Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 6 April 2017
Public Accounts Committee
Dublin Institute of Technology: Financial Statement 2013-2014
Grangegorman Development Agency: Financial Statement 2015
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are now back in public session. We will continue our discussion with Dublin Institute of Technology and the Grangegorman Development Agency. I apologise for the late start. An issue arose regarding the late submission of financial statements. This applied, to some extent, to the organisations before us. We want every organisation which appears before the committee to have its accounts for 2016 completed and sent for audit by 30 June 2017. We ask the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to have the audit completed when meetings resume in September after the summer break.
The Grangegorman Development Agency was established in 2006 by the Government to redevelop the former St. Brendan's Hospital grounds in Dublin city centre. The agency aims to create a new city quarter around the Grangegorman site. The plan includes principally a new urban campus for Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, as well as new health care facilities for the Health Service Executive, new arts, cultural, recreational and public spaces, a primary school, public library, children's play spaces and a complementary mixed use development.
We are joined, from the Dublin Institute of Technology, by Professor Brian Norton, president, Dr. Noel O’Connor, director of student development, and Mr. Denis Murphy, director of corporate services, and from the Grangegorman Development Agency, by Mr. Ger Casey, chief executive, Mr. Peter O'Sullivan, director of finance, Ms Nora Rahill, corporate affairs manager, and Ms Lori Keeve, communications. We are also joined, from the Department of Education and Skills, by Mr. Christy Mannion and from the Higher Education Authority, Dr. Graham Love and Mr. Andrew Brownlee.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery that all mobile telephones must be switched off.
I advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
I invite Ms Drinan from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to make a brief opening statement.
Ms Colette Drinan:
There are two sets of financial statements before the committee in this session. The first relates to Dublin Institute of Technology's financial year ending on 31 August 2014 and the second relates to the Grangegorman Development Agency for 2015. The accounts for Dublin Institute of Technology show an operating surplus of €4.1 million on normal operating activities for the 2013-14 financial year. After taking account of transactions relating to development of the site at Grangegorman, the net operating surplus for the year was just over €2 million. The institute's total income for the year amounted to nearly €168 million. As seen in the graphic, State grant funding, at nearly €73 million, represented the largest income source. Tuition fees of just over €59 million included €12.3 million in fees paid by the State and student contribution income of €29.5 million. The institute’s operating expenditure for the year was nearly €164 million, with staff costs accounting for just over two thirds of that figure.
The Comptroller and Auditor General issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the institute's financial statements, but he drew attention to two issues in his audit report. Expenditure is deemed by the audit to be non-effective where full value has not been received for payments made. The institute has referred on page 5 of its financial statements to a prepayment of nearly €700,000 made in July 2014 to a provider of library services. The prepayment related to services to be provided during 2015. However, the parent company of the service provider was declared bankrupt in September 2014. As a result, the institute did not receive any of the contracted services in return for the payment made and did not receive any reimbursement.
The audit certificate also draws attention to a disclosure in the institute's accounts regarding instances of non-compliance with public procurement requirements. The value of goods and services that were not subject to competitive tendering during the year was €5.1 million.
The Grangegorman Development Agency is a statutory agency which was established in 2006 to develop educational, health care and other facilities on the former St. Brendan's Hospital grounds in Grangegorman.
The education facilities are funded by the Department of Education and Skills and Dublin Institute of Technology. The institute aims to transfer most of its activities to the Grangegorman campus by 2021. The healthcare facilities are funded by the Health Service Executive. As illustrated in the graphic contained in literature given to members, in 2016 the agency received total funding of €21.6 million. At the end of December 2015, the agency's financial statements record land and buildings of €116 million, of which €41 million is land transferred from the HSE. In regard to the buildings of €74 million, €54 million was funded by the Department of Education and Skills and €21 million was funded by the institute. The Comptroller and Auditor General issued a clear opinion in respect of the agency's 2015 financial statements.
Professor Brian Norton:
I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today’s session. I am accompanied by three colleagues - Mr. Denis Murphy, director of corporate services; Dr. Noel O’Connor, director of student development with internal responsibility for the DIT campus development; and Mr. Colm Whelan, head of finance. I would also like to acknowledge our colleagues from the Grangegorman Development Agency, Mr. Gerard Casey, chief executive, and Mr. Peter O’Sullivan, finance director.
DIT has provided technological education in Dublin since 1887, continually evolving to meet the educational needs of successive generations. Today, DIT is one of the largest higher education institutions in Ireland with over 20,000 students and 2,000 staff. Our role centres on learning, teaching, research, technology transfer, promoting innovation and engagement with industry partners, community partners, professional bodies, and Government agencies. Our activities address a range of ages and levels, from leading a training programme for the child care sector in inner city Dublin, continuing development of apprenticeship, undergraduate degree programmes, to PhD research. A distinctive aspect is the range of access pathways which enable and facilitate progress to the highest level of individual achievement. Approximately 5,000 students graduate each year from purpose-driven programmes that are practice-based and research-informed. They are our best ambassadors. Over 100,000 DIT graduates contribute to society and every sector of the economy, from those just entering their careers to those in leadership positions in Ireland and across the world.
Members of the committee will have received our submission on the DIT consolidated financial statements for the year ending 31 August 2014 which refers particularly to liquidation of a supplier of library services to DIT, procurement non-compliance, progress on a technological university for Dublin and the Grangegorman campus development. I confirm that we take our responsibilities in all financial matters very seriously. We continue to address procurement non-compliance as highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General. DIT has continued to balance its budget over what has been a challenging period and I commend my colleagues and our students whose significant co-operation has enabled us to achieve this. It is of particular regret that this was made more difficult when DIT incurred a major additional cost due to the liquidation of a long-time supplier.
To deliver the best opportunities for our students, DIT is developing a new campus in Dublin’s north inner city at Grangegorman and creating a technological university for Dublin with our partners in the institutes of technology in Blanchardstown and Tallaght. The Grangegorman campus will bring together all of DIT on one site from our six current locations and 30 individual buildings. Today, there are 1,200 students and 200 staff in Grangegorman. By September 2019, this number will increase to 10,000 students and 600 staff. The campus is also a major contributor to regeneration that will bring this quarter of the city in line with other parts of Dublin. The new technological university will have three physical campuses – at Grangegorman, Blanchardstown and Tallaght – underpinned by a digital campus that will provide our students with online learning resources. Building on our shared strengths, the new institution will have 28,000 students across our full range of disciplines.
These twin priorities, in line with Government decisions for higher education, are the focus for the DIT strategic plan to be delivered for our students and for the greater Dublin region. We acknowledge the support of the Department of Education and Skills, the Higher Education Authority and successive Governments who have worked with us. We have also had tremendous support from our industry and community partners and university partners in Ireland and abroad. Here in Dublin, the support of Dublin City Council and Dublin Chamber of Commerce has been invaluable. The challenging economic environment over recent years has impacted very significantly on higher education as a whole. However, my colleagues, our students, our graduates and our partners are ambitious for us to succeed in what we have set out to achieve and we hope to see significant progress in the coming months.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this opening statement and I hope we can answer all the questions satisfactorily.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witness is very welcome. I was going to say good morning but I think we have gone past that. I will try to keep my contribution short and I would appreciate succinct replies. The thing that stands out is the money that was spent on the library services and that DIT did not receive those services. Clearly, that money was not recouped. I note that those services had been contracted for the previous 15 years. What kind of controls were in place for a repeat contract such as that one? Would the controls be as robust as if a new service were being contracted?
Professor Brian Norton:
The Deputy is correct that the supplier had been contracted for 15 years. They had been in existence since 1920. The procurement was national procurement undertaken by the education procurement service of the University of Limerick the year before. Financial bona fides were checked in that process. There were a number of checks but the company ceased trading. We now review all contracts. We have a very strict process for which I am personally responsible. We undertake all the evaluation of the financial background of all suppliers at an institutional level without relying on any external factors in order to hopefully avoid a repeat of this situation. However, it was an exceptional circumstance and a tragic one in terms of our resources.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What efforts were made to recover the money?
Professor Brian Norton:
More effort was made to effect data recovery. The company was in liquidation and its debts exceeded its assets so there was nothing to recover. As can be seen from our submission, this was quite significant. The University of Durham was owed well over €1 million while the University of Colorado was owed €3 million. This was an international problem. This was a major international supplier to this sector. They had no assets to recover. We are in the normal process of seeking recovery but no one has yet received money back.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Presumably, different services then had to be contracted to fulfil the needs of the institute. How much did those services cost?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In regard to this type of company or supplier, does much of the material supplied and made available by them come directly from universities themselves, such as researchers signing copyright agreements? Is that the type of service in issue?
Professor Brian Norton:
It is access to library resources, both physical and online. It is publications which emerge from universities and research laboratories globally, both books and other media. The supplier aggregates from publishers. The theory is that the aggregation enables one to receive the best deal from a range of publishers. There are a number of ways of doing this. We now have another supplier of the same service. We are also in the final stages of joining the Irish research libraries consortium which achieves the same service. Essentially, it is seeking to deal with a very broad range of publishers. An aggregation supplier is there to achieve the best deal across a range of publishers.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What was the reason for the delay in DIT joining the Irish research library initiative?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would DIT joining not have enhanced its budget by virtue of the fact that------
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If DIT was paying towards another supplier, it would have made a contribution towards it. It would have been an asset to it. Am I reading that wrong?
Professor Brian Norton:
That was not the model that prevailed. We are not party to the consortium but my understanding is that the institutes did not contribute to the Irish research library. Their contributions were paid for by the HEA and SFI. The participants in the Irish research library consortium did not pay a subscription for the service, rather it was a service provided to them. Continuing with the same model for those joining, additional resources would have had to be provided to that consortium. I should point out that we are not part of that consortium and so how it is organised is not something we would be familiar with.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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DIT will be a member going forward.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to return to the point I was making in regard to knowledge that is generated within universities. Obviously, to build up their curriculum vitae students will want to publish articles. Publication of articles is very often a requirement for employment. They will typically sign a copyright agreement and their materials will be generated through their activities in the universities and the public funding of universities but the universities will have only limited access to that material or may well have to pay for it. I have with me a copy of a copyright agreement, which provides that any losses, damage or expenses for legal or professional fees shall be the responsibility of the person who signs that agreement. It seems to me that is a fairly one-sided effort. Am I correct that the universities develop the knowledge and the students, and, perhaps, the universities themselves then have to pay to acquire that knowledge?
Professor Brian Norton:
The Deputy's observation is correct but with one caveat. The information generated, for example, within DIT is available for fair use within DIT. The intellectual property, inventions or discoveries, etc. within an institution are available but access to research conducted and published in journals by other institutions would be subject to copyright agreements. In terms of copyright agreements, there are then agreements in terms of what constitutes fair use of copies etc. We pay to the agencies that supervise that area a fee to enable provision of copies free of charge. The model is right. The business of publishers is essentially to take in input provided by researchers. As the Deputy indicated researchers do need to place their work in the journals because there is no point doing research unless it is communicated. Publishers make their money by selling that research to other libraries. The material generated within an institution is still available within that institution but the Deputy is correct in terms of what she said regarding access to information elsewhere. That is a universal global issue. There are journals that provide various levels of free access, such as gold access, green access, etc. For example, DIT has an institutional repository such that fair use of all information that is produced in DIT would be freely available to colleagues and students.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it the responsibility of the individual institutions to negotiate that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Am I correct that somebody writes an article with the support of the investment that is made in the universities, it is reviewed free of charge, the journal editor is then commissioned and it is selected free of charge and the people who get paid are the people who do the typesetting and the publishers and there is a payment in respect of the portal and then the access is sold?
Professor Brian Norton:
There is more detail to it than that but essentially it is the business model that a publisher, which is normally the portal as well because most journals are accessed electronically, is paid for the access. Free access to journal material is driven by research funders. Increasingly, free access is provided either from the beginning in certain instances or after a period of time. The publisher's model is to make money by publishing.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Returning to the point in regard to the €700,000, which is a huge amount of money, it is very difficult to see how any company engaged in that as a business model would go out of business given that very little of the cost of generating the material is borne out of their own resources. This service is in the main publicly funded.
Professor Brian Norton:
There is a logic to the Deputy's argument although the structure of the publishing business is complex. The people who are making the money are the publishers. The people who supply the service to higher education institutions aggregate and work as a middle man between the publishers and the institutions. As materials became more available online the margins for the publishers decreased and they gave less commission to the middle men. It was determined that there would be a national procurement or an aggregate supplier of journals to all institutions. We are encouraged to draw from a national procurement exercise. It is the intermediaries rather than the publishers who went broke. Like the Deputy, I find it difficult to understand why they went broke but they did and they had no assets to recover.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What happened to the copyright of the material?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In regard to procurement, perhaps Professor Norton would explain what happened in regard to the €5 million spend in respect of which procurement standards were not complied with and what arrangements are being put in place to ensure compliance into the future?
Professor Brian Norton:
There is a note at the end of the appendix to our submission which details particular incidents around training and accommodation for the Science Without Borders programme. We were particularly exposed in this regard in that other institutions had student accommodation into which they could place students but because DIT does not own any student accommodation we had to enter into arrangements at short notice, which was shorter notice than would be required by the appropriate procurement process. We did go to three tenders but there is a more elaborate process required. The appropriate tender process was not entered into.
I should also point out that we have had a major problem in regard to staffing in this area. We are located in the centre of Dublin and our procurement specialists have been recruited by the expansion of the Office of Government Procurement and so we have had a very high staff turnover. DIT and the other agencies are now fully staffed. In the year in question the amount in respect of non-compliance was €5.1 million.
That was subsequently reduced to €3.4 million and €2.87 million. We have more work to do. It is still not good enough but we are moving in the right direction. We have looked at our process, route and branch, and applied appropriate staffing to the exercise.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will pick up on the point about the staff. According to the information before me, the average number of staff during the year is 1,741. What is the ratio in terms of part-time and full-time staff?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a great deal of precarious employment now at university level. Following the Cush report, universities had undertaken to ensure that following a duration of employment of two years, contracts would be provided. In the context of lecturing that is done by people who are part-time on the dole, this is a subsidy to the universities and it is not the way to proceed regarding the amount of research time that should be devoted to delivering lectures to students. Is DIT in compliance with the Cush report?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
If I may give the Deputy a sense of our figures, each quarter we submit - as all institutes are required to do - staff statistics to the HEA. Across the institute, the figure we submitted for December 2016, which would have been the last quarter, was of the order of 1,780 full-time equivalents. That is not the exact figure but it is approximately 1,780, and the number of people that represents is just under 2,200. To answer the Deputy's question, there are 400 or 500 people who would not be full-time. They are converted into full-time equivalents to give us the figure of 1,780. That is the proportion in the context of our overall staffing.
Like all the institutes, we are working through the implementation of the Cush report. We are in constant discussion both with the Department and with the staff representatives on that. I suggest that we are relatively complete in terms of the implementation of the conversions that were agreed on converting part-time staff to more secure employment. There are some outliers that we are having discussions with but we are working through the stages. There are a number of stages to that process but we are working through them and working with our partners in doing so.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are limited on time as we ran over earlier so I will move on to the Grangegorman development. I have visited the campus a couple of times and what has happened to date is incredibly impressive. It is in a great location. The witnesses might update us on, for example, the budgetary controls that go along with a development of that size, the speed at which the development is progressing and how close they are to the targets in terms of having it fully operational. The buildings that will be sold will have increased in value. Has that had an impact in terms of the speed at which they might be able to deliver it?
Professor Brian Norton:
The Deputy is correct to say that the property has been sold. Unfortunately, construction costs also increase so the effect in that regard is quite neutral.
In terms of overall financial controls - colleagues may want to go into the detail of this if the Deputy wishes them to do so - cost-benefit analyses, public sector benchmarks, etc., are used to ensure that, from a macroeconomic point of view, this is the project to be doing and at the level of cost control, we have groups within both the Grangegorman Development Agency, GDA, and DIT that monitor this intensely on a very frequent basis.
In terms of where we are, at this point we would have 1,200 students at Grangegorman and approximately 200 colleagues. This summer, the Luas will be coming through near our entrance - at Constitution Hill - and this will make the campus much more accessible. That is an important step forward in the overall planning. In September 2019, we hope to complete what are called the central and east quads, which will bring together in that area a range of activities currently in Kevin Street, Cathal Brugha Street and a number of other locations, some 10,000 students, all the accompanying colleagues, etc. As we speak, we are on track to achieve that. I do not know if colleagues want to add anything.
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
This is a very important project for the city and obviously for DIT. It is something we have been working on for many years. There is very clear governance within DIT. There is a very clear approval process between DIT and the GDA. My colleagues in the GDA may wish to talk about that. They are very much compliant with the Department of Finance guidelines and there are very clear sign-off stages. There are very clear project teams and an escalation of approval processes right up through and including the governing body of DIT and the Department of Education and Skills.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does anything stand out that has not been met in terms of either budget or the milestones?
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
Certainly to date, in a very challenging time, we have been able to bring together a lot of resources, as much as we could possibly get, and deliver very good value for money. My colleagues in the GDA may wish to comment on that. I do not see anything, and I am dealing with it internally within DIT, that stands out in terms of the governance of the project and the sign-off and approvals that are required for the funding arrangements.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the public private partnerships, PPPs, I note that the obligation will be for DIT to cover the cost of maintenance. That strikes me as strange given that there is a payment to develop the buildings.
Professor Brian Norton:
If I may correct that, with respect. The contract actually provides for the maintenance and that at the end of the PPP period, which is 25 years, the buildings will return in their original state. That is a particular feature. We have taken back to DIT responsibility for information and communications technology, ICT. That would be a risk if we left it to a PPP contractor because that area is so fast-moving and the requirements that will obtain in 20 years' time are totally unpredictable, as we said earlier. We have taken on the ICT risk because that makes the PPP more viable as a project but the maintenance, renewal and refurbishment of the buildings through their lifetime is part of the PPP contract.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I want to call Deputy Kelly.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a final question. The site was transferred from the HSE to the GDA. Did money change hands between the two in that regard?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
I am not sure that money changed hands. Facilities were provided and, as was indicated, a huge amount has been achieved on campus for both the HSE and for DIT.
Professor Brian Norton:
Can I make an important point of clarification? Our colleagues in GDA are responsible for developing the DIT campus but it is a unified campus and it also involves other facilities including a primary school, a Dublin city library, the new Phoenix Care Centre, which replaced the psychiatric facilities that were at St. Brendan's Hospital, a community care facility and a nurses facility, so there are still health facilities on the campus that meet the need that was provided previously. It is an important part of the project.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It might be useful, when we are considering the issue of intellectual property, to also examine the position regarding copyright and how that works, because a significant issue arises in that regard.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The witnesses are very welcome. On the library issue, this was a collective arrangement with a number of other institutes of technology? Who was administering it? Was it University of Limerick?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Had DIT used this supplier previously?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Nothing was ever flagged before?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
I wish to clarify that the procurement process was managed by Education Procurement Services, EPS, which was based in UL. Once the supplier was selected through that process we then, as an institute, entered into a contract. It was a relatively standard contract. Once the process was completed, we were then the contracting authority with the supplier.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Obviously there were no issues with the financial soundness-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, indeed. Was any attempt made to recoup some of the money?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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None of it materialised, is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What was DIT's loss in comparison with all of the other institutions that had a similar arrangement?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, sorry, what I mean is the other institutes. How much did they lose? DIT lost €700,000. Presumably, if the other institutes entered into similar arrangements, then they would have lost, pro rata, similar amounts.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why was there such a variance?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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DIT's loss was one of the largest. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was it the largest?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was DIT's loss the largest?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Whose was the second largest?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How much did it lose?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, I know, but DIT lost €700,000.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is some variance.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was the percentage of journals that Carlow took from the company versus the percentage that DIT took reflected in the relative losses? I am trying to match up the amounts lost and the amount of journals that were used. Would they correlate?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
One of the other issues that arises is the timing of the payment. We paid for the service in July 2014, while other institutes may have only part paid. The administrator was appointed in September. It was a UK company and was therefore under the UK insolvency legislation. Once the administrator was appointed in September, further payments would not have been made by higher education institutes. In some cases, they may not have paid all or any of the bill.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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DIT paid upfront.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why did the others not pay upfront?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It was just an accident that DIT was the first and was the only one that had paid upfront. Is that right?
Professor Brian Norton:
We have a much larger library service than others. We operate six libraries, while the other institutes would only operate one. There is quite an overlap in the level of journals that are supplied to meet student needs in different parts of the city. The exercise of producing the list of journals that goes to the supplier is done in the summer. Otherwise, we would need to employ more people to do it when the service is being provided in the autumn. It is a much larger task in the DIT. It is an activity that needs to be completed. We are also under clear instructions to make prompt payments. Indeed, we received a notice regarding same only yesterday. As we discussed earlier, the supplier then has to go to the publishers to secure the journals. If we leave it too late, the potential is that we would have a gap in service at the other end. Given our scale of operations, that would be more significant than for other suppliers.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We are on a clock in here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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DIT paid upfront. The institute made the decision to pay upfront. Mr. Colm Whelan would have made that decision, I presume.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The others did not pay upfront.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did DIT receive the goods? It never received them, as far as I understand.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What was the time difference between when DIT signed up and found out that the company was folding?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is three months and-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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DIT received nothing.
Mr. Denis Murphy:
The payment was for the year 2015. It was to put the journals and publications in place for the following year, which was the practice. While we are the largest institute in Ireland, there were a number of significant institutions in the UK who were also in a similar position. One UK institution lost €1.9 million, for example.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know but for the tender in Ireland, DIT was the largest customer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What percentage of the pie did DIT represent?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If we were to write to all of the other institutes of technology and ask them if they had paid up front for their provision, the answer would be "Yes" on the basis of what Professor Norton is saying.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is not paid in instalments.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It cannot be paid in instalments. Is that right? Was that not an option?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
I would suspect that because of this incident, the practice has changed over the last number of years. Currently, we are paying for the subscription for 2017 in two parts. We paid half of it in February and are currently paying the other half. It is in process. The market has changed to get over this because-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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During and prior to 2014, DIT never paid for this or any similar service in instalments. Is that right?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I ask that the witnesses would come back to the committee on that question.
Mr. Denis Murphy:
I have the history of the payments for the three previous years here and the timing would have been similar. At times there may have been a number of invoices but the principle of having the bulk of it paid by the end of the summer would have applied in each of the previous two or three years.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Murphy is certain that in relation to this and similar services, payment would have always been made in advance.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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All of the other institutes would have done the same thing. Correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Obviously this is something we will have to check but does Mr. Murphy believe that other institutes may not have been paying upfront?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Just a minute ago Mr. Murphy said that a number of them did but that he was not sure about all of them. What did he mean by that?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
I am just going by the list of creditors in the administrator's report. That report listed a number of Irish institutions but did not list others. I do not know, for those that are not on the list, whether that it is because they had not paid or whether there is some other reason for them not being on it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We can find out by asking others.
Does DIT have franchise agreements with other educational bodies with regard to the awarding of qualifications?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Of course, and rightly so. It is an important area. I ask Professor Norton to list the organisations in question.
Professor Brian Norton:
We have a relationship with the British and Irish Modern Music Institute, BIMM, which is a provider of a contemporary music programme. That is based here in Dublin. We also have a relationship with the Digital Skills Academy and Pulse College. That is all that we have here in Ireland. Internationally, we have arrangements in Egypt with Pharos University and with the Oman Tourism College. I am not sure that we have any other active arrangements at this point. They would be the most active arrangements as we speak.
Let us focus and pick one. Let us focus on the British and Irish Modern Music Institute. What is the nature of the arrangement?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does DIT receive income for this?
Professor Brian Norton:
Yes, we do. We can give the figures. It comes from the students. The programme is rather like the provision of HEA-funded places in the National College of Ireland, Griffith College Dublin or the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. It is a HEA-funded programme for contemporary modern music. The money comes by virtue of BIMM teaching students from the HEA-funded headcount. I am unsure whether we have the student figure or the income figure.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is the net income or loss based on this programme? Is it €2 million? Basically I am asking whether DIT makes money on this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not going to hold the DIT representatives to it. They can provide it to us later on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Anyway, it is a profit. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Do the student numbers in BIMM count as DIT students for the purposes of the headcount?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does that mean DIT gets money from the HEA on the basis of the BIMM students being part of DIT?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Am I reading this right? DIT gets taxpayers' money from the HEA. DIT hands some of it over to BIMM. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Therefore, the taxpayer is subsidising payments to BIMM. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is to benefit a private UK company. Is that correct? BIMM is a private UK company.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is there not something alarmingly wrong with this?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The HEA, which is funded by taxpayers of Ireland, is paying out money to DIT to pay a private company in Britain for students in DIT who are part of the DIT headcount. Is this the only example of such an arrangement in DIT?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a vótáil in the Dáil Chamber. Will we continue? It relates to a Private Members’ motion taken on Tuesday night. We can carry on if people want.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine.
Professor Brian Norton:
The HEA has sought to meet student demand in particular areas where the authority deemed there was not adequate resources within the sector. This applies especially in computing, for example, with the National College of Ireland and Griffith College Dublin and in medicine with the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. All of these are private providers meeting national need. It has been deemed that the best way of doing it is to have these providers. They receive money for delivering the programmes that are required. This is deemed to be a co-operative arrangement to do that.
If there was a policy change that deemed this arrangement not to be appropriate, then, obviously, we would work within it. It is a rather successful programme, by the way. The development of this proposal as a way of meeting the need was discussed fully in the HEA and the models were put in place accordingly. They apply in other areas in other institutions.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That does not make it right. I think this is something we are going to have to look at.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Where did the student element go to? Who gets the student element?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How much is BIMM paid every year by DIT? This is cash in and cash out. It is taxpayers' money.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It goes to a private company in Britain.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that. How much is DIT paying BIMM every year? I trust the deputation has that figure at least.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is the figure per year. Is that correct? The HEA is paying DIT to pay a private company €3 million per year. DIT numbers are increased because it does this. Is that correct?
Professor Brian Norton:
We deliver this area of provision. The other choice would be to provide the facilities or develop the facilities at the expense of taxpayers within the State provision. It was decided that this was the best way of delivering it to meet the demand. It has been done in other areas.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let us follow the money. How many students are involved?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The funding comes through from the HEA for this. The HEA then transfers the funding to DIT. Then, DIT keeps a slice of it. DIT is a net beneficiary and DIT numbers go up. Then, DIT also pays this company with an office in Dublin €3 million. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is bizarre. Can the DIT representatives list the other organisations with which it has similar arrangements?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is incredible stuff. Let me repeat what I said. The HEA is paying DIT. What is the total amount that the HEA is paying DIT?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is no problem.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have no issues in respect of that. I know of other ways in which this is done, but I have never heard of it being done like this. The role of the Committee of Public Accounts is to account for taxpayers' money. Taxpayers' money is being paid by the HEA – we will get a figure. I want the specific figures in respect of this programme rather than the total amount. It may be lined out or perhaps it is not. If it is not, then we need to get it lined out in some way. If the deputation does not have the figure, then we will have to get it again. It is then transferred to DIT. DIT is making an attachment to this and putting it into the DIT budget. Then, DIT is paying a British private company €3 million in one year.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is bizarre.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It counts for the DIT headcount on top of that. It is the only instance of it in the institute. Is that correct?
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
I wish to confirm that there was a significant amount of dialogue entering into that arrangement. It was an area of activity where we had not been involved. There is obviously considerable demand for it. We are very much in the applied arts area within DIT. We are very much around performance. This particular company has a particular reputation in this particular area.
We went through a validation process and a quality assurance process with that company. Our colleagues in the college of arts and tourism worked closely to guarantee the quality of the provision. Certainly, it is a step forward because I am not aware that it is available elsewhere. Students would normally have to go abroad to pick up this type of education. It is now available in Dublin. Within DIT there are-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I get the gist of it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is fair to say that if DIT is paying €3 million to this private company-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I want to find out how much DIT is putting into its own coffers in running the programme. The programme is run by BIMM and DIT is taking a slice off it for administration.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It would be very interesting, Dr. Love, to find out the funding percentage and then to break it down between BIMM and the Dublin Institute of Technology and what the money is used for. I accept what Dr. Noel O'Connor said but this is not normal. I would say the public is not privy to this and it needs to be looked into. In many ways it is creating a precedent. I ask the HEA whether we are doing this in a number of other locations and at what scale. Is the HEA in a position to provide the information or must it come back with it to the committee?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I accept it will take time but will the HEA provide the Committee of Public Accounts with a breakdown of all examples of where this is happening and how much taxpayers' funding is going into it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Committee of Public Accounts would like that information and we would then have other questions. I have a concern about public knowledge, transparency and how BIMM works. Obviously the majority are not aware of this scheme and we need to ensure that the way the funding is being passed through the HEA to the relevant colleges for these courses is transparent and that it is obvious what it is being used for. Second, in the higher education field, we need to ensure that if expertise in these specialist fields is required, we are moving towards being able to do it ourselves. What is being done to ensure that happens? Frankly, we will have single points of failure all over the place regarding the requirements for such programmes which we obviously have if there are 600 students. We need to see if there is a plan or a strategy to gradually move towards that through the HEA. I would like to see an obvious sign of that graduating from the beginning of where these programmes are signed off.
I want to see every single programme across every single college and to see what the HEA and others have done to make sure this will change gradually and we will be moving to a point in each programme whereby we will no longer have to do this. Surely there has been massive progress in this regard, particularly for the programmes that started some years ago. I am sure this will become obvious when this documentation is sent to us. I am glad I raised this point.
The final issue in regard to general procurement is that the cost of €5.1 million at 11.4% is a very significant figure. It obviously cannot continue. Has an action plan been put in place to ensure the DIT will be in compliance again? I admire much of the work of the DIT and where it is going into the future, but one needs foresight in planning for some of the issues that arise. I presume that is part of the process in regard to the controls and changes that have been put in place.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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When the witnesses are back before the Committee of Public Accounts next year, will it be a different story?
Professor Brian Norton:
We have made progress since that time. It started at €5.1 million and that figure has been reduced to €3.4 million and then to €2.87 million. We are moving in the right direction. We have put more resources in. There are technical issues. Things were procured, as members will see from the appendix, but the appropriate procurement for this was not appropriate to the particular threshold. There are technical issues that we need to resolve. The Deputy is correct that it is not good enough and we are endeavouring to do the job properly.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Chairman, I would appreciate if I could have answers from the HEA on the macro issues that I have raised and the record will allow the witnesses to see the questions I asked. I would like the DIT to address the issue of BIMM and provide the answers within a week to the committee. I ask the clerk to the committee to come back to me with the answers.
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
Chairman, may I briefly clarify one issue on that procurement? A substantial sum, just slightly under €1 million of that €5.1 million, related to the Science without Borders programme. That was a bilateral agreement between Ireland and Brazil. We bid as a country for scholarships in respect of that programme. DIT was very fortunate in that we obtained the largest number, approximately 250 students, but tied to that was the fact that we had to provide accommodation and English language tuition for those students. It was part of the package. At a very late stage in the year we found we had a large contingent of Brazilian students coming to DIT and we had to respond. In doing so we could not go to public tender in the normal way of public procurement but we sought expressions of interest from providers and covered ourselves for that year. In subsequent years we went through the process of public procurement.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I call Dr. Love, to be followed by Deputy Connolly.
Dr. Graham Love:
Let me reassure the Committee of Public Accounts that we will have the data quickly. We have a very clear and transparent funding model. We are falling slightly victim here. I apologise that we were not able to bring the figures to the committee quickly. I am just three weeks in the job but we will have it for the committee within the week.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fair enough.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We appreciate that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have a number of practical questions. However, I could not but comment that I am really impressed with the gender representation, as one would forget easily that 52% of the population are women. Is a lack of gender balance generally a problem in the university sector?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many are in the senior leadership team?
Professor Brian Norton:
There are 12 on the team. It is unacceptable that there is one woman but we have a structural problem in that unlike the universities where there is a rotation of posts and things will change rapidly, people are appointed to particular roles until their retirement. The rate at which one can change is limited in that regard. It is dependent on colleagues resigning or retiring and the ability to replace them. The rate at which we change that has inherent limitations. That is a subject of great regret.
We are beginning to see change coming through the organisation and that is encouraging but it is a fact that it is a challenge coming to senior level.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The HEA has done a report that not just morally but on a business level it makes more sense - - - - -
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Professor Norton might agree, but the absence of gender representation is beyond endurance. If it makes sense on a moral level and more importantly for the leaders in industry on a business level, what plan has been put in place to address gender issues?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What plan?
Professor Brian Norton:
There is a whole element of training, particularly around unconscious bias, under-representation on interview panels and on what one places in advertisements, but as I have said the real practical barrier - and we can be as strong on that as we wish - is that because of the way we employ people and put them in permanent roles, the rate at which the vacancies happen is slower and perhaps we need to move to a different kind of model, where we rotate senior appointments. That is a discussion that needs to take place in a wider forum. That would increase the rate of change.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I think there was a reference to the number of staff in the opening statement. There are 20,000 students and a staff of 2,200. There are 1,780 full-time equivalents and approximately 400 to 500 members of the staff are not full-time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What percentage of those are women?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would like the figure now, please. Would I be fair in drawing the conclusion that it was predominantly female or would I be wrong?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will revert to the total, but I am speaking about the part-time numbers now.
Mr. Denis Murphy:
We can get the Deputy the figures. It would not be fair to say now, as many of the staff in that category are what we call HPALs, those being, hourly paid assistant lecturers. There is gender variance across the disciplines. In some disciplines, the bias is in favour of males. When I say "bias", I mean the balance. I am referring to engineering, for example. In other disciplines, the balance is female. We can confirm the figure, but the balance-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Murphy can imagine that this is important. I come from Galway.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Its university has not distinguished itself in gender terms.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The witnesses will revert with the breakdown.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does Dublin Institute of Technology have a teacher assistant post?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good. Does it employ lecturers who do not have a research brief?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Of the total number of students, how many are from outside Ireland or non-EU countries?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So, 10% are non-EU students.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that a source of income for the institute?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How much is that income?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the student dropout rate?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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A 13% dropout rate.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the dropout rate high or low relative to other colleges?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does DIT follow up on why that percentage-----
Professor Brian Norton:
We have a retention office. We conduct exit interviews. We are a part of national student surveys. Great attention is given to this issue. The reasons are different course by course. Due to how the CAO system works, many students in level 6 or 7 programmes may have been unsuccessful in accessing level 8 programmes and have not prepared for the programmes as they would have done had those been the students' first choices. There are a range of issues in that regard.
We are a practice-oriented institution in the centre of Dublin. Some students who gain skills during the course of their programmes prefer to enter into employment instead of graduating because of the salary offerings. There are other reasons than negative ones for dropping out. Those students may rejoin us in subsequent years. This issue is more complex in some institutes than in others.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Page 25 of the accounts refer to two subsidiary undertakings, including An Chéim Computer Services Limited, which is 100% owned by DIT. Are there others? This morning, we heard that WIT had a range of companies. Does DIT not have a range?
Professor Brian Norton:
There are no others. An Chéim Computer Services Limited has been closed down and exists as a company called EduCampus Services Limited within the HEA. That company provided payroll and admin services to the institute of technology sector. The other company - Dublin Institute of Technology Intellectual Property Limited - has been closed or is in the course of being closing.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am sorry, but I did not hear that. There are two companies. An Chéim Computer Services Limited is going to be-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is another company.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has the second become another company?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is the purpose of the first company to license-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It "was established to hold patents and to [license] them to the third parties".
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The one that has been wound up and is gone.
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
An Chéim had four business applications - Agresso, Banner, Millennium and Core - that are well known to staff within the institutes of technology sector. They underpin all of the accounts information, student registrations, examination results, library services and human resources, and provide for approximately 100,000 students and 7,000 staff across the sector. An Chéim has ceased to trade and its activities have novated to a new company called EduCampus, a subsidiary of HEAnet.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is DIT showing that in these and future accounts?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will DIT receive an income from it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Do its services break even?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The witnesses stated that there were no other companies.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has any conflict of interest come to their attention that they or the HEA are addressing?
Dr. Graham Love:
I will follow up on the Deputy's gender question, although she indicated that she already knew the details. We conducted a review last year, chaired by Mrs. Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, on the gender position in our higher education institutes. It made 12 recommendations and has been published. We have an implementation plan for those. For example, agreed targets and indicators of success should be included in our compacts with each institution to try to push this matter onwards.
I will provide a clear example. The main research funding agencies in this country - Science Foundation Ireland, the Health Research Board and the Irish Research Council - have mandated that higher education institutions, particularly the universities, must have the Athena SWAN accreditation in order to be eligible for funding. That Athena SWAN award is like an ISO standard for an institution's gender policy.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many colleges have it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not new. Athena SWAN has been there for quite some time.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is in Ireland, too.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Dr. Love read the comments about the Athena SWAN assessment of Galway?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was a very recent assessment.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Dr. Love.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Whelan. I will make one or two quick points.
Does the library and journal facility still involve advance payments?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
No, the payments we are making through the current supplier, which again through the procurement, we are making in the first quarter of 2017 for 2017 services. We made a payment in February and we have one other payment going through. It is effectively split in two this year and the second half is going through currently. It was processed in the past two days.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is the annual figure?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Has anything been done about exposure risk?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
Yes, we are doing two things, learning from the other unfortunate incident. First, we have done due diligence on the supplier we are dealing with and, second, we have assurance from them that they have paid the money to the publishers of the journals, as the president said earlier, in order that money is paid over to them. One of the problems in the previous incident was that the money had gone to the middlemen but that had not been paid over and, therefore, we had no right to the service because the money had not been paid.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is there insurance? Is it like the good old fashioned way that people ensure their debtors?
Mr. Denis Murphy:
We have not. In the first year, there was an element of a bond. It is something we are looking at. There is an issue around that type of insurance in that if there is a risk, one will not get it. If there is no risk with the company, one will probably get insurance at a rate. There is a call to be made on that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Professor Norton might not have been exact when he said that while it was paid upfront, he mentioned the prompt payments Act. Would the Act have applied to this UK company? Would there be an obligation under that legislation?
Professor Brian Norton:
I was not specifically referring to that. I did not say the prompt payments Act. I said there is an onus on us in our system because of the requirement to make prompt payments. Our system encourages prompt payment and it does not make a distinction about where the payment needs to go.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Professor Norton can understand that when we heard "prompt payments", we thought it was a reference to the legislation.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The loss was incurred. Students and staff tell us that they have had to suffer the brunt of the cost savings that have had to be made. DIT cannot have lost €700,000 without a knock-on effect on the delivery of services for students and teaching staff. Can Professor Norton give us an indication of how DIT shared the pain of the loss or send us a detailed note? That is the big issue after the loss was incurred. I read the High Court documentation. Following the first meeting of this committee in July last year, we wrote to him about this because the institute's annual accounts had just come in and we received a 100-page report from Professor Norton. We are familiar with that. The fallout from that is most worrying.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The institute was able to carry it?
Professor Brian Norton:
-----and we have sought over time, by deferring capital spend and not making senior appointments or duplicating senior appointments, to bring the reserves back up to that level. However, the reserves were there to "carry it", if the Chairman wants to use that phrase. We have sought over time to replenish the reserves by delays in capital expenditure and duplicating certain roles for periods. That is essentially what we did.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will Professor Norton send us a note on that? His comments are general and a note would give us a better feel for what happened.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The note should not exactly cover the €700,000 but it should give us a good estimate. Professor Norton will understand that we are being asked by staff and students about these issues and, therefore, we need a proper answer.
A newspaper article was published today in which a delay was mentioned regarding the Grangegorman site.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How did that result in a two-year delay?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Casey said it was "substantially won by the State".
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is the original bidder, Eriugena, on site?
Mr. Ger Casey:
No. The NDFA is the procuring authority in this particular instance and it is negotiating with Eriugena now to get the financial close, which we understand will be in the next few months, with a view to starting on site, hopefully, in or around that time and having the buildings ready for occupation in September 2019.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Has this implications for other buildings that the college had planned to leave earlier? I acknowledge the Luas line, in which the State has invested, will also have an impact.
Mr. Ger Casey:
It would have delayed that. One of the key issues is that to sell the buildings, they need to be vacated. We cannot sell them until we have financial close. That will fund other developments. Logistically, there is no point in building some of the other buildings for DIT until those quads are there. It has an impact on that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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So the court challenge has delayed the entire process by two years.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Has the reduced workload impacted all the people who were planning to do something during that two-year period, given what the agency had planned did not happen?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The agency must have been gearing up for increased activity in 2016 and 2017, which had to be put on hold because of a two-year delay resulting from the court case. Has it impacted on the workload?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Construction and financing costs may have changed during the two years and the agency might generate more income from the sales of the buildings it vacates. Has an assessment been conducted of the cost implications of the two-year delay?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Has the agency not done a financial exercise as a result of the delay?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask Mr. Casey to do an exercise on this for the agency, not for us. If a €150 million project is delayed by two years, there are financial implications. They might be positive. For example, the other buildings might generate more money in sales. I am surprised the agency has not assessed financially the possible-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not need the number now. I need the agency to work it out. The officials know my question.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What process is ongoing?
Dr. Noel O'Connor:
The PPP process is ongoing and it is being managed by the NDFA. Internally in DIT, there are detailed discussions with the GDA, the Department and, indeed, the HEA around the next stages of the development and the funding. We are participating fully in all those activities. I would beg the indulgence of the committee in allowing us the sensitivities around that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When is the contractor expected to be on site?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We could wait until October.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not need it next week.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There was a major two-year delay and there are obviously financial implications.
The Committee of Public Accounts wants to know that the organisations are on top of this matter.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We want to ensure that we are on top of it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do want to pressure the organisations. October is fine or after the summer.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have concluded our discussion here today. As all of the witnesses are men, I thank the gentlemen for their attendance. We will suspend until 2.30 p.m. when we will continue our examination of the financial statements of the National University of Ireland, Galway.