Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Our witnesses are Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird, Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan and Ms Eabhnat Ní Fhloinn. Mar is gnách, I draw everyone's attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The Irish Mathematics Learning Support Network consists of people with an interest in the provision of mathematics and statistics support in tertiary level education in Ireland. The report by the network, Student Evaluation of Mathematics Learning Support: Insights From A Large Multi-Institutional Survey, was launched in November 2014. It contains valuable insights about the transition from second to third level mathematics for students across a range of disciplines and the impact of mathematical support services. Representing the network today are Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird, Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan and Ms Eabhnat Ní Fhloinn. I invite Mr. O'Sullivan to make a presentation regarding the report.

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

On behalf of the network, we want to give some brief insights of the key points from the report, which is 100 pages long. Mathematic learning support is the free mathematical support that is given to students in addition to their lectures, tutorials and assignments at third level. It is commonplace across the world at this stage and it is part of the response to what has been documented as the mathematics problem: students entering higher education without the mathematical background they require. The Irish Mathematics Learning Support Network is a community of practice of academics and others working in the area of mathematics learning support across institutions.

One of the major undertakings we set about, in 2011, was to conduct a survey across as many institutions across the island of Ireland as we could, in order to determine the response of students to mathematics learning support. Our questionnaire was taken in nine higher education institutes, four institutes of technology and five universities. The questionnaire was in three sections. Section A asked for the students’ background. Section B was for people who had availed of maths learning support to ascertain their levels of satisfaction and whether they felt it had been helpful. We were also interested in students who had not availed of maths learning support and wanted to find out why they had not engaged with it and what would encourage them to do so.

The profile of the respondents was very much what we expected. There was a balance between male and female and the mature student proportion was in line with that of the overall sector at the time. Respondents came from the fields of science, engineering, business, arts, education and computing. Approximately 34% of respondents had taken higher level mathematics and the balance had taken ordinary level mathematics for the leaving certificate. Some of the mature students did not have a leaving certificate, which they did not need to enter third level education above the age of 23. There was a slightly different mix between universities and institutes of technology, IOTs, with 43% of university students having done higher level mathematics compared with 12% in the IOT sector. This was what we expected.

The key finding of the questionnaire was that 36% of students were availing of maths learning support, 31% of students felt they did not need the help, and 33% had not engaged with maths learning support for other reasons. We were particularly interested in finding ways to encourage the latter group to engage. The key issue for first year students is to succeed and progress to second year. We discovered from the survey that 22% of students who had used maths learning support had considered dropping out because of issues with mathematics and 63% of those students felt that maths learning support had made a significant impact on them in terms of staying with their studies and continuing on. Another 3% of students who had not reported themselves as having considered dropping out said the reason they had not considered dropping out was the fact that the maths learning support was there. Around one in four students who had considered dropping out of higher education because of mathematics difficulties did not do so, and two thirds of those did not do so because of the help they had had from maths learning support.

Arising from our findings, we feel maths learning support should be embedded as a permanent fixture in higher education institutions across the country. The information that is so useful to students should be communicated to them upon entry into third level. The benefits and financial savings to the colleges should be highlighted, given that every student who decides not to drop out is a saving on an investment that has been made in the student in first year and beyond.

Typically, maths learning support services offer a drop-in centre where students can come with any question and get help at any stage. This was the most positively endorsed and most used service. Revision workshops and support tutorials are also run. There is also a group of ICT-enabled supports, which were the least used and the least positively endorsed. The key people in maths learning support are the tutors working in the maths learning centres, and we recommend they be given special training in how to deal with students who come in. The human interaction is a key factor. Arising from the report, we have been working on developing strategies around enhancing students' digital literacy skills to ensure they can make the most use of whatever digital support is there.

To a large extent, success in mathematics is contingent on confidence. Some 56% of students felt availing of maths learning support had had a major impact on their confidence. A similar percentage felt maths learning support had had a very positive impact on their mathematical performance. From the point of view of coping with the mathematical demands of their courses, two thirds of students indicated that maths learning support had been very helpful. It is very important this information be communicated to incoming first years so that they know that engaging with these extra supports can have a very positive impact on their learning in first year. From a practical point of view, it is very important that there be increased collaboration between lecturing staff and course providers and the people working in maths learning support to try, in a very practical way, to encourage students to avail of maths learning support by ensuring an element of continuous assessment is built in extremely early in the semester, within the first two to three weeks, to try to encourage students to immediately engage with supports.

Some 48% of students who did not engage with maths learning support stated that they did not need help. There were other practical issues in terms of times not suiting and not knowing where the support was, and these were ranked highly. Some 40% to 50% of students were giving reasons in those categories. Maths learning support units can react to this by adjusting their services. While many students, 29%, said they would go to support centres if they needed support, a significant number referred to better times and more information. Another issue that is very important from a practical point of view is that maths learning support centres can become very busy at certain times of the year and respondents felt that having more resources and better locations for maths learning support was very important. Over recent year, one or two maths learning support centres have been moved within the libraries of higher education institutions, as opposed to being in a separate room. This seems to increase footfall and engagement, which is very positive.

We drilled down into the relationship between prior mathematical achievement and availing of maths learning support and discovered that the stronger the mathematical background, the less likely students were to avail of support. Among students who had switched from higher level to ordinary level during their leaving certificate years, the longer they had stayed at higher level, the less likely they were to feel they needed maths learning support. This is very significant in light of the bonus points.

We wanted to focus on mature students, particularly in the IOT sector. There was a very definite, statistically significant link between adult learners over the age of 23 and engagement with maths learning support. Adult learners will use every option they have to be successful. This will have consequences.

If there will be more adult learners engaging with higher education, and the plan is to try to bring that statistic up, mathematics learning support centres must be adequately resourced to deal with that. From a practical point of view, the tutors within mathematics learning support centres must understand that there are very different motivations on the part of adult learners and traditional learners who may have come from school. Adult learners will want to know reasons why. They will want to know about depth and so those different motivations are very important in terms of giving them the kind of support they need.

The final key fact we noticed is that there was a link between gender and availing of mathematics learning support. A statistically higher proportion of females availed of mathematics learning support regardless of prior mathematical achievement or disciplines of study. There was a significant association between gender and the categories that emerged for the reasons given for use of mathematics learning support. There were differences there but, critically, we discovered that once they had engaged with mathematics learning support, male and female students did not report any difference in their experience or the academic impact of using mathematics learning support.

In respect of our current work for the network, we were fortunate to receive network funding from the National Forum for the Enhancement of Teaching and Learning in Higher Education. We are using that funding to build the strength of the network; conduct an audit of the provision of mathematics learning support across the island of Ireland because we operate across the 32 counties and in particular; and try to action some of the recommendations that came from the report, particularly in the area of tutor training. We have developed a tutor training package that can be used in all the institutes on the island in terms of making it easy to do high-quality mathematics learning support training for the tutors.

Mathematics learning support is now well established in Ireland but as things grow and develop, funding, including multi-annual and permanent funding, for mathematics learning support can be an issue. The access office is well established in the fabric and infrastructure of third-level education. Mathematics learning support needs to be on a similar kind of footing. Another issue that has a very practical impact is that the fact that funding for postgraduate students in mathematics has reduced. This has had the knock-on effect of lack of availability of suitable tutors in mathematics learning support centres. They are two issues that are beyond the control of people working in mathematics learning support but they may need some consideration.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his presentation. I think he said it exceeds 100 pages. Can he clarify one point? He is talking about second-level and third-level education. Is there any interaction with the primary level?

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

No, mathematics learning support is for students who are coming into third-level education. They will be adult learners. They are not necessarily all coming from secondary school. They are adult learners of all sorts coming from secondary school or coming from work. In terms of primary-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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You do not have any interaction with it or take any note of what it is doing?

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

No.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that Senator Ó Clochartaigh is under pressure to get back to the Seanad due to speaking commitments so I thank him for his continued patience and will let him in.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am deputising for Deputy Jonathan O'Brien who is Sinn Féin spokesperson on education. It is fascinating. Way back when I was trying to navigate through economics, statistics and mathematics at University College Galway, I would definitely have been banging your door down. Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned a few things that I found very interesting. He said that the ICT-enabled supports were not very used very much. I am surprised that this is the case when we are becoming so much more computer-literate and people are doing things at their own speed at their own time. What are the barriers to people using those resources?

I am not sure if Mr. O'Sullivan feels it is within his competence to talk about Project Maths. We have heard a lot about Project Maths and about improving the mathematical skills of second level going into third level. Has Mr. O'Sullivan seen anything within that and is it a step forward or a step backwards? Do we need to rethink that type of methodology?

What would Mr. O'Sullivan ask for? How many tutors do we have across third-level colleges? If he had the cheque book in the morning, how many more tutors would he look for or what other resources would he ask for in a reasonable manner that could be put to a Minister for Education and Skills in a practical sense? You are great people for quantifying things so I would imagine that you would be able to put a figure on it.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I was going to group all the questions together but as Senator Ó Clochartaigh is under pressure to go, I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to answer his questions first.

Dr. Eabhnat Ní Fhloinn:

I might take the first question about ICT. We have seen that when students are nervous about mathematics, they really want to talk to a person. We found that no matter what kind of ICT resources we put in, part-time students engage a lot with ICT resources because they are usually trying to hold down a job and study in the evening and they do not have time to come into the university apart from that so they do use ICT resources. The universities or institutes of technology that have more part-time evening courses will definitely see more ICT usage but we found that apart from that, students, by and large, want to come in and sit down with a person.

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

The first cohort of students who will have completed Project Maths all the way through second level is not there. Some of the pilot schools might be there in 2017 but it will be 2018 before we see the first cohort of students so it is way too early to make any kind of comments on that and the impact it has had.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

I can add one point to that. Speaking from the perspective of NUI Maynooth, the only impact we can talk about is that we have had to change some of the modules we are teaching first-year students in statistics because we have had to up the level. We now putting elements of second-year courses into the first-year courses because we found that students now know the stuff we were teaching in first year. That is just one small factor relating to statistics, which is approximately one third or one quarter of first-year mathematics. That is only a small snapshot and I agree with Mr. O'Sullivan that we must wait.

In respect of the question about how many tutors we would like, you are going to give someone from Monaghan a cheque. It is very hard to give a definitive answer because the needs of each institution are different. There are 22 tutors working in the mathematics support centre in NUI Maynooth, but this ranges. Some people have one or two hours. Some are postgraduates while some are undergraduates because we have an issue with sourcing good tutors, so we have to spread it out. It is a difficult one to answer but we provide something like 127 tutor hours per week. It is different in the different institutions. I can certainly do another survey and ask around North and South and we can get people to come back and say what a definite figure would be but I could not give the committee a-----

Dr. Eabhnat Ní Fhloinn:

I think multi-annual funding is probably the main aspect because once one knows one has something in place for three or five years and can bring in this kind of thing, a lot of places would extend what they are doing. This is what we are seeing. Students are saying that opening hours are not long enough and there are not enough tutors when they are there so if we had more money, the centres would be open for longer and more students would come.

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

That is one of the reasons we are undertaking that audit of mathematics learning support across the island. The last audit we conducted was 2007 or 2008. I think it was 2008. We want an up-to-date audit of exactly what is happening. Hopefully, we can answer that before Christmas.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

What is a difficult argument for us to make is that this is not a cost. Each institution would have an amount of money that they are losing per student who drops out and that is for each year of their degree. If you save one student, that is a certain amount for that year. We cannot say that we are the reason but evidence points out that quite often, we make a difference. If this is multiplied by three, four or five for the five years, it more than pays for itself. While money is going out, not as much is being lost as otherwise would have been the case.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. Dr. Mac an Bhaird said that there are 22 tutors working in NUI Maynooth.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

That is correct - in my support centre at the moment.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Are they doing this on a part-time basis?

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

Yes. It depends on what they are doing.

Some of them are postgraduates and there are stipulations for them. If they have funding, they might only be allowed to do one or two hours. The might do an hour for me or give a tutorial in the department. It varies, it is not 22 every year.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It fluctuates.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

Exactly.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives from the network for their presentation. One observation occurred to me as I listened and it is something I do not get. Senator Ó Clochartaigh referred to it earlier. On one hand, people maintain that the ICT enhanced supports in place are not effective. Essentially, they are saying they do not work for individuals. On the other hand, they maintain access times are somehow not appropriate to their lives in terms of being able to access the supports when they want. It seems these two issues could be examined in tandem in the interests of addressing a challenge. If we had some sort of ICT support structure that could satisfy their needs - we can talk about the shape that might take - it is more than likely that we could solve the issue of people's inability to access the support structure at a time that is convenient to them. The vast majority of these students are carrying ICT devices such as the one I have my hand now. In 2015 many young people between the age of 20 and 35 years are saying that mathematics tuition or a mathematics support structure delivered on an ICT platform are not working for them. Let us consider the work of An Cosán in Jobstown and what those involved are doing with the online community college. They are teaching students throughout the country from a centre based in Tallaght. There is live interaction between the students and the tutor. What happens is recorded and, as a result, a student can go back the following night and go through the entire class again at his or her own convenience. Let us consider what ALISON is doing in Galway. ALISON is now the largest online global educator on the continent of Africa. A total of 30 people in Galway are teaching an entire continent online, predominantly on a part-time basis. Let us consider what the Khan Academy is doing. Two years ago there were 4,000 students using the Khan Academy platform in Ireland. Now, there are 93,000. Does the network face a challenge in terms of being able to reach out to students? Is there a solution to dealing with that challenge and is it the case that we have somehow not managed to bring the two together? Is that something the network is working towards? Does Dr. Mac an Bhaird see that as a major tool available to the network in addressing the challenge of mathematics proficiency in third level in future? It seems there is a solution and a problem waiting to dovetail. I am keen to know the views of the network on the matter.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I think this is wonderful. Anything that helps the situation for students moving from leaving certificate into third level must be welcomed. I want to go offside a little and discuss something not in the recommendations or the executive summary of the submission from the network. Perhaps it was not part of the remit. In any event, I am keen to know the opinions of our guests. How have we reached this stage of the problem and why is there a need for this network? What has happened? Aside from the obvious, what is the reason we are at this stage? What is the opinion of the network on why we have got so bad, so quickly in mathematics? Do the members of the deputation understand my question? What is their opinion in view of the fact that they now have a school of mathematics and they are meting it out in myriad areas? Why have we got so bad, so quickly in respect of this problem to warrant the existence of the network?

The network is essentially a travelling school of mathematics. What are our guests' views on awarding points for failure? That is what we are doing in the leaving certificate now. If a pupil fails honours mathematics or gets between 30% and 39%, he or she can pick up between 52 and 56 points. Perhaps I am not right on the matter, although I see some people nodding their heads. The representatives of the network can correct me if I am wrong. I realise it is an arbitrary figure but there is something wrong with saying that if a pupil gets between 30% and 39%, then she can pick up between 50 and 58 points on the pass paper. There is something radically wrong with that.

Is what the network is doing at the right level? Would our guests prefer to be dispersed into primary education? Senator Ó Clochartaigh mentioned that as well.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Only over the course of time.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am keen to take up a point Senator O'Donnell made about primary school. The previous speaker referred to the matter as well. I find it unusual that those working with the network have absolutely no interaction with the primary school sector. I would have thought that the network would have so much valuable knowledge gained on the teaching and learning of mathematics. I would have thought it unusual not to be joined up through all three levels. Do our guests have any plans to share the information they have discovered on the teaching and learning of mathematics with the primary sector? I imagine it could feed back to them and it would be worthwhile if it were more joined up.

I have often referred to my days of teaching and the practicality of teaching and learning mathematics. The methods worked even among very weak students. Going back 20 years, I used to print out the shares from the day's newspaper, give each of the students a fictitious £100 and let them buy shares for the day. Every week we valued our shares and they found it fascinating. Some of them were making money and others were losing money. I imagine some gamblers materialised subsequently from that teaching. Anyway, that is the type of teaching I have in mind. Those strategies could be shared throughout the sector. Our guests might address that matter. Does Senator Moran wish to ask a question?

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I thank the representatives of the network for attending. It was at my invitation and I apologise profusely for being late. This is positive mental health week. It is physically impossible to be in two different places at once. The Minister visited Dundalk this morning to launch an art exhibition but I got back as quickly as I could.

I am familiar with the work of the network and I will make some observations. I have being out advocating for this and it is fabulous to have it. I am speaking as a mother. In the case of two of my children, one availed of mathematics support in NUI Maynooth and another in NUI Galway. They were two products of the initiative.

They found it beneficial and I know, from the statistics contained in the report, that other people did too. Indeed, many people I have spoken to who have availed of mathematics support have often said it was the reason for continuing with their course. When one looks at the statistics on our level of mathematics on entry to third level education it is worrying. I am sure the witness has covered that already. It is fantastic because that is what is keeping many of those courses going. We are aware that there is a big push on the STEM subjects.

I again thank the witnesses. I am sure this question has been asked already, but how can we help? What can we do as a committee to help the witnesses progress their work?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Senator will review the transcript with interest after the meeting. Perhaps the witnesses would respond to the issues and questions raised.

Dr. Eabhnat Ní Fhloinn:

I will start with Deputy Cannon's question about ICT. What we strive to do with mathematics support is help students to become independent learners. That is a major struggle when they reach third level. They are not used to that type of approach. One of the problems with mathematics in particular is that students often do not know the terminology for what they cannot do. It is incredibly difficult for them to use ICT independently. They can follow a programme, a module or a course where everything has been laid out and they must do tutorial one and tutorial two and there are ICT resources for that programme. If they struggle to get the correct answer, they do not know which part of the answer at which they have arrived is incorrect, so they do not know the resource to look up to help them. That is the major problem for students who are really struggling. They do not know the terminology. They will often look up the wrong thing and decide the resource was useless because it did not help them with the right thing. In fact, however, they were looking at the wrong one. We find that for much of the time we are encouraging them to try to identify and pin down exactly the point at which their understanding breaks down and to come to us to find out what type of terminology we would use for that. This enables them to use the ICT resources related to that. However, it still requires person-to-person contact. The reason that happens to such an extent in mathematics is because so much of it is building blocks. If one misses one of those, one misses everything afterwards.

This addresses a little of what Senator Jim D'Arcy was asking regarding the end in sight for mathematics learning support. The problem is that there will always be people who were sick for a while previously, who came through a different education system, have dyslexia or have various different challenges and have missed something crucial at some point, sometimes in primary school and sometimes at second level. Sometimes it has just been a while and they cannot remember certain things. However, because one might be missing one or two of those crucial building blocks, it affects everything one does afterwards. We will probably never have a situation where everybody has grasped enough to do just fine without this extra help. Sometimes we see students who are really struggling in their course, but within half an hour or an hour of spending time with us and solving a few basic problems for them they suddenly find they are able to do the ones that look more complex. However, they cannot get to that stage without that. That is a major problem we see.

ICT resources would be great and the more we can use them, the better. We are trying to tailor things as much as possible to the needs of the students. We still believe, however, that we must be the middle man, as it were, between the student and the ICT resources.

Mr. Ciarán O'Sullivan:

In terms of ICT, the data for the survey was gathered a few years ago so things have moved on. Certainly, we have moved on in terms of how ICT-enabled supports are used for mathematics learning support. Last year we were trying to prototype a mathematics learning support whereby a student could access human support at a distance. We are conscious of trying to move that along, but it is evolving. We see mathematics learning support as a resource, much like the library. It is a key targeted intervention and can make a huge difference in the development of confidence.

Regarding working our way back to reasons from beforehand in primary, secondary and so forth, our expertise is in helping third level students at that key point. We endeavour to inform further back about what we have learned. Dr. Mac an Bhaird will respond further on that. I am involved in several projects, such as Maths Eyes, Green Maths and so forth, that try to build students' confidence at primary level. We are aware of that aspect but our mission or focus is on the two key transitions from second level or from adults working back into college. That is where we are busy but we are aware of the other issues.

With regard to the point about points for failure and so forth, that is beyond our expertise to discuss today.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

Which question do I pick? I will respond on all of them. Senator O'Donnell asked about the cause of the mathematics problem-----

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Generally.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

When we refer to the mathematics problem, it is loosely described as students coming to third level without the basic skills they need to cope. However, this is not unique to Ireland. The pioneers of mathematics support were principally in the UK. The vast majority of higher education institutions in the UK - they are not referred to as "third level" there - have some mathematics support. It is provided worldwide. The documentation shows that this is a problem everywhere. There is mathematics support in Australia, Canada and the US, to name just a few countries.

There are many reasons for that. I do not know that I can say what they are. Many more students are completing second level, which is one issue. A high number of students are going from second to third level. In the past, people were not completing second level and if they were, they were not going-----

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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What does that mean?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Senator, allow the witness to finish his contribution and you can come back in afterwards.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

I am saying that there are now more students in third level, students who possibly would not have gone there in the past. They are going into courses perhaps without the skills they require. That is one possibility.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Through the Chair-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the witness to continue with his contribution, in deference to all of us who have been here for a longer time.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

That is my opinion on the mathematics problem.

In terms of the interaction with other levels, we have done one thing. We have not done it with primary schools, although perhaps we have in local areas, but at secondary school level, Bill Lynch of Project Maths last year asked us to give the team a list of the most common problems we were encountering with students in first year. We carried out a quick survey of our colleagues across the country on the topics with which they were having issues. A training session was held in Drumcondra with the people who were going out to do the training sessions for Project Maths with the teachers. I and a colleague from Letterkenny went through the common issues we have and as a result they went to the schools to tell the teachers. That is one small part.

Many of us also provide the mathematics support model for secondary schools as well. It is only on a small basis, but we do some support. That ties in a little with the question asked by Senator Jim D'Arcy as to whether these students were not capable and needed the support to get through. Personally, I find it is a confidence issue. I recall one student who started. She has now finished her degree but she repeated her leaving certificate to get an ordinary level D3. She then did a degree in mathematics and got a 2.1. The first year was probably torture for me because she did not believe. She thought that this was her level and did not believe. She just was not approaching it in the right way. The big issue is that students struggle with mathematics. It is said in the media that mathematics is difficult. It is always in media. As soon as there is bad news about mathematics it is publicised; the good news is never publicised. However, soon this student realised that getting things wrong in mathematics is key. One thinks that if one is good mathematics, it is because one is smart. Of course, I agree with that completely but the point is that students who struggle with mathematics would not see that people who are so-called good at it get it wrong all the time. The issue is how they react to getting in wrong. It is like how we learn anything in life - we try it, we fail and we fail better. That is the idea with mathematics support. We try to get the students to the point where they realise the process. In my experience - I am sure it is the same for my colleagues - once one gets them to this point the more motivated ones begin to become more independent. They actually come in to show one the work they have got wrong and to discuss it. This is the key, from that point of view.

The question of whether there is an end in sight has already been addressed. On the competencies that are lacking, key skills is the main issue. I take on board the point about fractions. I understand it. Personally, I would ban calculators. That is my opinion but I know my colleagues will not do that.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Bring back the abacus.

Dr. Ciarán Mac an Bhaird:

That is my own opinion, but I know Mr. O'Sullivan does not agree.

Senator Moran asked what the committee can do to help. It is very hard to answer that question. The question of what level of funding we would require has been raised before. The main issue from our point of view is the underfunding of third level institutions in Ireland. When we go to our institution seeking an additional tutor or an additional hour of support per week the response we get from the institution is that it cannot provide it because it is operating within a fixed budget which must be shared out in a particular way. Increased funding for institutions would, I hope, result in more funding for maths supports. It would then be up to each network and so on to argue its case. Another issue is that of head count. In other words, the number of people that can be employed and the constant watch in that regard. I do not know how that can be solved. They are the issues about which we are hearing from our bosses.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegations for their presentations. I also thank members for engaging with the delegates, whom we wish well in the future with their valuable work.