Seanad debates

Wednesday, 18 April 2012

Human Trafficking and Prostitution: Motion

 

5:00 am

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to the House.

6:00 am

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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I, too, welcome the Minister to the House.

I move:

''That Seanad Éireann recalls the Seanad debate on the Independent Group (Taoiseach's Nominees) Senators' motion 'Criminalising the purchase of sex in Ireland to curb prostitution and trafficking' on 12 October 2011 and:

repeats its recognition that the trafficking of women and girls for sexual exploitation is a modern form of slavery and a form of human rights abuse;

recognises that prostitution and trafficking cause incalculable harm and acute distress to untold numbers of women and children; and that the trafficking of children for the purposes of prostitution is especially abhorrent;

recalls that the motion, as adopted on 12 October 2011, agrees that 'prior to the Government making a definitive decision on whether legislation should be enacted reflecting legislation in Sweden and Norway there should be a considered public debate'; and the six month timeframe given to the House by Minister of State, Kathleen Lynch TD within which the Government would establish this public consultation process;

notes that the six month timeframe has elapsed and that the public consultation process has not commenced;

reiterates the call of the Independent Group (Taoiseach's Nominees) for the Government to develop effective and appropriate responses to deal with prostitution and trafficking for sexual exploitation, and introduce legislation criminalising the purchase of sex in Ireland in order to curb prostitution and trafficking for sexual exploitation.

Considers that it is possible to draft appropriate legislation, with the advice of the Attorney General, criminalising the purchase of a sexual service by way of prostitution; and notes that some options in this regard have already been explored in independent legal opinions (Immigrant Council of Ireland).

Calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to uphold the Government's commitment to commence a public consultation process with a view to assisting the Government in making a definitive decision on whether legislation should be enacted reflecting relevant legislation in Sweden and Norway, and in particular calls on the Minister to:

1. publish before the end of May 2012 clearly defined Terms of Reference for the consultation process to consider criminalising the purchase of sex in Ireland;

2. provide that the public consultation process should conclude before the end of October 2012;

3. undertake to publish the Report arising from the public consultation process before the end of December 2012; and

4. return to this House to debate the outcome of the public consultation process.''.

The Minister will be aware that the Independent Group of Senators previously submitted a Private Members' motion calling for the criminalisation of the purchase of sex to curb prostitution and trafficking and that it was accepted at the time of that debate that a public consultation would take place and would commence within six months. When as the end of 2011 approached there was still no announcement in regard to the consultation process, I respectfully wrote to the Minister asking when it might commence and he replied that the consultation document was near completion and would be published soon after. In February this year, following the "Prime Time" documentary "Profiting from Prostitution", Senator Power and I raised the issue as a matter on the Adjournment but still no announcement was forthcoming. April 11 then passed, six months since the promise and still there was no word.

It is, therefore, with a sense of disappointment that we propose the motion before the House. I do so to restate our commitment and sense of urgency to the issue before us, namely, that our laws on prostitution and human trafficking need to be changed. On each day of the six months that have passed more than 1,000 women and girls were made available for paid sex in Ireland. Irish research, conducted by the Immigrant Council of Ireland, has explored the intersection of migration, prostitution and sex trafficking. Some 97% of the women involved in prostitution in Ireland are migrant women. The facts are that traffickers and recruiters use sophisticated methods of persuasion, enticement and deception, often exploiting women's situations of vulnerability, including their need to migrate here from situations of extreme poverty, to seek sustainable livelihood's elsewhere. Many of these women endure forced travel, rape, physical and psychological coercion, captivity and the withholding of passports and money. They are then made available for purchase through the Internet. Repeated audits of the Internet have shown that their number has not declined.

I am somewhat heartened to note that the Government's amendment acknowledges the estimates given regarding the extent of trafficking and organised prostitution in Ireland although I submit that much of it reads as though the status quo of protection is working, when clearly it is not. Public debate has taken place over the past six months in the absence of a consultation document. Part of this debate was in the form of two harrowing documentaries which confirm the findings of the Immigrant Council of Ireland's research and enhanced our understanding of the organised nature of prostitution and its link with organised crime. The RTE documentary, "Profiting from Prostitution", was based on six months of surveillance and exposed the control exerted over women by pimps and the structure of an organised brothel network in Ireland. Both reports exposed the chilling reality for hundreds of women who are moved from town to town on a regular basis in order to meet the demands of purchasers. The documentaries - we heard about this again afternoon - dispelled the myth that these women work independently when in fact they are threatened, coerced and enslaved by pimps. The documentaries also show that criminalising the women involved is ineffective and does nothing to dismantle the sophisticated infrastructure of the pimps who remain untouched.

The Minister will be aware that Ireland has a number of international obligations in the context of human trafficking, each of which recognises that measures to deter demand for prostitution represent an efficient approach to reducing sex trafficking. Countries are obliged to introduce legislation to discourage demand. It was pointed out during the previous debate that the Criminal Justice (Human Trafficking) Act fulfils our international obligations, as noted in the Government's amendment. However, I respectfully suggest that while obligations have been met technically they have not been met effectively. The Criminal Justice (Human Trafficking) Act criminalised trafficking in adults or children for the purpose of sexual exploitation and made it an offence to knowingly buy sex from someone who had been trafficked. The Minister will be aware that only a negligible number of convictions have been secured against traffickers under this Act. There have in fact been only two convictions, both of which were in respect of the trafficking of a minor. There is significant difficulty in defining a person as a victim of trafficking under the Act. It appears that such definition depends on the crime having been proven. As such, we have a chicken and egg type scenario while other jurisdictions have more sophisticated methods of victim identification. In essence, the two minors are considered the only victims of trafficking in Ireland yet statistics from the Minister's Department indicate that more than 200 people have been identified as potential victims of human trafficking.

It must be noted that no one has been convicted of purchasing sex from a trafficked person. The Act provides that the purchaser of sex can use the defence that he did not know that the person from whom he was purchasing sex had been trafficked. Clearly then the legislation does not deal adequately with the crime of trafficking, protect trafficked people or tackle the demand for prostitution. The demand to purchase human beings is what we must address. Prostitution is a market-led industry. If the demand side is suppressed, then the supply side will dwindle.

I acknowledge also the Government's noting of the report of the advisory group on HIV in sex work. We look forward to commenting on this in detail during the consultation process. For now, I will simply say that this report is most relevant to developing countries with extremely high levels of HIV transmission, of which Ireland is not one. The health and welfare people involved in prostitution are of paramount concern. There is no reason health strategies, in the form of a harm reduction model as well as a harm elimination model, cannot be pursued in tandem, as in the case of Sweden. The Minister knows that while the Government will ultimately have to make a decision, which must be informed by solid evidence, it will still need to make an ethical and legal choice based on the diverse views presented. That decision will also have to be in reference to an Irish context.

The motion also refers to the progressive legislation introduced in Norway and Sweden on this issue. The Nordic Gender Institute has identified a halving of the number of sex buyers since the purchase of sex was criminalised in Sweden ten years ago. It has also indicated a reduction in organised crime in general. Why and how have these laws proven so effective in Sweden? The Swedish law works as a deterrent to the purchasing of sex. It seeks to change the behaviour of the offender and of other potential offenders by way of penalties and, therefore, the increased chance of prosecution. A fine rather than a criminal conviction faces a first time offender under Swedish law. Purchasers of sex rarely have a criminal profile and are often married or in relationships. Given the profile of the purchaser, the stigma attached to receiving a fine or a notice to their residence acts as an effective deterrent. The introduction of such a law here in Ireland would reflect the belief that it is unacceptable to purchase another human being and that as a society we will not acquiesce when sexual exploitation exists in our towns and cities.

I acknowledge the presence in the Visitors Gallery of members of the Turn off the Red Light Coalition. The Minister may be aware that that coalition has obtained legal opinions on the creation of an offence to obtain a sexual service by way of prostitution. These opinions contain strong legal arguments that there is no legal impediment to the creation of such an offence. Again, we look forward to sharing the detail of these arguments with the Minister during the course of the consultation process.

The Independent Senators who tabled this motion do not consider prostitution and human trafficking to be a peripheral issue nor a matter that warrants delay and postponement. This is a grave issue which some countries have demonstrated can be addressed by law in a way that is effective and can reduce human rights abuses. We have evidence that societies that have enacted a law that criminalises the purchase of sex are healthier and less violent places for all people and, most especially, for women and children. In an Irish context, it is alarmingly clear from recent television documentaries and Irish scholarly research that this land is a place wherein Irish and migrant women and children, some men and boys, are caught in an horrific web of abuse of human rights and restrictions on human freedom. There was a common understanding, given our interpretation of the Government's commitment in October, that Government consultation would have commenced over the past six months. Instead, during that spell of silence by Government, it has been revealed by stark imagery the kind of abuse in this area that is happening throughout our land.

It is good to hear now that the Minister is again committing himself to publishing the consultation document shortly. Time has been lost, however. We are on our feet today because, as Members of the Oireachtas, we feel a depth of responsibility for ensuring this matter is advanced and no further delay happens.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I am seconding this motion. I welcome the Minister to the House. His presence is an acknowledgment of the seriousness and commitment he brings to the substantive issue covered in the motion before the House. Just over six months have passed since we debated the possibility of criminalising the purchase of sex. We suggested that such a measure could and would halt the pernicious and degrading crime of human trafficking. Ireland has been the poster boy of Europe in many areas in the past. There is a strong likelihood that the level of acceptance of prostitution in Ireland will make us the poster boy for a degrading and sordid side of society. It would be easy for me to repeat what I said during last October's debate on this issue. However, that would be insulting to the many women who are illegally held captive in our Republic. We owe it to them to bear witness. We need to build on our deeper and ever-increasing understanding of prostitution in Ireland.

During last October's debate, we were promised by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, that a planned consultation process would be in place "within six months". Nothing has happened since then, other than the broadcasting of two worthy and important documentaries on television. An RTE documentary, "Profiting from Prostitution", showed what one man - Paul Maguire - and a small team of filmmakers could achieve with Irish taxpayers' money. They highlighted and prevented heinous crimes from being committed against women in Ireland. The documentary exposed that prostitution is not just a matter of escort agencies and individual call girls working on their own - it is a massive, sophisticated, military-style operation that is organised by an organised crime syndicate.

We know that resources are one element of the solution. I understand that just 1.5 staff members in the Garda National Immigration Bureau are dealing with this issue. That is meagre when compared to the scale of the problem. As Senator Zappone said, an average of 1,000 people are offered for sex each day through the Internet. Up to 97% of them are migrant woman and, worryingly, some of them are children. Paul Maguire outlined some shocking statistics and facts. He mentioned that 76 of these women are under the age of 26. The level and scale of the movement of these victims is also alarming. An average of 330 of them are moved from city to city or town to town each week. We are moving towards a gradual acceptance and tolerance of prostitution in Ireland. If the Seanad does nothing else in this term other than to assist the Minister in arguing for and supporting his goal of eradicating the growth in human trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation in Ireland, Senators will be able to stand proud.

One in 15 men in Ireland purchases sex. The men in question tend to be high-earning professionals. It has been reported that over 60% of them are married or in committed relationships. I said during last October's debate that I am a classic example of such a person, in so far as I am married with children. I said I was the classic punter, so to speak. Having said that, we were told by Paul Maguire this afternoon that there is no particular demographic. Men as young as 19 are involved in this activity. Mr. Maguire mentioned the case of an older man who walked in with his Zimmer frame to purchase sex from a woman. Such cases can be found everywhere in Ireland. In 2011, the Criminal Assets Bureau indicated that the sex industry is worth approximately €250 million per annum. It reported that the average price for sex in Ireland is approximately €150 for half an hour. Paul Maguire of RTE has worked out that a pimp is earning at least €100,000 a week.

Some people argue that prostitution is a harmless commercial transaction between consenting adults and that we should respect the choices of those who willingly choose to become involved in prostitution. This is just not true. It is fair to point out that in the context of an expanded prostitution business, the old concept of consenting adults, which is embedded in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993, has disappeared and dissolved as a result of the commercialisation of indoor prostitution activity, the normalisation of the act and the commodification of the prostituted person. Women who are involved in prostitution suffer severe physical and emotional harm as a result of having to provide sex to multiple buyers on a daily basis. The Minister is well aware that they are vulnerable to sexually transmitted infections, violent attacks and the threat of violence. They often live under the control of those who run prostitution agencies. They do not know to whom they are expected to provide sex or what might be demanded from them at any moment.

It was suggested at this afternoon's briefing with Paul Maguire and Monica O'Connor that prostitution has become like a takeaway. There are many pages on the Internet setting out what one might order, or what one might want. It can be delivered to one within ten or 15 minutes. Women who are involved in prostitution live lives that are full of fear of violence and anxiety about health and safety. They move from apartment to apartment and from town to town - from Christchurch to Ennis to Cavan to Galway to Dundalk. These are facts. The Government amendment rather patronisingly recognises "the difficulties inherent in reliably estimating the extent of trafficking and organised prostitution" and notes "the various estimates that have been made in that regard". We know the facts. At this stage we need to move beyond them.

I contend that we know the extent and the scale of this problem. Now is the time for action. There is a sufficient body of knowledge, backed up by some indepth research from Ireland, on the issues pertaining to prostitution and sex trafficking. My colleague, Senator Zappone, outlined some of that evidence. The Government must recognise the need for a modern approach to prostitution that reflects best international practice. A central part of this approach must involve tackling the demand for paid sex. I believe the Minister is serious about this. It can be achieved by penalising the purchase of sex, along the lines of the Swedish legislation that has been demonstrated to work. The Government should follow this approach and close the loophole in the existing laws.

Last October, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, reminded us of the two main aims of the Irish approach to prostitution, as set out in legislation in 1993. She said that the first aim is to protect the public "from the more intrusive aspects" of prostitution. On-street solicitation was criminalised for that reason. The second aim is to protect people who sell sex. It is clear that when the 1993 law was coined, the lawmakers did not have thousands of foreign nationals, most of whom lack proper authorisation to be in the country, in mind. Therefore, this aspect of what was intended when this legal measure was introduced in the 1990s is no longer relevant under the present circumstances.

We ask the Minister to clarify his plans with regard to his commitment to develop effective and appropriate responses to deal with prostitution and trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation in Ireland. We would like him to offer a time commitment to us in the Seanad this evening. He should also set out how he might approach this matter, as the Government amendment is confusing in this regard. The bullet points in the amendment mention "a planned public consultation exercise", "a detailed discussion document", "the consultation process", "the Minister's intention to publish a discussion document" and "the current review". We would like clarity on those matters. The most simple thing we are requesting is a committed timeframe for the public consultation process.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after ''Seanad Éireann'' and substitute the following:

"--- deplores the trafficking of persons, and in particular the trafficking of children, for sexual exploitation;

--- acknowledges that the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Government are determined to ensure that everything that can possibly be done to combat prostitution and human trafficking will be done;

--- notes the extensive package of legislative, administrative and other measures undertaken in recent years to prevent trafficking in human beings, protect victims and prosecute offenders;

--- further notes that Ireland's legislation on human trafficking for sexual exploitation complies with the EU Council Framework Decision on Combating Trafficking in Human Beings, Council of Europe and other international instruments and that the penalties in this jurisdiction for human trafficking are severe;

--- notes the conclusions of the December 2011 Report of the United Nations AIDS Advisory Group on HIV and Sex Work, which recommends that States remove criminal penalties for the purchase and sale of sex to establish legal and policy environments conducive to universal access to HIV services for sex workers;

--- notes that under the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 it is an offence to knowingly solicit a trafficked person in any place, public or private, for the purpose of prostitution;

--- notes that under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993, it is an offence to organise prostitution, knowingly live off the earnings of prostitution, or keep or manage a brothel;

--- notes that under the 1993 Act, as amended, any person who solicits or importunes a child, whether or not for the purposes of prostitution, to commit an act which would constitute carnal knowledge or sexual assault, is guilty of an offence, and that a person who engages in a sexual act with the child could be charged with serious sexual offences;

--- while recognising the difficulties inherent in reliably estimating the extent of trafficking and organised prostitution, notes the various estimates that have been made in that regard;

--- acknowledges the concerted efforts, including targeted operations, which have been made, and which will continue to be made, by the Garda Síochána to vigorously investigate and prosecute alleged human traffickers;

--- notes that because of the possible involvement of criminal gangs in human trafficking, such Garda operations can be supported by specialist assistance provided by units such as the Criminal Assets Bureau, the Garda National Immigration Bureau, and the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation;

--- in supporting all reasonable and effective measures to curb prostitution, recognises that any proposal to criminalise the purchase of sexual services within our legal and constitutional framework raises complex issues and requires very careful examination;

--- acknowledges that there are differing and genuinely held views on the appropriate legislative response to prostitution;

--- notes that on 17 October last, in order to inform public debate on this matter, the Minister for Justice and Equality published his Department's report on Sweden's legislation to combat prostitution and human trafficking;

--- acknowledges the Minister's announcement, on the same date, of a planned public consultation exercise to help inform the future direction of legislation on prostitution, thus ensuring that public debate on this sensitive issue is open to the widest possible audience;

--- notes that a detailed discussion document to facilitate the planned consultation process is expected to be published shortly and that the Minister will make an announcement at that stage regarding the arrangements and time frame for making submissions;

--- agrees that a report of the outcome of the consultation process should be published;

--- notes that legislative measures taken in other jurisdictions, including the 'Swedish model', should and will be examined in the context of the current review of prostitution legislation;

--- welcomes the Minister's intention to publish a discussion document on the future direction of prostitution legislation before the end of May and looks forward to the outcome of the consultation process;

--- further notes that when the current review, including the consultation process is concluded, the Minister will bring any legislative proposals to Government in the

usual way.'".

I welcome the Minister to the House again. As those who proposed this motion said, we previously contemplated this matter on 12 October last. I recall that at the end of that debate, there was a general level of satisfaction when it appeared to be the political position that certain political progress would be made over the months to come. It was suggested that the Minister would report back to us and it was hoped that he would be in a position to announce some changes. I recall that one of the Independent Senators - perhaps it was Senator van Turnhout - warned us that unless we kept strictly to that six-month deadline, a further motion would be brought before this House. This motion has been proposed now that the six-month timeframe has elapsed by a week or so.

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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I am a woman of my word.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has certainly kept her political promise. Here we are again this evening. The amendment I have moved on behalf of the Government is quite expansive and thorough. If it is acted upon, it will bring a satisfactory solution to this issue. I wish to focus on a part of it that was referred to briefly by Senator Zappone. It is probably the most substantial change to the background to last October's debate, in the context of where we are this afternoon. I refer to the report of the UNAIDS Advisory Group on HIV and Sex Work, which was published in December 2011, subsequent to the debate I have mentioned. When documents are presented before us, we sometimes wish they had not been. We might prefer to ignore them because they raise uncomfortable and inconvenient truths. In the context of the subject we are now discussing - the issue of prostitution - it appears that the UN is advising that states should consider the removal of criminal penalties relating to the purchase and sale of sex and instead establish legal and policy environments that are conducive to universal access to HIV services for sex workers. Senator Zappone has correctly pointed out that this would certainly apply to some of the Third World and developing countries. Can we say with certainty it does not apply to us in western Europe? I would be interested in hearing the Minister's response to that. Trying to solve one problem while creating another difficulty is not what we should be about. It is not what the Minister is about. We must hear the Minister's view on this because the report adds a slightly different perspective to the current one and has an impact on how we proceed. I am sure, however, of the Government's commitment to dealing with this issue.

One side of the debate was informed by the UN report and another side concerned the desire to amplify the pressure for action. There have been more television documentaries and investigations into the sex industry. Perhaps we did not need the latter and perhaps they just presented to us what we already know. The documentaries painted a very frightening picture of how the industry is affecting so many lives in this country. Those who did not fully recognise the scale of the challenge and scandal, and the scale of the Minister's difficulty in dealing with these, would have been very much informed by those programmes.

We cannot rest on our laurels or say we will wait another six months. I cannot say to my Independent colleagues that I will see them again in six months, at which time we will certainly have all the problems solved. We are giving a very strong commitment in our amendment that the Government is taking the matter absolutely seriously and intends to act. It must act methodically and take into account all the evidence, including that gleaned from a full debate on the new suggestions, concerns and fears of the United Nations.

The bottom line is that the shocking problem requires action, not just talk, from the Government. It requires legislative change, not just kind words from the Government. We expect action from the Minister in the very near future. The consultation period and the consultative programme must result in progress, and dialogue must be open and action must follow. I look forward to the Minister's comments.

I advocate the acceptance of amendment No. 1. I hope that, once again, the House can unite in the sure knowledge that the Government intends to go beyond words and engage in action at the earliest possible opportunity. This is what all our motions are about. It would be a strong, positive and good signal from this House if we did not just lead the debate on the matter but also inspired the Government to act. We look forward to early action from it in that regard.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I support the motion tabled by my Independent colleagues on the other side of the House. Our position has not really changed since the original motion. I congratulate the sponsors of the motion on their unusual parliamentary punctuality, which is sometimes very lacking in this House. It is unfair to blame the current Minister but I am sure that when we were on the other side of the House we would have said returning within six months was very quick and that one should be given time to react.

When in government, Fianna Fáil passed the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008. We, as a party, will do everything possible to try to eliminate prostitution and control and curb human trafficking in any way we can. When the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 was being passed, I remember a spokesperson on the other side of the other House talking to groups such as Ruhama and others, which felt we should have gone the extra mile to criminalise totally the purchase of sex. We did not do so at that stage. I had reservations and the then Minister felt the Bill was very important, a major milestone and step in the right direction, which I have no doubt was the case. Circumstances have changed, however, and I believe it important to go the extra mile to eradicate prostitution from our society.

While experts point to the Swedish model and others to the model in Holland, I do not believe that by eliminating prostitution one is putting women's lives at great risk and increasing the number of sexual attacks. There is a view that prostitution somehow helps to control depression and reduce the incidence of suicide. I do not subscribe to this. I accept that there is a lot of common ground between the Government's amendment and what is purported by others. It is easy on this side to be totally critical of the Government. Playing that trump card will not do me or this side of the House any good. I hope the common ground can be explored to the advantage of the genuine people who tabled the motion.

I read the Government's amendment and have a couple of interesting queries for the Minister. A paragraph states, "in supporting all reasonable and effective measures to curb prostitution, recognises that any proposal to criminalise the purchase of sexual services within our legal and constitutional framework raises complex issues and requires very careful examination". I honestly believe the criminalisation of the purchase of sex is neither legally nor constitutionally complex; one opts for it or one does not. The Minister might enlighten me on the legal pitfalls. The area is very black and white. I have some knowledge of the Constitution and certainly envisage no constitutional restrictions or parameters that might in some way impede the Minister from moving in this direction.

The punctuality of the re-entry of this motion must certainly have taken the Minister by surprise. I empathise with him in that regard. I have no doubt that if progress is made within the next six months we will revisit this issue. I recognise a tone of determination on the part of Senator Zappone and others. Like a hungry dog with a bone, they will not give up on this.

The amendment "acknowledges the Minister's announcement, on the same date, of a planned public consultation exercise to help inform the future direction of legislation on prostitution, thus ensuring that public debate on this sensitive issue is open to the widest possible audience". I am a little perplexed by that. I am not saying so in an unhelpful way. Prostitution is one of the oldest trades, dating back many thousands of years. We are discussing this matter because of the way Europe and society has changed in the past decade. Twenty or 30 years ago, the idea of trafficking human beings to Ireland for sexual purposes was unheard of. One could argue this was the case less than 20 years ago. I am concerned that there is a need for further debate. This issue has been debated for many years. People's positions are clear in one way or another and the facts are that prostitution, whether it involves the trafficking of women or minors, is a blight on society and that it escalated as we became more European and because of demographic movement.

In our madness during the Celtic tiger era, there was so much money flowing around that using prostitutes became more affordable for many, thus intensifying the abuse. My position is quite clear. While I understand the Minister's anxiety to move in this direction – I have no doubt that the Government intends to try to resolve the issue, as stated by Senator Bradford – and there is much common ground, unless the Minister makes a pragmatic statement that affords the Independents who moved this motion an opportunity not to push it to a vote, we will support the motion as tabled.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I second the Government's amendment. I commend Senator Zappone and the other Independent Senators who, six months after a similar motion was tabled in the House, have brought this matter to our attention again. The Government's amendment is conciliatory and adequately addresses the actions called for by the Independent Senators. Every right-minded person agrees that curbing prostitution and preventing the trafficking of women for the purpose of prostitution are necessary. The Government is committed to developing effective and appropriate responses to deal with these issues. It is an unfortunate reality that Ireland is part of a globalised industry that mostly exploits women and girls, but also some men and boys. These victims are experiencing a serious form of human rights abuse. The methods used to dupe many of them into such a situation are callous and underhanded. Many are lured by promises of jobs or education, only to find that on arrival at their destinations, they are relieved of their passports and locked in captivity where they are under the continuous threat of physical violence and forced into prostitution.

While it is difficult to estimate the numbers involved in this industry in Ireland, it is a lucrative one and it is only right and proper that those profiting from it should be pursued and prevented from earning a living from such dreadful methods. An Garda Síochána is committed to targeting proactively groups and individuals involved in organised crime, including prostitution. Within the Departments of Justice and Equality and Social Protection, the HSE and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, dedicated units are charged with tackling various aspects of the issue. This co-ordinated approach confirms the Government's commitment to addressing the matter in a proactive and decisive manner.

I commend RTE on its "Profiting from Prostitution" programme, which brought the issue home to everyone and painted a picture of what was occurring. I urge all Senators to support the Government amendment so that the Chamber can send a strong collective message to the effect that we support the co-operation of the State agencies in protecting victims, apprehending perpetrators and bringing the latter to justice. I commend the Minister, Deputy Shatter, on his stance and on his intention to publish a discussion document on the future direction of prosecution legislation before the end of May. Like him, I look forward to the outcome of the consultation process. He has indicated that he will bring legislative proposals to the Government after that process. I commend the amendment to the House.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. It is significant that he has attended the House for this important debate. I empathise with a great deal, but not all, of the content of the motion in the name of the Independent Senators. It is important that the Seanad be used as a place where there are intelligent voices of dissent, of which I hope to be one.

The motion's first point reads: "repeats its recognition that the trafficking of women and girls for sexual exploitation is a modern form of slavery and a form of human rights abuse". Of course it is; I could not agree more, but have the Senators ever heard of the male species? Did any of them ever think of the men and boys involved? Some of them did, but the only Senator who has had the decency to refer to them so far is Senator Cummins. Perhaps I am wrong.

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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I discussed them as well.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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When I twice raised the issue of the forcible castration of 16 year old boys in Holland, the only person in this House who referred to it was Senator Cummins. I suggest that the motion be amended to include the whole of the human species and not just women. I am sure that the proposers would agree with that.

I will refer to criminalising the purchase of sex. I do not approve of prostitution and have never used the services of a prostitute, but I have encountered prostitutes. When I bought my house on North Great George's Street some 35 years ago, a young woman was working as a prostitute in the basement next door. On the night of an All-Ireland final, a group of "young gentlemen" in elevated spirits attempted to break the door down and get a group rate. I went over with my real 19th century shillelagh and got rid of them. She invited me in and gave me a cup of tea. I have visited a brothel a couple of times. Each time, it was to protect the vulnerable. I cannot say much about that woman, but she was certainly doing it voluntarily.

The trivialisation and commodification of sex are real and appalling, but do we honestly believe that we will eliminate prostitution? It is not possible. If we lived in a perfect world and it was possible, it would be grand. Senator Mac Conghail knows of the riots that occurred at the time of the "Plough and the Stars". A member of the audience shouted that it was a libel against the women of Ireland because there was not a prostitute the length and breadth of the country. That audience was within a cuckoo's spit of what was then the largest red light district in the whole of Europe. The district was subsequently attacked by the forces of Frank Duff, which had all the brothels closed down. The result was a significant increase in disease. This problem must be addressed. For this reason, it is important that we recognise and study the UN report.

I helped to write a report on human trafficking. While these issues are related, they are not identical. If we try to make them so, we will make a big mistake. Our principal attack should be on trafficking, a most repugnant and disgraceful activity that is linked with many problems, not just prostitution. For example, it is linked with the way Turkish workers were treated in this country. No one gave a damn about them until Deputy Higgins spoke out on the issue. It is also related to the way that Filipino workers are treated like slaves and minions. Each of these is a form of economic exploitation and I am 100% against them.

I am concerned about the issue of criminalisation. I do not sympathise, but I am concerned about the idea of naming and shaming. The House is constantly discussing the issue of suicide. A married man or another person who engaged a prostitute, which is a reprehensible and immoral practice, would be named and shamed, but what about the impact on that person's family? This is a complex and difficult issue. I watched with great sadness a film at the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, film festival where I was a judge. As far as I can remember, the film was about a Spanish man who was forced into this situation.

I agree with the Minister and will support the Government's amendment. It takes into account a significant report by the United Nations. More than 15 years ago I spoke at the IPU meeting in Delhi in India. The then ambassador, who was a very gracious woman, gave a dinner party before the meeting and asked if she could be of assistance to us. I told her I was interested in the question of AIDS and asked her to provide a list of the organisations which dealt with AIDS. Of 71 such organisations, only one dealt with gay men and none dealt with sex workers, as they were then known. I raised that issue because I thought it was dynamite. It was driving the whole thing underground. That is still my concern, although I empathise with my colleagues' motivation. For the reasons stated I will be voting with the Government.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senators who have tabled this motion. I am conscious that others wish to speak but I welcome the opportunity to update the House on the current review of our legislation on prostitution. I acknowledge the promptness of Senators in tabling this motion on the basis that we are about a week late in fulfilling our promise to publish a document that will form part of a consultative process. Unfortunately, I have discovered as a Minister that no matter how committed one is to an issue, it is not always possible to meet timeframes when one is also dealing with other important legislation. As Members of this House will discover next week, an important Bill dealing with a related area is about to be published which I hope, based on discussions I am having, will first come before this House.

We all agree that, as the motion states, human trafficking for sexual exploitation is a modern form of slavery and an abuse of human rights. We also agree that trafficking and prostitution cause very serious harm. We all share the same objective of dealing as effectively as we can with prostitution and human trafficking and with the harm caused by both.

The motion calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to uphold the Government's commitment to commence a consultation process with a view to making a decision on whether prostitution legislation based on the Swedish legislative model should be enacted in this jurisdiction. I unequivocally assure the House that our commitment stands and that a detailed discussion document on the future direction of prostitution legislation designed to facilitate the planned consultation process will be published shortly. Drafting of the discussion document is well advanced and the document will be published before the end of May.

Last October, when announcing to this House my intention to conduct a public consultation process, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, stated on my behalf that I wanted the public debate on this issue to be open to the widest possible audience. I have also published my Department's report on Sweden's legislation to combat prostitution and human trafficking in order to inform public debate on this matter. Prostitution affects individuals, communities and society as a whole. Owing to increasing globalisation, it has become more complex. For that reason, I want to ensure that everyone who wishes to make a contribution to this important debate is given the opportunity to do so. The consultation process will form an integral part of the current review of our legislation on prostitution and help to chart the way forward.

The motion reiterates the call by the Independent Group for the Government to develop effective and appropriate responses to deal with prostitution and trafficking for sexual exploitation. I have no doubt there is scope for improvement in our response to this challenge but I also stress that many of the measures taken in this jurisdiction to address human trafficking have received commendation nationally and internationally. A wide range of measures have been taken and will continue to be taken to prevent human trafficking, prosecute traffickers and protect trafficking victims. These measures include: robust legislation; a national action plan; targeted law enforcement; dedicated anti-trafficking units; consultative structures which reflect a whole of Government response and include NGO participation in a number of standing working groups; a holistic range of supports for victims; broad-based awareness raising; and international co-operation.

I do not propose to dwell on any of these measures at length. However, I would like to say a few words about the dedicated units that have been put in place. First, there is a dedicated anti-trafficking unit in my Department which, working with statutory, non-governmental and international organisations, co-ordinates and implements Government policy and measures to give effect to Ireland's international obligations. Second, there is a dedicated unit in the Garda National Immigration Bureau. This unit takes the lead role in the policing response. I assure the House that the prevention and detection of human trafficking remains a policing priority. It was one of the priorities set out in the police plan for 2012. Third, a team of experts in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions deals with prosecutions in trafficking cases. Fourth, a dedicated unit in the Health Service Executive develops and implements an individual care plan for each potential victim of human trafficking and a unit in the Legal Aid Board provides legal advice to victims. In addition, personnel in the new communities and asylum seekers unit in the Department of Social Protection help victims who are not in the asylum system but are granted temporary residence to access a wide range of state services, such as accommodation and other State benefits.

I assure Senators that we are not complacent. Self-evidently, the nature of human trafficking is particularly insidious and constant vigilance is required to ensure that it is recognised and tackled. It is imperative that State agencies and victim support organisations continue to work together to deal with this issue. Effective collaboration will enable preventative measures to continue to be put in place, victims to be protected and perpetrators apprehended and brought to justice. I am firmly committed to ensuring those goals continue to be met, even while understanding the difficulties that arise in effecting prosecutions where allegations of trafficking are made.

Although there is a significant raft of legislation on prostitution, there is scope for reform. The criminal law on prostitution has traditionally had two objectives, which were referred to earlier. The first objective is to protect society from the more intrusive aspects of such activity from a public order perspective. For that reason, under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 it is an offence to solicit in a street or public place for the purposes of prostitution. The offence can be committed by the client, the prostitute or a third party, such as a pimp. The second objective of the law on prostitution is to protect prostitutes from exploitation. The 1993 Act makes it an offence to organise prostitution, coerce or compel a person to be a prostitute, knowingly live off the earnings of a prostitute or keep or manage a brothel. Under public order legislation the advertising of prostitution is also an offence. Prosecutions have been successfully taken under the 1993 Act, contrary to the impression given.

I accept that our legislation on prostitution should be reviewed, primarily because of the changed nature of prostitution in Ireland, which was so well described by Senator Zappone. That review has commenced. Prostitution in this country was once mainly a street based phenomenon but that is no longer the case. Most prostitution these days has moved indoors, is highly mobile in character and is easily facilitated by the use of mobile phones and the Internet, particularly in regard to the use of websites.

Garda operations to tackle illegal activities have adapted to address the changed nature of prostitution. The prostitution industry is monitored by the Garda and is the subject of regular targeted initiatives. I would like to mention Operation Quest, in particular. Initially established in the Dublin metropolitan region in 2003 in response to the growth of lap dancing clubs, it was revived in 2005 to target brothel keeping, organised prostitution and the advertising of prostitution. The operation has successfully targeted individuals involved in the organisation of prostitution and led to the seizure of significant amounts of cash and the referral of files to the Criminal Assets Bureau. Operation Quest investigations frequently unearth complex prostitution rings operating throughout this jurisdiction and abroad and have provided the Garda with useful insights into the industry. The operation has been expanded on a regional basis. It focuses on monitoring, gathering intelligence and acting on that intelligence.

I am sure Senators will be aware of another Garda operation in the Limerick area. Operation Freewheel is an ongoing, multi-phase investigation in Limerick Garda division. It was devised in response to identified crime trends and specific complaints of brothel and street-based prostitution from residents and the business community in an area adjacent to Limerick city centre. The initiative focuses on the identification and prosecution of offenders, identifying any possible links to human trafficking and other criminal enterprises, and increasing awareness among those involved in prostitution, particularly women, of the availability of diversion services. This operation has led to numerous arrests, prosecutions and convictions for a range of offences under the 1993 legislation. A number of the recent court cases generated substantial publicity.

The motion rightly states that the trafficking of children for the purposes of sexual exploitation is especially abhorrent. The amendment agrees but also points to the very strong legislative provisions already in place to address such trafficking. It is important that their existence is acknowledged. The Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 gave effect to Ireland's obligations in various international instruments to criminalise human trafficking. The trafficking of children - boys or girls - for sexual exploitation, including prostitution, is a criminal offence and those convicted of such trafficking are liable in this State to life imprisonment. In addition, it is an offence under the legislation for any person to knowingly solicit or importune a trafficked person in any place, public or private, for the purpose of prostitution. This provision was included in the legislation specifically to address demand.

Ireland's legislation on human trafficking for sexual exploitation complies with the EU Council Framework Decision on Combatting Trafficking in Human Beings, as well as Council of Europe and other international instruments.

Where prostitution is concerned, our current legislation applies equally to adults and children, men and women, boys and girls. However, the amendment highlights an important provision which is specific to children. The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993 was amended in 2007 to provide that a person who solicits a child - irrespective of whether for the purposes of prostitution - to commit an act which would constitute carnal knowledge or sexual assault is guilty of an offence. Moreover, in addition to being charged with such solicitation, a person who engages in a sexual act with the child can be charged with serious offences under sexual offences legislation. In these circumstances, consent to the sexual act is not a defence. Such solicitation may occur and may effectively be regarded already as a piece of legislation which targets those who seek to purchase sex.

The motion calls on the Government to introduce legislation criminalising the purchase of sex in order to curb prostitution and trafficking for sexual exploitation. Senators will appreciate that until the consultation exercise is completed, it would not be appropriate for the Government to commit to any particular new legislative approach. The consultation process must be and be seen to be objective, transparent, open-minded and fair. As the amendment recognises, reasonable people disagree in good faith on the appropriate legislative response to prostitution. It is important that I facilitate the expression of all views on this subject and that those views are examined in due course. To provide feedback, I intend to publish a report of the outcome of the consultation process. It is my objective that such a report would be published fairly speedily after the process is complete.

The current review of our legislation on prostitution needs to include a comparative legislative analysis. As indicated in the amendment, that analysis will include further examination of the Swedish model but cannot be limited to exploring the experience in Sweden and the Nordic countries that have followed Sweden's lead. Consideration of the international dimension must also take account of the views of international organisations.

In this context, Senators will be aware - it was mentioned earlier in the debate - that since the Seanad debate in October, the Report of the UN AIDS Advisory Group on HIV and Sex Work was published in December 2011. This report has recommended that states remove criminal penalties for the purchase and sale of sex - neither of which currently arises in this jurisdiction - to establish legal and policy environments conducive to universal access to HIV services for sex workers. I do not propose to go into all of the findings in the report of the group. In any event, they require further examination and some Senators speaking this evening indicated they wanted to give further examination to that report. However, to provide just a brief flavour of the UN report, it expresses concerns about the conflation of sex work and trafficking - a matter to which Senator Norris referred - and the impact that failing to clearly distinguish between the two has on sex workers.

Of course, these impacts will vary from country to country. The report states that:

...the approach of criminalising the client has been shown to backfire on sex workers ... in general, demonising and marginalising clients are approaches that create major barriers to effective HIV programming with sex workers ... these approaches are often adopted with the aim of reducing sex work and also trafficking, but they have not been shown to be effective in achieving these aim ... [and] should be avoided, from both a public health and a human rights perspective.

In the circumstances, it will be important that the current review looks carefully at the UN report - a report that should not be entirely ignored. Of course, this is an issue which also will be of particular interest to the Department of Health.

I have given an undertaking this evening that the discussion document to facilitate the consultation process on the future direction of prostitution legislation will be published before the end of May. I will make an announcement at that stage regarding the arrangements and timeframe for making submissions. I am aware from representations received in my Department that there is significant interest in this issue. I have already indicated on a number of occasions that ample time will be given to allow members of the public prepare and make submissions. However, the time will not be open. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I have agreed that following the commencement of the consultative process after the general public has had an opportunity to make submissions, we will hold a conference in the autumn to discuss the report. The widest possible participation will be encouraged in order that we have an open and transparent discussion on all aspects of this very important issue.

I have also agreed that a report of the outcome of the proceedings will be published and I hope this report can be published before the end of December. I must caution, however, that it is subject to resources having regard to the volume of submissions received and competing legislative demands. If it turns out to be the case that we do not manage to publish it by the end of December and it stretches into the middle or end of January, I hope Senators will give us reasonable leeway.

In that context I wish to say something that may not have occurred to Members but which is already creating substantial work in my Department, which is that on 1 January 2013 we will take over the Presidency of the European Union. That puts extraordinary demands on the staff within the Department of Justice and Equality in the context of a myriad of issues we need to address at a European level, a number of which would be very substantial priorities for Members of this House. They include addressing the proposed European directive dealing with victims of crime to put in place a uniform framework across Europe to ensure that victims of crime, including victims of crime in this area, are treated with uniformity, that their rights are respected and that they are provided with the services they require. The objective is the end of December, but one never can be absolutely certain we will meet that objective within the specific timeframe. I believe it is achievable and hope it will prove to be.

I again thank Senators for raising this important matter this evening. The consultation process will be a substantial element of the current review and I look forward to its outcome. I undertake to return to the Senators when the report of the consultation process has been completed. That report will reflect both the written documentation we receive and the discussion that takes place in the meeting we hope to hold as I mentioned. For my part, and that of the Government, I again assure the House that we are committed to take all reasonable and effective measures to address the evil of human trafficking and the issue of prostitution.

I share a view expressed this evening by one Senator which is that in addressing the issue it is important we provide protection for men and women, boys and girls, who find themselves the victims of trafficking.

It is important that we ensure evil people do not exploit other human beings. It is also important to be aware of the fact that the issue of prostitution is one that, in reality, has been part of the human world going back thousands of years. I am not sure we are going to invent a solution that other countries, going back through the millennia, have failed to find. These are issues of human behaviour and conduct, and we must deal with matters in a manner that does not simply create a legal regime that drives this industry further underground to the detriment of those engaged in it and those who resort to it.

There are issues in the context of human beings being fallible and the extent to which their fallibility results in the naming and shaming to which Senator Norris referred. There is therefore a broad range of complex human issues. As far as I am concerned, as Minister for Justice and Equality, human trafficking should have no place of any description in this State. We need to do everything we can to bring to justice those engaged in it. We need to provide the necessary services for victims of trafficking. We must also deal with these matters in a sensible, comprehensive and effective manner. All these considerations should form part of this debate. I look forward to what I think might be an important and interesting discussion that will arise following the publication of the discussion paper that is in preparation. I hoped it would have been published before now but I am assured by my officials that it will be published by the end of May at the latest.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I thank the Minister and warmly welcome him to the House. I even more warmly welcome the words he has shared with us. His commitment to the issue is clear but perhaps we can reflect on it somewhat. I tabled this motion together with my colleagues Senators Katherine Zappone, Fiach Mac Conghail and Mary Ann O'Brien. Much has been made of the six-month period, but my understanding was that the consultation process would be completed within that period. My role is to be a bit impatient and urge things to move forward constructively, not destructively.

In drafting the motion, we were conscious of what happened in the debate six months ago. Then we asked for legislation to be brought forward to criminalise the purchase of sex. We have listened and that is why today we are asking for a clear timetable on the consultation and clear steps for the Government's approach. The Minister has done that for us.

We had a debate last October but the more one immerses oneself in an issue, the more one can understand and appreciate it. My colleague Senator Mac Conghail spoke about bearing witness and it is important to do so. The most frequent argument I have heard against our call to the Government to criminalise the purchase of sex is that criminalisation would violate a woman's or man's right to self determination over his or her own body. I have not come to the issue lightly; I have done my research but I cannot agree with this argument. When we peel away the complex layers of how and why women and men sell their bodies for the sexual gratification of others, it is clear that their path into prostitution did not start with a simple exercise of self determination.

Research shows that a significant number of women end up in prostitution as a result of poverty, debt, homelessness and addiction, having been groomed by a partner, family member or friend. Many are there by force. As my colleagues have outlined, the sex industry in Ireland in inherently exploitative. It is characterised by coercion, whether through violence or economic hardship, which renders free and informed consent to prostitution all but impossible. Those who argue in defence of prostitution on the basis of consent should be mindful that the age identified internationally for entry into prostitution is 14. It is an age at which consent cannot be given, as I know the Minister will agree.

During the debate last October, I spoke about the devastating effects of prostitution on the physical, psychological and emotional welfare of those involved in it, and how unimaginable the impact is on children and child victims of trafficking. We can talk all day about reports, findings and statistics, but the most important evidence of the need to introduce legislation is to be found in the personal experiences of women and children in Ireland.

I acknowledge the Minister's commendable approach in listening to all the different perspectives of the consultation process. I think that is important. When I was preparing for the last debate and today's, I tried to listen to all perspectives. The difficulty is, however, that I have met with victims and have offered to meet with those who present themselves to me through e-mail correspondence as sex workers, but I cannot get a meeting. I want to put that on the record. I am willing to listen to different perspectives and talk to people. One may often get an email, but when one tries to follow it up the people are not there.

Some of the personal stories from recent years were lodged with the Department of Justice and Equality's anti human trafficking unit in September 2011 by the Children's Rights Alliance. One case identified a 17 year old girl from a rural village in Sudan. She was introduced to a Nigerian man by a family friend who promised her an education in Europe. The man brought her to Dublin via Manchester and Belfast. While travelling, she was told to assume a Nigerian identity. She was given clothes, boots and a bag of condoms, and told to do anything the clients wanted. She was forced to have sex with a minimum of four men a night.

In another case, a 16-year-old Romanian was brought to Ireland illegally and within a few months found herself living in fear of the man who brought her here. For two years she was held captive and forced to have sex with men in flats throughout Dublin city. She was subjected to frequent beatings, became pregnant and had a miscarriage when her pimp punched and kicked her in the stomach. She eventually escaped these horrific circumstances and went to the Garda Síochána.

Another eastern European girl came to the attention of members of the Garda Síochána who were called to a house in Dublin by neighbours. She was taken to hospital by ambulance following a beating by a man who had held her at the house and had forced her to have sex with 200 men. It subsequently emerged that she was six months pregnant. She informed gardaí that she had been taken by bus to Spain before being given a false Italian passport and trafficked into Ireland.

This is a real issue and I have no doubt that the organisations working with victims could cite so many more examples. Cases like these show an intrinsic link between trafficking, organised crime and prostitution. Findings from the two recently televised investigative documentaries on the organised nature of prostitution in Ireland support this link. I am not saying they are always linked, but there is a clear evidential link. While I recognise that legislative measures are currently in place to tackle human trafficking and organised prostitution, they do not sufficiently appreciate that link.

Furthermore, I believe they are clearly not working. Sexual exploitation of women, girls and men by organised criminals is rife. We must deter demand for prostitution. That is an integral part of the fight against organised crime and will reduce human trafficking. I see the merits of the Swedish model which criminalises the purchase of sex. Rather than operating in a punitive fashion, its existence alone has acted as a significant deterrent to purchasers of sex. It has also considerably reduced prostitution and associated crime.

I warmly welcome the commitments the Minister has given here today. He has given us a clear timetable. I understand that the Minister's portfolio is wide-ranging and deals with serious issues. I also appreciate the upcoming EU Presidency and am aware of how broad the justice portfolio is in an EU context. On 31 December, I will not be telling the Minister: "Hold on, you said...". We are trying to keep this issue in the spotlight because it is happening every day to those in the industry. I will therefore continue to be impatient and will not apologise for that. I do welcome the Minister's commitments, together with the Government's amendment. Hopefully we can all work together on this issue in future.

7:00 am

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and am glad of the opportunity to renew this debate. We had a full debate on this issue six months ago. I commend Senators Zappone, Mac Conghail and van Turnhout, as well as the other Independent Senators, for bringing the debate to the floor of the House again. They have kept everyone on their toes as regards timing and have also kept this issue at the forefront of our minds.

I was here in this House for the entirety of the previous debate when the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, gave a commitment that there would be a public consultation process. Like all Members, I regret that there has been a lack of progress or apparent progress in the past six months although we have had a good deal of public debate on this issue, given the excellent documentaries to which other speakers have referred.

The information available to us has probably increased in the interim. Senator Zappone set out very clearly the facts and figures around prostitution and trafficking in Ireland and Senator van Turnhout very helpfully and eloquently provided us with some of the very human stories behind the facts and figures.

Given that we are where we are, to use that cliché, and that the document on public consultation has not been published, there is now very little between the Independent Senators' motion and the Government counter motion. I thank the Minister for very helpfully setting out a clear timeline for public consultation and for assuring us that a discussion document on which the public consultation will be based will be published before the end of May. It is very helpful that a conference will be held in the autumn at which interested parties, stakeholders and others can discuss and debate the arguments and the issues entailed in legislating around prostitution and trafficking. I suggest there is a useful model in the conference which the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, held in January in Dublin Castle, on the issue of gender quotas prior to the debate in both Houses on the gender quota Bill, the Electoral (Amendment)(Political Funding) Bill. That conference crystallised the issues for everyone and a conference on this subject could do the same and I suggest it be held in Dublin Castle. It is generally accepted that the end of December is a very reasonable time to have a report published. If the time slips a little, I think we will all accept that. As the Labour Party justice spokesperson I accept a significant amount of legislative work is ongoing in the Department of Justice and Equality even though the Department has had other work to deal with in the past six months.

The Dignity report published by the Department the week after our debate on 17 October 2011 referred to certain practical difficulties associated with adapting a model from Swedish legislation for use in Ireland. In our previous debates we discussed these issues to do with the constitutional framework for criminal justice in Ireland. However, these difficulties can be overcome and this is an aspect which would need to be examined.

We are all in agreement that the current model of legislation needs to be reviewed. There are difficulties associated with it and in the past I been involved in defence cases under that legislation and I know how difficult it is to prosecute and to obtain prosecutions under it. I have also looked at the evaluations of the Swedish legislation and they seem to be very clear that street prostitution has halved in Sweden, and that in eight out of ten prosecutions the purchaser admits the offence. The Minister referred to this statistic. However, it is also clear from the Swedish experience that the legislation alone has not been responsible for the apparent reduction in demand. Reports on the Swedish law find that considerable work was also carried out separate from the legislative work. For example, alongside the legislative model, social services were operating KAST groups involving purchasers of sexual services in order to motivate potential and active sex purchasers to change their behaviour. This demand reduction strategy has to be undertaken in conjunction with any legislation.

I acknowledge and commend the Turn off the Red Light campaign which has been able to mobilise a great deal of support for the Swedish legislative model and which has put the arguments into an Irish context. This campaign has also undertaken a good deal of legal research. The Labour Party was one of the groups which signed up to the Turn off the Red Light campaign. I also acknowledge the work of many NGOs, notably Ruhama, which have done a great deal to support those women, men, boys and children engaged in prostitution.

The Minister referred to the United Nations report on HIV which I have read with great interest and which was issued subsequent to our debate. It is an interesting report which refers throughout to sex work so it takes a very different position to the position adopted in the Swedish legislation. Some of the issues it raises are of particular interest with regard to health strategies and HIV prevention but in my view it comes from a particular position on prostitution law.

We are all agreed in this House on the need to ensure our legislation is robust and effective in tackling prostitution and trafficking. We need to look again at how our legislation is framed. The Swedish approach offers us a different framework and model which appears to have been highly effective in Sweden. It has been adapted for use elsewhere and we should consider its use here. I welcome what the Minister said about a timeline for public consultation and consideration of the legislation. I hope we can move forward in a spirit of compromise and in a constructive manner as is the tradition in this House and since we are all in agreement on how to address this issue.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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With the agreement of the House I wish to share my time with my colleague, Senator Cullinane.

Photo of Susan O'KeeffeSusan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome this motion by the Taoiseach's nominees. This is a very important issue. It is disturbing that tonight and every night, people who have been trafficked will be exploited. The measures in the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 have not been sufficient. The purchase of sex is not a criminal offence and this leads to trafficking. Other Senators have spoken about the Swedish legislation. Senator Bacik has explained that it is not just a case of introducing legislation and she noted that other initiatives are undertaken apart from legislative measures. As a result in Sweden there is a compliance level of 80%. The reduction was from one in eight men in Sweden purchasing sex to one in 40. This illustrates that because it becomes a criminal offence, this causes a change in behaviour and this is what we should consider.

There is an argument that prostitution involves free will, that it is a transaction between two consenting adults. This is an argument made by those who, for reasons difficult to comprehend, try to legitimise or rationalise what happens. It might be the oldest profession but that does not mean it is a noble profession. The women involved are forced into this work, either through personal circumstances or trauma or because of addiction or for economic reasons. Trafficked people are fooled into the work and their very freedom is taken away when their passports are confiscated and they are prisoners in this country, for all intents and purposes.

On another issue, people are also being trafficked for the harvesting of organs. This is an issue which the Minister for Health will deal with in the future. The modern-day version of slavery is where people are being used for sex or for work in sweatshops as is the case in other jurisdictions. The fact before us is that the exploiters are not criminalised and if the Swedish policy were adopted it would produce a change in behaviour.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister to the House and more than that I welcome his contribution to the debate. I commend the Government amendment. The Leader said it was a conciliatory amendment but it is also action-driven which is important. My party will support the Government amendment for those reasons. The amendment commits the Government to a planned public consultation exercise, a detailed discussion paper and a report on the outcome of the consultation process will then be published. Examination of the Swedish model will form part of any review, and the consultation process will be conducted as quickly as possible. I agree with the Minister's statement that the consultation process must be, and be seen to be, objective, transparent, open-minded and fair. The motion that was tabled by the Independent Senators contains a paragraph that commits us to introducing legislation criminalising the purchase of sex in Ireland in order to curb prostitution and trafficking for sexual exploitation. If we were to support that, it would prejudice the outcome of any consultation process. I hope there will not be a vote and that we can support the very good Government amendment.

The Minister mentioned the fact that reasonable people can disagree. My party does have concerns about the Swedish model, not because of any impact it might have on people who purchase sex but because of the potential impact on people who work in the industry - I do not like using that phrase, but it is one that is often used. The Minister cited the UN report that spoke about the potential for criminalisation to backfire on sex workers and drive the whole industry further underground. There are real concerns that have been expressed not only in the 2011 UN report, but in a number of other reports that considered the Swedish model and the criminalisation model. We need to deal robustly with trafficking, which we can all agree is something that needs to be strongly challenged by the Government, with proper sanctions and enforcement. That is the area that needs the most attention, in my view. I support the Government amendment.

Photo of Mary Ann O'BrienMary Ann O'Brien (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the House and for his obvious commitment and comforting words. If I was one of the very dangerous organised criminals who are obviously at the top of the pile, profiteering from these vulnerable and frightened people, I would be pretty happy because I would have another 12 months at least to continue to profiteer. A lot of what I was going to say has been said, so I will shorten my speech a little. The Minister listed the measures he intends to take, including robust legislation and a national action plan. Senator Bacik made reference to education. It really worried me, listening to Paul Maguire today, to hear that the purchase of sex in this country seems to have become normal and accepted. Nineteen year olds are purchasing sex. We all know who we think purchases sex, but 19 year old boys? We seriously have a problem. We do not need legislation for this; we need to ask the Minister for Education and Skills to come to the House, because this is a social problem and we need to start thinking about how to educate our young people immediately. Obviously, this will be a long process. This is something that was done in Sweden as well as the introduction of legislation. I urge the Minister to pass this on to the Minister for Education and Skills and ask him to join forces with his own Department, which I know is very busy. We need to make sure we educate all our young people to show them this is not a way for us to live or to treat other human beings.

I ask the Minister, and everyone who is sitting here this evening or watching the monitors, to close their eyes and imagine their son, daughter, nephew, niece, brother, sister or good friend being in this situation. It could have happened to any of us. I feel so fortunate, so enclosed, so nurtured to be in this beautiful House so far away from these people, who are yet so close to us. They are 20 minutes from us. I really respected the Minister's speech and was so comforted by him. I know the European Presidency is coming up, but we must find the time to give protection to these vulnerable and desperately frightened people who are all over this country.

I will pick up on a point made by Senator Cummins. I appreciate that we have targeted law enforcement out there trying to help these people. Paul Maguire was here today at lunchtime. Only recently he was up in Dundalk filming two women who are in this awful work. Only 55 minutes after he had filmed them in an apartment, there was a raid by the police, who arrested the women. They were dragged to the police station and down to court and were bailed out by their pimp, who produced himself as a friend. He moved them from Dundalk to Christchurch and within a day they were back at work, seeing 15 clients the same night. They have to report their whereabouts to the Garda every week, so every week they go back to Dundalk and are made to lie that they are living there. Their English is not great. They are moving to Christchurch, down the country and to the west. These people have no sense of where they are. The Garda has no hope when it is the women they are targeting and not the clever, brilliant, dangerous, desperate criminals that the Minister is up against.

If we do adopt part of the Swedish model and impose small fines on the people who buy sex, this might be a way for the Minister's people and the Garda to find a way towards the dangerous drug-running criminals. I listened to what Senator Norris said, and we do not want to hurt the families of those clients, but the clients represent another way to find and identify the men who are at the top of this sordid and horrible situation that we find ourselves in.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Mooney.

I welcome the Minister to the House and welcome his words. None of us can expect to dictate his precise point of view on the issues, but we appreciate his ongoing commitment to debating this issue personally with us in the House and to hearing what the House has to say. The Minister is an ideas person and he is clearly taking a considered approach to this issue. I welcome his commitment to maximum consultation and eventual publication of the report. That is important and it is to the Minister's credit.

We have moved on since the last time this debate took place. I give credit to the Taoiseach's nominees, who introduced this motion. In the previous Seanad I tabled certain amendments to the human trafficking Bill to deal with the problem of trafficking and the need to criminalise the purchasers of sex. When I introduced a Private Members' motion on the issue, I had to deal with a certain cynicism in the corridors of power. I remember one senior Minister saying, when I asked for support for the proposition that we introduce legislation according to the Swedish model, that there were young students making a few quid by going into prostitution. I remember thinking what a glib and laddish assertion that was, and how far removed it was from the reality of the lives of people in prostitution - people who have been trafficked, who are often subject to violence, who can be raped with impunity, who do not have any friends or contacts and who may not even have the language to reach out for the necessary help. Some of this horror was brought out in the film "Trafficked", which some of us saw a few years ago.

The issue with regard to the criminalisation of the purchase of sex has to do, in part, with helping to make this country a cold house for traffickers, as I have said before. However, it also has to do with an honest assessment of what prostitution itself does to individuals and what it does to a society. The Minister himself mentioned, with great sensitivity, that this is an extremely old problem. He is right to say that, but often that can be allowed as an excuse not to tackle a problem. Incest is also an extremely old problem; sadly, the laws against incest do not prevent it from happening. We are always limited in our ability to reach, through the criminal law, the evils in our midst but we should be in no doubt that where a person engages in the purchase of another human being, he or she is committing a violence against the dignity of that person and against society in general. He or she is undermining the kind of healthy egalitarian attitudes we need to promote between men and women.

What we heard today, thanks to Paul Maguire, was particularly chilling. I give credit to the media for their role in this issue. They have been subject to legitimate criticism in recent times but this is one of the areas in which it has done us a service. It was particularly chilling to hear that among those using and abusing persons in prostitution are people as young as 19, 20 or 21 years of age. That points to a radical individualism in our society, which is a problem, and perhaps even an allergy to any consideration of the moral issues around sexual morality, in particular. Perhaps because of the excesses of, and the wrong way we went about discussing some of these issues in the past, there is almost a free for all now. That is very troubling when one thinks of the impact of it.

I pay tribute again to all those involved. Tribute has rightly been paid to Ruhama. I regret the reference to sex workers which would tempt me to oppose the Government's amendment. It should at least be in inverted commas. It is a sanitisation of something that is highly unacceptable. However, this is a great improvement on the previous Government amendment and I hope the next time we have a debate, there will be nothing at all offensive in the Government's amendment.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his presentation. I agree with him that it is right that, irrespective of the wording of this laudable motion, he should await the outcome of the consultative process.

I was particularly pleased he made reference, without an over-emphasis, to what has been generally referred to as the Swedish model as if it was somehow the panacea to all of this. I have done some limited investigation on the Swedish model which suggests that while great strides have been made since the 1999 legislation and while there is a cultural change, in particular among men, in the sense that the rate of usage of prostitutes is significantly lower, prostitution has not gone away in Sweden. In fact, it is still operating. It is no wonder it is called the oldest profession in the world.

One of the things in which I would be particularly interested from an Irish perspective is the support services provided while prostitution continues. I know it is against the law but other jurisdictions have taken not so much a liberal approach to this but a humane one and have accepted the reality of it. I am not sure what the support services are but I am referring to health services, drop-in centres and such like.

I refer to the victims of trafficking. As the Minister said, under the law prostitutes can be, and are, legally sanctioned. Are there any provisions in the Minister's discussions to encourage those who are trafficked to come forward and to be of assistance to the Garda? Perhaps this is already being done but I am not aware of it. Perhaps it is being done under the radar.

In the context of the experience of other countries, if the law was more humane towards those who were trafficked, they would be encouraged to name and shame those who trafficked them, took their passports and whatever else and to assist the legal agencies here to prosecute those people. Those are the sorts of issues in which I am particularly interested.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. I listened to almost all of the debate and I feel a little bit inadequate in addressing the issue given the poignancy and the power of the contributions made. I will reiterate some of the points because they are so important. I compliment the Independent Senators on bringing forward this motion so quickly. I thought we had just debated this issue recently. I did not realise it was six months ago so that will tell one how quickly time passes.

I was going to appeal for time from the Minister to do this right because there is no point doing it badly. When one looks at the list of measures in place, including legislative measures, administrative measures and so on, it is clear that this is a very difficult issue to tackle, so we must do it right. The Minister came back with a very fine response. He has taken it on the chin and he has said clearly what he will do. The consultation process will be completed by the end of May, there will be a conference in the autumn and a report by the end of December, or early in the new year at worst. This is good.

I was going to appeal for time for the Independent Senators but when I heard Senator Mary Ann O'Brien's contribution, I said it is not a day too soon. People are eating up our young people and our young people are eating up others. It is abhorrent that 19 year olds are buying sex. There is something wrong with our society if that is acceptable. These norms are wrong. I hope new measures will come out of the consultation process because let us face it, we are looking for something new. Despite all the measures - a national action plan, a high level interdepartmental group, a multi-disciplinary partnership group, awareness raising campaigns, training on the issue of human trafficking for law enforcement, the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) 1993 Act and the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 - prostitution still happens. We are not saying it will completely go away but currently it is rampant.

Young women are being trafficked throughout the country and some are children. There must be a multi-pronged approach between the Departments of Justice and Equality and Education and Skills. There is a place for this in education. We have the relationships and sexuality education curriculum. The education of our young males is critical but so too is that of our young girls because grooming happens when someone is very young. When grooming happens and when there is an incident very early in a young boy's or a young girl's life, some feel unworthy. They are made feel special and they do not have the self-esteem to counteract it. We must include this in the relationship and sexuality education curriculum, certainly at upper primary school level. I know that perhaps this would be controversial and it would have to be done in an age appropriate way but as the Minister said, this is evil and we must decry and abhor it in the strongest terms.

I refer to Garda resources. The Minister pointed to extra resources, which I acknowledge, but is there enough flexibility to respond to the gangs quickly? I spoke to a detective recently who said their hands are often tied. For all crimes, the key time period after the incident is 48 hours but with prostitution and trafficking, it appears to be within an hour of a call to a Garda station.

I could make points about the Swedish model but they have been made by others. The Swedish model appeals to me at one level because the person selling the service is in trouble in any event. I support what Senator van Turnhout said that it is not just an act of self-determination by the prostitute or the person providing the service who is already in trouble as a result of poverty, addiction or mental health issues, who has been the victim of trafficking and violence and who may have had to suffer an abortion as a result of the heinous act. The two-pronged approach of the United Nations is that we deal not only with harm reduction but with harm elimination because we must take care of the public health issues.

It is good that it appears the House has united on this issue. We have many problems but it appears we are united in the decision to deal with this issue seriously and that 2012 is the year to change things for the better. The Minister has the support of the House and I wish him well in the consultations.

Photo of Susan O'KeeffeSusan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his robust response. I pay tribute to the Turn off the Red Light campaign for their perseverance. They have spread the message in a way that people can understand and as Senator Healy Eames said, they remind us that every day the exploitation of women and children continues, that day should not come to pass without some action to deal with it.

When the Swedish Detective Inspector Jonas Trolle was here last year he said that it is now widely seen as shameful and unacceptable to purchase a woman for sex in Sweden. He was speaking in support of the Swedish model and I know there is much confusion and discussion around the success or otherwise of the Swedish model, but he was right about that aspect. It is shameful and unacceptable to purchase a woman for sex. I think no person in this room would disagree with that. It is important for us to remember that is at the core of what we are trying to achieve. Our support for the Minister's work is because we believe this is shameful and unacceptable.

It is shameful that the culture in Ireland is such that as Senator O'Brien has said, we believe it is kind of acceptable that sex is bought and sold and that equality is not sufficiently embedded. We need to arrive at a point where it is shameful and unacceptable for men to demean women through the purchase of sex. Women are demeaned in more ways than just sexual exploitation because of the trafficking, bullying, the physical and mental violence, not to mention drugs and control and all the other things related to sexual exploitation. We have a job of work to do on the culture and the campaigners in Turn Off the Red Light have started that work. As Senator Bacik said, while there may be debate about whether the legislation in Sweden succeeded in all its intents, it is certainly helped. It was also supported by the role of education. We need to bring education on the issue into this debate and not leave the problem entirely to the Minister for Justice and Equality to try to address a problem that cannot be dealt with by legislation alone. The legislation will always have a flaw, the backdoor.

We need to start to encourage young people to understand that this behaviour is not correct and to encourage those who may be engaged in buying sex to think again. Some classes were run in the UK at the end of the 1990s and the first man who turned up at one of them said he was present for the prostitution school. It had to be pointed out that he was there for the "kerb crawling school", so to speak, because he had forgotten that he was responsible as a kerb crawler, as a purchaser of sex, and that the day was set aside to discuss with him and other men what had happened and why they had ended up buying sex. We need to start to look at the issue in that light and educate not just those who may end up buying sex but those who are already in the system.

Some years ago, when I worked at the BBC, I had the privilege of working with Ms Irene Iveson, a physiotherapist who worked in Nottingham, whose 14 year old daughter was murdered in a car park. Irene did not know that her daughter was a prostitute. She had been working for three weeks when she was killed. Irene Iveson, very bravely decided to turn what could only have been described as an appalling experience into something positive and she started to work on educating people and helping them to understand this behaviour and also to encourage the outlawing of kerb crawling. Unfortunately, Irene Iveson is no longer with us, but when I worked with her, we went to Glasgow to visit a number of prostitutes. It is fair to say that even though we spoke to a small number of women, only eight or nine, every one of them would have wished their lives to be different. None was there voluntarily. They felt demeaned and they all spoke about the fear of violence. When Irene spoke of her daughter having been murdered, they too were able to come forward and tell their stories much more freely because they knew that Irene understood them.

We also met Ms Fiona Broadfoot, who still works with an organisation called EXIT and advises the British Government. Fiona was a prostitute who came out of prostitution and set up an organisation to encourage other women to find ways out of it. Implementation of the legislation must be supported by work in other areas. I do not think the Independent Senators believe we can rely solely on legislation. The more times we raise the matter and discuss the wider and broader aspects of this, the more we realise that Irish society has not faced up to the cold realities of what prostitution means to women and children and to the men who purchase sex. We have a collective responsibility to act in the interests of society. We look to the legislation only in the first instance but we realise that much work remains to be done. I commend the Independent Senators on tabling this motion and urging the matter on. I thank the Minister for his continued and clear dedication to the matter.

Photo of Aideen HaydenAideen Hayden (Labour)
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I was heartened by the Minister's speech. He has raised a number of very important points. We in this House must ask ourselves why we are here today. We are here because the Minister made a commitment that was not adhered to. Ministers who come to the Seanad will be much more cautious about giving commitments to Members than they were in the past. The lesson is that if a Minister finds himself or herself where he or she is not able to adhere to a commitment then he or she might warn the House in advance of that failure and request more time to deal with it.

I read the literature on trafficking and prostitution and the previous statements of various Senators. I found myself in agreement with the intentions that Senators outlined in their statements. I do not think that anybody would disagree. We are all ad idem on the evils of trafficking and prostitution but there is lack of balance in the debate. The focus is on the criminalisation of the purchase of sex but very little attention is given to the social and economic reasons that people engage in prostitution. We should give this some attention during the consultation process. I am sure Senators are aware of the radio interviews on this subject that have taken place in the past number of months. One interview stood out, where a woman who had difficulties paying her mortgage on the family home engaged in prostitution to pay the bills. Unfortunately, the situation came across over the airwaves as both very sad but to some extent as risk free, when she explained to the audience how she managed her business of prostitution. I find it somewhat misleading to the public that most women, or boys and men who engage in prostitution do it because they are poor, by and large, poorly educated or perhaps have drug problems. The way the problem is presented in recent times is not indicative of the social issues around prostitution. The fate of the former managing director of the IMF, Mr. Dominique Strauss-Kahn has not helped in the exposure of the realities of prostitution for most people in Irish society.

I suggest that we need to look at the economic and social issues around prostitution, but I disagree with some of the comment on the lack of need to look at the legal aspect of the issue. An issue close to my heart is the Matrimonial Home Bill 1993, which was struck down on a referral to the President. That legislation sought to equalise the property playing field for women. After it was struck down similar legislation has failed to see the light of day. I would warn those who say we should rush to deal with this issue that we should not. We need to have robust, carefully thought out and very clearly examined legislation. I would not like to see this very worthy piece of legislation face the same fate as the Matrimonial Home Bill.

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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This has been a thoughtful and reflective debate. I want to begin by thanking all Senators for their contributions, including those who might be at odds with what we propose and those who are with us.

At the end of the Minister's speech I was reminded of a theory I studied when doing some graduate work in number of years ago, namely ethical education. We studied the theory that there are two kinds of people, those who are open-minded and those who are of closed minds. As ethical educators we try to encourage those young people we work with who might appear to be of closed minds to move towards open-mindedness. With the Minister's speech and reflection he demonstrated himself to be a man who has a character of open-mindedness and is not afraid of a diversity of views. I hope we can promise we are not either. As Senator Hayden said, in putting forward the motion we have acknowledged it is important to have a wide-ranging, public, informed debate and hear a diversity of views.

As part of that, evidence, critical analysis, stories, ethical principles and legal analysis will surface. The best judgment from the Government will come through a discernment on the basis of all of that. One can only do that if one is open-minded. It will lead towards, as the Minister stated in his speech, something that will be sensible, comprehensive and effective. I am certain the Minister will agree with the remarks of many of Senators that while this is not only about law it does concern law and reform is required.

On the basis of the items in the Government amendment to our motion, as outlined by Senators Bradford and Cummins, the commitments of the Minister to us outlined in his speech on the publication of a report, an approximate time frame - we appreciate the need to be flexible and heard the words of Senator O'Brien - and his promise to come back to us to debate this issue we will not press for a vote.

We will come together on this issue. We appreciate the Minister's workload. I wonder if there is anything we can do to help share in that. I can promise-----

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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That is a risky offer.

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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We promise to listen to all sides and all aspects of the debate. I again thank the Minister for his comments and appreciate him coming before the House today.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

Photo of Paschal MooneyPaschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the presence of the Nobel prizewinner Seamus Heaney who was in the Visitors Gallery when the last contribution was being made with our colleague, Senator Crown. When is it proposed to sit again?

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Ar 10.30 a.m. maidin amárach.