Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We have a quorum and will commence in public session. At the request of the broadcasting and recording services, members are reminded to ensure their mobile telephones are turned off or switched to aeroplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their device, for the duration of the meeting. It is not sufficient to put telephones on silent mode, as that would maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system.

I remind members that the committee will conduct the public session first and then at 11 a.m. we will go into private session for an hour to work on our report as a committee. Is that agreed? Agreed. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the national planning framework. I welcome the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and his officials to today's meeting.

Each member will have five minutes to engage with the Minister. After five minutes we will move to the next member and I would ask members where possible to stick to that and to respect the time so that each member has an opportunity to speak. I will call members again at the end. We will have another round of questions, if there is time. Before we begin, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members. I am joined today by officials Mr. David Walsh, Mr. Paul Hogan and Mr. Niall Cussen. I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee today on the draft national planning framework, entitled Ireland 2040: Our Plan. The Government has been working on this plan since the end of 2014 and there have been public consultations, regional events and debates, including by this committee and other joint committees, feedback from an expert advisory group and over 700 detailed submissions from a whole range of stakeholders.

The draft national planning framework has now been published for one final period of public consultation. As part of this consultation, a further series of regional seminars are being organised by each of the three regional assemblies, with the first one happening in Waterford this Friday. The conclusions of this committee will be very valuable in finalising the framework by the end of this year and in tandem with a new ten-year national investment plan.

The national planning framework is primarily about planning properly for what will be one of the fastest growing economies in Europe over the next couple of decades, focusing development in existing villages, towns and cities and realising the potential of our regions and our rural areas. There will be at least an extra 1 million people living in the Republic by 2040, taking the population to 5.75 million. This is a 20% increase. The all-island population will be roughly 8 million people by 2040. There will be an extra 600,000 jobs, mainly in the knowledge economy and in services. We will need at least 500,000 new homes for our growing population, and to meet the different housing needs of future generations. The population aged over 65 will double to 1.3 million people, or almost 25% of the total population over the next 20 years.

There are political, economic and environmental challenges to be aware of too. Brexit is the most obvious one, but also the future of the European Union and how it might evolve and how that might challenge us; the current risks to free trade being posed by the policies of certain countries and how this might impact on areas like foreign direct investment; technology and the changes it will bring, for how we work and where we live, planning for things like remote working, the shared economy, automation and artificial intelligence; communities, and protecting communities as we grow, providing better opportunities as we adapt, regenerating parts of our country that exhibit the signs of disadvantage and unrealised opportunities where we can, and because we must; and climate change. As recent events remind us, our climate is changing and we need to take both the immediate steps to adapt to those changes and put in train changes to address the drivers of climate change, by de-carbonising our way of life and taking advantage of the many opportunities that come from that.

The population of Ireland grew by 53,000 people in the year to April 2017. This is the largest increase since 2008. It is 1.1% year-on-year growth when the rest of the euro area was essentially static. Half the daytime population of Ireland’s three largest cities travel from outside the cities. One quarter of Leinster’s working population travel into Dublin each day. In 2016, 230,000 people commuted at least an hour a day each way, a 30% increase in long commutes in just five years. Just think about what that means for families in terms of quality of life. If we learnt anything from the so-called Celtic Tiger era, it was that our future does not lie in our people living in one location, and commuting up to 100 km away to work, juggling work and family lives and losing the battle to strike a reasonable balance. If Ireland continues to develop in the way it always has, with our cities and towns growing fastest at their edges, not in their centres, with our regions and regional cities underperforming, we face a lose-lose strategy for both our urban and rural areas and the people who live and work in them. Therefore, our national planning framework has to have a vision that will navigate us through these challenges, both the existing ones we know of like revitalising our communities, creating better opportunities, improving quality of life and protecting the environment as well as the challenges that may face us in the future due to developments external to us.

Building on our strengths, we are in the top ten when it comes to human development, GDP per capita, foreign direct investment and democracy. However, in tackling the challenges, we fall into the top 20 when it comes to quality of life and environmental performance, particularly the relative carbon footprint per capitacompared to our EU neighbours, and we fall into the top 30 when we talk about liveable cities.

We have undertaken extensive economic and demographic analysis with the help of the ESRI to plot out different scenarios and see which ones make the best use of our resources, our existing communities, our economic, social and environmental opportunities. We have come up with an approach, outlined in the draft framework, that sets out the most sustainable and balanced vision. When we look at the growth of 1 million people and where they might live, we have to try to manage that growth between our five big cities, as well as between our three regions. That means that 25% of national growth should be happening within Dublin, and half of that within the M50. We will need joined-up planning across the local authorities involved, as well as new long-term land plans, for example the redevelopment of the Long Mile and Naas roads. It means another 25% of our forecast growth happening in the cities of Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway. Each will have to effectively double in population size at least. Much of Limerick’s growth should be within the Georgian core, while Waterford has significant potential along the North Quays.

Half of the total population growth, almost half a million extra people, will happen everywhere else, spread across our villages, towns and wider rural areas. Another way to look at it is that half of the total anticipated growth will take place on the eastern seaboard and in the midlands, and the other half will take place in the southern, western and northern regions. This all has significant implications for how we develop our urban and rural places.

If we think back to that quality of life challenge, we must ensure we are creating lasting communities where people can avail of greater opportunities as well as benefit from better standards of living, including access to high quality education and excellence in healthcare, which are specifically addressed in chapters five and nine. Recognising that by 2040, a quarter of our population will be over the age of 65 this in turn means planning for a greater level of people with disability or other health needs and their quality of life, within communities. This includes affordability, being able to live close to work, at an affordable price, so that people can live their lives the way they choose to. The draft strategy included in this framework addresses all communities and consequently and its implementation is designed to benefit all people, without exception.

We have had spatial strategies before. They failed to deliver on their potential, so how will the national planning framework be different? First, it is going to be aligned across Government Departments and agencies, so there will be coherence between what the framework envisions and what others are planning, be it in regard to schools, hospitals or roads. For the first time, the national planning framework will align with a ten-year national investment plan. We are putting our money where our mouth is. Second, our capital investment will underpin our planning framework so that these plans are real and realisable. Third, the national framework will be the bedrock or foundation for a new tier of plans at regional and local levels which will provide a coherent and joined-up vision between the different levels of planning, implementation and monitoring. The framework will be completed this year.

Next year, our three regions will be tasked with coming up with more specific regional, spatial and economic strategies. These will be based upon the framework and will set out in more detail what is needed and will be prioritised to deliver on the vision. Thereafter, city and county plans and local area plans will be based upon those regional plans. This will be the new hierarchy, and it will be set down in law, through the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2016 that is currently progressing through the Dáil.

We intend to put in place a smart growth fund to enable regions and local authorities to target growth and development for key areas by competing for additional funding based on the merits of the project and as long as it is in line with the ten-year national investment plan and the national planning framework. There will also be a more streamlined approach to the strategic management of a very considerable landbank of publicly owned lands in and around our key cities and towns. In too many cases they are currently lying idle and are not making the contribution they should be to our economic and social development in many areas, including housing and job creation.

I expect this morning’s session to be very fruitful in terms of gaining valued input and feedback from all present in the room today, as well as from the many submissions that are likely to be made on the draft framework by the 3 November deadline. We would especially value the input of members in areas specific, but not limited, to elements of implementation such as alignment with the capital investment plan, land management and more innovative forms of implementation.

I thank the committee for its time. I am happy to answer any questions or address any issues that members may have.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I call Senator Victor Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. At the outset, I want to acknowledge the high quality and standard of this production. It is exceptional. I have been around a number of local authorities and spoken on this, and encouraged people. I would renew a call again today for the Minister, conscious that the public consultation process ends on 3 November, to continue the excellent promotion and the public relations efforts that marked the beginning of the process. It needs another push. It is critical to this process that local authority members feel fully engaged. That will lead me into another issue in a moment and a question in regard to the hierarchy of the plans. That is very important in terms of democracy and representation.

It is important that local authority members feel fully included in this process. I know that they are included but that must be emphasised to the elected members and the executives of the 31 local authorities because if this plan is to work and bring us to 2040, it must be embraced and supported by the various sectors but particularly by local government.

I want to acknowledge that this is an outstanding production. It is very easy to digest and understand. We will have an opportunity to contribute to it. I know that I will, as a citizen, be making a submission and that is important. The plan sets down certain standards and has a vision. It is a very good vision and it is very impressive.

In terms of the hierarchy of plans, clearly we would have county development plans and they are very important in the local process. Such plans are relatively short, covering only five or six years. There is a case to be made for pushing out the length of county development plans but perhaps this plan will take over in that regard. In terms of the hierarchy, it is important that people feel that their local process is feeding in and that the county development plans are feeding into the national planning framework. This is, effectively, the national planning framework which affects regional and local government as well as local economic bodies. It is an economic plan that will, hopefully, be sustainable into the future.

I also want to acknowledge that it recognises that there is a continued need for housing provision for people living and working in rural parts of Ireland. People seem to think that this is about centralising in the regions in places like Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Drogheda and Dublin. That must be dealt with, as the Minister has said, in terms of infrastructure and so forth but there is a very special place for rural villages and towns in this country. While there must be a different way of doing business, it is important that this message is made clear. This is not just about the big cities but also about sustainable living in small communities around the country.

I would like the Minister and his Department to focus resources on galvanising and encouraging more input into this process in the coming weeks so that we have a plan that has been widely discussed and on which there has been wide engagement. Well done, it is a great piece of work.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Boyhan for his contribution. A lot of work has been put into this. A Government decision was made at the end of 2014 to move to this new national planning framework and officials in the Department have been doing a huge amount of work on it since then. I am particularly proud of the logo because I picked it but that is about the extent of my involvement in terms of the production of the plan.

The Senator is absolutely right about engaging local authority members and the regional assemblies. I have written to each local authority. Three regional meetings will be held in due course. I intend to be at two of them, with the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, attending the third, for this final phase of consultation. The Senator is right that it is very important that the people who are going to be implementing this plan at a regional level buy into it. This is not about central Government saying "You must do this". It is a foundation stone that speaks to principles, a vision and a strategy. It is for each regional assembly to come up with regional spatial and economic strategies which will be the next tier and from that will flow the county, city and local area plans. That is how we make sure that the vision is consistent throughout the country in terms of what we want to achieve and so it does need to have local government on board.

In terms of the timelines, we will adopt the plan this year and next year we will have the regional spatial and economic strategies. Those strategies will have a 12 year time horizon. As new county and city development plans are developed, they will work off the back of the regional spatial and economic strategies to a six year time horizon. It is very important, as we look to 2040 and what Ireland could and should look like, that we are not doing it based on what we understand the world to be today. There is no point in arriving at 2040 in an Ireland that was very well designed for 2020 or 2021. When we look to the potential and the opportunity, particularly for areas outside of our five main cities, we must consider automation, remote working, drone technology, driverless car technology, artificial intelligence and so forth. There are huge opportunities in changes to work practices and in new technologies to actually regenerate and revitalise large parts of our country that have been in decline for too long now. We need to make sure that we have that vision as part of the plan when we look ahead.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials here today. I am afraid I cannot be as glowing in my comments as my colleague, Senator Boyhan. It is a very fine production with nice photographs. However, from my point of view and specifically in the context of Drogheda, my political enemies had smiles on their faces when they read this document and indeed, they have attacked it in the press. Some of the issues raised cause me concern.

In an effort to be constructive, I would say that the last spatial strategy was a joke. It did not work and was a disaster in terms of development all over the country. I welcome this attempt to have proper spatial and regional planning. The first issue I have is with the absence of maps. I would like to see maps because they go to the heart of what I want to say. I live in a place called Drogheda which is bounded on the south by County Meath. There is a huge amount of development in Drogheda and it is the core town, if not city, for a lot of activity including shopping, education, transport and so forth. It is a huge hub for everybody but it is not even mentioned as a town in the plan. The Department maintains that the plan is dealing with the cities. However, the population of Drogheda is in excess of 43,000 based on the historic boundaries used by the Department and we believe that the real population is of city size. Even at this moment in time Drogheda is larger than Galway city was when it was designated as a city. The key issue for us in Drogheda is that we are not considered to be a city but we ought to be. We have all of the infrastructural needs of a city but do not even have a proper town council. I know the Minister is addressing that and it has nothing to do with the current Administration, whatever about the last one.

We need to have greater clarity about what is happening in places like Drogheda. Some of Drogheda falls within the north west region, while the southern part of it falls within the Greater Dublin Area, GDA. The GDA runs to the river Boyne so theoretically one half of our town is in the GDA while the other half is not. Drogheda needs special status within this planning process. I have had a quick word with the Minister and I understand that the process is fixed in terms of time. It is important that the Department would look at this again. I know that submissions can be made up until 3 November. I ask that the Department think again about the future of Drogheda and east Meath, which are separate political entities in terms of local government. There is a lack of adequate and proper planning for future development. I do not expect the Minister to give me an answer on this today but we will make strong submissions on this issue.

I welcome the part of the plan which refers to the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor, which is hugely important. It is also important that we are thinking in North-South terms as well about the 26 counties. I also note and welcome the references to developing the critical mass of the Newry, Dundalk area to compete with other larger cities. However, I would like Drogheda to be included in that, either as a linear city with Dundalk and Newry or, alternatively, within a redefined GDA. We must look at the relationship between Drogheda, east Meath and Balbriggan, for example. We need to think outside the box for that area because the development of Dublin has led to phenomenal growth in Drogheda. It is now the largest town in Ireland and needs to be looked at in its totality in the context of the final stage of this plan. I do not expect the Minister to give me answers today but wish to make him aware of those problems. I also ask that his officials would take these issues on board.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O'Dowd. The Deputy referred to the national spatial strategy that we had in previous times as a joke and I can only agree. That strategy did not have any alignment with national spending priorities and was thus undermined from the outset because the money was not being directed to the areas that were meant to be developed.

It was not a good plan, unfortunately. Politics got involved in what was good planning, and the political priorities led to the designation of parts of the country as hubs and gateways which probably should not have been designated as such. There was no joined-up thinking and it was not coherent as a planning document.

It also fell foul of decentralisation. This was a silo decision taken by a Government which had no regard to the spatial strategy that had come before it. With the national planning framework we are trying to ensure we have a system where the possibility of making those mistakes again is eliminated. One of the key differences is that the national planning framework is going to become law. There will now be a planning regulator, which we have never had before. The Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy English, is taking that legislation through Report Stage at the moment on behalf of the Department. It is going to be aligned with the national investment plan for the next ten years. It is also being aligned across departmental priorities, so that when different Departments look to the future of, for example, a city such as Waterford, they understand what the plans are for the north quays, where a bridge is to be built. The north quays, which is now almost entirely in public ownership, need to be redeveloped. That kind of joined-up thinking did not exist before. This plan should be seen as a foundation or bedrock for everything to come. The national spatial strategy was never seen as the bedrock for any other type of planning.

A number of other things are not mentioned. The cities are mentioned, but they make up only 50% of this plan. We want to see the population grow in cities, but they are also important in terms of how we want people to live. This is not a plan about cities. The cities are named because they are where 50% of the growth is going to be. Other places are not named in the plan because we are not going to try to dictate to other parts of the country what their priorities should be in this document. That is why the regional spatial and economic strategies are the next very important layer in terms of planning in the three regions and where development will grow. Aligned with that is a smart growth fund. A region can nominate or designate a particular part to compete for additional funding to ensure that it can achieve the ambition that the region has for that area. That is another important part of the plan that makes it different from the national spatial strategy.

The plan is not finalised. It is going out for final public consultation at the moment, which will continue until 3 November. This engagement is crucial, and it is not just the engagement that we will have in public session today but also the engagements that members of this committee will have privately and the recommendations on the report that they will finalise. A key part of this plan is the input from the Oireachtas, and we will listen to it very closely. Remembering that we think North-South in the economic corridor, it is crucially important that we keep that in mind as we think about the potential future growth of the country up until 2040.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I want to come back to the question that I asked about Drogheda. Two towns are designated in this plan, which are Newry and Dundalk, one of which is in the northern administration. Dundalk is in my county, and I have no issue with that. However, Drogheda, which is bigger than Dundalk, is not mentioned in that context. This Oireachtas committee could recommend that this plan would incorporate Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda as linear cities. How do we make sure that this happens? I accept the points that the Minister is making.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There is nothing in this plan that prevents Drogheda from becoming a city, but the point is that the national planning framework is not going to dictate to any part of the country what is going to happen in that part over the next 20 years.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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My point is that it is mentioning smaller towns. I do not want to get into a fundamental disagreement. I want to get Drogheda included on page 103. How can I do that?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about cross-Border co-operation in that particular part of the plan.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is on the Belfast-Dublin economic corridor. Is it possible to do that?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This committee can recommend whatever it wishes to for the final consideration of the plan. That plan will then be put in place by the Department and the Government. We intend to make the final decision by the end of the year. It will be a matter for the committee to decide what it actually wants to recommend. If it chooses to name additional areas that are not named in the document or if it chooses to make other submissions, then of course we will take those on board.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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How does one change this plan? The Minister has said that it is open for submissions until 3 November, and I accept that. Whether the submissions are from this committee, from any of the bodies who comment or from individuals, can the plan be changed?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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This is a draft document. It is not finalised.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That is the point.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I thank the Chair. I have some questions on public transport, and will focus on that because I have limited time.

There were some very interesting facts in the Minister's presentation. Half the daytime population of Ireland's three largest cities travel from outside the cities. In 2016, 230,000 people commuted for at least one hour a day each way, which is a 30% increase in long commutes in just five years. I picked up a newspaper recently and read an article which said that there are only eight other countries in the world where one is likely to be spending longer per week backed up in traffic. Ireland is ninth in the world for gridlock. In the average European city public transport can get 80% of the people travelling to work in the city into the city each morning. Even if all of our public transport services were working at 100% capacity, the figure for Dublin is 50%. We lag way behind. Conor Faughnan said that in the long run, the only way to resolve this is through serious investment in public transport. He is 100% correct.

I am going to make the case for public transport even more strongly and talk about climate change. The Minister's speech and the document highlight the issue. They contrast with the actions of Government representatives in Luxembourg during the week when the 2030 targets were being discussed. They, along with eastern European governments, sought that the targets be set on the minimal side of the 2013 climate change and carbon emission targets. It is an open secret that the Government and the State are going to fall way short of meeting the 2020 targets, that fines are going to be levied on the State as a result of that - probably in excess of €500 million - and that on current trends we stand to be fined billions for falling short on the 2030 targets. There is much work to be done. I say that in the week we were hit by a hurricane.

Who are the main offenders in terms of carbon emissions? Agriculture is number one. Number two is transport. This strengthens the case for public transport. We can fill the country with electric cars, but there is no substitute for investment in public transport as a way of cutting down on carbon emissions from the transport sector. Where do things stand there, and what is to be done? Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann all currently receive less State funding than they did in 2008. The cuts that were made during the austerity years have been partially reversed, but even at this stage, four years after the turn in the economy, they have not been fully reversed. Those cuts should be completely reversed. There is a powerful argument to be made, from the point of view of gridlock and climate change, to double the invest in public transportation and investment in those three companies. There is also a powerful argument for a cheap fares policy to be introduced. In 1981 the Greater London Council slashed fares on public transport, including the London Underground, by 30%. There was a big increase in public transportation usage. London Transport said that the benefits outweighed the costs on a two to one basis.

The Government and the Department may say the State cannot afford investment on that scale. I would argue, however, that the State cannot afford not to have investment on that scale. One only has to consider the looming carbon emission fines of billions of euro coming down the tracks.

The document is aspirational and woolly on these issues. Will the Minister give more concrete proposals as to how we can reverse the trend of cuts in public transport and seriously invest in it as a key part of a national planning framework?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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As we look out to 2040 and the changes occurring in our economies and practices, it may just be that capitalism might help Deputy Barry achieve his socialist dream. Through the shared economy, it may well be that private property will be a thing of the past in 20 years and everything will be in co-ownership or public ownership.

What we know today is that business as usual is not working. If we continue to develop as we have, it will not work for any of us in the future. That is why in this document we set out a vision for a different approach to spatial development than we have had in the past. I spoke about this recently at a conference with planners about changing the way we think about growth in cities. Rather than sprawling out, we need to consider concentrating our growth in urban cores. That applies to villages, towns and city centres. One of the driving principles behind this plan is that at least 40% of development over the next 20 years will happen in existing physical built-up areas in infill sites and in infill development.

Deputy Barry gave statistics about gridlock. When it comes to human development or democracy, Ireland is one of the top ten countries in the world. However, we fall right down when it comes to liveable areas and cities for those very reasons. We can achieve a significant amount in climate mitigation, in increasing investment in public transport and in protecting our communities, if we focus our growth where infrastructure and people already are. That is a big part of the principle behind this plan. Part of the vision is to focus on infill development, focus on existing landbanks which are not used properly and take advantage of the existing investments made there from a social and economic point of view. For example, 25% of growth over the next 20 years will happen in Dublin. Half of that, however, will have to happen within the M50. That means investment put into infrastructure there can be capitalised upon.

Take the Naas Road, for example, where one already has the M50, the canal and the Luas. There are huge pieces of land on the Naas Road, however, which are essentially just used for selling either furniture, trucks or cars. That is not an efficient use of land right in the city centre of the capital.

Part of the vision from this is to use new co-operative measures between local authorities and the new sustainable growth fund to make sure we can redevelop those parts of the city. Not only will we find efficiencies and savings for the economy, but when we talk about building and protecting communities, it will mean fewer journey times, less use of cars, more use of public transport, healthier living, less demand on our public health services, as well as greater ability to plan for the growth of schools. This will lead to significant benefits for our people, as well as for our environment. The key principle of compact growth which runs through the document is important not just for climate change but ensuring we have efficient public transport.

We have to think about 2040. I agree we will only get there in steps. We will put in place the national planning framework up to 2040 now. Next year, the regions will develop the regional spatial and economic strategies for the next 12 years. After that, every city and county council will row in with its six-year development plan and every local area plan from that again. That is how we are going to get where we need to be in 2040. There is a cross-departmental approach. When we have discussed the national planning framework for the past three years, it has been with every Department. When we had the Cabinet away day in July, half of it was given over to the national planning framework where every Department and Minister gave their input as to how it aligned with their own vision and what they wanted to achieve. There is that joined-up thinking, which means we can obviously deliver greater public transport efficiency, greater bang for the taxpayer's buck and, in doing so, make great gains with climate mitigation and the other challenges we have.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I did ask the Minister to comment on the case that I outlined for a massive increase in investment in public transport.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do not disagree that we should be investing in public transport at all. The point I made at the outset of my comments was that actually we are moving towards more public transport and more co-ownership of how we get around. This is where the economy is going in the future. These are the changes happening. I do not believe anybody would disagree with more investment in public transport. That is what we were doing and have done every year since-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I am talking about a massive qualitative increase in public transport spending to get to grips with gridlock and climate change issues. Throwing a few crumbs at public transport, which has been the case for the past several years, is not what I am talking about.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The point I made was that we will also get to grips with our gridlock and our climate challenges by actually focusing greater development in the areas already developed, like in our city, town and village cores. That is a big part of the vision in this plan.

I apologise but I must attend a Cabinet meeting. The Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, will continue in the meeting.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his attendance this morning and I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English.

Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I think the two Ministers for attending the committee this morning.

Those of us involved in local authorities in the past have been through regional, spatial, county and local area plans. In fairness, we have all lost any faith or hope in them that they would deliver. The public are beginning to not engage in them anymore because they are tired of public meetings about plans which do not deliver anything to them directly in the long term. The national planning framework is a high-level aspirational plan with no specifics. The Minister claimed he is aligning the national investment plan with it. However, without the specifics, it is hard to align it if one does not know where the shortfalls in critical infrastructure are. For example, the Wicklow county plan gave Arklow and other places population growths of 15,000 but they have no wastewater or water infrastructure in place. How can we align an investment plan without knowing the detail required and the weaknesses that exist?

There is a huge drive towards knowledge-based industries. With the housing crisis, we have identified a significant skills shortage in trades. We need to refocus on that part of the education system.

I spoke to Mr. Niall Cussen on rural areas at the last informal meeting we had. We can keep talking about rural areas and keep on giving out about one-off rural housing. However, if we cannot offer a rural dweller an alternative to live in towns and villages, we are actually wasting our time. Every one of our towns and villages has no capacity and they are not on Irish Water's radar because there is no economic return on them within that famous window of economic return. Where does this plan address the critical infrastructure required to develop our towns and villages?

I will probably be killed for raising the issue of the locals-only rule from Europe and its impact on one-off dwellings and houses in the countryside. This document keeps referring to an economic need to live in the countryside. I also believe there is a social part to that which needs to be acknowledged but it is not in this plan. Wicklow suffers from the impact of urbanisation on the demand for one-off rural housing. A person who genuinely needs to live in a rural area is the same as one who is not under urban influence. Why are we differentiating in that regard? In Wicklow, many people are ruled out for one-off rural housing because they do not have an economic need but might have a social need.

Public transport was mentioned earlier. I left home at 6:30 a.m. to get here for 9 a.m. Even though it is only 45 km away, we have a serious problem in Wicklow, especially on the N11 and the M50. The problem equally relates to job creation. If we can create further jobs in neighbouring counties around Dublin, it could eliminate that blockage.

Will the Minister of State give us an update on the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, and specifically on the objectives of the statutory requirements for spatial and transport planning? We in Fianna Fáil have submitted an amendment that ties the transport issue into planning matters.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I will try to catch up with where we are on most of these issues. Deputy Casey is of course speaking from a County Wicklow perspective. We have had a similar situation in County Meath so I can understand the logic behind his questions. Following on from last night's debate, I believe that the plan we are discussing here provides the answer to most of the Deputy's questions if we can only stick to it. The Deputy is right to say that many people in this country have bought into plans over the years without ever seeing them happen. This is why we need follow-through and why this is a 20 to 25 year plan. All of the State agencies, working groups and Departments have been feeding into this plan over recent years and everybody has been asked to play their part. As we have seen, we get more action and delivery when everybody buys in. We have seen this with the housing plan, the jobs plan and the rural action plan. This is how we are now doing business across Government and it is an approach that works and delivers more. It is also a matter of backing up this plan.

A 20 to 25 year plan like this one cannot provide all the tiny details that we might want it to. It has to set out the overall strategy, the overall vision, and the long-term approach as to where we want to go as a country. We have to get acceptance of and buy-in to this. We will then build out regional, local and even town and village plans. If we do not agree on the overall concept to begin with, however, we cannot put the rest of the plans in place. We will also be looking at this as we develop the ten-year capital strategy in the weeks and months ahead, and our departmental officials will be working together with other Departments to examine the vision in this. The ten-year plan will then of course match up some of the infrastructural requirements and direct our investment.

A question was asked about Irish Water. The section in this plan on rural towns and villages, pages 66, 67 and 68, states that we want to give people the choice of living in a rural area. This means that they have the choice to build in the small town or village servicing that rural area. It does not mean that everybody has to have a one-off house out on the open fields. We have to give people the option of living in the village or town a mile up the road, complete with services and with sites delivered at an affordable price. It is not always possible to service all of the one-off houses. It is true that certain people have to live there out of economic need. Being a rural person myself, I also understand that some people also have a social need to live there and this has to be catered for. It is more important, however, that people have the option to be able to live in the local town or village. This needs direct investment from Irish Water and this is exactly what this plan is about.

I see Ireland 2040 as setting out our business case and our plan for investment. Coming back to Deputy Barry's comments about investing in public infrastructure, we will not get investment in public transport if we do not have a business plan for having more people living in the cities to make investment in public infrastructure more economical and worthwhile. This plan is all about directing and filling up our cities, moving into brownfield sites and putting in the critical mass needed for really top-class public transport. This in turn will make it easier to win investment and to make a business case. I see some people here from Galway. We had a discussion with the local authorities in Galway on the fact that we need to invest hundreds of millions of euro in infrastructure if we really want to make Galway a successful city that can compete internationally in the future. This will also generate an increased population that will use and pay for that infrastructure. This plan is about trying to drive this kind of thinking.

Another member mentioned the skills shortage in education. Much of this plan has been drawn up in consultation with the Department of Education and Skills with particular focus on questions such as where the choice is in education, where we are going with education, and where is the access to education. People in the regions feel that they have suffered over the years because they have not had the same access to education as others. This comes down to the cost of living in the city. Through the national skills strategy and the local skills fora, we have come to recognise that any move to address the shortage in skills and in education has to be at regional and local level. Our local authorities and local enterprise offices, LEOs, have to engage with the education players through the skills fora at a county level. The national skills strategy goes out to 2020 and we have factored into it the need for at least 60,000 new apprenticeships and traineeships. This has been reflected in the recent budget, thankfully, which put increased money into apprenticeships, traineeships, on-the-job training and working with education and training boards and institutes of technology. Given what was going on with the storm, the announcement on Monday of an extra €200 million investment for the IT sector and infrastructure may have been missed. This recognises the role played by the ITs in servicing the regions.

This comes back again to driving an economic purpose for all towns, villages and counties outside of the cities. We are very conscious of the fact that we will only drive this economic purpose if we have the education to match. The question is absolutely on the ball. We need to match our skills around the country, and this is what we are doing though the national skills strategy. This, again, is a long-term strategy that needs to be both followed and backed up. This is exactly what the Government has been doing and announcing the money for that recently. We need to make sure that we are producing the skills that we need, not just at university level, but at all different levels: apprenticeships, traineeships and on-the-job-training. We have an obsession with universities in this country but they are just one part of the combination. We often hear conversations about certain individuals taking on apprenticeships because they could not go the route of higher education, but this is not the way to talk about this. It is a matter of what is best for the career, not the person. Individuals might be better qualified for certain jobs if they follow the route of on-the-job training. In many cases one may be better off going through an apprenticeship because one will acquire better skills and be left more ready for a job compared with someone else who went straight on to university. We have to change the conversation on this and this particularly applies to parents and grandparents because they direct where their children end up going. We have to refocus our thinking in this regard and that is one of the objective of the national skills strategy. All these various strategies again feed into the Ireland 2040 plan and into the logic of what we are trying to do with it.

In response to a further question, it is certainly envisaged that we try to grow our towns and villages. It is right to say that about 30% to 40% of our population lives in one-off houses in rural Ireland. This is not sustainable. These people do not want to move 20 miles away, however. They want to stay in their communities. Ideally, we will build up towns and villages while at the same time clearly recognising, even under EU law, that there is still a need for some people to live in rural areas. That need is accepted and recognised in this plan. It is stated here in black and white that we will allow for it.

The regional and county development plans running until 2018 will back up the thinking behind Ireland 2040 and ensure follow-through. We have seen good plans in the past, of course, but we have never followed through on them. Under the new planning Bill coming through the Dáil, this plan will now take the form of a statutory document that will have to be renewed every few years. The Dáil has a role in this, as does the joint committee here today. There were no such roles in the previous spatial strategy in 2002. That is nobody's fault, but we have now moved on in our thinking. Ireland 2040 also sees us trying to bring sustainability and environmental measures into the planning process and closer to our thinking. This is what we are trying to achieve with this.

I return to the planning requirement raised by Deputy Casey. As the Deputy knows, the planning Bill is going through the Dáil and it covers the role of the OPR and the transport pillar. We will have the chance to discuss that at this committee in the future. We recognise that there has to be a greater link between transport and infrastructural plans and planning and that is why we are here. Transport will be a key part of the three-year strategy and the ten-year capital plan. We want to connect the cities outside of Dublin together and we also need to invest in transport within Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and so on. If we do not do so, developing these cities will not be sustainable and people will not want to live there. If we only develop the infrastructural links between cities, there is the danger that we fail in our target to develop the cities themselves. There is a need for parallel development here both inside and between these cities.

I think I have covered all of the questions raised.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I have concerns about planning for 2040. As the Taoiseach comments on the front page of the plan, half of the jobs that people will be working in by 2040 may not even exist today. This the reality and there will be major concerns. The Minister of State mentioned education. I am a firm believer that education can open up many doors for people. Whether it is do with apprentices or engineers, many of our engineers have emigrated, and we need to get them, and indeed anyone who has emigrated, back. We have the finest third level education in this country. Representatives from the south east met the IDA recently, and we spoke about university status for the Carlow and Waterford Institutes of Technology. This is crucial. With 700 staff, Carlow IT is one of Carlow's biggest employers. A proper framework needs to be put in place. We have been talking about this for years but we need to make sure that we deliver on it. We talk about rural Ireland. We have put out plans, and that is welcome, and I know 3 November is the deadline for submissions.

The Government must listen to people regarding the rural post offices. It must listen to what these people in our rural communities are saying. These are the lifeblood of our community, and yet there is talk that we are going to close 200 to 300 of them. We need to make sure through this planning framework that we keep rural Ireland and our post offices alive. I firmly believe there should be little tourist facilities there, where one can get information on the local area and tourist attractions, because that is needed. Rural Ireland is forgotten, and I think it is important that that is part of it.

I also mention the health services. As the Minister of State knows, people are living longer, and quality of life is going to be crucial in this plan. However, I often wonder what sort of plan the Government is putting in place. I will give an example. As part of our local health services, we have the Holy Angels day care centre, which has been looking for a new building for 12 years. Five years ago we were told it was a priority. I am still fighting with the relevant Minister. Is the Minister of State putting a plan in place that will prioritise the building that health service needs? There was an announcement in our local newspaper last week about overnight respite care services. Our service has been closed for two years. They are saying it will be ready in another year, or a year and a half. That is unacceptable. Services have been taken away or, like Holy Angels, they have never been built properly or need a new building. How is the Minister of State going to make sure that they are part of this plan? How will he make sure that parts of the country are not denied their fair share, or forgotten about because not enough Ministers come from those places? I feel that Carlow is not getting its fair share.

Another bugbear I have is Government funding. I know that the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, met our CEOs and a few of our directors of services recently on this issue. It is all about local authorities. They and all the different agencies will play a massive part in this planning framework. However, if the Government does not listen to those from the local authorities, then it is not listening to the people. I welcome the Minister of State saying he is going to listen to the people. However, when local authority representatives say to him that their budgetary needs are not being met and they are told to meet their targets anyway, it just can not happen. If he does not listen to the local authorities and the others making submissions, it will defeat the whole purpose of this plan.

As the Minister of State is aware, we recently had a revaluation of properties and the rates for many properties went up. Although I know some did go down, this is a massive concern. These are all issues that are not being addressed. If they are not in this plan, and I cannot see them in it, the plan is not going to work. There is also the issue of property tax. There are certain areas in the country that will make a lot of money in local and property taxes, and there are other areas, like Carlow, that just are not making the same income. The Government needs to address this. I was a member of the local authority for 18 years, and I would see these issues. Infrastructure needs to be developed. There are train stations where there is no wheelchair accessibility. There are also staffing issues in most local authorities. These are issues that can be sorted, but if we do not start from the ground up, then this whole plan will be compromised, and I firmly believe that.

I will give an example. Health services have been mentioned. We have one ambulance service at night-time in Carlow, which has two staff. We have the ambulances, but we are short two staff. We need two ambulances out at night-time. If I go to the HSE about this, I am told they will look at it and come back. These are the everyday things that the Government is not addressing, and I cannot understand that. When a programme in place, we need to address the simple things. I firmly believe accountability and responsibility are the two main things here. If we cannot get accountability and responsibility, this plan for 2040 is not going to work.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has gone a minute over.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I am finished now. There are great initiatives in this and there are great plans. However, we should start with local authorities and local people who are on the ground. If we listen to them, this can be delivered on. I am sure the Minister of State will, but I have given examples of what I believe needs to be done.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Senator raised a range of issues, and while this is a chance to raise them, this is not the budget. Nonetheless, it is a document that will help us shape budgets, and that is what this is about. The Senator is right. We have not always planned, not just for land use management, but for activities or investment. We have seen this take effect in Wicklow, Meath, Kildare, Louth and the greater Dublin region, where people sometimes moved to the area in an unplanned or haphazard way, sometimes as a result of bad zoning. People ended up living there with no services and it took years for the resources to catch up. That is what we are trying to avoid here. If we can plan our land use, we can plan the management of people, their movement, where they are going to live, whether it is going to be in Wicklow, Cavan, Mayo or Cork, why they would be there, and so on. We can then plan the resources to match that.

The Senator mentioned post offices. Part of the reason post offices are closing is that people are not using them. We have to call a spade a spade here. If they were being used more, they would not be closing. We need to find ways to guarantee their usage. That means building villages, towns and cities back up in order that people have an economic reason to be there. They will then use the local services, which will help save health services, post offices, shops, and so on. People point to a town or village and say that years ago it had seven or eight shops. That is because more people were there and had a reason to be there. What we are trying to do with Ireland 2040 is plan in order that people have a reason to live in a certain place and do not spend an hour and a half driving to work. The target is that the majority would have a maximum commute of 30 minutes, and we want to go better than that. Even that is too high. Senator Murnane O'Connor comes from Carlow and I come from County Meath, so I know what it is like to spend two hours in traffic in the morning. That is not a way to live, and we are trying to avoid it by having this plan. However, that will only be achieved that if we set out ambitions for the country over the next 20 to 25 years and then get buy-in from all the State players and local authorities.

We have consulted. We have been at this stage now for two or three years. We have had at least 12 months of formal consultation with anybody who wanted to talk to us about this. We went around the country, including to Carlow, speaking to people of all ages to hear their thoughts about their towns, villages, cities and country. We are trying to join that together and put in place a number of objectives which will be teased down to regional and local level. We have to follow through. We will not be able to target investment, however, without a plan like this with long-term thinking and long-term sustainable goals. Then we win the resources.

I cannot stress this enough. I was involved in the science strategy, Innovation 2020, and the skills strategy. The reason we put strategies in place is to win the money to back them up. People do not always see that connection because we have not always followed through. It is not just because of this Government, or the Government before it , but in general the thinking in this country has moved on. There is a new emphasis throughout all Departments on joined-up thinking, working together department to department and long-term strategies that we stick to. Governments will come and go, so we have to put in place long-term plans. That is the reason that this document reflects the desire that there be cross-party involvement in this in order that there is that long-term agreement on where we are going as a country.

It was mentioned that people do not see the effects of different plans. I often cite Westport as the best example. Westport was a plan over 15 or 20 years that invested more than €150 million into that area. We see the success of it. It did not take a week, however. It took place over 20 years and involved long-term thinking and decision-making that included everybody. It was led by the local authority and driven by local enterprise, with everyone coming together and playing their part. Success will not be achieved in any of these towns and villages unless all the agencies step up and play their part, including the Department of Health and the Department of Education and Skills, under the overview of the working groups. A key part of this is urban regeneration and renewal, going back into these towns and villages where there are brownfield sites and empty spaces that are not utilised. It is a case of having a conversation with all the State agencies, including the Department of Health, asking them what they need in the future, whether they will want the buildings that are available, and what services they want to plan for each town and village, following which we can allow for it in our building usage and our land usage.

Development plans need to go into that level of detail, actually going street by street and asking what is needed. McAuley Place in Naas is a perfect example. It is an old convent that has been reutilised to provide an option for elderly people to come and live in the centre of a town. It is perfect for an older person who does not want to live on his or her own in a rural house, or a large house at the edge of a town or estate, but wants to be near company and services. Living at McAuley Place, elderly people can walk the streets, avail of all the services and engage with the community. It is a perfect example of this thinking, cited in the published strategy, and there are other centres working just as well. That is the kind of thinking we have. The question is how to achieve that in all the towns and villages. It has to be put down on paper or we will not get there.

Carlow Institute of Technology and Waterford Institute of Technology were mentioned. It is a pity that communications broke down between those two ITs in recent years. Had it not happened, we would probably be further on in our development of a technical university in that area. In this plan, however, we recognise the desire to see technical universities rolled out. The passage of legislation through the Dáil that will give options to ITs in Carlow, Waterford, Athlone, Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Dublin to come together is being prioritised at the moment.

There is a logic to that. We recognise the necessity of developing our skills and talent. The Senator is absolutely right. Job creation and winning investment come down to talent. It is not down to having a Minister or Minister of State. We might like to claim that is the case but it is not the way it works. It is about investing in talent and having access to that talent. That is why the greater Dublin region might win more jobs in some cases at the moment. There are nearly 2 million people living in the area, so investors have access to people with the education they need. If we had proper regional development, those skills would be available throughout the country. There would be access to those skills so investment could also be dispersed around the country. As I said last night, more than 70% of the jobs created in the past year were created outside of Dublin. They are in the regions. All those regional action plans for jobs, which people sniffed at while sitting in here three or four years ago, are working and are delivering jobs to all the regions. That is the key. I have no doubt that with the same logic and long-term thinking, this plan can deliver the same success to our regions. That is what we are trying to achieve and we will do that. The Senator is right, however. It is about the skills.

When the Taoiseach says that half the jobs which will be created do not exist today, he is right. In the past five years, more than half the jobs created have been in new companies with new ideas and new thinking and providing new products and services. That is why we must drive on with our thinking, our innovation, our science and our research and development. As a country, we invest a lot of taxpayers' money in thinking ahead because if we do not innovate, we will fall behind and lose jobs. If we are constantly innovating and driving ahead, we will secure jobs for the future. We are also making sure that we upskill our people to fill the jobs of the future. There is a fear of innovation in most countries because it can cost jobs, and it will cost jobs if we are not on top of it, with it and driving it. As a country we are in the space of long-term thinking. I do not have a fear for jobs because, providing we continually invest in our people and talent, we will also be okay on that front.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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I thank the Minister of State very much for his responses thus far. With regard to his comments on innovation and losing people, as a nation we should have ambition and should not be fed by fear. We should be fed by opportunity. I would like to start with my reaction to the draft plan as it stands. In terms of our climate obligations. we are an island nation, we have an abundance of wind and waves and we have solar potential. We are not giving enough attention to our potential to secure our country in terms of energy. We have the potential and we have to write what we are going to do to secure our energy into the plan. It must be in there hard and fast and with a timeline. We must stop importing fossil fuels. We need timelines. I want to see timelines. I want to know when I will be able to say to my children that the day of fossil fuels is over in Ireland because, in 2040, we will be energy secure because we will have wind energy, solar energy, wave energy and all the innovation which the Minister of State has spoken about. We can do it but we have to have the ambition and we have to lay down timelines as to when we will deliver this. I would like to see that written into our plan so that not just ourselves, the middle-aged, but also the youth will look at this plan and get excited because they will see job opportunities, they will see where their money, as taxpayers, will go, and they will see that this plan will lead to a country which is energy secure.

We talked about transport earlier. I, too, believe that we, as a country, should be investing - hard, fast and fully - in public transport systems. There should be public transport systems which roll out from my home town, Tramore, into Waterford and then allow people to transfer onto a train or bus up to Dublin. The current system does not demonstrate joined-up thinking. If one jumps on a bus from Galway after university on a Friday, when one arrives in Limerick one will have missed the bus to Waterford by five minutes. We are not thinking strategically about how we operate our transport systems. We need our systems to link up as they do in countries such as the Netherlands. We need good, efficient, effective systems which are joined up all the way from a city, to the towns and onto the villages. We need much more integrated transport systems which will deliver public service to people and communities in the towns, the cities and the capital. It must be price effective. At the moment a bus journey for a student costs too much. We have to look at how we can achieve efficiencies of scale in terms of getting more people onto the transport systems while making such systems affordable? We need to serve not only the people who have jobs but also the people who want to travel but are curbed by the cost. We need to bring down costs for the users of the public transport systems.

On housing, we must be much more ambitious in respect of retrofitting. I know the Minister of State was working with the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, on these issues some time ago. We need to be much more ambitious in rolling out solar power to all houses. We must retrofit houses in order that they are warm and people on low incomes are not suffering from fuel poverty as we come into the winter. We must ensure that they have multiple means of warming their houses, such as through solar power or other renewable energy sources. This is all about innovation and creating jobs. We must ensure that every house, hub or whatever kind of housing we build for the people and for families is absolutely 100% energy rated and that we deliver the best for the people. On renovation and such issues, it is all about innovation. The more we scale up and the more we develop, the better the design systems will become.

That also goes for wind energy. I believe that in 2040 we will not be seeing the kind of wind turbines we see today. It will be a totally new model. There will be little wind turbines on the edges of buildings and there will be solar windows. It is all there and it is happening, but Ireland needs to jump on board the renewable energy revolution and we are not doing so. We are still stuck looking into the documents rather than looking out at the world and pulling the systems in. The environment includes the issue of healthy air. We need to have good, healthy, quality air. We need to make sure that the environment is wrapped into everything we do and wrapped into the economy.

I must talk about Waterford for one second. I am delighted to see that it was mentioned twice in the Minister of State's presentation. It is the oldest city in Ireland. We need a south-eastern technical university, as the Minister of State says, but Limerick Institute of Technology could be included as part of the university of the south east. University Hospital Waterford also needs 24-7 cardiac care and we need better services in that hospital to serve the whole of the south east.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I remind the Minister of State that we are trying to keep to five minutes a speaker.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I will try to speak slowly but speak less, if that helps. If the Chair allows, I may call on some of my colleagues to contribute as I am not an expert in all of these areas. I will bring them in if that is okay. I believe it is a good way to do business.

The Senator is right, this is about ambition. That is what we are trying to set out here. What is our ambition for this country? Do we believe in it and can we achieve it? This ambition must be marked out in different plans and there must be connectivity in Government. The regions must also be connected. That is what we are trying to do in this framework. I agree with the Senator about being fed by opportunity. When it comes to climate change, this is about trying to bring climate change initiatives, environmental issues and sustainability more into planning and bringing integrated climate consideration into the statutory plans and the guidelines. This planning document will reflect, and takes on board, the national climate mitigation plan on which the Minister, Deputy Naughten, is leading. It is part of the thinking here and part of our strategy. The Minister is also developing a national clean air strategy which will feed into this. This plan is also about bringing some of the strategies together and setting out those targets and ambitions.

I agree with the Senator about our housing stock. We need to be more ambitious in adapting and enhancing the houses we have at the moment. We have made great inroads with the social housing stock. There will be catch-up with some of the private housing stock.

The building guidelines and regulations reflect where we are trying to go in the future. This is the case with the plans for domestic houses which are to be near zero energy buildings, NZEB, by 2020 or 2018. We are making progress but I agree we need to push that further. We also had the competition recently for using technology for old people and accommodation. The Senator is correct that technology is changing so quickly that things will change in the distribution of energy as well as its creation, such as wind and wave. Everything in this area is adapting quickly. Scientists in this country are at the forefront of developing these technologies which we hope can be brought to market very soon.

Irish people need to buy into believing in science, understanding it and agreeing with it. This week people have been complementing the work of Met Éireann but that was the application of science. We believed the science and we trusted Met Éireann. Through our different plans, we will move with technology and people need to understand that as a country, we rely on evidence-based decision making. It involves research, and the scientists bringing their expertise together. We need to build trust in the system back up and belief that we know what we are doing. That is something that the Senator understands more than others. We need to build around energy development and energy solutions as much as we can.

The Oireachtas often debates the situation in rural areas. They have much to contribute to energy solutions. Many years ago I spent time in a place where I saw a great deal of local energy production and it was more acceptable to the community there. That is allowed for in this plan. We are often obsessed with big energy production which causes a lot of hassle but we must look at all the different types out there and embrace them as best we can.

Many members have mentioned investment in transport systems. We must create a critical mass of people in order to make transport more affordable. One wants to invest in it and make it more affordable and that can only happen where there are cities where the population has been increased. The target is that over half of the population increase in the next 20 or 25 years will happen within the cities rather than outside them, which would continue the urban sprawl. If we achieve that we can invest more in public transport, because it will be more affordable to do so and it will be more sustainable. It will also contribute to climate, air quality and proper land use. It makes sense. We are trying to do more of that but one thing cannot happen without the other. If people are disbursed all over the place in an unplanned way, one cannot service that population in an economic way. In that case, services will not be up to scratch, it is just not possible. That is what we are trying to do and I think it can be achieved. We are on the right path. The committee has a private meeting after this and there will be further discussion in weeks ahead. The plan can be added to because we are trying to make this more ambitious. We are on the right page. The Senator wants to achieve a step change in some of our approaches and I agree with that. As the country recovers, we should have the resources to do that and make bold decisions.

The Senator is right about joined-up thinking. I remember in my first months as a councillor in 1999, sitting down with the NRA which was planning a great big motorway which was to come through our county. When one would asked about the railway line, it was like referring to a different planet. The NRA would respond it was not its concern.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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That is true.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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If we then asked the NRA if it would be able to talk to somebody whose concern it was and if we could have the same conversation to build the motorway together, perhaps, we would be told that it could not do that, that the thinking pertaining to both areas was different. Those planning the motorway were two or three years ahead in their research than the others were with their railway line and they could not come together. Thankfully, that has all changed. That conversation has been had and we now plan our infrastructure and using resources together, but it was disgraceful that we could not do it ten or 15 years ago. We have moved on. We need this joined-up thinking across the system and across all the Departments, which is what we are trying to do here with Ireland 2040.

Does Mr. Walsh wish to add anything?

Mr. David Walsh:

On the question of whether there are targets in the plan, the chapters identify the broad principles and approach. Chapter 9 includes targets up to 2030 and 2040. On page 138, it refers to the transition to sustainable energy, green energy, strengthening our energy networks, our smart grid and then looks at the sustainable management of water and environmental resources. Equality issues are addressed but this is a framework document and we do not want to repeat things. We want to align ourselves with the national policies which other Ministers are driving and ensuring that there is coherence.

Also on environmental issues, this document has had a strategic environmental assignment, SEA, associated with it. In all the approaches taken we have had to look at alternatives, including the "do nothing" scenarios. The report is out for consultation with this draft. It provides a lot more information on some of the different measures of environmental impact.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Senator Grace O'Sullivan spoke of intercity transport and joining the towns and villages but I want to stress once more that we do the same within the towns and cities in order to make transport easier. If we merely join them together people will move from one to the other. We want to grow and develop jobs within these towns and villages also. That is what we are trying to do.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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Can I get clarification that the SEA document is now available?

Mr. David Walsh:

It is on the Department's website.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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Who conducted the SEA?

Mr. David Walsh:

It was the RPS.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for being here. I agree that this plan is the opportunity of a generation. It is important that we get it right and set out of vision. I welcome the comprehensive consultations that have taken place across the country which must continue until 3 November.

As someone who is from a city, I recognise and agree with the Minister that this is not only about cities but about moving out to the regions. When one looks at the population of Dublin it is 166% greater than it was at the foundation of the State. Compare that to the population of Connaught, which is less than it was in 1926. We need to look at the counter-balance to Dublin and the greater Leinster area. Sometimes when this is discussed, people in the capital can see it as a threat to them but it is not, it is about rebalancing economic development across the country for everyone's benefit.

I looked at the key future growth enablers for Galway, which are very positive. I have a number of comments. I read the submission by Galway chamber, which consulted widely with a large range of stakeholders. Everyone will have heard of Galway's traffic problems and transport issues and the need for an outer city bypass, known as the Galway city ring road although it has had a number of different names over the years. We acknowledge that but it will take around 10 years to come into effect and we need to look at public transport, as is stated in the document, which looks at improving access and sustainable transport links and integration with existing employment areas to the east of the city. It mentions Parkmore. The Minister and his officials are, and the previous Minister, Deputy Simon Coveny had been, very active in trying to tackle the considerable traffic congestion in Galway. Many people who work in the city do not live there, they travel in from places such as east Galway and south Mayo. Park and ride facilities would provide an important solution and ought to be included in this plan as part of the overall solution.

Not everyone wants to bypass the city. We must also look at an integrated public transport system for people going to work. There is NUIG, GMIT and the centre of excellence in the hospital in the city centre, so a two-pronged approach is needed. The Galway chamber report refers to the need for a conference, exhibition and performance centre for Galway. Again, this is not only for the city but for the region, as a cultural centre for business, the arts and culture. It suggests the expansion of Galway harbour, which is not only about accommodating cruise ships and freight but also could make it a business and enterprise district for the region.

Traffic and congestion has been mentioned. Any Member of the Oireachtas could come here and discuss matters of traffic and commuting times. I do not see any reference to high speed trains. Starting with the Galway-Dublin route, this would help to open access to the regions.

I referred to the centre of excellence at Galway University Hospital. It received that designation many years ago and serves not only Galway but people as far away as Donegal all the way down to south Clare and as far east as Athlone, yet it has not received adequate infrastructural investment to support that. Some 200 consultants and medical clinicians have written to the Minister for Health acknowledging that Galway and the west and north west needs a proper new acute hospital. That needs to be included and is part of the Galway chamber's submission. It is about the regions, not about one area or it being a local issue. It is a regional issue and is about planning now. We know this will not happen in the next two or three years but it has to be part of the 2040 plan.

Recently, I met with the presidents of GMIT, Sligo IT and Letterkenny IT.

This is about opening access to education. They raised the issue of the need for a Connacht-Ulster alliance. They would like to see more of an emphasis on that in this plan in terms of developing a technological university. The Minister correctly made reference to developing skill sets and apprenticeships. They are well placed to serve that need.

The plan makes provision for the projections for the over 65 population which is coming down the track. I go back to our centre of excellence, University Hospital Galway, which is not equipped to deal with that in its current infrastructure capacity. It needs to be expanded. We also have Merlin Park, a sister hospital which has a leaking roof and has cancelled all its orthopaedic surgeries. This is a 1950s TB hospital that has never been renovated. All surgeries have been cancelled. This is supposed to be our centre of excellence. With our population increase, we will need these facilities and it needs to be included in the plan.

I thank the Minister. I acknowledge this is the start of the process but it is important that we set out these infrastructure projects that need to be included in the plan.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I will try to shorten my answers. I might bring in Mr. Niall Cussen on the planning and transport around Galway because he is familiar with and is working closely with it, and has been corresponding with the Deputy on it as well. We have visited Galway on this plan as well and we have held local consultation there. We met the local authorities, both city and county. I have not met the chamber of commerce directly but I have read its submission.

We made reference in this plan to the importance of investing in the outer ring-road in Galway. I acknowledge the complications around that from a planning point of view. It has taken a long time merely to plan but we need to push on and achieve that as well. Also, we talk about improving access and the sustainable transport links. There is a very good plan on paper for Galway and if we invested in that plan, it would solve it. It makes the case to win that investment for the city.

We would recognise that Galway city is crucial to the development of the western region. One will grow the surrounding regions if one has a top-class city, like Galway, competing at an international level, which it does for med-tech. It is a major hub for med-tech. That it putting the city on the map but it is also bringing investment into the region and giving people a reason to live close by. That is what we are trying to achieve here. We envisage investment in our cities to grow them and increase their population. There are major housing issues in Galway which we have to work on as well. We must have some real long-term thinking there which we are trying to drive.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton mentioned the hospitals. The Department of Health, under the Minister, Deputy Harris, has commissioned a study looking at the use of its hospitals and their capacity, and recognising that there is a requirement for more beds and more investment in hospitals. It is making those choice as to where the investment will be made. We want to be able to track that and allow for their thinking in this plan. That is why all the agencies are around the table.

It is also about looking 20 to 25 years ahead and seeing where we need hospitals. Of course, Galway is a regional centre, but it is about making choices around what health services are in other towns to support Galway and it comes down to encouraging this regional thinking and support as well. We will do that.

We recognise that in the years ahead there will be over 1.3 million people over 65 living in the country. Those will include some of us here. We must plan for and recognise that, and not only pay lip-service to it but put in place proper long-term planning to give people the choice of where they will be able to access services and of where they want to live, but also to develop life-long communities so that one has a choice to live within the one community. At present, sometimes one's only choice is to move out of one's community if one needs accommodation for an older person. That is not sustainable and it is not what we are trying to achieve. We want to be able to plan for that in this as well. The community support health care needs are all being talked about within the plan but the delivery of that involves bringing the agencies together under this plan through the other local plans as well. We are trying to achieve that.

Mr. Cussen will speak on land use.

Mr. Niall Cussen:

As had been flagged in Deputy Hildegarde Naughton's contribution, some of the issues around Parkmore have been the focus of the Department and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport in terms of working with the local authorities. The recent opening of the new motorway has probably tipped the balance again away from free-flow traffic and more towards congestion, but there have been some positive developments in the last few days in regard to agreement about land transfers and clearing the way for additional capacity in that area. We will get back to the Deputy on that.

I suppose Parkmore in its own way is a great example of where the State agencies, such as IDA Ireland, working with the local authorities, the transport provides, etc., have created a world-class cluster of med-tech and other enterprises that are thriving in the west, in Connacht, providing high-tech employment for over 8,000 people who are drawn from a wide regional catchment, including the city and right through south Roscommon, east Galway, etc. It is a classic example of where the critical mass, the infrastructure, the enterprise and the economic development conditions, the knowledge, the skills, etc., all come together. Even in the western seaboard and more peripheral parts of the country, we can succeed and drive regional growth. There are some short to medium-term issues that have arisen in regard to transportation access and connectivity and from a departmental and cross-departmental point of view, we are absolutely committed to resolving those in the fastest time possible. Of course, the long-term answer is the ring-road.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Hildegarde Naughton also asked about the high-speed rail. The Deputy will have heard a reference in conversation. Both the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, and the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, have repeatedly talked about those options. In our sustainable mobility section, we talk about investing in rail, and that connection, and public transport. That is what we mean there. It is not written in as high-speed rail but that is what we are talking about. It also goes back to having a concentration of people in certain areas to make that viable and worthwhile. That can happen. This country can afford it but only in a planned way. The Deputy is correct to highlight that. Galway is one of those regional centres where if we can grow the city enough, it will make it sustainable to have that option as well.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Connacht-Ulster alliance in the institutes of technology sector included?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is. The reason Galway developed as a med-tech sector of the world is because of that connection between our education system and our enterprise system. I saw that collaboration in my time as Minister of State with responsibility for research. We have done a lot in Galway, both in the university and in GMIT, around that connection and collaboration across all the stakeholders. It has been driven by top-class people in the education system working with enterprise and constantly expanding those companies with new products. Also, the link with the university hospital is key to the development of top-class health services, as well developing services and products that can be used all over the world too. We need to build on that too and we recognise it in the plan as well.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am not a member of the committee but I very much appreciate the chance to speak. As the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, stated, this plan is probably the most important we have in this Dáil. I was hugely supportive of the approach to a national planning framework on the understanding that it was promoting a stopping of the sprawl and a reduction in the long and ever-lengthening commuting distances in this country, that we would genuinely set ourselves on a low-carbon pathway, and that it would evolve in a way that would not be top-down and would encourage bottom-up engagement in the long-term planning process.

I heard some of the speakers earlier. While all the rhetoric is right, the substance is not there. In all three objectives, what I hear and see is all waffle, all spin and no substance, and I will explain why. First, the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, stated the lesson we have to learn from the original national spatial plan is to align what we are actually doing with the plan. I do not see any alignment occurring, for instance, in the transport issue. If the issue is to stop the sprawl, there was nothing in the latest budget supporting that initiative. There is nothing in our transport plans which is about developing public transport and urban sustainable living systems. There was €3 million for cycling - wow - and there is how many billion euro for more roads.

This plan is the same. I looked in detail, asking where is the transport substance. It is all motorways. It is all more ring-roads. It is all about roads. Even in my own constituency, Dublin Bay South, the Minister wants to get another motorway under Dublin Bay connecting to the port. It is another €3 billion or €4 billion added to the jigsaw of the M50, a road network that is broken. It is not working because it is not sustainable.

I am sorry but nothing this Government is doing tells me it is interested in sustainable transport. I looked at it again in the context of my own city. Look at the mess they have made of the city centre with the Luas cross-city. One can no longer cycle around College Green. It is too dangerous given what they have created.

It is not as if they were not told to do it the other way - we were arguing to put urban planning into it and include the pedestrian and the cyclist - but nothing has changed. What has changed in the transport budget? When I look at it, all I see is roads – that is all we are doing. We do not have a single rail-based public transport plan. How is the Department going to reduce sprawl? How is the Department going to cater for all these people coming into the cities? The only plan is more ring roads. That is going to hit the M50 and it is not going to work. That is my first criticism.

My second criticism is that the same problem arises with climate issues. We all talk about decarbonisation, but there was nothing in the budget about it. I listened to the Taoiseach yesterday. He was asked questions after the storm on Monday. He said we were all doing great and that we have all sorts of ambitions. There is no ambition in this Government for climate action. There is no scale of investment. We are going to have electric vehicles but a public relations campaign is the best the Government has in mind - that is not good enough. I could go through every other sector. It is the same in energy, land use and farming. There was nothing on forestry in the budget. If we are serious about climate change, how in God's name could we have a budget that did not mention forestry?

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify something. We are talking about the national planning framework. We are discussing whether it is under-funded by the capital investment plan. We are not talking about the budget recently passed. It is about a plan for Ireland.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If we are serious about this, the budget should have started the process of carrying it out in reality. I am sorry, but I see no ambition from this Government on the climate front.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is well within his rights to say that, but I am simply saying we are focusing on the plan now.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We cannot have plans that refer to how great we are and how we are going to be really good at decarbonisation but actually do nothing about it. That is what is happening.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy keeps speaking over me, then he is not listening to me. I am trying to ask him to stick to the national planning framework and not to go back to the budget. This is about the ambition for Ireland for the next 20 years.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Here is my view on this plan: I do not believe a word in it.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is okay.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The actions of this Government suggest it does not believe a word of it either. It is all just spin and talk. It is not real.

I wish to make a third point about going back to the people and doing it from the bottom up. Where is the bottom up? There are three regional assemblies. If the Department projections are true, my regional assembly will be an assembly of 3 million people. I do not see it working. If we were serious about a bottom-up approach in Dublin, we would say we want a mayor for Dublin. That would enable us to stop planning the chaos that has been created by the lack of proper planning in this city. Instead, we could start thinking about where we put housing.

Similarly, we need to look at the key missing ingredient, which is how to lift our smallest towns. I would look for us to be putting back in district councils. They were taken out by Phil Hogan because it was popular at the time. The view was that politics was back and getting rid of politicians was a good idea. I think that was a fatal mistake. Where is the plan for strengthening regional government that would allow towns to indicate how they believe they are going to meet the objectives of reducing sprawl and cutting out carbon? I do not see any empowerment of the political process. I do not believe that the current regional assembly system is sufficiently robust, strong or relevant. The only area where it is relevant is the national land use plan. There is a plan to divide the country between the north and west and between the south and east. It does not relate to Dublin or the east midlands, but in the area of land use, farming and forestry, perhaps that makes sense. In any case, there is nothing about it in this plan. There is nothing about a national land use plan that might back up a spatial plan.

I am positive and supportive of the idea, but the reason I brought back in the budget is because if we were serious about this we would have seen something in the budget. I see nothing in the budget to back this up and, therefore, I do not believe it is real. That is a valid criticism.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I understand the frustration that Deputy Eamon Ryan is bringing to the table, but he is probably slightly wrong in what he is saying. We had a conversation about this plan but Deputy Ryan was out of the room for most of the discussion we have had thus far.

This plan is about setting out the plan, ambition and business case. If we do not do that, we will not win any investment. It is not a matter for the budget or to change to the political system. It is about setting out where all of us collectively have come together in recent years with the plan. Deputy Ryan bought into that process at an earlier stage. If he believes in it, I appeal to him to stick with it and finish it out, because the plan is not finished yet. Only then will we see the direction in budgets and the direction with resources from the State. The ten-year capital investment plan is not published yet. It will be published in conjunction with this; when this is finished, it will be finished. I appeal to Deputy Ryan to reserve his judgment until that stage.

I understand Deputy Ryan's frustration and I accept all of that because I know he genuinely believes in what we are trying to achieve, but I would not call this waffle. If we do not go through this process, then we cannot achieve what Deputy Ryan wants to achieve. He should bear that in mind. We will have the publication of this and the ten-year plan, hopefully, in December this year. Then we will be able to see what we think of it. This is about trying to win investment in sustainable planning and investment in transport. Such investment might not have been in place in the past at the level Deputy Ryan sought – I understand that. However, this is trying to change the direction. It will not happen in one budget. It will take a number of budgets. That is why this is a 25-year plan to set the course and direction of the country. We have had a conversation with Deputy Ryan's colleagues about trying to re-invest in towns and villages, urban renewal and invest in transport and energy. That is what we are trying to do. It involves a climate mitigation plan as well. It is about bringing it all together to make it happen.

Deputy Ryan referred to the political system making this happen. We all accept that plans in the past were not always followed up. However, I believe Deputy Ryan has seen a demonstration in recent years of how Governments do follow-up on plans and implement then. It does not matter whether we are discussing housing, jobs or rural action plans. At times they are box-ticking exercises, but it is important to go through that. We need to be able to say we have done a specific action and then move to the next one. The idea is to stick to the plan and follow through. We have a proven track record of doing that. I have more belief than Deputy Ryan in the future of this plan. We will see the first step in the weeks ahead.

Deputy Ryan referred to particular issues. I gather he does not disagree with our targets, but he is not hopeful that we will implement them. We can go back to the specific targets if Deputy Ryan wishes and my colleagues may come in at that point.

Deputy Ryan referred to the consultation process. All the regions and local authorities and anyone else interested have had a role in feeding in to this plan. There has been any amount of consultation, and it has happened in a more formal way in the past year. Again, we are not finished. There are some more weeks of consultation – the period runs to 3 November. There is still time for anyone else to have talks. That is why we are here today - we are here to listen. Senator Grace O'Sullivan referred to ambition. We can look at whether we are driving it enough and we can talk about that again.

Deputy Ryan referred to the political system. Again, this plan does not dictate the political system. The Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy John Paul Phelan, is bringing a document to Cabinet shortly around the future of local government, a review of the changes we have made and any recommended changes for the future. I disagree with Deputy Ryan. I believe the municipal areas are working well. I have been a councillor and I have worked in a town where there was a cross-over of local authority boundaries and town council boundaries. It did not always lead to quality or effective decision-making – there were delays. Some town councils have done great work and the involvement of councillors is still needed, but there is duplication. Often, councillors cover different boundaries and as a result we get slower decision making. The system can play parties off against each other and that does not work either. The plan refers to areas where there are boundaries and bringing together integrated plans that cover various council boundaries. That is clever thinking and that is the way it should be done. The political system has to match that.

I disagree with Deputy Ryan's view that the regional and local authorities are not in a position to deal with this – they are. They have been consulted. After this national ambition is put out, we will have regional and local development strategies which will bring on the implementation. I believe the system can work and will work. We will review it, though, because I recognise that some of the municipal areas are large and in some cases it is difficult for councils to cover a great deal of ground. It depends on the location of a council. If a council is in Mayo, it can be difficult. Kerry is a wide area to cover. The councils have a great deal of work to do. We will make changes to that if necessary. However, that does not mean the whole system is wrong. I believe municipal areas can work well too.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I have undertaken an analysis of the budget. The budget is important because what we spend now on infrastructure is what happens in ten, 15 or 20 years time. The next three years is when the tap on infrastructure will be turned on. My reading of the three-year plan is that it is all about roads. That is the only area of transport we are investing in. Transport is important. Transport, land use and housing go together. If we are going to reduce sprawl, how can the Department justify an 80% or 90% spend on roads versus public transport? That is what we are doing. How does that match the strategy? How does it match the strategy if Dublin decides we are going to have to build a port tunnel? Where is the sustainability or the lack of sprawl in that? Page 134 refers to ports and how we have to improve southern port access. That is all IBEC talk about new roads and more roads. How can the Department be serious about the plan if investment in the future on transport is the same as it has been for the past three decades? It is all roads. How do we stop the sprawl if that is the plan?

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister of State answer in the 30 seconds that remain? Please stick to the national planning framework.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ryan is right to say that from budget 2019 onwards there will be an opportunity to invest more money in the future of the country and that we have to get back to a sustainable position. However, we are not going to see the step-change Deputy Ryan requires in one budget – I have made that clear. That is why the ten-year investment strategy will be the backup to this. We will not achieve the investment in public transport and in what Deputy Ryan wants to achieve in one budget.

This thinking will enable all of the Departments to come together with their investment plans for the next ten or 15 years. Our strategy seeks to shape the thinking and then win investment thereafter. That is exactly what we are trying to so. Do my officials wish to comment on any matter?

Mr. Niall Cussen:

No.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The time for this segment is nearly up.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am the last person in this round and then members will ask a couple of minor questions.

I completely appreciate that the document is about the management of land use, the movement of people, and creating opportunities for employment, development and growth in certain parts of the country. The options for the latter will vary depending on the part of the country whether it is tourism, heritage, culture, foreign direct investments, FDIs, or indigenous businesses.

Just like many members in this room who have been involved in many local area plans and development plans, I completely welcome the NPF plan because it gives us a roadmap and framework for where we are going as a country. The framework means I can plan for my family and for my children's futures. The plan will create opportunity and choice for them, which was not available before even in my time. I do not think the plan is waffle or spin. I think it is quite an ambitious plan. I presume it will be a moveable document over the next five, ten and 20 years. For the first time ever we will have a statutory document that all Departments will have to work towards when we invest in the country as a whole, and when we are re-balancing and not being Dublin-centric. I should be Dublin-centric because that is one of my constituents. However, I recognise that for the country to grow and be sustainable the country must be viewed in its entirety and not just Dublin as the capital.

I fully welcome this ambitious document and its bottom-up approach. Many of us in this room have attended numerous pubic consultation meetings throughout the process. As individual public representatives, we have all been given assistance. We have had ample opportunity to contribute to the plan and the final date for submissions is 3 November. I welcome how the public has been included like never before in the formulation of this national planning framework plan. It is important that we recognise such inclusivity.

The Minister does not have any questions to answer because I only commented on the plan. I thank him for the engagement that his Department is having with the committee here this morning on this matter. Members will now ask a couple of questions and I call on the Senator Murnane O'Connor to commence.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Chairman that a planning framework is crucial. The Minister is correct that everything is based on budgets and getting as much money as one can into one's local authority, tourism and all of the different areas. Under this plan, I want the weaker counties in rural Ireland to get their fair share of development and not be forgotten.

The Minister when he outlined the programme said that there are five key messages, which I welcome. I have read them all but I have queries about two of them. He has said that the Government will legislate for an independent office for planning regulation. What is the timescale for this? He has also said that there will be a new national ten-year investment plan called smart growth. A few people have asked me about the plan. Can he clarify the matter?

In 2040, we will undertake to consider the merits of developing new structures such as a national land development agency to work with local authorities, which is crucial. I ask the Minister to clarify the few points that I have made because these are probably the key messages for every rural community and county in Ireland. We need a framework plan but we must ensure areas like Carlow are not forgotten. I would hate if the Minister of State forgot Carlow when he left this room.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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One could not possibly forget Carlow.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody else wish to comment in the last round of questions?

Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Murnane O'Connor did not mention the housing assistance payment, HAP, today.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I did not mention HAP today.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Will I answer the first round of questions?

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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No. We will take the last quick fire round of questions.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I wish to comment on the point made about a bottom-up approach. I accept and acknowledge that we have a plan that will reform local government administrations. I do not personally agree that the district councils are working well. In Drogheda they do not work at all because we do not have a town mayor or town council. We do not have officials who are responsible for decisions in the town because all of the decisions are made in Dundalk. It is a joke in terms of local control and accountability, which is regrettable because Drogheda is the largest town in Ireland.

I welcome the plans to change local government that the Department will bring forward. The plan must work side by side with the new strategic development plan and, therefore, we should have joint documents. I agree that one without the other does not make sense and one should not leave the other. We must have proper accountability and growth. Senator Murnane O'Connor is right about Carlow and there are similar places. I also agree that we must have joined-up thinking.

I agree with the comments on transport made by Deputy Eamon Ryan. I welcome the plan but it is a work in progress. I hope that the Minister will rethink excluding towns like Drogheda, which is the largest town in Ireland, from the list of towns mentioned in the report. Due recognition of Drogheda is hugely important to my community. People want a proper council where decisions are made locally by a county manager.

Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to inquire about the level of detail that will be stipulated in the ten-year national investment plan. Will it outline specific projects? Will it only be an aspirational plan? Deputy Naughten has raised nearly all of the critical infrastructure needed for the west so I am beginning to wonder if I should have gotten my speak in.

Equally, I wish to comment on the impact that the huge growth of Dublin has had and will have on surrounding counties. Deputy Eamon Ryan mentioned the development of Dublin Port. There are ports outside of Dublin that could be developed. If they were developed they would take pressure off Dublin Port.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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Yes.

Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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As a result the areas would become most sustainable and jobs would be retained and created. Not everything must go into Dublin. There are areas outside of Dublin. There are two or three ports in Wicklow that could be developed.

I would like to know the timeframe for the national planning framework, the regional plans and the county development plans. It would be a step too far for me to include the local area plans. What is the timeframe to get county development plans in line with the national planning framework? When will a complete review take place?

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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The final date for submissions is 3 November. Can the Minister tell us what the process will be from then onwards?

To reiterate what my colleague, Deputy Eamon Ryan, said, he raised the important point that the budget is linked and must be linked to every single thing that we do every day going forward. The current budget for the draft plan is lacking. I ask the Government to consider the weak budget that has been provided for the national planning framework. We need to take an eco-system approach to the whole thing. I agree with the Minister that everything must be interconnected. This year's budget is significant and funding must be rigorously examined in terms of the draft national planning framework and the final plan. I would like him to answer my first query about the timeline for the plan.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for their comments. The Minister of State can have the last word.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I shall work backwards through the questions. The final day for submissions is 3 November. We will spend most of November reviewing all of the submissions. We will take on board any suggestions and, if necessary, will make changes. We hope to publish the plan in December.

Mr. David Walsh:

Yes.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The lads around me might have a lot more grey hair by then but that is our plan. We will have the regional strategies from that in 2018 and they will be published. Also, local area plans will be adopted by 2019 and we will take account of the strategy in those. The earlier we can align all of our thinking and processes the better success we will have in delivering the strategy.

As will be stated in the planning Bill coming through, the strategy will be reviewed every five years. The strategy will be have a lot of reviews. We will formally track and monitor the strategy every five years. If we want the strategy to work and achieve all of our different ambitions then have ongoing monitoring. Monthly and quarterly monitoring and analysis of progress has led to success in the other action plans that I have been involved in.

Members were correct to say that the budget is important.

The recent budget was limited in what it could achieve in terms of the capacity it had, but there is far more potential in the years ahead. However, as I have learned in politics and in the last few years as a Minister of State in different Departments, if one does not put forward one's argument and the case for investment no budget can save one on the day. This is about doing one's homework. If one wishes to target investment in a certain direction, and all of us buy into that here, one must make one's plan and put forward the logic behind it. It is the business case. I urge people to see these plans as the business cases to win investment and to drive the direction of the country. This plan will have a much stronger influence on budgets in the future because we are setting down and agreeing the ambition and direction of where we are trying to go. That is what we must achieve if all goes well, and there will be scope in future budgets to achieve it.

With regard to not forgetting Carlow, Wicklow or any other place, this plan is about ensuring there is equal opportunity for all the regions and that everybody's voice is heard, not just Senator Murnane O'Connor's whose voice is very strong. Again, one is giving these places a sense of purpose, but there must be an economic reason for locating and living in a certain place. It is not viable for people to continue driving in a car for two hours. If that was the case, we would have been born with wheels, not legs. We are trying to give people the option to live and work in their local area, be it Drogheda, Navan or Carlow. For the information of Deputy O'Dowd, Navan is in a similar situation to Drogheda. This plan does not limit the ambition or the growth plans of any town or village. Drogheda and Navan are two of the largest towns in the country and the Deputy lives in one while I live in the other.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Drogheda is larger and is the one I am interested in.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am just saying this strategy is about making sure-----

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The Minister can look after Navan and I will look after Drogheda.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We have mentioned Carlow, Wicklow, Mayo, Galway, Cork and Waterford. I will not name all of them. The idea of the plan is not to limit ambition but to plan it in a co-ordinated way. There is great potential for towns. The larger towns, in particular, have massive potential to grow in a more sustainable way with more job creation and through winning investment. That is not limited in the plan. It is encouraged in a planned and co-ordinated way. However, the discussion around the political decision making process and whether there are municipal areas or town councils is not a matter for this plan. It is our job in a different format, but not in this strategy. I agree that they are linked-----

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is a key part of implementing this plan.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The decision making on the composition of that is not a matter for this plan. It is key that the decisions on local democracy, democracy in general and the arms of the State buy into, and work with, this process, but the plan will not dictate whether one has a town council, municipal area or the like. That is not its function. There is an ongoing discussion in that regard in our Department as well and the plans on how to proceed will be discussed in this committee, but it is not a matter for today's discussion.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is mentioned.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I am referring to the decision making-----

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I wish to make the point again to the Minister of State. Drogheda is a town of 41,000 people but there is no council or mayor for the town. There is no administrative structure, no county manager and no decision making locally. That is wrong. There might be the same situation in Navan, but I will not accept it. My constituents are saying that we cannot allow that to continue.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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That is fine.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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He is not disagreeing.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I accept the point the Deputy makes. In the debate last night in the House which was started by Deputy Mattie McGrath we discussed this and its importance. In that case I cited my town as different. In my case we have a municipal area that covers the town and it is in a very strong position. That is something I would encourage people to examine, but it is not a matter for today's discussion. It is important that all the local councillors and decision makers are involved in implementing these plans. Its success requires that they buy into it and make it happen.

There were other questions and I am anxious to answer them. Niall Cussen will talk about the smart growth fund. Again, it is about trying to target investment into neglected areas of cities, towns and villages where one can invest cleverly to rejuvenate and re-energise them and bring investment back into them.

On the land development agency, if we are going to achieve what we seek here many of us strongly believe that to be in charge one must be in control of some of the land and certainly have a direct link to it. A land development agency would be key to being able to achieve the ambition here. Local authorities are only in control when they have assets and land and when they have a say about the land. It is too late if one leaves it to somebody else outside the local government decision making process.

Pat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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We could look at some State agencies and their land banks.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is correct. That is the reason for bringing State agencies and Departments around the table. We have not had that joined-up thinking among our agencies over the years but we must have it, in one way or another, or we will not achieve our ambitions here. There is more than one way to skin a cat but we have to find ways to do this joint decision making for the benefit of the country, not just for the benefit of one agency or town over another. We must come together on this and that is what we are trying to achieve here. It comes back to the earlier point that one should set out one's thinking and ambition. It is easier to knock on various people's doors and have the conversation when one has a plan that we all buy into and on which we all agree. That is what we are trying to do here as best we can.

Chairman, I welcome your understanding of and belief in the process and your involvement in it over the last year by bringing your colleagues with you on the journey with the national planning framework, Ireland 2040, around the country and having a consultation. We are trying to get people to buy into this. While there have been more than 800 submissions I would prefer if there had been thousands more. Planning is exactly what you say - it is about looking at our children and their future and where we are going over the next 20 to 25 years. For me, planning is about bringing the future into the present, and that one does something about it. That is what we are trying to do here. We need to build on that and keep doing as much of that as we can.

I believe I have dealt with most of the questions. Niall Cussen might wish to comment further on the smart growth fund and David Walsh could also comment if he wishes to add something.

Mr. Niall Cussen:

Deputy Eamon Ryan asked what was different in this from previous policies. To return to what the Minister and Minister of State have said, particularly around the implications of sprawl and the missed opportunities for developing in our city, town and village cores, it appears to us that there is an opportunity, through land management and prior investment in enabling infrastructure and the public realm, to put in place a mechanism that advantages renewal as opposed to just the continual edge development which we have seen in many urban areas across the country. This is something we will be working on with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the context of the ten year capital plan or the national investment plan. Some of the mechanics have yet to be worked out but we will embark on that process.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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Jobs are crucial.

Mr. Niall Cussen:

The local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, model has very successfully got local authorities, State bodies and housing providers working together to boost housing output in strategic locations. However, it is housing focused. One could see the smart initiative as being more broadly based with regard to economic, community and social development as well, although obviously having the focus on the built environment and the proper planning outcome. We will be developing that with our colleagues in the Departments in the months ahead.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Casey also asked about the national investment plan and whether the decision on that would be aspirational or detailed. It will be both. However, the final decision will be for the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform so the Deputy can bring his evidence based arguments to them. It will all be evidence-based decision making. The idea of having this plan is to influence their thinking and our Department is part of that conversation. We will not make the final decision because that is for a higher authority but the evidence, ambition and targets in the roadmap for the country marked out here will dictate the thinking there. That is what this is about. If the Deputy can link his desires and concerns into this and show that they match up, that will help the cause.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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One area we did not discuss was the marine and the resources we have as an island community-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The ports are there.

Grace O'Sullivan (Green Party)
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We talked about ports but I am referring to the general capacity we have in that regard. It is something the committee will discuss and feed into our report.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We recognised the importance of that and gave it a chapter of its own, chapter 6. The Senator has read it and I welcome that. I encourage the members to read it and if they wish to add to it they can in the weeks ahead. I agree that there is major potential in the marine. There are particular strategies for that as well. In addition, people need to know that we invest a great deal of taxpayers' money in that sector and its future. There is a large amount of top class research and development work ongoing in that area, which will future-proof the sector and encourage more job creation in the years to come. Again, it will also win investment. Only a small portion of the investment in research and development is by the State, but the State's involvement and its role in making it happen win extra investment from all over the world from people who recognise the talent and potential in the Irish system. That is what we are trying to do.

Deputy Casey referred to the ports. They are mentioned here too. There is great potential to develop other ports outside the cities. We are trying to get that regional balance and to use our assets more wisely.

Maria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank you and the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, who was with us earlier, and Niall, David and Paul for their ongoing interaction with the committee on an informative basis.

We will now go into private session to devise our report on the national planning framework with the benefit of the information we have discussed today.