John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask members, witnesses and those in the public gallery to turn off their mobile phones, as they interfere with sound quality in the transmission of the meeting.

I advise witnesses that you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to do so, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible you should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee should also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. John Treacy, CEO of the Irish Sports Council, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. John Treacy:

I am happy to be here today to outline the work of the Irish Sports Council. The council is represented by Mr. Kieran Mulvey, chairman, and June Menton, our financial director.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Donagh Morgan, from the Department of Transport and Sport, is also here. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to introduce his report on the relevant appropriation accounts.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Irish Sports Council was established under the Irish Sports Council Act 1999. Its main functions are to encourage the promotion, development and co-ordination of competitive sport and to facilitate and promote increased participation in sport. The Council is almost exclusively State-funded from the Vote for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

In 2012, grant income - including some deferred pension funding - totalled €45 million. The Council generated other income of €553,000. Expenditure in 2012 was €45.4 million. The Council had a surplus for the year of €87,000, compared to a deficit of €477,000 in 2011. The Council’s administration costs in 2012 amounted to €2.7 million, with payroll and pension costs accounting for €2 million.

Almost 90% of the Council’s programme expenditure is accounted for by grant payments to sports bodies and individuals, with grant allocation decisions being approved at council or council sub-committee level. Figure 2 on the documentation shows the main categories of grant payment in 2012. The largest single area in relation to grants paid is grants to national governing bodies for sports, which totalled €11 million. Grants for field sports - that is, grants to the FAI, the GAA and the IRFU - totalled €8 million. High-performance grants, which are also paid to national governing bodies, totalled €6.4 million. The remainder of the council’s expenditure - €4.6 million - was accounted for by a number of programmes it operates directly. This included expenditure of €1.3 million on the Institute of Sport, just under €1 million spent on anti-doping measures and €0.9 million spent on programmes aimed at increasing participation in sport. The Council’s financial statements for 2012 received an unqualified audit opinion. The fieldwork for the audit of the 2013 financial statements was carried out in June. The results of the audit are currently being reviewed, and I expect to receive the file for examination shortly.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Mr. Treacy to give his opening statement.

Mr. John Treacy:

The Irish Sports Council is the statutory body for sport, established in July 1999 under the Irish Sports Council Act 1999. We are responsible for planning, leading and co-ordinating the sustainable development of competitive and recreational sport. In 2014, a total of €42.5 million will be invested by the public, through the council, in the areas of anti-doping, coaching, governing bodies, high performance, participation, national trails and the Irish Institute of Sport. A total of 92% of the council’s funding will go directly to programmes.

The council has 35 full time staff, 19 of whom are based in Dublin and a further 18 in Limerick following Coaching Ireland’s integration into the Irish Sports Council in January 2013.

To support our mission, the council prepares a three-year strategy statement. For the period 2012 to 2014, the council's priorities are advancing the participation strategy, developing the capacity of the national governing body sector and sustaining high-performance systems. Participation in sport in Ireland continues to grow at an unprecedented level. The latest statistics announced yesterday from the ISC, published under the title of the Irish Sports Monitor, indicate that 47.2% of people participated in sport in 2013, compared to 44.8% in 2011. In real terms, that is 1,700,000 people participating in sport on a weekly basis. That is up 85,000 in the last three years. This positive trend is reinforced by the continued decrease in sedentary lifestyles, falling to 12.6% in 2013 from 13.8% in 2011. Sport is also playing a significant part in closing the gender gap. The research released yesterday highlights that between 2011 and 2013, women’s participation in sport grew from 40.9% to 42.7%. This represents roughly an additional 32,000 women taking part in some form of sporting activity. Closing the gender gap is hugely important for our participation levels.

The council continues to lead in the area of welfare and the protection of young people in sport. We play an advisory role on this for the sporting organisations. The code of ethics and good practice for children's sport provides support to those involved in sport for young people to provide a safe, positive and nurturing environment where children can develop and enhance their physical and social skills.

In the area of high performance, Ireland continues to excel on the world stage. In 2013, Ireland achieved an unprecedented 67 medals at world and European level. To put this in context, in 2000, following the establishment of the council, six medals were achieved at world and European levels. In London, we achieved our most successful Olympic and Paralympic games, returning a record five Olympic and 16 Paralympic medals. It was far beyond our own expectations of what could have been achieved. We published our targets the year before the Olympic Games and we exceeded them. This year, 2014, is set to be another phenomenal year on the track, in the ring, on the road and in the water. The success of athletes such as Martyn Irvine, Mark English, Jason Smyth, Katie Taylor and Michael McKillop represents the most successful sustained period in the history of high-performance sport in Ireland.

This is due to sustained investment over a long period, which is how we build a high-performance system.
This success is also based on high-performance strategies we have developed and continue to develop. In 2001, we launched our first strategy. In 2014 we will work with 19 governing bodies of sport on development of their high-performance plans. Eighty-five athletes will be directly supported under the international carding scheme based on the criteria for podium, world class and international athletes, while nine golfers will be supported under the Team Ireland golf trust programme. We are also implementing the recommendations of the independent review following our London performance and have successfully implemented the transition of the international carding scheme to athletics, sailing and swimming, as recommended in the review.
At the Irish Institute of Sport, we are providing high-performance athletes and coaches with an environment to perform on the world stage through the delivery of world-class supports, people and systems. In 2013, 183 athletes from 20 sports attended clinics at the institute, with over 2,600 hours of support services provided directly to athletes. In the context of high-performance sport, it is important to ensure we deliver world class services in Ireland for our athletes so they do not need to go overseas. Plans are in place for development of a high-performance system at our sports campus, and this will ensure our athletes will have world-class support here. This is another important milestone in the development of a high-performance system in Ireland.
Underpinning the success at both elite and grassroots level are the national governing bodies of sport, NGBs. We work closely with over 60 governing bodies. With their member clubs and affiliates, national governing bodies organise and administer most of the organised sport in Ireland. They train and deploy coaches, organise representative level sport and provide sporting opportunities and pathways from local sport to national and international competition. Our investment is used to support NGBs in the areas of strategic planning, administration, information technology, competitions, equipment, coaching and core activities, including the code of ethics and anti-doping programmes. We are also implementing a capacity-building programme with the governing bodies and offer a myriad of programmes through which we can upskill the sector and professional people within the organisations. We also offer corporate governance support for boards of NGBs. This support is provided directly if required or if we see the need for it.
In 2014, membership across the sporting sector reached record highs. Membership in athletics has increased 62.7% since 2010, to 49,000, while cycling membership has increased by 207.2% since 2010, to over 20,000. NGBs are putting themselves in an appropriate position to help people participating in sport and to provide sustained involvement to members of clubs. It is vital that this work continue.
The Irish Sports Council is encouraging all funded bodies to sign up to the governance code for the community and voluntary organisations. As the first State agency in Ireland to encourage the adoption of the code, we are looking to empower funded bodies to achieve excellence in all areas of their work, ensuring their sustainability for the future. In 2013, the then Minister and Minister of State, Deputies Varadkar and Ring, asked Mr. Paul Turpin, governance specialist with the Institute of Public Administration, to examine the Irish Sports Council’s procedures in regard to conflicts of interest on the part of members of the council and to assess whether it meets the requirements of good corporate governance and to make such recommendations in regard to improved corporate governance in the Irish Sports Council as might arise from his examination. Mr. Turpin submitted his report to the Minister in December and it was published in January 2014. The Irish Sports Council welcomed the report, which found that the council's procedures are “in line with norms and practices prevailing within the State and public sector bodies,” and furthermore that “the current written Irish Sports Council procedures correspond with the main principles of good governance”.
On the issue of anti-doping, our commitment to clean sport is relentless. Our world class anti-doping programme is internationally recognised by the world anti-doping agency. In 2013, 868 tests were conducted as part of the national testing programme, with three anti-doping violations recorded. We will probably carry out a similar number of tests in 2014 and are on track in that regard. Our programme continues to be intelligence-led, including the development of quality-led targeted blood testing. We work with representatives of the Irish Medicines Board, the Garda national drugs unit and the Revenue Commissioners' customs service to further establish the intelligence programme within the anti-doping unit.
I hope I have been able to give the committee some flavour of the work of the council. In the context of participation, numbers are increasing significantly and we see an impact in terms of the work of the local sports partnerships, LSPs, and national governing bodies, with the co-operation of the Departments of Health and Transport, Tourism and Sport, in terms of ensuring we are all on the same message to encourage people to participate in sport for the sake of their health and well-being. This will save the country money. In the high-performance area, we are a cut above the rest and are doing extremely well. Our institute of sport is developing nicely and developing world-class services for our athletes.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Treacy and his team and thank him for his presentation. I still remember watching him win his silver medal in the Olympics. Appropriately, I was in Waterford when watching that event. The fact that I remember an event that happened in 1980 indicates the pleasure sport gives to many people. I thank all those involved in sport who give so much pleasure to the rest of us.

I will begin by asking about the grants to the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU. How does the Irish Sports Council work out what grants those organisations get? Does the grant relate to their ability to raise funds?

Mr. John Treacy:

We were directed by the Minister previously to provide an allocation to the three main field sports because it was a Government initiative and policy to support those three sports. Most of us are aware that approximately 88% of children in primary school participate in sport. The main deliverers of those sports are the three main field sports organisations, the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI, which deliver the programmes in primary schools. We would like to see more happening in terms of physical education in primary school, but that is not the reality. The three main field sports work with the primary schools to get kids involved.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is that where the money goes?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes; much of the money goes to that. I will give the Deputy a flavour of where the money goes shortly, but the big impact is in that area. For every euro we invest with the three main field sports, they put in from €3 to €4 into those programmes. Therefore, the State is getting very good value for its buck. It would be nice to have a physical education system in primary schools which the State supports, but that does not happen. To a large degree, these three field sports and the governing bodies sector move in and provide for sport in schools and outside of them through extra support.

In regard to the GAA, the funding goes to the national grassroots programmes.

They are essentially development officers who are on the ground with the clubs going into the schools and supporting those programmes. There is also hurling development where we work to develop hurling throughout the country, which was an initiative by Government. We also give funding to the Dublin board, which is at €686,000. Again, the GAA itself decides where that money goes. We give it a budget and it comes back to us and tells us how it is going to spend the money.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does Mr. Treacy keep fairly close track of that?

Mr. John Treacy:

We keep extremely close track of that money. We would give the GAA an allocation and it would come back to us, tell us how it is going to spend the money and the funding would then go to it. We would audit the big three field sports every three years. We would send in our auditors, who would verify that the moneys we have given to the sporting organisations were expended for the purposes for which they were given.

The governing bodies themselves would also come in to the council to outline their work, which happens on a regular basis. One of the three field sports would come in on an annual basis or we might have two or three of them in during one year. They would make a presentation to the council in terms of how that money is spent. At the end of the year we would get a full report in terms of what targets were hit and their outline of plans for the following year. We have set very clear objectives and there are very clear measurements which the sporting bodies give back to us.

The committee members have been given a copy of the details. The graph shows the outputs for the State of those three national organisations. I firmly believe the taxpayer gets very good value for money for our investment in those three field sports. Our funding has been reducing over time and is down about 25% since 2007 or so. It is the three main field sports that have taken the brunt of those cuts - in fact, their funding is down 40%. In fairness, they have taken the brunt of the cut, which the other organisations have been spared.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Treacy for that comprehensive reply. The CEO of the FAI has a new contract for €360,000 a year. It seems a very large sum, nearly twice what the Taoiseach is getting. To some extent, is the Irish Sports Council paying that indirectly? Has Mr. Treacy any control over that situation?

Mr. John Treacy:

The salary of the chief executive is a matter for the chief executive and the board of the FAI. We are very careful and clear that any of our funding in not going to any salaries of executives. We are very clear that the funding we give goes to salaries of people involved in the under age participation programme. That is where the policy direction is, namely, to support under age participation. We are not providing any funding in regard to any CEO's salary.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Obviously, it is a position that is important but it seems an inordinate sum. In regard to the FAI, it strikes me as an observer and from my work as a Deputy that, of the three main field sports organisations, it is the least well organised. The GAA and the IRFU strike me as being very well organised but we have a situation where football clubs come and go all the time, certainly if my own constituency is anything to go by. Is there anything Mr. Treacy can do to bring a better and more effective organisation into being in the FAI or is that entirely in its hands? Can he encourage it in that direction?

Mr. John Treacy:

Traditionally, FAI clubs would have been set up in parks around the country and they would not follow the tradition of the other two field sports, the GAA and the IRFU, which would have built facilities around the place. Therefore, the structure is not very strong with regard to having a base and the club structure is a little weaker than the other two main field sports. In saying that, however, without a shadow of a doubt the FAI works relentlessly in socially deprived areas and it gets into areas that a lot of other sporting organisations cannot go near. As I said, it does not have a very strong capital programme around the country-----

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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That is partly why I asked the question. I absolutely accept the point Mr. Treacy is making but it would be even more advantageous to those areas if the FAI had a stronger organisation.

Mr. John Treacy:

The FAI is ambitious about trying to develop that as well. Obviously, it is developing the League of Ireland clubs around the country with capital support from our Department. Some work is going on around that as well.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will move to the area of oversight. Mr. Treacy has given us some idea through his comments about the GAA, FAI and IRFU as to how he monitors their spending of resources. Does this apply across the board? It is probably difficult for the smaller sporting organisations in any case.

Mr. John Treacy:

In recent times, with a reducing budget, the Minister would have asked the council to prioritise the funding for the smaller sports, and we have done that. The council has a budget that it allocates to the NGB sector. We would basically prepare evaluations for the sub-committee of the council that evaluates the grants for those smaller NGBs. We would be looking at what they achieved the previous year, what their targets for that year are, what their strategy is, what organisational capacity they have and where their boards are. We would look at all of those things and those recommendations would then go to the board of the Irish Sports Council. The smaller NGBs would then come back to us with a mid-year report where they would outline to us what they have achieved in the first six months and the progress they are making. If they are falling behind with their progress, they would outline that to us as well. As part of that, before they would get the second moiety of funding from us, they would send in their financial accounts to us and these would be signed off by auditors. If the sums are over €200,000, they would have to state that the money is expended for the purposes for which it was given, so we are very clear around that as well. That process would go on. When we have our financial accounts signed off by the AGMs of these bodies, we would then release the second moiety.

What we also do as part of the process is to carry out audits with those governing bodies of sport. We would carry out up to five audits a year with those smaller NGBs. As part of that, our auditors would go in and would probably look at two areas in particular - corporate governance and the financial procedures that are in place. They would then come back with a series of recommendations. For the most part, the audits are fine but, occasionally, they will come back with recommendations. If there are significant recommendations, the council would set up a liaison process with those governing bodies of sport. A council member, an executive member and I would normally be part of that. When we have our recommendations, we would ask the NGB to come back with how it is going to implement the recommendations. We would work through those with the NGB during the course of a year. When we are satisfied it has worked through all the recommendations of its audit, we would cease the liaison process. That is the process.

Occasionally, if we hear some, I suppose, noise in the system, and we occasionally do hear noise in the system, we would send in the auditors to take a look at what is going on. That would sometimes reveal things and we would then set up a liaison process to work through some of those issues.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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What about the governance code for community and voluntary organisations? Could Mr. Treacy outline roughly what that includes? I understand that some organisations have not signed up to the code. Will the council make that a condition of funding in future?

Mr. John Treacy:

It is a voluntary code. We would see it as a process.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Could Mr. Treacy explain the code?

Mr. John Treacy:

The code is about putting parameters in place. The proposal would consider funding bodies around common governance and best practice parameters around leadership. This would be the leadership of the organisation, the chief executives, the board, the structure of the board and how it is led, the control mechanisms it has in place, the accountability it has in place, the effectiveness of the organisation, and the transparency and the integrity of that organisation. We are just starting the process with the organisations. We will issue a questionnaire to those governing bodies of sport and give them a checklist. They will come back with a self-assessment around how they are doing in terms of the various parameters.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does it cover such matters as protection of children and ensuring that anyone dealing with children is properly qualified and vetted?

Mr. John Treacy:

That is all part of what the council does. The council obviously has a code of ethics and good practice relating to children's sport. We offer advice to the NGBs. We also help in terms of the vetting in respect of the office in Thurles and governing bodies of sport. A lot of work is being done in this area. We work very closely with sports on the code of ethics.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Which organisations funded by the council have not signed up yet to this code?

Mr. John Treacy:

We have just started this. The vast majority of governing bodies have got it around corporate governance. From the audits we have carried out, we would be quite satisfied that many very good procedures are in place. That being said, we are now taking it to another level. What we want to do is make sure that sport leads the way around corporate governance. We are embarking on this process with them. It will probably take two to three years to ensure that all the organisations are fully signed up and can comply with the governance code for the voluntary sector.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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When does Mr. Treacy expect it to become a condition of funding that everybody must sign up?

Mr. John Treacy:

We try to do things on a voluntary basis. We work very closely with the organisations on a daily and weekly basis. It is not a case of putting a gun to people's heads and saying they must do this or that. It is about encouraging them and for the most part, the organisations comply with what we recommend.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have two more matters to ask about and then I will wind up. Mr. Treacy mentioned an involvement with and an encouragement of the development of national trails. Could he tell me a bit about it? The reason I ask this question is because just over a year ago, I had a Private Members' Bill before the Dáil about access to the countryside. There are areas in Ireland where access to the countryside is difficult while it is not so difficult in other areas. Any support we could get on that front from the council would be welcome. What is the council doing to actively promote that aspect? One of my concerns is that some of these national trails end up being partly on roads and rural roads of a secondary nature are often the most dangerous roads in Ireland because of their twists and turns.

Mr. John Treacy:

We are involved with the inspection and development of the trails. We work very closely with local authorities in ensuring that there are safe trails around the country. The issue of access is a thorny one. I do not think anyone is going to solve that overnight but we try to work with and talk to farming organisations to make sure that agreements are in place. It is a case of working in co-operation rather than having rows about it. It involves cajoling people to provide access and people then obviously being responsible when they are on these trails.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Absolutely.

Mr. John Treacy:

Sometimes we run into issues when people are not responsible. It is about talking and working in partnership. Some very good work has been done around this area. We are predominantly involved in developing inspections and putting the trails on a register. We are about to launch a trails strategy, which we would like to see put in place over the next ten years. The council feels that Ireland can certainly lead the way or be a major player in terms of trails development in Europe and the world. We have the finest countryside in the world and we need to exploit it more.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I do not accept that we are leading the way. I think we are very far behind many other countries.

Mr. John Treacy:

I accept that as well.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Quite apart from the benefit to our own people, which is my primary concern, it is also a great money spinner. I will quote one example. The Fife Coastal Path, which has been opened up on the east coast of Scotland, yields something like £28 million per year for the local community and about 500 to 600 jobs are sustained by that. I do not think we are sufficiently hooked into the advantages of that for us.

Mr. John Treacy:

That is exactly why we are doing the trail strategy. It is because we need to have a couple of high-profile trails that would bring people into the country. We really do not have a high-profile trail at the moment so we need to develop it. This strategy is about identifying an area where we can make a high-profile trail that we can develop in the country. That would be a very good starting point. I agree with the Deputy that we are behind and we need to catch up. The potential for Ireland is huge but it will involve investment in trails over the next ten years.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Moving to a very different area, the last thing I wanted to ask about is boxing. Obviously, boxing is our greatest area of success in the Olympics. I note the very good work done by boxing clubs. At the same time, it strikes me, based on my own experience of dealing with boxing clubs, that in many ways some of them might benefit from more administrative competence and getting to a situation where they can have satisfactory premises and so on. I would have worked very closely with the Neilstown Boxing Club. For a long time, it had no premises. Fortunately, it now has premises. Based on my experience, boxing clubs have a tremendous concern and focus on looking after boxers in their care and from what I have seen, they do a fabulous job. However, I think they might benefit from developing greater administrative skills. Perhaps I am generalising too much from the particular but I can see situations where boxing clubs would benefit from that and getting better premises or even appropriate premises where they do not have any. I am not just talking about that boxing club but others.

Mr. John Treacy:

The high performance programme we put in place with the Irish Amateur Boxing Association is second to none. Certainly, when the programme was first established, we used to be invited to Russia to spar with the Russians. That invitation is not coming any more because Ireland is now second in Europe in terms of boxing and they are doing extremely well. The conveyer belt of producing talent continues to happen.

We have world-class coaches, including people like Billy Walsh, who are doing a fantastic job of nurturing young boxers and giving them the expertise they need.

We carried out an audit of boxing about two years ago and some recommendations were made on financial procedures. It has now hired a very good chief executive who is in place and has brought a rigour to financial procedures. It has also hired a new financial officer. At national level, it is beginning to put structures in place. That is the critical factor in investment in the organisation.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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If an organisation at local level feels the need for support, will it be able to get it from the national level, in terms of developing the administrative side? I accept what Mr. Treacy said in terms of coaching, the care of boxers and so on. As someone who is not from that background, I was struck by how well the participants are looked after.

Mr. John Treacy:

Nationally we work with the organisations and it is up to national organisations to work with the clubs. Sometimes the clubs may not get capital funding because of the weak applications they might submit to the Department.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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In that sense, Mr. Treacy is pointing out an issue about which I am concerned.

Mr. John Treacy:

We have sports partnerships at local level which can help boxing clubs to fill out application forms for capital funding. We also have, as we would see it, a very good chief executive leading the organisation. He is available to the clubs and his job is to work with them to upskill them in order that they can apply for capital grants. The help is available to the clubs which require it, in particular at local level. Our local sports partnerships can offer individual help to local clubs.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Treacy.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses and acknowledge all the great work they are doing.

Mr. John Treacy:

I thank the Deputy.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Last weekend was fantastic for anyone who enjoys or participates in sport.

Mr. John Treacy:

Absolutely.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That depends.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Not if one is a Tipperary supporter.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It was still enjoyable. I will ask about one area, Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, and the controversy around it. Unfortunately, I only received the information late last night so I have not had as much time as I would like to go into all the detail or to read about and research the matter. What is the situation?

Mr. John Treacy:

HSI took over responsibility from the Equestrian Federation of Ireland, EFI, in January 2008. It was a Government initiative led by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and our Department to put the breeding and sporting side together. That happened. A legal agreement was signed by HSI and EFI whereby assets, liabilities and staff transferred to HSI. Yesterday we received a letter from the international body which stated that all the responsibilities went to HSI in 2008. There was a clear transfer of undertakings in terms of HSI. That issue has been dealt with as far as we are concerned.

The other issue concerns funding of sporting events.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the letter we received in regard to Dr. Thomas Reed and accusation that funding of €7 million was given to HSI before it was approved.

Mr. John Treacy:

No, that is not the case.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Treacy said HSI took over the responsibility in 2008.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, in 2008.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Irish Sports Council give funding to HSI before that time?

Mr. John Treacy:

We provided some assistance in regard to getting it started and also provided assistance to EFI at that time. It must be remembered that this was a Government initiative, supported by policy and ourselves. The reason it was done was because, at the time, EFI was broken and there was a lot of disquiet within the sport. Bringing the two pieces together was important. We got funding of €1.7 million in 2006 as part of the Estimates process, which was announced by the then Minister John O'Donoghue. That money went into the two organisations in 2007 to ensure there was a smooth transition of responsibility over to HSI. The board of the sports council was fully informed throughout the process. HSI became the governing body for equestrian sports at that time.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Since 2008.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, since 2008. It must be remembered that HSI has 25 affiliates. It is an umbrella body and is recognised as such by the international body. We also examined good practice around the world. The British equestrian body is set up in exactly the same way. All the equestrian bodies were brought under one body, HSI.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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In regard to Dr. Thomas Reed's correspondence, has Mr. Treacy met him?

Mr. John Treacy:

No, I have not. I have just received the letter and I have replied to him. I would be happy to meet him. There is no issue whatsoever.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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How much did HSI receive in 2007?

Mr. John Treacy:

It received €900,000.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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At that time was it a qualifying body?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, we were in the process. We also gave money to EFI that year because it was winding down and there was a transfer of undertakings during 2007. We were in the process of ensuring that happened smoothly, and as part of that we funded both bodies in that year. It was Government policy, supported by us. The new body came into effect in 2008.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What did HSI use the €900,000 for in 2007?

Mr. John Treacy:

I do not have that information with me, but I would be happy to provide it for the Deputy.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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May I suggest it would probably be a good idea to meet Dr. Reed?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, I am happy to do that.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know what part of the letter is accurate or what the issues are. He seems to have expressed many concerns.

Mr. John Treacy:

I shall just draw the Deputy's attention to a letter we received yesterday which was addressed to Dr. Thomas Reed from the international federation. It stated that: "Having reviewed all the documents that are submitted to the international federation in 2007 we confirm the conclusion taken by the international federation in 2007 that Horse Sport Ireland is the legal successor to the Equestrian Federation of Ireland and that HSI is duly recognised by both the Olympic Council and the international federation."

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Treacy.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the funding of some of the smaller horse trial events run by HSI. Camphire is an example. Mr. Treacy is aware of the event, being from west Waterford. It has been built up over the past 14 years and has international status. I understand there are only two other three star courses in Ireland. I understand HSI provides a home international hosting grant of approximately €5,000. I do not know if the figure increased over the past year.

Mr. John Treacy:

It is the same.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Some horse classes receive prize money from the HSI breeding committee. We have been relatively successful over recent Olympic Games.

When I look at the Olympics and at our relative success over recent games, the equestrian area really stands out. For a very significant horse trial event, €5,000 seems like a very small sum. Should the Irish Sports Council consider funding these events, such as the Camphire Horse Trial, directly? I make the case that a more significant sum should be contributed to an event like that, which is an international event, considering the level of success we have seen and the success those who have attended such trials have gone on to achieve internationally, not just in the Olympics but in other world-class events.

Mr. John Treacy:

Without a shadow of a doubt, we have done very well in equestrian sports down through the years. It is a sport that fits with our natural environment, which is why the Government initiated the work in 2007. The unfortunate thing is that our funding has been reducing, which has had a knock-on effect on Horse Sport Ireland whose funding is down perhaps €400,000 over recent years. HSI currently allocates €84,000 to events throughout the country. They are broken down to about eight different events, as part of which Camphire gets €5,000. It is never enough in terms of some of these events which are huge and very important to local economies. It is the nature of things, however, that funding is down. The funding was higher in the past, but it is down now, which is a reality of life. There is huge demand in regard to some of these shows.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have no doubt that what ISC does is very difficult having regard to the number of sports it deals with, a budget that has been decreasing and the competitive aspect of different sports seeking their allocations. I make the case with regard to the equestrian field, however, that for something like this, which has grown over 14 years and become such an international event, €5,000 is a paltry sum. Given the success and the way in which the Irish equestrian area has grown, the ISC should consider how it can help these events a little bit more.

Mr. John Treacy:

Horse Sport Ireland is undertaking a strategic review at the moment and that issue is definitely coming up in terms of international events and having more international shows throughout the country. There are plans afoot to try to support some of these events with more funding.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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When will that be finalised and does ISC have an input into it?

Mr. John Treacy:

We have had an input into it and provided feedback.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Was that to increase the amount?

Mr. John Treacy:

It was not that specific. We were more on a macro level but I know that is part of what HSI is thinking around the strategy. We would like to be in a position to give more money to these shows, which I agree are very important. There are some fine shows throughout the country and nowhere is closer to my own heart than west Waterford. We know they put on world-class events and bring in international riders. Obviously, we will encourage HSI to invest more money in these shows.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I turn to another sport which may be underfunded - golf. Mr. Treacy mentioned in his opening statement the Team Ireland Golf trust programme. I understand it was started in 1999 for young professionals, male and female. Peter Lawrie, Shane Lowry and Michael Hoey have been funded under the scheme. I read somewhere years ago that there are more people registered as golfers than there are in some of the larger sports. At almost 300,000, it is the highest in Europe as far as being registered goes. I look at the amount ISC gives to the Golfing Union of Ireland, which is €375,000, and then at the Team Ireland grant allocation of €139,000 for 2012, which figure I got from the ISC website. Mr. Treacy and I are golfers, and people who hear these young professionals are on tour, even the Challenge Tour, think they are making a boatload of cash. It is not the case and many of them are struggling.

I look at the Ryder Cup and the success of Paul McGinley and Pádraig Harrington, that class of golfer. The enormous success Irish golf has had internationally is amazing. Across America and the world, when one thinks of golf, one thinks of Ireland. When I look at €139,000 for 15 young professionals, it does not seem like a great deal of cash. Should we invest more considering how many people are registered to play golf, the degree of effort being put into young golfers and clubs, and the success they are achieving? In the area Mr. Treacy and I come from we have Gary Hurley and Seamus Power from West Waterford Golf Club. I know Mr. Treacy is a member of Dungarvan Golf Club, but not if he is a member of West Waterford.

Mr. John Treacy:

I am.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is all around us. That is the case I make. Does ISC provide a block grant to GUI which then decides how much it allocates for the coaching of young golfers or does ISC have a hand in deciding how much young golfers get for coaching? Does ISC separate that out?

Mr. John Treacy:

I am happy to answer those questions. The number of golf club members has been falling. From our sports monitor yesterday, it was probably one of the sports that was in the limelight due to reducing memberships which people can no longer afford. It is the first thing to go. The golfing unions have a challenge to ensure they become relevant to their clubs and support the clubs to attract members. They are looking at that through the golf federation.

There are a number of pieces to our support for the golfing unions. We give approximately €200,000 to the governing body of the sport for core activities. We provide approximately €375,000 on the high performance side, which is for our amateur players. It is around putting high performance coaches in place and making sure training camps are available. They have availed of Carton House, where there are fantastic facilities. They have a great relationship there. They have a high performance environment there. It is also about putting coaches with those golfers and ensuring they are exposed to international competition at the appropriate age.

This is another organisation that has been hugely successful. The Rory McIlroys and Graeme McDowells of this world, who were out last week in the Ryder Cup, are a product of the GUI and its coaching systems, the coaches on the ground and the club coaches. Our amateur golfers recently won a silver medal at the European championship. They are very successful at what they do. They have criteria in place around funding the amateur players on the Irish teams which we have approved. The maximum grant they can give the amateurs, however, is €5,000. When players decide they are going to go professional, we have the golf trusts we established.

We gave approximately €120,000 to that. Fáilte Ireland put in about another €30,000, and we also got a small amount of funding in the past from the commercial sector. In essence, we had about €180,000 or €200,000 to spend on young aspiring golfers, and those young aspiring golfers have to meet criteria before they are funded. It is not a case of someone turning 18 years of age and saying that they are going to be a professional. They need to meet criteria.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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How many applications would the Irish Sports Council have got, say, in 2012, which is the list I read?

Mr. John Treacy:

By and large, the criteria will outline to the young golfer whether they should apply. They should have won a major, be recommended by the governing body of sport or have accumulated points. We have to be careful because we do not want young golfers turning professional too early. If they do it at the appropriate age, the golf trust kicks in.

In the past the Irish Sports Council administered that but in the past year that transferred to the Golfing Union of Ireland, GUI, because we are clear that the people who know the sport best are those in the governing bodies of sport. We have a council representative who sits on that committee, and it allocates the money to the aspiring professionals. It is a good initiative, with the Golfing Union of Ireland taking responsibility. Similar to what is happening on our carding around athletics and swimming, it is allocating funding directly to those athletes. We will transfer more responsibility to the governing bodies of sport when they are ready to take that responsibility. The GUI is a well-run organisation, and it is ready now for that responsibility.

Without that €20,000, and I have heard this from people like Peter Lawrie, a person would not be able to turn professional because it meets their expenses when they go on tour. It might cover the cost of flights or hotels. When they try to turn professional and they are on the challenge tour or whatever they are on, it is a difficult journey but that funding goes a long way.

Similarly, we have supported women who have turned professional, and there is even less money for them. I have met international golfers from other countries and they were singing the praises of the Irish Sports Council for putting like that in place for young female golfers.

There is a lot done but more to do. I agree with the Deputy that this is a sport in which we can excel on the world stage, and we have excelled. We must make sure that we continue that and that we have the assistance in place to support aspiring golfers who have the talent to perform on the world stage. We must make sure that nothing gets in their way.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Treacy for his response. The transferring of decision-making to an organisation like the GUI is interesting. It shows a lot of confidence in the systems of the GUI but also from the standpoint of Mr. Treacy's agency. Does he have any other examples of that? Is that the only one it has done?

Mr. John Treacy:

We have two people on that committee from the council. We have a board member, Bernard Allen, who sits on that and an executive member as well. We keep a close watching brief on it. With the transfer of responsibility for direct funding to the athletes, we have a transition, as part of the London debrief, to athletics and to swimming. We anticipate that we will be transferring that into the Paralympics also in the next year. If we feel the governing bodies are fit for purpose and ready to take up their responsibility, have good performance directors who can put plans in place and clear criteria so the athletes know what they have to do to get funding, and we have the confidence in the organisation, we will transfer that responsibility because no one knows these sports better than the sporting organisations themselves.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have a final question, and I am not trying to catch Mr. Treacy out. There is the Alps Tour, the Challenge Tour and there may be others. Are there any people who applied but did not get the grant who ended up being successful on either the Challenge Tour or the Alps Tour? Seamus Power is playing on the E Golf Tour-----

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, in the United States, and he got support.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I know that he received support. Did people slip through the net in the sense that they did not get the grant and actually succeeded?

Mr. John Treacy:

I am not quite sure of that. I do not think so, to be honest.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Fair enough.

Mr. John Treacy:

We have supported people for a long period of time on that. It is not like the other sports where one can tell after three or four years whether they will make it on the world stage. Sometimes it can be five, six or seven years with golfers, and we have stood by many of the golfers around that as well.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Treacy.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I welcome the members of the delegation and congratulate them on the good work that has been done. Like Deputy Dowds, I stayed up until 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. to watch him winning that famous silver medal in Los Angeles. It was a high point at that time.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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He won a few gold medals in his time as well.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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That marathon seemed to go on forever.

I would like to mention three issues. I come back to the one raised by Deputy Dowds on the GAA, the IRFU and the FAI. From the figures presented, I note that approximately 20% of the organisation's budget is spent on those three big operations. What is the basis of the allocation? They are allocated roughly €2.5 million, €2.7 million and €2.8 million. There is a world of difference between each of those organisations. The GAA is a purely domestic organisation. The other two are international as well as domestic. Is the allocation made on the basis of need, size or achievement? It seems the GAA is a very profitable organisation. The State has already made a massive grant investment in the region of €200 million for the Croke Park stadium development, which Kieran Mulvey would well know from his engagement there and the good work he did trying to sort out the Garth Brooks concerts and the relationship between the local people and the GAA. This is now a major commercial facility. It is a limited company that brings in a huge amount of money every year. Regardless of whether the books of the GAA are available to the Irish Sports Council when the funding is made available, that company, having paid off all the debt on that facility, will now be a money-making and commercial entity to a large degree.

Focusing on the other area, soccer clubs around the country are operating on a shoestring, by and large. They need a restructuring to a considerable degree because of the manner in which they spring up around the place and then disappear in some areas as quickly as they appeared. Rugby can get massive sponsorship, as is the case with the GAA to a degree. There is a world of difference between the domestic and the international dimensions and the cohort of people who play those games. The cohort who play rugby is not the same as the cohort who play soccer. The game played exclusively in my constituency in Dublin Central is soccer. There is virtually no GAA games or rugby played. There is a need factor in that respect. How is that need factor, in terms of a people profile, built into the equation when the allocations are made?

Mr. John Treacy:

I might argue that we are not giving them enough.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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We could say that about all sports. There is no doubt about that, but we are talking about 20% of the overall allocation.

Mr. John Treacy:

In regard tot he GAA, no organisation does more work in the primary and secondary schools around the country than the GAA. It does tremendous work. The State owes it a huge degree of gratitude for the work it does on the ground.

We do not really have a PE system in primary schools. We should have PE in schools for an hour a day but that is not the case at present. The sporting bodies step into that vacuum, ensuring that children get plenty of exercise. These team sports play an important role in primary schools, teaching children the basics of these sports. All three sports have different strengths: the GAA excels around the country in rural areas and in primary schools; the FAI excels in getting children in the inner city and in disadvantaged communities involved, and the IRFU excels in another sphere, with secondary school children.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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We agree with all of what Mr. Treacy has said. That goes without saying. I was asking if the Sports Council has some criteria based on need in terms of the background of the people involved in a particular sport. I would extend that to boxing as well. Boxing is the other sport which is played by the Travelling community and people from disadvantaged backgrounds more than anywhere else, yet it does not get the same amount of funding as the big three. In terms of success at international competitions, we won five medals in the Olympics, four of which were for boxing. Therefore, on an international stage where we are competing with world athletes, 80% of our medal haul comes from boxing, as well as the fact that it is strongest in areas where there is obvious need because of the background of many of those involved in the sport.

Mr. John Treacy:

The Sports Council looks at every organisation independently on the basis of the applications they submit to us. We do not look at need, we look at what their plans are. The State is saying that we will support the three main field sports and that is what the Sports Council does.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I suggest that if the Sports Council does not already look at need that it might include it as a criterion for the future. Certainly, it would seem to be a very valid point.

Mr. John Treacy:

We will take that on board.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

An important point in relation to boxing, which we have addressed with the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, is the fact that there is a particular need in the communities from which our boxers come.

I agree with the Deputy about the FAI. I see this through my involvement with certain clubs in Dublin. They are supplying a tremendous social need and filling a social gap, particularly in what are euphemistically called working-class areas of the inner cities, and indeed the outer cities. They provide twilight games in such areas, in which the Garda has also been involved, and they run schoolboy leagues between the hours of four and six, so that the young people are minded. I think of one particular club which is exemplary, and I am involved in it to some extent myself - Cherry Orchard. They do tremendous work, which is replicated in other towns, and I agree with the Deputy that there is a social issue that we must address in the promotion of sports. The catch-all model does not always work; we must also balance the commitments between the organisations to some degree because they represent different constituencies. The GAA represents three of our national games specifically, but the Deputy is right that boxing, the FAI and the IRFU, which is at the other end of the scale, are extending around the country as well. We must examine this issue in terms of the criteria we apply.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Mulvey for his remarks and I am glad that need may now become a criterion in assessments in the future.

In relation to some of the elite sports, I note that cycling has increased since 2010 by 202%, which is enormous. I am sure it has nothing to do with our eminent Taoiseach, who has also highlighted this sport, but a couple of elite sportspeople recently signed for the Sky team in cycling and are also in receipt of funding from the Sports Council. I would have thought that once that level of achievement was reached, the funding would no longer be necessary.

Mr. John Treacy:

I believe that anyone who is on the Sky team is not being funded anymore. They might have been funded on the way up as part of the programmes but they are no longer funded.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Treacy for his clarification.

On a related matter, to what extent can the Sports Council deal with the current situation of the former national headquarters of the soccer world in Ireland, Dalymount, which, although the witnesses might not be aware of the details, is considerably in debt? It is considering a merger between Bohemians and Shelbourne. The year 2020 is the anniversary of the foundation of the League of Ireland, but that it require a certain amount of capital funding to achieve its independence. Is that the sort of issue the Sports Council can engage on?

Mr. John Treacy:

That is more a question for Mr. Morgan.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Since the new Minister was appointed, he has been meeting with the various organisations. One of those was the FAI and the FAI chief executive has raised the issue of Dalymount with him, so we are expecting a proposal from the FAI on this issue.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Mr. Morgan is saying that the Department has the issue well in hand.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I am aware of it.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Something in the region of €3 million would be required to secure the future of the stadium and of those two League of Ireland clubs. It would be of enormous benefit because Dalymount was the headquarters of the FAI, and the Aviva stadium-----

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

We are very much aware of the importance of Dalymount. However, Deputy Costello may have read that the chief executive said yesterday that League of Ireland clubs were "a problem child," and we cannot have a queue of problem children lining up for funding.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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A joint location for these two big clubs would get rid of some of the problem; at least two of the problem children would be dealt with.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I understand.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other constituency matters?

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I did not spend as much time on the constituency as my predecessor.

Regarding anti-doping, the Sports Council spends about €1 million per annum on this area and it was stated that the council engaged 868 tests in the past year. It seems amazing that out of 868 tests conducted under the national testing programme, only three anti-doping violations were recorded. On an international basis, and from anything one might read about the area, that seems an incredibly low figure. There seems to be far higher ethical standards among the Irish athletic community than seems to be the case internationally. I wonder whether this is related to the fact that the testing takes place during competition but there is no out-of-competition testing. It is much easier to avoid detection when the test is taking place, but random testing outside of competition times is more effective. To what extent is the council dealing with that side of the equation? We have very high performance athletes at both amateur and international level and it seems that the level of testing that results in a violation occurring would not be anywhere near any international standards. Are we doing the job in the most effective manner possible?

Mr. John Treacy:

We carry out on a yearly basis about 431 out-of-competition tests. The balance is on the out-of-competition testing ourselves.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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There were 431 out-of-competition tests.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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The out-of-competition testing is 50%.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes. On a percentage basis, more than 50% of our testing is out-of-competition testing. The Deputy is correct that it is by far the most effective type of anti-doping testing. We also carry out blood tests out of competition. Our testing programme is rigorous. We have an advantage in that Ireland is a small country as it is more difficult to hide. As part of the programme, the athletes have to give us their whereabouts. We have an hour a day when we know we can test these athletes and we use that information.

On an international comparison, our level of testing is around 3%. We funded some research last year that helped uncover some international positive tests in the past. We are at the cutting edge and work very closely with the World Anti-Doping Agency. Our staff on the anti-doping side are highly regarded. Dr. Una May is highly regarded on the international scene and would have been involved in previous Olympic games and world championships for the World Anti-Doping Agency. We ensure the balance is more towards out-of-competition testing because, as the Deputy rightly said, it is more effective.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Can I take it from those remarks that out-of-competition testing has been increased? Can I take also that the proportion will be increased again?

Mr. John Treacy:

We are increasing it all the time. We do more out-of-competition testing. We can forward the exact percentages to the committee. We do well over 50% in terms of out-of-competition testing.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Treacy. I will not delay on my last point. I note the merger between the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority is taking place and that the new body will be Sport Ireland. Can Mr. Treacy provide some information on the costs, consultants and location, and how it ties in with the lease on the Irish Sports Council's premises?

Mr. John Treacy:

This is a Government initiative to merge the two State sporting bodies; one is for the development of the campus site and the other is the Irish Sports Council which is responsible for sports development. Currently, we have a lease through the OPW in the area of Blanchardstown which costs about €180,000 per year. In terms of the campus, there are plans afoot to locate the new agency in Abbotstown House but money has to be found for it. As the cost will be about €5 million, I think we will be waiting for a while. I do not anticipate any additional costs in terms of moving office as we are all in the same area. It is a purely administrative type merger. As there will be one board and one chief executive in place, there will be savings in that area. The legislation outlines the various functions. We are happy that all the functions of the Irish Sports Council are being retained. A sub-committee will be set up by the council to deal with coaching, high performance and anti-doping and there will be the campus development. I do not know if there will be huge cost savings as the merger is administrative more than anything else. I do not know if my chairman, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, wants to say anything on it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long more is left on the lease at €180,000 per year?

Mr. John Treacy:

The lease is held by the OPW.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long has it to run?

Ms June Menton:

While it is a long lease, we only have a site letter from the OPW

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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At €180,000 per annum?

Mr. John Treacy:

It is a sub-lease.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a sub-lease from the OPW.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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So it reverts to the OPW. How long is left in the lease?

Ms June Menton:

I will have to come back to the committee with that information.

Mr. John Treacy:

I would anticipate that we will not be moving anywhere any time soon.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

From the departmental side, the background to the merger legislation arises from Government policy in relation to quangos or State agencies and the reduction of those. That is where the idea for merging the two organisations came from. There will not be any massive savings on it. Mr. Treacy has already indicated that the Irish Sports Council has fewer than 40 staff and campus staff number about 4.2 The savings means there will be a reduction in the board but there will not be any staff losses. As Mr. Treacy said, it is an administrative process with the functions of the two organisations being brought together.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many years remain on the lease?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

My recollection from my own time in Abbotstown is that there are over 30 years left on that lease.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Some 30 years?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I am not certain of that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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With whom is the lease?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

The lease is with the OPW.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that but it has the property leased from-----

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

It would have the property re-leased from a letting agent.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who owns the property?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I do not know who owns the property. When the National Sports Campus Development Authority was in the same building as the Irish Sports Council, essentially we had a letter of agreement with the OPW in respect of the lease. In turn, it would have let the property from a local letting agent.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can we find out who owns it, out of interest, and the exact date on which the lease expires?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Absolutely.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And the €5 million was for-----

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

This is a proposal in relation to Abbotstown House which is a heritage building and a listed building on the campus site and, therefore, must be maintained and will fall to the responsibility of Sport Ireland in the future. There is a proposal that the new organisation, in other words, the amalgam of the two bodies, would be located in Abbotstown House. The likely cost of that would be in the region of €5 million. That is a long-term plan if money becomes available.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not making little of the need to restore the house and to keep it right, and neither am I making it the policy of mergers. When there is a €5 million price tag on a merger, if it were to go ahead to the extent of taking charge of the house, which it probably will have to do, it is not a very cost-effective way of managing a merger.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

It really has nothing to do with the merger.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It means giving up a lease from the OPW at €180,000 per year. That leaves the OPW with a headache because it has to re-lease the building.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Absolutely. That is why it is a long term project. This has nothing to do-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is still a long-term project. It will still cost money in the long term, one way or the other.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

If it ever happens.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do you all sit down together to discuss these things?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The OPW, the Department and the bodies involved?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

The Irish Sports Council and the campus authority.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who represents the taxpayer?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I suppose the taxpayer is represented by the Department.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Please keep an eye on them.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Absolutely. I would emphasise that there are other priorities for the campus rather than restoring Abbotstown House. What we have done is that we have secured it. The OPW has put a new roof on it and done the windows so that the building is protected. That discharges the responsibility. The house can be used for something else down the line, not necessarily as the new headquarters.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Shane Ross.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Treacy said at the beginning that the Irish Sports Council was directed by Government to give grants to various bodies. How was that conveyed?

Mr. John Treacy:

We would normally get our budget from the Minister and then meet the Minister and the Department and be given his policy priorities.

Last year, they would have prioritised funding for the smaller organisations and national governing bodies, NGBs, of sport. The women in sport funding and the sport for older people programme would have been prioritised. We give over €600,000 to the sport for older people programme. We would be given a policy direction on that basis and prepare our plans along those lines.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Would the council give them out? What are the figures?

Mr. John Treacy:

If we were given a policy direction to maintain women in sport, we would try to keep that at the same level.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The same as what?

Mr. John Treacy:

The same level as the previous year. We follow policy direction from the Government.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does it provide figures?

Mr. John Treacy:

In the past we would have got figures from the Department regarding funded bodies. It is now more of a policy direction than direct figures.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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So figures would have been provided. It would have directed that a certain amount would be given to certain bodies.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, that would have happened in the past.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about now?

Mr. John Treacy:

Now it is more of a policy direction.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Does it not amount to the same thing?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

With regard to the policy direction, we are not told to give a specific figure. In the context of the most recent discussions last year on the budget, we were facing the case where a succession of cuts were coming in. The Ministers were able to retrieve money from other allocations within the Department so we came out with approximately €43 million. There was an indication of what the council was to do; for example, that the women in sport and older person in sport programmes would be protected, along with smaller NGBs. We were not told a precise figure but it was indicated that we should try to keep things at the levels from last year. We had an outline cut with the budget we had, and we had to decide whether to hit the bigger organisations for 10% or smaller organisations for 5%. After discussion with the Minister, we would get a certain policy direction and reallocate the money. The budget decisions are ours.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the detail within certain parameters.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Yes. We would never be told to give a body a certain amount.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the council was told to prioritise a body, the funding would not be reduced.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

No.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With which Minister or Minister of State does the council deal?

Mr. John Treacy:

We deal with both the Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, and the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

We dealt with both Ministers at regular quarterly meetings. After every board meeting I would brief both the Minister and the Minister of State by way of correspondence on the policy decisions made by the board and any significant financial decisions made.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Forgive me if I am completely ignorant about this but does the council have discretion over a certain amount of these grants? Is that correct?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

We have discretion over the totality of the budget.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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How is that decided? What is the procedure?

Mr. John Treacy:

The management team would receive plans from various managers. I would sit down with the financial director and, to a large degree, we would make a decision on where the money would be best spent. We would then bring the matter to our board for approval, with the board of the council approving the budget.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The council and the board are the same thing.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes. It would approve the budget and be responsible for it. If we are making allocations, that goes to various sub-committees of the Irish Sports Council in order to make recommendations.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Does the board ever change any of the allocations?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

It has varied them from time to time, although only marginally. With every financial issue in front of the board for the funding of any NGB or programme, there is a separate discussion and I request a proposer and seconder after its discussion. Every financial item is put to the board separately for approval.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is every financial item. Does it include every grant?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Yes. We are involved with 107 organisations in total, which includes NGBs. In practice, we put to the board specifically every item of expenditure.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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How big is the board?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

There are ten people, along with the chairperson. There are currently three vacancies.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is that not bigger than it is meant to be? Are boards not meant to be limited to nine people now?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

It is down to nine people in practice.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are ten people and the chairperson.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

The number arises from the previous sports council Act from 1999. There are conditions attaching to the board regarding its size, with a quota for the female gender.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is that?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

There should be no fewer than four on the board.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no sub-committee of the board to consider the grants.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

There are two sub-committees that would potentially consider the grants. There is the NGB committee, which evaluates applications and recommendations of the executive, and the high-performance committee also has an input in so far as NGBs would get money for the athletes who compete in international competitions.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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How are those committees selected?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

They are selected by the board.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Who is on them?

Mr. John Treacy:

The NGB committee is chaired by Mr. Bernard Allen and it also has Mr. John Maughan. There are various committees.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Who else is on it?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

We are waiting on vacancies to be filled as we have just had a transition period. Three members of our board have stood down because of the effluxion of office last month.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who was on it?

Mr. John Treacy:

They were just two members on it last time.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witness mentioned a John. Who was that?

Mr. John Treacy:

Mr. John Maughan.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who is he?

Mr. John Treacy:

He was a GAA player and quite a famous footballer.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Was he a Fine Gael Deputy?

Mr. John Treacy:

No, he was a Gaelic footballer.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

The Deputy is thinking of Deputy John O'Mahony.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am. Who is on the other sub-committee?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

It is chaired by Mr. Liam Sheedy.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Who else is on it?

Mr. John Treacy:

He is the council representative on the high-performance committee. He chairs that. It also has people from Sport Northern Ireland and independent people.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Who are they?

Mr. John Treacy:

I can provide the list of people on the high-performance committee. It includes Mr. Sean Ogle from Northern Ireland and Ms Caroline Curley from Tipperary, who is involved with the development of sports medicine and related issues. We also have the race walker from Cork, although his name escapes me. He is a former athlete. We have a good array of people on that sub-committee.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They make recommendations.

Mr. John Treacy:

They make recommendations to the council.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I notice there are "related party" transactions in the annual report. What happens when they come before the board?

Mr. John Treacy:

Will the Deputy clarify what he is asking?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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In the annual report there is mention of "related party transactions". I believe these are grants going to bodies associated with board members.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, of course. The people in question would leave the board when there is any conflict of interest. Before a meeting, members would be asked if there is a potential conflict of interest. Such a conflict would be declared at that point and it is recorded. When an item arises, such people would leave the room.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Okay, that is fine. There are some other issues. There has been quite a bit of spending on public relations.

Mr. John Treacy:

It is not that much.

All our money around public relations relates to support for the governing bodies of sport.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that support for governing bodies?

Mr. John Treacy:

The governing bodies of sport. We do two pieces. With The Irish Times we do an end of year women in sport awards which costs about €50,000. That acknowledges many of the smaller organisations and acknowledges the women in those organisations. We also provide €110,000 to RTE which is broken up in terms of support for the end of the year awards on television plus ensuring RTE covers some of the minority sports at international events. There is a piece of work that goes into that as well. We are all the time in the business of trying to highlight some of the smaller sports that may not necessarily ever be covered by television. We make sure they are represented. We also use that money to send photographers to international events to ensure pictures appear in the sports pages. We are all the time trying to ensure smaller organisations are highlighted and their athletes get on the front pages and on television.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Does the council use a public relations firm?

Mr. John Treacy:

No. We use Bill O'Herlihy for press releases but it has no PR element.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a final question. Does the council have an input into who sits on its board?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

No.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

None.

Mr. John Treacy:

That is a matter for the Minister.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does he consult either of the witnesses?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

No.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. I thank the witnesses.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In regard to the last question, there are three vacancies on the board. Is that correct?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Currently, because at the previous meeting of the council, three members stepped down as their term of office had ceased.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that the council does not have an input. Does it make a suggestion to the Minister as to who might be suitable? If a board is made up of various strengths, does the council ask for a particular------

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, asked me in a recent conversation what sports are represented on the board and I would have indicated what sports are represented and what are not.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He would look at the ones that are not.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Yes. Of the three people who are standing down, one is from the Special Olympics, the other lady is from the Olympic Council of Ireland and the third person, who is a national author, represented Badminton Ireland, that is to say, he or she did not represent it as such but was from that background.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they recent vacancies?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

At the previous board meeting in September.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long will it take to fill the vacancies?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

I do not know if the Minister is going to fill them. He has not given us an indication. We are now on Committee Stage of the new Sport Ireland Bill so if they were appointed, it would only be for two months. The Minister has not made any-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What payment does each member get on the board?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

It is €6,000.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will go back to the questions that were asked about Horse Sport Ireland. I know Deputy Collins put a question to Mr. Treacy on Dr. Reed's letter. Alongside Dr. Reed's letter there was a sort of report and commentary on the points he was making. Deputy Collins asked whether the council would meet him, which is fine. If I read the letter coldly, I would be concerned about the issues that Dr. Reed raised, particularly the details he gave in terms of his view on the legislation. I know it is only his view and there is the other side of it. He also asked various questions on the role HSI has or should have or what he perceives it should have. Mr. Treacy said in his reply that he replied to Dr. Reed's letter.

Mr. John Treacy:

I replied to his first letter and I have got one in just this week as well that I have not replied to yet. I think that is the first letter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I refer to correspondence we received on 1 July.

Mr. John Treacy:

I replied to that letter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Treacy reply to each of the points raised by Dr. Reed?

Mr. John Treacy:

I am not quite sure if I replied to each one of the issues raised by him but I gave him a reply to the letter-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Mr. John Treacy:

-----and I have copied this committee with that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In response to the correspondence we received as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, I ask that Mr. Treacy might give us, or each member, a reply to all the issues raised by Dr. Reed in order that we can understand the other side relative to each of the points he has raised.

Mr. John Treacy:

I would be happy to do that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you. Let us turn to the funding of Horse Sport Ireland. How much does HSI get directly from the council?

Mr. John Treacy:

I will get the figure.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the council got it for the past few years?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us say for 2011 to 2014, inclusive. What about the sum of €782,000?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, HSI got that sum as core funding.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that in 2013?

Mr. John Treacy:

It would have got a block in regard to high performance as well. HSI received €1.273 million in total this year. It received €500,000 for high performance and €773,000 for core.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What did it get in 2013 in terms of its block?

Mr. John Treacy:

It received €1.3 million in total in 2013.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does it get funding from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, it gets some funding on the breeding side from the Department.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How much?

Mr. John Treacy:

We only deal with the sporting side so that would be accounted for separately by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Morgan know?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I do not but we could find out for the Chairman, if he so wishes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport give it direct grants?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

No, we do not give it any direct grants. All our funding for national government bodies goes through the Irish Sports Council.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

According to a letter of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, HSI is in receipt of an annual grant from the Department. The allocation in 2014 was €1.2 million. Is that right? That amounts to €2.4 million not counting-----

Mr. John Treacy:

I have the information. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's grant is €1.2 million.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there two lots of funding?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, HSI gets two streams.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does it get one from the council?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did it amount to €1.27 million in 2014?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine gives €1.2 million again.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

HSI gets nothing directly from Mr. Morgan's Department, so that is €2.4 million.

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

HSI has a studbook type of business.

Mr. John Treacy:

That is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, not ourselves. The Department deals with the breeding side of the sport.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That brings me to the question of governance. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine gives HSI money. HSI makes money in its own right, as a business, on studbook transactions. What accounts does the council see?

Mr. John Treacy:

We see its financial accounts.

Ms June Menton:

We see its financial accounts. HSI divides its accounts according to breeding, sporting, coaching, high performance, carriage driving and skills net. It divides up its accounts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does the council see its accounts?

Ms June Menton:

Yes, I see its accounts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms Menton sees its accounts, can she tell us the figure for HSI's turnover in terms of studbook transactions or any other transactions? What is its income for 2014?

Ms June Menton:

I do not have the 2014 figure here in front of me.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Give me a figure for some year.

Ms June Menton:

I have the 2012 figure which shows HSI had a total income of €5 million.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has a business in what it does, which generates €5 million. It then has an income from the Irish Sports Council.

Ms June Menton:

I apologise. The €5 million includes all of the grants.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Its total income is €5 million.

Ms June Menton:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One could say €2.5 million is from the taxpayer with €2.5 million from the studbook transactions. This is the €5 million.

Mr. John Treacy:

It might not necessarily be. It could have other income streams such as sponsorship.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, one would know this from the accounts.

Ms June Menton:

I do not have the actual accounts. I just have a summary spreadsheet from the accounts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, Ms Menton gets the actual accounts.

Ms June Menton:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Ms Menton hazard a guess as to roughly how much it might raise through any other income stream?

Ms June Menton:

I can get the information for the Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would it be €1 million?

Ms June Menton:

I will have to come back to the Chairman on this.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms Menton would. The organisation has €5 million plus.

Ms June Menton:

It is €5 million in total.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, €5 million plus sponsorship if there is-----

Ms June Menton:

No, the €5 million is inclusive of everything. It is the total income.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Its total income is €5 million.

Ms June Menton:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Regardless of where it comes from, the total is €5 million.

Ms June Menton:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It then allocates money. It has a €5 million turnover. How many people are on the board?

Ms June Menton:

I do not know.

Mr. John Treacy:

We have the list.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many are on it?

Mr. John Treacy:

We have a briefing document with lists of all the people.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want the number of people on the board, whether there are any vacancies on the board and how much board members-----

Mr. John Treacy:

There are 19 directors.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There are 19 directors on Horse Sport Ireland. How much do they get?

Mr. John Treacy:

How much do they get?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Do they get a fee as directors? Do they get any payment? Do they get expenses?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

They do not receive director's fees. They give of their time voluntarily.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. What about the chairman?

Mr. John Treacy:

Professor Pat Wall from UCD.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that position also voluntary?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

The appointment was made by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What does it amount to?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

The appointment to the chair is made by two Ministers.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They do it in consultation.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that-----

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

It is unusual.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does he carry out the work in a voluntary capacity?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

He does, yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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To go back to how HSI allocates its money, I read an article this year about how the world equestrian games became an issue and was written about in various newspapers regarding attempts to stage the event in Ireland. Discussion took place about sponsorship of a considerable amount of US dollars. There were also discussions on support for the event within Ireland. It did not take off and did not happen. Why? It was a huge world event. I thought this was the idea of the Irish Sports Council and Horse Sport Ireland.

Mr. John Treacy:

Are we speaking about hosting the world equestrian games?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. John Treacy:

The cost of hosting the event is in excess of €20 million. It is a huge undertaking. The income stream for the country from it is not that strong. It was considered in the past. It was awarded to Ireland in the past and Ireland had to hand it back because we could not stage it at the time.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Pearse Lyons spoke about a sponsorship package covering the total cost of the event. The cost of hosting the event was stated to be $25 million, most of which would have been put up by a company sponsor. Efforts were made locally, according to the article, by interested parties who would like to see this huge event fill hotels and guest houses, but nothing happened. Why was this? The Irish Sports Council stated it spent money promoting all this. This event came knocking on Ireland's door and we did not take it.

Mr. John Treacy:

I remember this case. It was in the infancy of Horse Sport Ireland, when it was being established. It was probably not a priority for it at the time because it was trying to put its administrative structures in place. The first thing that would need to be done is a feasibility study on the cost-benefit analysis of the event, but it never got to this point. It would mean a huge cost to the State. When Ireland tried to host it previously, the numbers did not match up.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did Horse Sport Ireland ask the Irish Sports Council about this event? I am interested in this because of the spin-off it would have had for small businesses and many others. Did Horse Sport Ireland consult the Irish Sports Council? The newspapers state an RTE interview was the first time Pearse Lyons made it known publicly he was willing to underwrite the entire event. Was the Department involved in it?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

Yes, the Department was involved. Horse Sport Ireland approached the then Minister, Martin Cullen, with this proposal. It was a sports tourism event so it was handled by the tourism side of the Department. As I understand it, the figures did not stack up. Mr. Treacy referred to the previous experience when the event was awarded to Ireland and we had to pull out because of the costs.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who stacked up the figures?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

It might have been Mazars.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If the guy was giving $25 million-----

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I certainly did not see the $25 million.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe you did not because the event was not held here. I am interested in how the Irish Sports Council promotes itself and what went on at the time. Perhaps Mr. Morgan might give an explanation in response to this. He can come back to us after the meeting. It was reported as being true in the newspapers that interested parties in the horse business in Ireland were willing to assist in the development of this project. Why did the State not play its part?

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I will speak to my tourism colleagues and will report back to the committee.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

For information, the world equestrian games were held in Normandy this year. From what I heard, I understood the French government and regional authority put up approximately €70 million to host the games.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That may be the case, but I am referring to what I have read in the newspapers. I appreciate paper never refuses ink, but perhaps the Department might use its pen to describe to me what happened at the time. It is important the taxpayer and the hospitality sector understand if there is another story to this. It seems to be a missed opportunity but I am willing to be convinced otherwise if Mr. Morgan tells me so.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I am happy to do so.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many people are employed directly by Horse Sport Ireland?

Ms June Menton:

I can find out and provide the Chairman with the figures.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They are in the accounts.

Ms June Menton:

I do not have the financial statements with me. I only have an extract.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Menton get the accounts every year? What is the last set of accounts she received?

Ms June Menton:

The 2013 accounts, but I do not have them here in front of me. I have no problem providing the Chairman with the information afterwards.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms Menton would, please.

Ms June Menton:

No problem.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I ask, and I will not go into detail, is that I have e-mails regarding a promoter of international horse events of one kind and another and I am not impressed by the length of time it took for somebody in Horse Sport Ireland, which is in receipt of a €5 million turnover, to reply.

That Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, which is in receipt of funding of €5 million per annum, will not engage with a company engaged in the promotion of the industry and associated events in this country is unacceptable. We are speaking in this regard about a company that is promoting Ireland and Irish showjumping and associated events which attract international visitors and competitors. It appears to me from the correspondence I have been given that it receives little support or acknowledgement from Horse Sport Ireland. That it takes three weeks or longer to get a response from that organisation to basic questions is unacceptable. Some of the questions relate to decisions taken around funding. Is it the policy of Horse Sport Ireland to set out in a transparent manner how its decisions relevant to funding are reached?

Mr. John Treacy:

Its criteria for the hosting of international events are set out in the documentation before me. They include the star rating of the international event, the number of international athletes who participated in the previous year, the ranking levels of international riders, the level of participation of Irish riders, the strategic importance of the events, and innovation and sustainability. Also stated is that organisers may be required to submit a copy of event accounts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are speaking about a company, which is a promoter of international events, seeking clarification by way of e-mail from Horse Sport Ireland on prize funds of €25,000 and €180,000 and related issues concerning the organisation of an event. The e-mail was sent on 18 February. I consider this to be important for Ireland, the taxpayer and the SME sector. That a reply was not issued until 12 March does not show a great deal of interest in the promotion of an international event. It took another week to get a reply to a further e-mail sent on 7 March regarding criteria for the grants, which response was incomplete. To more direct questioning on 27 March about the irregularities in Showjumping Ireland's annual accounts and referencing previous e-mails, no answer is given. to further correspondence regarding receipt of hard copies of decisions made, no reply is given. This goes on and on.

This is the type of service being provided by Horse Sport Ireland, which receives at least half of its €5 million per annum in funding from the taxpayer, is giving to a company in the industry trying to promote Ireland and showjumping and related events. Surely, as part of the governance procedures of the Irish Sports Council, it should take up this issue with Horse Sport Ireland.

Mr. John Treacy:

We will follow up with HSI on the matter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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More needs to be done. I think Horse Sport Ireland needs to show respect for the investors in Ireland that are trying to make things happen. It should appreciate that people put their own money into these events. The dead hand of bureaucracy is not helpful to business. To create a balance of understanding in all this, will Mr. Treacy make further inquires on this issue?

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes, I will do so.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In regard to the grants decided on by the board of Horse Sport Ireland, is it, as in the case of the board of the Irish Sports Council, that a meeting is held at which agreement is reached on what each individual applicant will get or is there a sub-committee of the board which deals with this issue?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

I am unaware of the situation in that regard. I think I am aware of the case to which the Chairman refers, although I appreciate we cannot get into that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will come to that later.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Given the nature of Horse Sport Ireland, one of its major affiliates is Showjumping Ireland. It has a board, as does Horse Sport Ireland. I would expect any body funded by the Irish Sports Council to have in place clear criteria in respect of the awarding of grants and that it would operate an open and transparent system in that regard.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I can understand Mr. Mulvey saying that because that is the practice of the Irish Sports Council. The question that arises is whether that practice is in place within Horse Sport Ireland. Mr. Mulvey might also explain the purpose of the board of SJI and state whether it is also part of the Irish Sports Council.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

No, SJI is not part of the Irish Sports Council. The chief executive, Mr. Treacy, is more familiar with these matters, but as I understand it, all the affiliates representing equestrian Ireland, from pony clubs to showjumping to equestrian events and so on, come under the umbrella group of Horse Sport Ireland, HSI. It is an amalgam of a considerable number of bodies. I think there may have been 19 in total which, as stated by Mr. Treacy, in 2007 came under the remit of the agency known as Horse Sport Ireland. All these bodies retain a degree of autonomy over their section of the horse sport industry in Ireland.

I would expect that decisions on grants - I hope this is the case and I will check it out - met by way of Exchequer funds are appropriately, properly and transparently accounted for, such that inquiries about any decision and how it was arrived at can be responded to. While the person inquiring may not agree with the decision, he or she should at least be told the basis for it. That is what is practised by the Council. As the national funding body, I would expect that level of transparency would apply in decision-making.

Deputy Deasy raised a similar issue in terms of how grants are allocated. There are historical and current methods in terms of Showjumping Ireland and the horse shows that take place, including inter-classification. As I understand it, and I am subject to correction on this, in terms of applications for international shows in the showjumping or pony classes, we have to go through the Fédération Equestre Internationale, FEI, which is the international accredited federation in this area. We have told Horse Sport Ireland, in terms of its looking to hold these shows, that we support this in so far as the shows can be funded and carried out expeditiously at no cost to the taxpayer. The events this year were very successful. The European Championships held at Millstreet this year was a very successful show. It was effectively managed with the co-operation, I would hope, of everyone concerned.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was that a pony championship?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Yes. On the cusp of that, Millstreet has been awarded another international show.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was that event partially funded by the Irish Sports Council?

Mr. John Treacy:

It was funded in part through the funding we provide to HSI.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Part of the problem, and I make my judgment based on the e-mails I have before me, is that this organisation processed an application through SJI but the funds were withheld by the ISC due to irregularities in SJI's annual accounts.

Mr. John Treacy:

We do not deal with SJI.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is the reason given.

Mr. John Treacy:

We deal solely with HSI.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In spite of being approved for funding, it was never paid. That e-mail is dated 27 March 2014.

Mr. John Treacy:

We do not deal with SJI at all. All our relations are with HSI.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, no reply was sent to that e-mail. How was that individual to know whether he is on the right or wrong track regarding an application for funding for an event that would be beneficial to Ireland? That is the issue. From a governance point of view, Mr. Mulvey and Mr. Treacy need to ensure those who are associated in any way with their organisation conduct their business in the way that they have described their own conduct. Perhaps they might check with the various bodies that are part of their organisation to ensure all of their accounts are up to date and that any governance issues that might arise are addressed.

The other outstanding matter for HSI is the question they thought I was going to raise. Is an amount of money outstanding or in dispute between HSI and a company that asked for funding?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

We are obviously under absolute privilege here. I was invited to use my good offices to mediate between a certain event location in the south of Ireland, which I think I am at liberty to identify as Millstreet. This venue is owned by Noel C. Duggan, who has a tremendous track record in facilitating international and national eventing in a tremendous location in Millstreet. I have visited the location on several occasions and have met Mr. Duggan and his son. A matter remains outstanding between Millstreet and the Duggan family, and Show Jumping Ireland directly and Horse Sport Ireland indirectly. The issue is historical and goes back a number of years. There has been considerable angst between them. The issue arose initially out of decisions made by Show Jumping Ireland around Millstreet's qualification to host certain national or international events. There were differences of opinion between Millstreet and Show Jumping Ireland, and the then leadership of that body, regarding the funding of those events, who could participate in them and the terms and conditions under which they would be recognised.

This is an ongoing dispute. I have been involved for the best part of 12 months trying to understand it and I have had a number of meetings with the parties concerned, including one meeting lasting eight hours with both parties. We have not yet resolved the dispute. Millstreet is of the view that it got a competition ruling which indicated a decision by the Competition Authority that the rules applied by Show Jumping Ireland were inimical to its interests and that the rules were contrary to Competition Authority regulations. It got an opinion to that effect from the Competition Authority. Show Jumping Ireland subsequently issued an apology and I understand it has changed its rules.

An issue also arose involving an insurance case in respect of which Millstreet felt it was not adequately covered by Show Jumping Ireland's universal insurance and there were issues around cost. It was also claimed that Show Jumping Ireland and, by extension, HSI were not giving Millstreet sufficient recognition for what it was achieving or support for its applications for national and international competitions. The issue then arose with Show Jumping Ireland and, by extension, HSI as to whether Millstreet was affiliated and would abide by the changed rules. This has gone all the way up to the international body and back down again.

It has been a sharp learning curve for me in meeting them because they are both to a large degree very strong on their respective opinions. I have tried to mediate a settlement and an offer has been made by Show Jumping Ireland to resolve the dispute on the basis of suggestions I have made. That has not succeeded yet. I left the mediation in abeyance while Millstreet was holding its international competition. My view, which I have expressed to Show Jumping Ireland and HSI, is that as much support should be given to Millstreet as possible. This is an international competition and the country was on show. The Duggan family had invested a considerable amount. I have been over the grounds with Noel C. Duggan and his son. They have developed a tremendous campus for international competitions on the lands they own outside of Green Gables and otherwise. This year's competition was very successful and it brought plaudits from everybody. I congratulate them again on that. They do things with finesse.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to hear Mr. Mulvey say that. I understand the complexities of the issues arising but I have great confidence in his experience and ability to bring about a resolution to that problem. I have no doubt that he will resolve it when he renews his efforts.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

I certainly will renew my efforts but like any mediation, the two parties need to be committed to settling the dispute. If they want to settle, they will, and if they do not, they will not. Sometimes in mediation it is a case of ostriches. There is no point in one person having his or her head in the sand and somebody else kicking him or her. Both sides will have to come to a reasonable position.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have one more question on HSI. I previously raised an issue with the Minister regarding the purchase of horses from Europe. Apparently when show jumpers are imported into Ireland their passports are marked so that they have a certain number of points. They may never have jumped a fence but their passports are marked up. They may subsequently be exported as eventing horses even though they are not. This is an issue for the horsey world and for Ireland because these horses are being exported as having participated in events when they have not. For some reason they are marked up with points for events when they are imported into Ireland. Apparently this is legal and due to some sort of anomaly in the system. I raised the issue with the Minister for a response but there was no indication that the issue would be taken on board. Surely Horse Sport Ireland would be interested in this given that it affects the perception from abroad of the quality and qualifications of the animals being exported. I ask that somebody ask Horse Sport Ireland to investigate the matter.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

To which Minister did the Chairman write?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I tabled a parliamentary question to, I think, Mr. Morgan's Department.

Mr. Donagh Morgan:

I will follow that up. Was this recent?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. It affects the perception of the industry.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

De we have the 2013 accounts?

Ms June Menton:

No, I do not have them with me.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there anything significant in them? The accounts under discussion are 18 months out of date.

Ms June Menton:

I can examine them and revert to the committee.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there anything that should come to our attention?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy referring to Horse Sports Ireland?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No I am speaking about the Irish Sports Council.

Ms June Menton:

No.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The 2012 accounts were signed off in December 2013.

Ms June Menton:

That is correct.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is very late. Is there any reason for that.

Ms June Menton:

I have all the dates on which we approved the accounts. For 2012, the council approved the accounts on 4 March. They were sent to the Department on 25 February and to the Comptroller and Auditor General on the day they were approved by the council. The Comptroller and Auditor General started his work on 28 February and they were signed off on 19 December.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were in the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for nine months.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were in the system.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any reason for that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In the early part of the year we prioritise the audits of the bigger Departments and State agencies.

So it is really only around the middle of the year that we get to the audits of smaller bodies with lower turnovers.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So there was no big problem with these accounts, which delayed the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No there was not. It was just a matter of scheduling.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I return to the two sub-committees of the Irish Sports Council for approving grants. They examine the grants and make proposals about the grants.

Mr. John Treacy:

The executive would make recommendations to those sub-committees.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The executive, being Mr. Treacy,-----

Mr. John Treacy:

Yes.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

----- makes recommendations to the sub-committee.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

It is the senior management team within the executive.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is important to us as a committee. The executive makes recommendations to two sub-committees. Does that cover every grant?

Mr. John Treacy:

There are local sports partnership grants that do not go to sub-committees.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not?

Mr. John Treacy:

They go directly to the board.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why do they not?

Mr. John Treacy:

We do not have sub-committees for the participation side because that funding probably goes directly to the local sports partnership and we are really only kind-of funding salaries at that level, so it is-----

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

In total for all the local sports partnerships it is just short of €5 million. I wish to reassure the Deputy. For every grant payment out, there is paperwork for the board on this prior to the meetings. Questions can be asked by members of the board. No sub-committee makes a decision. The board makes its decision on each of the financial resolutions. As chairman, I invite them to ask questions and then I take the item and I say, "€2.7 million for the FAI. Do I have a proposer; a seconder? Is that approved by the council?" because it is a financial matter. I go religiously-----

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So there are one or two exceptions like the-----

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Where there are, they are the local partnerships which are based on the national local authorities or combinations of them, as Mr. Treacy indicated. These are almost 90% predetermined because they relate to the salaries of the individuals running the sports partnerships in the local authorities in combination with them.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long has Mr. Mulvey been chairman of the board?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Since September 2010.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I now propose to dispose of the Irish Sports Council annual accounts for 2012 subject to the various outstanding questions being answered in writing to the clerk.

Perhaps Mr. Mulvey might keep us informed of his mediation work. Hopefully we can bring it to a conclusion.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey:

Dealing with our four-legged friends is far more complex than dealing with our two-legged ones that I normally deal with, I can assure the Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Sure, we will give Mr. Mulvey until Christmas to have it totally sorted.

I would appreciate if he and Mr. Morgan could come back to us on the various issues as soon as possible so that we have a complete picture. I thank each of the witnesses for attending.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Deputy Ross asked earlier about the status of the audit of the Irish Museum of Modern Art. We have actually received the finalised accounts which are being checked. I expect the audit certificate to issue shortly.