David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Anne Ferris. The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with members designate of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. On behalf of the committee I welcome all the witnesses to this meeting. They are all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and up early so I thank them for being here. Could everybody please turn off their mobile phones? It is not good enough to have them on silent because it interferes with the sound system in the House. We have staff who are listening in and they hear static if the phones are not switched off completely, so I would appreciate that.

Before we begin, I want to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rules of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This is a particularly important meeting. It is useful because we are in public session and the public will hopefully be listening in and have an opportunity to hear what we have to say this morning. It will probably be the first of a number of engagements between the committee and the IHREC members and I invite Professor Siobhán Mullally to make an opening statement on behalf of the members designate.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

I thank the Chair and members of the committee. We are delighted to be here this morning and we thank the committee for the invitation to appear. My colleagues have asked me to give a brief opening statement on behalf of the members designate of the IHREC. I understand the committee would like to discuss any suggestions and proposals we as members designate may have on our future role within the commission.

This year, 2013, marks the 15th anniversary of the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement, which was the catalyst for deepening and strengthening the human rights and equality architecture in Ireland. The challenges facing human rights and equality are many, but we also believe opportunities now arise and we are keen to see these realised during the terms of our mandates. The financial crisis and austerity measures have created significant hardship for many people and raise very pressing questions of human rights, justice and equality. As members designate of the IHREC, we are acutely aware of the need to ensure the new equality and human rights infrastructure that is being created must effectively promote and vindicate the rights of all persons.

We have no doubt that this will be a challenging task. Both the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission, IHRC, have played important roles in the protection of the rights of some of the most vulnerable groups in Irish society. We are determined to build on this work and to ensure the IHREC will meet its objective of enhancing the protection of human rights, dignity and equality.

We are appearing today as members designate of the IHREC. We were formerly appointed members of the IHRC. Our status with regard to the Equality Authority has not yet been resolved, and the transitional arrangements on that are not yet complete. There are many challenging tasks facing the Equality Authority, both in terms of its ongoing work and in the context of preparations for a successful and effective merger. We are very hopeful that these transitional arrangements will be completed as soon as possible.

As members will know, the UN Paris Principles emphasise the critical importance of the independence of the selection and appointment processes for both commissioners and senior staff of national human rights institutions, NHRIs. To date, the selection committee appointed to oversee the nomination of commissioners designate has played a crucial role in establishing the credibility of the new body.

Concerning the appointment process for the chief commissioner, a similarly independent and transparent approach should be progressed without delay to ensure a person of the requisite abilities and qualifications can fill this key leadership role at the earliest opportunity.

With regard to the future development of the commission, sufficient resources both in terms of finances and staffing will be required to discharge properly the wide range of functions afforded to the IHREC, which include the new functions of a duty on public bodies to promote human rights and equality and to promote social cohesion through the integration of migrants and other minorities and the fostering of intercultural relations. The proposed new duties present important opportunities for us to transform how public bodies function and to address the pressing issues of integration, inequality and exclusion facing society. It will be of the utmost importance that the new commission commences its work on a sound financial basis to enable us to fulfil these tasks and to undertake new tasks that may arise, including, for example, possible functions under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the optional protocol to the UN committee against torture.

We will work hard to ensure the new commission will be accredited as an "A" status national human rights institution under the UN Paris Principles and that it will remain a strong and active member of Equinet in Europe. To this end, it will be essential to ensure the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Bill will be regarded internationally as a model of best practice and as an exemplar of what is required by the Paris Principles. We hope the Bill will be brought forward without delay to enable us to progress our work and the merger process effectively. As a commission, we will engage fully with this legislative process to support its successful progression.

As members designate and as appointed members of the IHREC, we have held two meetings to date and members are actively engaged in sub-committees on merger planning to progress our work effectively. It may be of interest to the committee to learn that the new commission has decided to respond formally to the interdepartmental committee report on the Magdalen laundries and, to this end, we recently wrote to Mr. Justice Quirke drawing his attention to the human rights and equality issues arising from the report. As members designate of the commission, we have been impressed by the constructive and positive engagement by the executive and staff of both the Equality Authority and the IHRC in the preparations for the merger process and in supporting the work of the commission to date. We believe that this commitment and professionalism bodes well for the success of the new commission’s work and for a successful merger process that will enhance the protection of human rights and equality in our State.

I thank the committee for its attention. We had a constructive and positive meeting yesterday evening with the Minister for Justice and Equality and his officials and we are hopeful we can progress our work effectively. We are also optimistic that we will have the capacity to do so. We very much welcome the opportunity to engage on a regular basis and we also welcome the committee's commitment to, and interest in, the development of a strong robust national human rights institution. My colleagues and I are available to respond any questions members may have.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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Is it commissioner or commissioner designate?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

It is both.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I thank Professor Mullally for her opening statement. I welcome all the members designate and congratulate them. It is fantastic to be this far down the road and to have people of such extraordinary standing in the fields of human rights and equality through their practical experience, theoretical developments and leadership involved. It is great to have them here.

I have a number of questions, which I will put individually, as is the custom for this committee, and they are for reply by any of the 14 members designate who wish to take them up. The first is a bigger picture question and I ask it because I am interested in the commission's view on the heads of the Bill that is on the way. This issue has not been clarified as much I would like in the legislation. What is the purpose of the IHREC? I am not convinced its role is clearly defined in the legislation. I do not know whether it is a case handling body, a policy proposer, a legislative oversight mechanism, an education provider or all of the above. Is there another way to define its role?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

We see the purpose of the commission as an institution that will effectively promote and protect human rights and equality, which means building the necessary infrastructure to do that through a range of mechanisms, not only through enforcement and compliance functions but also through promoting human rights, raising awareness around questions of human rights and equality, addressing new and emerging issues around equality and human rights and using all the resources and functions we will have to do that effectively. In the context of the current challenges facing society, enhancing the protection and promotion of human rights and equality will be essential to ensuring we have a successful economic recovery.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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Will Professor Mullally elaborate on the relationship the new commission should have with this committee and-or other Oireachtas committees? The IHRC and the Equality Authority in the past wanted more engagement with committees and more proactive engagement with them by such committees. What are the commission's views on that as it begins it work?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

This has been discussed by us as members designate but also in the past by the IHRC. We would like to engage constructively with the committee and to do more than simply report to it or present annual plans. We would like to be actively engaged in the legislative process, to contribute and support the committee's work and to meet on a more regular basis than was the case in the past. Engagement with parliamentary bodies has been critical to the functioning of national human rights institutions and we would welcome opportunities to work much more closely with committees and to engage effectively in the legislative process and engage with the committee beyond merely reporting processes.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I am sure the committee will welcome that, especially under the leadership of our Chairman who was proactive in ensuring we had engagement on the establishment of the body to date. Professor Mullally mentioned the selection process for the chief commissioner in her opening statement. She hopes that a similar approach to that past will be used.

I have two questions. Does she mean that or does she have a comment on the selection panel that interviewed her and recommended her to the Government? Is that what she means? Would she like to see that panel come back or an independent panel per se?

I have an allied question about the chief commissioner. From a communication from the Minister I understand he wanted all members designate to appoint someone from their group to chair in the interim. Is that person Professor Mullally or has that not been done?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

On the last question, what we have done as a commission is appoint working chairpersons on a rotating basis. Our opening meeting was chaired by my colleague, Mr. Kieran Rose. I chaired our second meeting and I am chairing in between. That is the decision we have taken and we are keeping it under review.

It is very much our concern that the recruitment and selection of the chief commissioner be progressed as soon as possible and without delay. A recommendation of the working group established to advise on the new body was that this was a key leadership role which would require significant commitment and expertise to lead the merger process and enhance the functions of both bodies in that process. We would like to see an independent and transparent process for the recruitment and selection of the commissioner that is fully compliant with powers and principles. That will, of course, be essential to our accreditation as an A-status institution and appearing and, in fact, being fully transparent and independent. We have full confidence in the processes completed to date. Ideally, we would like to see this continuing and being restarted, if possible, without delay because it is essential to progressing all of our work and ensuring we have an effective process.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I wish all our guests well in their future roles. Is the recruitment process undertaken through the Commission for Public Service Appointments or will it be handled directly by the Department of Justice and Equality? Professor Mullally in her opening statement referred to staffing and resources. What staffing and resources are required to carry out the commission's functions?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

I shall respond to the first question. As my colleagues, Mr. Mark Kelly and Mr. Frank Conaty, have been working specifically on questions of finances, staffing and resources in preparation for the presentation of a business plan, I will hand over to them on that issue.

In the recruitment and selection of the chief commissioner we suggest a similar process to the one that took place, ideally with the same selection committee. It could be with the support of the Commission for Public Service Appointments in terms of the administrative functions involved and back-up required.

Mr. Mark Kelly:

Obviously, the question of staffing and resources is crucial because through having a professional and expert staff this new body will be able to discharge its task effectively. Our starting point has been to look at the very steep reduction in resources which effectively has been imposed on the two existing bodies. One of the statistics that has struck us particularly is that where the Equality Authority is concerned, from the start of 2012 to the end of this year we anticipate there will have been a 75% reduction in staff. In fact, the current position is that only 11 or 12 staff are expected to transfer on a legacy basis to the new bodies. By any standards, that is manifestly adequate to discharge the existing functions. However, it is not just a question of discharging the existing functions because the heads of the Bill which the committee has previously considered clearly provide for some very interesting new functions. There will be a specific social cohesion function, including promoting the integration of migrants and encouraging good practice in intercultural relations, which we very much welcome. An exciting new public sector duty will be introduced and the new commission will have a role in supporting public bodies in breathing life into that public sector duty in order to more effectively mainstream human rights and equality considerations not just in law but also in the policy and practice of public sector bodies.

In her introduction Professor Mullally referred to two further areas that are very much on our radar. They are for the future, but they are also, in a sense, legacies of the past. In 2007 the Government did not ratify the two conventions Professor Mullally mentioned - the optional protocol to the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Both foresee the establishment of monitoring mechanisms at national level to give further effect to international work under these two conventions. Plainly there is potential for the new Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission to play a significant role in these national monitoring functions. It is now nearly eight years since the signature of the two conventions. As we look ahead, it is only prudent to predict that there will also be a staffing and capacity need for both.

I will ask Mr. Conaty to go into more detail on our thinking about the staffing issue and the level of need involved.

Mr. Frank Conaty:

The resource difficulties are well acknowledged, as my colleague has pointed out. I reassure all concerned that we are working with the senior staff of both agencies to identify and put more colour on the impact of these deficiencies and what is needed to address them. That work will continue in the coming months. We have had constructive interaction with the Department on the matter. It is something that will be engaged with very robustly in coming weeks. I emphasise that we are working constructively with all concerned to try to ensure these deficiencies are addressed as soon as possible. It will be critical for the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission in coming through the merger process that these resource issues are addressed as soon as possible in order that we do not have further delays in that regard. We are working towards that end.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I echo Senator Katherine Zappone's words of congratulations to the delegates on their appointment as members of the IHRC and members designate of the IHREC. I apologise in advance for my imminent departure, as I must attend the Order of Business in the Seanad at 10.30 a.m.

I was very glad to hear what Professor Mullally had to say about regular engagement with the committee and on the issues in the appointment of the chief commissioner. We share her view that the appointment needs to be made in an independent and transparent way. I wish to ask about the transitional arrangements for the Equality Authority of Ireland. Many have expressed concerns that equality will be - if not downgraded - of less significance than the other issues for the new commission. What specifically is meant by transitional arrangements? Is there a proposed timeframe for resolution of these issues?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

It has been a concern with regard to merger processes in other contexts that equality issues have not had the same prominence as what are termed human rights. We are very much aware of that background but do not believe it will be a difficulty in the Irish context. We are very confident that equality and human rights issues will be fully addressed and that we will work effectively on both strands of the functions that will be allocated to us.

With regard to the transitional arrangements, we have been formally appointed to the Irish Human Rights Commission as of 16 April.

We have not been formally appointed to the board of the Equality Authority. As there is no functioning board, there is a gap in its governance and oversight. As an interim measure, pending the human rights and equality commission legislation coming into force and our appointment as members of the new commission, it is likely that we will be appointed to the board of the authority. Under the relevant legislation, additional considerations arise with regard to membership of the board and these relate specifically to representatives of employers and employees, which is the social partnership model. It has been specifically recognised that there should not be representation of any particular sector in the new human rights and equality commission and this was part of the recommendation of the working group. In the interim, given that the commission has not yet formally been established and that it is imperative there be proper governance, oversight and a functioning board of the Equality Authority, we are likely to be appointed to the board of the authority. We will have to consider how to resolve the issue that there are 14 of us and only 12 appointees to the board. There would need to be nominations from employees' organisations and employers. We think we can successfully resolve this issue and manage it in the interim, which will be important, particularly given concern that equality issues may lapse or fall into the background during planning for the merger.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank Professor Mullally for her very comprehensive answer. Does she have a timeframe in mind? Will it be weeks or months?

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

We hope it will be weeks rather than months. We discussed the matter at our meeting yesterday with the Minister and his officials. We hope to progress it in the coming weeks.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the commissioners and congratulate and wish them well. I hope I am not jumping the gun, but subject to the legislation being put in place and the funding and resources which will be required, will they outline their priorities in the human rights arena and the most urgent needs which must be tackled? It is probably a huge area, but are there issues which they will prioritise once the commission is up and running? Are there issues which stick out like a sore thumb and which need to be addressed? I ask the delegates to throw some light on what they will do once the commission is up and running with a legislative framework and the appropriate funding and resources to allow them do their job.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

We are aware that the legislative framework may take some time to be put in place, but we hope it will be progressed as soon as possible. We will continue to work in the interim pending the adoption of the relevant legislation. We hope the recruitment and selection of the chief commissioner can be progressed prior to completion of the legislation. We hope to continue with the recruitment and selection process, although the legislation may not yet be fully enacted.

With regard to strategic priorities on human rights and equality issues, as a body, we will work on these as part of our strategic planning process. Two bodies are already up and running, the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission, and both have work plans in place for this year and are addressing a number of ongoing issues, on which they have been engaging with us. I will defer to my colleagues from the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority to address the ongoing work of both bodies and their current work plans.

Mr. Des Hogan:

I am acting CEO of the Human Rights Commission. As Professor Mullally mentioned, we have undertaken work on the Magdalen laundries which we will see progress in the coming weeks. Two big issues which have been flagged are the impact of austerity measures throughout Europe - this is seen as becoming a bigger issue in Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland - and the privatisation of water services. Emerging human rights issues include cloning; while we do not yet have specific plans to work on this issue, no doubt the commission will want to consider them. We are involved with the Prison Service in education and training in human rights. We have been pushing for the recognition of Traveller ethnicity and expect this work to continue in coming months.

Mr. Laurence Bond:

The Equality Authority operates at two levels. Under the legislation, we have a number of functions and a body of work continuously progresses under the radar. Occasionally high priority issues are brought forward in policy statements or campaigns. We are preparing for the merger and in the absence of a board since last summer, we have no immediate high priority campaigns. Nevertheless, there is ongoing case work under the legislation - promotional functions involve a wide range of activities such as research, development work with public bodies and civil society and providing information - which includes a significant programme of work funded by the European Social Fund on education, training and workplace equality and a range of activities in the education sector.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

An issue which has been presented to us with which we may engage, given that it is a cross-cutting equality and human rights issue, is section 37 of the employment equality legislation, on which Mr. Herrick may wish to speak.

Mr. Liam Herrick:

This issue has been raised with us by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, and we understand it has come before the Houses. It is of great importance from a human rights and an equality perspective and raises very complex questions about the interaction between constitutional law and international human rights standards. We will consider how the commission might most effectively deal with it. The issues for us are likely to be the availability of resources and the legislation and chief commissioner being put in place. We would like to play an active and positive role in the consideration of this issue by the Oireachtas in the coming months and perhaps into next year. It emphasises the urgency of resolving the resource and legislative issues at the earliest possible opportunity.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Herrick remind us of what is included in section 37?

Mr. Liam Herrick:

It is a provision in equality legislation which allows certain bodies with a relationship with religious institutions to be exempt from the general standards of equality legislation. A number of publications by the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission over a long period have highlighted the difficulty with this legislation, particularly with regard to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and family or marital status. A specific issue has been raised with regard to employment in schools which are religious institutions and exempt from the legislation. The Ministers for Education and Skills and Justice and Equality have identified this as a serious issue and it is referred to in the programme for Government. We understand Private Members' Bills have also been introduced on the issue. We appreciate its the urgency and very much want to play a positive role. It comes back to the capacity of the existing bodies which are very depleted.

Mr. Kieran Rose:

A critical issue identified by the commissioners is that of premises. The Equality Authority is based on Clonmel Street in an OPW building which will revert to it. The Human Rights Commission has a lease on a premises on Jervis Street and the rent is significant.

It is not the most appropriate premises for a new organisation that would like to have a strong footprint in the public consciousness. For example, it does not have a storefront presence on the street. We raised this matter with the Minister of State last night. We would enjoy and seek the support of the committee in resolving the matter. An ideal solution would be for the Office of Public Works, OPW, to take over the lease of the Jervis Street premises, allowing the new Irish human rights and equality commission, IHREC, to gain new premises more suitable to a merged organisation that wants a strong public profile.

Ms Orlagh O'Farrell:

A final point may be worth mentioning. As commissioners designate, we are conscious that one of the factors in enhancing the effectiveness and general welcome for equality and human rights bodies is engagement with civil society. We hope to pay a great deal of attention to this factor. At EU and international standard, it is one of the benchmarks for measuring our effectiveness. We are persuaded of this.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Excellent. On my behalf, I thank our guests for attending. I apologise - I will keep my speech for last. I call Deputy Corcoran Kennedy.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I join with colleagues in welcoming our guests and congratulate them on their positions. It is a question of how the body will reprioritise. On foot of Senator O'Donovan's question, a number of priorities were outlined, but I have in mind a number of more topical issues that we are currently addressing, for example, prostitution reform. The Constitutional Convention has debated marriage equality. Transgender rights present another issue. Submissions and advice were received on these matters previously. What mechanism does the new commission use or intend to use to contribute to the current debates? A document was published on transgender rights. Will it be updated? Will the commission be reactive or proactive as regards these issues? How will it decide what to prioritise?

I welcome Ms O'Farrell's comment on engaging with civil society. This is key, particularly in terms of education, where young people can be taught to understand issues and grow into adults with inclusive views of society, diversity and multiculturalism. They will accept as the norm the fact that we are not all the same. Education needs to be concentrated on, but it is dependent on resources. We must also work on that front.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

The commission's view is that we should be proactive in engaging with human rights and equality issues. Although we will react to requests, we are keen to be proactive in engaging positively with policy and legislative processes, wider policy debates, civil society and parliamentary bodies, including on the types of issue to which the Deputy referred. As both bodies have already done a great deal of work on these issues, we are ready and willing to engage proactively.

In the longer term, we will develop a strategic plan for the new IHREC on the basis of public consultations with civil society and the wider public to identify long-term priorities. Our immediate concerns are to be proactive, to engage in contributing as constructively as possible to ongoing public debates and new and emerging issues, to highlight Ireland's international human rights obligations and commitments and to determine how these can inform the work of public bodies and parliamentary processes.

The Irish Human Rights Commission, IHRC, has been engaging on the matter of human rights education. We are keen to support that approach. We are also keen to support the Equality Authority in raising awareness, disseminating information and enhancing the knowledge base around how equality can meaningfully improve our society. We hope that the communications committee that we have established can be used effectively to support education on human rights and equality.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I am certain that our guests are aware of the significant task they face. Everyone is aware of the challenges to morale faced in both organisations thanks to the recent past. The cultural meld will present a further challenge, particularly in a context of limited resources. Professor Mullally mentioned the commission's strategic plan. That process will present a key opportunity to meet some of the challenges. Has the commission designate decided whether to complete that plan without the chief commissioner?

Relative to the planning process and meeting the task is the independence of the new commission. Speaking as a former member of the old commission, we often discussed the importance of being independent of the Government and, equally, civil society. Has the new commission discussed any of these issues or challenges yet? Its members play active roles in civil society, particularly in human rights and equality bodies. This will be a key challenge, particularly in the context of the strategic plan.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

We have been appointed as commissioners designate of the new body in our independent capacity. As such, we will serve independently. We all have other jobs, positions and work ongoing, but we are committed to being fully independent as commissioners. We have discussed the matter. While we will engage constructively with civil society, we view ourselves as a different body and a national human rights institution.

We will progress the planning of our staffing and resourcing in the coming weeks. We are required to present a business plan relatively soon. We will continue with that planning.

My colleague, Mr. Kelly, has a number of points to make.

Mr. Mark Kelly:

Professor Mullally captured the situation well. We have discussed this issue. Those of us who come from a civil society background are crystal clear about the fact that we serve on the commission in our independent capacities rather than as representatives of particular constituencies or organisations. The complexion of the new commission is different from its predecessor bodies, in that the extent to which it includes people who have a civil society background is much greater. This is a welcome development.

From Ms O'Farrell's comments, it is clear that the new commission regards civil society as an important stakeholder in our future work. We will be independent of the Government and prepared to engage with civil society while recognising it as a stakeholder.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the commissioners-designate for their forthrightness in answering our difficult questions. On austerity and its effect on society, which as stated is a European-wide phenomenon, do the commissioners designate believe that through their work they will be able to impact on budgetary proposals in this country, and working with their colleagues in other international organisations, taking Germany as the major powerhouse in Europe, they can have a positive effect on it being resolved in Europe? Austerity is an issue going forward not alone for Ireland but elsewhere, particularly Greece. The UK and other eastern European countries are also affected. In the view of the commissioners-designate, how could they through their work assist civil society in countries that are really suffering? If left to five years time, it will be too late. I am not trying to put the delegates on the spot and will understand if my question is too knife-edged to answer. I was not aware the commission would have a remit in this area.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

I am sure a number of my colleagues would like to respond to the Senator's question. The impact of budgetary measures on equality and human rights is an issue on which both bodies have been actively engaged to date. We would like to build on that work to ensure that budgetary measures do not disadvantage very vulnerable groups or impact upon them in a way that erodes their human rights and further perpetuates inequality. We will seek to be proactive in terms of highlighting potential and increasing inequalities and human rights concerns arising from budgetary measures. My colleagues, Ms Blake, Mr. Rose and Ms O'Farrell would also like to respond to the Senator's question.

Ms Teresa Blake:

I thank the joint committee for receiving us so graciously. Senator O'Donovan hit the nail on the head in that ultimately all human rights are indivisible in nature. At the end of the day, the street cred and track record of human rights intervention in societies is all about economic and social rights, equality and delivery of them in a real way. It is about how people enjoy their family rights, their rights to education and access to all that to which they have entitlement. What must preoccupy all of the human rights organisations across Europe is how we are preserving these core human rights that have built our society to this level if we are not focusing forensically on the impact of our budgets and the decisions made in places like here and Europe on the actual lives of real people who look to us for street cred. There are many magnificent documents in terms of legislative norms on human rights but the people are entitled to look to us for our track record. We hope we will be able to bring something to bear at any and all processes, in this type of engagement and on any piece of legislation that might impact on the quality of living in an economic and social society like Ireland. At the end of the day, it is economic, social and cultural rights that open the gateway for the enjoyment of greater fulfilment.

I look forward to the idea of a roadshow, through which we will meet people on the ground. Too often, human rights is hijacked in ivory towers. There are numerous people in our society doing human rights work, many of whom do so voluntarily. We want to be able to relate to them. The independence of the organisation is a core value. It is an honour to have been appointed. We hope we will deliver.

Ms Orlagh O'Farrell:

Senator O'Donovan posed an excellent question. There are a number of things which some of us are conscious we can do to lift human rights and equality from a level of rhetoric and into how policies are designed. It is not a matter of legislation alone but of us seeking to promote to build this into the design stages of policy. A good opportunity will arise soon in the context of the adoption of the EU Structural Funds. A great deal of spending, in terms of education, training, employment possibilities and so on, will be governed by this funding. The way has been shown in terms of previous work on gender equality and how one builds in to monitor impacts into the systems from the start. I do not know if we will be up and running quickly enough to be able to do that. However, a good use of the two bodies would be to ensure a mechanism is developed to build monitoring for human rights, equality and social inclusions into policies from the outset. That would get us off to a good start. We are not lacking ideas. Hopefully, we will have the means of realising some of them.

Mr. Kieran Rose:

As already stated, Senator O'Donovan has posed a very good question. In countries in which human rights and equality are embedded in public policy, society and the economy tend to be much more economically successful. We would suggest that embedding issues of human rights and equality in society and our public policy can be part of our economic recovery. The Equality Authority previously funded a Dublin County Council-GLEN study on how respect for the nine grounds within the city could be an aspect of job creation and competitiveness. This goes to very ordinary issues in that, for example, to attract tourists requires respect for different cultures and people of different ethnic backgrounds. If one wants to attract people with disabilities and their families then the city, including its pubs and hotels, must be accessible to people. On all of those grounds, it is part of our economic competitiveness.

Ms Blake's suggestion in regard to having a roadshow is brilliant. It is important we are not put in an ivory tower but are part of the mainstream of Irish society, visiting housing estates in Dublin or the villages of Ireland. Part of our key role would be to ensure we are part of the mainstream debate.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Professor Mullally mentioned the A status and what is required to achieve that. Perhaps she would elaborate a little further on that issue.

Professor Siobhán Mullally:

This relates to the international co-ordinating committee which accredits national human rights institutions. The Irish Human Rights Commission has been recognised as an A status institution. That accreditation is coming up for review as part of the ordinary process of review of accreditation statuses. A sub-committee of the international co-ordinating committee looks specifically at accreditation. Essential to our achieving the A status is ensuring we are fully independent and comply fully with the UN-Paris principles on national human rights institutions. The selection and appointment of the commission and the processes followed in that regard, including our capacity to recruit and appoint senior staff, our engagement with civil society on all of the issues covered by the Paris principles, form part of the accreditation process. We would be very keen to ensure we retain that status because it would give the commission standing, as it has previously had, with international human rights bodies that would not be available to institutions that do not have that A status.

That would not be available to institutions that do not have that A status. Given that Ireland is a member of the UN Human Rights Council at present it would be critical to retain that. Crucially, it is about the question of our independence, resources and our capacity to function effectively and to achieve our mandates.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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On my behalf and on behalf of the members of the committee, I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting today. I am certainly enthused, encouraged and energised by the engagement we had. I thank you for taking up the role and wish you well into the future. As colleagues have said, it will be extremely challenging but it is also extraordinarily important. I took a note of the word "engagement". The idea of having a road show or engaging with citizens is very important to ensure the ordinary citizen is aware, first, that such a body exists and also, more importantly, its role and what it does. That is a huge challenge and I wish you well with it.

The committee was very pleased to be involved in engaging with the selection panel. There is a change in politics in Ireland. It is happening subtly. This committee and others are engaging more and distancing ourselves from the Executive. We are acting as a parliamentary body. We are not afraid to challenge the Executive from time to time. We see that as our role as a parliamentary committee. You have that role as well, in another way, and that is very healthy and positive. There is much debate in the Constitutional Convention at present about changing the electoral system and so forth, which is also positive.

We were happy to engage with the selection panel and to give it a fair wind, as it were. I am aware from discussions with colleagues in the committee that there is concern about the appointment of the chief commissioner. We would concur that a similar process should apply and we would like the chief commissioner to be appointed as soon as possible. A great deal of work has been done at departmental level to get us to this point today. On behalf of the members I congratulate and thank the officials and the Minister, who have put so much work into getting us to the current position. There is still a long way to go.

It is crucial that the commission be independent and be seen to be independent. Also, I ask you to reflect on what equality means. We tend to throw words, phrases and concepts around without really getting down to the brass tacks of what equality means for people. Obviously, human rights are involved as well, but the word "equality" is used a great deal and I do not know if we really know what it means at the end of the day. Do we really think about it and have a working concept of what it means for people in their daily lives?

On that note, I thank you for attending the meeting today. That concludes our engagement with you. Is it agreed that the committee will inform the Minister that it has concluded its engagement with the members designate and that it will forward a transcript of the meeting to the Minister for his information? Agreed. Finally, on behalf of the committee, I would welcome the further engagement you outlined. There is a new system now for the heads of a Bill. It is very exciting, although it means a great deal more work for us. The heads of a Bill come to the committee and we have a very interesting format whereby we invite submissions. In some cases, we have received hundreds of submissions. We have a big input into the legislation before it is published, which is extremely useful and welcome. We would welcome engagement with the members designate on an ongoing basis. Do not wait for an invitation to get in contact. Please submit material to us as you see fit.

Thank you again for assisting us with our deliberations today and I wish you every success in your role.