Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 16 November 2016

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality

Migrant Crisis: Discussion

9:00 am

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Clare Daly. This morning, we will discuss immigration and the refugee crisis with two groups. We will begin with the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. I welcome Ms Edel McGinley, director of the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, who is joined by Priya, who is undocumented and a leader with Justice for the Undocumented Group, and Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari, who is the policy and research officer with MRCI. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their attendance here to discuss this important issue.

The joint committee has identified immigration and the refugee crisis as one of its priority issues in its 2016 work programme. The purpose of this part of the meeting is to discuss this issue. We will meet representatives of Nasc Ireland, the Irish Immigrant Support Centre, in a subsequent session.

The format of the meeting is that the delegates will be invited to make a brief opening address in whatever format they have decided, which will be followed by a question and answer session. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Edel McGinley to make her opening statement.

Ms Edel McGinley:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss immigration reform and in that context to discuss the regularisation of undocumented migrants.

The Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, is a national organisation working with migrants for more than 15 years. We have been working with undocumented migrants from our inception and we work with very vulnerable sectors of the labour market, that is, restaurants, agriculture, fishermen and domestic work. These are at risk sectors where undocumented migrants are working.

This is the third time we have come before the committee to discuss this issue. Last year, the committee made a recommendation on regularisation. The then Chairman of the committee, who is now the Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy David Stanton, stated:

The Joint Committee has held meetings this year relating to both the migrant crisis and the issue of undocumented migrants in Ireland... The committee was told that the current situation could be addressed through a once-off, time bound regularisation scheme which would give undocumented migrants an opportunity to regularise their situation... The committee believes that these are reasonable recommendations and strongly recommends their introduction. We have written to the Minister for Justice and Equality this week outlining same and we look forward to her response.

There was no response to this recommendation. The Dáil was dissolved in February 2016 and the matter did not progress. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child reviewed Ireland's progress in respect of its international commitments and it recommended to the State that all children are entitled to the full protection and implementation of the convention, irrespective of their parents' legal status. It recommended that Ireland "Expeditiously adopt a comprehensive legal framework which is in accordance with international human rights standards" and that it provide for "formal procedures for conferring immigration status on children and their families who are in irregular migration situations". That was a key recommendation of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child earlier this year.

As the Thirty-first Dáil rose, there was cross party support for this issue. We have the support of more than 50 bodies, including business, trade unions, civil society and political organisations, on this issue. There is broad support for this issue both in the House and in the broader civil society.

We have been working with undocumented migrants for a very long time and have worked with more than 6,000 undocumented migrants since our inception, and 700 this year. Our economy is improving and our growth projections are healthy. There is falling unemployment and identifiable labour and skills shortages are beginning to appear in the labour market. This year, for the first time, we have returned to positive net inward migration, that is more people coming to Ireland than have left. It is in that context that we are discussing the issue because we need to put in place transitional measures which will help respond to this labour and skills shortages. My colleague Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari will explain that people are doing jobs. It is important that we address this burning issue now.

What we have learned in the past number of years is that undocumented migrants are more vulnerable to exploitation, poverty and social exclusion. They encounter significant barriers in terms of accessing services. It is not possible to accurately determine the number of undocumented people in the State, but it is possible to make an informed estimate. Members will see at the end of the presentation that we have given a footnote on how we came to these particular numbers. We estimate there are between 20,000 and 26,000 undocumented migrants in the State and of that between 2,000 and 6,000 are undocumented children. That is untenable. Many people have been here a very long time, working, living, contributing to the economy and supporting themselves and their families.

They encounter significant barriers in terms of accessing services. They are also fearful of reporting to the authorities. We know of people who have had break-ins or burglaries which they have not reported because they are afraid of being detected.

The people we are talking about here are just the same as the undocumented Irish in the United States. Obviously this is an issue that is in the news at the moment, particularly in the context of recent developments in the US and I know it is something about which Members of the Houses and the Government are concerned. We would argue that the Government also needs to be concerned about undocumented people here which would demonstrate a commitment to the issue and add strength to its representations in the United States.

I will now hand over to Priya who will tell us about her situation here.

Priya:

Good morning. My name is Priya and I am representing the Justice for the Undocumented group in Ireland which has over 1,500 members. For over six years, Justice for the Undocumented has called for regularisation and we want to work with the State to make this happen.

I am from Mauritius and the mother of two teenagers who are attending school here. I have been in Ireland for eight years. I live in Dublin 9 and have two jobs as a cleaner. I am paying tax. My children are getting an education which is very important.

I am sorry but I am a little nervous. This is my first time -----

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Take your time.

Priya:

I am very active in my church and my community.

I came here as a student. I was working in the morning and studying in the evening for a master's degree in information technology and business. I failed one of my exams so I could not continue with my education. I lost my visa. When my children joined me here it was hard. I was juggling lots of things and trying to get back into the system but I could not do so. I tried everything.

For four years I was legal but after that, because I failed my exams, I could not get a visa and became undocumented. Since then, I have tried everything to get back into the system. My children are doing well in school. They have friends here and do not want to go back to Mauritius. Everything I do is for my children. I am trying hard for them. My daughter is 16 and is in transition year. Her teachers and friends do not know that she is undocumented. She cannot tell them because she is afraid they might talk. She keeps quiet. It is a big secret. We know many children like her who need to hide their true situation. It is stressful for them, mentally and physically. They are young but they worry about their future and whether they will be able to move forward. It is really difficult for my daughter and for all of the children who are in the same situation in Ireland. It is having a negative effect on their mental health. I hope this committee will listen to the UN presentation and take care of and protect our children.

My son is 17. He completed his leaving certificate last year and is studying business at college. We are paying international fees for him. His results were very good but he is worried about his future and whether he will ever be able to work here in Ireland. We do not know if he will be given the right to work in Ireland but we can fix that if this committee helps us. He is worried. He is not talking about it because he is a man. At 17, they do not talk - they keep it inside but I know that he is worried about his future because he is studying very hard.

Myself and my husband are both working. My husband is a qualified accountant. We both have a good education but have been working in low paid jobs, which is tough. We are highly educated but cannot work at good jobs. My children do not want to go back home because it is not for them anymore. It is a distant memory now. Home for them is Ireland. Myself and my husband also love Ireland. After eight years, we are rooted here. When we were preparing this speech we were laughing because my daughter is a true Dub. She speaks like a true Dub. She does not feel like a Mauritian. She is Irish. I am just trying to regularise my status in Ireland. I want to secure my kids' future and continue to contribute to Ireland.

We are the same as the undocumented Irish in the United States and are asking for the same thing. I am here on behalf of the thousands of undocumented migrants in Ireland. We ask the members of this committee to write to the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on our behalf seeking the introduction of a regularisation process. We cannot fix this problem without this committee. Its members must be our voice and must speak up for us. We are paying tax and are part of the community. We are just asking to be recognised.

I will now hand over to Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you Priya.

Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari:

I would like to introduce the main findings of our research paper entitled Ireland is Home which is the second wave of research considering the issue of irregular migration in Ireland. I believe all committee members have received the infographic that we have produced. I have met a number of members of the committee in recent months but if anyone requires further clarification, the footnote at the end of our submission contains my contact details.

Our findings are based on a survey of more than 1,008 undocumented migrants. The sample is as representative as possible, given that the exact number of such migrants is not known. Our research found that undocumented migrants have been in Ireland for a long time. Over 20% have been here for more than ten years, while more than 84% have been here for at least five years. Obviously, the average length of stay has been extended since we conducted our survey. A full 89% of those surveyed are working and 66% of them have been in the same job for more than two years, showing a long established connection with their employers. We found that 69% of them are in full-time employment and are mainly working areas such as food, accommodation, domestic and care work, cleaning and maintenance. They are working in really valuable areas of the services sector which allows our economy to grow.

On the basis of our research and our work, we have introduced a proposal for a regularisation scheme in the State. It is important to note that currently there is no legal process for undocumented migrants to gain status in the country. If somebody is undocumented, there is no legal procedure under which he or she can apply to come forward and ask for their case to be considered. The only process in place is through an appeal of a deportation order. The committee will agree that a deportation order entails a very high risk, so it does not facilitate the process of gaining status.

We believe the best solution for undocumented migrants living in Ireland is the introduction of a policy measure or an administrative scheme which will allow for undocumented migrants living here for over four years to have their case heard on a case-by-case basis to secure legal status. Committee members have the details of our proposal in our submission. There are two types of applicants, children and families who have been residing here for three years or longer and what we call ordinary applicants who have been residing here for over four years. There is a serious criminal bar excluding people from the scheme. The outcome of the scheme is a residency permit, or stamp 4, which is valid for three years and renewable. In terms of the administration and cost of this scheme, we estimate that failure to regularise undocumented migrants in the State is currently costing approximately €41 million annually. This is on the basis of unpaid pay related social insurance, PRSI, contributions from those workers and employers each year. The scheme could be income generating. A once-off administrative fee together with immigration registration costs and other visa costs could generate approximately €5 million annually. This is in stark contrast to the €100 million it would cost to deport every undocumented migrant, using the lowest rate cost of deportation. In summary, the scheme would generate over 12 times more than it would cost over the time of implementation.

Aside from the economic benefits of the scheme, we believe it would be in the interest of the Government to know who is resident in the country and to provide for them. It will also put the Government in a stronger position when it is negotiating for immigration and common travel arrangements in the context of Brexit. We also believe we have an obligation to respond to our international commitments, particularly under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and to keep up with best practice across countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD. We must recognise that Ireland has returned to positive net migration this year and that there are growth projections both for the economy and for the population and migration trends. Regularising people who are living in the country is a labour market policy tool. We believe this is a humanitarian response for undocumented individuals, and particularly children, who are living here under constant fears and threats and with the impact of that on their mental health. The situation of undocumented migrants must be considered in tandem with the current migration and refugee crisis. Overall, we believe regularising undocumented migrants will benefit not only the migrants, but also the overall cohesion of society, and will address barriers to integration for all.

To conclude, we ask the committee to renew its commitment to the introduction of a regularisation scheme, to produce a report and to make its recommendation available to the Minister for Justice and Equality, along with a recommendation on implementation. Finally, we call on the Minister for Justice and Equality to respect our international commitments and obligations and to introduce a regularisation scheme as recommended by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. Failing to do so will make us lose credibility on the international scene, particularly as we advocate for the rights of undocumented rights in the US. The solution we are proposing is fair, pragmatic and can benefit all of us.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Before calling on members, I wish to advise the witnesses that it was the committee who made the decision, reflective of our individual and collective intent, on producing a report and building on the case already made. That is what we hope to do. I thank Edel, Priya and Pablo for their contributions. Priya, I understand this is your first such contribution. You did exceptionally well. I thank you for your demeanour and composure through it. In addition, I welcome our guests in the Visitors Gallery.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. I met them a number of weeks ago and they gave a very honest account to me at that meeting. The raw facts of what the witnesses have described portray to the committee an outward consistency, which we too must display. We all know Irish people who have left Ireland so it is important that in advocating for them we show an internal consistency in our approach to people in a similar situation in this country, as the witness has described. To see one's family go through that cycle of fear and live a difficult daily life in which they cannot plan their future and have the opportunities everybody should have illustrates the importance of this issue. I thank the witnesses, particularly Priya, for their honest descriptions.

I am confronted with this issue regularly in my constituency of Dublin West. According to the census, the constituency is the most diverse in the country. I interact with people each week and see the difficulties families experience, even with regard to the most basic things we all take for granted. It is difficult to see people, particularly children, live in that cycle of fear, where they cannot look beyond the next week. Hopefully, this committee can continue the work of the previous committee and progress this matter. The witnesses gave a broad outline and the infographic is very useful, but what has been their interaction with this and the previous Ministers to date? What have the Ministers said to the witnesses in their engagements with them? What do the witnesses believe is stopping the Minister progressing this properly? Have they intensified their engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, the previous chairman of this committee, to press the importance of this matter? Is there a roadmap whereby the witnesses believe it can be pushed through? What do they think has caused the vacuum in trying to progress it?

Ms Edel McGinley:

We met with the Minister under the previous Administration and we had a long conversation on the issue. She recommended that we work with the Department of Justice and Equality to develop proposals on it. That has been done and was concluded last year. Our proposal is with the Minister. We have sought meetings with her under this Administration but we have not been given one yet. We also sought meetings with the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, but we have not secured any either. That is surprising in some respects.

With regard to the space afforded to the issue, the humanitarian crisis is something the State has had to deal with and there has been much focus on that, which is right. We support all the efforts to respond to that issue.

There is much commitment to this and I am not sure if the Minister wants to do a comprehensive scheme. That has always been the communication to us. There has been communication around case-by-case regularisation and this is what we are proposing. I suppose we really need support from this committee, with the Minister. We also know there is a good deal of support at Cabinet level on the issue. It is just about moving it forward in a practical and pragmatic way over the next few months. We must bring this in within the next six months and there is a time-sensitive aspect to this and its implementation. We are proposing a fair and pragmatic approach and it is not very burdensome from an administrative perspective. The proposals are worked out, in some respects, but this needs political will behind it. That is where both Houses will come into it. We need to push this along at a political level.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I do not need to introduce myself as I have met the witnesses on this issue, which is a good sign for Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, as it is a very effective campaigner on the matter. The witnesses may have the impression that this is a bit like groundhog day. They have been before the committee on three occasions, although it is the first time I have been here to meet them. They should not feel as if they are on their own with issues because many of the groups that appear before us have been here before with very legitimate causes. In a way we feel slightly embarrassed that they return and there are limited actions we can take other than to advocate on their behalf.

What would the group like to see in the report to be produced by this committee? I note what was in the previous report and the commitment of the then Chairman, Deputy Stanton. I am fairly satisfied that we will endorse that but we must do more than simply repeating the same report that was issued before. What more should be in it? Fianna Fáil previously introduced a legislative proposal in respect of an earned regularisation scheme. Why would an administrative executive regularisation scheme be preferable to a legislative scheme? Ms McGinley indicated her belief that this would be a time-sensitive issue and I agree with her about that. Am I correct in stating her reason for seeing this as time-sensitive is because March will bring Brexit and issues in respect of that? Is it her fear that Brexit will become an issue as to why this should not be done and we have a window of opportunity to do it now?

I very much support the cause being advocated by Ms McGinley and the Irish public in general supports it. It will very much support it when it is brought to its attention that the kids in the local GAA club or school face some possibility that they could be put out of the country. They regard these people as Irish and part of the community, like any other kid in the school or club. If it is explained to the Irish public, there will be much support for this.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If Ms McGinley or either of her two colleagues would like to participate, they may reply.

Ms Edel McGinley:

We would like to see more detail in the report as the last one was very light in what it said. We would like to see a timeframe and roadmap, along with some parameters and recommendations. It is not that I am concerned about Brexit. Our experience is that regularisation often happens in the first year of a Government. When we get further towards the end of the term, there is more of a risk to the introduction from a political perspective.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Ms Edel McGinley:

It is not really about Brexit and there should not really be a massive impact from that, although it will continually be used as an excuse not to introduce this. Mr. Rojas Coppari will comment on legislation over policy.

Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari:

I will compliment the reply to the first question. Our proposal is very thorough in terms of criteria and timeframe. As Ms McGinley indicated, the report could put in a timeframe for implementation and there would be benefit from a discussion in the Parliament about that.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari:

We considered Fianna Fáil's regularisation Bill, which was very much a mirror of previous proposals from the MRCI. There is no need for legislation to implement this because current ministerial discretion allows for it. Legislating for it would be a lengthy process, although it comes with benefits as legislation is always preferred to policy. Currently we do not have immigration legislation in this country. The Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill has failed a number of times to be implemented. Proposing this on a legislative footing without having overall structural legislation would complicate the issue, particularly when we are under time constraints, as we have said. An administrative scheme would make life easier for the undocumented living here.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witness.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I have a question or perhaps a suggestion more than anything else. I am quite surprised that the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, in particular has not met the group in his capacity in the Department. I am sure, more than likely, it is a scheduling or diary issue as opposed to an unwillingness. I suggest, if the committee secretariat would oblige us in this regard, that we write to the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, and request that he meet the witnesses following our deliberations. We should point out that we will publish a further report under the Chairman's stewardship. Maybe that might create more urgency in arranging the meeting. The previous Chairman of the committee is very committed to the issue and perhaps we need to point out that we would like such a meeting to take place.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is a very useful and positive suggestion. We will act upon it.

Ms Edel McGinley:

Ultimately, it will be the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality who makes the decision.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Of course.

Ms Edel McGinley:

Responsibility with regard to immigration and refugee issues has been delineated. I absolutely welcome the Senator's suggestion and thank him for it. The Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, is responsible more for the refugee side of things.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I am sure we could write to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality as well.

Ms Edel McGinley:

I thank the Senator.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For the record, we will send our report to the Minister. The Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, has already demonstrated his personal commitment.

Ms Edel McGinley:

Absolutely.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is further leverage that I believe the Senator's proposition is seeking to employ. We will take that on board.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I add my support to what they are trying to achieve. I agree wholeheartedly that the current position is poor, nonsensical and irrational. I agree that the Minister is the big challenge and we must make a serious impression on her to look favourably on the requests of the witnesses.

I heard that the Ministers, Deputies Simon Coveney, Paschal Donohoe and Denis Naughten are a bit more positive than most of the rest of the Cabinet which is good because there would be three strong voices in the Cabinet. There have been positive recommendations on two occasions from the justice committee. We would be dishonest if we said the justice committee has the power to change everything because we do not but we can try. It is good that Fianna Fáil says it is prepared to support us given the make-up of the present Government. Fianna Fáil is actually running the Government so that is a good start. Anything Fianna Fáil wants it can get this time around. I am delighted that Fianna Fáil is in support of this. The witnesses are very aware of the challenges and the obstacles. Is there any advice they would give us on how we best progress her desires on this issue?

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would Ms McGinley like to answer that or pass it to one of her colleagues?

Ms Edel McGinley:

It probably goes back to having a debate in the Dáil on this. We are working towards a motion in the Seanad with Senator Billy Lawless on this issue. He is quite supportive and was quite shocked by the situation here given the position of the undocumented Irish in the United States. A motion in the Dáil would be very useful for a discussion on that. There is widespread support but that has not happened. It is something that could be done along with a recommendation from this committee. It is a time-sensitive issue and we only have a small window in which to act. The Deputy works in politics so I am sure he knows better than I what the situation of the Government is. There are two things - the Seanad motion and one in the Dáil. That would be very useful.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is some additional information that we had not shared with the witnesses. The committee, in charting how we would address this issue, also indicated we would not be solely dependent on engagement with representative groups from the NGO sector. We have written and sought an acceptance on the part of the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality to come before the committee to address the issue. That is now scheduled for the coming month.

Ms Edel McGinley:

That is fantastic.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I say this so the witnesses know and we view it as an extra step. She will come before us on other matters relevant to her Department but we have written to her and she has accepted that a significant section of the engagement will be set aside specifically to address these matters. That will be an additional contribution and one we hope will be preparatory in terms of her acceptance of our report, which will follow some short time later.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentation, which was comprehensive and informative. They make very logical and positive arguments for why this needs to be rectified sooner rather than later. There is a consensus that the committee will do all we can and that has been said. We touched on the issue of Brexit a number of times. I appreciate that what the witnesses are coming in to talk about today and Brexit are two very separate issues. If we were to resolve this tomorrow, we would still have undocumented people. That will not end. It would be unfair to ask the witnesses any questions about this situation because none of us knows the dynamics of what it will involve. I have engaged with the sector in the North that is concerned about the impact of a Border and checks. There is also concern about the impact in situations where a migrant worker works in Lifford, for example, but lives in Strabane or lives in Newry and works in Dundalk. This could have a hugely detrimental impact on their lives and their ability to work and stay here. I am taking the opportunity to flag that. It is something that warrants acute attention as we move through these choppy, uncharted waters. When we say it will impact on every aspect and every facet of our lives right across the island, we mean that. This is an example of a sector, community and population where it could have a very direct, adverse impact sooner rather than later.

Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari:

I agree with the Senator. Our immigration policy has always been aligned with the importance of maintaining the common travel area as it is. Brexit can mean everything and anything. We are concerned about maintaining the privilege of the common travel area. In negotiating the maintenance of the common travel area, it is in the interest of the State to know who is resident here. It will strengthen our negotiations by knowing the current population. From a personal point of view, we should not forget we are a sovereign State and that we get to choose policy development with care and consideration for other arrangements that we have. This is an added value and Brexit should not be an excuse for us to fail to meet the needs of the people who are living in our country.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will make a number of points before we bring the first session to a close. There was very understandably significant emphasis on children and the impact on their lives. I marked off some of the points. It is estimated there are 2,000 to 6,000 children of undocumented migrants in Ireland. That is a significant number. I will bunch a number of short questions together. What was the methodology of the calculation? There is a significant gap between 2,000 and 6,000. Is there a more exact way of determining how many children we are talking about? Priya talks about the big secret. It is terribly weighty stuff for any child to have to bear. Confiding with peers is part of growing up and to have a big secret is a tremendous weight on any child. Most, perhaps all, of us can empathise with this because we have family or friends who are undocumented in the United States and for whom, after the most recent election, there is increased concern and uncertainty. We can understand exactly what the witnesses are imparting to us. Priya talked about her son and said he worries about his position. We do not want young people to worry in this way because there is already such a weight on them in terms of all the challenges of third level education, as in this case, and everything else besides. I have not known the isolation associated with living undocumented but I have friends who have and are living it. I know the huge hurt this causes in their personal lives as a result of the disconnect with family, family events and the tragedy of losing a family member and not being able to be a part of that collective grieving. All of these things are well documented - no pun intended. I expect that our committee will reflect, as the previous committee has done, positively on the recommendations the witnesses have offered.

I invite, as a closing comment, any reflection specifically on children and how we might get a sharper picture of the numbers we are talking about.

Priya:

I would like to say something in response to what was said about young children. I would like those who are present to write as parents to the Minister on our behalf. She is a parent as well. That is why I brought some youngsters, including my daughter, to today's meeting. My daughter has been listening to what we have been saying about this situation. She is sitting in the Gallery.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would Priya's daughter like to stand up and identify herself? She is very welcome here today.

Priya:

She is worried about her future as well. She wants to study law. She has come with me to listen to what has been going on, learn more about what will be decided from here and find out what her future will be. It is good to know the members of the committee are listening to us. It is not easy to live as an undocumented person. We are talking about everyday life rather than just one day. It is good that we are pushing for regularisation, but we have been pushing for five years. My daughter will not be 16 again after five years have passed. We are not talking about posters or objects. We are talking about the future. The future is tomorrow. If we keep pushing, that means we are pushing the future further away. We cannot catch what has already gone. My children will lose the years of their lives when they should be going to college and studying to get good degrees so that they can work and contribute here in Ireland. These are the things we are talking about. It is easy to talk here, but it is not easy to live it and to feel it.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a sense that Priya's daughter is very proud of her mother here this morning.

Priya:

Yes.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She has every right to be. Would Ms McGinley or Mr. Rojas Coppari like to comment on the situation with regard to the number of children?

Mr. Pablo Rojas Coppari:

I understand the concern about the large discrepancy in numbers. I will explain the reason for that. We have already addressed this issue. For reasons that are obvious, it is impossible to calculate accurately the number of irregular migrants in this State. We have calculated three different estimates. We calculate those estimates by using the only data available from the State, which relate to the number of people who are irregular and are apprehended by the State. Such people may be asked about their intention to leave the State and issued with deportation orders on that basis, others may be issued with voluntary return orders and others may be given leave to remain. We have calculated a number by examining the percentages of those who are apprehended and eventually choose one of the three options. This is supplemented by something called the residual method, which uses a coefficient to determine that a certain percentage of those who are issued permissions to stay here will remain here undetected when they no longer have permission to be here. We can come up with a broader figure out of that. We are aware that a certain percentage of these people will have children. This is the hardest group to gauge because children do not feature anywhere in the immigration system. Children under the age of 16 do not have to be registered. Children are born here as well. We calculate that a percentage of those who are undocumented here will have children over a certain period of time. We have said that the figure ranges from 2,500 to 6,000 because we have three different estimates.

I would like to say two things in conclusion. We are making a presentation to the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs on 30 November next. We feel it would be useful if both committees could speak to each other about their recommendations. We will notify the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs that we have been here today. Ireland was instrumental in drafting the New York declaration, which was the outcome of the UN summit on migrants and refugees. We pride ourselves on having contributed to that and on taking the presidency of the UN Human Rights Council. I think it should be mentioned that by failing to act on recommendations from the international community and failing to address human rights issues in this State, we discredit ourselves in front of the international community.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality, I thank Mr. Rojas Coppari, Priya and Ms McGinley for putting their evidence before us this morning and helping us through this process. I invite them to join us outside for a photograph to record the fact that they have been here and to enable us to create a montage with the report to the Tánaiste.

Sitting suspended at 9.55 a.m. and resumed at 10.05 a.m.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We shall resume the meeting. The purpose of the second part of the meeting is to engage with Ms Fiona Finn, chief executive, and Ms Jennifer DeWan, campaigns and communications manager, NASC. I have been briefed that nasc is the Irish word for link. I welcome both women here this morning.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I thank the Chairman.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The joint committee has identified immigration and the refugee crisis as one of its priority issues in its 2016 work programme. For the information of the witnesses, we are building on work that has already been addressed by this committee because we believe it is important to revisit and re-inject impetus into particular issues. We have selected a number of issues this year.

I welcome Ms Finn and Ms DeWan to the meeting. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank them for their attendance here today.

The format of the meeting is that the delegates will be invited to make a brief opening address that will be followed by a question-and-answer session with members.

Before we begin I must draw the attention of witnesses to privilege. I ask the witnesses to note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Finn to make her opening statement on behalf of NASC.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I thank everyone for the opportunity to come here this morning. My name is Fiona Finn and I am the chief executive officer of NASC. I am accompanied by my colleague, Ms Jennifer DeWan.

NASC is the Irish word for link. NASC is an NGO based in Cork. Since 2000 NASC has worked to link migrants, refugees, asylum seekers and ethnic minorities with their rights.

One of the key issues that NASC works on is family reunification. Over the past 16 years NASC has worked with thousands of migrants who sought to bring their family members to Ireland. In the past two years we have helped reunite 137 families, some of which were refugee families. Some of the families fled war, conflict and persecution. As a result, we have a huge amount of expertise in this area. We have a strong knowledge of the issues and barriers people must face when seeking to bring family members to Ireland.

As everyone will know, one of the largest humanitarian crisis is taking place since the Second World War. Our thinking and approach to the problem is that family reunification can form part of Ireland's solution and answer to the crisis. We have all seen the horrific images on our television screens. We have seen images of people in rickety boats desperately trying to reach the safety of Europe's shores. We have also seen families, women and children located on the borders of Europe, living in makeshift tents, freezing and starving while waiting for Europe to do something to protect them. We have seen countless images of drowned, injured and starving children. We have been horrified by the images and rightly so. It is testament to our humanity, goodness and belief that we believe we can make a difference. It is a tribute to who we are and to the Ireland that our ancestors fought to make a reality a century ago.

The migrant crisis seems enormous to everybody. People are left feeling helpless and they do not know where to start. The Government has offered to bring 4,000 people here under a resettlement and relocation programme, which is a positive step. Recently agreement was reached to bring 200 children from Calais to Ireland, which is highly commendable.

From our experience of working with refugees and people already settled in Ireland, we know such measures are not enough. Every day Syrians and naturalised citizens who live in Ireland can see what is happening in their countries on a screen. They have seen images of their homeland lying in ruins. They have families living in the region. Some of them have immediate family members there while others have extended family members there. Their parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews and nieces are fighting for survival and their families here are desperate to bring them here to safety. The families here have told us that they can support, provide for, house and look after their people and all they need is an opportunity to bring their family members here. We have worked with families with some degree of success. From our experience of the system for non-refugee family reunification, we believe there has been a failure on behalf of the Government to exercise what we call positive discretion.

Matters are remarkably difficult, for example, for Syrians who are naturalised Irish citizens living here and looking to bring in elderly parents. It is becoming extraordinarily difficult for them to do that. I will set out an example involving one gentleman. He is a professional and a naturalised Irish citizen. He earned the requisite amount of money, that is, €70,000 per year, required to bring his elderly parents to Ireland. He was refused because both his parents suffer from a degenerative disease. The view was that the area where the family was living was relatively unscathed by the war. This is the response Irish citizens are getting from the Department. They are rather disillusioned and it seems to them that Ireland is not supporting them as it should.

Under immigration provisions, an element of discretion can be exercised. However, our experience is that this discretion is not being exercised at present. This is a critical moment for us in that the International Protection Act is about to come into force. This Act removes the right for refugees to apply for extended family members to come to Ireland. Once the International Protection Act comes into place, refugees in Ireland can only apply for spouses and children under the age of 18 years. There is no way they can apply for parents, siblings or any other family members. That door will be permanently shut within the coming weeks.

We are looking for a safety net. A safety net is required. We have a pragmatic and practical solution to provide a humanitarian safety net to bring families together in a safe and legal way. We are removing the need for people's families to make dangerous land and sea crossings and we are seeking to stop the traffickers who are profiting from this human misery. This provides us with an opportunity to support Irish communities and to finally do something practical for those fleeing conflict. We are asking for sponsorship for family reunification applications. We are calling on the Government to grant safe passage to reunite families by way of three simple measures. The first is to introduce a humanitarian admission programme. Such a programme was in place in 2014 and it was specifically tailored for Syrians. Our idea is for the Government to look at the programme that was developed in 2014 and build on it. We are asking it to consider a greater humanitarian response in its decision-making for non-refugee family reunification applications. We are also asking the Government for the introduction of a sponsorship scheme to allow Irish people who are willing and able to sponsor applicants to do so. Irish people have come to us and said that they want to be able to sponsor families to come to Ireland. The idea is to develop a clear sponsorship scheme to enable Irish people to support Syrians who are living in Syria and the surrounding territories to come to Ireland. We are seeking something along the lines of the Canadian and German programmes.

Given the current global climate, including the rise of extremism and of the right, we have to take every opportunity to do what is right, not simply what is politically expedient. We are calling on the State not to react with passion or ad hocsolutions. There is a requirement for us to act positively and decisively to deliver stable, sustainable and durable solutions. We need to deliver actions that will mark Ireland out as a leader in championing inclusion when all about us want exclusion, tolerance when people want hatred and human rights when people want authoritarianism. This is our chance to do something. It would be a small measure and no great burden on the public purse. This is our opportunity to do something to bring families together, in safety, out of the current conflict, not only now but in future.

We are open to answering any questions.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms DeWan wish to comment at this stage?

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

No.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to open the discussion up to members. I thank Ms Finn for her comprehensive address to the committee. Our guests will see that in the first part of our proceedings, we dealt with those who are illegal migrants. Now, we are looking at the refugee crisis with a particular focus. We have agreed that each of these areas require to be addressed. Would any member like to start the ball rolling? Would any of the shy late hands like to go first this time?

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will go first.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is a regular to start, so we will allow him to go first.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am a Deputy for Fianna Fáil. I thank the deputation for the presentation. We are going to produce a report on foot of the evidence and hearings today. That report needs to be relatively specific. We must be aware of what we are seeking if we call upon the Government to do something.

I have a query about the first request of the Government from NASC. Page 3 of the NASC document refers to how the organisation wants the Government to introduce a humanitarian admission programme for extended family members. What does NASC mean by "extended family members"? Does it go beyond children, parents and siblings?

Ms Fiona Finn:

It relates to parents in the main. Our experience in working with Syrians who are living and settled here is that they are looking to bring in parents and possibly brothers and sisters who are either stuck in Turkey or who remain in Syria.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The word "extended" could be read differently.

Ms Fiona Finn:

It could be broadly interpreted, if the committee so wished. Our experience is that the greatest need relates to parents and brothers and sisters.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Do we have any indication of the numbers involved? Obviously, this will be a political issue.

Ms Fiona Finn:

We are talking in the hundreds. Under the previous Syrian humanitarian admission programme, 500 potential places were available and 370 applications were received. Between 111 and 119 visas were granted.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The number is in the hundreds. Is that correct?

Ms Fiona Finn:

The numbers are in the hundreds not the thousands.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Those are all the questions I wished to ask.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the deputation for the presentation. Two questions come to mind. The first follows from my colleague, Deputy O'Callaghan, said. I come across this issue regularly. People are trying to secure reunification with their families. What is the percentage for rejections? I know it is difficult for families. Does NASC have internal projections? In my experience, it has been remarkably difficult for people to process applications in light of multiple legal advices and so on.

Ms Fiona Finn:

It is difficult. To be fair, the Department is taking a fairly positive view when it comes to extended family members seeking refugee family unification. Again, it very much depends on income and dependency. An applicant must prove that a family member is dependent. Some of the decisions coming back are puzzling and there seems to be no consistency in the decision-making.

In the case of non-refugee family reunification or people who are applying for visas, the refusal rate is high. The relevant policy document basically states that the position of the Department is that an applicant will be refused unless she can prove otherwise. It is a particularly high barrier to overcome. The need for favourable decisions is even more critical now given the coming into force of the International Protection Act. The Act will mean that many refugees are going to have to move from the refugee family reunification process to the immigration framework. Under that framework, of every ten applications we submit, eight will be refused.

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We had a debate recently on Calais. It was something our party led and some of my colleagues spoke passionately about it. The response from Government seemed to refer to the administrative framework and Tusla. What is the NGO perspective? Is the Government moving to ensure that the administrative framework is in place to allow us to progress this matter quickly? Has the Government moved with Tusla and other agencies to ensure that we can deliver on our commitments?

Ms Fiona Finn:

Does the question relate to Calais?

Photo of Jack ChambersJack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I cannot say, but I know movement is under way at the moment. I know that Tusla is engaged.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

In general, Tusla has a programme based on supporting unaccompanied minors. The programme, which has been embedded since the establishment of Tusla, is strong.

Ms Fiona Finn:

It will be challenging and it will probably take some time but, as far as we know, moves are under way. A question was asked about the administrative framework. A similar scheme was rolled out previously. We have the foundation in place to reintroduce it. Obviously, the idea would be to reintroduce it while addressing the previous problems and issues that arose.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for coming in.

I take it that they work mostly with reuniting families. Obviously, there are many families that would like to come here that do not have anyone in Ireland at present. Do they work in any way or make contact with those people in different hot spots in Europe or wherever? Are they involved in that end of it?

Ms Fiona Finn:

We would not have. No NGOs would have, unless they actively go there. One is looking at people who are coming in under the EU relocation. We do not have any direct access to that. That scheme is being delivered by officials from the Department of Justice and Equality, who are going out to identify families and those who are trying to come into Ireland from Greece and Italy. We do not have any links.

What we have are people living in Ireland who have family members in Greece, Italy and Calais. It is a matter of making those links. For instance, we have one guy who has a brother in Calais and a programme of this kind would enable his brother to come safely from Calais to Ireland, not necessarily to Cork.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Does NASC Ireland specifically work with Syrians?

Ms Fiona Finn:

We work with Syrians, Yemeni, Iraqis. The Syrians are the majority.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Is NASC Ireland particularly looking-----

Ms Fiona Finn:

It would not just be confined to Syrians.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I cannot help feeling that the Government has been less keen to take in other nationalities. When Deputy Clare Daly and myself went to Calais and Dunkirk, Calais was predominantly Afghan and Dunkirk was predominantly Kurd. There seems to be less of an appetite to engage with them, which is unfortunate.

The Syrians that I would have met in both camps were a minority in both camps but they were much better off than the Afghans and the Kurds. If truth be told, the Afghans and the Kurds were even more in need of help, although I am not undermining the horrific situation of the Syrians.

Ms Fiona Finn:

Absolutely. With a scheme like this, there are a lot of Afghans living in Ireland who have family members who are in Calais or moving throughout Europe. We have a lot of Iraqis living in Ireland whose family members are in the same situation. I see no reason this scheme would not be open to them. There are a lot of Kurdish people, including Syrian Kurds, living in Ireland who would have family members, either in Syria or in neighbouring countries. There would be no reason this could not be open to both but I agree with Deputy Wallace that there seems to be a tendency throughout Europe for the focus to be predominantly on Syrians. That is probably because of the ongoing conflict, but I agree also that there are people from other countries who are displaced and in equal need.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

One of the most positive aspects of this proposal that we have set forth to the committee is that it provides a safe and legal route for people who may not have other channels of migration. The conflict in Yemen is a perfect example. There are very few Yemeni families in Ireland at present because it is really difficult for Yemenis to leave. If they try to go north there is desert and if they try to go south there is sea. There are not many access points to get out of that conflict. We are not seeing many Yemeni come to Europe through those irregular channels that one would normally see. In fact, this proposal provides an opportunity for the few Yemeni families that are here to be able to bring their family members to safety when they would not necessarily have that access normally.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Wallace, would you like to continue with your line of questioning?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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They mentioned Tusla. From our small contact with Tusla, we would be convinced that it is seriously underfunded. It is almost a deliberate policy on the part of the Government to underfund Tusla so that everything happens at a much slower pace. To tell the truth, I do not see a serious appetite on the part of the present Government to bring in many people anyway. We have been abysmal.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I agree.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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There are four times more people living in Bangkok than in Ireland and the place functions reasonably well. Surely there must be pressure applied for the Government to give the resources to Tusla to do what it is supposed to do. Otherwise, it is just talk.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I know.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

Not only Tusla. From that perspective, there is also the Department of Justice and Equality. ORAC would be processing asylum applications for those coming in through relocation and INIS, when making family reunification applications and such like, is under resourced for that work. Across the board, that is a problem.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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On a final point, I agree that 4,000 is not near enough, given the size of our population, given the relative wealth of our country in comparison to where these people come from and given what other countries in Europe have done and the scale of the problem worldwide that has been caused by absolute destruction wreaked. I am not sure we will even take in 4,000. I made public the fact that we have facilitated the destruction by allowing Shannon to be used as a military base. What number in total should we be aiming to bring in?

Ms Fiona Finn:

From our perspective, it is hard to put a number on it. Obviously, we would like to see it much more than 4,000. It needs to be. Initially, when this 4,000 figure was announced the Government was saying that would translate into 20,000 with family reunification, but that is not true. The family reunification law coming in will severely restrict their ability to be reunited with their families.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

Also, they are bringing in family already.

Ms Fiona Finn:

To be honest, I could not put a number on it. I could say, "10,000". I could say, "20,000". If one has to look at it, we are one of the richest countries in western Europe. We have the infrastructure to deal with this. The majority of Irish people support this. They want to do something. I would think that we need to be at the 20,000 plus mark to start with. We need to be more ambitious.

I would be slow to put a number on it because then it looks as if it will be capped at that and it will not rise any further. Some 1.2 million people have come in to Europe. That number is not enormous. It really is not. Europe is a Union of 500 million. The proportion is tiny. European has only seen 6% of the world's refugee population. The numbers we are dealing with are really, really small.

We could do far more than taking in 4,000 people. It is disappointing that we are even struggling to do that. We are constantly hearing the numbers, and statements that 80 will be coming in, and 20, and ten, and one. Every day we are dealing with those who are the faces behind these numbers. We have an 18 year old who we are working with at present who he is trying to bring his family in, and he has the whole burden of the responsibility of bringing his family in because he was they only one that they could afford to bring. When the Deputy asks what numbers, it is an arbitrary matter in a sense because one binds oneself into something by capping it. What would the Deputy's view be?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We should look at the European average and link it to our population size. If, let us say, economically and socially, we are on the same level as the average in Europe which is not a mad statement to make, then we should aim for what the average of the European countries have done. I admit that most European countries have not done enough. Obviously, Germany has-----

Ms Fiona Finn:

Sweden.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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-----and a few of the Scandinavians. We should look at the average right across Europe and state we will meet the average. I do not think that is unreasonable.

Ms Fiona Finn:

Neither do I.

Photo of Frances BlackFrances Black (Independent)
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I thank them for their presentation and the great work that they do.

It is not enough to accept 200 children. It is a disgrace that we are accepting only 200, yet I am thankful that we have agreed to accept them, that we are doing something, but it is not enough. It is also not enough to accept 4,000 migrants.

I have listened to Ms Finn speak about refugees from Syria and Turkey, but I wonder if people are coming here from Palestine?

Ms Fiona Finn:

We have met-----

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The format is that the Senator will ask a number of questions which will be banked.

Ms Fiona Finn:

I am sorry I interrupted.

Photo of Frances BlackFrances Black (Independent)
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I have a number of questions. Some 200 children and 4,000 refugees are being allowed to come to Ireland. What is the source of the blockage? Why will Ireland only allow such a small number of refugees to enter the country? If one was to be really honest, there is resistance, on which I would like Ms Finn to expand.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do Ms Finn and Ms DeWan want to respond now?

Ms Fiona Finn:

We see many Syrians of Palestinian ethnic origin coming to Ireland. Some of the Palestinians living in Cork have been here for a long time. Since the conflict in Syria began, we have seen a number of Syrian Palestinians arrive, but they are in the minority. I agree, however, that it is a significant issue. In Greece and Italy there is an issue with registration and how the relocation process is working. The problem is supposed to have been sorted in Greece, but it is a Europe-wide issue. We have said we will take 2,000 refugees from Greece and Italy. There was an issue with how the Greek authorities were administrating the process and registering individuals. No funding or additional resources have been given to Greece where refugees are living in dire circumstances and want to move on, but they are getting stuck at the border. There is a problem in funding the process.

Ireland could be more proactive. We have been told that people do not want to come to here, but I find that hard to believe. If a family living in a camp on the Macedonian border were asked if they would like to have safe passage to Ireland, I think they would come. I question how proactive we are in identifying people in the field and bringing them to Ireland. The numbers relocating to other European countries have increased. As Deputy Mick Wallace highlighted, there is an underlying resistance to the relocation of Afghans. There is an underlying security concern that is beginning to come to the surface. There is a perception that older Afghan children pose a security risk. We refute this, but security concerns are influencing how we are responding to the crisis. That is my view based on some of the feedback we have been getting. It is much easier for us to get a positive decision for a female, particularly a female Christian, but males are more challenging and the majority of the decisions on young Muslim males are negative. It is never overt, but it is covert. That needs to be said and the issue needs to be tackled. We are working with a man who wishes to bring his two older brothers here, but he has more or less been told that security is the issue. This will not be stated in the letter of refusal, but we know that security is the issue. Both of his brothers are unmarried; one is in his 40s, while the other is in his 50s. They are both willing to undergo any security check required. They are willing to be held until it is established that they are not terrorists. If they had wanted to join a terrorist group, they could have done so before now, but that is a factor that is coming into play.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

There is definitely rhetoric about bringing the right sort of person here and it comes into the security discussion. In the identification of individuals in the relocation process we ensure the people who come here from hot spots in Greece and Italy will be the right sort; that means families, as they are perceived to be a lower security risk. Women are perceived as posing a lower security risk than young men on their own. We argue that this is a major barrier in dealing with unaccompanied minors, the bulk of whom end up being young men.

Photo of Frances BlackFrances Black (Independent)
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How can the committee support the work of the NASC. What is the number one thing we could do to help?

Ms Fiona Finn:

What is of most importance for us is the humanitarian admission programme, but it will not solve everything and is only a tiny part of the solution. Second, there needs to be an examination of how decisions are made in the visa process and the use of discretion. With the new Act, we are effectively closing the door to hundreds of refugees. On the broader issue of integration, many of those who wish to bring their families to Ireland are now naturalised Irish citizens; they are working and contribute. They question what Ireland is doing as it makes them feel they do not belong here. We have to respect those who have come here and if they want to be reunited with family members, we need to be more open in how we can accommodate and facilitate them.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of comments before we bring our engagement to a close. The NASC is based in Cork.

Ms Fiona Finn:

Yes.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does it cover issues across the jurisdiction, not just in Cork? In other words, it is not just a snapshot of the experience in Cork; there is engagement country-wide with people who come to it for support.

The delegates have mentioned, as have others, the situation in Italy and Greece for those who were fortunate enough to reach those shores with the support of the Irish Naval Service and others who have played a wonderful role in the Mediterranean. We are conscious that the issues in Italy have not yet been resolved. Will the delegates comment on this as there has been ongoing engagement, including by the former Chairman of this committee who is now the Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality? Will the delegates update us on the difficulties being encountered there?

Leaving the Calais 200 aside, the criteria for the identification of unaccompanied children have been laid down by Tusla. Ms DeWan spoke about profiling, but there is profiling involved, given Tusla's indication of the acceptable target, within a particular age group and so on.

It is very particular and is confined to a small age profile. We would have previously expressed concern about this.

I will conclude by advising the witnesses, as I did our previous guests at the earlier session, that the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald will be coming before this committee next month on matters pertaining to her Department. We took a decision when we were determining our work programme that we would write to her and ask that she would specifically address these matters, namely, migration and the refugee crisis and she has replied in the positive. We will be having a committee engagement with the Minister specifically on these matters. Our report will follow that engagement and will be published in the new year. If the witnesses were here as members of the committee with the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality in front of them, what question would they put to her?

I ask the witnesses to comment on that collection of queries and ideas.

Ms Fiona Finn:

First, on the NASC issue, we are based in Cork but we have a much broader remit. While our legal information service is mainly for people in the Cork and Munster regions, people do travel from other parts of the country, including Dublin, to access our services. In that sense, we have a national remit. We were on the working group for direct provision. Our focus is on the individuals who attend our clinics but also on the broader questions of national law and policy.

The next question was on Italy. My understanding was that the issue in Italy was almost resolved. That was the last I had heard. I believe security issues proved to be a stumbling block in the sense of determining who was responsible for the security screening. Questions arose as to who should carry out the screening, whether it would be sufficient for the Italians to do it or whether the Irish authorities needed to carry out additional screening. That is where the blockage was, or at least that is my information.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

Gardaí have gone to Italy to do additional screening so there is a double screening process taking place, as far as we know.

Ms Fiona Finn:

That is right. There is a double screening process. Gardaí have gone to Italy or will be going soon. That is the issue there. It is a question of diplomacy, as far as I am aware.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will find out.

Ms Fiona Finn:

The issue of the identification of unaccompanied children and profiling was raised. We touched on the fact that the perception is that there is a preference for younger children, for whatever reason. Perhaps security concerns are behind that but I believe it is misguided and unfair. There is also an element of discrimination at play. I do not know how the needs of a 16 year old differ greatly from that of a 17 year old. The level of support the younger child needs may be greater but supports should be based on the individual as opposed to the individual's age profile. In law, an unaccompanied minor is defined as someone travelling alone under the age of 18. The recognised age is 18 and making any other distinctions below that is questionable. It is hard to know what potential objective justification could be provided for accepting a 15 year old but not a 17 year old. There is no objective criteria that can be applied to a decision like that.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

We work primarily with aged out minors. Unaccompanied minors under 18 are in the care system and receive a significant amount of support. The supports that we provide kick the moment those minors reach 18 and enter the direct provision system. We offer support to and work with quite a few aged out minors. Issues that arise include the fact that their needs do not stop on their 18th birthday. When they enter the direct provision system they end up with a whole new cycle of issues and problems. The transition into direct provision can be very difficult. By pushing for younger minors, 15 or younger, we are not acknowledging the longer-term care needs of aged out minors.

I am not sure if the question emanates from concerns about the situation in the UK. Questions have been asked about how we determine a person's age and newspapers like the Daily Mail have published articles about minors at Calais claiming that some are not minors but are, in some cases, in their 30s. The fact that the consent of an adult is required before a medical examination can be carried out on a minor to determine his or her age is having a negative impact on unaccompanied minors because there is a push to accept only those who look quite young. We have seen cases, in the Irish context, where people are age disputed. They come in and say they are 16 but that is disputed and they end up in direct provision at 16, on their own. We have seen that happen in a number of cases and it can be very traumatic for the young person in question.

There are lots of issues surrounding the identification of unaccompanied minors which must be addressed.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for that. I ask the witnesses to tell us what they would like to say to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality if she was sitting here.

Ms Fiona Finn:

Personally, what I would like to say is that in our response to this crisis, compassion and humanity must be what guides us. We should be less concerned about numbers - 4,000, or 2,000 - for settlement or relocation. As a country, we must look at this with compassion and humanity. We did not do so well in the aftermath of World War 2 when we only accepted 30 Jewish refugees. We now have an opportunity to be on the right side of history and to be judged well for this in years to come.

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

I would ask a very pragmatic question. What we have offered here is a very pragmatic solution that is implementable. We believe the solution is very straightforward and is also quite small in the grand scheme of things. I would ask the Minister what the barriers to implementing something like this are so that we can address them. From our perspective and that of the families with whom we work, as well as from our experience of family reunification, we have presented something that is very doable. In that context, I would ask the Minister what the barriers are so that we can address them.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms DeWan referring to the humanitarian ambition programme?

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

Yes.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She would ask, "What are the barriers to its introduction?"

Ms Jennifer DeWan:

Yes.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, thank you. On behalf on the committee I thank Ms Finn and Ms DeWan. They have travelled quite a distance to be here today.

I wish to explain that our committees are a lot smaller than they used to be. I am not sure if the witnesses have appeared before an Oireachtas committee in the past. As I said, the committee is a lot smaller than in previous times but the greater number of our membership was here today. Some members had to leave early due to other committee responsibilities. I thank all of the members who contributed to this and the previous session. We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to have a photograph taken. The photograph will form part of a montage that will accompany the report to be submitted to the Minister on the completion of our deliberations on this very important issue.

I wish NASC every success in its continuing work.

Ms Fiona Finn:

We thank the committee for their time and engagement. It has been great.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.50 a.m. and adjourned at 11 a.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 November 2016.