Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 26 April 2016

Committee on Housing and Homelessness

County and City Management Association

10:30 am

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask members and visitors to ensure their mobile phones are either switched off completely or in safe or flight mode, depending on their device, as mobile phones can cause interference with recording systems.

I draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter to only qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the representatives from the County and City Management Association, CCMA, one of whom will make a brief presentation to the committee. The full submission has already been circulated to members. The association's representatives this afternoon are: Mr. Eugene Cummins, CCMA chief executive; Mr. Dick Brady, Dublin City Council; Mr. Cathal Morgan, Dublin Region Homeless Executive; and Mr. Billy Coman, South Dublin County Council. Mr. Cummins will make a brief presentation. I will then open the meeting up to members to ask questions, which the witnesses will answer.

We will do them individually rather than banking the questions. I ask members to be concise in their questions and, perhaps, we will stick to five minutes each for the first question and then we can come back for additional questions, to give everyone an opportunity. I invite Mr. Cummins to make his opening statement.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I am pleased to be here this afternoon to assist the committee in its examination of the issues and challenges facing all of us in respect of housing and homelessness. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. Dick Brady, assistant city manager of Dublin City Council, Mr. Billy Coman, director of services of South Dublin County Council, and Mr. Cathal Morgan, director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executive.

The primary focus of local authorities is on social, economic and community development at local level, with social housing provision, social housing accommodation and homelessness having our absolute priority and full allocation of resources and efforts. Specifically, on housing, the local authorities are continually striving to match an increasing and diverse client profile with appropriate solutions. We are the planning authorities and the housing authorities and we have a very important role in facilitating housing provision and development with the private sector and the approved housing bodies. I am conscious that the emphasis today is on how the obstacles that are currently impeding progress on the issue can be surmounted and the specific actions that need to be taken to achieve urgent implementation of measures to address the problems involved.

Let me make it clear that the local authorities are dealing with the issues as a matter of urgency and with the attention that they undoubtedly deserve. For the sake of context, I feel it is important to note the following. In 2010, there were 2,846 unfinished housing developments in the country. The number has now reduced to under 700, resulting in 2,178 completions. In the same year, there were 23,250 complete and vacant houses in the country. The number is now down to under 2,500 houses as a result of local authority intervention, which has resulted in a further 20,700 houses being brought back into use. Local authorities acquired more than 1,000 properties last year. A new streamlined process for delivering social housing units of under €2,000,000 or 15 units in size has been approved, resulting in a quicker turnaround time. NAMA delivered 2,000 units for social housing by the end of last year.

Since its introduction, the housing assistance payment, HAP, has supported 8,000 households in the private rented sector across 19 local authorities with a target of 10,000 for this year. Increased rent supports on a case by case basis in HAP and rent supplement are now in place to reflect market conditions. Vacancy rates in social housing are down to as low as 1% in Dublin city. The first public private partnership was announced in October of last year and this will provide 500 homes across six sites in the greater Dublin area. The first 22 rapid build housing units are nearing completion and there is a target of 500 to be delivered in the Dublin region by the end of next year.

A new tenant purchase scheme was introduced in January of this year, providing opportunities for tenants to become home owners. The scheme is open to tenants, including joint tenants, of local authority houses that are available for sale under the scheme and who have been in receipt of social housing support for a minimum period of one year and have a minimum reckonable income of €15,000 per annum. An increasing number of local authorities have implemented a choice-based letting allocation system, empowering clients to have more options and say in the process. Funding for homeless services has increased by 32% since 2014. The sleeping rough figures fell by 46% in Dublin between November 2014 and November of last year.

Also, legislative and policy developments have been introduced to respond to the current crisis. These include a reformed Part V of the Planning and Development Act, changes in the private rented sector to limit rent reviews to every two years and the introduction of free mediation. A vacant site levy will apply from 2019 and new national apartment planning guidelines have been introduced. The Government has committed €10 million for an affordable rental scheme pilot in 2016, which works on the basis of tenants paying the majority of the rental costs from their own resources, with the State providing a subsidy to meet the shortfall. It is aimed at those on low to medium-sized incomes.

Let us be clear. A multifaceted approach is required to tackle these complex issues.

This needs a concerted effort and collaboration by all parties, including the political and regulatory system, the banking sector, the private rented sector, the construction industry and all those delivering housing solutions, including local authorities. We all need to understand that there are three key issues to be addressed, namely, supply versus demand, affordability and the need for developers to come back into the market. I will examine these one by one.

The first question is supply versus demand. As there has been little or no development over many years, the rate of growth of demand exceeds the rate of increase in supply. The population growth figures continue to rise, forcing a high demand for housing, and both social housing and private housing clients are competing for the same limited supply of units. There is an imbalance of availability within the major cities under pressure as compared with other counties. To address the demand problem, all stakeholders need to examine how to help people to get a mortgage to buy a home or rent. If we do not address affordability in accommodation, especially supports for low-income families, the problem will put increased pressure on public housing and funding. Caution is needed in keeping buyers with mortgage repayments or renters with rent repayments in place since the alternative only increases demand and tends to push up housing costs.

The question of affordability must be addressed. Many of those in employment are forced out of the market and into the private rented sector due to the lack of credit available for purchases and the lack of supply, thus driving up the price of units. The high cost of living is hampering the ability of individuals to save to purchase. These issues need to be addressed. There is also an increasing number of householders being displaced due to financial pressures. This is a concerning trend. We need to make every aspect of housing provision more affordable, including the cost of land, construction, labour, financing etc. We need to revisit tax incentives and credits for affordable housing. State investment in infrastructure for housing is required to reduce development contributions. Furthermore, we need to look at some of the additional costs of regulation.

The financial services market has an obligation to be part of the solution and should make credit available. There is a need for developers to come back into the market. We need to address the equity gap between the support of borrowing by banks and the willingness of developers as well as the capability to provide the required equity. Developers are protecting profit margins and balance sheet figures by not readily providing the required equity and, therefore, limiting the drawdown of credit. The continued move to availability of credit is important.

Like every other sector in Irish society, developers suffered in the economic downturn. We need to create an environment where quality developers and builders have the opportunity to share their experience and skills in building sustainable and quality homes for our citizens.

I call on the members of the committee to consider the issue of sustainable communities, whereby local authorities can plan accessible and well-serviced areas for all communities to thrive with easy accessibility to schools, community facilities, shopping centres and employment.

All citizens are stakeholders in this. We all need to adopt a culture that respects our communities and we all have a role in contributing to the provision and development of a good quality of life for our neighbours and ourselves. There are local difficulties with Part VIII provisions and there is no place in the mix for professional objectors who significantly frustrate local authorities and those engaged in the process of providing social housing. Changes in household composition and a trend toward smaller household sizes mean that the type of housing we will need will be different from the current stock.

I remind the committee of the serious challenges that all stakeholders must address as a matter of urgency. Homelessness is still an immediate priority, especially the growth in homeless families. The February homeless figures show a total of 5,811 as being homeless. Of these, a total of 3,930 are adults and 1,800 are children. There are 62,000 mortgages on principal dwellings and 29,000 buy-to-let mortgages in arrears of more than 90 days at the end of 2015.

In addition, 121,000 principal dwelling mortgages were categorised as restructured and there were also 5,200 local authority mortgages in arrears. Demand for housing continues to outstrip supply, particularly in the Dublin region. Of 12,660 housing completions last year, a little over one fifth were located in the four Dublin local authority areas. The demand for housing is particularly acute in Dublin. It has been estimated that 60% of the additional housing is needed in Dublin alone. All local authorities will continue to work hard with the key stakeholders and those affected to overcome these challenges. We need practical support and solutions to enable us to continue this work. It is becoming increasingly difficult for local authorities to lease or rent properties. The number of suitable buildings available for purchase by either local authorities or approved housing bodies, AHBs, is also reducing.

The funding provided under the Social Housing Strategy 2020 is significant and increasing rent caps would have a negative impact on an already stretched market. The immediate concern for local authorities is the supply-and-demand situation. Unless the private sector returns to building properties immediately the problem, including homelessness, is going to get worse. It would be remiss of me to conclude without putting on record the excellent relationship that exists between the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the approved housing bodies, the Housing Agency and the local authorities but the absence of the private sector is a major concern for us all because without it the problem will continue to worsen.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Cummins. Before I call the first member of the committee to ask questions I remind those asking and answering to keep the questions and answers as direct and specific as possible, rather than making long statements. Every member is afforded an opportunity for the first five minutes to direct their questions to our visitors. There will then be additional questions. I ask that questions and answers be kept to the point.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for coming before us. What is the best way to encourage the return of the private sector to the construction area? For example, are there builders available now who can be employed directly by the local authorities, on a contract basis, to build houses? I emphasise that this refers to direct build by the local authorities through the private sector. We have done this before on many occasions. To what extent do the witnesses think there are sites available, serviced or serviceable, within the areas most affected for those already homeless and those who will be homeless as various properties are sold or repossessed? How long do they think it would take to start providing modular housing? What provisions are necessary for that?

There have been discussions from time to time about the extent to which procurement impedes the speedy provision of housing. What, if anything, needs to be changed about procurement? How long do the witnesses think they would require to address the emergency in the greater Dublin area, adjoining counties or other counties if the money were available tomorrow morning, which it will be? How long before there would be houses ready for people to move into?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I want to stress that the solution to these problems warrants a collaboration between all of the stakeholders, the AHBs, local authorities and the private sector. Even if the local authorities were to build all the houses we have planned to build that will not solve the problem. We need the private sector to be involved. This is a huge solution.

It is not just about providing social housing in terms of building it. It is about having a suite of measures and options available to us including purchasing, leasing, renting and building.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Just to be helpful from the committee's point of view, the other sectors will be visited. Deputy Durkan is speaking specifically to the role and responsibility of local authorities. Builders, private building and all of that will be dealt with in other modules.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Dick Brady to respond on the issue of modular housing.

Mr. Dick Brady:

Before I get to that, there are a couple of things regarding planning and sites ready. At this point there are 22,000 sites that have planning permission in the Dublin region. There are somewhere in the order of 4,000 units under construction. Taking applications, serviced zones and serviced lands, the total amount available would be somewhere in the order of 80,000. To answer the Deputy's question about serviced land, it is available. That is the first thing I would say.

Families will be shown around the first 22 modular units tomorrow. We will start to see occupation towards the end of this week and into next week. Looking at the timeframe involved, the Government issued its instruction some time around October and here we are now in April. The units have been procured and built and are ready for occupation. We are talking about 20 weeks or thereabouts to push along with 22 units. We also have 131 units in train. Site development works have been tendered in respect of those. Our first works are starting in Finglas either today or tomorrow. There was a little difficulty at the start but that has been resolved. Tomorrow they should be on site and we will move forward with the rest of them. Those units should be available for occupation some time in the autumn. For a normal build of that nature, we could be talking about two and a half to three years from planning to build-out. There is scope within the rapid build model to get early results.

Mr. Billy Coman:

In respect of procurement, we are going to be different from Dublin city and the other authorities. The Office of Government Procurement, OGP, is working on a national framework and the other local authorities will be operating from that. There will be a procurement process but it will stem from an already established framework that will be in place. Work has started on that already.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can that process be shortened? The case being presented to me is that it takes a long time.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Up until 2015 we were actually purchasing social housing units because of the huge glut of properties that were available and at best value. It was not until last year that money was made available for actually going to construction. We have been looking for approval and have been planning Part 8 projects, the whole process of procurement, tendering and going to tender. The first tranche of houses will be in 2017. The procurement process is very lengthy. It is outside of our control as it is a statutory, regulatory process.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I thank the gentlemen for coming in. On page one of his statement, Mr. Cummins describes how a new streamlined process has been developed for delivering social housing of up to €2 million or 15 units, so that the units can be delivered faster. Mr. Cummins should correct me if I am wrong - my understanding is that this is a devolved grant whereby the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has to give just one approval and off we go and do the work.

I understand local authorities are being saddled with any risk involved in that. If they have budgets and then come across abnormal costs, they have to take them on. Is that, in a way, making this less attractive for local authorities?

If the threshold were raised to, for example, €5 million with four units as a base number, would it help matters? Do we know how many voids exist in each local authority in each county? What is the cost of refurbishing such units? In an emergency situation, that would be the first step to put houses in place. Do we know the potential number of infill sites in towns and cities that can be bought by local authorities and on which houses can be erected?

Mr. Brady referred to 22,000 sites that have planning in the greater Dublin area. Is that what he said?

Mr. Dick Brady:

That is correct.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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They have Part VIII planning. When he said 22,000 sites are available-----

Mr. Dick Brady:

To clarify, that figure refers to sites with commercial private planning permission through the normal planning process.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Okay.

Mr. Dick Brady:

The figure does not refer to Part VIII planning permission.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I want to know how much zoned land is within the grasp of the public sector or local authorities, how much of it has planning permission, how much of it is serviced and how much of it is what I would call shovel-ready for tenders. Is that information available across counties? Has it been collated by the Department?

I have a number of other questions. Local authorities would have had land and would have serviced sites which they would then have made available to individuals to build houses. Is that an option? Would such a plan speed up the process?

On the issue of voids, one problem we have is estate management. I have seen good and bad examples, and voids develop fairly quickly where there is not good estate management. Do the witnesses have any proposals or suggestions on how to improve it? It is a resource issue, but it pays for itself in the long term.

Are the witnesses concerned about the fact that private property developers are buying up land, especially in the greater Dublin area? One particular builder has bought in excess of 20% of the land and his company is raising money on the London Stock Exchange to buy land here on, I presume, the basis that it will wait for greater scarcity and for land values to increase. Do the witnesses have any suggestions on how we, as legislators, can curtail such practice?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I shall answer some of the questions. In regard to the €2 million and 15 units, we would be quite happy with that. It will speed up things in terms of the smaller packages of units, something which applies to most local authorities. Local authorities have to manage risk, but if there are unforeseen risks, such as ground conditions, we will have an opportunity to revert to the Department. I would not see a major benefit to increasing the cap beyond the stated figure. I am sure that as we progress we will examine it.

In terms of the opportunities that present themselves in towns and villages in the form of derelict sites that are serviced and contributions, there are opportunities and we are examining the area. The Department will look very favourably on proposals we bring to it, provided there is a need.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I cannot comment on Deputy Canney's comments on some developers holding land and perhaps waiting for the market to improve. There is no question that land is being held up, for whatever reason I do not know.

Regarding better estate management, there are actions we can take. I ask Mr. Coman to comment on how we might deal with that.

Mr. Billy Coman:

Regarding vacant units and voids, it is important to recall that between 2014 and 2015, 5,000 units throughout the country were brought back into stock and tenanted through a programme, with financial assistance from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. Nobody wants to see voids in their area. Some local authorities are very good at managing that for a number of reasons but, unfortunately, a small number of local authorities struggle with it for a variety of reasons unique to those areas. Quick turnaround is important, and the turnaround has improved greatly across all the local authorities nationally.

In terms of anti-social behaviour, voids tend to be a magnet for anti-social behaviour because they are a gathering point. For that reason, every effort is made to bring those back into tenancy where at all possible. There are greater powers resting with local authorities to deal with anti-social behaviour. There is a whole process attached to it in terms of warning letters, rights of appeal and so on, but at least it is a streamlined process that everyone can follow.

Photo of John BrassilJohn Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the city and county managers. I have a few questions. Regarding the previous census, do the witnesses have figures on empty properties? In Kerry the figure is 10,000, which is substantial. The solution in Kerry might be different from what it is in Dublin but I am still interested to know if the witnesses have figures for Dublin.

In terms of the results of the census taken last Sunday night, I have a thought around giving the owners of empty houses an incentive to do them up. A grant scheme could be introduced whereby those houses would be done up and the return would be that the houses would be made available to the city and county managers for rent under a long-term lease or some such arrangement. Is there merit in pursuing such a proposal? There certainly is in rural counties. Would it be beneficial in Dublin? My thought process is that it is much quicker to renovate something that is already built than starting from a greenfield site. I would like the witnesses' views on that, and if it is worth pursuing, it is something we should pursue.

What brings about homelessness? Is it repossession by banks or landlords not renewing tenancies? What is the key driver of homelessness and do we have a red flag system whereby a bank would contact a local authority to indicate that specific mortgages were in arrears and a problem could arise shortly? Do we have an ability in such a case to try to sort it? Allowing a family to become homeless becomes an expensive, cumbersome and difficult process for everybody whereas it would be very beneficial if we could solve the problem before it arises. We may have something in place but, if not, I hope we put something in place.

The following is an obvious question. Is money a problem for the witnesses? If they had more money available to them, could we solve the problem more quickly? There are anomalies with the local property tax, for example, whereby some local authorities have given a cut to the tax which has been of no great value to the householder because it does not amount to more than two or three euro a week per household, whereas in Kerry we have kept it at the set rate and we have an extra €2 million to invest. I believe in Dublin it would be as much as €15 million. Would that money go a long way to solving many of the problems?

I have looked at the tenant purchase scheme and I am struggling with it. It seems that the people who can afford to buy the house simply do not qualify and the people who cannot afford it qualify.

It is a nonsensical proposal. Is there is a need for a tenant purchase scheme? Is it wanted? Is it a model we should move away from? The majority of voids on any local authority housing estate are those that have been purchased, where the parents have passed on and the children have moved away, meaning the house is lying there doing nothing. I wonder, in the context of long-term housing benefit, whether we should continue with such a scheme. Respond and the other housing associations do not have a purchase policy and they retain houses for continued use, which might need to be considered.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Before I hand over to Mr. Cathal Morgan, I wish to refer to the significant numbers of vacant houses across the country and, especially, holiday homes in Counties Kerry and Clare. There is not necessarily need everywhere there are vacant houses, so we have to match housing to need. There are many vacant houses and unfinished estates throughout the country, especially in rural counties, but there is no expressed need for them. I like the Deputy's idea of incentivising people to get vacant houses back into the leasing market.

With regard to the question on the number of voids in Dublin and homelessness, I will ask Mr. Morgan to take that.

Mr. Cathal Morgan:

With regard to the census, it makes eminent sense to use that data to attract as much property in that sector to social use as possible. I would caution against using the previous census, as opposed to Sunday's census, because the data may be just way too out of date, particularly in the Dublin region. It is my understanding that the CSO has agreed to issue a priority report on the basis of Sunday's census to make available data that will help housing authorities and AHBs to go after the property that is available.

The other note of caution we sound relates to our experience of constant campaigning around leasing arrangements and the HAP. Local authorities are at this on a day-to-day basis. There have been numerous campaigns to attract properties from the private rental sector. We have to face the fact that Dublin has substantial constraints when it comes to making properties available. That is a fact of life and that will be the case for some time. We have made huge efforts regarding how we, as a sector, co-ordinate access to the private rental sector. For example, in Dublin, we have set up a unique Dublin Place Finder Service. Rather than having numerous housing bodies and homeless services going after the same types of property and contacting landlords, we have one unit that makes contact with all property owners. Six full-time staff try to attract landlords into the HAP on a day-to-day basis. There has been some success. In Dublin, specifically under the homelessness remit, we have secured more than 180 HAP properties since late last year. That, therefore, has taken a few hundred people out of the homeless system. We will take the recent census data and we will do our best to go after properties in so far as they are available to us.

With regard to the reasons households become homeless, everyone knows and accepts there is not only one reason. It is a complex dynamic. Households may have complex social and health care needs ranging from addiction to mental health, and sometimes both combined, and may, for different reasons, be unable to manage their existing tenancies, which they then fall out of, or there may be a relationship breakdown, which is a significant factor. That dynamic has absolutely shifted in the past few years. The vast majority of families presenting are coming to us because their primary need is housing. It is straightforward. Concerns have been raised about managing day-to-day life, particularly in respect of income adequacy and poverty, which has become a huge factor for families, but the greatest cause of concern as a result of that is the level of insecurity within the private rental sector.

We are satisfied that there has been substantial change from the point of view of trying to put rent certainty - in so far as it is rent certainty - in place to help existing tenants. We know that, given the squeeze on the private rental sector, families are losing their private rental tenancies and sometimes going home or going to friends, not wanting to come to us but eventually ending up on our doorstep looking for emergency responses.

We are an advocate for two other things which we think would help, if we are looking at solutions. The mortgage-to-rent scheme is something we would like to see kept in place and expanded and improved upon. We have also been on the record as calling for rent receiverships. This is something we are asking financial institutions in particular to come on board with. The principle here has to be that we cannot have a situation in which households are being made homeless. If that is our working principle, to what degree can we change the current situation when a mortgage gets into difficulty? If a landlord is renting a property out and he or she gets into difficulty, can we have rent receiverships whereby the family stays in place or goes into a mortgage-to-rent scheme, so that, at least, breathing space can be provided to that household to look at the alternatives over a period of time? It does not make sense to us because what happens then is that a family becomes homeless and unfortunately ends up in a commercial hotel setting, which means that, ultimately, we pay more. We have always said this is absolutely unsustainable. It makes sense for the State to be able to stand back and ask what can be done to alleviate this.

It is important also to say that we have not just been standing idly by. We have had excellent co-operation with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Department of Social Protection. I can only speak for the Dublin region to this extent, but we established a tenancy protection service in the Dublin region which will now be spread out to the surrounding commuter belt. It is an early intervention whereby Threshold intervenes with the family. If the family is in difficulty paying its rent and is in receipt of rent supplement, there is a direct intervention made with the Department of Social Protection. That initiative alone is not solving every problem. We are facing a huge calamity, but since that service was set up in 2014, 1,905 tenancies have been protected as a result of that specific scheme. Obviously it cannot protect every tenancy from falling down, because of the factors I have just mentioned such as receiverships.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the representatives of the County and City Management Association. It is clear from what they have said that they have put a lot of thought into the area of housing. I have a few questions, one of which the witnesses can come back to. In terms of best practice elsewhere, what has happened in other jurisdictions and in local authorities in the United Kingdom? Obviously we should not and cannot reinvent the wheel, but this has happened before, even in Ireland. It happened in the 1970s. It happened in the United Kingdom after the Second World War. If it is possible, will the representatives inform us what systems or schemes their research tells them worked? On that point, one thing that strikes me, looking at the 1911 census, is the number of people who lived in the centre of towns and over shops and businesses. That is practically gone, certainly in Drogheda and Dundalk. Would it make sense to have an attractive scheme, tax-incentivised, to allow developers or owners of those properties to upgrade to an apartment? The problem will be the physical size, shape and the type of those buildings but, provided they meet fire regulations, is there any reason we could not fast-track planning in town centres? Clearly it would help single applicants and childless couples, although it would not necessarily suit families with young children. It seems to me it is an obvious place where we could make a significant difference.

Some years ago there was a scheme under which local authority tenants could be assisted in buying homes. For example, I am a local authority tenant and I am working and have a certain amount of money saved, but maybe I cannot make the 10% deposit. I know families like that. Obviously there would have to be an affordability test, but is there a case to be made for people to get a significant grant to help them buy a home?

That could relieve pressure for people and the house could be handed back to the local authority if they vacate the tenancy. Is that worth looking at?

I agree with the comments other people have made about empty homes, which is very important.

Many housing applicants who come to me are concerned about the treatment they get in local authorities. It is not specific to any place or time. In some areas people have to do their business in public through hatches and everybody can hear their problems. I do not like that and I think it should end. Perhaps the County and City Management Association might have a view on that.

The question was asked as to who or what causes homelessness. I have a different question. On Friday afternoon somebody who is homeless called to my office in Drogheda. Through no fault of their own nobody in the council could make a decision on that case on a Friday afternoon and that person ended up homeless again for that weekend. In such cases, should we not insist on a system whereby decisions can be made on those cases?

Sometimes some local authorities can put applicants into hostels and hotels. Some local authorities do not do that. The Department assures me that the funding is there to put somebody into a place of safety, but it does not necessarily happen. Do the witnesses propose any changes that ought to be made regarding homelessness? There should be uniformity of treatment across all local authorities. Regardless of who those people are and where they come from, there should be the same positive reception to their needs and no doors should be closed against them for any technical or other reason.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I am conscious that Deputy Brassil asked about tenant purchase and whether money was a problem. Perhaps we might come back to that as well.

Deputy O'Dowd asked about best practice. We have looked at best practice across Europe and in the UK. It is very hard for us, representing the local authority sector, to have the broader conversation. We are here to assist and come back again, if necessary, to have the conversation. I emphasise that we on our own cannot solve the problem.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

We must have the private sector. We have looked at best practice. Across the world we did not have that cessation of private sector building.

Mr. Dick Brady:

In comparing the system in the Republic of Ireland with the rest of Europe, we operate on a differential rent system and the rest would operate either on a commercial rent or some kind of affordable rent system. That is an extremely important point because differential rent is based on the ability to pay and is not based on the ability to maintain the properties or the costs of the service. If one is looking for best practice or if one wants to examine how we might change things into the future, it may require us to look at the basic principle of the differential rent. If somebody is in need of support, there may be other ways in which that support can be given other than through the differential rent system.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Deputy O'Dowd asked many important questions, especially regarding incentivising in the centre of towns and over commercial premises. Obviously a very strong need must be identified in whatever area or town it is. If we are having incentives, they should be specifically targeted at an area or a town and focused on renting. There is no point in refurbishing a building unless it is to be made available to rent or lease. It does not matter if it is to the AHBs, to us or to the private sector, provided it is there.

There is merit in that and I believe it is a great idea. Incentives in specific, targeted areas where there is a need for new builds, in particular the incentivising of developers who are building new properties to rent, would also be worth considering.

We need to be careful in regard to giving grants because we cannot fuel the market. It is supply versus demand and the market is very sensitive to supports and subsidies. We all know the mistakes that were made in the past and we have to be very careful we do not go there again.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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We had a scheme years ago where a local authority tenant could get a significant grant - I am referring to a specific category of person with the income to sustain the bonded property. It made the difference between the tenant being able to buy a home or not.

Mr. Billy Coman:

I refer to Deputy Brassil's query about the tenant purchase scheme because the two are very much interlinked. We had experience of this incentivisation before and, unfortunately, it did not work for many people and it affected communities.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I disagree with Mr. Coman on that. I remember it well, although it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be open to the committee to draw its own conclusions afterwards.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept that, but I do not like it to be shot down just like that.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not being shot down; it is being explained.

Mr. Billy Coman:

I am certainly not shooting down the Deputy; I am just telling him of my experience. I have seen situations where strong people within communities, who could afford to move, did move, despite the incentives that came with it. The tenant purchase scheme has been linked with that over many years. It affords people in communities - strong people - the opportunity to stay within that community but to own the home.

With regard to the incremental purchase scheme, I am convinced there are enough safeguards within that in terms of exclusions. The Deputy rightly asks why we should sell local authority stock at a time when we have a shortage of social housing. However, apart from that, we have to keep strong people who can afford it and who want to own their home, and we can provide for that, which is important. Nonetheless, within the scheme there are quite a number of exclusions that can be applied. For example, one could exclude all the one-beds because, in terms of homelessness, single units are the biggest category of need. An area we should be looking at is the number of social housing units which have two, three or four bedrooms but only one person living in them. We must examine the provision of step-down accommodation in regard to offering a very safe and secure place for people of a like mind, who are happy to move closer to services, public transport and shopping. I believe that will free up some stock.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I have many questions but I will distil them into the time we have. The first question is why it is taking so long to produce housing. Mr. Dick Brady stated it would normally take two and a half years for a development to come about. Why does it take that long if the council owns the land? Mr. Brady referred to a period of 22 weeks for modular houses to be brought about. I dispute that it should take that long for housing developments to come about and I want to hear what are the obstacles. While I am not doubting what Mr. Brady is saying, we need to hear what the obstacles are, because that is the purpose of this committee.

An estate, Hollywoodrath, in Tyrellstown, is being built half a mile from my home. The housing started in September and was finished in December - it was built in three months because it was timber-framed housing and the rest of the work was just put up. It is now being advertised for sale.

If they can build it so quickly, why can permanent homes not be built as quickly?

Why are the targets for local authorities so low? I recently met the housing director for Fingal County Council and the manager assured us it was reaching its targets. The fact that it is reaching its targets when we have a homelessness epidemic in parts of Fingal scares me.

It was stated earlier that 25,000 people are on the Dublin City Council housing list. However, the target for 2015 to 2017 is for only 3,347 new units. That is set out on page 15 of Laying the Foundations. This is across all schemes, including private rental and acquisitions. It would only impact on 21% of Dublin City Council's housing list. We have these really low targets that the councils are able to reach but they are not actually doing anything for the housing crisis. It is the same in all the local authority areas in Dublin and in those on the commuter belt - where the crisis is at its worst - such as Wicklow and Kildare. The figure for Dublin City Council is 21%, while it is 23% in the Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council areas. The problem is that the targets are too low. How management can say it has enough money is beyond me. Mr. Cummins stated that there is enough money but it is not working so why would it be enough?

The idea of depending on the private sector to provide affordable, secure housing - a concept Mr. Cummins has invoked frequently - has not worked and is clearly failing. Mr. Cummins stated that unless the private sector builds houses, the problem will worsen. He also stated that local authorities can only build 10% to 15% of what is required. Can he explain that? Is he saying that the local authorities are only allowed to build 10% to 15% of social housing? Was he referring to passing it to housing agencies? What did he mean? These are the obstacles we need to know about in order to overcome them. In an edition of "This Week" broadcast by RTE on 27 March 2016 in which the question of housing was investigated, it was stated that processes to find off-balance sheet funding for thousands of social housing units have failed. In other words, if a county manager is waiting for the private sector to provide the housing, he or she will be disappointed.

Why is the capital funding to actually build houses still so low in respect of all the targets? On the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government's website, it is stated that €500 million will be allocated this year for capital spend. In 2008, it was €1.45 billion. It is one third of what it was in 2008, yet a housing crisis that is beyond belief has developed since then. Why is management saying it is happy enough with the amount of money it is receiving?

In respect of modular housing, why is valuable council land being taken up with temporary housing? I know that solutions must be found and I am aware of how desperate is the situation. However, why is the council proceeding with expensive modular homes in Finglas, Poppintree and Fingal when, as has been reported in the Dublin People, there are approximately 40 houses, ranging in value from €115,000 to €200,000 - so they cost less than the modular houses - for sale on a property website? Why is there not more emphasis on acquiring them? Likewise, there are properties in Dublin 17 for sale for as little as €80,000. Some 14 houses in Dublin 10 with an average asking price of €150,000 are currently on the market. There were 20 homes in Dublin 12 for sale at less than €200,000 each so they would have been cheaper than modular homes. Why are they not being pursued?

I do not think we should say affordable housing is a matter for the private sector. The local authorities played a role in the past.

I live in an affordable house which I bought from a local authority. I would like to see that vacuum being filled by the local authorities, so as to provide housing to workers who cannot get on the social housing list and who are being screwed with really high rents of €1,400, €1,500 and even €2,000. In his presentation, the manager said this was up to the private sector. I hope he does not think the local authorities or the public sector cannot play a role in this.

It is difficult for members to raise some questions with Mr. Morgan that we would have liked to. Maybe he could come back-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We can address that separately. When every member has had an opportunity to ask questions, further time will be available.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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There are key issues with the placement service in Dublin. It is difficult to raise it in this time slot.

Mr. Dick Brady:

There has been a wide range of questions.

Regarding the development at Hollywoodrath, which took three months, before that got the go-ahead, it had to go for planning permission and someone had to find finance, etc. One will probably find there was actually a long lead-in with this project.

Our modular units are rapid-build units, not temporary but regular houses.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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They have a lifespan of 30 years, though.

Mr. Dick Brady:

They have a lifespan of 60 years. They are not temporary. These are regular houses. All of the elected representatives in the Dublin region were invited to look at the units when they were launched to see for themselves what we were talking about. We are not talking about temporary houses. The houses the Deputy mentioned in Hollywoodrath probably used the same construction methods used in the rapid houses in Ballymun. These are good quality, A-rated houses fit for families. They are not temporary. If I get that message across today-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Are they transient? Are they for people to move in and out of?

Mr. Dick Brady:

That is a different matter altogether. Where did we start with this? Two years ago, the city council and the homeless executive saw that we had a problem coming over the hill. Families were being made homeless and the only places we could put them into were hotels. We agreed at that time with our elected members that hotels were not suitable places for families to be brought up in and we needed to do something about this. We had a three-prong strategy. Part one was to keep people in their properties for as long as they could. To do that, we made two suggestions. One was rent receivership, while the other was to give advice to people to help them stay there. This was advice and intervention from Threshold.

The second part of the strategy was to come up with an intermediate solution that would provide rapid-build homes in which people could live while we got on with the second part of the operation - namely, finding accommodation more suitable for their needs. These units, which people are calling transient, will be put in place in order for us to keep families in humane conditions while we find them alternative accommodation. I do not believe there is anything more transient than a hotel room. I believe the move towards rapid-build, as well as using it in the manner I have described, is a far better proposition for the citizens, the families and the children of this country.

The local authorities do not operate in a vacuum. All the targets we operate come from the Government's social housing strategy to 2020. Each local authority has been given its portion of those units that it must provide. Part of that strategy shows some 75,000 units being provided through the private sector by means of leasing, HAP, RAS, or some other variation. That is the framework in which we are working. When the managers say they are meeting their targets, they are meeting the targets as set by the Government.

With regard to money, the State has financed that particular programme. In speaking about money, it is worth understanding that the country collapsed some time around 2008 and the amount of money available to the State to put into housing and other essential services was extremely limited. It is only in recent times that we have started to see some sort of uplift and space in which the Government can move money. Somebody asked a question on off-balance sheet borrowing and so forth. The State has bought into a financial compact with its European partners and we have made agreements with the EU and the International Monetary Fund, IMF, relating to the State's borrowing. We in the local authorities have to abide by those rules just as much as the State as a whole. Those rules can and are causing some problems for housing finance.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the delegation for the presentations. I have four short questions and three somewhat bigger queries. The presentation references 8,000 housing assistance payment, HAP, tenancies. What percentage of those are new tenancies and what percentage are rolling over from rent supplement? That would be people living in the same property but changing payment. The witness spoke about a target of 10,000 HAPs for next year but is that an extra 2,000 or 10,000 on top of the 8,000 that were mentioned? That is just for clarity. The witness mentioned 2,000 NAMA units. Are they tenanted units and are people living in those? Mr. Morgan is not able to tell us the outcome of the rough sleepers count because it is being processed but is he in a position to give us an indication as to whether it is up or down on the last year's figure? The last half year was down on the previous period.

I am one of the people who thinks we should stop calling the properties in Poppintree modular homes because they have timber frames, unlike the original modular properties presented at an early stage. It is an important difference. The potential cost is concerning some of us and there are all sorts of figures flying around. Is Mr. Brady in a position to clarify the issue raised by RTE approximately a week or so ago regarding the extra €500,000 or so, and whether that is related to construction costs or something else? That would help clarify the matter.

I have three substantive questions. This committee is going to try to compile a report and make recommendations on how to improve matters. We are not looking for people to come in and criticise some other agency or body. We are trying to identify weaknesses in the system so we can say to the Dáil and, I hope, the Government that certain changes could be helpful. There are three particular areas and I hope whoever is most appropriate can comment on them.

With respect to the new build programmes, what most of us do not understand is what happens between when the Part 8 scheme is agreed and the key is turned. Nobody has ever explained what are those processes. It would be really helpful if one of the witnesses would talk us through what is the process. Mr. Brady used the term "etc." and clearly the witnesses know this. We would like to know it too. It seems that it is one of the problems that a committee like this could usefully look at. We could see how we can shorten that period. It is two to three years from when a local authority makes a decision that it would be good to have houses in an area to when those houses are opened but it takes six months to build timber-framed houses. Surely procurement is of a similar nature and the requirements of spending are the same in both cases. How can we build the timber-framed houses in six months but brick houses take three years? It would be helpful for us to know that.

My second question relates to large-scale projects. Those of us who have just come from local authorities may have been passing through Part 8 schemes with ten or 15 units. I have pickled Mr. Coman's poor head about this but in the South Dublin County Council area there are 44 acres of land in the Grange in Bawnogue. It is prime land for social housing and is caught up in discussions around public-private partnerships that seem to be interminable. Is it the case that local authorities are not in a position to put larger-scale proposals to the Department that would at least circumvent some of the difficulties with the private sector investment?

Is that something that this committee should examine? If there are 44 acres of land, and one could have units in the multiples of hundreds rather than tens, is that not something we could look at?

My third question is on acquisitions. No matter how quickly one shortens the process, building the units from planning to turning the key takes time. There are, as Deputy Coppinger mentioned, lots of units available, many of which are in local authority estates and are in the private market.

In terms of funding allocations for local authorities for the first three years of the 2020 strategy, almost €300 million has been allocated to Dublin City Council and €75 million to South Dublin County Council. How much of that funding can be spent on the acquisition of properties that are turnkey ready? Has the Department set a limit? Can local authorities spend as much of that funding as they want? Is there an argument for acquiring properties that are stuck in all sorts of legal difficulties but would be valuable social housing units? Can CPOs be used in such cases? Is that a way of increasing the number of units? Clearly, it is quicker to buy a unit that is turnkey ready than it is to build a timber-framed house. I am interested in this aspect.

My final question is on refurbishments. Is the delegation aware of units - in the local authority areas of which it is aware - that could be refurbished but for central government will not provide funding because it would be above whatever is the limit? Is that an avenue we should pursue?

Mr. Cummins emphasised the involvement of the private sector. I know he will not agree with or comment on what I shall say next but I just want to put it out there. In the context of over-reliance on the private sector, part of the problem is that under the Government strategy, 80% of the units that local authorities have as targets are in the private sector. In both instances, new builds for South Dublin County Council and Dublin City Council represent 17% of the total target for local authorities. A few extra refurbishments and acquisitions would bring that figure up to just 20%. I would like Mr. Cummins to answer but I know he will not. Would it not be helpful if the target set for local authorities by central government was not just 20% direct provision by them and housing associations but, rather, 40% or 80%? The measure would mean local authorities could get on with their business. If the money is there, surely that would be a better way of delivering those units?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Before I invite my colleagues to respond, a few significant questions have been posed and Deputy Canney broached the matter as well. There is a significant amount of land available to local authorities that we have bought over the years. As the communities that I listed in my presentation are sustainable, it is neither possible nor desirable to build out large tracts of land for social housing only. History shows that a good social mix is needed. We must be very careful, therefore, that we do not go down that road again. It is very tempting to obtain 40 acres of land and build social houses on it but that would create untold difficulties. It is unfair, inequitable and has caused huge problems in the past. When we are building out lands, especially in rural areas - not so much in cities - we need to be careful that there is a good mix of properties available. As referenced in our document, we must have full regard for the concept of sustainable communities.

It must be remembered - Deputy Coppinger also referred to this - that local authorities are not developers. We are developers in some instances but in the strict sense of the word, we are not. If we were to build out what we could as soon as possible, it would improve the situation but would not solve the problem. There were over 20,000 properties available after the collapse and we bought most of them. In other words, we purchased most of the properties that were available to buy and that represented good value for money. The properties that are left are either not in areas of need or are unsuitable for other reasons - perhaps they were not properly built or there are other issues with them. We have had due regard to all of that and we have purchased most of the properties in question.

I call on Mr. Coman to deal with the questions relating to HAP.

Mr. Billy Coman:

We expect to have 10,000 tenancies in 2016, comprising a mix of new tenancies and a transfer of existing tenants in receipt of rent supplement.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Are those 10,000 in addition to the existing 8,000? In other words, an extra 10,000 tenancies.

Mr. Billy Coman:

Yes. There were 8,000 delivered in 2015. There is a move to deal with the existing rent supplement tenants and to transfer those to HAP. The process in this regard is going to be ramped up.

It will be ramped up, particularly by the wave 1 authorities during this year.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage of the 8,000 consists of transfers from rent supplement?

Mr. Billy Coman:

It is quite low at the moment. I will say that. To give-----

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be 25%?

Mr. Billy Coman:

It is about 20. I think nationally it is about 20, but I will confirm that.

It is important to realise that we look at all options. We have to. Housing construction was only kickstarted where the funding became available in 2015 and it does take time. Local authorities had not been in the house-building game since 2008. It took a long time to build up that expertise and get the necessary expertise back in there again. It was a matter of identifying ideal sites, the proper locations. I take the Deputy's point that there is a lot of infill in there, but these are ones that we can turn around and do so as quickly as possible in areas where we have a housing need. This started in 2015 and realistically it is going to be 2017 and into 2018 before we will realise the plans for new construction. In the meantime, there are other options and avenues to look at. HAP is one and acquisitions is very much part of it, as is closer collaboration, which Mr. Cummins mentioned quite a bit through his presentation.

Local authorities are only one of the stakeholders. The approved housing bodies are a vital cog in the strategy itself in delivering social housing. That collaboration is getting stronger all the time. Approved housing bodies can borrow. That is one of the avenues. They can borrow to construct, which we cannot. We are working with them and for the Dublin region we have now developed a series of protocols for working together under four different streams directly with the Irish Council for Social Housing to ensure that it has the capacity to deliver on the strong role it has to play in terms of that.

There has been a reliance on the private sector for centuries and that has not changed. Deputies may say there is an over-reliance on the private sector and it is within their gift to say that. Whether I agree with that or not is not for me to say, but there is a strategy which has and continues to rely on the private sector. It has delivered heretofore, but what is needed is stronger regulation and security of tenure. Those are two avenues that have to be explored.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

In relation to the process that Deputy Ó Broin-----

Mr. Dick Brady:

Maybe we will come back to the Poppintree thing. There is a limit to what I can say about that at the moment, given that the final account has not been agreed in respect of the site and given that we have another procurement process on the way in relation to the balance. It would not be proper to say anything. As soon as the final accounts are agreed, I will gladly release all those numbers to the general public for scrutiny. There is no issue-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Cummins have something further to add?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

On the procurement and why it takes so long-----

Mr. Dick Brady:

Regarding rapid-build housing, I am sure members know that when the Government made a decision back in October 2015 to move with rapid-build housing, it was decided that the first 150 or thereabouts would be using an ultra-fast procurement system and the balance of 350 would be using normal procurement. When I say "normal procurement", that has changed somewhat and the OGP is working on a framework in respect of it. In respect of the first 150, the city manager, in accordance with the planning Act, under section 179 said that having people in hotels and getting them out of hotels was an emergency and invoked emergency planning in order to move forward with the first 150 units.

It is my understanding that the second tranche of 350 will move in the normal planning arena.

In order to address the issue of families in hotels, the city manager declared that we had an emergency planning situation. When one marries an emergency planning situation with an ultra fast procurement system, one gets a condensed first half of the game, which made the timeframe extremely short.

In terms of the normal procurement process, there are approximately five different stages that we must go through. First, a proposal must be developed. That proposal must then be approved by the Department. When it comes back from the Department, we then prepare the Part 8 proposal. The Part 8 proposal then goes through council and as Deputies know, that can take some time. That is the planning side of things. When the Part 8 proposal comes back, we must draw up tender documentation, carry out a cost-benefit analysis and essentially price the job. All of that gets sent to the Department for approval and there can be an amount of to-ing and fro-ing in that process. When that is approved and the drawings are finalised, the job goes out to tender. When it comes back from tender, an analysis of the tenders must be carried out and a recommendation made. That recommendation then goes back to the Department, which approves it and gives us permission to go ahead. We then carry out due diligence on the winning tender and away we go.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask two quick supplementary questions-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to Deputy Ó Broin because there are several-----

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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They are directly related to the-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Very quickly please because there are eight people still-----

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any reason the sped-up process for the rapid build units could not be used for regular Part 8 projects, once the planning process has been gone through? Second, specifically with regard to the point made by Mr. Cummins, is there anything preventing a local authority submitting a proposal for a large-scale development which includes social housing, cost-rental and affordable housing to achieve the income mix that Government policy requires? Is that something that could be done? Are there any obstacles to that?

Mr. Dick Brady:

I will answer part of the Deputy's question. Part 8 is a particular planning process which was dispensed with in the context of what was deemed to be an emergency-----

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is the post-planning part I am asking about.

Mr. Dick Brady:

There had to be a declared emergency.

The Deputy asked a question about mixed tenure developments. He will know that Dublin City Council has been trying, for the last 12 months or so, through an initiative called the land initiative, to develop three sites which have the potential to produce approximately 1,300 units. We are in the process of moving that along. While it is moving along, concerns have been expressed in some quarters. The communities adjacent to some of the proposed developments are extremely worried about their scale, even though the intention is to produce social housing alongside owner-occupier housing as well as another type of tenure that we are trying to develop. We see a gap in the market in that we have families who are not entitled to social housing but who cannot afford to purchase property. We see the need for some form of affordable renting in the mix. We could have what we are calling public housing which would be a mixture of affordable rental and social housing, supplemented by units for purchase. We are hoping to bring proposals to the council for one of the sites quite soon but are still working on the proposals for the other two sites.

What we are trying to do is to bring such a model to fruition.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I want to mention-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy Coppinger please hold on? Some eight other people have offered and I must be fair to all members. I will allow additional questions after everybody has had the opportunity to speak.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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May I clarify the number of sites with planning permission and the number under construction? Mr. Brady states that 22,000 sites have planning permission and 4,000 sites are under construction. Are the 4,000 sites under construction part of the total 22,000 sites with planning permission?

Mr. Dick Brady:

Yes.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Has Dublin City Council the capacity on its own or in partnership with other private housing groups to meet the housing needs of those on the waiting list? I know that is a very broad question.

The Docklands was designated as a strategic development zone, SDZ. The 10% of houses which will be allocated to social housing is extremely low. I am aware of the issues, including the dangers of ghettoisation that Mr. Brady raised in his previous answer, but 10% is extremely low. Could this committee recommend that the figure of 10% be increased? We know there will be office and business type developments in the Docklands and housing will be built to attract employees to rent in the area. I am making a plea for people who need some place to live.

I know progress has been made on the turnaround of vacant housing, however the level of voids in Dublin Central is unacceptable. We know that it is costing a great deal and takes time to clear out perfectly good accommodation. Can that issue be looked at? I know new tenants want to put their own stamp on the place, but we know of cases where really good accommodation is being gutted. That is a waste of time and money. Has the city council the manpower with the skills to turn around the voids quickly in light of the Minister's statement on one occasion that money was no object in respect of voids?

When we visited the site of the modular houses in East Wall, the costs were extremely reasonable but the costs have risen considerably in certain places. What can be done about rising costs?

The average waiting period on the housing list is lengthening. Is it proposed to look again at the 50% of accommodation that goes to the homeless housing list as this is having unintended consequences for those who have been on the other housing list for a very long time? I know that people who have been recommended from the homeless list who are not acceptable to the housing body because of their chaotic lifestyle and active addiction have held up the accommodation being offered to others. Can there not be more leeway in the allocation of housing between the two lists?

People will say they will not go into hostels because of the risky behaviour of the other residents. We have had previous conversations with Mr. Cathal Morgan on drug free accommodation. I have been in a number of hostels and have met the staff and have checked on what training they have undertaken. Can he outline the level of unacceptable behaviour in hostels which people refer to when they say it is not safe to go into hostels?

Mr. Dick Brady:

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan. I will start with the voids. Dublin City Council has a void rate of 0.79%, which is extremely low. In a normal operating environment, one would be looking at a range between 3% and 6%. Substantial sums of money have been invested in dealing with voids in the past year or two.

The Deputy referred to regeneration projects that are taking place in the inner city. Part of the regeneration project is a requirement to de-tenant the properties in order to prepare them for demolition before we build new units.

The committee will be aware that the communities we are talking about, the regeneration communities, have suffered greatly in recent years and have had to endure broken promises in regard to their accommodation and their general environment etc. What Dublin City Council is doing in terms of regeneration is honouring the promises we have made to those tenants and those communities. My view is that we should continue to honour our promises to those communities and to effect the regeneration as promised, admittedly several years later than promised. We must honour and keep our word to those communities.

Mr. Cathal Morgan:

For clarity, the allocations directive is a ministerial directive which states that 50% of all social housing is to be allocated not just to the homeless but also to other vulnerable categories of households for Dublin region only. There are different percentages for other parts where the issue is acute. For example, last year we achieved 1,059 tenancies; in other words 1,059 households moved out of homeless services. This was a record achievement for homeless and housing services in that year. A total of 87% of that 1,059 came from local authorities and approved housing bodies. That shows the housing authorities are literally pulling out the stops to see whether they can assist in the tumultuous challenge we face day to day in terms of households staying in homeless services. It is the view and the concern of the local authorities that while that directive certainly gave us the uplift that we needed because we are in a crisis, maybe we are at that tipping point where, perhaps, there is a concern that it is inducing. I stress that the households that come to the local authorities for assistance are all low-income households. We are not talking about millionaires coming in the door who can provide for themselves but very vulnerable households who need help. There is a balance to be struck. We are of the view that, perhaps, we are at a tipping point given the constraints in terms of the availability of property and that we may have to tell people we cannot respond to them immediately and that they will have to consider other alternatives while we wait for housing supply to kick in. That concern has been raised. We know that the Housing Agency is carrying out a review of the directive. All the stakeholders will be asked what they think of the directive and it will be up to the Government or the Minister or the Department to decide where to go from there. That is the view of the local authorities.

In regard to the concern around drug-free beds within the region and the issue of vulnerable persons who have very complex addiction needs, that is always an issue for us. I will say two things about that. Last year in Dublin alone, the local authorities and the homeless services provided accommodation to 5,480 adults. That number does not include children. That is a phenomenal number of people. Some 38% of that cohort had never been in homeless services previously. For example, on 31 December, like a census of population night, 2,279 adults, not including children, were in homeless services. We have increased our emergency capacity by about 70% since 2014. That shows two things: we are at full occupancy and at full capacity. That is going to cause constraints around our ability to be able to match the right bed in the right service with the person to meet their needs. We do our best to do that. I hope the committee appreciates that we try to work on that day to day. We have in the region of upwards of 300 beds that we see as being drug and alcohol free.

The staff in homeless services who work under extreme conditions perform a most diligent and professional job to the very best of their ability. That includes local authority placement staff who are under extraordinary stress day to day. That is understandable because they are dealing with and working with very vulnerable households. Likewise our colleagues in State-funded NGO services are in the same position.

With regard to the qualification and the standards required to work in the sector, we have a competency based framework under our HR framework, where staff do have to have a basic level of commendation. Most staff are trained in the area. With Dublin City University's School of Mental Health Nursing and the Centre for Housing Research we set up a unique training programme which is the first of its kind. It has been in place for the past two to three years and the majority of our staff, as key workers, have to go through a training programme to be able to work with difficult circumstances. It is a condition of service level agreements that where one has anti-social behaviour it is the responsibility of the services to deal with the anti-social behaviour and to have good neighbourhood policies in place. If the behaviour is affecting the neighbourhood we can do two things; either the person is transferred to an alternative facility to try to deal with the immediate issue or there is some level of sanction involved. However, our sanctions can only go so far because fundamentally the situations usually involve people who are quite vulnerable because they are in a treatment programme and they may be experiencing a level of chaos on a particular day. This is something we try to work with and ameliorate on a day to day basis.

Mr. Dick Brady:

A question was raised on the difference in cost between the units. In 2014 we suggested the possibility of using modular or rapid build housing. There was outcry across the country. Everybody assumed that we meant school prefabs that we all remember as being disastrous places in which we spent some, if not all, of our youth. In order to dispel some of those views we set up - with the industry - a demonstration project to contribute to the debate on the use of modular rapid build housing. Six companies from the industry, to which I am very grateful, came forward and said they would take part in the demonstration. We set aside a site and set up the demonstration project to allow the public and politicians to have a look at what might be possible with modular rapid build housing and to dispel some of the rumour or fears regarding the view of "old school prefab". The Government had a look at that, and in fairness to the Minister, the Taoiseach and other politicians who came to see the site, they said they would move forward with the idea, with a couple of additional stipulations. One of those stipulations was that the lifespan of a building had to be 60 years. The second stipulation on the advice note was that the units must comply with all building standards. Another requirement was that we could not use the name "modular" because there were other building technologies that could be brought to bear on the situation which might be just as good as a modular build. With these in mind the tenders went out and we are now where we are.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the County and City Management Association and their colleagues who are attending today. Their presentation was very informative. I have a few questions. With regard to the 2,542 houses still vacant, are these in the Dublin area and how long will it be before they can be put back into use? What would the cost be and do the councils have the money to do this?

Mr. Dick Brady:

Those figures do not relate to local authority houses.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

There are quite a number of unfinished housing estates around the country and in areas where, unfortunately, there is no need. It is very sad to see some of these houses empty and in a derelict state.

However, there is no demonstrated need for them. Having said that, in the case of all local authorities, extra moneys have been made available to try to bring them back into use in order that they will be available at some stage when the need is generated. It is still a significant issue to be addressed by all. Again, this is something we had to pick up. We did not build these houses, but we will finish them off.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I wish to pay tribute to the city council and the work it has done on the regeneration of St. Michael's estate, Fatima Mansions, St. Teresa's Gardens, Dolphin House and elsewhere in my area, in view of the amount of people the council has had to rehouse. People's homes were being taken away, so they were priority cases - I understand that very well. I compliment the council on its work. Great work has been done in moving people around in all of these complexes and it is continuing in Dolphin House.

Reference was made to the public private partnership for 500 homes. I do not mind whether we call them quick-fix houses or timber houses - it does not really matter. Are they all social housing units?

Mr. Dick Brady:

My understanding is that the 500 units are contained in the social housing strategy and the PPP has been set up to deliver them. To my understanding, all 500 will be social houses. They need not necessarily be rapid-build; they could be traditional build. A process is starting or has already started for the procurement of those units.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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My next question is for Mr. Morgan and relates to the figure of 5,811 homeless people. How many of these are family units? Mr. Morgan referred to a certain number of adults and children, although I do not remember the exact figures. Mr. Morgan said there were 5,811 homeless and 1,800 of these were children. How many of them are family units?

Mr. Cathal Morgan:

I will clarify that. The figures I gave were the end-of-year totals for placements in 2015. The local authorities placed 5,480 individuals. Obviously there are family cohorts within that, but that is the total number of individuals who occupied an emergency bed throughout the year.

I will take it one step further. Committee members should keep in mind that many households come into homeless services and, for different reasons, move on either into tenancies, back home or into treatment. It is dynamic and there is considerable churn within homeless services. Let us consider the figures for one night, 31 December 2015. We had 2,279 adults in homeless services. Within that figure there are adults and their child dependants. At the moment we have 790 families in emergency accommodation. In total, the adults have 1,616 child dependants. The kind of accommodation we provide in order to avoid the need to sleep rough includes commercial hotel settings - we do not want to be doing this but we do not want families to be on the streets either. I am sorry about all the statistics - they are available on homelessdublin.iefor anyone who wants to see them. Anyway, of the 790 families, 581 are in commercial hotel settings. By the way, they are getting support from homeless action teams with a view to helping them to move on. The remaining 209 families are in what we call supported lodgings. In other words, they are in supported temporary accommodation where we have staff on-site. That is how the figures break down.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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My next question relates to something Mr. Coman said. One thing the city council did very well in the past was to build really nice senior citizen complexes. Are there plans in the councils to start building more senior citizen complexes? There are many people living in houses that basically do not suit their needs anymore. These people would be willing to move into smaller accommodation, especially if it was well built, under some kind of financial contribution arrangement. I could name many complexes but there is no need. I believe that is the way to go.

It would release family homes into the market.

How much approximately do the 5,221 people in arrears owe? Is it thousands or millions of euro? How much is Mr. Morgan spending on homelessness at present? How much does it cost to put the voids back into use? That is a big issue for many.

The accommodation for people who have been on the housing list for 12 or 13 years does not suit the size of their families because the latter are older now. What chance do they have of being housed? They seem to be going further down rather than further up the list as a result of all the other people coming onto it.

Mr. Billy Coman:

I shall speak for South Dublin County Council. We are preparing a big proposal for the Department. That emanates from shock at the number of people living alone in large units when there is a family need. We are working on that brief. This is nothing new. As the Deputy says, there are good examples of projects already. Age Friendly Ireland has worked with Louth County Council on the sustainable living integrating older adults with technological regeneration, SLIOTAR, programme and the Great Northern Haven housing project. These are good examples that can be copied.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I do not have the exact figure for the arrears but I can get it. It is a significant sum of money. We are very conscious of both it and the potential issues coming down the line.

Mr. Cathal Morgan:

At the end of 2015 we had spent just over €70 million on homeless and housing support services. Just over €48 million of that came from the central Exchequer under the section 10 funding that comes to the Dublin local authorities. The balance is made up by the contribution from the local authorities. That expenditure relates only to the local authorities. The Health Service Executive, HSE, spends in the region of €15 million on the care side. Often people assume that is all spent on emergency accommodation and well over 40% is spent on hotels, supported accommodation and private emergency accommodation settings. However, what we spend in other areas is often missed. We spent €4.5 million on tenancy sustainment and resettlement services. We have long-term supported accommodation in the region that is made available to households who are deemed and assessed as not being able to live independent lives, even with visiting supports. In other words, staff are there on a 24-hour basis working with the tenants to assist them in their day-to-day lives. We spent just over €6 million last year on long-term supported accommodation. We spent €4.3 million on day services providing food, information and advice, ranging from Threshold to Brother Kevin's day centre, Merchant's Quay and Focus Ireland. There are different categories of service that local authorities fund in order to do different things, from prevention through to emergency responses, to assisting households back into tenancies with support.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I wish to make the important point that not everyone on the housing list, especially in the rural counties, wants social housing. People are on the housing list for many reasons. A significant number of individuals on the list are perfectly happy to be and remain in private rented accommodation.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I welcome the delegation and thank them for coming in. Mr. Cummins says social and private housing clients are competing for the same limited supply.

Does he agree that this is directly linked to the fact that we have been using private housing to satisfy the demand for social housing through the rent supplement scheme?

Mr. Cummins said we need to make every aspect of housing provision more affordable, and referred immediately to the cost of land. Does the local authority have powers to engage in compulsory purchase? He might fill us in on that. He also said that the financial services market has an obligation to be part of the solution and make credit available. I do not think the State is very good at telling the private banks what to do and it is probably not going to start now. Does Mr. Cummins not think that the State should be borrowing money itself, in order to find the money to do this?

Mr. Cummins said that we need to create an environment in which quality developers and builders have the opportunity to share their experience and skills in building sustainable and quality homes for our citizens. I am wondering how we can assess what a quality builder is. I wonder as well if Mr. Cummins is actually over-concentrated on the big developer and on going for the big bang effect. There are an awful lot of small city and country sites and I cannot help feeling that they are not being targeted nearly as much. There are plenty of very small builders in the country who are well able to build.

Mr. Cummins talked about the new tenant purchase scheme as if it were something very positive. There was some recent research in Britain which showed that over the last 30 years the scheme has not really worked at all. Firstly, 40% of the units sold through the scheme were not replaced, so stock was reduced, and secondly 40% of them ended up in the hands of landlords who were renting them back to tenants again. The State was actually supplementing the rent, so they were back to stage one.

Mr. Cummins has argued that unless the private sector returns to building properties immediately the problem, including homelessness, is going to get worse. Of course it would help things if they returned to the market, but does Mr. Cummins not agree that the State sector has actually been waiting for the last six or seven years, or more, for the private sector to get involved? The philosophy seems to have been that the markets will sort it out. Sadly the markets have not sorted it out and we need the State to get back in to building and providing houses.

The witnesses might be able to tell me how much social housing has been delivered in the Docklands area since 2008. There is a lot of high-end commercial property being built down there. Does the local authority have the wherewithal to insist on residential rather than commercial development in order to help alleviate our housing crisis in areas like this?

Could Mr. Cummins fill me in on why the regeneration of O'Devaney Gardens has not progressed? What is the plan and what do the witnesses expect to happen in the near future? It was mentioned that they feel local authorities should not be building 100% social housing on any site. I agree completely because it creates ghettoisation and the social problems that go with that. Are there any plans to put 100% social housing on any site in Dublin city in the near future?

We were talking earlier about procurement challenges. I am fairly well aware of how long it takes to make all this happen. I did a bit of building in my time and I know plenty of the challenges involved. Do the witnesses think the local authorities are understaffed?

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy Wallace. Just before the witnesses answer, a number of specific questions were asked. If the information is not readily available, could the witnesses forward it on to the committee for Deputy Wallace?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Of course. I will deal with some of the questions and will then invite my colleagues in to deal with the rest, in so far as we can and based on information we have. In respect of the private rental sector, the economy, as we all know, has improved significantly and a lot of emigrants are returning to the country, thankfully.

They are competing for rental properties. People who, in the past, were in a position to be able to save for and buy properties are, as a result of affordability and income issues, not in a position to do so and are also competing for properties that heretofore were used for social housing. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that many people, including immigrants who have returned and people who cannot afford to buy properties, are all looking for the limited number of properties available. In some cases, both partners are working but such couples are forced to rent because of the issues around affordability.

On State borrowing and why the Government would not return to borrowing, it is important to have approved housing bodies because they can borrow money. Government borrowing for housing is regarded as on-balance sheet borrowing and is subject to the restrictions to which Mr. Brady referred.

I entirely agree with Deputy Wallace on quality builders. Everything is not done by large developers. We are all aware of smaller builders, and they perhaps build the best properties. What I mean by quality builders are those who adhere to planning permission, build according to the building regulations, have the correct certification and supervision and sign off on projects. My colleagues will address the issue.

On the question of whether to have 100%, 10% or 15% build-out, it depends on the site and its context. A small infill site in Dublin city, for example, could be built out by 100% because of the broader context and mix of properties in the general area, whereas a similar site in a town where there is a need for housing would not be so built out because there would not be a mix of tenure in the broader area and that might lead to the problems to which Deputy Wallace referred.

Mr. Dick Brady:

Deputy Wallace referred to scale, in terms of the tenure mix and so forth. If one was building 700 houses, one might have an issue in regard to the mix of tenure, but if one were building or acquiring smaller numbers that might not be the case. We need to carry out some research.

It is assumed - an assumption I do not share - that all social tenants have certain characteristics which means they tend towards antisocial activity and the bad parts of ghettoisation. I have been involved in housing for a long time. From my experience, the vast majority of families and individuals who come to us for services are decent people who are trying to get from A to Z in the same manner as every other family.

In terms of ensuring we have the best quality estates possible, we need to consider other elements besides building houses. We need to consider whether the services families need are in place when they are housed. In other words, there needs to be a health system, schools and shops in place. Some of our greatest failures been a result of building large numbers of houses on the sides of hills in the suburbs of Dublin without putting in place the necessary social and other infrastructure to support family life. The question of ghettoisation is bigger than numbers and needs to be examined in that way.

I refer to O'Devaney Gardens. I mentioned that we looked at three possible sites in terms of bringing forward innovative ideas.

These sites will have both social and purchased units and hopefully we will get to the stage where we can carry out the necessary work in respect of affordable renting because I believe a sector of the population is suffering as a result of the fact that the people in question do not have choices in that area. We will bring forward the proposals in this regard to our council within the next month or so. They are being worked on at present. The Deputy asked specific questions on the docklands but I do not have the numbers to hand.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Brady can forward those figures to the secretariat and they will be passed on directly.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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My final question was on understaffing.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

We came from a position where we stopped building some years ago. We were leasing properties and buying the properties that were built for us. All of the housing units across the country shrunk in terms of the number of people in them. Last year, all local authorities that sought additional staff members were allowed to have them and I believe that we have sufficient resources at present. However, as we gear up to meet the demand of the private sector, to plan with it, to co-ordinate and to help it and other stakeholders, we probably will need additional resources. That said, I am satisfied at this point that the issue of resources is not an inhibitor to the delivery of housing units and social housing units.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Cummins and call Deputy Funchion.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I remind the witnesses of two of my questions that were not answered; I am not inventing new ones. One was about compulsory purchase and whether local authorities have that power and the other was about the docklands. Foreign investment funds obviously have bought a lot of land there on which they are eager to put high-end offices, as is the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. Do local authorities have the right or the wherewithal to insist on more residential units if they come seeking high-end offices?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

On the question of lands, we have sufficient lands at present to build out. Consequently, the availability of land is not an immediate problem. As for using our compulsory purchase order, CPO, powers, we do not need to exercise them at present.

On the docklands issue-----

Mr. Dick Brady:

As the docklands area has been defined as a strategic development zone, SDZ, it has a full planning scheme for its development. It will be developed in accordance with the planning scheme and with the planning provisions. If proposals come in that are in accordance with the planning scheme, I assume they will get permission. I assume that will be the position with regard to the docklands.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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To clarify, is Mr. Cummins stating there is enough land in all the local authorities for housing or was he referring to the docklands alone? He stated, "we have sufficient lands at present to build out."

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I was not referring to the docklands. That was general.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Because this is blatantly not the case in, for example, Fingal.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We can come back to Deputy Coppinger in a moment.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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It is just a very important statement.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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While we can come back to the Deputy, to be fair I wish to afford the other members who have offered to make contributions an opportunity to so do.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Yes, I know. It is just-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Funchion is next, followed by Deputies Butler and Ryan.

Photo of Kathleen FunchionKathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. At the outset, I must disagree completely with the statement that some people are content to stay on the list and to be in receipt of rent supplement. I represent a constituency that is both rural and urban in nature, comprising the two counties of Carlow and Kilkenny. In the seven years during which I have been a councillor, I have never met a single person who wished to remain on the list and was content to be in receipt of rent supplement. While many of my questions have been addressed, the point has been made that there are sufficient resources. I have a question about delays and do not refer simply to building social housing. While land is available in some areas, I also refer to a huge delay in buying social housing. It sometimes is taking six, seven or eight months when local authorities buy houses for people. What is the delay in this regard? I would have thought it was a staff resource issue because with the embargoes in recent years, staff have been stretched.

If the witness is saying that there are sufficient resources, however, then how does it take a local authority six to eight months to purchase a house? It may not be a house that needs work to be done on it because it is in perfect condition, so what is causing that delay?

I wonder what the witness sees as the obstacles to the mortgage-to-rent scheme. Many people would be perfect applicants for that scheme, yet they do not seem to qualify. The problem comes back to housing. It could be a standard three-bedroom house with a couple living there whose family have moved out. They are being told that they are over-accommodated so they do not qualify for the mortgage-to-rent scheme. Common sense is required for such matters.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt but some mobile phones are ringing again.

Photo of Kathleen FunchionKathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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People in the system are going to court and their eviction cases are repeatedly adjourned, so they have that stress and worry. They could be perfect applicants for the mortgage-to-rent scheme, yet they might not qualify because of something silly like having an extra bedroom. The reality is different, however, because families can return home with grandchildren. We need to start thinking outside the box.

That brings me to the other point concerning voids. I am not talking about cases where major work must be done, but where minor works are due to be done. People might have the ability to do such work themselves with family and friends, so they can take the house as it is. Why can something like that not be examined? I am not referring to big works that would saddle someone with a large debt. If it will take a local authority a long time to turn over a house, the person involved should be allowed to do it. We could then come up with some agreement whereby they would have the first one or two months rent free. We should think of things like that which may not fit into any particular category or box, but they are common sense matters. People often say they will take the house and their family or friends can help them bring it up to a certain standard. Much of the time only minor works are required. We need to consider things like that, so I would like to hear the witnesses' opinions on them. How can we cut out some of the red tape involved, particularly given the way things are at the moment, in order to try to speed up the whole system?

Mr. Dick Brady:

I will deal with the first issue concerning the length of time it takes to purchase a house. Anybody who has been engaged in purchasing a house will know that the conveyancing process can be long and tortuous. Many delays in the acquisition or purchase of housing units are down to the conveyancing position and the hurdles one must surmount in order to exchange contracts and get clear title. A good deal of the delay therefore is down to the conveyancing process. Anyone who has bought a house will know that it can be a difficult and trying time.

The small works idea has been and is being used, for example, as regards interior painting of social housing. The city council scheme allows a tenant to take the house and paint the interior to their own liking. Generally speaking, we have found that when somebody walks into a social house they have been allocated, one of the first things they do is get a paintbrush and paint the interior to their own liking. There is a scheme within the city council that allows such work.

There are other issues concerning other works within a house. Given the mad world we live in, many things end up actionable. If something happens later on, one may end up with difficulties. However, there are works that can and should be done.

Interestingly, some people do not want to avail of an allowance to paint their houses. It is available and we could do other common-sense things, as the Deputy said.

Mr. Billy Coman:

No local authority sets out to make anybody homeless. That does not make sense. It is about keeping people in their homes.

The Deputy referred to the mortgage-to-rent issue. There are two schemes. There is the general mortgage-to-rent scheme, through which we deal with financial institutions. It can be difficult to engage with many of them. It is a difficult process and there are options to simplify and streamline it but, equally, work could be done on the mortgage-to-rent scheme for local authority loans. In our experience, the local authority scheme is voluntary and people often do not take that option because it effectively means giving up home ownership to rent instead. Work can be done on these processes to simplify them.

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the CCMA members for attending, as the meeting has been informative. Much of our time has been given over to discussing issues in Dublin, with which I have no problem because that is where the need is greatest. Have our guests considered moving families with the greatest need in Dublin to more rural areas where there is less demand for housing? I represent Waterford city and county and, therefore, I am conscious of the urban-rural divide. Is it is a rule of thumb that each local authority can make up its mind on purchasing private houses? I refer to council estates that might have been built 20 or 30 years ago. Residents may have purchased their homes over time but they are now up for sale. These are usually three-bed semi-detached houses or bungalows that are on sale for €95,000 or €100,000. It would be much cheaper to buy them rather than try to turn over a sod. The Waterford local authorities are only inclined to buy them if people present with health issues. They are not bought to increase housing stock.

In the case of single mothers with three or four children in a two-bedroom house, would there be merit in extending the property rather than waiting for, say, two years until a three-bedroom house becomes available for them? Extensions are only built for people experiencing medical issues but they are not done to enable people to remain in their homes. For example, they could have been living in a nice house in a nice area for ten years but their family circumstances have changed and they need an additional room or bathroom. Is there merit in considering extension and refurbishment as a solution? I am trying to propose solutions that offer a quicker fix than building housing estates. I acknowledge this proposal may only help six or seven families in an area but that could make a big difference.

HAP has worked well but there is a problem in the south. The rent supplement rate in Waterford is €525 a month while it is €590 in Kilkenny or when one travels over the border to Cork, it is €750. It is difficult for people to rent houses in Waterford for €525. The average rent is €650. This results in people on low incomes trying to pay the additional €125 or €150 out of their pockets. Landlords are in a win-win situation because their money is secure but it is difficult to get them to sign up for rent supplement because many of the tenancies are not above board.

Mr. Billy Coman:

I will deal with the HAP first. It is different. In some areas where it is difficult to get at the rent caps, allowances have been made to local authorities to get a percentage above the cap to facilitate people on a case-by-case basis. I am certainly not here to speak for the Department but I know it is evaluating right across the country. I am sure Waterford will be part of that review. The review will see what assistance is needed there and what is applicable in Dublin and some other areas.

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It is different.

Mr. Billy Coman:

That may be of value as well. It is something that is being looked at.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

The point we are making here today is that there is an availability issue and Waterford has a particular problem. The point was made about a three-bed house being available and being cheaper, perhaps €90,000 or less. There are two issues - there should be a need and it should not upset the mix of tenure. We have to be very careful there. There is a mechanism and the Department is quite willing to support us in it if there are properties that are good value, if there is a need, and if the mix of tenure is correct.

On the very valid point made about building on, there is an anomaly there and we are working on it. It happens if there is a medical issue. We are aware of that and we are looking into it at the moment.

Photo of Brendan  RyanBrendan Ryan (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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On the new streamlined process referred to in terms of delivering social housing units of under 15 units or €2 million, can Mr. Cummins expand on that and tell us what that will deliver and what its potential is? What is the lead time on the public-private situation delivering 500 houses? Are there any more in the pipeline? In terms of the homeless units putting people in hotels and guest houses, is there any flexibility for people in that situation to find solutions for themselves? If somebody became homeless in Rush, for example, and there is a proposal to put them in a hotel up at the airport, it would be more satisfactory for those people if they could find something local.

Mr. Cummins outlined the legislative policy development in his paper which is a context for much of what he had to say. In terms of delivery of units, is there any legislative barrier that prevents him from delivering? Is there anything he would do tomorrow by way of legislation which would help him to do his job better? Mr. Brady would know Fingal of old. There used to be a scheme in place there where the local authority would provide sites to people and young couples who were anxious to build their own houses and could do so if they got a reasonable site. Is there any legislation required for that to be done or could it be rolled out?

Mr. Cummins commented on the Threshold community welfare officer and the flexibility around that in terms of increasing rent supplement or HAP to reflect market conditions. It is my experience in Fingal that it is working very much on a case-by-case basis. Many people and bodies I talk to on housing say that, generally, it is not working across Dublin. What is Mr. Cummins's sense of that? If it is working in some parts of Fingal, why is it not working elsewhere? I am not referring to areas where there might be a receiver, but in a normal situation? Given that it might be working on a case-by-case basis, is there justification for increasing the rent caps across the board?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

It is a question that we deal with on a continual basis. One of the points I made in the presentation was that caution is needed in helping owners with mortgage repayments or renters with rent. As it is such a tight supply and demand market at the moment, if we interfere in the market we will make it worse and we will drive rents up across the country and actually make it worse.

I would not be in favour of a broad increase for that reason because it would make it worse for a broader reach of people. Again, the landlords would be the winners and the potential tenants would be the losers. There is a targeted approach and it has success. Mr. Morgan might come in on that later on. It is specifically targeted where people are in danger of becoming homeless. That was the primary reason it was introduced and it has worked very successfully.

In terms of legislation and interventions that might be made, there is one problem we have as local authorities. I say this with all due respect to all the tenants who work, as we do, to the legislation that is there. It is very frustrating for us, as local authorities and housing authorities, that when we make a house available to someone, they say they do not want it there because it is not where they wanted. On the issue of choice, one would imagine that people in their need to have a house and a home would take a house and a home anywhere within reason and certainly within the county. That is a major issue in terms of refusal after refusal. One of the reasons it can take so long to let a property is that having gone through the process, the prospective tenant does not want it and we have go through it all again. The constant refusal is a major problem for us. As some of the members here today have said, if a house was not available in Dublin, why would someone not come down to Roscommon? Something might be done in terms of limiting the choices to the county. When I worked in Galway, people had a multiplicity of choices, which did not help things.

I ask Mr. Morgan to come back in regarding the-----

Mr. Dick Brady:

I might comment before Mr. Morgan comes in. The Deputy asked in essence about small builders and serviced sites. That has worked extremely well in the past in providing accommodation for a certain cohort of the population. They have never delivered major numbers, but they delivered fairly significant projects, one of which is in Donabate, as I am sure the Deputy is aware. They delivered significant projects for particular areas.

I do not believe there is any great barrier to us moving in those directions again. Maybe some buildings by small builders, serviced sites or local co-operative developments might be facilitated in some of the other plans we have for housing. It has worked well in the past and has been extremely beneficial for certain communities.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I seek clarification on how long the committee will continue.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We shall continue until 6 o'clock.

Mr. Cathal Morgan:

The tenancy protection service started in June 2014. That is an initiative whereby Threshold works with us and the Department of Social Protection to assist vulnerable tenants in receipt of rent supplement who may lose their tenancies as a result of income inadequacy. Since June 2014, it has had 7,500 direct contacts from tenants in the private rental sector. Out of those 7,500 Threshold - not us - has deemed that approximately 3,700 were at immediate risk of losing their tenancies. Within that number since this scheme began, 1,600 have had the uplifts. It is important and this is why I am raising this. Only 22 households out of the 7,500 came into homeless services.

As Threshold would probably confirm, we think that we probably need to do more awareness raising because it can be too late by the time the tenants reach us. Quite often there is a receivership problem. Often there is a legal reason that allows the tenancy to be relinquished, unfortunately. There is nothing that can be done and we have to move in with an emergency intervention.

The Department of Social Protection would have to answer for itself regarding the operation of the scheme generally. However, within our own structures it has emphasised that it carries out regular mailshots to make contact with those in receipt of rent supplement.

This is to try to make people aware that, if they are in trouble, they should come to us at the earliest opportunity.

The Deputy asked about flexibility around accessing hotel accommodation, where it is assessed by the local authority that there is no other alternative. While that flexibility exists, I would make the following point. Literally every day we have scenarios where we might contact a hotel and it says it does not want to do business with us because it is full, yet a household might make contact themselves and get through, and vice versa. The committee should keep in mind that we have 790 families in emergency situations, of which 580 are in commercial hotel settings. We are not hiding behind the door here. We make the point all the time that this is not sustainable, which is why we have to look at fast-track building to get away from that. This is just not sustainable for families and there will be a reckoning down the line in terms of the impact on children and families. In particular, we know that children are massively discommoded. We try to work on a case-by-case basis when this is brought to our attention, but the sheer scale and volume of what is coming at us make it extremely difficult. I am not making excuses. Of course mistakes are made and we will admit them when they are made, and if we can resolve the issue, we will try resolve it. However, to answer the question directly, if it is brought to our attention that there is a situation where it is said, "This is too far for us, we need to make a change", we will do as much as we can to try to facilitate the family.

Mr. Dick Brady:

We operate the system based on a credit card system but it is an extremely difficult thing to do within the rules. If it is a case of a family getting housed or keeping within the rules, the family gets housed.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask everyone to bear with me for a moment as I want to clarify the figures that were given today. At the start of the meeting, Mr. Brady stated that planning permission was granted for 22,000 housing units in the greater Dublin area. Is that correct?

Mr. Dick Brady:

It is 22,611, to be exact.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Are they all private or public, or a mix of both?

Mr. Dick Brady:

They are all units for which planning permission has been granted but not commenced, so they are private.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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They are all private. Does Mr. Brady know the number of units where local authorities have gone through the planning process for their own developments?

Mr. Dick Brady:

No.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Will he supply that to the committee?

Mr. Dick Brady:

Yes.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Brady mentioned that the targets set out by the Government were 75,000 units of accommodation to be delivered across the various schemes by 2020. Is that correct?

Mr. Dick Brady:

That is contained within the Government social housing strategy, which talks about 35,000 units to be delivered by the approved housing bodies, AHBs, and the local authorities, and 75,000 units to be delivered using revenue leasing-type models.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Those 75,000 units are from the private sector and others under the housing assistance payment, HAP.

Mr. Dick Brady:

It is set out clearly.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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There are 35,000 to be constructed.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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No, they are not to be constructed.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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They are to be acquired.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The 75,000 is under HAP. The 35,000 is everything else, including the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and long-term leasing.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the delegation to explain this again because we need clarity.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

The 35,000 figure is additional social housing units by way of acquisition, leasing, renting or RAS. It is an additional 35,000 units added to the stock of social housing between AHBs and ourselves.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Do any of those involve construction?

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Yes.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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How many?

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is about 14,000.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

All of this is contained in the social housing strategy.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not disputing any of this.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

We will get the Chairman the exact figures.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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If this is taken with the previous question I asked, which concerned the Part VIII schemes that have been completed, then we as a committee can try to understand the timeline in this respect.

Deputy Ó Broin spent some time earlier setting out the process of delivery. We are considering where the Part VIII plannings are at with regard to the programme the association is trying to deliver. We need to marry those pieces together. Mr. Cummins knows where I am coming from on that.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

I do. I know exactly.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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It is to marry those elements to get the complete picture.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

We will get more information on that for the Chairman and send it to the committee.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We have concluded on time but if any member wants to ask for additional information that can be forwarded to the committee, I will afford them the opportunity to do that now. I ask them to confine their remarks to specific questions or a request for additional information rather than statements, as we will conclude shortly.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I am probably going back over my initial questions in asking whether Mr. Cummins knows the number of voids there are nationally and in each county? Is that information available and, if it is, can it be sent to the committee? Has a cost been put on the refurbishment of them?

The only other comment I would make is that we went through the procurement and approval processes for any type of building project and I fail to understand why the association is happy enough that the threshold is only €2 million which would deliver 15 units but the delivery of 30 units would involve a process of four approvals from the Department on each occasion. My understanding is that the Department does not have the resources to deal with volume that is coming in and that is causing massive delays. We are wondering how long it takes to deliver units, but this adds about six months to that process at a minimum. Why is Mr. Cummins saying that the threshold of €2 million is adequate when it should definitely be €5 million? I would welcome a response to that question.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Cummins might respond to that question by way of correspondence.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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On the need for one-bedroom, two-bedroom or three-bedroom units, and I know Mr. Cummins has the figures, there is a problem regarding the availability of one-bedroom units. It would be helpful to know the demand in each of those categories and the way it is being matched up with the supply that is coming on stream.

Mr. Dick Brady:

Is the Deputy seeking the national figure?

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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No, the figure for Dublin. I am sorry but I am only interested in Dublin as it has the longest list.

Mr. Dick Brady:

Those figures are published every quarter and the last quarter was published within the past week or so.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Is there a problem with the availability of one-bedroom accommodation? Are we building enough one-bedroom units because providing accommodation for single men is the particular issue we need to address. Is there potential or scope for an organisation such as Habitat for Humanity which takes over buildings and has a system for people to buy properties? Is the association addressing the difficulty people face in being included in RAS?

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I asked Mr. Cummins this question and he may have answered it. Did the association consider moving people who are in most need from Dublin down the country? Did he answer that question?

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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He is not answering it now, unfortunately.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

Yes, I did.

Photo of John BrassilJohn Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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With respect to voids, and the point that was made that not everybody on the housing waiting list wants a social house, that figure is important. Is it possible to get it? I have asked the question and I am now answering it in my head and realise that it is not possible. When we talk about the housing need and demand, the figures are distorted and it is hard to work from them to progress to solutions. We need to put some thought into that. If we are trying to solve a problem and we have figures that are not accurate, we are going around in circles to some extent. We all need to put some thought into that one in order that we might come up with better solutions.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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My questions are whether the faster procurement process that was used for Poppintree can be used for Part 8 schemes once they are in place. It is not a question about planning but about procurement. Is there a limit on the amount for which a local authority can apply for a refurbishment of an individual building? If so, what is it and are there many units that would cost more to refurbish? On acquisitions, and a few members asked this question which was not answered, of the association's allocation for the next three years, is there a maximum amount of that allocation that it can use for acquisitions of turn-key properties? The second part of that question is whether compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, can be used.

South Dublin County Council and Dublin City Council have targets under the strategy. They are 3,347 units for Dublin City Council and 1,445 units for South Dublin County Council. Can Mr. Cummins tell us what percentage of those targets have been met after the first year of the strategy? I would like to know the one thing Mr. Cummins thinks could change in terms of policy, legislation and process that would make it easier for the local authorities to do the job of stopping people becoming homeless or to do the job of supplying more houses. Mr. Cummins could e-mail this information or, if he is not comfortable e-mailing it, he could phone people individually. If Mr. Cummins could answer that in whatever way he thinks appropriate, could he let us know because that is what we are looking for?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Could the association supply us with an audit of all local authority-owned land in each local authority taking in the acreage, zoning and location? It is critical that we have this information because the manager says that there is enough land to build houses when there is insufficient land in some locations.

Why have local authorities not developed a scheme for buying second-hand properties where residents are in situ? This will be very important for the vulture fund and distressed property situations. An article in the Irish Independentlast week that dealt with this stated that Dublin City Council apparently could have bought a block of apartments but because there were some-----

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Deputy stick with the questions?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Some tenants were living in it so Dublin City Council did not buy it. This could have been a great mixed tenure development involving the development of an affordable mortgage scheme alongside people renting instead of those people having to be evicted. This is critical for the likes of Tyrrelstown.

It is constantly brought up that local authorities turn down loads of NAMA properties. Could Mr. Cummins tell us why this is the case and what is unsuitable about them?

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the time the witnesses have given us. My first question is about the homeless. I do not know the name of the website referred to because I live in a different county. I am very interested in the social and family supports about which Mr. Cummins spoke, how local authorities work with families, which is a hugely positive engagement, and how they fund that.

Returning to my best practice question, I acknowledge the interpretation Mr. Cummins gave me but there must be cities in England that have tackled a huge housing crisis. What is best practice there? Again, it is one for people who know the trade because I do not. There must be new and existing initiatives. There was a housing conference in Brighton years ago. I do not know if anybody remembers it. I attended it once or twice and very good ideas were brought forward by city governments, particularly administration.

Can we visit these modular houses because I do not know where they are?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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We have all seen them.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I have not.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We will arrange that separately.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I live in County Louth and have not seen them but I would love to do so.

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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We can arrange that for individuals who have not seen them.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Leading on from my question about the homeless list and the 790 families, have the witnesses any idea how many family units they are talking about in respect of the housing list? I include single people in that. I am talking about the larger housing list for the country.

Mr. Dick Brady:

The national figure?

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, do the witnesses know how many family units are involved in that, including single people?

Photo of John CurranJohn Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank colleagues for the extensive range of questions this afternoon. I thank the members of the County and City Management Association who attended here this afternoon - Mr. Eugene Cummins, Mr. Dick Brady, Mr. Cathal Morgan and Mr. Billy Coman. Their contribution was very worthwhile and informative. We look forward to responses to the questions we asked. I assure them that it is not being taken in isolation.

I know it is difficult for the delegation sitting here today. However, other sectors and relevant agencies will be brought through it too. The committee is trying to compile a report based on the advice, information and answers from a whole range of sectors. The committee appreciates the delegation’s attendance and participation this afternoon.

Mr. Eugene Cummins:

On behalf of the four of us, I thank the Chairman and the members for the opportunity to present here today. We will give any assistance we can. We would be more than pleased to bring back more information and attend the committee again, if required to do so. We are all in it together. I thank the committee for its attention. This session was beneficial to us also.

The committee adjourned at 6.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28 April 2016.