Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I have received apologies from Senator Terry Leyden.

I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode as they interfere with the sound system which makes it difficult for the parliamentary reporters to report the proceedings of the meeting. They also adversely affect the television coverage.

I advise the Minister and the Minister of State that any submission or opening statements they have made or submitted to the joint committee will be published on its website after the meeting.

I propose that we examine the Vote on a selected programme basis. Members will be called on to ask questions on the subheads under the relevant programme. Programmes A, B and C have been chosen for examination. They have been chosen as they contain information that will be useful in illustrating the link between expenditure and performance. Following the examination of the programmes, members may wish to address questions to the Minister on the administrative subheads and the appropriations-in-aid. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Kyne. I note the recent change in the Minister's title. We may also have to consider changing the title of the committee. I thank the Minister and his officials for providing the briefing material for the meeting. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I have one question on the national broadband plan. Some €7.5 million has been allocated in 2016 for next generation broadband services. By the end of June €2.547 million had been spent under subhead A3, out of a total Estimate allocation of €16.75 million. What proportion of this figure has been spent under the national broadband plan and why has there been an underspend in that regard? Will the Minister elaborate on whether the underspend has adversely affected the roll-out of the national broadband plan?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Timmy Dooley.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister. I would like to concentrate on the future rather than the past because he is ahead of profile in terms of his spend. It almost seems to suggest that he will have very little to do, with up to 90% of his funds spent in certain areas and 75% in others. That was up to June, so by the look of things it will be a lean enough period until Christmas.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will refer to a couple of issues. On climate change, I was surprised to hear the Minister say that the effort does not fall to his Department alone. We accept that with regard to energy efficiency and renewable energy. Notwithstanding that, his Department has been given a title that includes the phrase "climate action", which sends out a message that he will take a lead on that. I hope he will not fall into the trap whereby he will say it is not his responsibility and that others need to come to the table as well. We need a driver with regard to climate action and climate change, and that needs to happen very quickly. The Minister is well aware of the implications of agreements recently reached and other targets that will be set further out to 2030, so we need a co-ordinated policy from the Minister. I am sure the battle will be at the Cabinet table, and we expect him to win on that.

In terms of transport, the message that seems to be coming from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is that it requires more taxation in terms of the equalisation of the charges on diesel and petrol and that this would solve its responsibility, but it would not. We all know that the transport sector is way behind. In truth, if we are to make some changes in the transport sector, it is not about moving people from using diesel to using petrol. To that extent, has the Minister any plans to enhance the use of electric vehicles? I read some material during the summer about what the Norwegians have done. They expect to have moved away from the use of petrol and diesel for all domestic vehicles and some lighter commercial vehicles by 2025. That is an ambitious plan, but those are the types of ideas we would need to see coming from the Minister’s Department. It should set out the vision, let the other Departments follow, and have the battle lines drawn in that respect. The Minister will have to go big and bold in that regard if he is to achieve a shift away from fossil fuels. We would like to hear some comments on that.

The Minister spoke about the funding of public service broadcasting and the issue having been bounced around in the media. That is the case. Very early on in his tenure, he identified one source of funding-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but we are dealing with programme A on communications. I might be able to call him again later.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am coming to communications now.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will let the Deputy proceed, and the Minister might take a note of the question. I should have said at the outset that we are just dealing with programme A for now, which is communications. The Deputy can put the question.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is broadcasting in programme B?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On the broadband roll-out, is the Minister satisfied that the 2022 deadline is achievable? Does he envisage any other delays with regard to the appointment of the contractor? Some background negotiations had to take place in that regard. Can the Minister provide an update?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Joe O'Reilly and ask him to speak to programme A, which relates to communications.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I join in the welcome to the Minister. I warmly congratulate him on his appointment and express my confidence that he will bring great skills to the role.

The provision of broadband is a priority issue for all of us. It must be a priority for people who represent areas where large sections are not covered because of topography or relative isolation. It is very important that we get broadband into every home in the country. Apart from the €2.5 million the Minister said is being reallocated to other areas, I am anxious to know that the rest of the moneys from this year's surplus would go into next year's programme as additional moneys, in other words, there would be no diminution of moneys. The Minister might confirm that broadband roll-out would not be affected.

I am anxious to know also how negotiations on procuring a contractor are going, and the timeframe the Minster has put on that. I reiterate our concern that we expressed at a previous meeting that the Minister would ensure that the contractual situation would be clear, that everything will happen on schedule, with no unnecessary delays, which is important, and that everything will be achieved within cost.

I had wanted to speak about online vouchers, but I understand that comes under another heading.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is this heading. The Senator can ask the question.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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The Minister will appreciate that online sales have a great deal of potential in Border areas because of currency variations etc. There is a great opportunity for some Border traders to sell into the sterling area at certain times. That should be supported and encouraged. I am anxious to get the Minister's response to that. Does he believe there is an opportunity in Border region in particular to sell into the sterling areas - Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom generally? Does the Minister believe that online vouchers are working adequately? They do not seem to have captured the public imagination and there does not seem to be a high level of awareness of them. That may be my fault but I ask the Minister to elaborate on the online voucher scheme. I am interested to hear his response on that.

Will the Minister elaborate on the area of domestic energy efficiency improvements? How does he see-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That comes under programme C on energy.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Do cars come under programme C?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I will hold off asking those questions until the appropriate time.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials. I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute.

In terms of broadband provision, programme A will be hugely important. In the past 15 years, I have attended more than enough briefings and announcements on that issue by different organisations and companies. Anybody who has attended the National Ploughing Championships, and even people who do not attend but who have their eyes and ears open, will know that we still have a huge problem with the roll-out of effective, high-speed broadband, not just in very rural areas but in many towns also. In County Laois and south Kildare, there are many areas without broadband. We want to see it rolled out to these areas in a speedy fashion.

My concern is about the amount of money available until the end of June. I take the Minister's point that the spend does not always reflect the activity. My party does not advocate throwing money at areas to try to get movement for the sake of it.

It obviously must be spent properly with proper procurement and everything else. However, the expenditure figure of €2.5 million for the first six months of the year to the end of June certainly jumped out at me as being very low. This might indicate this project is not being given the sense of urgency it deserves.

On the issue of broadband, the briefing acknowledges a point made to members previously to the effect that while it had been hoped that 100% of addresses would be reached, this will not be the case. The briefing states it has since transpired that 100% of addresses will not have access to next-generation broadband by 2022. This obviously is a concern on which the Minister might elaborate. While there are areas such as the Black Valley, County Kerry, which even the rural electrification scheme had difficulty in accessing, the flat ground in the midlands should not be a major problem. The Minister might elaborate on what will be the percentage with which there will be difficulties.

On the issue of the roll-out of this plan between now and 2022, it will be necessary for members to be able to measure progress on it. The plan will be handed over to one of the three bidding companies and I wish to ascertain the current status of that process. The preferred contractor was meant to have been selected this year but that will not now happen and has been deferred until 2017. What is the current position in this regard? What progress is being made and when in 2017 will the preferred bidder be identified? Will it take place closer to January or to December 2017 because that obviously is important? As this project must be cranked up rapidly, will the Department set targets on the roll-out? What is the current status of the bidding process, when will the contractor be selected and when will there be feet on the ground in this regard? Will there be annual targets to enable members to monitor the roll-out? My final question on this plan pertains to the 30 Mbps target. Does the expert advice received by the Minister indicate that by current international standards, 30 Mbps is sufficient for businesses trying to operate in rural areas in particular? People must download large documents and must send large documents online. On foot of the expert advice they have received, are the departmental officials and the Minister satisfied that 30 Mbps is adequate?

The Minister has heard me express concerns previously on the ownership of the infrastructure but I do not wish to labour the point today. One bidder certainly has a different opinion in this regard from that of the Department to the effect that the core infrastructure should be in public ownership. Sinn Féin shares that opinion and the example of the disaster which Telecom-Eircom-Eir turned out to be is there to be seen. A lot of taxpayers' money was invested in that company during the 1980s and the concern is this project might go the same way. Members will need to see the roll-out of this project but I note the briefing contained issues of concern.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Eamon Ryan.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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As the Minister has a huge queue of questions, does the Chairman wish to come back to me if possible?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There would be another queue of questions. The Deputy is the last speaker to have indicated in this-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In that case, I will be brief.

This is a point I might reiterate if I can come back in on later sections. Earlier, I attended a meeting of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. I made a point to him that also applies here, which is that the areas for which the Minister is responsible are of huge significance for the economic development of the State, as well as for social and other progress in areas such as the digital economy and the clean energy economy. Moreover, that is even before one considers rivers, engineering, geoscience and so on. If my recollection is correct regarding the core analytical staff available to the Minister to understand and manage the new digital economy and the clean economy, according to the Sunday newspapers, Ireland probably has more civil servants working out sick pay for those public servants who are sick than it has working in the area of digital and energy policy. I have made the point to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, that this requires a quantum change. As I understand it, 5,000 civil servants in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine process payment forms for Europe or whatever. Why not get 2,000 of them and start them working on this issue? I have nothing against agriculture but I have a general sense about ambition for this area.

There must be 30,000 people in my constituency of Dublin Bay South who work in the digital industries and we are interested in what the Vice President for the Commission was talking about before this committee regarding privacy issues, copyright issues, spectrum management. Any one of the issues presented to members by the Vice President would require a team of ten civil servants to understand how Ireland should position itself. I refer to the copyright issue or, for example, the not insignificant issue of the Max Schrems judgment in the Facebook case. This is not of no consequence to our economic, social and other future as Ireland must be the best at understanding the ethical rules on the digital economy. I make the point that while I agree issues such as the national broadband scheme and so on undoubtedly are important, it actually is about the soft stuff, that is, the intellectual understanding of what is happening in the digital economy. I do not believe the Department has the requisite number of staff and while there is nothing wrong with the staff, the Department needs more resources. My sense is it requires a fivefold increase and I could make the same point in respect of clean energy. I am interested to learn how or whether the Minister thinks he might get such an increase.

As a final brief question, who should I contact if I want to know about cyber-security in the Irish State? If that is a security issue in its own right, the Minister can tell me privately. However, as one example, can he outline to me the number of people the State has working in the area of cyber-security and where are they based? What sort of secure interaction can the joint committee have on the issue of cyber-security?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Lawless wish to come in?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to make a few brief comments on the joint committee's favourite topic of broadband. In a political sense, the ploughing championships did some good, in that all members are more alert to and aware of the issues facing rural Ireland than may have been the case previously. In common with many members, I attended the championships yesterday but while speaking to various providers at different stands, one point that struck me about broadband in particular about which I had not been aware previously was on its transformative power. All members are aware of how high-speed Internet access transforms small businesses and education but a number of farmers were talking about broadband and why it is so important in rural areas in particular. In the case of a farmer who might be attempting to do another job, to make ends meet elsewhere or to look after a family or meet other commitments, a new technology might enable the deployment of cameras in the field to monitor animals and to keep an eye on what was happening around the farm. This would be in contrast to the days of old and of being obliged to drive around on a quad bike or to walk across fields and all the rest at 6 a.m. or at 10 p.m. It is a kind of transformative social experience that changes how people live their lives. As for the financial struggle seemingly affecting all farmers, the practicalities of trying to participate in the workplace elsewhere while being able to keep an eye on the farm offer a real practical problem that high-speed broadband availability can try to solve.

I refer to an issue of which I had been vaguely aware but of which, on foot of some conversations at the championships, I have become more aware. I understand the implementation of fibre to the cabinet technology is under way in some cases already and it will bring high-speed broadband to many areas, including many rural locations, some of which are fairly isolated. However, this introduces another divide concerning those who are not on the particular stretch of line through which the fibre to the cabinet technology is running. While it is bad enough not having it, it certainly is as bad, if not worse, if one's neighbour does have it. This will create a kind of digital divide between rural and rural, rather than between urban and rural. While I am sure everyone present is aware of this point, I wish to stress it. The introduction of fibre to home technology obviously gets to the next stage and begins to address this issue.

Given the dates under discussion, my understanding is that it is expected the tender will be awarded in April or May 2017. Without going into detail in this regard, I understand that procurement and tendering processes, etc., are in play. However, to state the obvious, I note that the sooner the tender is awarded, the sooner the job can be started and the sooner we can get on with it, although I believe it will take a couple of years beyond the target. I again stress this was another view, of which I had not been aware previously, regarding rural communities and how immediate benefits to quality and standard of life and to how people live their lives can be achieved, as well as the obvious and often-stated small business and educational needs and all the rest of it in rural Ireland.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I invite the Minister to respond to those observations. If he wishes me to shorten the contribution times, I might not let it go for so long.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Have you finished, Minister?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to answer that point briefly, please.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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To whom does that UCD centre report? Is it the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Communications, Climate Change and Natural Resources?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Minister. We will now move on to the next programme, if members agree. That is programme B - broadcasting. I will start with Deputy Dooley who has indicated, followed by Deputy Stanley.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have some questions on broadcasting. Following his appointment, the Minister indicated that he was going to move away from the notion of a broadcasting charge, which was mentioned by a previous Minister, with a view to generating additional revenue for RTE to meet its commitments. The Minister has indicated a desire to sweat the assets, so to speak, in terms of getting a better return on the existing licence fee. Is he still of that mind? Does he still believe that more moneys can be drawn from the licence collection system and, if so, how much?

It has been reported in the media that the Minister has had discussions with RTE which has laid out its commitments in line with various requirements under the Broadcasting Acts. The Broadcast Authority of Ireland, BAI, has made clear that RTE would need more money if it is to continue in its role. Will the Minister share with us his thoughts, including the thoughts he shared with RTE's director general and the chairperson of the board, as to how they might meet their funding requirements in the coming months and years?

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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On the expenditure side, some 46% of the estimated grant has been allocated to RTE. For those of us who are new to this committee, will the Minister outline where the other 54% goes?

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Some 46% of the overall estimated grant has been allocated to RTE in the first six months of this year. Will the Minister outline briefly where the remaining 54% goes?

The proposal for a broadcasting fee was referred to by the previous speaker. I am glad that has gone because there are a small number of addresses that do not yet have a television. I am aware of one. People may claim they do not have a television, but I am aware of one address in my area where there is no television and will not be for the generation of people living there. I would therefore not be in favour of a television licence fee. If the Minister has moved away from that idea, however, how does he intend to replace it? If no increase in the licence fee is envisaged, we are moving towards enforcing greater compliance. I think the non-compliance figure - that is, those without a television licence - is currently nearly 12%. Perhaps the Minister could give us the figure. Is it about 12%?

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Many of them would be out in south Dublin.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They have to be in Mountjoy.

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Down the country they are very compliant with the law. It is a better way to go because we do not want to see an increase in the fee. How does the Minister intend to act on that? An Post officials traditionally enforced compliance, so how does the Minister intend going about that? Does he have a target for increasing compliance this year?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The amount estimated to be allocated to RTE was €185 million. Is that not so? Up to last June, 46% of that amount was spent. That was the question. I call Senator McDowell if he has a question.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment. I have not had an opportunity to do so in public so far. The Minister mentioned myself and Roscommon. It occurred to me that there are many apartment complexes along the Shannon which, generally speaking, are owned by people as second homes. A television licence costs €145.50 per dwelling, but people with two homes are not millionaires. I am not talking about myself, by the way, because I do not have a television in my own home down there. I just want to make that clear, and I am not a millionaire. I am talking about ordinary Joe and Josephine Soaps who may have one of these holiday apartments in the Minister's constituency. It would cost €291 to purchase two licence fees, but to gain that sum one would have to earn about €600. That is after-tax income at the marginal rate, which is a lot of money. It is all very well talking about further compliance with the law, but it is a huge imposition if the Minister is suggesting chasing people around who have already paid for one licence, yet may spend one month per year in another home which also requires a television licence. It requires them to earn €600 to pay for both licences.

The committee's policy document refers to alternatives to the licence fee. The Minister has indicated that he is not in favour of the cave tax, or whatever it was called before, but this is still a serious issue. If the Minister is going to crack the whip and start prosecuting people, he should remember that we are talking about ordinary people who will have to earn €600 for the privilege of watching television in two locations.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are ordinary people.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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There are a pile of apartments in Dromod, which are not owned by the wealthy as far as I can see.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is the same for mobile homes and caravan sites.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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Yes. There are caravan sites in Wexford, Donabate and places like that. We are talking about real people who are not very wealthy. The system of increasing compliance is all very well, but if the Minister is going to squeeze them, he should remember that it is a huge imposition coming on top of the local property tax, bin charges and everything else.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The overarching question concerns grant aid for RTE. There was a shortfall in that grant aid in 2014 and 2015, and it looks like that may also be the case in 2016. Does the Department feel there could be an adverse effect on the provision of public service broadcasting? I would like to get the Minister's views on that.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The election.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I can understand what Senator McDowell is saying in terms of evasion. We all know that dealing with bills and all the different components of that is horrible. However, there is a fundamental need for us to have decent public service broadcasting. I commend what the Minister has said, considering the hundreds of millions of euro which go out of the country to Sky without any regulation, and it may be that the advent of Brexit brings that into a more regulated space without any real contribution from that organisation to Irish public service broadcasting. The hundreds of millions that probably go to Facebook, Google and other companies which are, in effect, broadcasting here might also have to be considered in the mix. Hopefully, the committee can look at this in our work programme. It may be one of those issues where, while there may not be Cabinet agreement on doing something, the Minister's Department needs to start work. We cannot just leave it hanging. Even if it is not done in the next year or two, the Department could at least prepare for it to be done in two or three years time. It must include online, satellite and, as the Minister has suggested, cable.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I acknowledge that the point I made may be a difficult one for the Minister, Deputy Naughten, to deal with. However, if someone has a caravan in Wexford, it is unfair to say he or she must buy two licences. One does not say to somebody who goes to a hotel room and turns on the television that he or she must pay €150 for the privilege over the fortnight or month he or she is staying there. I know the hotel pays a licence fee, but it does not hit the individual in anything like the same way. I ask the Minister and perhaps the committee to consider whether a person who pays the licence fee should get the benefit of a reduced rate for a caravan or secondary home. It seems to me that the Minister is trying to get the people who are not paying at all. I am talking about the people who are paying and who are being asked to pay on the double when there are people who are not paying at all.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On the same issue, the biggest concern my party has is that people are moving away from television sets and on to mobile phones and iPads. While they are not following a particular schedule, they are consuming data that is created at a cost by the national broadcaster. It is about how, as we move to the future, we have a robust system that protects the idea of public sector broadcasting. We can jockey around about who pays what and where. I have no issue there, and I take it that there are people who would see the particular line the Minister is taking as unfair. Of course, there are systems to protect those, but the fundamental thing we need to protect is a national broadcaster and the idea of public sector broadcasting. While we are fooling around in this space, I have a concern that we are eroding confidence in our national broadcaster and, through the loss of key personnel and staff, its capacity to continue to develop a thriving public sector broadcasting system. That is happening in the face of the challenges of social media and content aggregated, provided and sourced well outside the State and from an entirely different culture. While that is good and appropriate, we need a robust system if we are to protect what we have and allow it to develop and compete adequately. How much does the Minister consider he can gain from within that 14% who are not paying at the minute and taking into account what Senator McDowell has said, which is that some of the properties involved are only inhabited for short periods? What is the Minister's target?

The question of compliance is important because if there is no compliance, one must increase fees for those who are paying. It is very important that there is compliance. Perhaps the system needs to be changed to deal with a household with a licence that may have a mobile home or an apartment. The current licence is tied to the address and we need to look carefully at how we manage that. It is very important that we do not have a fee increase for those people who are paying because a significant number of people are not paying. I recognise that it would be practically impossible to get 100% compliance for various reasons, particularly in gated developments, but we are talking about a different situation with a household that does not have a licence. Perhaps the Department would look at that and see whether there is a mechanism that can be put in place where people who have a mobile home or apartment and who might be using a television for a fortnight or three weeks every year do not have to buy a licence to cover that period. One way around it is to stipulate that if the household can show it has a valid licence tied to an address and that it is its permanent residence, it sorts the matter out. We need compliance. I do not want to get into an argument with Senator McDowell about this but it is important that those people who are paying are not carrying a significant percentage who are not paying. Bills have been already mentioned. In Portlaoise, where I live, people are paying €80 a month for cable so along with paying the fee, they are paying this as well - €80 multiplied by 12. Those people are caught because if they have cable, they must have a licence. Those people are paying for everything.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Deputy Ryan. I am conscious that Senator Lombard has not come in yet so could Deputy Ryan keep his question short?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It concerns the related issue of cost, media ownership and protecting jobs in journalism. Does the Minister intend referring the purchase by Independent News & Media of Celtic Media Group to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland? What is the Minister's role in terms of applying the Competition and Consumer Protection Act to the issue of media ownership? Does he see that in his work programme in the coming weeks?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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This debate has run around the licence fee itself. Has the Minister considered the asset space of RTE, what it owns, where it owns it and the most suitable location for a national broadcaster to be based? Has he taken the wage structure in RTE into consideration? The top ten broadcasters are probably earning twice the amount earned by the Taoiseach so there are issues about the body itself. We are talking about squeezing the assets, the wage structure and the licence fee. All these things need to be brought together because when the general public hears what major broadcasters are earning when it might be hit with another licence fee increase, which I am happy the Minister has ruled out, that is a significant issue that needs to be put to bed.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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All these issues are related.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is when the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland possibly comes in and the Minister has to consider that.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will now move on to programme C - energy.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will try to get through this recognising that the time has gone on a bit. One of the issues I raised previously when I did not realise that we were going to go through it section by section was-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Then I will not repeat them. Could the Minister respond to those points?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring in Senator Lombard. Could members keep it to questions?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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No problem, we will keep it very brief. The electric car grant scheme is very important. Taking into consideration Drive4Zero, a pilot initiative run in Cork several years ago and the issue arising from that pilot regarding free car parking spaces, banks coming on board, local authorities and joined-up thinking between everyone, has the Minister any plans to extend that pilot and initiate more pilot programmes because it would be very appropriate?

The other area is energy efficiency, particularly relating to local authorities as major drivers and spenders of energy. I might be overshooting but I think only one local authority in Ireland has been accredited for energy efficiency. What are we going to do to get the other local authorities as major drivers in the community to come on line? As leaders in the community, they need to be seen to be upfront. Cork County Council is ISO 50001-accredited. Other local authorities and large energy providers owned by the State need to come on line. What are we proposing to do to get them to do this?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Could Senator O'Reilly keep it to questions?

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Could the Minister elaborate on proposed domestic energy efficiency improvements? Has he new grants schemes in mind? How does he evaluate what we have currently? What is he thinking of doing here?

I support what Senator Lombard said about electric cars.

Is the Minister planning on doing a cost-benefit analysis of reducing VRT or removing motor tax as incentives and to capture the public imagination given the benefit in terms of emissions etc.? Is he having both ends of that evaluated?

Brian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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Under subhead C4, the total allocation for the year is €65 million. I take it the bulk of that would be for SEAI. In general the SEAI grant scheme has been good and we can see the benefits of it in communities. There is one weakness with its roll-out. Many people with the greatest fuel poverty are living in the oldest houses which are the worst insulated and hardest to heat. I refer to mass concrete houses in particular, including local authority houses. I have raised this in the Dáil Chamber a number of times with the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, and various other Ministers, including Mr. Phil Hogan before he departed. The Minister, Deputy Naughten, now has responsibility for the environment. We were at sea for a while and had no Minister with responsibility for the environment.

Some houses built in 2005, which were originally fairly well insulated, have had their insulation improved and their energy rating upgraded. Some houses in my area that were already fairly well insulated were able to get the grant and in the case of local authority houses, the local authority did them. Whereas around the corner in another street, houses built in the 1930s or 1920s are far harder to heat. I am a realist and I know they are more expensive and difficult to do. However, there is new technology there.

Someone in the Department of Communications, Climate Change and Natural Resources needs to take a hands-on role in this. The other Department involved, the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, would be interested. That Department has a big job to do in getting the new ones in place. We have dodged the issue and it has not been dealt with. The local authorities have not been able to get to grips with it and we need to address it.

Regarding the €65 million for SEAI, in the recent past questions have been raised about governance at SEAI. I do not think there was any allegation of deliberate wrongdoing, anybody on the fiddle or anything like that. The problem arises with reporting and accountancy mechanisms between SEAI and the Department of Communications, Climate Change and Natural Resources. As we are dealing with the money and the money is the all-important bit, what has been done to rectify that in the past month or so?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I want to link something we already discussed to this section. When the Minister was effectively arguing to privatise the national broadband plan, he stated that he could not justify spending taxpayers' money on nationalising the broadband plan when there were more important things, such as climate change, to be dealt with. Given that we are discussing the Estimates, I ask the Minister to outline how much he is saving from not nationalising the broadband plan and how much he is putting into climate change. According to the briefing, which I read, there is an underspend in subhead C4 where only 33% has been spent on sustainable energy programmes. That does not look like a serious attempt by Government to deal with climate change.

Is the Minister concerned about the impact of a third runway in Dublin Airport on our CO2 emissions? Clearly aviation fuel is one of the more serious offenders in this area and the proposal of a third runway could have a major impact on it.

I ask the Chair a question while I have the floor because I have to leave. If one wants to ask a question on the work programme, should that happen after this section?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We were going to have a brief discussion on it in private session, but if the Deputy wants to give suggestions, we can defer it until next Tuesday. We will leave it until next Tuesday.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When I get those answers I will have to leave. I am sorry.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Why? Does the Minister think I am a long distance driver?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Will the Minister comment on the proposal for a third runway and the impact that might have on our CO2 emissions target?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will move to programme D - natural resources.

Have members any questions on natural resources?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It says in one of the documents, which I do not have in front of me now, there is a report due from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, on the question of fracking and natural gas. Will the Minister of State give me some idea when that report is due?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The steering committee agreed that the consortium would be requested to produce a synthesis report which is due to be completed by the end of the year.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The end of the year.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to programme E, inland fisheries. Are there any questions on that?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have had repeated requests from some people in the fisheries board about the proposed closure of two hatcheries. Perhaps it has already taken place. Will the Minister of State comment on that?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The board of Inland Fisheries Ireland made a decision in April to exit trout production. Two hatcheries in Roscrea and Cullion near Mullingar were affected. The board engaged in a period of public consultation that started on 5 July 2016 and subsequently ceased. The board has met and agreed to defer indefinitely its proposal to exit trout production. The board met a delegation from the main trout angling representative bodies in August to discuss the IFI's proposal. I have visited both facilities and I suggest if there is an issue and an interest in the committee, its members would visit both facilities in Roscrea and Cullion to see them. They are somewhat antiquated. They are doing the job they were designed to do but in a different era. The board has agreed to postpone the closure and exiting of production indefinitely but it recognises there are significant economic and environmental issues that need to be addressed in those facilities.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment. I have a quick question and if we are wrong we will be happy to have it confirmed. Perhaps the Minister of State will reassure us. One hears anecdotally that there are people in the energy area sitting on potential valuable energy resources around the country which are not being realised. Is the Minister of State satisfied there is a good tracking system and inventory of the potential for gas and oil finds in the country and that it is being followed up? I am sure there is no basis to it but one hears anecdotally that there are consortia or business interests sitting on finds and holding off on realising them. It is probably pub talk but is the Minister of State keeping a handle on it?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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From 2006 to 2009 there were rounds of oil and gas exploration which did not generate a lot of interest so a new approach was taken in the 2011 round. It involved making all unlicensed acreage within the Atlantic basins available in a single licensing round and also to make data available. The data were sold commercially to provide the greatest level of information about them to spark interest from interested parties. Some 43 applications for licensing options were received from 17 companies by the close of the round in September 2015. A process was gone through and there was an evaluation of applications. In February 2016, the 14 new licensing options were offered. A further 14 were offered in June 2016. There have been reports suggesting there are millions of euro worth of potential oil and gas available but it is only through active exploration that the potential of the Irish offshore can be discovered. There are costs associated with this. There has been private investment of €3 billion in recent years to try to strike oil and gas. Obviously the State does not have the resources and probably should not be involved in it. That is why there is licensing and private companies involved.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of State satisfied that enough is happening?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am satisfied. The data were made-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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That is fine.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The data were made available commercially and there has been a huge increase in interest. Representatives of the Geological Survey of Ireland have attended conferences internationally, in Canada and other places, to promote Ireland and possible oil exploration.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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One of the key issues over recent months and years is Whitegate and where we are going with it. I welcome the announcement made by the Minister in recent months that the Whitegate issue has been solved through guarding the oil refinery. Will this long-term contract or private sale ensure we will have a commercially working oil refinery on this island? Is the Minister happy that the body will keep the oil refinery going, which is a very important issue? Are we confident that Kinsale gas field on the southern side of Ireland will be kept going for the next few years or is the pending closure inevitable?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is inevitable that all oil fields will cease production at some stage. The gasfield sites in Kinsale and Ballycotton are operated by PSE Kinsale Energy off the coast of Cork through annual lease rental fees and royalties payable to the State. The direct financial return to the State from the Seven Heads gasfield operated off the coast is through annual lease rental fees and corporation tax of 25%. This is coming to the end of its working life which is why there are options and licences looking at alternatives for exploration. We will continue to do that. Some 28 licences were issued this year which is the highest ever. I hope we will see oil or gas struck from those licences.

The Minister, Deputy Naughten, might comment on the Whitegate issue.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Regarding what he said about energy security, does the Minister have plans to look at Whiddy Island in Bantry Bay and what it has to offer the State? Does he intend to review the terminal and the institution?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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As there are no questions about appropriations-in-aid and the administration subheads, I thank the Minister and the Minister of State and their officials for attending. I propose that the committee publish the opening statement and the briefing documents submitted for the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.