John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the meeting is to engage with the chairperson designate of Raidió Teilifís Éireann, RTE, Ms Moya Doherty, to discuss the approach she proposes to take if and when she is appointed to the role and her views on the challenges facing the organisation. By this stage, members are well aware of the Government's decision in 2011 to put new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to meet with the chairperson designate in public session to hear her views. We trust this provides greater transparency in the process of appointments to State boards and bodies.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Moya Doherty. I draw her attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. In particular, I advise Ms Moya Doherty that any submission or opening statement she makes to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on Ms Moya Doherty to make her opening remarks.

Ms Moya Doherty:

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications today. I am delighted and indeed honoured to have been asked by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, and the Government to become chairperson of RTE.

One of the reasons I was attracted to the role was the way in which my experience as a former chair and a member of a range of boards, as a creative producer, as a business director and entrepreneur, as a developer of new work across all media, and, most of all, as an avid RTE consumer now reflects the range of skills necessary to be useful in the broadcast space.

It is no longer sufficient to think of the various aspects of the media industries - radio, television and digital - as separate, because now each piece of the media jigsaw is closely connected to the others in a kind of ecology where changes to one will have an immediate impact on the others. This is the media landscape that the rise of digital technology has brought us and all media must now consider how they are to filter and be filtered through the online space. This also means that, more than ever, RTE must remain central to Irish life and public discourse. Precisely because it holds such a unique position, what it does, how it does it and the framing of its future are important to all of us.

As per the committee's invitation, I am happy to discuss how I plan to approach my role and to set out my initial thoughts on the key challenges facing RTE. I will also outline some thoughts on the broader creative and cultural sector of which RTE is a key part, both as one of its largest employers of creative talent and as an important commissioner and producer of creative output.

The Broadcasting Act 2009 sets out across a number of articles the role of the RTE Board. As one would expect, the board has a key oversight role in approving strategy and budgets. It has a role in respect of the quality of output, performance commitments and ensuring efficiency and effectiveness. The board must safeguard the independence of the organisation from State, political and commercial interests. Perhaps most crucially of all, its role is to represent the interests of the audience. Possibly more than any other organisation, RTE plays a key role in helping to shape the Irish public's perception of their place in the world. As the national broadcaster, RTE must first and foremost aim to connect with, be relevant to and be trusted by the Irish people.

As the committee knows, the new board is not yet complete. The committee's nominees have not yet joined, but will do so in February. Overall, we have the mix and range of exceptional experience and skill sets among the new board members - those already appointed and those who will join shortly - to be highly effective. I am conscious that RTE engages in a broad range of activities in pursuit of its public service objects. The board must and will consider the whole of what RTE does and its overarching responsibilities as it considers changes, strategies and initiatives from management. I am convinced that the role of the board is at all times to provide guidance and support to management where possible and to challenge when appropriate.

Central to all of our deliberations and engagements will be audiences. Representing the interests of viewers and listeners is our first responsibility. In the committee's work, members will have seen that audiences and audience behaviour are changing rapidly. Enabled by new technology and much faster connectivity, people can access programming and content from anywhere in the world on their telephones, tablets, computers and televisions.

Audiences are not uniform, though. People of different ages and in different locations are doing different things. Some are adapting to new technologies quickly whereas others are moving at a much slower pace. Audience habits also vary significantly by genre, with live consumption of radio and television programming such as news, sport and major entertainment shows remaining the dominant trend. The role of the board is to represent the interests of all of these audience types. The board already has an example of how we are doing this with the decision before Christmas to slow down the speed of the transition of RTE Radio 1 from long wave radio transmission to digital services.

Understanding changes in audience behaviour and making use of a variety of data sources on how audiences are changing are essential for any media organisation today. It is perhaps even more important for public service media, which is obliged to meet the needs of all audiences across the range of its services. This does not mean programming being driven solely by statistical numbers and audience ratings. RTE's mission is much broader than that. However, it does mean making decisions informed by an analysis of the patterns in audience and industry trends. The sophisticated use of data in this way allows a body like RTE to illustrate clearly the impact it is having on economic and social capital.

Just as new digital technology is changing audience habits, so too is it challenging the business models and strategies of traditional media companies. My initial observation is that RTE, through the launch of numerous digital services in recent years, has largely managed to keep pace with changing technology. In some regards, such as the recently launched GAAGO product or RTE News Now, RTE has been a real innovator in the market.

I am conscious that, regarding news in particular, changing technology is having the greatest impact of all. While television bulletins continue to retain large audiences, particularly in the evening, people are increasingly getting their news on mobile devices from digital news services. News is one of the key pillars in the creation of a national identity and the board must ensure that a full overview of the events central to Irish life, locally and globally, is freely available to all at key moments in the day. The drive to an online presence has two key components, namely, the provision of anywhere, anytime access for the audience and the creation of high-quality, platform-neutral content that can be adapted to suit the relevant broadcast medium.

Given the explosion in services and providers in the past ten years and the apparent dominance of externally produced content, particularly from the USA, the role of RTE in framing and representing the culture of Ireland becomes even more important. This does not mean developing a representation of Irish culture that is essentialist or monolithic. The cultural framing offered by RTE should reflect the diversity of our national identity and strive to place Ireland in a global context. It does not involve seeing externally created programmes as some form of cultural imperialism, but viewing the best of it as a marker for the creation of RTE programming and content that can compete and represent Ireland on external platforms across the globe.

This is a field in which I have some experience. All good cultural content comes through a process of appropriation of the best. This will involve collaboration with willing partners in other states. If RTE does not do this, no one else will. "Love/Hate" illustrates what is possible, as indeed does Radio 1's "Documentary on One", which is recognised as one the best radio documentary strands anywhere in the world.

Although I worked inside RTE for a period, for the past 20 years or so I have been a producer in the cultural and media area. In that time, I have had the opportunity to observe RTE from the outside. Like many people in the creative sector, I have had my frustrations with RTE, but more than anything I came to understand the importance of the relationship between it and the wider creative industries. While much public debate often revolves around RTE's news and current affairs programming, within the creative sector RTE's role is essential. In the global economy's most difficult years, the creative industries have comprised one of the few growth areas, showing at 10% three times the growth of any other industry and, in the UK context, creating £8.8 million per hour for the economy. In the Irish context, the growth rate has been averaging at approximately 3% each year since 2003.

RTE is the sector's largest direct employer as well as commissioner of independent television productions. It provides crucial opportunities for actors, writers and other creative professionals to supplement their work in theatre and film. It is also the country's largest employer of musicians. When RTE focuses on and supports cultural events, for example, culture night, the national ploughing championships or the BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition, it helps to drive audiences, enthusiasm and energy to those events.

The creative sector in Ireland has critical co-dependencies. For example, RTE needs a thriving independent production sector if it is to produce creative, challenging and high-quality programming. The independent sector needs RTE as the key commissioner, funder and broadcaster of Irish-made programming.

One way into this debate is through a report produced for the UK Government by Mr. Will Hutton of the Work Foundation, entitled "Staying Ahead: The economic performance of the UK's creative industries". Even though this was produced in 2007, it is still relevant.

This seminal document outlines the importance of the creative industries to the economy while examining the most successful creative industries and companies. It illustrates the stages by which creative expression becomes economic product, a process at which RTE must be the centre.

As with many other sectors, the recession has been hugely damaging to the whole creative sector in Ireland. Public funding and commercial income in the cultural sector has fallen substantially over the past five years. RTE's funding position, and subsequent capacity to invest in the broader creative sector, has been hugely diminished. While RTE has reduced its costs to adjust for huge falls in commercial income and public funding, these cost reductions have rippled through the entire creative sector. RTE's investment in the independent television sector, for example, has reduced from over €75 million in 2008 to under €40 million in 2013, mirroring similar large reductions in inhouse production. In television drama, a key area of employment in the sector, RTE's total spend has halved over the same period.

RTE has the capacity to be a key engine for growth in the Irish creative sector. To achieve this potential RTE needs much more certainty on its funding, public funding in particular. By way of starting a dialogue there are questions we both need to ask, such as what is happening with the public service media charge? Why has Ireland one of the most inefficient and ineffective licence fee systems of anywhere in western Europe? Why is it acceptable that over €30 million is lost every year to licence fee evasion when the sector as a whole is crying out for investment, and our culture is increasingly being diluted with more and more UK and US programming?

I hope that over the course of my time as chair of RTE some of these questions can be addressed. I thank the Chairman for the time and I am more than happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Doherty for a full overview of her role. Before I hand over to members I wish to question the last remarks she made about the difficult funding situation in RTE and the cutbacks it has made. She also mentioned the new broadcasting charge.

Over the years this committee has received representations and presentations from the independent sector seeking a slice of the licence fee. Independent broadcasters in radio and local broadcasters claim that they have a public service remit as well. In addition, media has become so diverse in recent times, for example UTV has entered the market recently. Can RTE continue to demand all of the public licence fee? Is there an argument for the opposite?

Ms Moya Doherty:

I thank the Chairman for such important questions. I shall outline the history behind the licence fee. RTE gets 83% of the current licence fee and the remaining 17% goes to other areas like the Sound and Vision fund and TG4.

I am concerned along with the board, when it is fully joined with RTE, about ensuring RTE has sufficient funding to service its remit. Anything beyond that is something that this committee and the Government must decide.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Doherty and call Deputy Moynihan.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Doherty and wish her well in her challenging role as chair of RTE, the State broadcaster. Before discussing issues I always start by asking chairpersons designate a standard question. Is or has Ms Doherty ever been a member of a political party?

RTE is faced with a number of issues. Ms Doherty has mentioned licence fees and that 83% goes to RTE and 17% goes elsewhere. The first question independent broadcasters will ask in any discussion of licence fees is whether RTE gives value for money in terms of the methods and costs involved in producing programmes. Any major RTE programme always has a raft of producers, sub-producers and researchers but independent broadcasters do not seem to use the same amount of people. Is Ms Doherty satisfied, as chairperson, that everything has been looked at in terms of the cost base for programme production in RTE?

In terms of recent controversies, a huge question hangs over some of the current affairs programmes. In particular, allegations were made against innocent people in the programmes. Also, during the presidential election, RTE could not source a tweet. RTE sat in front of this committee and told us it could not source the tweet but every five or six-year old child can do it within seconds. It is incredible that the State broadcaster could not do the same.

I wish to discuss a number of other issues. I come from a rural constituency. Some people say that a weather crisis in Dublin always makes headlines on RTE. Ms Doherty spoke about creative arts and the talent in the country. Is she satisfied that RTE looks at the nation as a whole in regard to broadcasting, media coverage and what is out there? There is a perception, rightly, that it is a matter of Dublin versus the rest of the country in terms of RTE. One must challenge that situation. There is a huge amount of talent that needs to be harnessed. We must ensure that the State broadcaster represents all of the country. That is one of things that I ask her to look at and to challenge.

Another issue that constantly arises is the major salaries paid by RTE. How is that justified? The figures are mentioned on a daily and weekly basis. Are they justifiable at this stage? Over the years it has been constantly said that RTE had to pay the salaries because if it did not individuals would go to another media outlet or whatever. I am certain there is plenty of talent available to replace them. One of my criticisms of RTE is that it did not bring in new people at all levels in order to make sure it did not have an over-reliance on one or two individuals. That being said, there is a pile of positives within RTE. Over the years it has done a massive service to the State.

There is an issue about licence fees for the State broadcaster. Ms Doherty spoke about evasion and so forth. Recently there have been reports on the evasion issue. In terms of the new broadcasting charge and everything else, is the chairperson of the board prepared to satisfy the Irish people's request that RTE provides value for money? I may mention a few more of these issues later.

I wish Ms Doherty well as chairperson and the committee looks forward to discussions with her over the years.

Ms Moya Doherty:

I thank Deputy Moynihan. I can easily answer the Deputy's first question. I am not nor have I ever been a member of a political party.

Sometimes it is easy to overlook what RTE does.

The Deputy asked about value for money. There are always ways to generate new efficiencies. RTE has had a number of independent reports done and the most recent one, the NewERA report, will be published soon. RTE has had to cut its costs dramatically over the past four or five years. It has reduced its costs by 30% and has reduced its staff levels by 500 and it is now down to 1,800 staff. Its operating costs have been reduced by €130 million.

As an independent broadcaster, I have experience of making programmes on tight budgets. I also have experience of being within RTE and making programmes, albeit at a very different time. The money being spent on content now in RTE is being very tightly spent. It is managing it well from what I have seen and from what has been delivered to me, to date, since I went in there.

The rural constituent comes up regularly. I asked the management if it had any numbers on hours of broadcast for rural programming. It is quite difficult to get those statistics because within any news bulletin, one could have 30% or 40% from the regions or one might have 10%. However, RTE has a very high regional profile and we must not forget that RTE, through its licence fee and the Irish people, funds Raidió na Gaeltachta which delivers enormously to rural communities. What RTE has done with the ploughing championships has been enormous as has what it has done with the Rose of Tralee, the young scientist competition and the all-Ireland school choir competition.

There is always room for improvement in everything. I hope that every day I, in my role as chair, and the RTE board will ask those questions and that we will, I hope, get the answers that satisfy us. On the current situation, RTE has had a very painful history, both for it and the Irish people. It has put an entire system in place. When my new board is in place, we will see the head of news and current affairs and we will, as a board, ask the questions the Deputy asked but from the answers I have received already from management in RTE, there are strong editorial markers and pillars in place to ensure those mistakes do not occur again.

If one looks at the programming RTE delivered prior to Christmas, "Inside Bungalow 3" made probably the most harrowing viewing I have ever seen as a viewer. That programme, on behalf of RTE and the Irish people, secured a huge audience of 690,000 people, so there is much that is good within RTE. It does very good work across news and current affairs. "The Late Late Toy Show" had an audience of more than 1 million. That audience spread is a national spread.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Doherty for her presentation and wish her the very best. She has an extremely impressive CV and I think she will bring much to the board of RTE. We still face challenges and Ms Doherty touched on many of those in regard to creating Irish drama, documentaries and public affairs programmes people actually watch. She used "Love/Hate" as an example. If we could have more programmes like that, it would be a lot better. It was very interesting to hear her views. Perhaps Ms Doherty will not be able to answer this question but does she have a programme set out for herself? Is there an issue with which she wants to start? Has she set herself any timeframes and goals in that regard?

Ms Moya Doherty:

I am very much part of a board, although as chair, I am the leader of the board. I eagerly await the new members joining the board. As I said earlier, there is a tremendous skill set. My number one drive for the board and for RTE will be to ensure that the audience gets value for money and that RTE's funding is secure so that it can make decisions to make more quality drama and more investigative programmes, which cost a lot of money and require a lot of resources.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I wish Ms Doherty the very best. This committee is sometimes critical of RTE but all of us appreciate the absolute necessity in this State for public service broadcasting which is independent of commercial interests, political interests and, indeed, government pressure. That is essential.

We are proud of much of the very good work RTE does and I, for one, am not slow to express that pride when I think it is necessary. I will criticise when I believe is necessary but I will also recognise what is good, valuable and essential in a democracy such as ours.

Ms Doherty is very well qualified to carry out this role and she has a very impressive CV. I would like to hear her thoughts rather than a prescriptive answer to the following questions. I refer to media monopolies. RTE is independent but there is much public discourse currently in regard to media monopolies or an over-dominance by key players within the broader media. I am not just talking about broadcasting. How can Ms Doherty ensure the board continues to maintain this independent view in an environment where we may be moving towards over-dominance of broader media by key players?

My second question is in regard to the development of new talent and I am not talking about "The Voice of Ireland" or shows like that. Some commentators say that when RTE engages with the independent production sector, the same names continue to crop up. Is it the authority's role to ensure that new talent is encouraged and that it is not the same old group of companies or there is not a short list of companies that are selected every time? How will Ms Doherty ensure that role is discharged?

Ms Moya Doherty:

I thank Deputy Colreavy. In regard to his first question on media monopolies, RTE is very heavily regulated. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland - some of my colleagues from the authority are in this room today - regulates RTE along with the Department, so I think we are well covered to ensure we remain independent.

In regard to development of new talent, I have worked in this sector all my life and I know how precarious it is. I admire those who exist in an area of the creative industries where there is no pension and no security of employment, where they must travel to where the work is and where the contracts are short. The role of the board will be to ensure training. Training is hugely important and perhaps when the economy was so poor, there was no funding for training. I hope that now, RTE will be able to put training systems in place for new talent to come through the system, because it takes time. One must learn the skills of presenting, of making television programmes and of editing. If one can work alongside the experienced, then one will learn more quickly. I hope training will be part of what I will look at as chair of the board of RTE.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Ms Doherty and wish her well in her role. I concur with a much of what she said about RTE, including the many positive aspects of public service broadcasting.

The concept of accountability has entered the public arena recently. Members of the Oireachtas have rightly to be accountable for the public's money, including our salaries and expenses. Yet, RTE seems to work in an environment where it is okay to take somebody on and provide their salary details in three years' time. Does Ms Doherty think that is acceptable in the current economic climate? As chairperson of the board, will she do anything to redress it? I may be wrong but some recent media commentary concerned one individual who said - to paraphrase him - that he would leave the country if Deputy Enda Kenny ever became Taoiseach. He is due back on the airwaves in RTE soon, yet his salary will not be disclosed for three years. I wonder if Ms Doherty is comfortable with that, in her role as chairperson.

Previous speakers mentioned the independence of the broadcaster free of commercial interests. Is Ms Doherty satisfied that this is the case? For instance, if a bank were to sponsor a current affairs programme, does she think there could be a suggestion of a lack of independence in that context, where a programme is being sponsored by somebody who might be perceived to have a vested interest? Given that RTE receives over 80% of the licence fee, which accounts for over €170 million, is there a need for commercial enterprises to sponsor current affairs programmes where opinion is being formulated?

Deputy Moynihan alluded to serious gaffes that occurred in RTE, particularly in the run-up to the presidential election. How satisfied is Ms Doherty that this has been fixed? Recently I have been listening more attentively to current affairs programmes, particularly at the weekend, and balance is something that I am always conscious of. In her role as chairperson, would Ms Doherty find two Opposition spokespersons and one Government spokesperson on a major prime time Saturday afternoon current affairs radio programme as being balanced? Or would she find two Government spokespersons and one Opposition spokesperson balanced?

There has been a tendency, certainly in the recent past, whereby balance has been thrown out the window. How does Ms Doherty feel that marries with the concept of RTE being a public service broadcaster while drawing down 80% of the licence fee?

It is important not to fix something that is not broken. At one stage, I asked the RTE director general about the old concept of "Questions and Answers" in current affairs programming. Since John Bowman left RTE television, there has not been a "Questions and Answers" type of programme. He was able to weed out the political plants in the audience. Sometimes when one turns on programmes such as "The Frontline", "Prime Time" with an audience, there are as many plants in the audience as one would see in a garden centre. They are anything but fair and balanced, whether to the Government or Opposition. I wonder why the old format of "Questions and Answers" had to be done away with. Why can it not be brought back? If it is not broken, do not fix it.

Many of our constituents are asking why "Winning Streak" has been ditched. The audience for that slot went from a little over 400,000 down to 200,000 in one week. In terms of the licence fee and public service broadcasting, how does Ms Doherty react to that collapse of viewing figures in the space of seven days?

RTE's 2FM is in competition with commercial radio stations across the country. We have seen the JNLR figures time and again, which show that the commercial stations are certainly struggling. Is there a plan to do anything differently there or will it continue as it is? With 80% of the television licence going into a protected environment that is also able to carry commercial advertisements, local radio stations feel they are in competition with 2FM which is protected and insulated, but nothing seems to be happening to correct that situation.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a long list of questions there.

Ms Moya Doherty:

It is a long list. I thank Deputy O'Donovan. To my knowledge - I stand to be corrected - I do not believe that RTE supports the sponsorship of current affairs programming. I do not think it is something it does or has done.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Ms Doherty might check the main drive-time radio programme and ask who it is sponsored by.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is sponsored.

Ms Moya Doherty:

Yes, but it could be termed a features programme, as opposed to pure current affairs. It deals with some news issues.

With regard to accountability, as a board we would want to ensure absolute independence. As I said earlier in my address, our first and foremost responsibility is to the audience. As a former producer or editor of any programming, it is difficult to pick out individual programmes and decide why RTE as an editor would have dropped them, or not. There has to be an element of calculated risk when one is making television programming.

As regards retaining formats that work, it is RTE's and the editorial staff's right to change. There are arguments about keeping what works and changing. Certainly, if something is failing desperately, the RTE management will look closely at it. The board, and I as chairperson, will be asking questions as to why that is happening.

The Deputy referred to "Questions and Answers" and "Winning Streak". Every time RTE changes or closes something there is an outcry because sometimes the audience does not like change; they like familiarity. That probably shows the relationship RTE has with its audience nationally - it is that familiarity of being the heritage broadcaster.

I would like to think that we have strong current affairs editors in place where balance is hugely important. One may listen to a programme across two hours, but the view has to be taken across 24 hours or a week. With the new members, the board will be well equipped to ensure that we ask the right questions of the management in RTE.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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What about the question I asked concerning people's salaries not being disclosed for three years? If it was happening in Irish Water, for instance, RTE would be running "Prime Time" specials from now until kingdom come to get the salaries out of them. Yet there seems to be no difficulty in not releasing someone's salary for three years within the State broadcaster. Surely that is not acceptable in terms of accountability.

Ms Moya Doherty:

I have asked the management in RTE about the salary of an individual who has recently moved to join RTE. I have been assured that the sponsorship that has been received for the programme that Ray D'Arcy will be presenting - starting next week - more than covers the salary.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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This is important, Chairman. That is not the question I asked. As chairperson of the board, does Ms Doherty feel it is acceptable in 2015, given the backdrop, that somebody's salary in the public sector will not be revealed for three years?

Ms Moya Doherty:

First, I am told that 50% of the top ten presenters' salaries in Ireland are in RTE, while the other 50% are in the independent sector. It can be commercially sensitive information but I will go to the board and will get the board's view on that. We will talk to management about it. At the moment the agreement is two years in arrears.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I do not think that would be acceptable anywhere else in the public sector.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If I am interpreting it correctly, the question is whether RTE can demand transparency and public accountability for others that it does not apply to itself.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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How credible is it that RTE would be examining other elements of the public sector when the same principles do not apply to itself?

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The question has been posed today and Ms Doherty has not taken over yet. The question has been asked and it will need to be answered in public somewhere along the line if not today.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Doherty. She is an outstanding choice who has developed phenomenal experience and displayed fantastic skills over her career. I can only believe these will be of immense benefit to the national broadcaster. She is taking over the helm of a wonderful organisation with a wonderful history and a very strong reputation. It does outstanding work, but it will be faced with significant challenges and issues in the future, particularly around competition for the private sector. As a very strong advocate of public service broadcasting, I have my own concerns about that. With the changing nature of broadcasting and how people source content, the challenges are great. Ms Doherty's skills and experience will be required to guide the organisation through that time. Given that Ms Doherty is still chairperson designate, I intend only to flag some issues and do not expect her to comment in any great detail. I would suggest she will need to be mindful of these issues as she takes on the role.

RTE has come through a difficult patch in recent years and has handled the situation very well in spite of what had happened. We do not need to get into the idiosyncrasies of how that came about. The management team is very strong and both Noel Curran and Kevin Bakhurst have shown great dynamism in leading the change that was necessary. That is not to take from any of the people who were already there. We have a wonderful pool of talented, highly-committed people who work very hard to deliver on public service broadcasting because clearly they believe in it.

There are some issues I would flag at this time. I do not intend to get caught up in the salaries issue. There is a media issue I would prefer to raise. The media have got to hold us to account, that is their job. There is the media and journalistic aspect of RTE and then there is the back-end management, which has to be done separately. It is very clear that we are on an election footing. I have no doubt that RTE believes absolutely in balance and will attempt in so far as is humanly possible to deliver on that. However, issues do arise. I am sure they can arise for all political parties, but the different parties will raise their own concerns. The concern I would raise is balance.

There seem to be some magazine or feature-style programmes which stray on occasion - perhaps on more occasions than one might want - into the area of politics because politics is part of rural and urban life, regardless. I often think that balance does not exist there or that people are less acutely aware of it, because those programmes fall outside the typical news and current affairs area. I would flag that as something for Ms Doherty to keep an eye on. I find RTE's news output to be exceptionally well balanced, but I have questions about some of its current affairs coverage. In that regard "Prime Time" has improved greatly although it has a way to go.

The first week of the new Claire Byrne show was excellent and I would have said last Monday night's programme was also excellent, only that I happen to be aware there was nothing pre-arranged to balance out the programme. There was a head-to-head debate between the leaders of two of the main political parties but it seems no series has been organised involving Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. That is fine - things like that will happen in the course of events, but the Taoiseach tends not to engage in debate, so that leaves one party out of the mix. Care has to be taken as we enter this phase of the electoral cycle that there is a robust platform in place to ensure there is absolute balance, and that RTE does not move ahead with one part until it is sure it can do the entire series. That is a comment, not something I want to get hung up on because I respect and recognise the difficulties in trying to ensure that everybody is looked after.

I wish Ms Doherty well. She has some considerable challenges in dealing with the outside world. I know she has the capacity to do it and that it is well within her grasp and that of her management team to drive RTE into the next century.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I wish Ms Doherty well in her new role and do not doubt she has the capability, competence and experience to fulfil it in a very meaningful way. Along with a number of other people in different positions, I have a bee in my bonnet which, hopefully, will be addressed with a new broom and a new board. Something I think Ms Doherty and the RTE board should seriously examine is the failure to give an opportunity to Irish musicians across the airwaves.

I am very strongly supportive of the concept of public service broadcasting and am a strong advocate of it, but I have to say there has been a huge failure in this regard. Notwithstanding the great PR replies that come from RTE - it sent me a reply with four pages, it was a model of PR - musicians do not complain unless there is a legitimate reason. There would be thousands of jobs in the morning if they got proper advocacy, opportunity and fair play. There are 8,000 jobs. Ms Doherty knows this as well as anybody. This is coming from people like Johnny Duhan, Steven Travers and all those people at the coal-face. It is a huge industry and RTE is not playing its role. It is easier for the camel to get through the eye of a needle than for certain acts to get on RTE. I have evidence of that.

I know six brothers, the Willoughby brothers in County Wicklow. It is so unusual to get six brothers talking, let alone singing and all of them well-trained singers. They happen to be all-Ireland handballers as well and they reflect everything that is in the culture. They have made numerous efforts to get on RTE but it is the same old faces that come out.

Ireland exists outside of the Pale, outside of the outer rim of Dublin. There is a heartland there, which most of us in this room represent. There are people like Mike Denver, Jason Travers, Nathan Carter, Derek Ryan, Michael English, Robert Mizzell and Johnny Brady, who are all doing very well. They are bringing the people back into the ballrooms, despite not getting decent air-play on RTE, not because of it. People are paying for their albums and paying for the music and employing people. These musicians are a major employer.

The BBC gives opportunities for new acts to get on the scene. France has a quota system. I know the broadcasting authority and will be putting this question to it. I want to know if Ms Doherty will support the idea of a quota system. Our music is part of our culture. I am not talking about any particular genre - it stretches from U2, The Coronas, The Script, right through to Mary Black, Christy Moore and then to Carter and the country and western scene. I believe it has been denied exposure. When we were growing up we listened to programmes in the evenings that reflected all that. Now that has been wiped. I know Ronan Collins and John Credon play a bit and Kieran Hanrahan is good for the traditional music on a Saturday night but that is all.

Does Ms Doherty realise that over a quarter of a million people attend the Fleadh? U2 would not get that in the Phoenix Park, and it is part of what we are. Will RTE grab the ball here and start changing its outlook? It should give those people a fair chance. Further, will it meet representatives of the music industry rather than saying it provides a small slot in its scheduling to address this issue. As I said before in the Dáil, even if there was a quota system, could it work here? There is no use in having Kylie Minogue coming over to the Windmill Lane studios recording something and then declaring that what she has done is Irish. Kylie Minogue is then played and the output comes from Ireland.

The people who are on the coal face, tramping the highways and byways of Ireland, are the people I want to see given an opportunity in RTE. It is our biggest broadcaster. I support paying the licence fee but I want to see everybody given a level playing field. It is no use playing somebody who is just coming in, recording here and then saying it is Irish. It is only a bit of an Irish production, which will satisfy output requirements but no more than that.

The approach I advocate works in France. Everybody has this idea that it does not work. I know that when the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland introduces licences that target specific audiences, there is a condition that a certain percentage of the output must be Irish. There is no use in trotting out the same old excuse. I have researched this matter. Would Ms Doherty support the introduction of a quota system that would ensure Irish artists get an opportunity? I have been given an assurance that if RTE played such a role, it would generate 8,000 jobs, not just in large urban centres but right across the rural areas that most of us represent. We can imagine the excitement that would result from those jobs.

I would like to make a final point before I conclude. The Chairman is more familiar than anyone here with the activities of people like Paul Claffey and Gerry Glennon at Ireland West Music Television because its studios are located in his local area. It broadcasts five hours of Irish music on channel 266 every night. An hour of Irish music is also available on channel 191 every night. Why can RTE not do that? Why is it just left to these channels? People like Paul Claffey and Gerry Glennon have done a great job of getting out all these artists, who will confirm that such publicity gets people to follow them and pay through the door, which creates employment for doormen, salesmen, recording artists, studios and transport companies, etc. I ask officials from RTE to meet representatives of these organisations to hear at first hand what they have to say, rather than dismissing them with a cursory wave of the hand. I have been subject to such treatment in recent months.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Penrose for his contribution, which was well put.

Ms Moya Doherty:

I am singing from the same hymn sheet as Deputy Penrose. I have worked in the music industry. I have employed traditional musicians and people involved in other forms of music for years. RTE is the biggest employer of musicians in this country. There is a broad church of music and I think RTE should be reflecting that.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We have often heard the reply about the symphony orchestra. We all accept that. It is an important national institution, but it is Dublin-based for the most part. It comes out the country as well. We should talk about the people on the ground.

Ms Moya Doherty:

Absolutely. As the chair of RTE, I will be talking to the board about that.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like to add to what Deputy Penrose has said. The level of interest in this type of music has been reflected by the local radio stations. The Deputy mentioned Ireland West Music Television and the same thing applies to local radio stations around the country. There is a need to reflect the interest to which I refer.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We might expect to see "Love/Hate" at the ballroom of romance next year.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will watch this space.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Nidge with a guitar.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank Ms Doherty for attending today's meeting, engaging with the committee in an open and transparent manner and answering its questions. I wish her well. She is bringing a huge range of skills to her new position. We will propose that a copy of the transcript of this discussion be sent to the Minister. We wish Ms Doherty well with her new appointment in the coming years.