Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee is now in public session. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as a permanent witness to this committee. I welcome everyone back and trust everyone is alive and well and ready for more work. Apologies have been received from Deputy Josepha Madigan. I understand she will be stepping down from this committee to take up her new post as Chairman of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight. It is up to the Oireachtas to announce her replacement so we will deal with that when it arises.

The first item on the agenda are the minutes for the meetings on 11, 12 and 13 July 2017. These were the last meetings we had before the summer break. Are these minutes agreed? Agreed. The next item concerns matters arising from those minutes. Is there anything in particular arising? I do not think so. The one thing I noticed was that we agreed on the last day, when looking at the accounts presented for an organisation called An Chéim, to hold over its 2016 accounts until the next meeting. We will have to deal with An Chéim when we come to the list of financial statements.

The next item is correspondence. We have a long list of up to 60 items since our last meeting two months ago and this volume of correspondence shows how busy the Committee of Public Accounts is. We will move through it as efficiently and promptly as we can while still giving everything proper consideration. Category A correspondence concerns today's public meeting - there is none for today as we have no witnesses in public session. Category B is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers along with follow-up correspondence and items that we requested. All these items are for publication. The first item in the schedule is No. 705B, dated 14 July 2017, from Claire Byrne, CEO of St. Raphael's Garda Credit Union, in relation to media coverage concerning comments made about the credit union during the committee's examination of the Garda college. The correspondence states that the credit union confirmed to GIAS that it is happy to co-operate fully with the investigation, subject to the receipt of the appropriate lawful authority to release the information requested. There are some items here relating to our work before the summer. They might sound a bit dated but we have to deal with them in public. This item is noted.

The next item is No. 706B, correspondence 1-2, dated 14 July 2017, from Neil McDermott of the Higher Education Authority. This is in response to a request from the committee for information on Dundalk Institute of Technology's long-term contract with a sole supplier for recruiting international students, essentially from Asia and China. The letter sets out the rationale for these arrangements, principally based on the fact that it is a unique service. The HEA also states that it is surveying higher educational institutions in order to gather an understanding of the issues surrounding international student recruitment. It is not particularly unique; I do not see how these services are as unique as we have been told they are and I imagine that there are a number of agencies providing similar services. I propose, however, that we note this item for the moment and ask the HEA to keep us informed of the review it is carrying out. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 707B, received from the Higher Education Authority and dated 14 July 2017. This concerns further information requested by the committee on contracts, following the meeting with third level institutions and the HEA on 22 June. The committee's request was very extensive, namely, a review of all contracts for the last ten years. The HEA has replied that the colleges contacted have stated that this requires a significant volume of work because many of the records involved are archived and some are manual. The letter states that the HEA proposes to request that the institutions report on the engagement and associated costs of all external consultancy firms and consultants appointed to carry out investigations and inquiries into internal matters going back ten years, as well as on the engagement and associated costs of legal firms and the nature of such services going back ten years. The HEA expects that it will facilitate detailed reporting by each institution on expenditure of specific interest to the committee in terms of internal investigations and legal advice. I propose that we reply to the HEA advising that the committee agrees with its proposal and that the information will be reviewed when received. What we are essentially talking about here is where investigations are carried out and outside consultants and legal firms are brought in. The HEA is going to obtain this information and put it out on a formal basis so that we get a report in the future. Is that okay?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The HEA says that it will incorporate this into its annual report. Will it furnish us with the full information in a separate report beforehand? That is what we sought. Things can get lost when they get incorporated into annual reports. We will have a lot to evaluate there when that comes before us. What we sought was a very specific piece of work about consultancy firms carrying out investigations and I do not really see why it would be difficult to get that information. I do not accept that it is as difficult to obtain as the HEA says it is here, but notwithstanding that, I would prefer it if we were to get that information separately. The HEA can by all means incorporate it into its annual report, but I would rather it gave it to us as a separate report. Could that be requested?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

My reading of that is an annual statement required from the chair of the governing body of each third level institution to the HEA about the middle of every year. I think that is what he is speaking about there so they will be-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine as a-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

-----gathering the information as routine from now on.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, that is fine as a change in practice but it does not give us the information we sought. Let us have the information we sought and if, arising from our discussions here, they change their practice and follow what has been suggested, then that is great, but give us the information we asked for.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We need a report on the prior years and then current years will be covered from here on in. We will ask for a specific report on previous years. No. 708B, correspondence 1-4, dated 14 July 2017, is also from the HEA and concerns further information on the combined liabilities of universities and the most commonly procured consultancy firms; the salaries of the presidents of all the third level institutions; and a review of HEA procurement across the third level sector. The review is something that members may be interested in considering further and I suggest that we note it for now. It gives details on all the items we asked for, including the salaries of the heads of all the third level institutions, which are provided on a separate list. Finally, it includes a very comprehensive report produced by Deloitte, reference number 708/3B, and produced on 4 May 2017. This report is very extensive. Nothing in it strikes me, but I think that we have to write to HEA to request a timeline of the implementation of the recommendations contained in the report. It is fine to get the report but we want to make sure that some action is taken. It is reasonable to suggest we do not just put the report on the shelf but ask the HEA to come back to us on this at some point before the end of the year. We will give it a few months for that.

The next item is No. 710B, correspondence dated 17 July 2017, from Ed Silvey, director of credit institution and supervision and acting registrar for credits unions in the Central Bank. The letter concerns St. Raphael's Garda Credit Union and states that, due to confidentiality requirements, it is not possible to provide the information requested by the committee regarding any investigation that may have been carried out into the Garda credit union. However, sets out, in general terms, what the credit union's expectations are and we can note this. It is standard practice for the Central Bank not to get into specific confidential items and I think we can understand that.

The next item, No. 711B, is an extensive letter from the HSE, dated 11 July 2017, concerning further information requested at our meeting on 15 June. The correspondence includes information notes as requested by the committee. Members may wish to study these and return to this. We will be specifically engaging with the HSE in the coming week as a section 38 and section 39 organisation. We had a list of approximately 15 questions, which have all been answered in this documentation to varying degrees. I suggest that members of the committee study them and if anybody wishes to come back on anything, please do. There is a lot of good information here, which we note. I will not read out the 15 questions again.

The next item is No. 712B, dated 14 July 2017, and received from Jim Breslin, Secretary General of the Department of the Health. This provides information requested by the committee on 15 June regarding contingent liabilities; a reconciliation of outturn figures; and an explanation for the exclusion of home helps from staffing numbers. Again, I suggest members study this and use it as they see fit.

If anyone wants to come back to it again, we can do so. We note that.

No. 714B is from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills enclosing the 2014 KPMG report regarding allegations against Cork Institute of Technology, as requested by the committee. The report has been redacted very heavily primarily because not to do so would identify individuals concerned. We note this and I am sure it is a matter that will be considered in our work programme for the coming year. It is extensive but there are a lot of redactions.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is actually unreadable.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we get an unredacted version? We cannot do our job; it is as simple as that. This is just basically saying "Go away." We spent hours here discussing this topic. That is a farce.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The previous Committee of Public Accounts got a copy of this report at the end of 2015. I am curious. Can we check if it was the same redacted version or is it more heavily redacted? It is the same redacted version.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is a complete waste of time. We cannot do our job. Either we can do our job or we cannot. We cannot do our job if that is what we get.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the report the Comptroller and Auditor General has the unredacted version? How is it the Comptroller and Auditor General can get an unredacted version?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Auditors normally need unredacted versions of documents.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We had extensive discussions here. There is no way we can do our job with that document.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How about we refer this to the parliamentary legal adviser to follow up the Deputy's point? Perhaps the PLA needs to consult the institute's legal adviser to agree an improved version. There will inevitably have to be some redaction if there are names mentioned.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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They might as well have just given us a black page.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly. I accept we cannot work with this because we could not draw any conclusions because we would not know what we were missing in the redactions. I do not know the mechanism. We, as a committee, cannot negotiate with Cork Institute of Technology.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We should ask the Oireachtas parliamentary legal adviser to help us to get a less redacted version and to communicate directly with the college on our behalf. I make that suggestion.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is probably not a bad suggestion depending on how long it will take. We do not want to be caught up in a prolonged exchange between our legal people and their legal people. Whatever about redacting on the basis of protecting an individual's identity, they have also redacted to take from our view the names of servers, providers and larger corporate entities. That is the bit that intrigues me. I do not see the rationale for doing that. I agree we cannot proceed with this redacted version. We should perhaps do two things. We should proceed as the Chairman suggests in terms of the legal advisers making contact and also write directly and say to them that we want an unredacted version of the report. They might surprise us.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is a good idea. As the Deputy said, they have redacted names of organisations and the amount of contracts.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is that all about?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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These events are four years old. They cannot quote commercial sensitivity for a contract that has been signed, sealed, delivered and paid for.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It was probably signed a few years before that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Commercial sensitivity does not last forever.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is not involved.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is my view on this. We will do both.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will we come back to it next week after the Chairman gets an initial finding?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are doing the two steps now. We are writing to them for the unredacted version.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine but can we keep it on the agenda and have a discussion next week about the legal advice we get? I do not want to be going off and getting initial legal advice that will take us months.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask our PLA to advise us because this is not the first time we have got something like this.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am sure there is precedent here.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We need to know where we are going with redacted documents as a general rule here at this committee. We will follow up both. I assure the Deputy the item will not slip off the agenda.

No. 715 is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills dated 19 July in response to a request from the committee regarding the building of a boat on school premises in Carraroe, County Galway. The Department requested the chairman of the board of management of the school to arrange for each of the issues raised in correspondence to be investigated. The chairman responded to the Department on 4 July with a comprehensive report. A four-page extract of the report is enclosed for the information of the committee. The Department has also arranged for the financial services support unit to undertake a financial audit of the school's accounts and has said it will keep the committee updated. I propose we note this correspondence. As it follows from an anonymous source to start with, we cannot attribute it specifically to any person. It is noted and published.

The next item is dated 24 July from the Secretary General of the Department of Finance following a request for information from the committee at our meeting on 6 July. We asked ten specific questions. He provides the information so we note and publish it. Members are free to follow it up in any way they like and come back to it again at a further date if they want.

No. 719B dated 26 July is from the office of the president of NUI Galway following a request from the committee for further details on the sale of intellectual property. We will note it and people can take it on board.

No. 720B is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills following a request from the committee regarding the transfer of properties from the Sisters of Charity, in particular properties being transferred as a contribution towards the costs incurred by the State with regard to institutional child abuse. The letter sets out the status of properties being transferred as requested. Deputy Connolly has an interest in this.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Cullinane and we will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to respond in a moment.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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All this came from the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report. My understanding is these properties are being transferred in lieu of cash. There was a settlement of cash and properties. If we have a difficulty, as an Teachta Connolly has said, where some of these properties have deteriorated such that their values have changed, does that come into it and does it mean the State could end up being short-changed again?

We are all aware of what the report contained and we have given our own views on whether the State was short-changed in any way in the context of the deal that was done. Are we going to be further short-changed? As a result of numerous delays, the properties are falling into a poor state and are not being maintained. When they are eventually transferred over, money has to be spent to bring them up to standard so there is no value at all to the State. It might even do the religious orders a favour to take them off their hands in some cases. There are serious issues in that regard and I would like to get the Comptroller and Auditor General's view on the matter. It is my understanding that this was part of the orders' way to pay the compensation. I imagine that a value was attached to these properties at the time. If the value is different now, where does that leave the arrangement?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

First, it is important to remember that there were two elements to the agreement. One was a negotiated process which occurred around 2002-2003 and which involved a deal or a contract with legal obligations on both sides. As I understand it, the agreement in 2009 was a moral or voluntary agreement whereby the congregations agreed to provide further recompense. There is a difference between properties in respect of which a handshake occurred and an agreement was made and those in respect of which, essentially, the congregations can live up to the obligations they made or, in law, from which they could walk away. It is important that the time factor is taken into account in all of this. Certainly, the fact that an agreement made in 2009 to transfer properties and some of them are still not settled is a concern.

On the issue of value, and the point at which value is struck, my general understanding is that the value that is credited to the congregations is the value at the date of the agreement. Any movement in values of property, either up or down afterwards, is the State's risk in the exchange. It could be argued that properties valued in 2009 at, let us say, €100 million might now, in aggregate, current market terms, be valued at €150 million or €200 million. There may be those kinds of movements. In the context of our presentation of it, we have always treated it as the value on the date the agreement was made. Whether properties went up or down in value thereafter is a separate issue.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee has received regular updates from the Department of Education and Skills on a property-by-property basis. At this stage, we might write to the Secretary General requesting a detailed, comprehensive report on the two separate agreements because the public is confused as to which is the original. We will need the dates of the original agreements and the valuation dates - let it be the date the Comptroller and Auditor General suggested - because I am sure it might have varied from religious order to religious order. In addition, we will want to see the dates on which the transactions were finally completed and where there are some outstanding, and the specific legal reason that is preventing completion. It may have to do with title and trusts and some of the religious institutions saying that they have to go to the Pope to get some of this signed off. I have heard that we are down to that type of argument. Let us crystalise this and get to the end of it. We will ask for that information.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask that specifically in respect of cases where transfers have not been completed. Having seen previous reports, I am aware that it has regularly been the case that the use of properties has been taken over by the State during the period in which matters relating to land registry were in the process of being completed. I am not referring to this case. In other instances, however, the State has used properties during the period in question despite the fact that issues relating to land registry or title deeds might not have been disposed of. The State is in possession and has use of certain of these properties. We need to get those things separated. We get the point.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We need to clarify the position.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will get clarification. Just because the process is not completed does not mean the State has not had the full value of it in the intervening period. However, clarification is needed.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The agreement was for the ownership of the property, not the enjoyment of it. That is a different thing.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we want completion. That is why I said I had heard excuses to the effect that matters had to be referred to the Vatican by certain orders on previous occasions. We will note the correspondence.

No. 726B is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform following our meeting on 6 July. The committee had requested answers in respect of seven specific issues and he has given a detailed response on each. Those questions were put in public so the replies are being noted and published. People are free to follow up on those matters and raise them again at any future date if they so wish.

No. 731B is correspondence from the chief executive of the Irish Greyhound Board that includes information requested by the committee on the strategic plan and television contracts. We will note this response and publish it. Members are free to use this report as they see fit.

No. 732B is correspondence dated 3 August from the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, acknowledging the committee's request for information in respect of Console and stating that a reply will be received shortly. The secretariat has been in touch with the Department in recent days to follow up on the matter and we still have no response. The Minister says in the letter of 3 August, "Thank you for your letter concerning the former charity Console. I am having the issues you raised examined and I will reply back to you shortly." That was two and a half weeks ago.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long is "shortly"?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we use this as an example and take the opportunity to write to all Ministers, send out a circular or do something? This is just a holding letter to fob us off until, hopefully, we will just go away or there will be a general election. It is a joke and a farce.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write back to the Minister saying we want an immediate-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How can we deal with this issue more generally? There are loads of examples of this happening.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I would say the Deputy sent out a few such letters himself.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I probably did but I am in a different role now.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have quite an amount of correspondence following previous requests for information; practically everything. Witnesses are following through. The secretariat is keeping check of the outstanding requests and this is why this issue has arisen. We do ask for the information within ten working days, which is the normal way.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How will the committee's further communication to the Minister on this matter be framed?

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Could I ask for clarification? It is only a one-line reply. I assume it is in respect of the unpaid wages.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. This has been going on for a good while.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. The committee made it very clear at the previous meeting that we wanted an urgent response to that. However, there has been no response over the entire summer period.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. It is really in the Minister's hands because we know that, legally, the liquidator cannot do it and it is being passed around.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is why we wrote the letter in the first instance.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that is why we wrote it. We will send the strongest possible letter to the Minister personally. We need a response-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We must state that it is not acceptable.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but we did understand that if the Minister is responding on this issue of making an ex gratiapayment, it may have to go to Cabinet. A Minister would not be able to unilaterally set a precedent in making an ex gratia payment for unpaid wages. That was mentioned before the summer.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I agree that, in general, we are fobbed off with holding letters in any event. We need to do something about that, but the terrible thing regarding this situation is that it is a small number of people who were short-changed and left high and dry by an agency funded by the HSE and the State. Wherever the legal responsibility does or does not reside, I am of the view that the Minister, as a matter of honour, needs to intervene. That is why the committee wrote to him.

When the committee writes to him again, in addition to questioning his definition of the word "shortly", we should also state that the reason for writing is that the committee appears to be the only forum left for getting some satisfaction for the employees. While the sum of money involved is modest, it would mean a great deal to the individuals in question.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. I believe a significant reason for Console ultimately going bust and into liquidation was that the Health Service Executive, the organisation's funder, was not on the case and allowed this to happen.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The things that happened in Console were wrong, but the HSE-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The HSE was not on the ball.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The principal reason for this situation is a lack of action by the HSE.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is absolutely correct.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will keep on top of this issue.

No. 734B is a note received from An Garda Síochána on 4 August regarding the interim report on the reopening of Garda stations. The note states that a final report will be submitted to the Minister for Justice and Equality and suggests it would be appropriate for the committee to make inquiries with the Department. The secretariat has written to the Department and its response will be brought before the committee in due course. The secretariat has also followed up with the acting Garda Commissioner following the promise he made at the meeting of 13 July last to report to the committee. We are awaiting a response. Deputy Cullinane or another member had written-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I raised this matter with the then assistant commissioner now acting Commissioner in July. On that occasion, we were informed there would be no problem providing the committee with the report. To be clear, we are seeking the data, facts, figures and rationale used when making a decision as to which Garda stations should be reopened. We are entitled to that information and there is no reason for the Garda to fudge or delay on the matter. What criteria were applied and how was the decision arrived at to recommend the reopening of Stepaside Garda station as against other Garda stations? I do not understand the reason the Garda could indicate there would be no problem with the committee having that information, yet we received correspondence in August indicating we could not have it. Given the committee's experience of dealing with the Accounting Officer of An Garda Síochána, it would not be good if the Garda were to continue with the policy of evasion or ducking and diving as regards its interactions with the committee. Clearly, some criteria were applied to arrive at these decisions and we want to see what they were. I do not accept the Garda fobbing the committee off to the Department of Justice and Equality. Mr. Ó Cualáin is now the acting Accounting Officer and he is accountable to the committee. We must write to him reminding him of the commitment he gave the committee in July. We should state clearly that we want to know what criteria were applied, how they were applied and what methodology was used in making the decision to reopen certain Garda stations, including Stepaside Garda station.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Leaving aside that important issue for a moment and the methodology used, the reply from An Garda Síochána is disingenuous and goes to the heart of how, as an institution and corporate body, it interacts with the Committee of Public Accounts. Its letter answers a question it was not asked and refers to reports we did not seek. We did not ask for a copy of the interim or final reports. These will go before the Cabinet, which will have sight of them and adjudicate on whatever information is provided. The statement that a final report will be presented to the Minister is a sleight of hand. The committee did not seek the final report and we must be very strong in asking for the information we seek.

There appears to be frequent attempts to be fly and clever by providing responses that cover the Garda but do not provide the information being sought. When the former assistant commissioner, who is now the acting Commissioner, appeared before the committee he had no difficulty stating the Garda would pass on the information we sought. However, the Garda subsequently decided it would not provide this information, which raises questions as to the reasons it is not being provided. The committee has sought this information and needs to be given it.

While the final report, which makes recommendations on what stations should be reopened, is obviously a matter for the Cabinet, a value for money issue arises because the reason given for closing some Garda stations in the first place was that they were not needed and closing them would save money. Reopening some of them will give rise to costs. The committee wants to find out what methodology was used to make these decisions and we are entitled to that information. The response from the Garda is disingenuous.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There must have been some rationale for reopening Stepaside Garda station. If not, a political decision was made to open a particular Garda station. If there was such a rationale, even for Stepaside Garda station, let us see what it was.

We were informed by the Garda that the increase in Garda numbers will create a problem in respect of accommodating new members of the force. Some form of work planning framework must be in place to determine what accommodation will be needed in circumstances in which the workforce is expanding. Some of the new staff will be civilians. We could end up in a position where, having sold properties, the Garda will subsequently have to buy similar properties. It is not only an issue of what happened in the past. It is about future-proofing to prevent a waste of public money.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let us be quite frank about this issue. We all smell a rat. According to the transcript of the relevant meeting, the then assistant commissioner and now acting Commissioner stated he would provide the committee with the information we sought. He was speaking ad libitumwhen he indicated there would be no problem providing the information. As acting Commissioner, he is now the most senior garda in the country.

As we all know, criteria must be applied in making such decisions. The letter or piece of paper containing two paragraphs that we received is utterly disingenuous. It is a borderline political response because it answers questions that were not asked and avoids the issue on which we all want answers, namely, the criteria that must have been applied when the decision was taken to reopen certain Garda stations. If criteria were not applied, a political decision was taken for the benefit of a certain individual who sits at the Cabinet table. The committee must see the criteria. The Department of Justice and Equality must have decided to present this statement to the committee, through An Garda Síochána, as a holding line because it does not want to provide the information requested until it is able to back it up and put it through the Cabinet or one of its sub-committees. I suggest the committee write to the acting Garda Commissioner demanding that he honour the undertaking he gave in response to the committee's request for information. We should indicate we want this information by this day next week and that if it is not provided, we will find that he is not co-operating with the committee.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Over the summer, members will have reflected on everything that happened in the committee during the first half of the year and the fallout from and ramifications of our debates have had on a district-by-district and county-by-county basis. Next Monday, I will attend a policing meeting with the local chief superintendent and superintendent as well as political and community representatives at which we will discuss a programme for policing in County Meath. Developments such as the matter we are discussing have a detrimental effect on such meetings. The broader ramification of this discussion is that it undermines our efforts when we attend public meetings to discuss policing. Garda stations in Oldcastle and Athboy in north County Meath and others in south County Meath have been closed or are only partially open. When nonsense such as this comes before us, it undermines the essence of what is being discussed.

Previous speakers raised the methodology used in making the decision to reopen certain Garda stations, specifically Stepaside Garda station. I wonder if the photograph of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, standing at a traffic light with a local councillor, holding a poster and giving a thumbs-up sign will be redacted when the methodology used in making the decision is published. I am sure as hell there is not a whole lot else to step over it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Following on from that, I suggest that we write to the acting commissioner, tell him we want him to come to the committee at the earliest opportunity, next week if possible, bringing with him an account of the methodology applied in making this decision, and set out that we want to have an exchange with him on the matter. This is a patent exercise in evasion which is very disappointing after everything that transpired. He made a very clear commitment to me and the committee that there was no problem and went so far as to say, when I asked him, that it would be reasonable to expect it in a day or two. What happened between then and now? It is not good enough for him as acting commissioner to imagine he is going to play a game of cat and mouse with us. We must make it very clear to him, as the Accounting Officer with a direct line of accountability to this committee, that this is not on. Surely he should have realised that at this stage given everything that has happened. Not alone do I want a letter written to the acting commissioner, I want him to present himself here to make an account of himself, provide us with a rationale and set out clearly the analysis, data and methodology by which decisions were taken to reopen some Garda stations while leaving others closed, in particular the Stepaside Garda station. As a committee, we are entitled to that information.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As I see it, they were here in early July and decisions had been announced. We now look at the letter we received in August which says a final report will be submitted to the Minister shortly. A month after he tells us he has a report done, he is writing to us to say a final report will be submitted shortly. He goes on to say it will be presented to the Government. If it goes into the Cabinet, we are not going to get the Cabinet papers. We will be told that once we follow it up at that level.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Absolutely.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The issue is very clear. A commitment was given and the letter we have received from them says it was in the context of a request from the Minister in the context of the programme for Government. He knew that when he agreed to give it to us. Telling us that now, which is two months later, is of no relevance. He knew that when he answered the question. We are not seeking to know how the Cabinet arrived at its decision, which is beyond our brief. We are seeking the material from An Garda Síochána-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Justifying their decision-making in spending public money.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----and we can see their report. We all know the outcome of the Government decision. We will just see if there is any correlation between the two events.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is all about public money.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And public money. We have followed it up with the acting commissioner, but I had intended we would write to him again to remind him of the commitment and, if we had that complete, that he would be invited. Rather than to get straight into the Garda, given that we can come to it in the work programme, we will give the Garda representatives the week to supply it. We will tell them that if we do not receive it, they will be invited in. We will just give them one week.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wonder about the wisdom of that for the committee. I want him to come here and set it out. If the methodology is robust and this is how they went about their work, that is great. However, we have to have surveillance of that and he needs to understand from day one and page one of taking on his duties that he is not going to mislead or fob off this committee. We have been through that experience with An Garda Síochána, which was not a good experience for anyone concerned. It is not an experience we will repeat. As a member of the committee, my preference is simply to cut to the chase and invite the acting commissioner in to make good a commitment he made to the committee last July. We can have an exchange which will be a fairly short one if matters are transparent and clear. We are entitled to surveillance of that and should not be going with a cap-in-hand attitude to the Garda. We need to be firmer than that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am agreeing because I have just checked who the letter came from. The note we have before us obviously did not come from the acting commissioner because Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan was Commissioner on 4 August when we received it. I am told the note we have received has come from the office of Joe Nugent, the chief administrative officer. We are now in the situation that the deputy commissioner, who is now the acting commissioner, gave a formal commitment in public to the Committee of Public Accounts, but we now have the office of the chief administrative officer writing to us to say something completely different. As far as I am concerned, I am now seeing a direct conflict between what I will call the civilian side of An Garda Síochána in how it is dealing with the committee and how the acting commissioner, who was the deputy commissioner-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I would not lump all the civilians into one bucket.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am just referring to this case. This has not come from the deputy commissioner or the former Commissioner. It has come from the chief administrative officer's office, which is not what we are looking for at all. We did not want to hear from the chief administrative officer on this issue. The deputy commissioner gave a black and white commitment and we want to hear from the acting commissioner now.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We need to make a decision on this. What may potentially happen now that this has been raised, and I am sure there are lots of eyes on this issue as we are talking, is that something may be pulled together from the Department of Justice and Equality with An Garda Síochána, go into Cabinet next Tuesday and become Cabinet documents from which we are potentially locked out. We need to avoid that. If we are going to bring in the acting commissioner next week, which I support, it will be a very short meeting if he can supply the criteria beforehand. It will be transparent. We are not going to drift into anything else. It will be just this issue. It will be very short, although that will be if it stands up, which I doubt.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write to the acting commissioner today asking for a copy of the report prepared by An Garda Síochána - it is what is in An Garda Síochána, not what is in the Department of Justice and Equality or is going to Cabinet - by tomorrow evening, which is Friday, and we are requesting him to attend next Thursday morning. We will set aside a half an hour, with the time to be agreed. If he is busy in the afternoon, we might take him very briefly before we deal with-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Agreed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is at a time to be agreed.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Agreed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are setting time aside next week. He is to appear in both cases.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am glad we have come to this decision because we need to set down ground rules. There will be a lot of ancillary issues raised in relation to An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality, and if we are gong to be fobbed off and given the runaround, we need to set ground rules which show we will not tolerate it. This is an example of it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We were told one thing in public session at the previous meeting before the summer break and we are being told something completely different in this correspondence from An Garda Síochána in the meantime. The Committee of Public Accounts is not going to tolerate that kind of activity from any public body.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Let me just take the next item of correspondence.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Nos. 738B(i) to (vii) are items of correspondence received from An Garda Síochána on 17 August enclosing information as requested by the committee on 13 July. The committee requested information on payments to AA Ireland for technical services, arrangements regarding tax clearance of suppliers, payments to public relations companies, the tender for Garda uniforms, sponsorship relating to a conference hosted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Garda telecommunications unit, the Charleton tribunal co-ordination unit and the probationer allocation per division. There are emails toing and froing on this issue of the reopening. There are emails dated 17 July, 27 July and 4 August. There has been regular contact.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The secretariat might help me on this. I am reading from the thread of the emails, which is very short, from the secretariat to Joe Nugent. On 17 July, Joe Nugent was in contact with John O'Callaghan of the Department of Justice and Equality regarding the release of the O'Driscoll report. That is the name on the report. He said he would be in contact with the committee as soon as the Department clarified the position. Straight away-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. This was on 17 July. The deputy commissioner had been here four days earlier saying he would give us the report.

We find that immediately after the public commitment the Garda administration are in contact with the Department of Justice and Equality concerning the release of it. On 22 July, ten days later, our secretariat contacted the office wondering if there was any update. On 4 August the secretariat received a short note back from the office of Joe Nugent, which read: "Apologies for the delay. Please see the attached statement regarding the station re-opening." We have found an absolute turnaround of approach.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Our issue as the Committee of Public Accounts is that we had a commitment from An Garda Síochána.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is clear here is that immediately after our meeting in which we got the commitment that we would be given the report, An Garda Síochána, through Joe Nugent's office, contacted John O'Callaghan of the Department of Justice and Equality regarding-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, after we had received the public commitment. We want to know what happened to the public commitment we were given.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No, not at this stage.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Nice try.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We want to see the criteria in the report of An Garda Síochána.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We want to see their analysis, data and criteria.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not just the report, but also the criteria that it used to justify the report.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is the background data that we are after, which is in the possession of An Garda Síochána, not the Department of Justice and Equality. The Garda has that, and we want to see it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is very clear that immediately after the meeting where the public commitment was given there were moves made to row back on that commitment.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. That is how it looks.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To summarise, we are writing to the acting commissioner asking for the report and the criteria involved in that report to be presented to us by tomorrow evening. He either has the report or he has not. In addition, we are requesting that the acting commissioner appear here next Thursday. If we have the report it will be a very brief meeting. If we do not have the report it will not be so brief. To be clear, if the acting commissioner is here next Thursday we will be asking about one specific item. There will be other days.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The work programme will be in public session.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will finalise the work programme for next Thursday when we come to it in a few moments.

We will note and publish that thread of emails that I have just read out.

No. 739B is dated 17 August from the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, following requests from the committee on 13 July for further information regarding discussions between the Department and other parties regarding legislative change for the oversight by the Comptroller and Auditor General of funds managed by the Courts Services in relation to wards of court. We will also agree to note this and send a copy of this to the lady who has been corresponding with the committee. It is an issue we will continue to follow up on.

No. 740B is from the chief executive of Caranua following concerns raised by members of the committee regarding information regarding Caranua. Members can read the correspondence. We note and publish that

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Next item, No. 741B, Nos. 1 to 5 dated 28 August is from the chief executive of the Courts Service, following the request from the committee on 13 July when it attended. This provides the information on District Court waiting times, the contract with Curran Communications and a breakdown of expenditure on training and incidental expenses. We note and publish that.

No. 743B, dated 30 August comes from the deputy commissioner of An Garda Síochána, enclosing information regarding the national anti-crime strategy, Operation Thor. We note and publish that.

No. 744B, dated 31 August from Niall Cody, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, is regarding a request from the committee in relation to hiring private investigation teams on behalf of public bodies to deal with complaints of bullying and harassment in the work place. It seems to have a comprehensive policy of outsourcing dealing with allegations of bullying. We can note and publish that.

No. 748B, dated 31 August, is from the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality in response to a request from the committee for information regarding the number of bank accounts operated by An Garda Síochána and Mr. Waters. I want to read this letter out. We will need to follow up with this. "I refer to your letter of 9 June. I have now been informed by Garda management that An Garda Síochána currently operates some 130 public bank accounts and three charity accounts". Does the Garda need 130 separate bank accounts to operate, Mr. McCarthy?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I believe that there could be some closing of accounts. We are aware of all of these accounts. Some of them have very minor sums and some are dormant. They could be tidied up. A substantial number of them are impressed accounts for each district, which is used for what is effectively petty cash, paying local expenses and so on. That would already give rise to a significant number of accounts.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That would mean 20 accounts before we start.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, and then there would be units as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There has been so much talk about the number of Garda accounts. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the amount of accounts, but if some are dormant and tidying up is required then well and good. We will write back to An Garda Síochána for details, to ask it to review the accounts and decide if they are all necessary and, if not, to close them down. We are not going to examine the 130 bank accounts. However, it seems like a large number of accounts on the face of it. That is all I would say. We will ask for clarification, and if it can be rationalised that is all well and good.

No. 751B dated end of August comes from the Department of Health, enclosing copy of correspondence sent to an individual who raised a number of matters relating to the e-health strategy, principally with the committee, on 13 July 2017. Can we note and publish this correspondence? That is agreed.

We have finished all of the correspondence from the Accounting Officers of public bodies and Ministers for now. We are going on to the correspondence from individuals.

No. 500C is an item held over from the previous meeting.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The bank account is 756.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I skipped 754. Have I skipped it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is not on the Chairman's schedule. Is it on screen?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is on screen. I skipped it by mistake. We have a copy of the letter. It is from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills dated 14 August in relation to the accommodation requirements of Caranua. Sorry, I skipped it in my list. The Deputy said that she wanted to come back to Caranua.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will note and publish that in the meantime.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, No. 756B. Here we go again. It is an update on the Deloitte report. This relates to the south-east case.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The imminent report that has been imminent for months.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and there is a commission of investigation examining it now.

The letter states: "I refer to your recent correspondence seeking an update on the current position regarding the Deloitte report." This is in relation to the payments to the Waterford charity that dealt with the abuse case. The letter continued: "I wish to advise that I will receive the Deloitte report today." The letter was dated 15 September and it continued:

I will need time to consider the report and I also intend seeking the consent of the Commission of Enquiry to share the report with the Committee. As soon as I have considered the report and provided the Commission of Enquiry consents to my sharing of it, I will submit the report to the Committee together with any observations I may have.

Here we go again. We got an absolute commitment previously from Tony O'Brien that we would get this report. We only became aware of it when it was mentioned in the High Court that the report existed and the cost to the charity, the funds it had lost out on, and the compensation payment in relation to dealing with that abuse case in the south east. We have been told time and again that we will get the report, that it is not finalised, that it is going between the various parties, that Deloitte is nearly finished, that the HSE is awaiting observations, and that we would get it as soon as possible. Now we have been told by Tony O'Brien that he will consider the matter. Here we go again. We have been promised the report in public and there is one thing that the Committee of Public Accounts will do. If we get a public commitment from a public official, it will be honoured or he or she will come here to explain why he or she has not honoured a public commitment. This committee will not have commitments given in public and the person walking out of the door thinking he or she can walk away from such commitments. It is as simple as that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are referring to the Grace case in the south east when we talk about the Deloitte report, which is the second Deloitte report that we have today. In case people are wondering what case we are talking about, I can confirm that we are talking about the Grace case in the south east.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When Mr. O'Brien was with us earlier in the year, he told us that we would be provided with the report imminently. He then came back and revised his commitment. He claimed that he had not been provided with the report, it had to be given to the people who would be named in it, and there were a whole lot of different things that he had not anticipated. We had him back when the inquiry was announced and told him we could differentiate between what work the inquiry would do and what work the Committee of Public Accounts would do. At no point did he say to us that the work of the inquiry would act as an impediment to us receiving the report. That is a new development today. It is a little bit like the last item we dealt with in terms of the Garda. The approach seems to be whether we can find a way of not doing this.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Two common themes have emerged today. The Garda Síochána and the HSE are possibly the two biggest and most powerful organisations in the State. The Garda Síochána is responsible for our safety and the HSE is responsible for our health. We were given commitments by both senior officials who attended meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts before the summer break that they would provide information. Over the course of the summer they have attempted to weasel out of their public commitments. The national Parliament and the Committee of Public Accounts would not be doing their job if they allowed this to happen. I suggest that both officials be brought in, in respect of their previous commitments that they gave in public, and that we deal with them. We must make people realise that when they attend here, it is serious business. They cannot come in, give evidence and think they are gone for 12 months. We must put down a marker now. I propose that we seek the report. It is a financial matter concerning €600,000.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was the money paid last year? Has it been paid? Does the Comptroller and Auditor know? He might not know.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not know.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. The figure is something like what I said because I read it in media reports as it was mentioned in the courts. We want both of those people in here, as urgently as possible, to deal with the specific commitments they gave in public to the national Parliament's Committee of Public Accounts and the subsequent pulling back from that commitment by the officials. That is the issue they will come in for. Is that agreed?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It will be a long day next Thursday.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To summarise, we will give Mr. O'Brien the extracts of the previous committee meeting where he gave a commitment. We will stress this issue is strictly a financial issue and is 100% within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts. Other organisations of the State may choose to do so and while they do so, the Committee of Public Accounts does not stand down from its obligations to look after public funds. This involves €600,000 or thereabouts that goes from the HSE, which is taxpayers' money, to the organisation that was wrongfully deprived of that sum over a period so that it could provide the services Grace should have got over all of those years.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we do.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is a financial report.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Deloitte financial report.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the course of action. Is there merit in us making contact with the commission of inquiry and asking whether it has requested the report and placed restrictions on circulating it to this committee? I entirely agree other Deputies that what we have heard today is a diversionary tactic. I also agree that we need to find ways to corroborate information that is given to us. I am thinking out loud. I agree with the course of action that the Chairman has described. In addition, is there merit with us making direct contact with the commission and asking whether it has placed an impediment?

I cannot see why they would, given the nature of the report. The only problem is that it might delay things.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are inviting-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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While it is often very positive when an inquiry is set up, one of the frustrating things is that it closes down other lines of inquiry on things. We need to learn some lessons on that as it possibly closes things down inappropriately. For example, someone who has submitted a freedom of information request before an inquiry has been set up cannot be refused that reply on the basis that an inquiry has been set up if the FOI predates the inquiry. There are elements of that which are important to us in learning lessons on future inquiries that might be set up.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I understand and appreciate where people are coming from regarding requests that predated the establishment of the Farrelly commission of investigation. However, while it is all well and good talking in this way, we need legal advice. To me it is not a question of whether we should receive it; it is a question of our time. I do not believe our time is best spent investigating something that has already been investigated by an authority with the appropriate level of expertise, which we do not have, and that matter will be put in the public domain. I am not sure what is being served by us getting documentation. The committee should be given clarity as to what we are entitled to receive and what is barred as a result of the Farrelly commission of investigation and go from there.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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May I just say-----

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to forgive my interruption. It is nothing to do with her. I am just talking about process and our time. In my opinion we have spent an awful lot of time on matters that are outside our purview or on the edge of our purview. We have also spent an awful lot of time investigating matters where we do not have expertise and where others who do are investigating those matters. There is a line that we obviously like to press up against, but on occasion we dip over it. When it comes to an inquiry of such gravity, based on my assumption of what advices would be provided, I am not sure what purpose would be served by pursuing that and particularly corresponding with a commission like that, other than to make a headline. That is my view.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not making even a-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will hold off making any contact with the commission lest it might misinterpret that we are trying to tread on its area.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I think we are clear on both issues now.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I take slight issue here; this is very much within our remit. It is about money.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deloitte report is coming.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If the Committee of Public Accounts is not about that, I do not know what it is about.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a payment of the order of €600,000 of taxpayers' money to go to the charity or the organisation that looked after Grace. That is taxpayers' money and is 100% within our remit. The issue of the commission is a different issue. The €600,000 is very much within our remit and is public money. Therefore, we are inviting both people. We will have the report by tomorrow from the Garda Síochána and one way or another they are invited for next Thursday, time to be agreed between the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and their office. We will write to Mr. Tony O'Brien requesting a copy of this report by tomorrow evening and for him to be present next Thursday. Both meetings could be very short. If they are co-operating and following through on the public commitments, they will be very short meetings. If they are not short, it is their call. Given the previous evidence given by the two persons involved, we want them to explain why we have not received the information they promised in public that we would receive.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are asking to have the reports by Friday. We want both reports by tomorrow evening. Both reports are obviously completed now and can be emailed to us. Let me outline the purpose of next week's meeting with the two people. If we get the reports tomorrow and circulate them to members of the committee and they are happy that they fully answer the question, do we need the people to appear before the committee in person? If they have honoured their commitment in full, what is the purpose?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is as simple as this. We are asking for both reports by tomorrow evening. If the reports are not received by tomorrow evening, they will appear here next Thursday.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is perfect; agreed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If one of the reports happens to arrive-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will consider it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will consider it next Thursday. If the report is not here by tomorrow evening, they are to be here in person next Thursday. The time is to be arranged because representatives from HIQA will be coming in and we might have to move the schedules an hour either way. It is a bit early. We cannot just sign off that. That is the report on the Grace case.

We come to correspondence from private individuals and other correspondence. No. 500C was held over from the previous meeting. It is correspondence dated 15 May 2017 from an individual regarding evidence relating to an ongoing dispute between North Meath Community Development Association and the HSE. The matter has been before the committee on several occasions and at the meeting on 25 May 2017, the committee came to the view that the matter was outside its remit but agreed to review the correspondence that had been sent to the Department of the Taoiseach in 2016. The secretariat has reviewed this correspondence. When the previous correspondence raised the matter with the Department of the Taoiseach in January 2016, it did not request any specific action. Since then the matter was reviewed by the Department of Health, which concluded it was not appropriate to intervene in an HSE operational matter. In March 2017 we wrote to this body, enclosing correspondence from the committee from the Minister for Health, to convey the position of the committee that this is ultimately a contractual matter and that the committee cannot provide further assistance on the matter. We should acknowledge efforts by the HSE to protect taxpayers' money in dealing with such contracts. I propose that we write a further letter to reiterate that the matter is outside the remit of the committee and the committee's consideration of this matter is now closed. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is 698C, dated 12 July from Deputy Catherine Murphy requesting the committee to include an upgrade on the www.jobsireland.iewebsite undertaken by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection in the top six the committee may choose to examine in our work programme. Can we hold that over until we discuss our work programme, which is the next item on the agenda?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Sure.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No. 699C, dated 13 July is correspondence from an individual who was advised by Deputy Willie O'Dea to inform the committee about a bullying complaint against University College Cork. We note that. No. 700 is correspondence dated 13 July from Professor Des Fitzgerald, president of the University of Limerick in reply to the correspondence making the bullying complaint and stating he will investigate the matter. We note that.

No. 702 is correspondence dated 13 July from Mr. Jerry Grant, managing director of Irish Water regarding procurement issues raised by the committee. The letter states that an internal review is being carried out. No. 717, which was received separately, is a follow-up letter to the one dated 24 July, also from Irish Water. In it the managing director states that Irish Water adhered to all EU rules on procurement. He went on to state that in this case a second preferred bidder for water cleaning chemicals has been appointed to address the competition issues. Is it agreed to note and publish that? Agreed.

No. 703 is correspondence from an individual dated 14 July requesting the committee to investigate a charity involved in the welfare of horses in County Wicklow.

I propose that we write to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to seek a detailed response. As the charity in question is substantially funded by taxpayers' money, we want to see the governance arrangements that have been put in place by the Department in respect of the allocation of public funds to it. When we get a reply from the Department, we will deal with the matter.

No. 704 is anonymous correspondence dated 16 July requesting the committee to make inquiries with the Garda Commissioner regarding the prosecution of child pornography cases. As this matter may be more appropriate for consideration by the justice committee, I propose that we forward it to that committee. Having looked at the matter, I cannot see how it falls under our remit. We will send it straight to the justice committee.

No. 709 is correspondence from a company, Flow East, regarding a meeting of the finance committee with NAMA. The secretary has sent a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the company, as requested. That has been done and we will note that.

Correspondence, dated 14 July, has been received from Professor Des Fitzgerald, who is the president of the University of Limerick, inviting members of this committee to visit the university. I think it would be very interesting to follow up this offer, but I cannot see how our work programme will allow it for now. I propose that we invite to Professor Fitzgerald to thank him for extending this offer at this time.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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As Vice Chairman, I will go there on behalf of the committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As Vice Chairman.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, no problem.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. You can represent the committee on that basis. I would be delighted.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is 20 minutes over the road.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will you arrange it through the secretariat?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, no problem.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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You can decide whether you want the secretariat to act on behalf of the committee or whether you will go yourself as Vice Chairman. It is your call.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Anyone who wants to accompany Deputy Kelly to the University of Limerick should let the secretariat know. It is a good invitation.

No. 716C, dated 12 July, is from an individual who is inquiring about the status of previous inquiries of the committee regarding public funds provided to SIPTU. The correspondent was previously advised that An Garda Síochána was investigating the matter. The secretariat has requested an update from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation in recent days, which we await. We will note that correspondence.

No. 721, dated 25 July, is from an investigations officer in the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner notifying the clerk that she is investigating a complaint submitted by an individual who had previously corresponded with the Committee of Public Accounts and whose identity was made known to an external organisation as part of the committee follow-up. We will note that.

No. 722C, dated 13 July, is from the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality, Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, requesting the committee to be mindful that issues examined by the committee are within its remit. Would any member like to comment? I propose that we should write to the justice committee stating that while we take into account the points raised, as this committee fulfils its remit there may be a certain overlap with other committees. I suggest we should say that while we try to avoid unnecessary duplication, as the Oireachtas should, there will be issues that are under our remit and under the remit of other committees. We will try to make sure there is no unnecessary duplication or doubling-up of the work. I think we will reply in that context.

Correspondence, dated 20 July, has been received from the secretary general of the Irish Hospital Consultants Association. It is a pre-budget submission. We will note it.

Nos. 424C(i) to (iii) are copies of correspondence to the Taoiseach dated 25 and 27 July from an individual alleging fraud. We are asked to do nothing. We will just note it.

No. 725C is correspondence dated 27 July from Deputy Marc MacSharry requesting the committee to examine the outsourcing by An Garda Síochána of speed detection cameras to the GoSafe consortium. Does the Deputy want to comment?

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I need to refresh my memory because this correspondence was sent some time ago.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The next item of correspondence, No. 749, has been received from Deputy Farrell on the same issue. I will call him next. Deputy MacSharry can see the correspondence on the screen. He probably wrote it a little while ago. It was received at the end of July.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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None of us likes the idea of the police or any organisation shooting fish in a barrel by setting up speed cameras on motorways and all the rest of it. At the same time, we have to look at the overall cost. The comparison between the income from fines and the outlay seems to be very significant. There seems to be no targeting where they are supposed to catch so many people. It does not seem to be related to performance in any way. I think €1.2 million a month is significant. If we could look into this, it might be worthwhile.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I think I referred in my correspondence to the fact that there are occasions when the State has to spend money to uphold the law. It is not necessarily about the cost of the provision of the service. We do not know how much it used to cost the State service provider - An Garda Síochána - to provide this service prior to the award of the contract. More importantly, we know from custom, practice and experience that we will not get a copy of a contract. We will have nothing to investigate in the future other than what the gentleman to my right has said. While I understand where the Deputy is coming from, I am not sure it is something we can get our teeth into in a meaningful way. As a member of the justice committee - I will be a former member of it soon - I suggest it would be more appropriate for us to look not necessarily at the financial or contractual side of this matter, but at the effectiveness of this system in reducing motoring offences. That is a matter for the justice committee rather than this committee. I agree that the financial side of these operations would be a matter for this committee. We are not really in a position to answer some of the pertinent questions I have asked about the overall cost of this. More importantly, perhaps, we need to understand that it will cost us a little bit of money to ensure road users adhere to the rules of the road. It is never going to break even.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a difficulty in linking matters like this to performance and numbers. We saw that with the breathalyser numbers. People were pressurised to produce results. I would also like to focus on the logic of this. The idea underpinning the spending of this money is that it is preventative. Its success is not measured in massive returns to the coffers of the State. It is probably a healthy thing if the amount we are spending is more than the yield, with the caveat that it needs to be an accurate depiction of what is happening on the roads. It would make sense in those circumstances. If there was a suggestion of something improper in the awarding of the contract, I could see that we could investigate it, but other than that-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know whether Deputy MacSharry wants to elaborate on the matter.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will bring him back in after Deputy Catherine Murphy has spoken. I will call the Comptroller and Auditor General then because I think he has dealt with this topic previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We will come back to that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is not just a matter for the justice committee; it is also a matter for the transport committee because there is a road safety element to it. I think the Road Safety Authority reports to the transport committee. It is a matter for both. I had a very good look at some numbers a few years ago. They did not correlate to the areas where one sees signs showing how many people were killed on the roads there. Higher levels of fines tend to be imposed on those driving on segregated roads with high volumes of traffic. That is very much-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What does the Deputy mean by a "segregated" road?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A road that is just going in one direction.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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One-way traffic.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I agree that this is something very intangible. How can one say a life was saved as a consequence of a change in behaviour that resulted from one of these installations being on a road? I agree that I do not think we will be able to delve into areas other than the contractual element. It is as much to do with transport as it is to do with justice.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am agnostic on the question of who should look into it. If the cost per life saved is €1 million, and that is agreeable, so be it. It is difficult to put a price on it. In the case of the cancer drug nivolumab, the cost per life saved is €50,000, unless one goes on the Joe Duffy show to harass politicians for six months and get it approved. If it is more than that, then that is fine. Maybe we should write to the justice committee or the transport committee, or both. I presume there is a metric within An Garda Síochána, which runs speed checks, to see what the costs are there. We could find out how many are being done. Of course we hope the figures will be accurate. We need to be able to compare the position here with international best practice. If we find that the amount of money being spent here is in line with how much these things tend to cost, there will be no problem at all. How does one strike a figure of €1.2 million a month? What is it based on? That is all. It is fine. Maybe we could drop a note to the justice and transport committees to ask them to look at this to ascertain whether it represents value for money, whether they are happy with the cost per life saved and that kind of thing.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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This was dealt with previously.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I reported on it in 2013, in respect of 2012. Having carried out the 2016 audit, I am aware that the contract has been renewed. I will have a look at the procurement and if there is any issue, I will report it. Operationally, my understanding is that they are required to mount the checks but there is no target for them to catch. The locations where they stand are predetermined by agreement with An Garda Síochána and there has been some rejigging of that to take account of shifts in where the problems are occurring. The Garda Síochána can turn up in many more places with much less predictability. One sees the camera signal indicating an area where one may encounter something but that tends not to be the case with An Garda Síochána. There are operational decisions and I will not be investigating them but I will report back if there is any concern around procurement.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On which audit did this issue arise? Was it road safety?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was the Garda Síochána vote, from which GoSafe is paid.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is not transport.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The contract is between An Garda Síochána and GoSafe.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Murphy thought it concerned the Road Safety Authority.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am on the transport committee and the Road Safety Authority came into us. Twenty years ago or more, some work was done to arrive at a metric to justify an upgrade of a road based on the number of fatalities. Every life is precious but a number was arrived at to give some criterion for doing it. It is perfectly possible to direct changes where there is a high level of fatality.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did the same contractor get the contract again?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did it go through normal, proper procurement?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There was a procurement competition and I want to have a look at the terms of that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If there is an issue, the Comptroller and Auditor General will come back on it.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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That is all well and good in terms of procurement but what about value for money? Deputy MacSharry mentioned €1.2 million per month but I guess that is an operational matter.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. I do not envisage looking at that

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is proper to the justice committee because it relates to the Garda Vote.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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That was my thinking.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If anyone wants to take it up with the justice committee please do, but we have discussed it and noted it.

The next item of correspondence is No. 727, dated 28 July, from an individual with copies of communication between himself and the Office of the Minister for Education and Skills regarding teachers' pay and pension coming from the public purse while their contracts of employment are with the school boards of management. This is an interesting matter and I propose we write to the Department of the Taoiseach for a list of those categories of professionals who are not employed by the State but who are paid State salaries and pensions.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is an interesting matter.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is very interesting.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is a nuanced point and the man in question has something that needs to be checked out. I checked it out myself and maybe, as an interim step, we should look for further information.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I suggest we write to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We are continually told teachers are employed by the boards of management, ergo they are not State employees and if there is a problem in a school the board of management must sort it out, but they get State pensions. There are similar issues with people on FÁS schemes and other things, who are fully funded by the Departments but told they are not State employees whenever there is an issue. They are paid by a sponsoring committee, although they do not get State pensions. People have their salaries permanently paid by the State but some qualify for a pension while others do not. I am a bit intrigued by the point.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This could create serious issues down the line. I believe there are people behind this man who have helped to raise the issue, which has been hidden for some time. We need to go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and get some serious information about it. Can it be put back onto the agenda for a couple of weeks' time?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. It is No. 727C.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I believe we will have to address this at some point in the future.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Another big category is the section 38 institutions funded by the health sector, as well as universities, which are not strictly State bodies but where all the conditions and pay and pensions are similar.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There are loads of examples, including people working in the community sector.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will present the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform with this report and we want a comprehensive response, not a one-pager. It should deal with all publicly funded bodies such as the section 38 and 39 bodies. There will be food for thought in it when it comes.

The next item is No. 728C, dated 28 July, from an individual regarding contractual arrangements made by Laois County Council. There is no address on it so we will note it. We are not asked to do anything on it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is the Chair sure about that?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will take it home and follow it up.

The next item is No. 729C, dated 27 July, from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, advising that John McKeon has been appointed Accounting Officer for the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, replacing Ms Niamh O'Donoghue. We note that.

The next item is No. 730, 1-3, dated 1 August from myself, attaching previous correspondence on the thoroughbred levy, for information purposes. We agreed at the last meeting to write to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and we have written to it. We await a response.

No. 733, dated 1 August, from the Irish Prison Service is in response to an information request by the committee on the appointment of a protected disclosure manager.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Chairman has skipped one item.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We took 731C a minute ago.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We are back to the greyhounds.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We moved it from C to B and dealt with it. It is correspondence, dated 2 August, from the chief executive officer of the Irish Greyhound Board enclosing information requested by the committee on the strategic plan and the television contract. We note and will publish that and people will be free to read it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It does not really correlate with some of the conversations we have had here but I will not take up the committee's time.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Take it up.

The next item is about protected disclosures in the Prison Service and I propose we send a copy to the individual who raised the matter with us. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 735 from myself, enclosing correspondence relating to the national paediatric hospital development board. The matter raised will be of real concern to many members and we should write to the board for a response to the issues and for an update on the board's work, including the financial position. We were going to follow this up by bringing them in before the summer but we held off. They seem to be moving ahead but a key element of the decision to locate to St. James's was that it was to be located at a university hospital, at a site with a maternity hospital. The plan was for the Coombe hospital to move ultimately to that site but, from what I am hearing, I cannot see it happening in 30 years' time. There does not seem to be the money to pay for the move of Holles Street to St. Vincent's, which will take a decade even if it does happen. Moving the Coombe will have to happen after that.

One of the pillars on which the decision was made was co-location with a maternity hospital, which is decades away. I just raise that point, although it probably does not come within our remit. We always said we wanted an update on its plans from the national paediatric hospital board but we held off earlier so we will follow through on that. When we get a response, we will decide how to deal with it then.

The next item, No. 736, correspondence dated 11 August, is from an individual regarding an appeal on a planning application. I propose that we write to the person and state that this matter does not fall within the remit of the committee.

No. 737 is correspondence from the Department of Education and Skills relating to information requested by the committee regarding the sale of lands at Clonkeen College, County Dublin. In its response to the Department, the Congregation of Christian Brothers confirmed that the lands in question have been sold, that it has signed and exchanged legally-binding contracts with the purchaser and that the transaction cannot be reversed. The correspondence further states that the decision by the Congregation of Christian Brothers, a private entity, to dispose of land owned by the congregation is a matter for the brothers and the Department is not privy to the detail of the contractual arrangements or to deliberations on why the lands in question were selected for disposal. The correspondence includes information regarding funding allocated to the college for the development of school facilities and states that the Department is not aware of any instances of sale of school lands for development purposes. I propose to publish this reply and to send a copy of the letter to the individual who raised the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 742, dated 18 August, is correspondence from the HSE enclosing an information note as requested by the committee regarding the older persons' services from the social care division of Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel, Clonmel. This can be forwarded to Deputy Mattie McGrath who wrote to the committee about the matter.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To be fair, that is out of date. The Minister for Health was there last week and announced a new range of plans for Cashel, which I welcome, although it will take a few years. The letter is out of date.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Cashel is not in Clonmel, Chairman.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That was my mistake. It is Cashel, County Tipperary. However, we will forward the letter.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I would be disappointed if Deputy Kelly was not more up to speed than the correspondent. The Deputy is on top of the job, which is good.

No. 745 is correspondence from an individual raising questions about payments from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the European fund for his herd of cattle. The secretariat has reviewed the letter the Department sent to the previous committee on this matter, which includes a history of compensation payments to the individual. I propose that we respond to the individual by enclosing a copy of the earlier correspondence and pointing out that it is not the intention of the committee to reopen the matter.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It is from 40 years ago. I am sure it is a nice housing estate now.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No. 746C is correspondence dated 24 August requesting that the committee review the events surrounding the shooting incident and attempted escape by a prisoner on 18 May 1988 in Portlaoise Prison, when a prison officer was shot at by the Irish Army. Does anyone wish to comment on this before I make my suggestion?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, this person feels very aggrieved. I do not see how, on any level, this committee can assist him in getting answers or the succour or comfort he seeks. I suggest that we write to the Minister for Justice and Equality and forward this correspondence to him. We must establish what the correct mechanism is, if there is one, for this person to make his case or to be heard. What happened is quite a story and involved quite a turn of events. I have met the individual who wrote this letter, as have other members of the committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am very sympathetic to his feeling that he was neglected or let down. We have to find the right mechanism for that to be dealt with, but I do not believe it is this committee.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I met the individual as well. Obviously, we should write to the Minister. Ironically, the Minister has spoken in the Dáil on this issue on past occasions over many years and expressed opinions on the fact that this gentleman needs solace and justice. There is no doubt in my mind, and I am sure others familiar with the case share these sentiments, that this chap has been treated extremely badly in respect of what happened to him. He has had no recourse. He was dismissed from the Prison Service after basically stopping an escapee from leaving the prison. The Minister for Justice and Equality was in the locality of Portlaoise recently and listed a number of those in the Prison Service who had done the State some service. Amazingly enough, Sean O'Brien's name was left out of the list which is, frankly, unbelievable. It is a fact that this gentleman stopped a prison escape.

It is not in the remit of this committee but, as we are all Members of the Parliament and as this is a case of natural justice, we must get it into the right forum. We must write to the Minister for Justice and Equality and the justice committee and ask them to investigate this, or try to get to a position where we can give Sean justice. He absolutely deserves it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will definitely write to the Minister for Justice and Equality. Will we write to the justice committee or are we going in two different directions?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let the two of them off. Let the justice committee decide if it wants to examine it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Write to the two of them.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will forward the correspondence to both and ask for detailed responses on how the matter was ultimately concluded. As has been stated, the individual concerned was ultimately dismissed from the Prison Service and it may not be unconnected to his act of bravery on that day.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask them to examine the matter and to notify us of progress. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 747, correspondence from an individual stating that members of the committee act outside their remit when questioning witnesses who appear before it. Members have seen the letter. We will note it.

Next is No. 750, correspondence dated 8 September on behalf of Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, Chairman of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport. The joint committee has decided to refer aspects of the Moran report for this committee's consideration, particularly certain audit, accounting and funding issues pertaining to the Olympic Council of Ireland. The Olympic Council of Ireland is not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and, therefore, is not within the remit of this committee. However, the Irish Sports Council which provides the funding is. In the first instance, I propose to circulate the report to members and if they wish to raise specific issues to be brought to the attention of the Irish Sports Council, we will write to it. This issue has been dealt with by an Oireachtas committee. Obviously, there are financial matters in the report and the Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport has referred it to us as part of its work. That committee has carried out its work on it. I do not know if we should jump into the topic. That committee has been dealing with it. We will circulate the report to members before we take any further action. We will hold over this item of correspondence to a future meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 751 is correspondence from the Department of Health responding to a request for a note on issues raised with the committee by an individual regarding several areas of the health system. The Department has communicated directly with the individual and a copy of the correspondence is enclosed. We note that.

No. 752 is correspondence, dated 31 August, from the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, responding to issues raised by Monaghan County Council with the committee regarding EirGrid. We will note the correspondence and forward it to Monaghan County Council. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 753 relates to an interim report on Stepaside Garda station. This is from Deputy Cullinane and we dealt with it during our earlier conversation.

No. 754 is from an anonymous correspondent regarding Waterford City & County Council. There are a number of accusations, most of them in general terms. I propose that we note the correspondence. We are not getting into that.

We are nearly finished. No. 757, dated 27 July, is correspondence from Deputy Marc MacSharry requesting the committee to examine the costs incurred to date by the liquidators of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to put a few matters on the record in this regard. The liquidation began on 7 February 2013.

At the time, control and oversight over remuneration for liquidators was governed by the Companies Act 1963, which also provided for scrutiny by a committee of inspection in the High Court. No committee of inspection has been established in respect of the IBRC or provided for in the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Act 2013. Ordinarily these committees of inspection are made up of shareholders and creditors and their function is to assist the liquidator with approval fees and legal actions and to attend meetings on an ongoing basis to review the progress of the liquidation. The role of the committee was further enhanced in the Companies Act 2014 and as a result most liquidators seek to ensure that a committee is appointed. Special liquidators for the IBRC have not done so. If there is a dispute with the liquidator on remuneration, for example, or on fees or things of that nature, an application can be made to the court to determine the matter. Two examples of that happening were the case concerning ESG Reinsurance Limited before Mr. Justice Kelly and the case concerning Mouldpro International Limited in 2012 before Ms Justice Finlay Geoghegan, as a result of which the liquidator's fees were reduced.

Sections 646 and 647 of the Companies Act 2014 provide that the basis of a liquidator's remuneration is to be agreed with the committee of inspection to which I referred earlier. Another section provides for challenges to liquidators' remuneration and provides for arbitration and so on in that regard. Again, this is missing in the case of the IBRC liquidation. Control and oversight and a mechanism to effectively challenge the cost of the special liquidators are also missing in this case. Consultation meetings behind closed doors on the issue of fees with officials from the Department of Finance are, to my mind, not sufficient.

Fees to the end of December 2016 were in the region of €225 million. While if the fees are broken down to hourly rates, they are based on reduced rates negotiated by NAMA for general professional fees - though NAMA has no function or role in this at all - the number of hours and the grades associated with the work being carried out are unknown. Based on parliamentary questions I have tabled, it would be my humble conclusion that there is really no oversight. The liquidators may well be paying themselves rock bottom in terms of actual fees per hour, but the number of hours and the amount of work being carried out would certainly be the greatest in Irish commercial history for a liquidation. I would say that it would compare unfavourably with some big international liquidations. In terms of the level of scrutiny, we do not have a committee of inspection or a route to challenge. I do not know why those elements were omitted or whether the Bill to establish the liquidation in 2013 just remained silent on them and the IBRC chose not to have a committee of inspection.

In the replies to the first round of parliamentary questions I circulated - and I sent more around this morning in which I sought further clarification on the first set of answers - it was stated that in 2016 there were eight meetings between the Department of Finance and the liquidators. In 2017, with costs rising, there were only three and a fourth is planned towards the end of this month. I specifically asked for a breakdown of the minutes of the meetings. Commercial sensitivity was given as the reason they could not be provided, yet in a standard liquidation those minutes would be available to a committee of inspection, to shareholders and to creditors. That is us, the people, albeit through the Minister, who owned the company. The replies also would not provide details of the grades of the people who are operating. Again, commercial sensitivity was cited. That too would be information which would be available to the company owners - in effect the people through the Minister.

It is very worrying that one of the parliamentary question replies said the Minister and the Comptroller and Auditor General have no role in this. I asked if any external parties or external State agencies were asked to assist the Department of Finance in the oversight of this matter, in challenging fees or in anything along those lines. The replies were silent on that issue, so we can assume that there is not any external help. We are told that the Comptroller and Auditor General has no role, the Department has no role and the Minister depends on quarterly reports on these issues issued and published by the IBRC.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy said the IBRC. He means the liquidator of the IBRC.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, the liquidator.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So he publishes a report.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It is KPMG. The target here - not that there is a target - is not KPMG. It is paying itself and doing its work as it is allowed to do. Effectively, however, it has been let off. It is paying itself from recoveries, work-outs and various things. Those fees are effectively box-ticking exercises for the Department of Finance. I worry that there is no mechanism to challenge these fees and that the level of oversight which would be available in a standard liquidation of, let us say Marc MacSharry Limited, through a committee of inspection and other means, does not apply in this case, yet it is ultimately the taxpayers' money.

So far, to the end of 2016, the fees total €225 million including VAT. It would be reasonable to assume that they will head towards €300 million by the end of 2017. If one applies a per annum rate into the future, it is reasonable to assume, if there are five to ten years left to run in this, that the fees would be heading very close to €1 billion, notwithstanding the 175 legal cases, two of which are the large and high profile Quinn cases. If any of those cases were to be lost we would looking at many hundreds of millions of euro or - pick a number - who knows?

Auto-pilot is a phrase that comes to mind in the context of how this is happening. Applying the basic accountancy duty of care to clients, I do not think that the taxpayer can be confident that this is being run correctly and with the level of oversight that is required. I know the practice is not to bring the Minister in except in extraordinary circumstances. I know we had him in on NAMA. I feel this is one of those occasions on which the Minister ought to be invited, along with the Secretary General and the liquidators themselves. We should certainly hear Mr. McCarthy's views as well.

This has been going on under the covers. Perhaps everything is done correctly and fantastically well for the least money possible, but perhaps not. In any event, given the amounts of money involved so far, the likely amounts going forward and the length of time involved, it would be reckless and foolish in the extreme if we did not involve ourselves in some way. If that requires legislation or an amendment to the 2013 Act then this committee should recommend that, following the questioning of the people I have outlined.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Prior to the liquidation, there was a very unhappy relationship between the Department of Finance and the IBRC. I would have thought that there would have been additional scrutiny or an impeccable oversight arrangement, given that these are distressed assets which are essentially owned by the Irish people. Prior to the liquidation, the Department of Finance was highly critical of some very large transactions. This is one area on which it is really important that we follow up. I thank Deputy MacSharry. It is very useful that he has set a framework for what we should do. It is the Minister who has the responsibility. The liquidator has a secondary responsibility in respect of this committee. Am I correct in that?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy say that again?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is the Minister who has the responsibility to this committee. Is that correct?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is not responsible to the Committee of Public Accounts, it is the Accounting Officer of the Department of Finance.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Secretary General. It is the Department that has responsibility to this committee rather than the special liquidator. Is that correct?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The liquidator is just a hired company.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but it is not the entity, the IBRC, that is responsible.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The IBRC in liquidation is not responsible. The only person representing the IBRC now is the liquidator. It is the IBRC in situ.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So it is only the Secretary General who is responsible.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The question is, as the Deputy said, it seems to be freewheeling away.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In effect no money is being paid out from the Department of Finance to KPMG. KPMG is remunerating itself from recoveries-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It has the cheque book.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----from the moneys coming in and so on. I would have to go back again to see how much we are losing on this whole liquidation and how much more are we going to lose as a result of it.

It clearly has to be done but the level of oversight is much less and poorer than, as I said, if Marc MacSharry was being liquidated with nothing only a computer in his office and €50,000 in debts.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We definitely need to follow through. I am not quite sure exactly but we need to give it a bit of consideration.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Let me give a couple of pieces of information. First, I have no audit role in relation to IBRC. I think that was what the Minister was referring to. However, I am doing a chapter which will be published next week on the costs of banking stabilisation, which is something we have gone back to a number of times. Obviously, the cost of the IBRC engagement to the State is there. Another point that the committee may wish to consider is that, if there is a surplus at the end from IBRC, it will accrue to the Exchequer.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Correct.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

If it does, it will appear as a transaction in the finance accounts for which the Secretary General of the Department of Finance is the Accounting Officer.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the Central Fund?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Central Fund of the Exchequer.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What if there is a shortfall?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

If there is a shortfall, it will be just a loss. I do not know what would happen if, let us say, the resources run out and there is no one to pay the liquidators.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We know well who will pay them.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is always somebody to pay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The public pays. This sounds very interesting. The Comptroller and Auditor General is saying that in his report, about which he cannot get into the detail until he publishes it later on in the month, there will be a chapter on bank whatever he called it. What did you call it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The costs of banking stabilisation. It is a kind of an update as of the end of 2016.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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IBRC etc. are all in there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They are all in there.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So the door is open.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the vehicle then for us to-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The door is open.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think so. With the best of respect to Mr. McCarthy, while that is a good body of work which will have to be looked at, this is something quite specific. From his own experience in private life or his knowledge of accountancy, because I do not recall and I missed it in the legislation, why would there be no committee of inspection?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have no-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Would he agree that it is unusual?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is certainly unusual. I think there is a clause - section 7(4) - which provides that the terms and conditions of appointment of a special liquidator shall be as fixed by the Minister. I think that is it. That is the limit of the oversight.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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My worry here is that obviously this is the biggest liquidation in history for Ireland and comparable, as I said, to many international ones. On the level of scrutiny and challenge that must be in play on an ongoing basis, it is clear from the answers that I got, and Mr. McCarthy will see the ones because the meeting had started when I circulated the other ones, that the Department of Finance is going through the motions. I should have mentioned it earlier but at one stage there were two rebates of €5 million and €3 million. If that was a negotiated write-down on a €225 million gross fee, it is 3%. It does not sound great to me for that amount of money. We also do not know the grades and number of hours per grade that were billed. We have the hourly rates. They were refused to me in the first round of questions and provided in the second, basically because the then Deputy, Lucinda Creighton, had been given that information before. However, initially they were not being given it to me. If it goes where I think it is going, and I might be reaching in saying this, we need a committee of inspection. I do not know if it is a role for the Comptroller and Auditor General but we do need an oversight body that will take a lot more of a hands-on approach. As I said, maybe the outcome will be that we are getting the best deal there ever was. However, with a clock ticking towards a billion or an unknown number and an unknown period of time, a quarterly report provided by IBRC, as authors paying themselves without significant challenge and knowledge on the part of the Department of Finance which is representing the people, is not sufficient.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's point is very clear.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In parallel with what Mr. McCarthy is doing, we need to press ahead.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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To get it in under the remit of the committee, given that it is not voted expenditure, all I am saying is that Mr. McCarthy's chapter opens the door for it to be within our remit. We can isolate the point the Deputy is making and deal with it separately. I just want to say that it will come within our remit once Mr. McCarthy refers to that topic-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is the point I was making. I have no information in the report around the specific issues that the Deputy raised-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that there is no role. However, we do not need Mr. McCarthy, with the best of respect to him, to bring it up. Here I am bringing it up. We can decide to press ahead notwithstanding what Mr. McCarthy will refer to that may or may not be linked to the specifics of my issue.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It would arise anyway with the Department of Finance accounts, I think, so the Deputy is quite correct there.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Finance and its Accounting Officer are the people who appointed KPMG after what has to be described as not a full public tender. KPMG is certainly capable of this kind of work - of course it is - but this was not a full public tender. The Department basically interviewed the four big firms and chose KPMG. I am not saying there is a major issue with that. I presume there is only a certain number of companies in the world that can handle stuff that big. However, this has implications for taxpayers' money and the Department of Finance officials are the go-to people. That Department, from the 15 or so questions I have asked, is not in control nor is it taking the level of supervisory and hands-on role that it ought to given the moneys involved. Whether there is a surplus, a deficit or whatever, there are implications for the taxpayer and we need to get on it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And we will. We are coming to our work programme and we are clear on this.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Most of us remember the particular night. We got the legislation about 10 p.m. and it went through about 5 a.m.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Whether this is an oversight is another issue, but there certainly was not adequate scrutiny of the legislation. Is is that the gap in the legislation should also be communicated to the Department of Finance from the Committee of Public Accounts and that it requires amendment?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That might be a conclusion. We cannot reach that conclusion before we do our work.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure it will be. I am not totally fluent in the Companies Act or the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Act. It is provided for in the Companies Act. If the IBRC Act is silent on it or specifically says there will not be a committee of inspection, then I presume the Companies Act takes precedence, which means it is up to the IBRC to set up a committee of inspection. Alternatively, it might specifically state that there will not be a committee of inspection. I need to check it. I do not know.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As we stand, the matter is on all four squares in the Department of Finance. That is where it stands now. It is under our remit. It will answer about these.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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As a starting point, we can certainly have the Secretary General of the Department in and take him through all of that and establish it for ourselves. I would be curious to know because Deputy MacSharry says they are getting four reports a year-----

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There are four reports a year that are published on the website, which really say nothing. They say the cost was X, this was recovered and these were the-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I think we could usefully explore as a starting point what is behind that and go through all of that. I would like to know whether we can pursue, and I think we should, the idea of having the Minister in on this issue as well. The Deputy has set out the quantum of moneys. It is massive.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will start with the Accounting Officer.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will start with the Accounting Officer.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On the work-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It will be published next week.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The annual report. One of the chapters in the annual report-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is to be published by Friday of next week.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Friday of next week.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is our bread and butter work for the year. I will move on to the next item. That is two months' of correspondence dealt with in two hours.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Sorry, and this is my own fault, but I missed a piece of correspondence earlier on which was from the Garda. It was part of a bigger pack of correspondence whereas I thought it was an individual piece of correspondence. I want to deal with it. It is part of a pack of correspondence that came in from the Garda.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Which number?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is 738B(iv). I apologise.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. There is a lot of correspondence.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is the piece relating to the Charleton tribunal co-ordination unit. Without wanting to take up the time of the committee, I have serious concerns about this unit and what it is being used for, its purpose, how it is being funded and the cost to the taxpayer. I tabled a number of parliamentary questions on its setting up.

It seems it was set up on the fly and subsequently got permission after the people were recruited. I would ask this committee to write to An Garda Síochána asking for a full explanation of how the people were recruited for this unit and also for a breakdown of all the costs to date.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. The next item in correspondence is the issue of reports and statements of accounts received since the last meeting. Arising from the minutes of the last meeting, we agreed to hold over the An Chéim accounts for 2016. I do not have them in front of me so we will hold it over. An Chéim is part of the Dublin Institute of Technology in that it is a subsidiary funded by the HEA in respect of shared IT systems for institutes of technology. Was An Chéim in the process of being wound up?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, it is being wound up.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When is that expected to be completed?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Very shortly. In fact, if memory serves me, it has been wound up.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We probably held it over because it was nearing wind-up. We will get the final set of wind-up accounts in due course.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There will not be wind-up accounts.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What will there be?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

These are the final accounts from An Chéim that the committee will be seeing, that is, the accounts for the 2015-2016 year.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Did it exist after year-end 2016?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That was the final account.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is the final account.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will note it and move on if that is okay.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, they are significant. A significant issue was disclosed in the statement on internal control, namely, a review of procurement of outsourced work in its final real year of operation in 2015. It was found that the mandate for the outsourced work was not clear and that the board of An Chéim was not kept fully informed in regard to it. The work was carried out without the involvement of HEAnet, which was taking over the functions, so, effectively, the systems were developed without consultation with the people who were going to be operating them. In addition, payments of €941,000 were made to the service provider during the year without an appropriate competitive tender process.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Was this a full subsidiary of Dublin Institute of Technology?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was, but it was like a shared service for all of the institutes of technology.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write to Dublin Institute of Technology asking for a detailed response on the issues.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They have set out the circumstances of the procurement in considerable detail in the statement on internal financial control, SIFC. If one likes, there is a fairly full report there, if the committee is minded to have a look at that. It is about three or four pages giving the circumstances and it explains the issue. If, at that stage, the committee wants to pursue further information, the DIT would be the first port of call.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the secretariat to specifically circulate that set of accounts to the members. Everything I have listed is in the Oireachtas Library but I will have that specifically circulated to members.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There were procurement issues when the DIT witnesses were in front of us.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Those items are referred to in the report. We will come back to it. We will ask for that to be specifically circulated.

We move to the next item. Many accounts have been received in the past two months so I will move as quickly as I can. Clear audit opinions have been received in respect of the 2016 accounts from Teilifís na Gaeilge, the National Oil Reserve Agency Limited, Enterprise Ireland, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, the National Council for Special Education, Industrial Development Agency Ireland, SOLAS, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the Western Development Commission, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, the Commission for Communications Regulation, the Health and Safety Authority, the Pensions Authority, the Office of the Pensions Ombudsman and the Road Safety Authority, RSA. Attention is drawn in the report on the RSA to non-competitive procurement of goods and services to the value of approximately €1 million.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On the RSA, which does an incredibly important job, reference is made to non-competitive procurement of goods and services in 2016 to the value of €1.1 million. This was an organisation that was barely able to operate at board level for a long period because it did not have the numbers on the board. Specifically, there are positions on that board which, for obvious reasons, are designated specialist positions relating to areas such as engineering, finance, etc., and many have been left vacant. A couple of the positions have been filled in the past few weeks or months. We need to correlate whether the procurement issues or any other issues relate to the fact that, effectively, we have a board that is barely functioning, despite it having a very good chairperson. We also need to discover whether this is having consequences. I use this as an example because, while it is not the only example, it is a particularly sensitive one in light of the organisation involved. Could we write to the RSA and ask it to explain whether the lack of board members in 2016 had any impact on its performance and the way it conducted its business?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. We will refer to the non-competitive procurement and ask for an explanation of that specific issue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we link the two?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will link the two. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We move to the next item. There have been clear audit opinions for the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, the Property Service Compensation Fund, the Citizens Information Board and the Public Trustee Account, which is the finance account for the State. The National Treasury Management Agency accounts also have a clear audit opinion and an overview of the NTMA accounts will be provided in a chapter of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2016.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That will be presented next week.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Next week there will be a chapter in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the NTMA. That annual account dealt with the administration account, the national debt account, the State Claims Agency account, the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, the Post Office Savings Bank Fund and the National Pensions Reserve Fund. The National Pensions Reserve Fund is to be dissolved after resolution of residual assets of €439,000 and the Dormant Accounts Fund will be included in the report on the accounts. That will come up as part of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report to be published next Friday, so it will be back as part of the work programme in that context. There are clear audit opinions for the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, the Credit Union Restructuring Board and the Credit Institutions Resolution Fund.

I believe the following body is listed in the work programme for other reasons. On Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, attention is drawn in the statement on internal financial control to non-competitive procurement of €5.2 million and weaknesses in the agency's oversight and monitoring of grants to outside agencies. I propose that we need to bring in Tusla, as was mentioned in our work programme.

The position of the St. James's Hospital board is clear, as is that of the Dublin Dental Hospital board. I want to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to do something for the committee. With regard to the St. James's Hospital board and the Dublin Dental Hospital board, and as we saw with the HSE, the accounts are prepared in accordance with accounting standards approved by the Minister. Can the Comptroller and Auditor General give us the schedule of the accounts he audits where such accounts are prepared in accordance with the standards and are also approved by the Minister in a way that may be different? We had the HSE before us previously. There are aspects of its accounts that would be in any other company's accounts but, because the Minister who sets up the accounts says that it does not include, say, its outstanding liabilities for clinical negligence in its accounts, that is not there. There are a whole lot of exceptions to proper, normal international accounting standards where the Minister can simply say, "You leave that out".

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I suggest that the Department be asked to produce that because it is its prerogative.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does it happen anywhere outside health?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Not really.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thought it might have been across the board.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is obviously the distinction between appropriation accounting and departmental fund accounts. On the other hand, almost all other bodies would be on a normal generally accepted accounting principles, GAAP, basis.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Those are the general accounting standards. The Comptroller and Auditor General is saying we have to write to the Secretary General of the Department of Health for a list of all bodies under its remit.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

And the accounting requirements that it sets.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where the accounts are drawn up not only in accordance with the standards.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I can give the committee a schedule of all the bodies that we audit and what the basis of accounting is. I can give it that as a starting point.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is what we are seeking. We shall see. There is no point in our reviewing accounts and thinking we have the full picture when there is a section in the legislation setting up that body which states that it does not need to show anything in its annual accounts that anybody would expect it to show. I want to see what we are missing - that is all that I am asking. Will the Comptroller and Auditor General provide the overall-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, I will give the committee an initial note.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The secretariat will work from there and we will send letters out.

The next item relates to clear audit opinions in respect of the Health Insurance Authority, the risk equalisation fund, the National Disability Authority, the Irish Blood Transfusion Service, the Medical Council, the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board - I think we said that we might talk to representatives therefrom - the Food Safety Authority, again, with accounting standards modified by the Minister, and the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, with accounting standards also modified at the Minister's direction. These are not the normal accounts one might see, things have obviously been excluded or included that one might not normally find in standard accounts.

There have also been clear audit opinions in respect of the Health Research Board-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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HIQA?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we are proposing to have representatives from HIQA come before us.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

HIQA is coming in next week.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Our friends from the Waterford Institute of Technology have just sent their 2015 accounts to us. Are they not fantastic? Two years later.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Progress.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write to them. Have we a date for the 2016 accounts? We gave them a roasting on that when they were here. We will write to them to ask for a date for when the 2016 accounts will be ready for audit.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

If members bear with me, I can tell them what we expect from-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Galway is in the same category.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

-----institutes of technology in a moment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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NUIG.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

With regard to the Waterford Institute of Technology, I expect that we will have completed the 2016 accounts by November.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What about NUIG?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

NUIG-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It has only just completed its 2015 accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

NUIG has actually been cleared for the end of September. Progress is being made.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Great. In other words, the third-level institutions got a little rap on the knuckles from us and are now smartening themselves up to get their accounts in at last.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is the last one on the list; I jumped the gun there. We will come to it in a second. The next one up is the Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is an issue there again in respect of the accounting for pensions.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is normal for a public-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Historically, the institutes of technology did not account for pensions because these were paid, first, by local authorities and, subsequently, by the Department of Education and Skills. Changes made in legislation now make the institutes responsible for the payment of pensions in the future. At present, however, they are still being paid by the Department. The Department has not resolved whether the institutes will need to account for them or whether the Department will continue to do so. It is something that is affecting all of the institutes this year.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is grand.

The next item concerns Athlone Institute of Technology and Limerick Institute of Technology and involves the same point. The final one is the National University of Ireland Galway. The 2015 accounts-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I just clarify something on that? The same thing is happening with local authorities throughout the country. Money is deducted for pensions. While this used to be retained locally, it is now submitted centrally. Where does the liability for the payment of pensions fall?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am relying on memory when it comes to local authorities, but there is a distinction. Pensions are normally paid on a pay-as-you-go basis; no fund is created. In the past, local authorities retained pension deductions from employees and this would have formed part of their general funding. Since the introduction of the public sector single pension scheme in 2013, however, the deductions are being taken in centrally.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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They essentially take in the moneys to pay them out in due course.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. They are being taken into Vote 12, I think.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On a pay-as-you-go basis, year by year.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There are different arrangements. Some contributions may be retained locally and some may be remitted centrally, depending on the numbers in each scheme. I refer here to the 2013 scheme and the previous scheme.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And they are remitted centrally since the introduction of the single pension scheme.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, that is my recollection.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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And then payment of the pension is funded centrally.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They will all be funded centrally in any event. Ultimately, it will go through the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government to the local authorities.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It will be local government funding.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It will form part of the authorities' funding.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The next item is the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies - clear report; the Higher Education Authority - clear report; and the 2015 accounts for Waterford and Wexford ETB. There is also a review of their internal controls, which is out of date.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can we ask for a schedule from all of the education and training boards, ETBs? Just a single page of which boards have submitted 2015 and 2016 accounts and where they are at with this.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are nearly there but we will get the list.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand that the Comptroller and Auditor General is completing a report on the Kildare and Wicklow ETB.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have not yet decided to do so. The audit of the Kildare and Wicklow ETB is still ongoing. We have raised matters with both the ETB and the Department, and when these have been addressed we will complete the audit.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So issues have arisen as part of the current audit.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It would be helpful to get that spreadsheet.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General could include the institutes and the universities - all of the third-level institutions. He might give us the full list.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am due also to complete a report on the timeliness of all accounting. The ETBs and the third-level institutions are specifically in there. The universities are in there.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Next up is the Cork ETB - clear audit opinion. The final one is InterTradeIreland - clear audit opinion. These are noted.

The next item is the work programme. Last year, we completed all of the chapters in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report as well as three special reports on NAMA, Templemore - the interim report - and third level. During the summer we lined up a number of meetings for the first few weeks. The Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report will be out next Friday so we will not have it by next Thursday. At our meeting on 5 October, we will have the opportunity to discuss this report and identify our priorities and, depending on what is in the report, decide which organisations we need to bring in first. Whomever we decide to bring in will need a bit of time in advance. In that context, I suggest a few meetings in the next month so as to show them the road. HIQA will be coming before us and IDA Ireland is up the following week. We are making provision for Mr. Tony O'Brien and for the acting Garda Commissioner to appear next Thursday if we have not received the report by tomorrow. We will have to squeeze that time in.

I asked the Comptroller and Auditor General to name the biggest outfit he audits that has not appeared before us in quite a while. Transport Infrastructure Ireland is a big outfit, and there is not a constituency in Ireland that does not have a view on something to do with transport. A lot of people, then, will want to talk to its representatives. Tusla keeps cropping up. It cropped up again today and I think we need to talk to it. With regard to the HSE, we held off dealing with section 38 and 39 organisations last year but I think we need to go back to them now. We do not need to spend the year dealing with them but we have not dealt with that matter in a while. I propose that we talk to representatives from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment on the 9 November and deal with local government on the 16 November. That will take us up to the 26 November. So we will meet representatives from HIQA, IDA Ireland, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, Tusla and the HSE - on section 38 and section 39 organisations - in the period up to the end of November.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Agreed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We may decide, after seeing the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, to move the meetings for the beginning of November. We have them set up, however, and the organisations involved are on stand-by. We may well proceed with them but something else may come up as a result of the report.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Agreed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When we get the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, we can, depending on its contents, try to pick the organisations we want to deal with first.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am delighted that the section 38 and section 39 organisations are on the agenda. That is a very important piece of work that we have to do. However, I wish to again raise the issue of nursing homes and the charges relating thereto. I raised this matter months ago and I am raising it again. I am very concerned at the manner and behaviour of elements in this sector. There is a role for us in terms of scrutiny. I accept that some of the nursing homes are private entities and I know that this is a mixed sector. I would, however, like the committee to find a way to address the issues of proper regulation, accountability and transparency in that sector.

I am not making a concrete proposal on it but it is by way of reminding the Chairman that-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The fair deal scheme funds a lot of it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----we had agreed that this was a matter of public concern. While we have been in recess the public discourse on this sector has certainly continued and I think public concerns have remained. In fact, they might be even more heightened now and I think there is a role for us in examining that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As most of these nursing homes are funded-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The fair deal scheme.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----substantially through the fair deal scheme, the operation of the scheme is probably the generic heading.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know we cannot do everything and I do not disagree with anything on the list but, rather than just making a general commitment that it is important and we will come to it, I would like the committee to start tying down a date.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Next week we do not need to discuss the work programme but the following week, having seen the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report, we will come back to the work programme again. Anything people feel should be on it will then be communicated to the secretariat for consideration at the meeting on this day two weeks, when we will revisit the matter. We have a number of meetings set up just to get business moving.

That concludes our consideration of the work programme.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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By whom? The Department?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The secretariat will follow that up for the Deputy straight away-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The secretariat will contact the Department.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is referring to the status of the review.