Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 17 January 2018

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs

Arts Sector Funding: Discussion

1:30 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To assist us with our consideration, the committee welcomes Ms Orlaith McBride, director of the Arts Council; Ms Sheila Pratschke, chair of the Arts Council; and Mr. Martin O'Sullivan, finance director. From the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, we welcome Mr. Fergal Ó Coigligh, assistant secretary; Ms Sinead Copeland, principal officer; and Ms Mary Nash, principal officer. Cuirim fáilte mhór rompu agus gabhaim míle buíochas leo as teacht anseo inniu.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I wish to also advise that any opening statement or documents witnesses have submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after this meeting.

Chun tús a chur leis an chómhra, tugaimid cuireadh don Chomhairle Ealaíon a ráiteas a dhéanamh. I would like to ask the Arts Council to make its presentation.

Ms Orlaith McBride:

My name is Orlaith McBride, I am the director of the Arts Council, An Chomhairle Ealaoín and I accompanied today by its chair, Sheila Pratschke and our finance director, Martin O'Sullivan. I thank the committee for inviting us here today to discuss governance in funding in the arts sector.

In 2018, the Arts Council will receive €68.2 million in funding from the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. The Arts Council's role is to support the development of the arts in Ireland. We do this through a range of grants and awards towards the production and creation of artistic work, by supporting organisations, supporting individual artists, and working in partnership with other agencies, for example local authorities, to develop the arts.

The governance regarding how the Arts Council awards funding to an individual or an organisation falls under a number of specific steps. The first of these is the application process. A call for applications with published criteria is issued, with an application window of, on average, six weeks from the call to the submission of the application. All applications for funding are submitted using our online system. The application is checked to ensure it is eligible, and is then moved to the assessment process.

The application is then internally assessed by an art form team, with at least two people contributing to the initial assessment of the application against the published criteria.

The application is then internally assessed by an art form team, with at least two people contributing to the initial assessment of the application against the published criteria. The assessment is logged in our customer relationship management, CRM, system. The assessments are then brought to the appropriate decision-making process, which is also publicly advertised.

There are three decision-making processes used by the Arts Council. The first is the council plenary for grant decisions relating to annually or multi-annually funded organisations. The assessments, with recommended amounts, are brought to the council for deliberation and decision. Peer panels are typically used for grants to individuals and project grants. Panel members for each panel are selected from an approved panel master list. Peer panels are chaired by a current or former member of the Arts Council. Panellists are nominated on the basis of their expert knowledge. In order to safeguard effective and objective decision-making and provide a wide range of opinions, a different panel is appointed for each assessment round. All decisions are brought to the council for noting. The executive panel process is used for travel and training and small festivals grants. All decisions are brought to the council for noting.

All applications for funding, regardless of the decision-making model, are scored against the application criteria so that organisations or individuals understand the rationale behind the decision. All decisions can be appealed, with the appeal heard by an independent appeals panel. All funding decisions are published on the Arts Council’s website within ten days of their being made. Once an award has been made, organisations or individuals must formally accept the award in writing and formally indicate that they comply with our conditions of financial assistance. A payment schedule is then agreed on the basis of specific reporting requirements, such as submission of audited accounts, reports on activity and so forth. The final payment is always withheld until the Arts Council is satisfied that it has received all the required documentation and assurances that the grant funding was expended in accordance with the purpose for which it was granted and any conditions attaching to the grant funding were met.

The conditions of financial assistance are in two parts. Part 1 of these conditions applies to all recipients of Arts Council funding. Part 2 applies only to annually or multi-annually funded organisations. Part 1 includes clauses dealing with: the funding offer; managing payments; reporting and assurance; keeping of accounts and making inspections; acknowledging the Arts Council; termination of the grant; and compliance with all laws, specifically as they relate to child protection, safety, health and welfare at work, employment, data protection and freedom of information, FOI. Further clauses deal with intellectual property rights and value for money.

Part 2 outlines specific additional conditions applying to recipients of grant funding, including ensuring that the Arts Council is provided with a copy of the organisation's constitution, that organisations shall hold no less than quarterly board meetings and that where any matters of material interest to the Arts Council are reported at a board meeting or otherwise the recipient has a responsibility to furnish to the Arts Council the relevant documentation and explanation in a timely fashion.

There are specific conditions on the financial reporting required for grants less than €25,000 and those over €25,000 and deadlines for their submission. For all grants over €100,000, the Arts Council can also appoint an independent auditor to: ensure that public money is managed properly and is expended on the purpose for which it was awarded; provide assurances on the system of internal financial control, ensuring that effective and efficient systems are in place to make sure there is value for money; examine whether the recipient conducts its affairs with probity and sound corporate governance; and establish that the board is furnished with adequate financial information and that all related party transactions are properly disclosed in the accounts.

Part 2 also outlines specific conditions as they relate to governance, including confirmation that the recipient will co-operate fully with the Arts Council by implementing policies and procedures in areas which include internal audit, risk management, public procurement, financial reporting and quality of service. Part 2 also requests that organisations comply at all times with governance arrangements based on: specific principles relating to strategy; compliance with statutory obligations; ensuring and managing risk; establishing and managing internal controls; clearly documenting procedures for the appointment and disqualification of board members; ensuring that appropriate financial management and oversight are in place; annual review of board performance; maintaining a code of conduct for board members setting out standards of integrity, conduct, ethics and concern for public interest; and confirming in writing that the recipient is complying with the Arts Council’s governance transparency scale.

Furthermore, part 2 outlines that where any board or staff member behaves illegally, wrongfully, inappropriately or in breach of relevant policies or procedures of the recipient, whether by act or omission, all action will be taken to deal with any allegation or complaint against a board or staff member to ensure the safety and protection of such person and members of the public generally and shall report the matter to all relevant bodies. Part 2 also outlines that where a serious concern relating to governance is identified, it shall be notified in writing to the Arts Council with a proposal for dealing with the issue. As part of the Arts Council’s ongoing relationship management, organisations in receipt of strategic funding will now also have to sign a formal funding agreement that will outline specific conditions attaching to the specific offer of funding.

The Arts Council has been leading best-practice governance support within the scope of our authority for arts organisations over recent years, particularly as changes brought about by the Charities Act and the appointment of the Charities Regulator in 2014 have been introduced. As the Arts Council is not a regulatory body and given that there are regulatory bodies in place for both charities and companies, our role is to provide best practice advice and support to arts organisations. To this end, we have published A Practical Guide for Board Members of Arts Organisations. We ran a governance seminar in 2016 and developed a draft constitution to support organisations to comply with the new charities legislation and the companies legislation. We have also developed a governance transparency code that organisations must sign up to as well as a suite of other corporate governance documents.

The Arts Council takes its role in managing and awarding public moneys very seriously. We make transparent decisions in terms of awarding funding to those artists and arts organisations that make the most compelling and ambitious applications for funding based on the Arts Council’s published strategy and funding criteria. Our decision-making processes are open and rigorous and our ongoing processes for monitoring, reporting and managing the funding once it is awarded are robust.

I thank the committee for providing us with the opportunity to outline the governance relating to how we award funding to the arts sector.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that detailed presentation. Leanfaimid anois le hóráid ón Roinn Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

Ar son na Roinne, gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as cuireadh a thabhairt dúinn teacht anseo inniu chun labhairt faoi mhaoiniú na n-ealaíon. I am assistant secretary general of the culture division in the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. I am accompanied by Mary Nash, principal officer in the arts, film and investment unit, and Sinead Copeland, principal officer in the Creative Ireland unit of the Department. I thank the joint committee for inviting us to discuss governance of funding in the arts sector.

The culture division of the Department is responsible for overseeing much of the State's cultural services as well as leading on the programme for the decade of commemorations up to 2023. As the State’s cultural services are, in the main, delivered through agencies it follows that the majority of the Department’s funding is channelled through them. The current programme budget for 2018 is just under €130 million. This funds ongoing operations and funding schemes of the Department and its agencies. The capital budget provision for 2018 is just under €30 million. This funds investment in national cultural institutions, arts and cultural centres and funding support offered by the Irish Film Board.

Of the total programme budget of €160 million in 2018, €68 million is provided for the Arts Council, €18 million for the Irish Film Board and €45 million for our national cultural institutions. These include the National Museum of Ireland, the National Gallery of Ireland, the National Library of Ireland, the National Archives, the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the Chester Beatty Library, the National Concert Hall and the Crawford Gallery in Cork. Funding of €4.5 million is provided to the culture Ireland unit of the Department to promote Irish arts and artists on the world stage and €6 million is provided for the Creative Ireland programme. The Department also supports a range of smaller institutions and organisations with funding, such as the Hunt Museum in Limerick, Marsh’s Library and Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, as well as operating capital grant schemes for investing in arts and cultural infrastructure.

The governance relationship between the Department and its agencies is covered by legislation and policy. The Arts Council, Irish Film Board and many of the national cultural institutions are established by legislation which sets out the role of the Minister, the board and the director with regard to their powers and functions. In addition, the Department and its agencies are subject to relevant Government policy. The Department communicates policy direction to its agencies through annual finding letters, performance delivery agreements and annual oversight agreements. The allocation of funding by the Department is subject to certain conditions including compliance with public financial procedures, the public spending code, the code of practice for the governance of State Bodies, national and EU procurement rules and procedures, pay and employment procedures and other circulars issued by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

A significant part of the work of the culture division entails ongoing interaction with all its agencies on funding, reporting, staffing, the appointment of boards and directors, the delivery of services and overall compliance.

In the context of the arts specifically, the Arts Council is the body established by the Oireachtas as the national agency for promoting and developing the arts in Ireland. At €68.2 million, the Arts Council will receive the majority of the division's current funding in 2018.

It should also be noted that the Arts Act 2003 empowers the Minister to promote the arts both inside and outside the State. The Act enables the Minister to set the overall policy framework for arts and to channel public funding to the Arts Council. Furthermore, the Act recognises the role that local authorities and other public agencies have in promoting the arts. For example, public service broadcasting plays a key role in this area. The work of promoting and cherishing the arts and our culture is a task shared by many public and private bodies. It should be noted that the Arts Act 2003 specifically provides that the Arts Council is independent in its funding decisions and the Department cannot become involved in these decisions.

On recent initiatives taken by the Department, the most notable has been the establishment of the Creative Ireland programme, which was launched in December 2016. This followed the success of Ireland 2016 centenary programme. The year 2016 was one of extraordinary cultural reflection and inclusive celebration. The Government recognised that it was important to harness that energy with a new programme. The Creative Ireland programme also served as the vehicle to implement much of what was set out in the draft framework policy document, Culture 2025.

During last year, the first year of the Creative Ireland programme, there were many successes. It was also a learning opportunity for the Department to make new connections, explore new policy areas and provide an opportunity to work right across Government. Collaboration is at the heart of the Creative Ireland programme and provides a framework within which new ideas can be explored, such as cultural and creative education, the creative economy, health and well-being. The Arts Council, Irish Film Board, the national cultural institutions, other Departments and local authorities are key partners in this collaboration. The Creative Ireland programme is also about the future, when many of today's jobs will no longer exist. We know that the most valuable economic resource will be the human imagination - the capacity of every individual person to innovate and create, to solve problems. Developing imaginative and creative skills is crucially important.

There were some significant successes last year on which we will build on in 2018. I refer, for example, to the establishment of Creative Ireland co-ordinators and culture teams in every local authority area. This development was assisted by €2 million in funding provided by the Departments of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Housing, Planning and Local Government. The local culture and creativity plans listed over 750 projects, events and initiatives which took place nationwide in 2017 of which an estimated 250 were directly attributable to the Creative Ireland programme. The Department will double its funding for this element of the programme in 2018.

Education is at the heart of the programme. In December 2017, Creative Youth - A plan to enable the creative potential every child and young person, a joint effort between the Departments of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Education and Skills and Children and Youth Affairs, and our colleagues in the Arts Council, was launched. The Arts Council will be launching its creative schools initiative shortly to encourage further creativity and culture in our classrooms.

A pilot scheme giving professional artists and writers easier access to social welfare supports was launched in June.

A widespread and comprehensive communications strategy was embarked on to engage citizens with the programme using traditional and digital platforms. To complement this, the Department took part in various major events in 2017 as part of the Creative Ireland Programme. These were chosen in order to promote the objectives and underlying values of the programme. For example, the live streaming of the ILLUMINATE talks and performance programme at Electric Picnic was attended by 11,000 people but attracted over 271,000 online views on the Creative Ireland programme Facebook live stream.

The Creative Ireland programme is an initiative that is driven by a unit within the culture division of the Department. The objectives of the programme extend right across the full spread of the Department's functions as well as that of its agencies. It also spreads right across Government, as seen at the Creative Ireland forum last month. The latter was addressed by the Taoiseach, the Ministers for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Education and Skills, Business, Enterprise and Innovation and Health, and appropriately, the European Commissioner for Education, Youth, Culture and Sport. It is an initiative which will strengthen the place in Irish society of culture and creativity and bring to the fore the important role that the Arts Council, Irish Film Board and national cultural institutions all play in the life of the nation.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Roinn mar gheall ar an obair atá idir láimh aige. There is so much wonderful activity happening in the arts sector and we do not spend enough time focusing on all of that. Much of that work happens as a result of the funding and the development that is facilitated by these organisations.

One of the reasons we looked to have this discussion is because the arts sector has been rocked in recent months by allegations of bullying and harassment. It would be useful for the members to be able to see what we can do to strengthen the protections that exist for workers in this area. My questions relate to that. One of the protections that could be used is the withdrawal of funds. In other words, if an organisation was not fulfilling its responsibilities according to employment law and it was adjudicated not to be doing so by an independent organisation, such as the Workplace Relations Commission, perhaps the Arts Council could withdraw funds from that organisation. Does the Arts Council have the power to do that and has it ever done it?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

We have a very detailed set of conditions and financial systems, the various parts of which Ms McBride addressed earlier. Every organisation that we offer funding to has to accept those conditions of financial assistance as part of the offer. Essentially, the payments are conditioned to be released on satisfactory compliance with those conditions.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that include harassment and bullying issues?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

We are not a regulator. That is the first point. We have detailed guidelines around governance and what organisations must have in place. The bodies that we fund are companies limited by guarantee. The board members have the responsibility - as the fiduciaries of the members - to run the organisation, along with the governance standards that we clearly set out in our conditions of financial assistance.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to interrupt but I want to be specific around those two particular criteria that would be in employment law, bullying and harassment. Would they be part of the criteria by which the Arts Council adjudges whether or not an organisation should get funding? Second, because it could be a Bill that we could bring in, for example, to give the Arts Council the power to potentially withdraw funding if they were not met, does the Arts Council already have that power and has it already used it?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

The power is in the conditions of financial assistance in the sense that - they are set out in detail - it is the duty of the board to put the mechanisms in place to ensure that they are effective in terms of the roll-out across individual organisations.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have funds ever been withdrawn from an organisation previously?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

We have restricted funding until certain matters were completed.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One other thing, €68 million is a fantastic budget. It is a big budget and it comes with heavy responsibilities the Arts Council obviously takes seriously. Interestingly, it was asked of me would it be a good idea for the chairperson of the council to have the same duties as an Accounting Officer with regards to the disposal of funding so that he or she would be considered an Accounting Officer in the eyes of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Committee of Public Accounts, etc. It is a good chunk of funding and maybe there would be greater scope for the House to tease out how moneys are spent.

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

The director is the Accounting Officer for the Arts Council. The council is the decision maker in terms of the ultimate funding decision that is being made. Of course, as the Chairman will be aware, under the Act, the council is independent in that role. The process is clear. It is awarded on a merit basis in terms of the various assessment processes that the director read out earlier.

The recommendation is sent to the council for its final consideration. I think the processes are very strong at present.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My next question does not refer to any individuals whatsoever. The arts space is small and, therefore, people get to know each other very well. How often is the board of directors for the Arts Council, for example, renewed? Is it renewed every five or ten years? How regularly would a board member step down? Can he or she rejoin after a couple of years?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

The Act clearly sets out the process. The Minister, through the Public Appointments Service, appoints the recommended members to the board. Appointments are made on a split basis. That means half of the board steps down every two and half years. It is a very robust appointment process.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it a five-year term?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

Yes. That is right.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could an arts officer or artist in Ennis apply, for example? Are members drawn from a broad range of sectors? Is selection based on certain criteria?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

It is a public appointments process. There is an open application. Members are selected in line with the criteria and a shortlist is prepared. The Department is better placed to answer such questions.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do board members step out of meetings that discuss funding for certain organisations if there is a conflict of interest?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

Yes. We have very strict governance procedures around conflicts of interest. Obviously the Act set it out very clearly. Both our own Act and the ethics Act contain prescriptive definitions and ways to deal with conflicts. We, as an organisation, apply best practice governance, which the members are made aware of when they are inducted. Such practices are followed carefully for every meeting.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is an affirmative demographic criterion used to deliver funds? In other words, if one wants a particular socioeconomic cohort to be represented when it comes to funding, perhaps percentage-wise, does that aspect form part of the governance of funding?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

It is an open process in the sense that the application sets the criteria. The assessment process awards the best application that meets those criteria.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there an affirmative element in terms of socioeconomic brackets?

Ms Sheila Pratschke:

In recent years, as we have developed our ten-year strategy - we are in the middle of the first three-year plan part of it - we have gradually introduced new elements. Those elements the Chairman mentioned, such as funding directed towards areas of deprivation, geographic spread, gender balance and so on have become gradually integrated into our decision-making process. This approach needs to be further formalised but it certainly forms part of our thinking. One can see from our past decisions that there is widespread funding throughout the country.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good.

It has been mentioned in the reports that the Arts Council has appointed an independent auditor. I understand that an auditor employed by the Arts Council goes into some of the multi-annual funded organisations and examines whether the funding has been spent according to the prospectus. Does the auditor play a role in protecting workers' rights and preventing bullying or harassment?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Ms Sheila Pratschke:

Yes. That is part of the contract that the auditor signs with us.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Arts Council is not a regulatory body and I do not necessarily think it should be. Can an independent auditor be used to resolve some of the problems that have occurred in the industry in the past number of years? How can we improve the system?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

I think we should not do it through an independent audit or an inspectorate process. It should be built into the culture of the organisation. For example, in the spring we will provide a series of workshops to arts organisations around the country because we want to ensure the best policies and procedures are in place to protect their workers against any kind of discrimination, bullying or harassment. Working with organisations to ensure that that is built into the culture of the organisation would be much more effective than using an inspectorate-type process to ensure that is in place. Building it in from the outset is the piece that is really important because that is the bit then that will reach people in an organisation who may be experiencing something that is unpleasant and want to bring it to someone's attention. That is the process that we will implement in spring 2018.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My last question is for the Department. The previous Minister, Deputy Humphreys, indicated that she would develop a forum comprised of the heads of the theatres. Can the Department update us on the matter? It might be a good idea were a longer and more embedded industry-wide forum to be developed. Some of the problems that have happened in the arts sector and in the film sector, which is similar, are due to the precarious nature of the work. Workers work on a particular project and when that employment ceases, they must pitch for the next project. There is a risk that if one uses the mechanisms of the State to defend one's rights, one would get a name for oneself, be blacklisted and not be re-employed by the organisation. This issue is particularly prominent in the film industry. Would it be useful to ascertain whether a forum could be constructed that included all of the stakeholders, including unions, representatives etc. in the film and theatre sectors, to consider ways to eradicate the precarious work practices while still allowing the sectors to grow and strengthen?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

On 16 November, the previous Minister met representatives of the eight theatres who had signed a statement on the abuse of power and harassment. On that occasion there was a particular focus on the theatre sector. It was agreed that the Department would assist the sector in coming forward with proposals that might help to deal with this issue of culture. Arising out of that meeting, the Irish Theatre Institute, which offers support services to the industry, has worked to develop a number of proposals to put forward a positive engagement, which would be forward-looking in terms of what the sector can do or what can be done to assist the sector. The questions the Chairman has raised would be central to the discussion. The initiative will come from the theatre sector. The Department does not control it but has offered to help. We are very close to agreeing a proposal and the Irish Theatre Institute will announce some proposals in that regard, which may lead to a longer-term process. The Department has facilitated a safe space for discussion, thus allowing the sector to identify proposals for a better way forward. I think the Department will be supportive of any proposals.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms McBride for her excellent opening statement. While I acknowledge that part of being a member of the committee is to be educated and informed, one could have read her statement in a pamphlet. As for decision-making, accounts, plenary councils and peer panels and application processes, I am aware the Arts Council does things absolutely correctly but I would have liked more funding examples. The Arts Council does extraordinary work in disadvantaged areas and is cognisant of geographical spread. She might give us an example of that. I would particularly like to hear about something the Arts Council took on from its inception that went on to achieve great success due to the council's intuition, processes, etc. I felt we lost out on an example even though I acknowledge Ms McBride was outlining the governance background.

How much time must the Arts Council spend on grant applications and decisions and how much does that eat into what the council would prefer to be doing by way of developing ideas? How could we best facilitate that? Ms McBride stated such matters should not be separate, that there should not be an organisation sitting in an annexe doing all that but that the work should be integrated. How much does that eat into the Arts Council being a purveyor of great ideas and voicing them, instead of being the place to apply to or where someone's application was turned down? Could Ms McBride talk about that balance and whether she needs more staff for that balance?

Has there been a recent survey of what agencies, artists or artistic organisations think of the Arts Council and what it has learnt from that? I am not talking about hearsay at bus stops. How long do all the checks and assessments take?

I thank Mr. Ó Coigligh for his contribution. There is a new Minister. I wish her and the Department the best of luck in her new portfolio.

Can Ms Copeland outline her role in Creative Ireland? What does it intend to do? Where will the €6 million be spent? Where stands the arm's-length approach of the Department? It it getting into the territory of giving out money to artists and agencies and deciding on cultural programmes around the country? I felt Creative Ireland was happening anyway and it was not the Department that purveyed it. The St. Patrick's Day parades, for example, show what is happening artistically in every area of Ireland up to Carndonagh and further. Where does encroachment begin and Creative Ireland end, for example, in giving money to cultural organisations? Is it the new Arts Council? Is it an annexe to the Arts Council, which will make decisions? How will it make these decisions? I know the Department makes decisions on the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the Crawford Art Gallery, the National Concert Hall, our orchestras and so on, which is very important but where does that begin and end?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

I will take the questions in reverse order. The turnaround for applications depends on the type of application. We can turn the small applications around relatively quickly but the big ones for significant sums of money as part of our annual funding take approximately 16 weeks from the date of receipt of the application, which would normally be in September, until the decision is made and communicated in December.

We have procured a company, Coyne Consulting, which has conducted the first open survey of organisations and artists that have either received or not received, applied or had difficulty applying for, Arts Council funding to ensure that we do not just ask people who have been in receipt of funding what they think of the Arts Council, the service, the experience etc. We were invited to speak on governance and we presented that in the strictest sense of the word but if the committee wants to talk about the kinds of organisation and the experiences we have funded in recent years, we have made participatory arts a priority. They are arts activities happening in different communities and locations, for example, we invested a large sum of money in Arts & Disability Ireland in recent years. It has transformed the capacity of people with disabilities to access the arts and to make extraordinary art. This year, and in recent years, we have prioritised funding for children and young people. This year, as part of our new strategic funding programme, we have increased funding from 15 organisations annually to 30. They work with children and young people, in areas of disadvantage and rural communities doing youth theatre and dance. We are also going to launch the Creative Schools programme in the coming weeks, which will reach into 150 schools around the country in 2018. We have identified schools that participate in the delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, scheme, as well as in rural, urban and Irish language communities and so on. We are beginning to ensure we are reaching out as far as we can within the available resources. Between 70% and 80% on the Arts Council's internal resource is spent on funding. That is too much but we lost one third of our staff and are only now building the staff up to ensure we can spend more than 20% or 30% of our time thinking and imagining how we develop and support artists and arts organisations for the next ten years in Ireland.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a very important point because it seems contradictory for the Arts Council to spend 70% or 80% of its time on dealing with applications and getting the funding out. It does not have the same emphasis on who and what it is, as Ms McBride described it, dealing with disability, children, age, for example, the Bealtaine Festival for older people. Is that changing and if so how quickly?

Has the CARA survey come out yet?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

No, but I think there is a meeting with the company today.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be interesting because it seems to undermine who and what the Arts Council is and the good work it does, that we do not hear enough about what it is doing because 70% or 80% of its time it is bogged down in reading the applications and making governance decisions based on quality. Would Ms McBride agree with that? How does the council get out of that?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

The Senator should not forget that 70% is the time spent with organisations, talking to them, understanding them and learning what they are doing. That is where the extraordinary work is happening around the country. That is where people from Donegal to Kerry are participating in the arts, children from nine months of age to people involved in the Bealtaine Festival are participating in arts experiences. By working with organisations we understand how we can make an impact on the lives of people around the country through the arts and culture. It is a balance because they are the people making and creating the work. It is a question of how we work with them and them have thinking time to begin to look to the future.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Arts Council were to be given a gift of something what would that be?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

It would be to return the staff to 2008-09 levels to free us from spending 70% or 80% of time spent on funding and not having more time to pursue other activities.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

The Creative Ireland programme is not a separate entity or organisation. It is a Government initiative working within the Department as part of its Vote.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is separate insofar as it costs €6 million.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

It is no different from any other departmental programme in having a budget line. There is no attempt within the Department to rival the Arts Council. The ambition of the Government through the Creative Ireland programme is to make arts, culture and creativity more central to all Departments. That in itself should help release resources for the Arts Council and the Irish Film Board.

Where we are trying to get in the Creative Ireland programme is to a space of greater collaboration. While we respect the arm's length principle in Arts Council decision-making, there is nothing to fear from the Arts Council and the Departments of Education and Skills and Children and Youth Affairs working collaboratively on new initiatives. That is part of it. A significant element of our funding goes to local authorities. The Arts Council also provides funding to local authorities. However, we are going through culture teams which encompass not only arts officers but also heritage officers, librarians and archivists. In the past, they have all been funded through separate streams and we are bringing them all together. It is very much a result of how that worked in the 1916 centenary commemorations. The Senator is right that-----

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will they lose their autonomy when the Department - like Tesco - brings them all together?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have given 15 minutes for the Senator's answers. We can come back to it again.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

Just to say, it brings about a fantastic collaborative spirit in that we call the Creative Ireland co-ordinators together on a very regular basis to work with them, the Arts Council and the Heritage Council to see what more we can do. It is about exploiting that creativity the Senator identified.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As long as it does not become a control mechanism where everyone must come together like a supermarket and stock the shelves in the same way.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

No.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is something about that. We will see; it is a new initiative.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

It is new, yes.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Artists have to have freedom and the bringing together is not necessary in that they do it in any event. I am not sure about that parallel. I know there are great artistic things happening around the country and I wonder about the bandwagon element of what the Department is at.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

We are trying to highlight that and give it greater visibility.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Arts Council and the officials from Department for attending. I appreciate what Ms McBride said about looking into who has and who has not received funding down through the years. That is hugely important, in fairness, because there seems to be a lot of money out there which might be made available to community and voluntary organisations. In my constituency, Cork South-West, I receive a lot of criticism that organisations do not get enough funding for the arts whether through the council or the Department. Perhaps they do and they are not acknowledging it. That might be something the witnesses could discuss. How is it filtering down to the rural community and voluntary organisations? Are they getting the funding or are they misleading me?

Slightly differently to the Chair, I note the following. It is obvious that we must have regulation, but we have to be careful too in that a lot of these voluntary organisations are stretched to the limit. They are overly regulated and trying to comply with the rules of companies limited by guarantee, constitutions and Garda clearance, which one has to get to sit at a meeting. One has to get another Garda clearance to drive the bus and a further one to do meals on wheels. Where are we going to stop? In the name of God, these are voluntary organisations and people are stretched to the limit. I am in one voluntary organisation in Goleen where we pay €7,000 between insurance and accounts and up to €8,000 and €9,000 to run a festival. There is little or no help out there. Where does the money come from to pay €3,000 to accountants and €4,000 to an insurer before the year even starts? It is coming from the community. I would appreciate it if the witnesses directed me as to how these funds are filtering down to rural community voluntary organisations as well as those in urban areas. They are working hard and finding it very difficult. If they continue to be squeezed, a lot of people will walk away from the organisations with which they are involved.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Michael Collins will have no problem now because he is going to get €5 million from Creative Ireland and the Department.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope sincerely that works.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is going to filter down to west Cork.

Ms Orlaith McBride:

We work with small organisations in receipt of funding under €25,000 and we ask them for different reports than the reports we request from organisations in receipt of moneys in excess of that. For example, we demand much more of West Cork Music in terms of assurances about the use of the resources than we do of Fit-Up, a small theatre festival in Deputy Michael Collins's constituency which gets approximately €8,000 from us. We ask much less of them because they are getting far less money. We have a small festivals scheme for small voluntary organisations and it covers approximately 150 to 160 festivals, which are tiny events. Some of them get only €3,000 or €4,000 a year but for them it is a huge amount of money. There is other funding at local level and we also work very much in partnership with local authorities to ensure they support the local and voluntary sector. As such, the reporting requirements are relative to the amount of funding. An organisation in receipt of €4,000 is not asked for the same level of reporting as an organisation in receipt of €250,000. We have schemes which are focused on smaller voluntary organisations which do not have a whole structure surrounding them. They simply involve people giving of their time and making applications. We understand that as much as we can.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

The Arts Council is the arm of the State which is there to provide funding support for the arts at all levels. The Department provides capital support primarily. The West Cork Arts Centre is an example of a major investment by the Department in recent years. The other arm of the State which the Department supports is local government to strengthen the role of arts, culture and creativity in the local government sector. That is where we are trying to focus a great deal more attention to utilise the resources the Arts Council is providing. We seek to bolster creativity and culture at local level. It is only a small amount of money when it is divvied up between 31 local authorities, but they also have a role to play.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank everyone for coming in. Mr. O'Sullivan and the Chairman discussed conflicts of interest. My question is a general one in that regard. If I were on the board of the Arts Council and had previous involvement with a traditional folk band, would I remove myself from conversations specific to that application or from the competition entirely? That might not be relevant to larger funding schemes, such as those for theatres, but it may be relevant to festivals or traditional music. Would the person with the conflict of interest remove himself or herself from the entire competition or leave the room solely for the conversation around the group with which he or she was involved?

Mr. Martin O'Sullivan:

Under the conflict of interest procedures, the individual would have to declare clearly that he or she had a conflict regarding the particular applicant. What the Arts Council wants in its membership is balance. In order to get the breadth of discussion on traditional arts, it is very important that the traditional artists on the council are there not to influence but to give the perspective of the sector. "Artist" is a broad term so there are members from different areas. The best decision-making happens through that type of process, but there is no doubt that for any discussion of particulars and any decision, the person leaves the room.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I note to Ms Copeland that I received an FOI response from Government late last year on the €4.4 million spent on the Creative Ireland programme to date. A total of 30% of this money was spent on marketing, €760,000 on media advertising, €330,000 on social media and €192,000 on website development.

In the absence of any real return to pre-recession levels of arts funding from the Government, is it quite lavish to be spending so much on marketing? I accept that it is the first year of the initiative and that designers and printers, etc., play a part in marketing as well, but is it quite lavish to spend so much on this rather than directly supporting the work of artists?

Ms Sinead Copeland:

The money that was spent on that kind of wider citizen engagement plan was allocated in the first year of the programme to really get to grips with what the programme is about and to showcase the breadth of activity that is happening out there at national and local level. We broke that down under national and regional headings to try and get a really wide spread. There is so much more uptake of information on digital platforms now, and we felt that, based on previous experience - in particular the Ireland 2016 centenary programme - it was a good investment in the first year in order to try and get good quality content and products. That is why we chose to do this in the first year.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My next question is for Mr. Ó Coigligh. Bodies such as the Arts Council and the Irish Film Board provide necessary finance for artists. These bodies cannot perform to full capacity unless the Government gives serious consideration to them. Does the Department or Government have any timeline on achieving the doubling of funding, which is the Taoiseach's strategy?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

Yes.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The 6% increase mooted every year will not achieve that, but is there a timeline or a pathway to achieving that increase?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

All I can do is reiterate what the Taoiseach said in the Dáil and at the Creative Ireland forum in December. He said that he was committed to the doubling of funding for arts-culture and sport over seven years. That is the commitment the Taoiseach has made.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that this is not part of the conversation and the witness does not have to answer it, but has the Department made a comment on the RTÉ review of the orchestras?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

The Department has been in contact with our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. There is an analogous position for the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment in that RTÉ is also an arm's length body. I understand that in the first instance it is an internal review, but the Department and the Minister are very mindful of the importance of orchestral music and the employment that provides in the sector. We keep in close contact with our colleagues in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. When RTÉ finalises its review I am sure that it will be subject to further discussion.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Capital was mentioned. I met with an artists-led studio spaces initiative in the city centre. Block T has closed. Others in Cork have closed. Sinn Féin has called for an artists' studio spaces scheme. Is space for artists something the Department is mindful of? It does not require as much current funding following the capital construction allocation. Artists are concerned about capital infrastructure, and that is fair and valid because the current funding is lacking.

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

We are very mindful of that. We have had some discussions with the Arts Council and Dublin City Council. It is something we are open to looking at if any concrete proposals come forward. Many local authorities do good work in trying to identify spaces. Our existing capital grant scheme, under which we awarded grants in 2017, provided supports for a number of studio spaces, so it is absolutely something we are open to.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The European Commission stated that the UK would no longer be eligible to have a host city as part of the European city of culture. I would appeal that consideration be given to the facilitation of a potential joint bid from Derry and Belfast within that competition.

My next question is for Ms McBride, on the Creative Children initiative. Is that under the Creative Ireland strand?

Ms Orlaith McBride:

Yes, Creative Children is strand 2 of Creative Ireland. As part of that we have developed Creative Schools. Creative Ireland has provided separate funding to roll out the Creative Schools programme. We have also received quite significant funding from the Department of Education and Skills, which for us is an extraordinary achievement. The Arts Council is also investing some of its own resources in it as well. That is starting this year.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the outside resources there to deliver it or-----

Ms Orlaith McBride:

It will help start it. The initiative is being rolled out to 150 schools this year, but there are 3,000 primary schools and 900 secondary schools in the country, so significant resources will be required to roll this out as a national programme. We believe that the programme will be so good that once the first 150 schools experience it, it will become a national programme.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cuirim céad fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Tá brón orm nach raibh mé anseo ag tús na díospóireachta. I apologise for not being here at the beginning, but I have read the statements. When I was involved in theatre many years ago a very good friend of mine, who was a set designer and who went on to win an Irish Timesaward, was in the middle of building a set for one of our productions and had to go and sign on the dole. The lady in the dole office asked him how he was doing, and his answer to him was that he was flat out. She looked at him and raised her eyebrow, but she signed him off anyway and he got his dole for that week. That was back in the 80s, when we would have described the Arts Council as a FÁS scheme or the dole because many artists were dependent on that.

The budget announced the "artists' dole", as it has been called, as a pilot scheme. I would appreciate an update as to how that is working, how many people have applied for it, whether it is successful and whether it is going to be extended. Many artists say to me that they are living hand to mouth and are very much dependent on the jobseeker's allowance, but they have the indignity of having to apply for it every time they finish a commission, for example, and the uneven nature of their income really affects it.

Another issue that has been raised with me by many local artists is the Per Cent for Art scheme, where capital projects can spend moneys on art. We have seen some wonderful pieces of art and also seen some fairly unwonderful pieces of art under that scheme, but I know that it has been used in nursing homes and schools, etc. I get a sense that not all potential capital projects are availing of that opportunity and that it would be a fantastic source of income for many artists who are really struggling at the moment, particularly smaller artists, and that it would bring arts to rural areas. Who is pushing that scheme? Who is overseeing the scheme? Why are we not seeing more art happening under the scheme?

On the issue of governance, the role of Aosdána and its independence under the funding scheme available through the Arts Council arises. It is important to ensure that Aosdána is a relevant organisation. I understand there is a review ongoing. This may have been mentioned already, and I apologise if that is the case. Could the witnesses talk to us about the future of Aosdána and how it is looked upon?

Obviously, táim tiomanta do chúrsaí Gaeilge. Fáiltím roimh an airgead a cuireadh ar fáil d'Ealaín na Gaeltachta. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach. The funding for Ealaín na Gaeltachta is absolutely essential, but what is the Irish language policy as it relates to the arts, the Department and the Arts Council? We have a national theatre which has not produced an Irish language production in almost 20 years, which I think is absolutely disgraceful. I wonder, from a policy perspective and Government perspective, why national organisations are not encouraged to do more work through the medium of the Irish language.

There is a sense among the arts community that there are quite a few large clients of the Arts Council who get a huge chunk of funding on an annual basis. Some would say it is warranted, while others ask why these clients get the same amount every year and call it a closed shop.

A number of stakeholders seem to lionise the available funding which makes it very difficult for newcomers or new and creative artists to break into the existing funding models. What is being done from a governance perspective to ensure the bigger organisations will not get too comfortable with the funding they are receiving and that space will be given to new groups?

Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:

Tá mé sásta tabhairt faoin a oiread agus is féidir liom. The artists scheme in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is scheduled to be reviewed after a year. We will begin to look at that issue. I do not have the numbers with me, but we can come back to the committee to see how the scheme is operating. We do not believe a huge number of artists are availing of the scheme which is focused on visual artists and writers, but that matter needs more consideration.

The percent for art scheme has been very successful. I suspect that one of the things that happened in that regard was that artists lost out hugely when capital investment in the State generally collapsed, but it is beginning to ramp up again. The Minister very recently committed to considering the scheme which needs to be refreshed. We will work with the Arts Council in that regard. Most public sector organisations still utilise it, but a couple of gaps are emerging.

I dtaca le cúrsaí Gaeilge, táimid sa Roinn tiomanta don Ghaeilge freisin. Is é seo Bliain na Gaeilge chomh maith. We are going to integrate bliain na Gaeilge and the Creative Ireland programme a oiread agus is féidir linn. On the small amount we give in support to local authorities to help to develop their Creative Ireland programmes through the cultural teams, we will be asking them to ensure they make provision for events as part of Bliain na Gaeilge. It is of great benefit because it involves the Gaeltacht and cultural sections of the Department working very closely together. We are happy to try to deepen that relationship as much as we can. Sílim gur sin an méid ar mo thaobh.

Ms Orlaith McBride:

We met Foras na Gaeilge approximately two weeks ago to consider how we might work together during Bliain na Gaeilge. As regards the Arts Council and artists and organisations which happen to be in Gaeltacht areas such as Ealaín na Gaeltachta, we are not investing in such organisations because they are using Irish as part of their work; therefore, we have to be very careful. That is why it was very good to meet Foras na Gaeilge to be very clear on what our respective responsibilities were and to then look at ways in which we could support each other and work together.

As regards the Irish language, the Abbey Theatre was mentioned. As members know, two years ago An Taibhdhearc brought its work to the Abbey Theatre. Anne McCabe has now been chosen for the Irish language 5x5 award as part of the Abbey Theatre's outreach projects. The Abbey Theatre is beginning to open up in that way to Irish language artists.

We do not stop funding an organisation just because it is a large client and has been in receipt of money for many years. For example, we are not going to stop funding the Irish Traditional Music Archive or the Galway Arts Festival just because they have received money for many years. If they continue to be relevant, produce work, engage with the public and be the best they can, we will continue to fund them. The issue in recent years is that new organisations have been knocking on our door but have not been able to get in because we have not had additional resources. This year we reformed our full funding framework and programmes and have two new funding schemes - strategic funding and arts grants funding. That arts grants funding scheme is being established to ensure organisations that might have received a small amount of project funding this year, that will receive none the following year and a small amount the year after that will now be able to receive funding on a more regular basis to produce work and, it is to be hoped, in a number of years a big event such as the Galway Arts Festival, the traditional music archive or the Wexford Festival Opera. However, it all depends on the available resources.

Ms Sheila Pratschke:

I will deal briefly the Aosdána matter. Joining Aosdána is, first and foremost, an honour for an artist, but we understand the Cnuas grant is a very important element of it for artists. The award of the Cnuas grant is one of the very best ways we can support artists in their middle and later years. It has never been under question or threat and the council is completely committed to it. We are in ongoing discussions with Aosdána about a certain amount of reform of the system whereby people would be elected or invited to join, etc. However, the Cnuas grant is sacrosanct.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When does Ms Nash think the review of Aosdána will be finished?

Ms Sheila Pratschke:

I have one year of service remaining and would love the review to be completed before I finish.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was waiting and listening and very taken by what had been said. I thank all participants for their contributions.

I come from Galway east. People in that area - Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh has just left the meeting - often say we are the poor relation compared to Galway city when it comes to the arts. The delegates mentioned the Galway Arts Festival, but there was a Tuam Arts Festival which ran for one year and had to give up because it failed to secure funding. It died about five years ago because it totally lacked support. It goes back to the point about how one deals with smaller groups when the larger, successful groups have received funding. We do not want the Tuam or Loughrea arts festival to be like the Galway Arts Festival, but we want them to be able to do what they can in the right way with support. As a former councillor, my impression is that the Arts Council is in place for the big people and organisations and that the small or emerging artists are left to either make or break it on their own. There should be a change of emphasis in the percentage of funding we give out. I am not saying we should stop funding the bigger guys but that a larger percentage of the overall cake should be given to smaller and emerging artists on an ongoing basis because we do not want to have elite organisations and then nothing else. I am impressed by and very confident in the schools programme and all that goes on in that regard, but we need a shift such that people who are thinking about starting something in places such as Tuam, Loughea, Gort or any other small town will have a sense that help will be available and will have the confidence to take it on. As Deputy Michael Collins said, a lot of labour-intensive work goes into such initiatives.

Another issue in smaller places in which shows or something similar are put on is that there is no designated place to store sets or equipment in order to use them again. Groups are storing them in houses or sheds attached to private houses which, if they went on fire, they would have no insurance cover them. Public buildings are available which should be brought to the attention of the relevant local authority. For example, a new fire station is being built in Tuam. The old fire station building would be ideal for use as a storage area or workshop, but who will provide the small amount of funding needed to make it workable? These are the small things that would create a lot more around the country, as well as the schools and creative programme in which Ms Copeland is involved. However, there is confusion among those involved because one may have to deal with the Arts Council, the Department and the local authority. Why do we not have a one stop shop from which people could obtain advice and funding forms in order that they would be talking to one voice rather than having a fragmented approach? That is why I expressed concern about the Creative Ireland initiative, which involves the Department and Creative Ireland. There is confusion about the initiative among those who want to start something, although perhaps not for me having listened to the delegates.

I commend them on all of the work being done, but like everything else, improvements could be made, as we need to improve matters. I know that they are passionate about what they do, which has come through in the presentations. I will not put questions to them. I thank them for their presentations and wish them well in their future work.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat faoí sin. The good work which forms the vast part of the picture has to be recognised, but there are critical difficulties in the sector, although I appreciate efforts are being made to change the culture, which is really important work.

I understand workers need a safe place in which to contribute in the arts sector. From the perspective of the Department and the Arts Council, I would like them to have an ongoing conversation with the committee about the tools that are necessary to strengthen their ability to ensure the system of governance will create a healthier working environment.

I thank the delegates and wish them the best of luck

The joint committee went into private session at 3 p.m. and adjourned at 3.20 p.m. sine die.