Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality and her officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates in the Justice group of Votes for 2017 - Votes 16, 20 to 25, inclusive, and 41. The format of the meeting will be that we will go through the Revised Estimates Vote by Vote. In the case of Vote 24 - Justice and Equality, we will proceed programme by programme. The Minister will begin by making an opening statement. We will then move to the Votes and programmes which I will call individually before opening the floor to members of the committee to ask questions on the various subheads. They will be called in the order in which they indicate.

I propose to take Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána - first being the most substantive in terms of expenditure. The reason for the short delay in starting was we were being briefed by the Oireachtas financial scrutiny team, the input of which we welcome. Members have been furnished with an additional specific briefing document prepared by the team on Vote 20 to which I encourage them to refer.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality to make her opening statement.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman.

I welcome the opportunity to present the Revised Estimates for 2017 in respect of the justice Vote group to the committee. Members will be aware that it is made up of eight different Votes, with a combined gross expenditure allocation of just over €2.72 billion in 2017. That is an increase of 3.6% on the 2016 allocation of €2.482 billion which was inclusive, at that point, of a gross Supplementary Estimate increase of €24 million. The gross expenditure Estimate for the Garda Síochána vote is €1.612 billion, which amounts to 64% of the funding for the entire Vote group. The Estimate for 2017 is further increased by the additional amount of €9.344 million, carried forward from 2016 under the capital carryover provisions. The high proportion of the resources allocated to the Garda Vote outlines our commitment to having that strong and visible presence throughout the country in order to make sure that we have community engagement and reassurance and that we deter crime.

Part of our goal at present, which is very important and has been supported by this committee, is the wish to increase the overall Garda taskforce. The commitment is to increase the number 21,000 by 2021. That comprises 15,000 Garda members, 2,000 Reserve members and 4,000 civilians. That reflects a commitment in the programme for Government. In the Estimates going forward for this year, we have the money provided to fund 800 Garda recruits, 500 civilians - 300 of whom we have already advertised for - to support the wide-ranging reform in An Garda, and for 300 members of the Garda Reserve. There has been a review of the Garda Reserve and Deputies will probably have heard those advertisements on the radio and seen them in the newspapers for the recruitment of 300 members of the Garda Reserve.

Obviously resources alone are not enough. There are many factors. We have been discussing some in the last few days and will continue to discuss them. We want to ensure that An Garda Síochána is fit for purpose and can deal with the very serious gang-related crime, which everyone on this committee is very familiar with. We need a very comprehensive range of measures to make sure that the best response possible is available. In addition to the legislative measures, I heard this week - Deputy Jim O'Callaghan is probably familiar with this - that parts of the burglary legislation that allow for consecutive sentencing are in place now and can be used by the courts at their discretion. Extra powers to the Criminal Assets Bureau were important as well for handling the proceeds of crime. We have seen quite a bit happen in that area. The second Special Criminal Court has also been established and has been hearing cases since May.

We also have, and I think it is very obvious, the establishment of the dedicated armed support unit for the Dublin metropolitan region. That is operating on a 24-7 basis, providing appropriate armed support as required. Since its inception, the armed support unit has been involved in high-visibility patrols. I think people are well aware of that. It has been involved in checkpoints and in various other difficult hostage situations, suicide incidents, executing high-risk warrants and high-risk escorts. Over the months, it has been involved in a number of successes and has been associated with a total of 248 serious incidents in a three-month period. Those incidents include, but are not limited to, aggravated burglary, assault, possession of or discharging a firearm, false imprisonment, immigration offences, possession of drugs for sale and supply, possession of an offensive weapon and robbery from an establishment or from a person. The new armed support unit is out protecting the community. We also have the Garda special crime taskforce in the Dublin metropolitan region, under the drugs and organised crime bureau. That has been established to augment the response to organised crime at a local level through concentrated policing, and through a multi-agency approach to targeting the proceeds of crime.

The legislative measures which I have just mentioned which we put in place, targeting burglars and seizing the proceeds of crime, are equally effective in a rural context. The measures are not only for urban areas. Rural communities will also benefit from the significant injection of policing resources provided by the Government and the anti-crime drive which has been co-ordinated under Operation Thor, which is continuing. Special targeted patrols are carried out with the assistance of Garda national support services against criminals who are committing crime in regions, including a recent focus on the use of motorways by criminal gangs to disrupt them if they are trying to go into a rural area to commit crime and then get away. All of these Garda initiatives operate alongside ongoing community policing measures, including problem-solving with local communities and ongoing liaison with households in providing crime prevention advice and assistance to victims of burglary. Gardaí in local areas, as all members of this committee will be aware, and I see myself every week, are involved in working with neighbourhood groups and setting up neighbourhood watch and community alert groups throughout the country. These are important supports for a local community and I see gardaí in my own area helping local estates to set up Neighbourhood Watch groups, which I think are a very effective way of ensuring that estates are safe.

There is a capital allocation of €98 million available to the gardaí in 2017. That is underpinning expenditure on ICT, which will be in excess of €35 million and expenditure on buildings, which will be in the region of €60 million. Deputies will be familiar with the three headquarters which will all be finished this year. Those are in Kevin Street, Dublin 8, Galway and Wexford. They will be completed in the course of this year. Under the Government’s capital plan, €46 million will be invested in a modern, effective and fit for purpose Garda fleet. I am sure Deputies can see that the huge investment that has been made is obvious when they go around the country and see the various new vehicles that are being used. In the two-year period 2014 to 2016, just under €30 million has been spent on replacement and new vehicles for the Garda fleet. That has been an important investment by the Government, as well as the ICT that I mentioned, which is not going to be done overnight but for which there is a programme of action. It is the first time that we have had a committee working between the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána.

There is a major issue with the interoperability of databases internationally. I met the Commissioner, Mr. Julian King recently about that. We had a very detailed discussion about the interoperability of databases and the need for Ireland to be fully up to speed on the Schengen Information System II. We are working hard on that, since we are behind other European countries. There is a new plan at European level for an even more sophisticated sharing of databases. That needs to be a priority and I have emphasised that again and again to An Garda Síochána.

I published the terms of reference for the new commission yesterday. We have had detailed discussion on that in the Dáil so I will not spend time on that. The Vote to the Policing Authority has a gross Estimate of over €2.7 million, which provides for the running costs. That will be kept under review as the authority phases up to its full staffing complement of 35. We have said that if additional resources or expertise are necessary, they will be given. The justice and equality Vote has a gross Estimate provision of just over €444 million, broken down into five separate programmes with 60 separate subheads, reflecting the Department’s strategy, but also the complexity of the Department and the wide range of areas that the Department has responsibility for. I will briefly mention the various programmes and can go into more detail if Deputies would like me to. The first is leadership in and oversight of justice and equality policy, and delivery. That includes the Garda Ombudsman Commission, the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner and the Charities Regulatory Authority. Deputies will be aware that the Charities Regulatory Authority is now doing what I consider really excellent work, which is going to be really important in building up confidence in the charity sector again. We know there have been very disturbing cases where charities were not operating the way they should have been. That has dented confidence in the sector. The Charities Regulatory Authority is now taking complaints from the public, investigating them, and now has a very good process and board in place and is getting on with that work.

On the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner, there are increasing issues around the mix of data protection and privacy, and new legal frameworks are coming into place in May 2018.

A new e-privacy regulation is also proposed. This area, and any necessary legislation, will be an increasing focus of the work of this committee. In recognition of this, there is a 59% increase in the funding allocation for the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. This is important in light of the challenges in this area as referenced in the report published yesterday by the Data Protection Commissioner.

Programme B - A Safe and Secure Ireland - includes funding for front-line support offices such as Forensic Science Ireland, the Probation Service, services to victims of crime, including the domestic violence agencies, and for the State pathology agencies. This programme also includes provision for crime prevention measures to support Community Alert and Crimestoppers. Deputies may be aware that a new budget line of €1 million is being provided this year for increased CCTV coverage. I am particularly pleased that it has been possible to allocate €6 million in capital funding to accelerate construction of the new Forensic Science Laboratory to be located in Backweston in County Kildare. This should allow enabling works to commence in 2017. This is a very necessary facility, construction of which, as I said, it is hoped will commence this year.

The budget for COSC is also provided for under this programme, including the media campaign around domestic violence. I recently had a meeting with the stakeholders in this area and we are in ongoing discussion with them in regard to roll-out of the programme over the next few years.

Programme C provides funding for the Legal Aid Board, the Magdalen fund and the costs associated with commissions and special inquiries.

Programme D deals with the migrant integration policy, which was published a few weeks ago.

Programme E deals with the immigration, asylum and citizenship system, including funding for the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, of €64.9 million and €66.6 million in respect of asylum seekers accommodation for this year. The Prison Vote is €327 million, plus an additional €2.833 million in unspent capital. The Public Appointments Service launched a recruitment campaign for prison officers last year. This was the first such campaign since 2008. It is estimated that 80 new recruit prison officers will commence training this year and that the number of recruits in training will increase to over 200 in 2018. This will allow the Prison Service to keep pace with expected developments. There is also a capital provision for continued improvement of the prison estate, including major redevelopment work at Limerick and Portlaoise prisons, which is badly needed, and refurbishment works at Wheatfield, Cloverhill and Castlerea prisons.

Funding for the Courts Service amounts to approximately €140 million. We all know the importance of supporting the development of new courthouses, including in relation to IT infrastructure in light of the ever increasing use of technology in our courts to ensure speedy access to justice. In regard to the new courthouses, under a €22 million public private partnership four courthouses are being constructed in Drogheda, Letterkenny, Limerick and Wexford and substantial refurbishment and extension works are being carried out to historic courthouses in Cork, Mullingar and Waterford. This work is expected to be completed by the end of this year. The additional capital provision in 2017 relates in the main to once-off VAT payments associated with the PPP contract, ICT fit-out costs for the new buildings and the part year payment of the annual charge for the PPP. Additional payroll funding for staff is also provided.

Vote 25 deals with the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, which is an independent body. Its allocation has been increased this year by €300,000 to provide for additional staff to enable it to carry out its important work. The Property Regulation Authority has a gross budgetary allocation of €28 million, of which payroll accounts for approximately 84% of expenditure. The Valuation Office has a gross allocation of 11.3 million. This office became part of the justice group for the first time in 2016, having transferred from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform Vote Group. It is expected that following the enactment of the relevant legislation the Property Regulation Authority, the Valuation Office and Ordnance Survey Ireland will merge to form a new single agency. My Department recently completed a key building block of this merger with the implementation of a national mapping agreement to provide open access for the public service to OSI's mapping products and services. Multiple funding lines across Departments and Offices have been consolidated into a single line of funding. Following this merger, the public will have access to a better service.

As the committee is aware, the justice and equality sector is very broad, with many dimensions, but we were successful in securing significant additional funding in 2017. I look forward to hearing members' views and to answering any questions they may have.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for her opening statement. The committee is more than aware of the breadth of issues it has to address under this Vote. We will commence with Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána. I ask members to indicate at the commencement of their contribution the particular subhead they wish to address.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Tánaiste and her officials to the meeting. I apologise but I do not know the subhead under which the issues I wish to raise arise but I am sure the Tánaiste will be able to locate the required information relatively quickly. The overall Vote for the Department has been increased by 4.7% this year. In regard to Garda vehicles, 200 were replaced in 2014; 493 in 2015; 500 in 2016 and 350 in 2017. I appreciate that for a number of years there were issues with budgets and as a result there was probably a backlog of vehicles that had to be replaced but, having caught up with the number of vehicles that had to be replaced across the fleet, is there an optimal number in terms of vehicle replacements annually and where are we at in that regard?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been unprecedented investment in the Garda fleet since the economy began to turnaround. There is a slight decrease in investment this year but this is due to the fact that we brought forward some of the investment to the end of 2016. The actual expenditure on new and replacement vehicles over the period 2013 to 2016 was in the region of €40 million. Expenditure in this area in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 was €10 million, €10.8 million, €8.9 million and €10 million. Average expenditure in this area between 2013 and 2016 was €10 million per annum as compared to an average of €1.6 million between 2009 and 2011. A huge amount of new stock was needed because of a lack of investment. Up to this point, we have been replacing old stock with new stock.

The capital plan from 2016 to 2021 provides for an investment of €46 million. That is based on the numbers of new staff that need to be brought in. We will have an increase in the numbers of gardaí, civilians and reserves. The fleet needs have to be taken into account by reference to that as well. Based on the expected replacement rate and the increasing demands, we have worked out a figure of €46 million for the period from 2016 to 2021. It does vary from year to year, of course, depending on the age of vehicles.

The Deputy is quite right in saying that we should get to a point at which we are replacing a vehicle when it reaches a particular age or mileage. Then we will not have the huge backlog of very old fleet. It has made things very difficult and, in some instances, there was not even fleet available, which was really serious. The very least we have to do is invest in a suitable fleet if we expect to have effective and efficient policing. That is the amount we expect to spend over the next five years. I can give the Deputy some further statistics. Having had this investment, 64% of the fleet is now less than four years old and one in five vehicles is less than one year old. When this Government came into office, in the region of 89% of the fleet was older than four years and only one vehicle in 50 was less than one year old. I can sent a more detailed breakdown to the committee. The impact of the investment is clear. The projected investment will mean a younger fleet and better availability for police. Investment in the fleet had effectively stopped, which was obvious to everyone. It had a huge impact on morale as gardaí did not have appropriate vehicles to do their work.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very welcome and certainly noticeable that the vast majority of the vehicles are less than four years old. I would highlight in particular the high-speed response units. I have predominantly seen traffic and armed response units but I am sure there are others. They are not just a morale booster for the gardaí themselves but also for the public. However, I notice that 31% of vehicles across the fleet are over six years; that is still a fair glut. The figure I have in front of me indicates that only 5% of vehicles are between four and six years old. While 64% of vehicles are less than four years old, it does appear that the majority of the remainder are over six years.

I will give the Minister an example. There is a squad car outside Malahide Garda station on most mornings when I pass that is 11 years old. They have brand new vehicles and other support vehicles but, while the vast majority are new or relatively new, the four to six year age bracket is at 5% while I have a figure of 573 vehicles over six years old. Those are squad cards, marked or unmarked. I would have a slight concern about the reliability of those vehicles. They tend to have higher mileage. I have had this discussion with the Minister before. It must be noted that there have been remarkable improvements in the age profile of the fleet. That is just a general point.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why it is necessary to continue this investment programme. They are large amounts. That is why we are putting in €8 million per year into the fleet over the years I have mentioned. It is an essential part of doing the job and I am pleased that we have the money to make that investment. It is a key component of policing. The fleet is critical. The Deputy is right to point out that there is more to be done.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the Minister's response. Could I have a general comment from her on the GoSafe contract and its performance?

According to figures I was reading yesterday, there has been a reduction in the air support budget for An Garda Síochána, namely, the two Garda helicopters. Perhaps I misread the figures. Could the Minister address that and outline whether the replacement of those aircraft will be budgeted for? Could the Department provide information to me or the committee on the number of deployments on the fixed wing aircraft allocated to An Garda Síochána? What is its general usage and will it be scheduled for replacement in the near future?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will provide the deployment figures to the committee. I do not have them now. The fixed wing aircraft does need replacement. It is one of the areas we have highlighted for consideration in the capital review. It will have to take its place among all of the other priorities. Obviously, safety and ensuring that it continues to be fit for purpose is the key factor.

In respect of GoSafe, the Deputy will be aware that there was a new contract for the provision and operation of a safety camera network. That was announced in August 2016. The contract was awarded following a public procurement competition. The contract for the safety camera service is with Road Safety Operations Ireland, trading as GoSafe. The new safety camera contract is an agreement between the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Commissioner and Road Safety Operations Ireland. It is for six years with an option to extend for a further 12 months. The last contract expired in November 2016. There were some transitional arrangements that took us forward. A review of the safety camera service was carried out prior to the end of the current contract, culminating in the recommendation in 2015 that arrangements be put in place to immediately re-tender for this service. The review was conducted by the safety camera project board, comprising representatives of the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Road Safety Authority, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, An Garda Síochána and my Department. An evaluation committee was established to evaluate the tenders. The evaluation committee included representatives from the Office of Government Procurement, the Garda, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Transport Infrastructure Ireland and was chaired by the Department of Justice and Equality. Advice was given.

The principal objective of the road safety camera network is to change driver behaviour, making roads safer, rather than to generate revenue. It is about safety. GoSafe is paid based on a fixed, hourly rate for the number of hours of surveying and monitoring. There is no financial incentive for GoSafe in increased detection rates. That is an important point. The new safety camera contract will be funded from traffic fixed charge notice income as is the case with the existing contract.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps the Minister covered my other question and I missed it - the point in respect of the age profile of the helicopters.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The helicopter replacement plan is in the capital review as well. I am sure it is something the committee will want to return to once we have had the mid-term capital review but they are both in for replacement.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a minimum number of hours in the GoSafe contract for the operator to perform? What is that figure?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is 7,500 per year.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Tánaiste for coming into the justice committee. My first question is on salary, wages and allowances. I welcome the pay increases, particularly for new garda recruits, who are on disgraceful entry rates. It was a very regressive decision by the previous Government. What are the Minister's projections for this moving forward? With new negotiations ongoing, does the Minister expect there to be an additional allocation in the next period? Can she give any indication on salary, wages and allowances? I understand the increase relates to the agreement between the Government and the force. Can the Minister give an indication of future projections?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Provision has been made for the increase as a result of the negotiations towards the end of last year. It is built into our budget. I do not expect to come back on that. There was an agreement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and that is included. There are technical adjustments needed to deal with that but the answer to the Deputy's question is that this is the allocation and we are not expecting to have to come back. There will be savings under various subheads as there always are. There will be a mid-year review on technical adjustments so we have the income stream to deal with the expected and planned increases in the Garda pay budget.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can the Minister explain the reduced allocation for travel and subsistence compared to last year?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Last year there was a Supplementary Estimate to deal with the particular pressures of last year and the new initiatives that were being undertaken. That was to do with the increased costs at that time. Our projection for this year is a little less.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One thing we have seen over the last number of weeks is the importance of continual professional development within the force and trying to upskill many of the existing members across all levels of management from the top right down to the bottom. Can the Minister explain why the allocation for training and development and incidental expenses has gone down quite drastically compared to last year?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will check it for the Deputy. There is a continual emphasis on training.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the Estimates we are seeing a big reduction.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, it may well be to do with incidental expenses. I will check it for the Deputy. Ongoing training and supervision is a high priority as per the inspectorate's report. For example, new recruits coming out of Templemore are not in the position that was identified in the O'Higgins report in which they did not have supervision and support when they left and were dealing with cases on their own. There has been a change to that. There is an increased focus on professional development.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister give an indication of the split between incidental expenses and training and development?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I will get it for the Deputy now. Road traffic expenses are €4.5 million and training is €886,000.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was it last year?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was €1.6 million.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So has training and development been halved this year?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to come back to the Deputy with an exact explanation for that.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are seeing a rhetorical focus on training and development yet there seems to be a significant reduction in the initial gross allocations so it is important it is clarified in the context of the budgetary allocation. It would not be a good signal to middle management or to new recruits that we are halving a potential training and development allocation for them. I hope it is clarified.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will come back to the Deputy with details on that because I want to make the point to the Deputy that the €886,000 is the same as what we started off with last year in June. If one looks at the figures, it was €886,000 in 2016. For particular operational reasons in the middle of the year extra money was made available. We have now gone back to the original. We have kept it the same. It has not been reduced but there was that extra Estimate at Estimates time. There was extra money put in. I will come back to the Deputy with details of the training that is being done and explain it but I want to be very clear there is an ongoing focus on training.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has to be reflected in the budgetary allocation. It should be increased year on year. If there is an apparent political focus on training and development in the Garda, it should be reflected in an increased budgetary allocation. Even if it is the same, as far as I am concerned, it is not good enough.

The Minister will come back to the committee on that point.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Training is reflected in subhead A1. The training of recruits is captured by that figure. There is a very significant input with the new recruits. I will come back to the Deputy on the detail of that. I will get the budgetary explanation for the increase in the middle of last year. It is a stable figure if one compares the beginning of the year but there was an extra allocation for particular reasons and I will come back and give the committee a detailed explanation for that. I assure the Deputy there has not been a reversal in the training situation. It is important to know.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That needs to be reflected in figures presented to us.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not certain of it now.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will get the Deputy the explanation of that figure. I will do that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Chambers has raised a very important issue. I can still hear the echo of the president of the AGSI, who was on our screens over the past 24 hours, making the point that there is insufficient investment in training of existing, serving members of the Garda Síochána.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The fact there is uncertainty around this is a significant concern for the ordinary rank and file in An Garda Síochána. They should be presented with increased allocations for what is a significant issue for them. We are trying to improve supervision, management ability and capacity within the force and as of now we are not sure about the specific subhead and the allocation for training and development. It should be clarified for them and for the members of the force. As the Chairman said, it is a significant issue for them.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I could just say-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept the Minister prioritises it but she must reflect it in an explanation for it.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The point I am making to the Deputy - it is a question of how it is presented here - is that training is captured in a lot of different places in the budget. I will come back to the committee with a description of what is actually happening. It is captured in different places in the budget. Under this head-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where exactly is it captured?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The expenses, for example, include expenses for travelling to various courses. That is only one element of training. There is a very significant emphasis on in-service and ongoing training. We were discussing the Garda fleet earlier and I spoke about recruitment. In the same way that recruitment and the Garda fleet were impacted by the lack of investment due to the economic crisis, this is about rebuilding training. Of course, the associations have spoken about it.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But we need to see that in our figures, and it should be-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sure. We can capture it in a different and descriptive way.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Figures-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just one last comment from the Chair on this before I return to Deputy Chambers. Is that only in terms of in-service and ongoing training? I remember very well what the spokeswoman said. It is even in respect of awareness of the law. This is absolutely incredible. It really is not about new recruits. It is certainly about in-service training and upskilling at every level through the force. I want to emphasise what Deputy Chambers has been-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a key point. I agree.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department should capture these figures across the various sections as a separate heading in any future Estimate presented to the committee. We are not being presented with a clear picture of the specific allocation and priority. For example, pay and allowances are captured as one. The same should be the case with training and development if they really are being given the priority that has been claimed.

I wish to move on to the cost of clothing and accessories. An issue for ordinary rank and file gardaí is that this was undermined in previous budgetary allocations. They find it difficult to get the clothing and accessories that they require to meet their work needs. There has been a reduction since 2015. What is the explanation?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Last year, we started off with an allocation of €2.764 million. We added €1.736 million, bringing it to approximately €4.5 million. This year's Estimate is €3.764 million, which is an increase of €1 million on last year's initial Estimate. Of course, the expenditure will vary depending on the needs outlined by An Garda Síochána. One has to be conscious that priorities change. We depend on the Garda's assessment of needs. Last year, extra investment of almost €2 million was needed and made. There are plans for a new uniform and increased expenditure in 2018. A minus allocation does not necessarily mean that something is being given less priority. In some instances, it means that the need has been met.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has not in some cases.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But it has in others and, therefore, one does not need to continue expending in that regard. The need is being met through the extra €1 million.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My final two questions are on the key outputs and overall metric of the targets that are built into the Estimates. I am surprised that there has been no determination of the number of overtime hours incurred by Operation Thor, which is the codename for the operation that is intended to address the burglary crisis of recent years. The operation worked effectively in many communities and numerous criminals were targeted and caught. It had a positive effect on crime rates. However, we are now in April and the number of overtime hours is yet to be determined. Why is that the case? Perhaps the Tánaiste will answer this question before I move on.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will provide some information. The continuation of Operation Thor has been funded into 2017 and it is understood that a similar number of overtime hours to those in 2016 will be allocated. However, this is a matter for the Garda Commissioner in terms of operational priorities.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can she not determine what the priority and allocation are?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was published in December. More than 269,000 overtime hours were allocated to Operation Thor in 2016. It might be of interest to the committee to note that overtime expenditure on Operation Thor for the first two months of this year is in the region of €1.115 million. Operation Thor has provided a swift return on the Government's investment in Garda resources. This is reflected in the official recorded crime statistics published by the CSO, which show a reduction. Operation Thor has been a success. There has been concentrated police activity throughout the country as a result, with 67,000 targeted checkpoints nationwide and 4,000 arrests connected to a range of offences linked to burglary, including handling stolen property, possession of firearms and drug offences.

This is an operational matter. The Commissioner is using the required overtime for Operation Thor. She will make her projections for the rest of this year shortly. I imagine that she is considering the range of priorities that she has to meet and deciding on those. Presumably, she will revert to us with her projections for Operation Thor for this year.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is this Deputy Chambers's final question?

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I wish to note something about the output metrics. Overall, it is important that we be careful with them. Many of these metrics, while linked to budgetary allocations, revolve around the ongoing crisis. How its resolution is managed politically and by senior management will determine whether public opinion, perception and satisfaction levels improve.

A matter that relates to the Department is affecting many people who are seeking jobs, namely, Garda vetting. Work on e-vetting has been progressed in several areas, but there must be improvement this year. What can the Tánaiste do from a budgetary perspective to ensure that the vetting office handles applications as expeditiously as possible? In particular, this has affected students seeking summer jobs. I know people who have had to wait eight weeks to start work, which affected their ability to work during the summer. The Tánaiste needs to priority this matter in her communications and ensure that it is funded properly and applications are turned around as quickly as possible.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everyone will acknowledge that there has been a sea change in vetting and e-vetting. Vetting has been successful. I often receive queries from Deputies and others about particular vetting applications. When I make inquiries, I inevitably find that the applicants need to provide more information, have lived abroad for a number of years or have not applied via the e-system. The waiting time is now two to three weeks. By any criteria, that is good. We have invested significant resources in Tipperary and extra personnel have been assigned there in recent years. People have suggested that vetting does not need to be redone, but that carries risks where people have changed jobs. The office is getting through extraordinary numbers and a large amount of vetting is being done. It is part and parcel of the kind of society that we live in that this is necessary. The numbers are in the millions.

I take the Deputy's point, in that it is important that people not be inhibited in taking up jobs and that we have an efficient and effective system, but there have been major improvements. Significant moneys and personnel have been invested in this.

The target for 2017 is good, with 95% of all applications to be dealt with through e-vetting. As such, the majority of cases should be handled quickly. The previous target was 80% within five working days. We are watching the targets and trying to improve on them. They have been successful.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I call the next speaker, I have to give members a heads up. We have 20 minutes left with seven sections to be discussed apart from the Garda Vote. We will have to run over time but a joint committee meeting is scheduled which other committee members will expect to attend. I ask members to be as precise as possible with their questions and, equally, I ask the Minister to be precise and quick with her replies please.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the questions I was going to ask does not even come under this heading but that pinpoints a problem where 64% of the budget goes to the Garda, yet there are other substantial expenditures relating to Garda oversight and accountability which are also a strain on the justice budget. I refer to the cost of mismanagement and how that is reflected. An increase of slightly in excess of €1 million has been scheduled for compensation in programme A. Is this compensation for the fixed charged notice cases? If so, only €76 per case is being provided. If not, why is not included and where is the figure reflected?

Second, in these cases, the compensation should not only address the work foregone by people and the award given to them but also the loss of Garda hours going to court and administering that. How is that reflected, given there is a cost of that mismanagement?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not reflective of the recent controversy because those cases have to go back, in the first instance, to the District Court and then they have to go to the Circuit Court. People who have been affected had to be written to by a date in early April. They do not have to appear in court but that will be dealt with. The question of compensation has clearly not been determined at this point. We have to wait to see how the courts deal with many of these cases before there can be an estimate, if there is compensation, of what the scale of that might be. That is yet to be determined.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it prudent to provide nothing for this? Normally, an estimate is made. Presumably, that is what-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not have it in the current year but the cases should go back shortly. The courts have said they will expedite them. I gather many of them can be dealt with in groups. That is the recommendation of the Director of Public Prosecutions. That is not in the budgetary provision at this point.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is the 7% increase in compensation that has been budgeted for coming from? It is a massive cause for concern that €16 million of citizens' funds is being given as compensation. In some cases, this may be for work-related accidents but, in many cases, these are settlements with members of the service who have taken action against management decisions or members of the public taking civil cases relating to Garda wrongdoing. What is the breakdown? How many are illness-related?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a combination. That is an estimate of the cost for this year based on, I presume, previous experience in respect of the amounts of compensation gardaí receive. This would arise in a range of areas. It could be road traffic accidents that they are involved in or personal injury cases. I do not have the detailed breakdown but I will get it for the Deputy.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the figure only relate to claims by gardaí?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is a combination.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need a breakdown of which ones are medical claims by gardaí or workplace-related accidents. There is a substantial number of industrial relations claims with members taking action over management decisions and then members of the public receiving compensation because of Garda wrongdoing or maladministration.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The 2017 revised estimate for compensation in respect of Garda claims of the type we are discussing where there might be injuries, etc., is €9.574 million. The allocation is €7.048 million for third party cases.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All the maladministration that has come to the surface does not just have a cost in terms of public confidence, it has a financial cost as well. The figure for this year is just in excess of €7 million, which is utterly shocking against a backdrop of services that could badly do with that money. In accounting terms, this does not reflect the lost hours as a result of that wrongdoing. With regard to the fixed charge notice issue, it is not just the compensation that is paid to the person, which we can quantify, it is the lost Garda hours and resources. Is that factored in separately or is it just absorbed by a garda coming into work and happening to be involved in a compensation case during normal hours? It is a loss of his or her working hours.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I take the point the Deputy is making. I refer her to a document which she might find useful where this is examined. It is the Garda appropriation accounts, which are published every September. That is examined publicly by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The approach to compensation is examined in detail.

The Deputy's other point applies to any organisation. If people are dealing with cases and there is compensation involved and so on, clearly there is a loss to the organisation. She is asking how that is accounted for in terms of the impact on the organisation. Most of these claims are dealt with the State Claims Agency, SCA, and we capture a certain amount of the overall cost. The Deputy would need to examine a combination of the Garda appropriation accounts, which are publicly audited and published, the SCA approach to these cases and the figures we have built in here as part of that. It is a complex picture, which is captured in different places.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a substantial and increasing figure, which is a concern. Why is the cost of Garda-related tribunals not included here? They are soaking up money under other subheads.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are in the justice Vote.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that. They are a direct cost relating to the mismanagement of An Garda Síochána. Why would it not be included in the Garda Vote rather than soaking up part of the other budget?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A variety of tribunals are covering different aspects of work of justice and not just the Garda. That is the budgetary position that have been captured under.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some are deliberately targeted at the Garda. We could pinpoint them.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Garda does not manage the tribunals. They are independent and separate.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, they are a cost as a result of the mismanagement of An Garda Síochána.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, one can put two and two together.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One certainly can.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge these are Estimates and the Minister is anticipating costs and more or less setting out what she will spend. Recently, the Commissioner set up a special unit to deal with the Charleton inquiry and she took back two guys who had retired. Five barristers were dealing with the same issue a few weeks ago. How are these costs factored in? In the interest of transparency, it would be good to see how much these cost and, for example, how much is spent on public relations.

On another question, I will not name the individual but I raised this matter with the Garda Commissioner at the committee meeting two weeks ago. It relates to a garda from the Bray division who has been in the High Court twice and is due to be back there again soon. The third case alone is expected to cost €100,000 for the State. How does the Department deal with such costs and how are they factored in? Is it possible to calculate exactly what sums will accrue for legal costs?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Deputy explain what category he is talking about?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a garda from Bray who was obviously-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not mean the individual case, just the category.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A High Court case is due to come up between An Garda Síochána and this member of the Garda. It will cost approximately €100,000. Where does the Minister factor in that cost?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is not just about a particular case but any and all of these cases.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apparently, that is captured under No. 3 in administration, which is training and development. The Deputy was talking about the Charleton inquiry. I do not wish to discuss that inquiry here and how people who are party to that are handling different issues. They should be brought to the attention of the Charleton inquiry. The Deputy mentioned the Garda Commissioner and other parties. They have been granted legal representation and how they manage that is really a matter for the Charleton inquiry.

I answered a parliamentary question recently on public relations. I will send the Deputy a copy of the reply to that question. It related to one agency and it was €92,955 for January to December. On the Deputy's point about legal costs and how they are borne, the court makes a decision in each case as to who bears the costs. There is a subhead relating to legal costs. I can get the figure for legal costs borne by An Garda Síochána and I will send it to the committee.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that legal representation has been granted to the major players who will engage with the inquiry. If, for example, the Garda Commissioner during her ordinary daily business is convening meetings, getting barristers before the inquiry even starts and hiring people in that manner, will all of that go into the Charleton inquiry costs in terms of her being entitled to do this, put a team of five together and use as many barristers and senior counsel as she wishes? Will that be lumped in under the Charleton inquiry legal representation costs?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that the sole member of the Charleton inquiry is very keen to deal with these issues effectively, efficiently and as quickly as possible. It would be entirely a matter for the sole member to determine the issue around representation and what is considered appropriate. I would not have a view on that. It is his decision. As I told the House previously, if there were concerns in that regard the place to raise them is with the sole member. Indeed, if any concerns were brought to my attention I would raise them with the sole member.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Garda Commissioner is responsible to nobody aside from the Minister and the Government. If she is engaging in activities such as this when she is supposed to be doing her normal job does the Minister have a problem with that, given that she is responsible for her?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. What I have a problem with is any interference with the Charleton tribunal. There is no role for me in respect of the question of representation, how it is used, how it is developed, what representation is used or what mechanisms are set up. That is entirely a matter for the Charleton inquiry.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. That is why I asked the question about her general daily work and the amount of energy, effort and cost she will be putting into defending herself during her normal day. Does the Minister not think that is separate from the inquiry?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have already had a great deal of discussion in other fora about the Garda Commissioner's competence to get on with her job. I have made the Government's approach to that clear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Am I allowed to ask a question on a different section?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. We are dealing with the Garda Vote at present. On foot of what Deputy Wallace asked earlier, in your reply you suggested that the cost for any and all of these cases - I am not interested in the specifics - could be under the training and development Vote. This refers back to Deputy Jack Chambers's line of questioning earlier.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the incidental expenses part of that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a little more than incidental expenses.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is captured in the Estimates. That is the terminology around it.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It must be said, in line with what was already reflected in the questions posed by Deputy Jack Chambers and to which I added mine, that there is an urgency to review how you categorise spending in this regard. I call Deputy Colm Brophy.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I listen to colleagues I am tempted to ask the Minister what the figure of €92,000 for public relations out of a budget of €2.572 billion would be as a percentage. We can try to use up the committee's time to further an agenda or we can look at the Estimates and the Votes. I apologise for missing the start of the Minister's contribution but I am particularly interested in the IT expenditure budget. There is a substantial figure for it. It is a critical area, as we have seen with regard to An Garda Síochána over the last number of months. Will the Minister elaborate further on it and particularly on how expenditure this year might deal with some of the IT issues which have been highlighted in recent weeks?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very critical. We have seen with recent controversies, for example, that when they are identified one can put an IT solution in place. Of course, one would prefer if some of those IT solutions had been there beforehand because then the problem would not have arisen in some instances. It is one element of capturing things correctly, and it is very important. This area was hugely neglected and there is a huge amount of work to be done on it. It is very complex and it is central to the work of An Garda Síochána. That is the reason I made it a priority. I sought a very substantial budget of well over €200 million to ensure that the various issues that need to be on the IT system could be captured.

I emphasise again the issue of the international databases which we sign up to being available here. For example, we are behind on the Prüm Convention. The Schengen Information System II, SIS II, is absolutely critical in terms of data exchange across Europe, but we only started that towards the end of last year. We are spending significant funding of €20 million next year to ensure we are not in breach of European standards in regard to those. A big part of the challenge the Garda faces is to manage and develop these IT systems. In fact, I believe more civilian expertise is required as well, as opposed to assuming that gardaí can be trained up to the level of ICT sophistication that is needed in the force at present. Clearly, there are gardaí who are specialists in this area and have developed an expertise. We wish to use that on an ongoing basis as well. A considerable amount of external expertise is brought in as well to ensure the systems are effective.

The Garda Inspectorate made a series of recommendations about IT and there is a programme in place to follow those. I can give the committee some details on that.

When there are crises, such as there have recently been, a modernisation programme is often not spoken about but there is a wide-ranging ICT programme involving 23 initiatives, to be delivered over a five-year period. It cannot be delivered overnight. Some €330 million, including €205 million under the capital plan, is being invested in Garda ICT infrastructure between 2016 and 2021 and this will lead to cutting-edge technology to deal with criminals. There is a new investigations management system which will make sure the PULSE system contains the complete chain of events relating to an investigation and that we can manage the information gathered and decisions taken. We used only to have the recording of the crime as the investigation was not captured on the ICT system but that is now possible.

There is also a new property and exhibits management system to record all property and exhibits which come into Garda possession, so that the life cycle of a drugs seizure can now be captured on the ICT system. There is a new content management system and a single place for all documentation and multimedia content. In the area of victim services, PULSE is being updated to include individual victim assessment and engagement screens, which will record information about victims and any Garda interaction or engagement with them, in line with the new EU victims' directive. It also makes sure gardaí get back to victims.

The new system will also have the right information and, rather than depending on one individual Garda to have the information, it will now be up on the screen for someone who is off duty, meaning there will be continuity of service. There is also a new e-vetting system and a new rosters and duty management system, on which there is more work to be done. We need to be aware where gardaí are at different points and that we have real-time information about the deployment of gardaí and the inspectorate wants that to be prioritised.

A new anti-money laundering application will support financial intelligence units to counter terrorist financing and money laundering and an updated detection system will lead to a better security architecture that proactively identifies potential threats and will ensure that policies can be put in place accordingly. The passenger name record has to be updated and there are other systems but they could take an entire committee meeting on their own. They are a critical part of garda infrastructure, as is how they are managed to ensure gardaí keep up to date and have the expertise to required for complex systems. This and the last Government allocated over €300 million for this critical work.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have received feedback from people who have said the ability of gardaí to come back to them in a coherent way, across different shifts, and to update information has been transformed. It used to really upset victims of crime to deal with a Garda and then be told he or she was off for a few days, meaning everything would stop. There have been real changes in that as a result of the technology.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the total cost of the implementation of the Labour Court recommendation?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had an estimate of €50 million.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move on from Vote 20 - Garda Síochána to each of the others. Vote 21 - Prisons is next and I invite questions from members.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps we should have questions on all the Revised Estimates, rather than on individual Votes.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will be here all day otherwise.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not draw up the methodology but I am trying to deal with what I have been given.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have no questions.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there are no questions, I will move on. I invite members to ask questions on Vote 22 - Courts Service.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste spoke about the work being done to update courthouses and develop new courthouses. A courthouse is a very important part of a town, particularly a rural town, so I urge the Department to refurbish courthouses as opposed to going outside the town to greenfield sites. I urge the Department to refurbish Tralee courthouse, which is a wonderful and historic courthouse.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My point is similar.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it about Tralee?

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. I will leave that to my colleague beside me. The improvement of courthouses across the country is very important and this budgetary allocation is very welcome, particularly for the courthouses the Minister named. Ongoing maintenance is important and, while I have not set foot in Tralee courthouse, the one in Swords is also notable. I raised the courthouse with Mr. Ryan and he spoke very strongly about it. Some of these buildings are several hundred years old and the vast majority are in town centres, many of which have been neglected for economic or other reasons. It is always good for the State to step in and bring the standard up, internally and externally, to support communities the length and breadth of the country.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste said the seven courthouses were to be done under PPPs. PPPs generally cost between 15% and 19% and the Comptroller and Auditor General prepared a report, some years ago, which questioned their value for money. Is it within the remit of the Department to look at the manner of financing for such infrastructure projects or is it proper to the Department of Finance?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I take the point on the refurbishment of courthouses, particularly those in the centre of towns which play an important role. I am familiar with the issue in Tralee and have met the group in question. The cost of refurbishment can be an issue and it can be extraordinarily expensive.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a beautiful courthouse.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Courts Service makes the decision. I have undertaken to ask the service to look at the different costs of a greenfield site as compared to refurbishment. Over €200 has gone into courthouses, not counting the €20 million for the Central Criminal Court, so there is a very serious investment programme but there are an awful lot of courthouses across the country. The investment programme is managed by the Courts Service.

Deputy Wallace made a very good point about public private partnerships and they have to be constantly kept under review. My Department plays a role, along with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as to what constitutes best delivery and value for a particular project. A range of criteria have to be taken into account. I have been involved in discussions on what is the best funding model for new projects but the answer is not fixed. The amount of Government expenditure available for capital investment is also a factor.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it possible for us to access the information as to how much a particular PPP would cost to finance?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is available once the decision has been made. It is a tender process. The Deputy would be very familiar with that.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to comment on any town in the country but we have to be practical. There is a value for money situation which we would be crazy to-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what I said.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People here are raising issues about whether €90,000, €100,000 or €200,000 is spent and at the same saying maybe €20 million, or €50 million is better spent. While I appreciate the importance of refurbishment of historic buildings and community involvement, in a public private partnership there has to be certainty that the contractor is good, will deliver on cost, is tax compliant and will work its way through the system to get value for money for the State. We should be conscious of these issues as well as taking others on board.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no response required to that comment from the Deputy.

I have a question on Vote 22 - Courts Service. The oversight of the wards of court moneys comes under the Courts Service. Where is that shown in the figures for Vote 22? Does the Department have a specific figure for wards of court? It is one of the items on this committee's work programme for this year. It would be helpful to have that information.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not in the Votes. It is held in a separate account by the Courts Service for the wards of court because it is not public money, it is other people's money. That is the way it is handled.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that. The Minister is talking about the specific awards for the children concerned but the cost of the oversight management of the actual maintenance of the service-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is in the courts' annual report but it is not captured here.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The cost nevertheless would be in here.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For elements of the staff who would form part of that service, yes.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is something to come back to. We will move on to Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority. I invite questions from members. We note from the Minister's opening remarks that there is an amalgamation in train.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under which Vote does the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner fall?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Justice and Equality.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move on to Vote 24 - Justice and Equality. As this Vote consists of several programmes I will list them and if members want they can deal with them specifically. They are: Programme A - Leadership in and Oversight of Justice and Equality Policy and Delivery; B - A Safe and Secure Ireland; C - Access to Justice for All; D - An Equal and Inclusive Society and E - An Efficient Responsive and Fair Immigration Asylum and Citizenship System.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In light of the report issued yesterday and the significant 59% increase in funding in the Estimate for the Data Protection Commissioner, it is clear that the office is being inundated with work. While the funding increase is welcome can the Minister comment on whether, given the volume increase and the report published yesterday, it has sufficient resources to deal with this unprecedented increase in activity?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is an area that will require more and more resources. With the new general data protection regulation there will be more work. It will have 100 staff by the end of this year. It has had a 59% increase in budget. We will continue to work with it on whether there are additional requirements. For now, we have responded to the points it has made to us about its needs this year and for next year.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of the money for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, €1 million has been provided for what we might call a second penalty point investigation that never took place. Is that money being provided again or has any effort been made to find out why it was not spent?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It continues to be included but the management board of GSOC is examining what approach it will take to that.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the new Forensic Science Laboratory replace the present one in Phoenix Park?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes and some upgrades, temporary refurbishment, need to be done to that as a priority but it will be replaced entirely.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under the heading Access to Justice for All, I found out from an answer to a parliamentary question to the Minister that there are people who have received awards under the Magdalen fund who have not yet got their awards because the Minister has not commenced the Assisted Decision Making (Capacity) Act 2015. When does the Minister intend to commence that Act?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is ongoing engagement with the Department of Health which has responsibility for this. This involves the Mental Health Commission taking over and setting up the office but we have agreements on the recruitment of the chief executive officer, CEO, for that. I will come back to the Deputy with a date.

Various actions have been taken to expedite this. I take the Deputy's point, it is very important that we have the office. There were a lot of discussions with the Department of Health, which is responsible for setting it up and needs to recruit people. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has given permission for the recruitment of people to run that office. I imagine it will happen in the near future. I will make a particular inquiry and will get back to the Deputy.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will now move on to Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. Do any members wish to comment? No. Do any Deputies wish to comment on Vote 41 - Policing Authority? No. We will go back to Vote 16 - Valuation Office, which we skipped in order to deal with Vote 20 - Garda Síochána. I invite any members who wish to comment on this.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please correct me, Chairman, if I am raising this question at the inappropriate time. The Forensic Science Laboratory is located in Phoenix Park. If I am not mistaken it falls under the remit of An Garda Síochána rather than the Office of Public Works, if so, is there any net effect on budgets?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does fall under the Department of Justice and Equality.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have raised it under the wrong heading but will there be any financial benefit to the Department or the Garda as a result of vacating that building and or will it be utilised?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have visited it. The building is very old. I presume there will be some use for it. Conditions are very cramped but I am sure it will be possible to use it or the site in the future.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Tánaiste and Minister for assisting the committee with its consideration of the Revised Estimates.