Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 23 March 2017
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness. He is joined by Ms Sharon Greaney, who is a senior auditor in the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Apologies have been received from Deputies Alan Farrell and Mary Lou McDonald. The minutes of the meeting of 9 March 2017 have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising that are not on the agenda? If there is nothing specific, we will move on.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like to commend the Chairman on the launch of the committee's report into Project Eagle. I would like to mention an issue that has arisen since the launch and is now in the public domain. Approximately €800 million of loans were sold in private. They then seemed to be outside normal rules and procedures. Will the Comptroller and Auditor General clarify whether that will be looked at in any of his reports coming up in the near future?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A section 226 report was referred to in a press statement yesterday.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Yes. We are working on a section 226 report that will examine the progress made by NAMA with the achievement of its objectives over a three-year period. I think that is one of the issues we looked at in the first section 226 report. We will certainly be looking-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When will that report be finished?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sure the commission of investigation will ensure it is included in the terms of reference. That is all I will say.
No. 3 is correspondence received for today's meeting. No. 343A is a briefing document from the Department of Education and Skills. We will note that. No. 346A is the opening statement from the Secretary General. We will note that.
Category B comprises follow-up correspondence received from Accounting Officers and Ministers arising from previous meetings. Nos. 300B (i-iii) and 331B are correspondence dated 17 February 2017 and 8 March 2017 from the Secretary General of the Department of Defence, Mr. Maurice Quinn.
This is a follow-up to the appearance of the Department before the committee on 26 January and a subsequent information request. That was held over from our last meeting. Having examined the reply, there are a number of questions I believe we need answered. I propose that we ask the secretariat to draft a letter and if any member wishes to have an input to the letter, he or she should please contact the secretariat. It was in to talk about the sale of the Government jet in Savannah when it was there at that time. A number of issues have been brought to my attention which I wish to put in writing to the Secretary General. If anyone else has something to include in the letter, he or she should contact the secretariat as the letter will be sent in the coming days. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 336B is correspondence dated 6 March 2017 from Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection, providing a breakdown of payments on the free travel scheme. We agreed to note and publish that. Is that agreed? Agreed. We might send a reminder to the Secretary General to submit information to the committee that we requested on the Social Insurance Fund or the redundancy fund in terms of amounts that had not been collected. I do not recall the exact title. The information is months overdue.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It was said that we would have it early in the year.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fine, once we get it shortly.
No. 342B is a letter dated 13 March 2017 from Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, providing follow-up information to our meeting. It relates to toll roads so members who have an interest in that can follow it up. There is also reference to the swimming pool programme and a number of other issues.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I read through it and I might have some follow-up questions. I will send them to the secretariat. A wide range of issues is covered but I am interested in particular in the Department's knowledge regarding the decision of Norwegian Airlines, which changed the way in which it viewed Ireland and came to Dublin Airport. I really want to dig into when the Department knew. According to that documentation it was very late in the day, which to me is almost unbelievable.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will write back to the Secretary General. Deputy Kelly should contact the secretariat.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will supply information to the secretariat.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It can be included in the letter. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Nos. 344B and 351B (i) to (vii) are correspondence dated 16 March 2017 from Mr. Tony O'Brien in relation to records concerning the meeting on 2 February 2016. That has been circulated. Also circulated yesterday was a copy of the documentation released by the HSE under freedom of information. Both of those items relate to this afternoon's meeting and we will deal specifically with them then.
No. 347B is correspondence dated 10 March 2017 from Professor Philip Lane, Governor of the Central Bank, providing clarification on whether allegations made about a specified credit institution were forwarded to the European Central Bank and also providing an explanatory note on the processes and procedures involved in the transfer of certain assets. The correspondence is marked "private and confidential: subject to legal professional privilege". The clerk requested clarification on what the Central Bank means by that but I am now informed that our legal advisers have said we can note and publish that and send it back to the people concerned. There is reference to the eligible liability guarantee, ELA, scheme and constructive ambiguity is the way they describe how they manage the scheme. That is a new buzzword in government. I will let members interpret that as they wish.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are we getting an interpreter?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think it is designed not to be interpreted. That is my view of that letter. Members are free to follow up the correspondence with whoever has contacted them on the matter.
We now turn to category C correspondence which relates to private individuals and any other correspondence. Nos. 333C(i) and (ii) are from Mr. Aidan Sweeney of IBEC providing a policy brief to the committee in relation to local authorities. Is it agreed that we note that? Agreed. Members can use it as they wish.
No. 34C is a letter dated 4 March 2017 from an individual raising a number of environmental issues and the lack of joined-up thinking across State and semi-State organisations. Is it agreed that we note that? Agreed.
No. 335C is a letter dated 8 March from an individual inquiring about the status of an OPW examination of cases in relation to land transactions being carried out in 2015 where there was potential for corruption. The secretariat has contacted the OPW for an update on the case or the results of the examination. When we get the information, we can forward it to the individual. Is it agreed that we note the correspondence and hold it over until we get a reply? Agreed.
No. 337C is a letter dated 10 March from the National Transport Authority providing a note on the licensing of bus services operated by Bus Éireann. Is it agreed that we note that? Agreed.
Nos. 338C and 340C are from an individual alleging a series of issues in relation to the Garda, the HSE and her workplace. A number of people are specifically mentioned. This is a sensitive case and relates to a number of loosely related matters. The clerk has spoken to the person by phone also. While we would like to be helpful, it is not within the scope of the committee to investigate the specific matters. It also appears the individual may be not be clear in terms of how the issues can be best examined. I propose we write to the person explaining the committee's role but indicating that she should contact the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission if she believes an issue arises in connection with the Garda; that she should contact the Medical Council in relation to alleged medical mistreatment, to which she referred in the letter; and she should contact the Workplace Relations Commission to seek advice on work related matters. Beyond that, I do not think we can do a whole lot. Her letter gives rise to wide-ranging issues. We want to be helpful to the person but it is not a matter for us. Is it agreed that we note that? Agreed.
Nos. 339C(i) and (ii) is correspondence dated 14 March from the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board responding to a request for a detailed note on the overall estimated cost of the new children's hospital development project. In the letter, it is mentioned that a memorandum is to go to Government in the coming weeks and that costs will be set out and discussed by the Government. Following that the committee will receive a more complete response. Does any member wish to comment? I believe we should hold off on pursuing the issue for a short time.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I agree with that. Obviously when the memorandum is submitted to the Cabinet and published we will need to have the HSE or the Department appear before the committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is a special board - the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board - as well.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. There is confusion as well in terms of some of the issues around who is the Accounting Officer. We must find out who that is as he or she needs to attend as well as the relevant bodies. That is an issue a number of members have raised. We tabled parliamentary questions and got a similar response in terms of a holding statement pending the memorandum being brought before the Government.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
By the way, there were two briefing sessions in the AV room.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, to be fair, there were briefing sessions.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I attended and found it interesting. All the questions were not answered but we got some helpful information. We will come back to that once the Government clears it.
No. 341C is dated 13 March and is from the Department of Health in relation to the North Meath Community Development Association. Members will recall we have had a number of items of correspondence on this matter. The Minister's office has reviewed the matter and liaised with the HSE which believes it is complying with its commercial obligations. From the committee's point of view, I believe we cannot take it further, as it is essentially a contractual dispute between the association and the HSE. I propose we write to the North Meath Community Development Association and advise it accordingly that the committee cannot take the matter any further at this stage. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 345C is dated 16 March 2017 and is from Mr. John McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government in relation to the Water Framework Directive. I propose we forward a copy to the correspondent who raised the matter, who happens to be the same individual who wrote to us in relation to the environmental issues discussed earlier. We are still waiting a detailed response from the Department following our recent meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 348C (i) and (ii) is from Nursing Homes Ireland dated 16 March 2017 providing a submission to the committee on the HSE response to the committee in relation to residential care costs. I think members may want to consider this further. I propose that we have another engagement with the HSE sometime after Easter and that could be one of the issues we will discuss. Since the committee first met in the second half of 2016 we have had the HSE in to speak on several occasions, including on Console. Recently, the HSE was in to speak specifically on nursing homes and patients' private fund accounts. Today, Mr. O'Brien is in to deal with the record of the previous meeting, but the committee in the normal course of events would schedule a full meeting to discuss HSE matters. We will schedule a meeting and that issue can be included. We have not had the HSE in to discuss its accounts for the year. We will set a date for that and deal with the issue then. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 349C dated 21 March is correspondence from an individual raising matters in connection with Bord na gCon accounts. The individual suggests we get the figures for the first quarter of 2017 when we engage with Bord na gCon. The secretariat is working on a date for that engagement and we will ask for the latest figures to be available. If they have not been audited, we will ask for the best management account figures it has.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When will that be?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will come to that in a moment when we deal with the work programme.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No problem.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Representatives from Bord na gCon will be coming in soon.
No. 350C dated 15 March is correspondence from the UK Public Accounts Committee network inviting members and clerking staff to an event on good practice and knowledge about the work of the Public Accounts Committee. It may be a valuable opportunity to share and learn from other committees' experience. It will be a one-day meeting in the UK on Monday, 12 June. While I personally cannot attend on that date, if any members would like to avail of the opportunity to attend they should contact the secretariat. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General will be attending separately. He will not - it is for public accounts committee members and staff. Anybody interested in attending should let the clerk know who will do up an estimate of the cost of the trip and we can clear that at a subsequent meeting.
The next item is No. 4 - report, statements and accounts received since the last meeting.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
At the last meeting I raised an issue about a letter we got from the president of WIT in which he clarified his interest in a private company and noted he had been a director at some point. I asked that we write back to him to ask if he is a shareholder in the company. Was that done? If it was done, I assume we have not received a response yet.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have written out for that and we have the reply, which will be circulated.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When did it come in?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Representatives will be in next week.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When did the reply come in?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It came in the last day. We will circulate it tomorrow if we have not already done so.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We did not circulate it before today's meeting. It must only have arrived recently. We will circulate it tomorrow.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Representatives will be in on 6 April.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perfect.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Deputy will get that correspondence tomorrow. If Deputies want anything else before the meeting, further correspondence can go out to alert them to provide that information in advance.
The next item is report, statements and accounts received since the last meeting. It is a short list today. The Heritage Council received a clear audit opinion, but there is a remark that it did not carry out a review on the effectiveness of systems of internal control in 2015. The Environment Fund received a clear audit opinion and has €46 million turnover. The Travellers Protection Fund, Travel Agents and Tour Operators Bond Accounts received a clear audit opinion but in 2015 it appears that only €10,000 went through the accounts. Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can tell us about that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that when a travel agent goes bust?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In some years there can be no activity and other years there can be quite a bit of activity.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The aviation regulator has a role in that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When the aviation regulator makes a payment to people whose travel agent went bust, does it come out of this account or separately?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On a personal note, I can confirm in 2016, I booked my holiday with Low Cost Travel Group which went bust. There are a good few people involved. I got full reimbursement last year so I am expecting-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----significant activity in the accounts in 2016. Mine will be a small percentage of that.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, it was about €3,000 or €4,000. I forget the figure. It was a few thousand anyway. I got all my money back. I was impressed ultimately. I had to wait three or four months but it all came right in the end. The system works. I was impressed by it. That is all I will say.
The next item is the work programme. There is a draft work programme in front of us now. Today we have the Department of Education and Skills and the HSE in the afternoon. The HSE will be here to deal with the record of previous HSE meetings.
We are scheduling the Higher Education Authority for a meeting next Wednesday and are suggesting 5 o'clock. We had intended dealing with it this afternoon but because of the HSE issue, we have moved the HEA to next week. We want to get it in before we meet with the third level institutions. On Thursday, 30 March we have UCC, Dundalk Institute of Technology and University of Limerick. On 6 April, we have Waterford Institute of Technology, Dublin Institute of Technology and National University of Ireland Galway. The meeting with the Higher Education Authority is scheduled for 5 p.m. next Wednesday but it may have to be moved because the business committee is considering the timing of the Dáil debate on our report on Project Eagle. There is a question of it being taken in Government time which will be next Wednesday evening. If that is the case, we will have to change the time and make the meeting with the HEA a little bit earlier. We will know when the business committee finishes its work today. We will come back to the committee if there is a change of time in that. We thought it might be on Wednesday morning at 11.50 a.m. but it might be taken in Government time on Wednesday so our meeting might have to move a little bit. That is 6 April.
On 13 April, we will have the Department of Education and Skills in to deal with the special report on the residential institutions redress fund and the follow through on that. Representatives from Caranua will join us for that meeting. There has been a lot of public discussion about Caranua. The following week is the Easter break and we are not sitting that week. The Dáil is not sitting the week after that either so there is a two-week Dáil break. Do members want to sit that second week and have a meeting to deal with some of our issues or are we happy to leave the two-week break? I do not detect any gushing enthusiasm for an earlier meeting. We will move on.
Provisionally we have the Revenue Commissioners set for 4 May. On 11 May we have the Department of Finance. There is an issue we have to deal with. I have gone off script here.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Direct provision.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The secretariat is trying to tie down dates for Bord na gCon, which will hopefully come back to us tomorrow, and the Department of Justice and Equality regarding direct provision. We suggested last week that if we get a date for those meetings on 4 May or 11 May we can move the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance back a week.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is going into 27 April?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is to be confirmed. We are not going ahead with a meeting on 27 April. We will have no meeting on Thursday, 20 April which is Easter week.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are going to push back Revenue and the Department of Finance and whichever one of the two lads comes back we will slot them in.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If both come back we will move them back by a fortnight.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will put whichever one comes in first on 4 May and whichever one comes in second we will put in the week later. Is that right?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will put them in on 11 May and we will move Revenue and the Department of Finance back a fortnight.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will try to get the two of them in first.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Have we written to both?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. They are working on it. They are trying to finalise the date. That is good.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The clerk might circulate a note when he has confirmation of the two.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will send out a note because members have particular interest in certain issues. When we have confirmation, the clerk will send us all out a note on that rather than waiting for the formal notification the following week. That is fine.
There being no other business, at this stage we will suspend for a minute while the witnesses take their seats.