Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 7 March 2017
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach
Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion
4:00 pm
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Tara Buckley, director general of RGDATA. I remind members and witnesses to please turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the sound transmission quality.
I advise witnesses that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
I invite Ms Buckley to make her opening statement.
Ms Tara Buckley:
Thank you very much, Chairman. I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the overview of the operations of the national lottery. The national lottery is an area of huge importance to the retail agents I represent. It is also a key issue for this House as the national lottery is different from ordinary gaming in that it is operated under a State licence and was established to generate money for good causes.
The independent community retailers that RGDATA represent have played a key role in the success of the national lottery since it was first launched in 1988. We certainly believe that our model of responsible retailing in the community assisted the national lottery to establish itself and develop into a well-regarded institution that attracted a significant price tag when the Government put a 20-year licence to operate the national lottery up for sale.
In general our members' relations with Premier Lotteries Ireland, PLI, the new operators of the national lottery have been positive and constructive. While there were some initial transitional issues as PLI took over the national lottery franchise, thankfully the sort of technical issues which led to outages and the cancellation of a national lottery draw in 2015 have diminished. PLI has also shown itself to be proactive in managing its relations with the national lottery agents and we welcome that.
As can be expected, PLI, as a commercial company that made a significant investment in the national lottery, will take whatever steps are necessary to build and grow its business in Ireland. Retailers welcome any efforts to increase the retail sale of national lottery products, the prizes and the money raised for good causes and will continue to be responsible retailers within their local communities. PLI can be expected to maximise the opportunities to grow its business operations here and to secure a return on the €405 million it paid for the 20-year operating licence for the national lottery. This is a fair and legitimate aspiration on its part, which should yield greater sales, more prizes and greater returns to good causes. Of course PLI will do what it can to get a return on its business investment. As the company itself states, "PLI's mission is to operate a world class lottery for the people of Ireland, raising important funds for good causes, on behalf of the Irish Government".
It was recognised at the time of the sale that it would be important to have an independent body overseeing the operation of the national lottery, protecting players' interests, the common good and ensuring the lottery was run in accordance with the licence. Hence, the new licensing structure for the national lottery also saw the establishment of the first national lottery regulator in Ireland in 2014. While the new regulator has needed time to establish and to start to build up expertise and knowledge we think that three years down the road the committee should review the role and function of the national lottery regulator.
From an RGDATA perspective and as significant stakeholders, there are some specific areas where we believe the national lottery regulator needs to become more public, find its voice and make its priorities and activities better known to the wider public. I am not sure what the experience of this committee has been but, to date, RGDATA has heard very little from the regulator since the office was established and we would encourage a more open and active profile for this important role.
Let me give some examples of how the national lottery regulator plays a pivotal role. The first area relates to technical issues. In 2015 there was a significant technical issue concerning the national lottery which led to a draw being postponed for the first time in the history of the national lottery. There were also some additional technical outages and incidents since then. The technical integrity of the national lottery is of primary importance for players and retailers. To date, no independent and authoritative explanation has been provided for the outages. Retailers believe the regulator should be active in securing explanations for when the system fails and providing stakeholders with details of the problems and the measures taken to ensure they do not recur.
It is also important that the regulator regularly audits the technical performance of the national lottery and reports this information fully. The growth in online gaming is another area where we believe the regulator needs to step up to the plate and demonstrate that the office is protecting the interests of players, the national lottery and the broader community. At present there are 21 different instant games that can be played online on the national lottery website in addition to the national lottery and EuroMillions draws. Players registered with the national lottery online are subject to spending limits of €75 per day, €300 per week and €900 per month. While most of the online games are replicas of the instant win or draws available in retail outlets, there are two that are entirely new and present an exclusive online playing opportunity, namely, Instant Lotto and Mini Keno. The online games can be played on mobile devices any time, any place and anywhere so they raise issues for those disposed to gaming addiction that are less likely to arise in a traditional retail agent transaction.
The national lottery regulator should outline the measures that have been taken to protect vulnerable players and to replicate the types of controls on purchases in traditional shops. It would also be helpful to get some data from the regulator on the profile and patterns of online purchases of national lottery products. The impact of the rapid roll-out of online lottery products must be assessed independently and objectively.
We would also like to know if the national lottery regulator is monitoring the huge growth in online lotto sites with no links to the actual licensed national lotteries.
They offer punters the opportunity to gamble on the results of lotteries all around the world.
These sites have no obligations to contribute towards good causes. All one has to do is google "Play Lotto Online" and one will get 16.5 million hits in less than one third of a second. This has huge implications for how people play national lotteries and I make no bones about the fact that they are a huge threat to the retail agents I represent who are selling legitimate tickets that deliver funds to good causes. The UK has proposed new legislation to make it a requirement for any gambling site wishing to advertise its services within the UK and accept UK customers to hold a licence issued directly by the UK Gambling Commission rather than the current position whereby the sites can operate with licences issued by a whitelisted gambling jurisdiction. RGDATA respectfully suggests that the committee should investigate if we should do something similar here.
The growth in agents is another area I would like to touch on. The national lottery intends to create a national lottery everywhere model, which will increase the opportunities for the public to buy lottery tickets in a host of new outlets and at new opportunities. This will be achieved in part through deals with online payment services operators that have configured their devices to print out lottery tickets. This will lead to a rapid explosion in the availability of the national lottery - a national lottery everywhere model with the lotto potentially being available in bookshops, cafes, restaurants, barbers - basically any outlet that has a point of sale terminal. Has the regulator assessed the impact of such an extension of the availability of the national lottery? How has he equated it with the licence condition for the operator of the lottery not to apply different commission structures to retail agents?
I refer to the national lottery and licensed premises. It was a condition of the national lottery licence that no agents would be appointed in licensed premises where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. This recognises two issues - first, the national lottery is different to ordinary gaming; it is operated under a State licence and aims to generate money for good causes. It also recognises the risk of associating gaming with alcohol. The irony is that the growth in online national lottery activity has effectively rendered the prohibition on sales of tickets in licensed outlets to be a fiction. Players can now log onto their phones and play any one of 21 instant games in the pub subject only to the daily spending limit. Has the regulator a view on this issue? What research has his office carried out on the patterns of use and implications of such gaming?
It is important that the national lottery regulator increases its public profile and engagement with stakeholders in respect of the important role that the Oireachtas has conferred on it. The regulator needs to demonstrate effectiveness in promoting the protection of the public interest in its operations and formal engagement by the regulator with the committee will be a key part of providing clarity on the regulator’s role and function. Ideally, the regulator should use its website and other media fora to provide details of reports on any technical outages involving the national lottery; measures taken by it to protect player interests; the extent to which it has approved or rejected new games submitted by approval by PLI; the research that it has undertaken on gaming patterns and habits in Ireland and how these feed into the regulatory function; the types of approvals sought for new agents to be appointed; details of any gaps in the regulatory protection for the public necessitated since the agency was set up; details of how it expends resources; and details of consumer complaints made and resolved concerning the national lottery.
RGDATA fully accepts that the regulator has a new brief and seems not to have had a significant level of expertise within his office from people formerly involved in regulating lotteries. There has, therefore, been a steep learning curve. At the same time, PLI has ramped up considerably its expansion of the national lottery and its plans to become a €1 billion business and it is important that all stakeholders, including the public and retail agents, are confident that an active regulator is on the job. I thank the committee and I am happy to take any questions.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has RGDATA had direct engagement with the regulator?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was there further engagement following that meeting?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Buckley listed a number of measures the regulator should take in her closing remarks, including reports on technical outages and so on. Is she saying that none of that information is available or communicated to stakeholders?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Buckley for attending. She said the regulator should replicate the types of controls on purchases in traditional shops. Will she outline those controls? Is a protocol in place?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a limit?
Ms Tara Buckley:
The shops I represent feel strongly they were part of building the national lottery brand. They felt it was a responsible brand and they were engaged with it. They felt it was good because it provided money for good causes. The retail agents and the national lottery built a good brand together, which was worth a great deal of money when the Government went to sell the licence.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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But if I go into one of the shops RGDATA represents and ask for 100 lotto tickets, is there a limit on the number that can be sold? Is there a protocol in place to warn me of the dangers of gambling or is it the case that if I want to buy 1,000 tickets, I can?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the age limit?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does RGDATA use mystery shoppers in the way other agencies use them to monitor alcohol and tobacco sales? Has somebody under age tried to buy lotto tickets? Have people been convicted of selling to people under age?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge RGDATA does not but the organisation represents various shop owners who may have encountered a brush with the law because somebody came in who looked like he or she was aged 23 but was only 17. Is Ms Buckley aware of anybody testing the system to see if people are buying tickets under age?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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State agencies send staff into shops to ensure compliance with age restrictions on the sale of cigarettes. Is Ms Buckley aware of anybody doing the same for lottery ticket sales?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Buckley said the new operator should report on the technical outages and the online environment avoids many of the controls in the shops but also reduces the margin RGDATA members make from selling these products.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that but Ms Buckley said RGDATA's members have a difficulty with the national lottery, which is raising money for good causes, doing that online and taking away customers who might have historically bought scratch cards in shops as an impulse purchase when buying the paper, cigarettes and so on. They might now use the app on their phone to play these games in the pub or at home and RGDATA members are not generating whatever margin is available to them from those tickets.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Of course, and I expect Ms Buckley to.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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One of the gripes is there are games available online that are not available in scratch card format. Is it just two games that are not available?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There are 21 games and 19 are available via scratch card.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Buckley referred to 21 instant games. I presume they are games where players win immediately as opposed to waiting for the lotto draw on Wednesdays and Saturdays.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So 19 of the 21 games are available in both formats and two are only available on the app. The app has a high spending limits at €75 per day, €300 per week and €900 per month. Is Ms Buckley concerned that they are this high?
Ms Tara Buckley:
We believe we played our part in building a well-respected brand and we are concerned that things are happening that might damage it. Our concern is there is activity taking place which is straying away from the original intent of the national lottery.
Our concern would be that nobody is monitoring, assessing or delivering reports on the impact of the changes.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There is concern about the growth in agents. There are a certain number of people who will spend a certain amount of money and that would be diluted across more outlets. I presume not all members have lotto terminals. Of those that do, I presume that while most would like to be the only show in town, the more agents there are the less they will receive. Is it the view of Ms Buckley that bookshops, cafes, restaurants and barber shops are not suitable places for lotto tickets to be sold?
Ms Tara Buckley:
Our concern is that different types of agents are being created. We fought very hard to retain the retail agents' margin. The Minister and the House made sure that the retail agents' margin was protected. We would be concerned that they are creating other types of agents which do not receive the same margin. It is, therefore, in their interests to push business to the other type of agents who do not receive the same margin. It is a business matter.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the current margin?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Has it always been 6% or has it fallen over time?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It has been 6% since 1986 or 1987, when the lotto was established.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The current operators receive 6%, but there is no guarantee for new operators.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is lotto light?
Ms Tara Buckley:
We call it lotto light because it will be what will be available through any establishment that has a payment service machine. Anyone who has a payzone machine will be able to offer lotto light. It is called lotto light because the full suite of products is not offered, rather it is limited to the national lottery draw and a small range of products.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How will the suite of products available in traditional lenders differ from what is suggested might happen if services are offered in a barber shop or elsewhere?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Will they be able to purchase products such as lotto, lotto plus, euromillions and other such products?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That has not happened yet.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Buckley aware of any outlet currently offering the lotto light model, as she calls it?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Buckley aware of anybody actually selling-----
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. It was not referred to, but one of the outlets about which Ms Buckley is concerned are post offices. A postal services Bill will come before the Seanad today. We regularly discuss how we want to enhance the role of post offices, but Ms Buckley has concerns that post offices-----
Ms Tara Buckley:
No, we do not have concerns about it. Rather, we are concerned about the different treatment of different types of agent. We are concerned that business would be diverted from our members. Given that the legislation stated retail agents' commission would be ring-fenced, we believe all forms of retail agent should receive the same commission.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Buckley is sticking up for post offices, barber shops and bookshops. I am trying to tease out the issue. I have to speak on a Bill in the Seanad. We have a fairly good idea of the views of the witnesses from the summary. They are concerned about the proliferation of outlets, how gambling has traditionally been managed and that the more things go online the more underground they become. The system then becomes more insidious and it is more difficult for people to see a problem. If somebody buys 1,000 lotto tickets, it is fairly evident that there may be an issue, something which is not apparent when he or she does the same on a phone. The regulator is very new. Is it the view of Ms Buckley that she would like to have better engagement with him?
Ms Tara Buckley:
It is more that we think there are things the regulator should be doing. If one compares the website of the UK regulator to that of the Irish regulator, it appears that the UK is more proactive. It produces reports, carries out investigations and monitors the process. As the regulator develops here, we would like it to develop along those lines. We need to know that there is a good and authoritative independent figure scrutinising what is happening. It is in our interests to maintain the integrity of the national lottery and its brand and retain consumer confidence in the national lottery.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Buckley and the commission.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Buckley. I wish to pick up on some of Senator Horkan's questions. I ask Ms Buckley to clarify which retailers are represented by RGDATA. How many retailers does it represent and are they of a mixed size?
Ms Tara Buckley:
We represent independent family-owned shops. Around 90% of our members are in some type of buying arrangement because that is the way the independent sector has emerged. Our members own about 3,500 shops. Some operate under SuperValu, Centra, Spar, Londis, Gala or Costcutter. Our members are in every town and village in Ireland, from supermarkets to smaller stores.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Buckley said the commission earned by retailers is 6%. Does 6% of the sale price of every scratch card sold go directly to the retailer?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The 6% commission also applies to sale of lotto tickets at terminals. Who is responsible for the maintenance of machines?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It owns the machines.
Ms Tara Buckley:
Yes. We turn the lights on, provide a member of staff and open and run shops. It was very important that we maintained our 6% margin. The Deputy must remember that I represent shops throughout the country which are struggling. The national lottery is important because it creates footfall in stores. It is important that stores attract people in, and something like the national lottery is important to our members.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the commission arrangement different for euromillions?
Ms Tara Buckley:
No, my understanding is the commission arrangement is the same. When the licence was sold we spoke with the Minister at the time and made the point to the committee that it was very important for our members that the commission model for national lottery agents was ring-fenced. That was done, which we welcomed.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a 6% margin for euromillions.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the online presence of the lottery. It is a whole new world to me. I visited the website and alternative games popped up such as mini keno and instant lotto. Some 19 of the 21 games on the website are also sold as scratch cards in shops.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are 19 different scratch cards under the national lottery.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The days of winning streak are long gone.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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From the data provided by the regulator, I note 5% of the turnover in 2016 came from online sales. I imagine that is a target for significant growth, given that such a model cuts out retailers. Ticket sales for 2016 were €750 million, up from €670 million in 2015. The figure for draw-based games was €530 million, while scratch cards and online instant win games totalled €220 million. It also stated 95% of sales were retail and 5% were online. Is betting duty payable for online national lottery sales?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I doubt it is. Ms Buckley raised concerns about online gambling and a lack of controls. Gambling control legislation has still not been enacted. Is that an area that can be abused? Online gambling is available from all of the main bookies, a sector which is currently not controlled.
What I was trying to highlight is that somebody today could go on. There is a national lottery in the national lottery app but one could also just Google "Play the national lottery" and be directed to all these sites. Half the time, the punter does not know these sites have nothing to do with the national lotteries of the various countries. One is gambling on the results of a national lottery in any country. There are sites available where one can do this. None of one's money goes to good causes, but when one goes in one might think one is playing the Irish national lottery or the French. However, while one might think one was playing the national lottery and giving some money to good causes, the fact of the matter is that one is not. A huge amount of traffic is going there now. It is not going to the actual national lottery website or app. The traffic is going onto these lotto type platforms.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Who is running those?
Ms Tara Buckley:
Companies based in Gibraltar and other countries. The concern is that one can get a licence through white-listed gambling. These are licences to operate these types of websites. The UK has recognised that this is a threat to its national lottery and started a process to introduce legislation to address it. The UK is considering a requirement to get a licence in the UK if one wants to interact with UK lottery players.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right in saying that the only places online that one can play the actual national lottery games are the websites of those national lotteries, for example, www.lottery.ie?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are customers who buy cards regularly in the shops savvy as to the distinction between the 19 different cards? Are they looking for something in particular? What is the marketing idea behind having 19 different scratch cards? Do most of RGDATA's member shops sell all of them or just the most popular ones?
Ms Tara Buckley:
There are point-of-sale units. If one goes into a newsagent or convenience store, one will see the various games at the point-of-sale unit. It is about variety and different types of games. It is to keep the thing lively and change it as time goes on so that it is not always the same.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a really serious product differentiation. They have diversified to such an extent now that I am flicking through all of the games and do not recognise the vast majority. Presumably, there is a market for each one.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a case for putting a limit on the number of games? If a company wants to introduce a new game, it could then take one of the existing games out of commission. All one is doing by introducing more and more games is seeking to penetrate the market even further and get more people introduced to gambling on a regular basis. That is the net effect of all this. It is a commercial company now with a very direct interest in getting more people in the country gambling. The more regularly they gamble, the better it is. Having 21 different lottery products seems bananas to me.
Ms Tara Buckley:
The point we make is that this is a licence that is being run on behalf of the Irish Government and if that is the case, it is probably the committee that needs to address the issue rather than me. The reality is whether the committee is happy that the type of oversight is happening. Certainly, we believe there should be more transparency about what type of oversight is happening, how these games are being analysed and monitored and how player interests and the public interest are being managed. There is an opportunity with the national lottery regulator to do that work and publish reports for us to see.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it still difficult for a shop to get a lotto terminal?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Not at all?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of investment is required?
Ms Tara Buckley:
The shop has to pay a bond but the reality is that once the new licence operator came in, anybody who wanted a national lottery agent's licence could pretty much get it. In the meantime, the market had consolidated. Many very small shops had closed, including many retail newsagents, so most places selling the national lottery were the bigger stores in the middle of towns and they already had the agency.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the percentage of coverage increasing now all the time? Is there a proliferation of lotto availability in shops?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Buckley to the committee. The cost of the lotto panel went up. Has Ms Buckley seen an increase or reduction in sales since the cost of the panels increased?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There has been an increase in the number of numbers also, which means one has less chance of winning. Is that right?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This has all happened since the new operator took over.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have retailers' sales gone down since the new operator took over or have they gone up?
Ms Tara Buckley:
When it first came out, there were mixed reviews from our members. In the past year, however, the national lottery has established a retail programme and done a great deal of work to assist retail agents in terms of their point-of-sale material and the lotto machines they have in-store. Our members would say the star programme the national lottery introduced has been positive for lottery sales. Consumer sentiment has improved slightly albeit not all over the country. Where it has improved, one also sees people back buying lottery tickets, which they were not buying for a few years when sales of everything were down.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Some of the 21 new instant wins are very addictive like the instant lotto and the mini keno. Ms Buckley says there is a limit of €75 per day. How is one limited to €75?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Off that credit card?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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What if one has two credit cards?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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These are highly addictive. The lotto cannot sell in pubs or where alcohol is consumed, but this is a way around that. A person can play the game while having a pint in the pub. The lottery has found a way around pubs not selling lotto. Is that correct?
Ms Tara Buckley:
The point we have just made is that if anyone out there can monitor and assess this to see who is playing and at what level, it is the national lottery regulator. The regulator is in a good position to monitor this in the best interests of protecting the brand and the interests of good causes. We do not have all of this information but we are aware that it is there. As such, the national lottery regulator should be producing reports on that data and publishing them so that we understand how the games are being played, what sort of money is being spent on them, how much individuals are spending and any other data the regulator can access.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Ms Buckley was very critical of the regulator in her closing remarks.
Ms Tara Buckley:
I would not say I am critical but the regulator is in place. What I am saying is that the regulator was appointed in 2014. He needs to step up his game as it is three years down the road. I understand that time was needed to set up and everything else. All I am saying is that I think the regulator needs to be challenged to start producing data and be more public about what he is doing. For all I know, the regulator may be doing so but when one looks at the website one cannot see reports. We were promised a report on the outages but we have not received one. It would be interesting to know whether a report has been compiled and whether it is possible to make it public. The regulator could be more public.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has the regulator produced public reports since he took over in 2014?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Gambling has become more prominent in this country.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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New ways been found to get around the laws.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Ms Buckley mentioned that there is a proposal to increase sales by introducing a lotto light whether that is through restaurants or any place that has a point of sale.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Buckley saying that one will be able to buy a lotto ticket when one pays one's bill for a meal in a restaurant?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can lotto light be sold in a restaurant that sells wine, beer or whatever?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has Deputy McGrath a further question?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have one question. The regulator's opening statement has been provided to us. It states that the number of retail outlets has increased by approximately 1,500 to 5,200 since commencement of operations under the licence. Was the regulator referring to shops when he referred to the number of retail outlets?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very significant increase. Originally, the figure was 3,700 but it has increased by 1,500, or by 40%, which is significant. Online sales amounted to close to €40 million in 2016, according to statistics.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Buckley think that we need further legislation? She has said that legislation is being introduced in the UK. Ireland has the same operator as the UK.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The UK has more stringent laws than we do. Is Ms Buckley saying we need more legislation to control the sale of games and tickets?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Buckley saying they have used the national lottery to open avenues of sales?
Ms Tara Buckley:
Separate Gibraltar-based gambling organisations have spotted that they can sell people a ticket to gamble on a lottery anywhere in the world and present it to people as if they are buying a ticket for that lottery. One is not because there is no association with the actual lottery. The UK is looking at making sure that if one presents an opportunity to play the UK lottery in the UK to a UK citizen that one needs a licence from the UK Gambling Commission.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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For the record, half the increase in the number of retail outlets relates to post offices. They have been extended from approximately one third of post offices to all post offices, which accounts for half the increase, or half the 1,500 additional outlets since the licence was awarded.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Ms Buckley mentioned that outages took place in 2015 and 2016 where computers shutdown.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Do we know whether anybody suffered a loss due to the outage? Could some people have lost money due to the outage?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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They could not do so.
Ms Tara Buckley:
One could not sell them anything, so that is why the draw was cancelled. There was a concern that confidence would be lost in the technical platforms used by the national lottery. It is one of the jobs that the regulator has. We would have liked to have seen his report on the reasons for the outage.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Buckley say there was another outage?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Buckley say a draw took place?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Did people get their money back?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Could one not buy a ticket?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Did anyone buy tickets earlier?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We think they were put in. Does Ms Buckley know that for sure?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Has a back-up system been put in place since the outages occurred?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There has been no independent report.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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RGDATA has not seen it. I thank Ms Buckley for her attendance.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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In view of the fact that this session has finished earlier than planned. I propose that the committee suspends for a few minutes before commencing the second session. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Liam Sloyan, national lottery regulator, and Mr. Derek Donohoe, deputy regulator. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
I invite Mr. Sloyan to begin his opening statement.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
I thank the committee for inviting me to provide an overview of the operations of the national lottery. At the outset, and to put my presentation in context, I consider it useful to set out the respective roles of the operator and the regulator, which are set out in the national lottery Act 2013, and the licence to operate the national lottery. Under the Act, the operator has "the sole purpose of operating the National Lottery in accordance with the terms and conditions of the licence". The operator must report to the regulator on its activities and it must appear before this committee when requested to do so. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform awarded a 20-year licence to the operator, Premier Lotteries Ireland, PLI, on 27 February 2014 and PLI began operating the national lottery on 30 November 2014.
I was appointed as the first regulator from 17 November 2014. Prior to that, the Minister acted as regulator. Since establishment, we have put in place an expert team to regulate the market. Our team includes regulatory, risk management, audit, accountancy, psychology and legal expertise. I am an actuary with more than 25 years experience working in regulatory areas in the private and public sectors. I am joined today by the deputy regulator and head of audit and finance, Mr. Derek Donohoe, who is a former partner in a leading Irish accountancy practice with significant experience of auditing, forensic accounting, corporate governance and compliance.
The functions of the regulator under the Act are to procure the holding of the national lottery; to monitor and enforce compliance by the operator with the Act and the licence; to exercise enforcement rights of any trade mark of the national lottery; to consider for approval certain matters relating to the national lottery, including schemes for national lottery games; and to manage and control the national lottery fund.
In carrying out these functions, the regulator’s objectives are probity, participant protection, sustainability and, subject to the foregoing, maximising returns for good causes. Accordingly, the regulator monitors and enforces compliance by the operator with the Act and the licence and considers - and approves or declines to approve - proposals relating to certain matters received from the operator. Where an operational matter does not require approval and does not breach a term of the Act or the licence, this is a matter for the operator. I hope the committee will understand that, in my presentation, we may at times only be able to speak in general terms. This is because, like other regulators, our role requires that we respect commercially sensitive and confidential information.
In relation to compliance by the operator with the requirements of the Act and the licence, the regulator continuously monitors the activities of the operator.
Such monitoring includes oversight of data and systems of the operator. This is real-time access and includes, for example, monitoring sales and cash flows. It also includes oversight of the independent control system, which duplicates the activities of the operator's business system and provides an important verification tool. We carry out reviews of the operator's processes and controls. For example, we have conducted reviews of the operator's processes for risk management, anti-fraud, prizes management and fitness and probity. We have reviews of specific matters, such as technology outages. We receive and review of regular reports from the operator, including management reports, reports on IT performance and trading reports. We monitor those. We review arrangements for and the output of the operator's internal and external audits. An area on which we are very focused is the ongoing review of online play, including the controls set out in the licence, but also play activity. We get data on this from the operator regularly.
Our oversight informs our considerations when proposals put to us by the operator are being assessed for approval. In doing this work, we have overseen enhancements in a number of areas, including risk management, internal audit, governance of information and communication technology and controls for online play.
With regard to proposals from the operator, we consider requests for approval of certain matters, which, under the Act and the licence, require the approval of the regulator. Such matters include codes of practice for advertising and promotion, sales, participant relations and employee vetting, in addition to proposals relating to schemes for lottery games and third party providers.
In total, the operator has submitted 69 requests for approval. These were considered in accordance with the Act and the licence, and on 60 of the occasions further information was sought by the regulator or the operator chose to submit amended requests for approval, or both. Ultimately, 59 submissions received from the operator have been approved.
A key function of the regulator is to manage and control the national lottery fund. We review weekly detailed financial reports and receive and disburse funds as provided for in the licence. Under the licence, the amount allocated to good causes is equal to 65% of the difference between total net sales and the amount in respect of prizes. In 2016, €218.9 million was transferred for good causes, €7 million of which related to sales in previous years. In 2015, €193.3 million was transferred in respect of good causes.
Reports we have received from the operator in respect of 2016 include the following in regard to the operation of the national lottery. In 2016, 1.4 million people played lottery games on a regular basis, representing more than 40% of the adult population, and almost 70% of the adult population played the game occasionally.
Ticket sales for 2016 amounted to €750 million. The figure for 2015 was €670 million. Sales for draw-based games amounted to €530 million, while scratch card and online instant-win games generated €220 million. With respect to the sales channel, which includes sales for draw-based games and instant games, 95% of sales were retail, while 5% were online.
With regard to the retail estate, the number of retail outlets increased by approximately 1,500 to 5,200 since the commencement of operations under the licence. Around half of the increase relates to the availability of lottery games being extended from approximately one third of post offices to all post offices, including all sub-post offices. It is noted that most of the increased retail estate provides a restricted service in terms of the range of games and the options available. Of course, it is important to note the same controls in respect of probity and player protection and all the rules set out in the licence in respect of retailers apply equally in respect of the new outlets.
With regard to systems availability in 2016, over the whole network, terminals were available to sell tickets 99.9% of the time on average. Availability of website services varied from 99.6% of the time to 99.8% of the time.
I hope that the presentation has been helpful for the committee in providing an overview of the operations of the national lottery and of the role of the regulator of the national lottery. I look forward to answering members questions.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Sloyan and Mr. Donohoe for their attendance and their opening remarks on behalf of the regulator. The regulator is the policeman for compliance with the licence. That is a key aspect of its work. How many staff has the regulator in the delegates' office.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Eight posts are filled. What is the budget of the regulator?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that funded out of the licence or by the central Exchequer?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is funded directly.
Have there been any breaches of the licence conditions by the operator since it took control in late 2014?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Sloyan elaborate on the phrase "no findings of any breaches"? If he identifies issues, does he give the operator an opportunity to correct or amend one of its practices? Is the issuing of a finding a formal process? It may not get that far.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
We conduct a number of reviews and analyses of issues as they arise and we identify areas that may need to be addressed. On the question of whether that constitutes a breach of the licence, I said there has been no finding. It would not be appropriate, as a regulator, to indicate otherwise because, as a regulator, one needs to be open to the possibility-----
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Sloyan has found no evidence of a breach.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the question of the proportion of the sales proceeds that goes towards good causes - this would be governed by the licence - Mr. Sloyan might clarify the current procedure for the committee. In his opening remarks he said, "Under the licence, the amount allocated to good causes is equal to 65% of the difference between total net sales and the amount in respect of prizes". Is there a minimum percentage of sales that must go towards prizes?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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At least 50%.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has that percentage fallen since the new operator came into place? What was the percentage devoted to prizes for the customer under the old regime?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, there was no reduction in the percentage of sales proceeds paid out in prizes.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The licence requires at least 50% to be paid out in prizes, however. Is this a proportion of net sales?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Net sales is gross sales minus certain costs.
Mr. Derek Donohoe:
On occasion, there are returns. A ticket that is sold might be issued in error for some reason. It might have the wrong numbers or the player might change his mind, in which case there is a period in which he can return the ticket. Therefore, total net sales are sales minus those returns.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. In 2016, just under €219 million was transferred for good causes, €7 million of which related to sales in previous years. In 2015, the €193 million was transferred in respect of good causes. Therefore, there was a significant increase in the cash amount that went to good causes.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
There was. That is reflected in the increase in sales. If one subtracts the €7 million from the €219 million, it amounts to approximately €212 million, which gives an increase of approximately 10%. This is similar to the level of sales. One is done on the basis of cash flow movement whereas the other is accruals. They will not line up exactly but-----
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the amount going to good causes at an all-time high? I acknowledge the delegates are responsible only since 2013.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ten years ago or whatever.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Was that based on sales?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Was the lengthening of the odds by the addition of two numbers to the main draw something that the sanction of the regulator was required for or was it provided for in the licence?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It required approval. The chances of winning the jackpot went from over 8 million to one to something like 10.7 million to one. Is that correct?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Sloyan feel that was adequately explained to the public and that there was an adequate awareness campaign to make people informed that the odds of winning were significantly reduced?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Was there a corresponding reduction in the prospect of winning the lesser prizes?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was the jackpot that was adversely affected.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was one of the 69 requests made for approval to introduce new measures. Ultimately, 59 submissions received from the operator have been approved. Were ten refused or are they still the subject of a request for further information and so on?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
Some were withdrawn. On 60 of the 69 occasions we asked for further information. The information we asked for was indicative in some cases of issues we had. On some occasions amendments were made to the proposal. On others the proposal was just withdrawn. Occasionally, there have been proposals refused.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Sloyan at liberty to give us information on the type of proposals that were refused?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
I need to be careful when speaking about the operator's business plans. I would refuse a proposal where I have concerns about our objectives under the Act, such as player protection, probity, sustainability and funds for good causes. Where I take a view that the risks for any of those objectives are excessive I am prepared to refuse and have refused.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the regulator subject to FOI requests?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does commercial sensitivity come into play?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ten have been refused. Mr. Sloyan heard the exchange earlier with Ms Buckley from RGDATA on the issue of the number of products. There are 21 different products now, 19 of which are available in shops and online and two are available exclusively online. Is there a limited number of lottery products the operator can bring to the market? Does it require the regulator's approval every time it brings in another product?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
It requires our approval every time. The Act provides for approval of a scheme for lottery games, which is the approach used in the UK, whereby the regulator effectively approves rules and as long as the operator adheres to those rules it can introduce a new game that adheres to the framework. To date, we have not approved any scheme for lottery games so any new game requires approval.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How many has the regulator approved?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are 21 on the market through this operator.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How many retail games are there? I could not keep up with the 21. How many are there?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are a number of them a variation of the draw?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Scratch cards, lotto and Euromillions are retail games. Is there anything else?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Are some of them time limited? Do they expire? Are some of them licensed for six months or eight months or for a season, such as winter or summer, or do they all last forever?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Sloyan supply the committee with a list of every game, when it started and when it stopped, since the regulator's inception for our own understanding of what is happening?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Under the current licence, the regulator has approved approximately 30 new games?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some are temporary.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are time limited.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are many of them new scratch cards? Are most of them variations of the draw?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am officially lost. How many scratch cards are there currently on the market through the national lottery?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There are 20.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Cullinane. There are 20.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We had 19 and 21 referred to in the earlier presentation and now it is somewhere in between at 20.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What are Mr. Sloyan's views on the proliferation of games available online and how it interfaces with gambling control, the need for responsible advertising and promotion and the need to have proper controls in place? What role does the regulator have in that area, if any?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
It is an area we are very much focused on. The licence includes controls on online play. We oversee the implementation of those controls, which include the spending limits. In addition, we have overseen the introduction of further controls by the operator, which include a player protection panel that analyses the data returns in respect of online play. There tends to be a hierarchy of risk in these types of things. Draw based games are probably the lowest risk; scratch cards and online play is riskier. The operator analyses the various returns and data on online play in order to address any issues it sees in the activities. If it considers there is play activity that indicates a problem, it writes to advise the player of the tools that are available to assist him or her. They include player exclusion. Players can self-exclude themselves and they can set their own limits. They can contact various bodies for help.
In addition, we limit the approval in respect of online games. The approvals are time-limited and we receive player protection reports each quarter from the operator which reports on online activity and informs our consideration of any roll-over of approval regarding online playing.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are the witnesses satisfied with allowing more games to be approved, retail outlets and online activity in terms of lottery gambling to take place? Do they have any remit to control that overall, given the potential societal impact?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My observation is that over the past number years, especially under the new operator, the number of games, platforms and distribution channels has grown significantly. They are everywhere, which has consequences for society. It is constantly in people's faces. Gambling can destroy people's lives – not necessarily this type of gambling, but more generally.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
I can assure the committee that we take all of that very seriously. When we receive a request for approval for a game, we assess the player protection risks against the academic literature and advice. We have engaged a leading world expert on child play and gambling to advise us on games and assessments. We take great care to oversee the controls and consideration of games for approval.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the witnesses felt the 2013 Act needed to be changed or strengthened they would let that be known.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. It seems that since the Houses of the Oireachtas passed legislation on the lotto, things have changed completely and the company has found new ways to increase its sales. We have only heard from Ms Buckley about sales. I can now sit in a pub where lottery sales are prohibited, but the company has found a way around that. People can sit in pubs to their hearts' content and lose €75 a day. Can the witnesses explain how the €75 limit operates?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A player could register under a second name.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There is protection against it.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That does not protect the client; rather, it protects the payout master.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The paymaster does not have to pay out.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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A person could have lost €75 every day for days and then cannot accept a payout because he or she got around the system by registering twice, three times or whatever.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Have there been payouts that were not made?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Were there wins that were not paid out?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As we heard from Ms Buckley, many accounts are set up outside the country and are not based in Ireland, but rather in Gibraltar or elsewhere. Players are based outside of the jurisdiction and the lotto does not have to pay out.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How would the lottery prove that? If a person is playing on a phone on a beach in Spain, wins and then returns home, how does he or she claim a prize?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There are no blocks similar to those that mean one cannot watch certain television channels in certain countries. If one wants to use the national lottery app in a foreign jurisdiction, is that possible or is it blocked?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Where does the money that is supposed to be paid out but is not go? Who receives it?
Mr. Derek Donghue:
A player who had registered was not resident in the State. The person submitted a claim for a win and had to provide identification and details. When identified as being outside the State, the person was refunded the money spent playing up to that point in time but not paid the winnings.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If a person wanted to lose money outside of the State, was that okay? If a person kept losing money outside of the State we would not know about that
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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People use addresses inside the State.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The guidelines must not be clear if a client was told a prize could not be claimed because an address outside of the State was given. Would that be true?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The website allows people to put in a foreign address and register.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How does a person do that? I understood the person to whom the witnesses referred gave a foreign address which was accepted.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The person gave a false address.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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As we heard from Ms Buckley, the national lottery is planning a major expansion, in terms of extending the lotto to points of sale at restaurants, cafes, barber shops or wherever there is a point of sale. How will this operate? Obviously, the commission will be lower and, therefore, more beneficial to the national lottery.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will it be the same suite of products?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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So the regulator has approved the rolling out of this to other outlets.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The products cannot be sold in cafes, bars or restaurants where there is alcohol.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the regulator believe the Houses of the Oireachtas should bring forward legislation to help put in place more barriers or help control the gambling addiction in the country at present?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
My role is with regard to the national lottery only. The Act and the licence are relatively new and we are working with them and using them as best we can to protect the interests of players and protect the probity and sustainability of the lottery. We are satisfied to continue on this basis.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Comparing regulation of the UK and Irish lotteries, we see no details on the amount raised for good causes in Ireland but the UK regulator has such details. There is no information on ticket allocations or the integrity of the games in Ireland but there is in the UK. The same operator runs the two lotteries. There is no verification of the system by the Irish regulator but there is by the UK regulator. No record is kept of licence breaches in Ireland but there is in the UK. There is only very general material relating to the national lottery licence in the annual reports in Ireland. There is much more stringent regulation in the UK compared with Ireland, but the same operator has both licences. It faces much more stringent regulation in the UK. Does Mr. Sloyan have any proposals to bring the Irish regulator into the same position as the UK regulator?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
We also have very stringent regulation of the operator in Ireland. We are very focused on ensuring the operator complies with all of the terms and conditions of the licence and has all of the appropriate systems in place. We carry out a range of work to achieve this, as I set out in my presentation, including ongoing oversight of its data systems, overview of its control framework, consideration of its reports from internal and external audits and reviews of certain matters as they arise. We apply the regulations very strictly.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We have heard from Ms Buckley there does not seem to be information on why the outages occurred in 2015 and 2016 and what regulations have been put in place to ensure they do not happen again.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
The reasons for the outage in 2015 were published at the time by the operator, which appeared before the committee to discuss them. We engaged with the operator at the time and examined its systems for control and governance of information and communications technology. We oversaw a number of enhancements in this area, including in respect of its reporting and escalation system, its risk management system, its identification of risks and its putting in place an ICT-specific risk management system, with mitigations for each identified risk as required.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Sloyan is stating we heard from the operator, but we did not hear from the regulator with regard to the outage in 2015.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There has been reduction in the money contributed to good causes over a number of years, which has decreased from €205 million in 2013 to €188 million in 2015. There was a peak of €267 million in 2008. The price of the ticket has increased and there seem to be more games but we have seen a reduction in the contribution to good causes.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It increased again in 2016.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the percentage?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Of what remains after the prizes are paid.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is all of the online gaming taken into account?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Online sales account for 5%.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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So point of sale still accounts for 95%.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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So online is not as big a risk as people make it out to be. We have heard very sad cases about people gambling online.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the €1.5 million paid by the national lottery to staff in the regulator's office a percentage or is it the cost of running the office?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Sloyan and Mr. Donohoe. Is it correct that Premier Lotteries Ireland has the licence?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a 20 year licence.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it made up of Ontario Teachers Pension plan, which is the owner of the Camelot group, An Post and An Post pension funds?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It has paid an amount for the 20 year agreement and now it must make a return.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Essentially it is in the business of turning a profit.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sloyan's job is to regulate this. In his opening statement, Mr. Sloyan stated the functions of the regulator under the Act include considering for approval certain matters relating to the national lottery, including schemes for national lottery games. Our job is to test whether there is sufficient regulation. From what I have heard so far I have a view but I have a number of questions to Mr. Sloyan. What does considering for approval certain matters relating to the national lottery, including schemes for national lottery games mean in practice?
When the regulator is considering whether to approve schemes, to what issues must he have an eye?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Protection of participants is one of the objectives.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We will address the protection of participants and walk Mr. Sloyan through some of the products and services offered by the company. Is it true that, in August 2015, two extra balls were added to the drum in the lotto?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The cost increased from €3 to how much?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is more expensive, but there is a lesser chance of winning. Is that fair to say?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is more expensive with a lesser chance of winning.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Sloyan consider that to be acting in the best interests of the user?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. Mr. Sloyan has answered the question that I put to him already by accepting that it is more expensive with a lesser chance of winning.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sloyan is the regulator. If the first product is more expensive and there is less chance of winning, is he satisfied that he has done his job of protecting the consumer?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We will move on.
There was a new lotto scratch card and confusion over whether there were €19, €20 or €21 cards. My information is that it is €20, which is what the company calls a product range. How much do these scratch cards cost? Will Mr. Sloyan talk us through the minimum up to the maximum?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Keep going upwards.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Are there €20 cards?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I would have thought the regulator would have known that. It was a standard question for a regulator. It is a minimum of €1 and a maximum of €20. Does the regulator view it as a problem that scratch cards are being sold for €20?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I asked Mr. Sloyan about his role. There is some confusion and Mr. Sloyan might be able to help me clear it up. He stated that he had to consider for approval certain matters, including schemes. Was his approval of the €20 card required?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The regulator approved it.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So, it was not up to the company.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Sloyan not see a problem with €20 scratch cards? Whatever about €2 scratch cards or people with gambling problems being embarrassed about buying ten, 20 or 30 scratch cards? Being able to buy a €20 scratch card makes it more difficult to protect the consumer. Why was that not one of the regulator's concerns when Mr. Sloyan signed off on this?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What academic literature does Mr. Sloyan mean?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Who undertakes the academic work?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The regulator relies on academic research when making a decision.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Sloyan needed to decide whether to sign off on the €20 and €10 scratch cards, he used the academic research. As the person charged with ensuring that consumers are protected, Mr. Sloyan was comfortable signing off on these cards.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. What about the online presence? It is a major concern for me. There was some confusion around whether the service could be used outside the country and how it worked inside the country. A person can only sign up for one account. How does one do that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Which are?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What else?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A credit card.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it possible to provide a slightly different address with a different credit card and have two accounts?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Sloyan saying that there could be loopholes and he does not want people to know what they are?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not a good position for a regulator to be in.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is what Mr. Sloyan said.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, it is the regulator's job to ensure that any loophole is closed down.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It could be useful were Mr. Sloyan to present the committee with a paper on what the regulator is doing in this regard. The Chairman also asked about how the system worked outside and inside the country and the cap that was applied. In my view, that cap is too high. The issue of the online presence is concerning. We need more information.
What is the Star Store programme?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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This concerns the promotion, advertisement and sale of the products. Who is Mr. Niall Andrews?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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For whom?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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When he tells us that there has been a significant investment of €3 million in the Star Store programme, that is essentially €3 million spent on pushing products.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Deputy about the rules on naming people. He might refer to what is happening-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I can refer to him otherwise. What is his title? He is the sales manager.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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PLI's head of sales is quoted as saying that it will invest €3 million in Star Store. He stated: "The impulse element of the tickets is such a big draw. When they're positioned right, they're talking directly to the customer." He said that the objective of the Star Store programme was to drive sales through growth and profitability in stores by making the national lottery agent central to its success, and that the programme was based on a number of key strategic areas in-store: equipment positioning; product range; availability; display and merchandising standards; promotion; and execution. This company is marketing the products and giving advice to retailers on how they can push sales. There is a significant gambling problem in the State. If the regulator's job is to protect the customer, what oversight role has Mr. Sloyan in respect of what Star Store does?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
Any advertising or promotion that the operator engages in must comply with the code of practice on advertising and promotion, which includes a range of rules.
There is a requirement not to use themes that are attractive to under-age players. There is a requirement not to present playing the lottery and winning in certain ways. As such, there are rules and restrictions on the type of advertising and promotion in which the operator can engage and we ensure they are met.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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From my baseline, desktop research, it strikes me that there is a lack of real oversight and regulation of how the company is pushing its products. The fact that it is engaging a company to push its products is a red line for me. I put it to Mr. Sloyan that it should be a red line for him also.
I have been told that the odds of winning on a scratch card are one in four or one in five. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is the average scratch card? Is it the €2 card?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The odds are one in four. However, if one bought a €2 card and won €2, that would be considered a win. It would not really be one.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement Mr. Sloyan said he could only speak in general terms about some of his work because of commercially sensitive and confidential information. Will he explain what he means by "commercially sensitive" from the point of view of the regulator's work?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Given that this is a company which has had a monopoly for 20 years, how can the information be commercially sensitive?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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For a regulator with oversight of-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A regulator must, on the one hand, look at the public interest and then at what Mr. Sloyan describes as "commercially sensitive information".
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What advice did the regulator receive on balancing the public interest and commercial sensitivity? Mr. Sloyan is coming to an Oireachtas committee. We are the legislators and also accountable to the people. Mr. Sloyan is, in essence, accountable to us. When he says he cannot discuss a lot of stuff because of commercial sensitivity, it could be seen as he does not really want to talk about some issues. I could be unfair in saying that, but I am trying to get at the public interest and how the regulator balances it with that which is commercially sensitive.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will conclude. I thank Mr. Sloyan for his comments. For the record of the committee, I note that I am very concerned about the product range and that there are not sufficient checks and balances to protect citizens against gambling. We need a report from the regulator on the range of cards available, their cost, the online presence and the limitations and protections in place. That is necessary for us to get under the bonnet a little more on this issue. I thank the Vice Chairman for the time given to me.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. We will be coming back to this topic. Everyone who has spoken so far - I have a number of points still to make - has concerns. Does Senator Paddy Burke wish to come back in?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The key issue is the absence of information on the regulator's website. It would be no harm if it was brought up to date. Joe Duffy raises many issues on his "Liveline" show. Recently, he raised the issue of gambling, including online gambling, and had quite a number of people on the programme to discuss it. It was stated there were considerable concerns on the part of customers who complained about alleged upselling by some retail agents associated with the Topaz chain of garages. It was indicated that the national lottery regulator felt the national lottery games could not be upsold by retailers.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am being reminded that this is an allegation against somebody or an entity that is not represented here.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That may be the case, but the regulator said the games could not be upsold by retailers. However, the PLI stated it had legal advice to suggest the games could be upsold. It seems the PLI has a different opinion from that of the regulator, or is it defying the regulator's position on upselling?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
We have written to the operator on this matter and it has made a submission to us which we are considering. On the position in relation to the RTE show, we referred to the clauses in the licence. We did not give a finding at that point. We could only give a finding after concluding our consideration of the operator's submission on the matter.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not concluded, is it?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the findings be published when the regulator has concluded its consideration?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I might ask a few questions with the permission of members. I was not expecting to be in the Chair for the entire session.
Many of the points I wanted to make have been covered by Deputies David Cullinane and Michael McGrath and Senator Paddy Burke. I am an accountant and notice that there is a great deal of financial expertise within the regulator's organisation. However, based on the annual report, there does not appear to be a great deal of expertise from within the gaming or lottery sectors. I am not saying people cannot transition from one job to another, but is there any particular expertise I am missing? Is it fair to say there is an absence of the expertise the regulator might like to have?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I saw that he was a psychologist. Again, we will not name people who are not here. My point is that no one seems to have a background in lotteries or to come from another organisation. We have had a lottery in the country for approximately 30 years, but it seems that everyone on the team is new to the sector. Is that a fair comment?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of online selling, one can play online on an ordinary laptop, as well as on an app. Is Mr. Sloyan saying that app and other online sales account for only approximately 5% of total sales?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that up from a figure of 0% a year ago, or has it been at 5% for three or four years? One imagines that it will evolve over time and be much more prevalent.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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While it might mathematically be a 25% increase, it is from a low base.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Fair enough. I accept that online sales are a small part of it, but one looks at Ryanair which went from booking centres to call centres to online booking. It seems to be the way of the world that most people will move online with most things once they discover them. One can go online and register. To do so, one needs to be 18 years of age, but is there any way of detecting if a person inputs a false date of birth? Is there any requirement to provide a PPS number or upload documentation such as a copy of a passport or birth certificate?
I appreciate that if they win they may be caught, because they will turn up and it is clear that they are 14 years of age. However, what happens if they lose? Can they keep losing €75 per day, €300 per week and €900 per month for as long as they like?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that possible now?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How were those checks done?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So the regulator starts verifying people if and when they win, is that correct?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So of the 2,700 checks that were applied to people who had won, every one of them was compliant, is that correct?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So no single person was non-compliant, except that there was a reference to the person who was abroad.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There were 2,700 checks in relation to age.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Presumably the 2,700 checks were not just dealing with age, but were also dealing with other criteria.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How many of the 2,700 checks that have been done in relation to people winning have provided a result that meant they were giving false data to start with?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay but is it in the region of 5%, 10%, 20% or 50%?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Is it fair to say that if the prizes are a set percentage, or a minimum percentage that they cannot fall below, and the good causes are a minimum percentage of what is left, the only way the operator can make more money is by increasing the volume?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Other than, perhaps, operational efficiencies in what they are doing.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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To pay back the big up-front fee.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So the more money the operator makes, the more money the good causes make. Is that the point Mr. Sloyan is trying to make?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I know it is correct, but is that the point Mr. Sloyan is trying to make?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am suggesting that the only way the operator can make more money - and, ideally, for his purposes or their purposes, recover their costs more quickly or generate a better return for themselves in terms of the significant upfront fee that was paid - is to increase volume. They cannot really do it any other way.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. They have no scope in the margin because, as we heard from RGDATA, that 6% margin would apply to all other new agents, such as post offices, barbers, bookshops and cafés. I will not say café-bars because lottery tickets cannot be sold on licensed premises. However, that does not stop people sitting in a pub from buying online and potentially losing €75 a day if they wanted to. Is that fair comment?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Those limits of €75, €300 and €900 were in the Act.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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They are in the licence?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So Mr. Sloyan cannot recommend to us - I am not saying he would - that those figures are excessive. The sum of €300 a week would be significantly larger than a lot of weekly social welfare payments.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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And Mr. Sloyan does not have any discretion over them?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Michael McGrath covered the rejected proposals but they were generally-----
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
I am sorry, but if I could say something, Senator. When considering approvals for games, we consider all of the controls set out in the licence. For example, we have not just the controls set out in the licence but also other controls that could be put in place. Therefore we have influenced extra controls being put in by the operator to protect players. That is something we will continue to look at when we are looking at the overall risks.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We heard from RGDATA that the age limit is 18 to buy a scratch card or to play lotto, full stop. Is that correct?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does that 18 years age limit apply to buying lotto tickets or Euromillions draws?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I know the HSE goes into bars to see if 17 year olds can buy packets of cigarettes and get tokens for machines. Is there any system in place to do that, to see whether or not retail agents of the national lottery are compliant? Are they asking 17 year olds for proof of ID? Are they checking to make sure? Lots of people who look 21 years of age might only be 16 or 17, depending on how they appear. Is any such programme in place? It is done for cigarettes and alcohol, but is it being done for lotto tickets or scratch cards?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is it being done currently?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Go ahead.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
Our role is to regulate, monitor and enforce compliance with the legislation by the operator, not the retailers. The way the licence works is that the operator then has requirements on it to ensure that retailers comply with their requirements. We are exploring with the operator how they engage in their oversight role with retailers.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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So Mr. Sloyan does not have any oversight role in terms of the retailer, other than through PLI.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I suppose they are regulating the people who are making them more volume. Is that an appropriate relationship, that they are the regulators of their own agents who are effectively making them more money by however more they sell? Would it not make more sense that Mr. Sloyan and Mr. Donohoe would be the regulators of the retailers?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Without getting too convoluted, how has Mr. Sloyan fulfilled that onus on him to review the onus on them?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Sloyan says "other areas", what areas would they be?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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How would they audit prize-giving?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Surely if somebody comes with a winning ticket they are going to want the money. What level of risk is there other than fraudulent tickets?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so Mr. Sloyan may be testing retailers. They may put a ticket through the machine, spot it is a win, keep it and not give it to the person.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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They do exist and are being implemented.
Mr. Derek Donohoe:
There are requirements on retailers based on the retailer authorisations. We would have an awareness of those authorisations and would see what the controls are that are in place there.
We engage with the operator on its sales managers being on site in all retail outlets and the review that they do when they attend at those sites in terms of the presence of age notification cards and training programmes by retailers. We are aware that the operator is currently updating the latter to provide online training so that shops can update their training. We have a progressive situation that is evolving. In the first instance, the operator has an obligation to ensure that retailers comply. We look at the operator to ensure that the operator's systems are in place to ensure that the retailers are compliant.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Camelot a part of the PLI consortium?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Ireland and the UK have the same operator?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Although the company is new to Ireland their common owner is familiar with lottery operations. Is it reasonable to expect Ireland, as a society, to get similar regulation to the UK? The companies that operate in Ireland and the UK are separate companies but have the same owner. Is it realistic to expect that we will soon have similar regulation? Can we expect to have website information like that produced by Camelot in the UK?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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As Senator Paddy Burke mentioned, the Camelot UK website displays a lot more information than the Camelot Ireland or PLI's website. The entities are similar and have the same owner. Presumably, they use the same terminals and provide the same or a similar suite of games. The company produces all of this in the UK. Is it not reasonable and sensible that we get the same information in Ireland? Is that the aim of the regulator?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that the online business is small. Evidence has been given to me that shows people receive a lot of follow-up emails and reminders when draws take place. Is there a lot of that happening? Is it appropriate for people to be constantly bombarded? Perhaps bombarded is too strong a word to describe what happens when one signs up for an app. Everyone is probably almost immune to online marketing at this stage. Is it appropriate marketing? Private entities conduct lots of online gambling. I am sure they are responsible for the vast bulk of gambling losses in this country. Is it appropriate for people to be bombarded with State-sponsored gambling? Are there regulations that govern how often a person can be e-mailed, sent text message or reminders that games are happening or new games are being launched?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I accept they can opt out but perhaps they do not. Perhaps the people who are predisposed to gambling do not opt out. Is it appropriate for people to receive so many reminders to gamble? Gambling is a serious issue.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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As alluded to by other members.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The regulator's office has a member of staff who is responsible for player and consumer protection.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot of anecdotal evidence on the effects that gambling has on the brain and how it releases dopamine. As a result, some people get a buzz from gambling. Some people are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gambling. Should the issuing of constant reminders be regulated and a limit imposed? Perhaps they should not be allowed at all. Perhaps one should be able to opt into receiving messages rather than to opt out.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the PLI exclude people who play too much or lose too often at the moment?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
The literature would indicate that many addiction issues are about a loss of control. To bar somebody from a site might not be the most effective way to get him or her to address his or her addiction. A more effective way is to assist him or her to regain control by providing information on the range of tools and services available.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Can the terms of the 20-year licence be changed during the period? Are they fixed in stone from the first day the contract is signed until it expires?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Within what parameters?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct that nothing can happen if the operator does not want to change the terms?
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
I would not like to rule that out. At the moment we are working with the current licence. We can influence the controls that the operator adopts, as we have been doing, to have extra controls that have not been set out in the licence. We will continue to be able to do so. I see that as a useful way of addressing gaps that need to be addressed.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have read the annual report and discovered that the income amounts to €1.5 million, which is the fee or licence amount that has been provided by the operator. There was a surplus of almost half that amount.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The office receives €1.5 million per year yet only used between €700,000 and €800,000. Is that a designed surplus? Is the surplus due to not having a full complement of staff? Can the regulator explain the surplus?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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New staff joined over various months. The average salary looks relatively low if one divides the amount spent on salaries by the many accountants employed.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Presumably many of the accountants were not in the organisation for the full year.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the regulator anticipate that when his organisation has the full complement of ten that the surplus will be significantly smaller?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the budget produce a particular surplus figure?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There are eight vacancies in the office and ten vacancies have been sanctioned.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What areas are being considered? Reference has been made to a preference for past expertise in the area. Does the regulator anticipate filling the two vacancies? He has said that he is happy with his current team. Does he need more staff?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Did the office have a full complement of ten staff at one stage?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of expertise and general professional grades, is the regulator happy that he has a full complement of staff?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McGrath referred to the ten rejected games. Can the regulator further outline why the games were rejected?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I mean proposals.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Please tell me about the four proposals that were refused. Four proposals did not need to be sanctioned because they were withdrawn and two proposals are ongoing or were being processed at the time the regulator wrote this report. Perhaps people are good at bringing good proposals to the regulator because the rejection rate is quite small. Four proposals were refused out of approximately 69.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Sloyan happy at the increase in outlets from approximately 1,500 when he started? Were they the historic 1,500?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Were they the historic 3,700?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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As such, the reference to "1,500" is to back in 1986 or something?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry. It was an increase by approximately 1,500. The 1,500 have all come in since the new operator came in. While they are on the same margin, can they still sell scratch cards as well?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Can they sell all lotto games? It might be helpful if Mr. Sloyan would write to the committee setting out every game that is available and where. He should include everything that exists, what is available in the new more limited agents, what is available in the full agents, what games are time limited and when they will expire for us to get a fuller understanding. Perhaps not everybody, but a number of us are baffled by the range of games. We have had a good discussion and I thank-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Before the Vice Chairman winds up-----
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is his third time in, but Senator Burke is more than welcome.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Most of the 21 instant games online are based on scratch card games. However, instant lotto and mini keno are played online and they are more addictive than the games which are based on scratch cards. Mr. Sloyan says that from time to time the regulator employs consultants or experts from around the world to help adjudicate on various things. Have they expressed any view on how some of those games are more addictive than others and that larger problems might be associated with them? It may be that more control is required in relation to something like mini keno and instant lotto.
Mr. Liam Sloyan:
There is a range of risk factors that drive the risk presented by a game. They include things like the speed of the game, the odds of a win and things like that. We have assessed all the games we approved with respect to those risk factors, including those two, and those ones were approved.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Are the assessments published from time to time?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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One of the key functions of the regulator relates to the control of the national lottery fund and the paying out of grants to good causes. Who decides on the good causes? It is the Government?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does that happen once a year or more regularly?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The regulator has no role in the allocation of funds or even the auditing of how it is spent. That has nothing to do with the regulator which is really auditing and regulating the operator.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the money transferred once a year or once a week?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Sloyan and Mr. Donohoe for attending our meeting today, for the opening statement and the interaction with members. It was a very comprehensive interaction. We look forward to seeing them again at some stage. It might be helpful if we brought the operator in at some point and discussed how it is getting on in its new role.