the capacity of European farmers, with the notable exception of palm oil diesel, which is a rotten apple that all biofuels and bioenergy producers should be keeping out of the barrel. Unfortunately, it is not firmly out of the barrel.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan wish to briefly come in? If he has a long contribution, I ask that he submit a written submission instead because we must conclude the meeting.

Mr. Denis O'Sullivan:

In response to Deputy Ryan on the cost of carbon capture and storage, CCS, we must bear in mind that the facilities are already in existence. The offshore storage, platforms and pipes are there. The only facility that would need to be installed is the carbon capture piece at the existing power stations which are adjacent to the pipeline heading offshore. As I stated, €85 per megawatt hour is the figure used in the UK or that came out of the UK report. We believe the cost to be less than that in the Irish context and we have done some research on the matter which I am happy to discuss with members.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would like to express my condolences on the death of Mr. Brian Britton, who I knew very well. He is a real loss.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, we extend our condolences to his family and thank him for his work.

I thank the witnesses for coming before us this afternoon. We will publish the opening statements on our website. Is that agreed? Agreed.